Ask HN: Do you have inspiring spontaneous conversations while remote working?
97 comments
No.
We tried having daily "tea break" calls and weekly "Friday drinks" calls, but attendance was so low that we just cancelled them.
Amongst people who were already friendly we still have private group chats in our work Slack, but the number of conversations is obviously far lower than when you're all in the kitchen making breakfast or tea in the morning.
We had a conversation about why the daily and weekly open conversation calls weren't working, and the resounding answer was they they felt like enforced fun. It's just not the same as meeting someone in a corridor or on a smoke break or in the kitchen.
We tried having daily "tea break" calls and weekly "Friday drinks" calls, but attendance was so low that we just cancelled them.
Amongst people who were already friendly we still have private group chats in our work Slack, but the number of conversations is obviously far lower than when you're all in the kitchen making breakfast or tea in the morning.
We had a conversation about why the daily and weekly open conversation calls weren't working, and the resounding answer was they they felt like enforced fun. It's just not the same as meeting someone in a corridor or on a smoke break or in the kitchen.
Same.
I've worked at my current company over five years and have been a really strong IC. I used to talk to lots of people in the office from many various teams and backgrounds. Now I only talk to my lead and a handful of others.
Work drags on every day and feels inhuman. It never "ends" now. I don't find any joy or satisfaction in it. I hate this, and I don't know how much longer I can put up with it.
I don't even use our product. The thing that kept me happy and productive was the other people. Now that's gone.
I need a sabbatical. WFH is awful. I'm so burnt out.
I've worked at my current company over five years and have been a really strong IC. I used to talk to lots of people in the office from many various teams and backgrounds. Now I only talk to my lead and a handful of others.
Work drags on every day and feels inhuman. It never "ends" now. I don't find any joy or satisfaction in it. I hate this, and I don't know how much longer I can put up with it.
I don't even use our product. The thing that kept me happy and productive was the other people. Now that's gone.
I need a sabbatical. WFH is awful. I'm so burnt out.
That is sad to hear. By any chance do you live with others. I thankfully have my wife and two kids which helped, though I just moved from LA to SC, because it was so draconian. We have already talked to more neighbors in 5 days living here than we did in years living in LA. Point being the isolation is much less here because people all walk in the neighborhood and actually say hello and mean it. They don't in LA. But, I too am missing interactions at work terribly.
What is a strong IC? What does the abbreviation stand for?
Also I feel compassion for your situation. Isolation is a serious issue and could contribute to symptoms of depression.
In my case, WFH is godsend... I have multiple zoom conversations with colleagues every day and always find time for less formal, human exchanges which contribute to the sense of connection.
Also I feel compassion for your situation. Isolation is a serious issue and could contribute to symptoms of depression.
In my case, WFH is godsend... I have multiple zoom conversations with colleagues every day and always find time for less formal, human exchanges which contribute to the sense of connection.
Individual Contributor
I schedule my team a weekly zoom ‘group hug’, where we just basically take a break for 30 minutes and talk about our pets or various desk tchotchkes (which I think are important to have some small objects that can provide temporary joy).
It can be a bit awkward at some times, but it seems to be a nice change.
It can be a bit awkward at some times, but it seems to be a nice change.
That sounds awful. I felt similarly for the first few months of WFH, but I think that was because I had it in my head that WFH was temporary. I've now accepted (and been told as much by management) that WFH is going to be the norm going forward.
I obviously don't need as much human interaction as you or other people I work with, because we have a system which allows a small number of people into the office per day if they want to work in the office, and it's always the same people. I haven't availed of it once.
I think all this is just showing what a lot of people already knew: the one-size-fits-all 9-5 way of working really didn't work for everyone. The company I work for (Arm) have been really great about the whole situation in accommodating people's different circumstances and I'm hopeful for the future.
I obviously don't need as much human interaction as you or other people I work with, because we have a system which allows a small number of people into the office per day if they want to work in the office, and it's always the same people. I haven't availed of it once.
I think all this is just showing what a lot of people already knew: the one-size-fits-all 9-5 way of working really didn't work for everyone. The company I work for (Arm) have been really great about the whole situation in accommodating people's different circumstances and I'm hopeful for the future.
I've been working remotely for 13 years now. I do have a desk at the office, although I rarely go in. The only thing I miss is seeing some of the great people every day. Prior to the pandemic, many of us still talked remotely every day. But, that rarely happens now. More on that in a moment.
The worst thing about WFH during a pandemic is that one of the major things that kept me sane for the past 13 years was being able to go work at a local coffee shop or co-working space when I needed to get out of the house -- but none of those places have tables right now so that's off the table (sorry). On a side note, my kids and wife are around the house all day now, which should be from a social standpoint, and it is to a point, but it's terrible for concentration and it's a little too much time together when everyone tries to maintain their pre-pandemic expectations (hard for kids not to).
I'm not complaining though, my point is simply that WFH isn't normally this bad and cannot be judged fairly during a pandemic. I used to start working when I woke up very early in the morning and stop working around 330pm. Now, between helping my kids with their School from home work, and other family related interruptions, the workday never ends.
Many of my coworkers are in the same boat. Those who don't have kids are still anxious because their wonderful life is mostly shutdown too. Everyone is more stressed, more anxious, more irritable, and these feelings are the opposite of what WFH normally feels like.
The worst thing about WFH during a pandemic is that one of the major things that kept me sane for the past 13 years was being able to go work at a local coffee shop or co-working space when I needed to get out of the house -- but none of those places have tables right now so that's off the table (sorry). On a side note, my kids and wife are around the house all day now, which should be from a social standpoint, and it is to a point, but it's terrible for concentration and it's a little too much time together when everyone tries to maintain their pre-pandemic expectations (hard for kids not to).
I'm not complaining though, my point is simply that WFH isn't normally this bad and cannot be judged fairly during a pandemic. I used to start working when I woke up very early in the morning and stop working around 330pm. Now, between helping my kids with their School from home work, and other family related interruptions, the workday never ends.
Many of my coworkers are in the same boat. Those who don't have kids are still anxious because their wonderful life is mostly shutdown too. Everyone is more stressed, more anxious, more irritable, and these feelings are the opposite of what WFH normally feels like.
I have noticed that the “unstructured conversation” calls are super awkward and stall out after a few minutes, but playing online party games together (Among Us, Codenames, Skribbl, etc) has been a stronger background on which we have actually conversations.
-> "Friday drinks" calls, but attendance was so low that we just cancelled them.
We have a 15 minute mandatory weekly review to start - it’s quite common for the session to last three hours.
We have a 15 minute mandatory weekly review to start - it’s quite common for the session to last three hours.
Interestingly enough, I find were having more of these conversations working remotely than we did in the office. I think part of it is that using MS Teams other people are a lot more accessible, just drop into the chat and leave a message. If they are busy no probs, if they aren't then they will reply and we talk about whatever. Sick of typing, drop into a voice or video chat. Want to talk work, then it's easy to share a screen. A lot easier than looking at a screen over somebodies shoulder.
Whilst I do miss going out for a coffee or some such, I'm finding that I'm actually enjoying the social side of working remotely a lot more than the forced socialisation that was occurring physically in the office.
Whilst I do miss going out for a coffee or some such, I'm finding that I'm actually enjoying the social side of working remotely a lot more than the forced socialisation that was occurring physically in the office.
I hope the “social side” of working remotely is kept to a minimum. Work socialization in the office led to some rich real-world friendships, but if the endgame of getting to know someone on a video call is just to have more video calls... gross. Remote meetings are such revolting experiences, it’s important that they be used as rarely as possible and with ironclad justification of business necessity for every second they drag on.
I don't really agree with this, but accepting it for the sake of argument, then it suggests to me that remote work needs to take up less time so that people have more time to make friends outside of work, since they're going to have fewer friends at work.
Interesting point. Thx
I was sharing an office with my co-worker; we work together on the same topic and that was ok. But interesting conversations? Not happening at all. In the end, we're no friends or no particularly good team. Moving to remote work allows us to cut that bullshit quite effectively.
I'm now working remotely, but sharing an office together with friends (we're hanging out together anyways, so still makes sense in terms of isolating). We have lots of conversations, help each other and give spontaneous lightning talks on how to use $tool better.
I think having people around you is important, people that encourage and help you develop yourself.
I'm now working remotely, but sharing an office together with friends (we're hanging out together anyways, so still makes sense in terms of isolating). We have lots of conversations, help each other and give spontaneous lightning talks on how to use $tool better.
I think having people around you is important, people that encourage and help you develop yourself.
> 1. Do you miss these conversations?
I worked as a contractor in the office and never really thought about it. Like I had conversations with people in the break roomwhere they know me maybe because they see me talking to my boss but I don't know who they are or what they do. Or I overhear people talking about their work and I got to catch a glimpse of what they do (I wrote internal web applications they used so this was useful information to me).
I'll never admit this, of course. I don't like being in the office. I'd rather work from home forever. I think all I'm missing is a decent fiber gigabit (symmetric up and down) connection (for me and everyone else) and I should be good.
I worked as a contractor in the office and never really thought about it. Like I had conversations with people in the break roomwhere they know me maybe because they see me talking to my boss but I don't know who they are or what they do. Or I overhear people talking about their work and I got to catch a glimpse of what they do (I wrote internal web applications they used so this was useful information to me).
I'll never admit this, of course. I don't like being in the office. I'd rather work from home forever. I think all I'm missing is a decent fiber gigabit (symmetric up and down) connection (for me and everyone else) and I should be good.
What do you do to need a symmetric 1Gbps connection?
I have 150/150Mbps which seems more than sufficient - I upgraded from 30/1Mbps because the uplink could be a bit painful pushing databases or container images around, not because I needed 150 (symmetric 30 not an option).
I have 150/150Mbps which seems more than sufficient - I upgraded from 30/1Mbps because the uplink could be a bit painful pushing databases or container images around, not because I needed 150 (symmetric 30 not an option).
> I have 150/150Mbps which seems more than sufficient
Yes, that should be sufficient if you consistently get the advertised rates. Comcast (and all coaxial cable spectrum/cox/...) infrastructure, from what I understand is in a very poor condition due to neglect and even their "gigabit" is actually gigabit down / 30mbps up at best. and then there's over subscription. Try having everyone in your household on different video conference call.
My understanding is once you get fiber installed to the home, the difference in ongoing expense of 150Mbps vs gigabit is not that much. So might as well?
Yes, that should be sufficient if you consistently get the advertised rates. Comcast (and all coaxial cable spectrum/cox/...) infrastructure, from what I understand is in a very poor condition due to neglect and even their "gigabit" is actually gigabit down / 30mbps up at best. and then there's over subscription. Try having everyone in your household on different video conference call.
My understanding is once you get fiber installed to the home, the difference in ongoing expense of 150Mbps vs gigabit is not that much. So might as well?
I get consistently a bit more than that, about 165/160Mbps (as measured by fast.com).
That's fair - it's just me - I just read it as work needing a gigabit, not the Netflix/games/whatever use of the family hogging it.
I'm not in the USA, so 'YMMV', but the home came with fibre, and the ongoing cost is £35 vs. £60 (the 30/1 plan was £22, and - as I check these prices - is now 50/5).
(Interested Britons - Hyperoptic; prices after introductory discount year. Cannot fault on price or speed or service (when available), only -ve has been downtime for scheduled maintenance overnight from 11pm.)
That's fair - it's just me - I just read it as work needing a gigabit, not the Netflix/games/whatever use of the family hogging it.
I'm not in the USA, so 'YMMV', but the home came with fibre, and the ongoing cost is £35 vs. £60 (the 30/1 plan was £22, and - as I check these prices - is now 50/5).
(Interested Britons - Hyperoptic; prices after introductory discount year. Cannot fault on price or speed or service (when available), only -ve has been downtime for scheduled maintenance overnight from 11pm.)
1) Not applicable because I was remote before the pandemic
2) Yes, and I have A LOT. Predicate- I’m the tech lead, so it helps I can set team culture. However, here are some things that help- a) pick up the phone after the 3rd IM. Instant messaging and Teams/slack channels are great, but they partially eliminate the spontaneity you are talking about. If I’m more than 3 messages into the conversation, I pick up the phone and call (if both parties can talk). And once the immediate problem is over I don’t hang up. I ask how things are going, ask about family, tell them I have this cool new idea, etc. It builds trust and pretty quickly we get to feel comfortable bouncing ideas off each other.
b) I’ve expanded my network via shared interests. I run a “app development” book club. I run a series of meetings where people do a quick presentation on their non work passions and then we chat. I volunteer for side projects and charity work. All this is remote. And, importantly, I follow up with people I find interesting for 1-1s.
C) I consider the time spent in A and B just as much a part of my job as writing code or managing the backlog. It turns out, being on-site generates a lot of unplanned and invisible work- those talks in the kitchen, the pre and post meeting jokes and follow ups, the afterwork drinks. That all is WORK. Fun work, but also unplanned and untracked work. Going remote reduces the amount those activities happen, so you have to become more conscious about making time for it. People new to remote working (myself included) will often feel guilty about doing socialization activities in a deliberate manner (like purposefully making small talk after a call) even if they really think about or measure their time spent the amount they are engaged in those activities are way down. Don’t feel guilty for “slacking” with you coworkers. It’s actually part of the job.
Note- I do work slightly longer hours than I did before going remote, but I feel it’s more than made up for by time spent commuting or at volun-obligatory happy hours and events.
Oh, one last thing- try to keep ad how meetings to 4 or less people. You couldn’t fit that many in your office, but it’s almost impossible to socially engage with more than that on a video call.
2) Yes, and I have A LOT. Predicate- I’m the tech lead, so it helps I can set team culture. However, here are some things that help- a) pick up the phone after the 3rd IM. Instant messaging and Teams/slack channels are great, but they partially eliminate the spontaneity you are talking about. If I’m more than 3 messages into the conversation, I pick up the phone and call (if both parties can talk). And once the immediate problem is over I don’t hang up. I ask how things are going, ask about family, tell them I have this cool new idea, etc. It builds trust and pretty quickly we get to feel comfortable bouncing ideas off each other.
b) I’ve expanded my network via shared interests. I run a “app development” book club. I run a series of meetings where people do a quick presentation on their non work passions and then we chat. I volunteer for side projects and charity work. All this is remote. And, importantly, I follow up with people I find interesting for 1-1s.
C) I consider the time spent in A and B just as much a part of my job as writing code or managing the backlog. It turns out, being on-site generates a lot of unplanned and invisible work- those talks in the kitchen, the pre and post meeting jokes and follow ups, the afterwork drinks. That all is WORK. Fun work, but also unplanned and untracked work. Going remote reduces the amount those activities happen, so you have to become more conscious about making time for it. People new to remote working (myself included) will often feel guilty about doing socialization activities in a deliberate manner (like purposefully making small talk after a call) even if they really think about or measure their time spent the amount they are engaged in those activities are way down. Don’t feel guilty for “slacking” with you coworkers. It’s actually part of the job.
Note- I do work slightly longer hours than I did before going remote, but I feel it’s more than made up for by time spent commuting or at volun-obligatory happy hours and events.
Oh, one last thing- try to keep ad how meetings to 4 or less people. You couldn’t fit that many in your office, but it’s almost impossible to socially engage with more than that on a video call.
No, and I do miss them. The important ones are with people I don't normally have direct interaction with COO, CFO, VPs I can catch then in the kitchen, or on the way to the train to get 1on1 time that is otherwise impossible to get.
There are not that many random conversations in the office normally. Open plan so everyone has headphones on and conversations are via Slack even before Covid.
There are not that many random conversations in the office normally. Open plan so everyone has headphones on and conversations are via Slack even before Covid.
I do remote gamedev with an artist friend. This type of conversation really only happens during long calls. Usually I'd call to discuss a problem and when that's done, we usually stick around some more to chat about random stuff, bounce jokes around until we somehow stumble upon cool ideas.
I think what makes it work is that since we just finished straining our brains to solve a problem, the relaxed post-discussion time helps refresh the brain and allows for fresh ideas to subconsciously come in.
I think what makes it work is that since we just finished straining our brains to solve a problem, the relaxed post-discussion time helps refresh the brain and allows for fresh ideas to subconsciously come in.
Exactly this. You can not "force" these sessions, they happen to happen, or not. It takes (a lot of open mic) time to get these things rolling.
It is a number game: more contact, more bouncing.
For about 5 years I ran a worldwide (FPS) tournament with a couple of friends. We never met AFK. It had to work online, or it would not work at all.
This is one reason I always ask potential employees if they encage in online communities. I find it a tremendous plus if people are able to collaborate with "strangers" and without financial dependencies.
It is a number game: more contact, more bouncing.
For about 5 years I ran a worldwide (FPS) tournament with a couple of friends. We never met AFK. It had to work online, or it would not work at all.
This is one reason I always ask potential employees if they encage in online communities. I find it a tremendous plus if people are able to collaborate with "strangers" and without financial dependencies.
Do you have any nuggets of wisdom on coordinating large projects entirely online? Me and my friend still struggles to make significant progress all too often as life stuff comes in once in a while which leads to months-long pauses.
Clear goals, period.
This could be: We like to work on this and there is no deadline.
Or: Forget the details of this exquisite item, but focus on getting it working on date X.
I would not mind the perceived lack of progress in your case but see the journey as the goal. Spending quality time with a friend is about as good as it gets (until there are bills to pay, then make sure you can pay the bills first).
This could be: We like to work on this and there is no deadline.
Or: Forget the details of this exquisite item, but focus on getting it working on date X.
I would not mind the perceived lack of progress in your case but see the journey as the goal. Spending quality time with a friend is about as good as it gets (until there are bills to pay, then make sure you can pay the bills first).
Really helpful! Thanks.
1. No, I don't miss them. Quite the opposite: Having to handle people who constantly felt the need to provide "feedback" and "input" used to be a big distraction, which is now more manageable due to the slightly higher threshold for initiating communication. The ones who seem to miss these "spontaneous conversations" the most is management, who seem to have been told that we should be made to have them. As for the more enjoyable conversations, they may be less spontaneous now, but remote collaboration tools ensure that they're still possible.
At the office, we usually had such spontaneous conversations around lunchtime, and they were sometimes work-related and sometimes not.
2. From time to time. When I want to talk to someone, I use one of our remote communication tools to have a text chat with them. Some prefer to use a voice chat or telephone call instead. Either way works fine.
At the office, we usually had such spontaneous conversations around lunchtime, and they were sometimes work-related and sometimes not.
2. From time to time. When I want to talk to someone, I use one of our remote communication tools to have a text chat with them. Some prefer to use a voice chat or telephone call instead. Either way works fine.
Get used to async chatting in the general channel... in text. That will solve your problem.
No, it won't ... maybe you meant this as a joke?
I have been a professional developer for 20 years, 10 of those remote. He is right. If people learn how to work and communicate through async text, you can come up with ideas, exchange thoughts quite easily. Problem is, most people love to hear themselves talk so dismiss ways where they aren't the 'center of attention'. I would say in 20 years, less than 5% of the 'meetings' or 'coffee chats' couldn't have been done through slack/irc/whatever.
Async is the keyword here. Have several text channels, some with a specific topic, some more random. Get people used to posting in them and reading them once in a while. Get people used to move to one on ones and/or ad hoc small group chats when they have something to say.
Yeah, just like irc. What do you think Slack is modeled on?
And just to make myself more hated, cut the scheduled meetings down. If everyone is spamming status in #general (or #status or whatever) you don't really need them.
Oh and, like the parent poster, been doing this for at least 15 out of the last 20 years.
Yeah, just like irc. What do you think Slack is modeled on?
And just to make myself more hated, cut the scheduled meetings down. If everyone is spamming status in #general (or #status or whatever) you don't really need them.
Oh and, like the parent poster, been doing this for at least 15 out of the last 20 years.
Maybe that works when you have thousands of users like here in hn. I don't see much value in it with a team of 6 people.
Remember when email was the internet's killer app?
& all those open source mailing list threads have done plenty of work. Not to forget their IRC channels
& all those open source mailing list threads have done plenty of work. Not to forget their IRC channels
Plain-text email with a well-admin’ed listserv, yes!
Yes, it will. In asynchronous conversations, there is time to think. But with in-person conversations, people feel an imperative to fill gaps with talking. The result is either that (a) you are talking without having the benefit of pre-thought, or (b) someone else is, which makes it impossible for you to think.
Don't believe so. Its the digital analogy of small talk with opt-in (read: IRC) :-)
The Linux kernel and most other open source projects have primarily been built by fully remote teams. But every few days there’s a thread full of people wringing their hands about how there’s no way to do spontaneous, creative, collaborative work remotely.
What you say is true, but I think there's often a detail missing from these conversations: culture.
What I mean is that OP's question and your answer both have a context which isn't always explicit in these conversations.
The Linux kernel development, and I would argue most successful remote shops, have had a "remote first" culture from the beginning, or, if remote was something that came up later, have had a change in culture.
My client, for example, has a culture where people would just drop in and ask random questions. Or you would overhear people talking about something and you'd jump in. During lockdown, this wasn't possible anymore. So they would start having meetings among "stakeholders", which, in the above story would be the people initially in the conversation, and reach some sort of decision. The other people wouldn't be able to jump in during the conversation. They could of course argue with the decision, but sometimes they'd find out about it "too late".
Contrast this with a culture where everything is done in public, for everyone to see and with a possibility for everyone to intervene during the discussion, as is the case on the LKML or as I suppose is the case in a remote-first company. There would be discussions say on slack or some other communication tool where even people not directly invited could at least have a look and see what's emerging.
I think that those people "wringing their hands about how there’s no way to do spontaneous, creative, collaborative work remotely" are people used to working in in-person cultures. Not only that, but it's very likely that the companies where they work are very "in-person" companies and that those companies have a hard time adapting to the remote way of doing things. It's not enough that some people would try to make this work. For this to actually work, there has to be a serious change in how the company itself works.
What I mean is that OP's question and your answer both have a context which isn't always explicit in these conversations.
The Linux kernel development, and I would argue most successful remote shops, have had a "remote first" culture from the beginning, or, if remote was something that came up later, have had a change in culture.
My client, for example, has a culture where people would just drop in and ask random questions. Or you would overhear people talking about something and you'd jump in. During lockdown, this wasn't possible anymore. So they would start having meetings among "stakeholders", which, in the above story would be the people initially in the conversation, and reach some sort of decision. The other people wouldn't be able to jump in during the conversation. They could of course argue with the decision, but sometimes they'd find out about it "too late".
Contrast this with a culture where everything is done in public, for everyone to see and with a possibility for everyone to intervene during the discussion, as is the case on the LKML or as I suppose is the case in a remote-first company. There would be discussions say on slack or some other communication tool where even people not directly invited could at least have a look and see what's emerging.
I think that those people "wringing their hands about how there’s no way to do spontaneous, creative, collaborative work remotely" are people used to working in in-person cultures. Not only that, but it's very likely that the companies where they work are very "in-person" companies and that those companies have a hard time adapting to the remote way of doing things. It's not enough that some people would try to make this work. For this to actually work, there has to be a serious change in how the company itself works.
In your example company, I think remote work may have been the catalyst for the change you’re talking about in the specific case. But what if they’d introduced some other small change that had nothing to do with remote work like moving the conference rooms to the other side of the building so that people not in a conference couldn’t easily tell there was a meeting going on. Each time the environment changes, new building, new project etc... we don’t think it’s necessary to have had a different culture from the beginning or to completely remake the culture from the ground up. We just make the appropriate changes.
Culture has to adapt to the environment. There’s nothing special about it being remote.
If you have an open office and everyone is constantly having loud, impromptu meetings in the same space, that’s just as much of a problem.
Culture has to adapt to the environment. There’s nothing special about it being remote.
If you have an open office and everyone is constantly having loud, impromptu meetings in the same space, that’s just as much of a problem.
In my example I wasn't talking about formal meetings in conference rooms, but exchanges between people in the same office space. There's always a tendency for people to ask what's been decided in the meeting right after it ends when they weren't present. This could be reproduced in a remote environment. Indeed, I think the minutes from the meeting should be published, even in an in-person office.
> Culture has to adapt to the environment. There’s nothing special about it being remote.
I totally agree with you. The only issue is that this adaptation may take some time. In my client's example, this was considered a temporary thing. Most people were switched to part-time, etc. I think they merely considered the remote thing as a bump in the road, and this situation may be pretty common among companies affected by shelter in place directives.
I think people may be surprised by the sudden change, and they are looking for ways to adapt. In the beginning, they will try to reproduce what they were doing before, which, of course, may not work as well. Which contributes to their frustration. I don't think that if they were forced to stay remote for a long time (some six months to a year at least) they would continue trying to fit the square peg in a hole that's become round. Maybe some would, but I'm hopeful that a sufficient number of people would try to adapt so as the change the surrounding culture.
> Culture has to adapt to the environment. There’s nothing special about it being remote.
I totally agree with you. The only issue is that this adaptation may take some time. In my client's example, this was considered a temporary thing. Most people were switched to part-time, etc. I think they merely considered the remote thing as a bump in the road, and this situation may be pretty common among companies affected by shelter in place directives.
I think people may be surprised by the sudden change, and they are looking for ways to adapt. In the beginning, they will try to reproduce what they were doing before, which, of course, may not work as well. Which contributes to their frustration. I don't think that if they were forced to stay remote for a long time (some six months to a year at least) they would continue trying to fit the square peg in a hole that's become round. Maybe some would, but I'm hopeful that a sufficient number of people would try to adapt so as the change the surrounding culture.
Speaking of this, studies of open source projects have also shown that the primary barrier to communication is organisational distance (i.e. how far up the chain of command you have to go until you have a manager in common) and not physical distance.
(Personal hypothesis: this is probably more of an issue with the type of organisation that values a hierarchical departmental layout inspired by the industrial revolution, instead of smaller Toyota production system-style teams.)
(Personal hypothesis: this is probably more of an issue with the type of organisation that values a hierarchical departmental layout inspired by the industrial revolution, instead of smaller Toyota production system-style teams.)
Yes. But only with the people I already had these kinds of conversations before. It's also important to note that the quantity and quality of those moments have decreased. The reason being you are not sharing as much time a day with them as before.
I've not been having these conversations since covid, and yes I miss them a lot. I prefer to flesh out ideas by kicking them around with others, and this is has suffered significantly. I've noticed a real lack of engagement in online communication at work, by others and by me. Personally, I'm bored of online communication having used email since the 90s and seeing it degrade into an ad-hoc workflow mismanagement tool. I suspect others are weary of opening their emails in the morning, too. The surge in online communication due to covid actually makes me more weary, and the dwindling engagement I see in Zoom, Teams etc suggests to me a similar creeping dissatisfaction. When it's feasible, I plan to ditch email other than transactional necessities, and conduct all work interaction by phone or in person. Webcam feels unnatural to me, it's more like being on show than being in a conversation.
You might like https://rambly.app - it’s voice only and spatial; so it’s optimized for natural (concurrent) conversations. The only downside is that it pretty much requires headphones.
Thanks for this. I've noticed a few similar apps/sites mentioned on HN recently that do similar. Time I checked them out.
For me, the spontaneous conversations were always a bit of an annoyance in the office. They seemed to detract from work rather than adding value. This will probably vary from sector to sector - in my sector (finance), I found the adhoc conversations were a distraction, and often ended up on obscure tangents that were rarely useful.
Thanks for reply. It will be interesting to think about how it changes based on occupations.
My intuition tells me you'll get quite different answers from different people, especially introverts vs extroverts.
Most of the good spontaneous conversations I've had at work were previously on Slack anyway, for a couple of reasons:
- You're not interrupting someone / taking up their whole time. If you have a thought, they can wait until they're free to reply, and if you're both free at the same time you can have a good conversation. But you were still able to write out and communicate the thought.
- More people can join and provide input. I can always talk about things with a couple folks on my team, but it's super valuable to have someone from another part of the company pipe up and say "Hey, what about this" without having to consciously think of inviting them (and interrupting them, see the above point - the way to do this in person is to have extremely large "user group" meetings that are low value for their opportunity cost for most of the attendees).
- I can easily find people in other parts of the company / work across teams because teams tend to be in physically separate locations. It's super easy for me to run something past someone who works in the other building; it would take about 10 minutes of my time total to go there and back, and then I'd have to hope they're at their desk.
- This is something of a mixed blessing, but conversations are logged, so you can reference them later. To the example you give about chatting about things after a conference, I tend to write up what I've learned or ideas I've followed on and put them into Slack pretty quickly, with the expectation that we'll have a conversation about them at some later point but not immediately.
What I've been trying to do is to expand all of this and drive even more conversations to Slack. (To be clear: have the conversations in existing public channels, not in DMs, and avoid tagging people in. Also, do not expect people to read any particular conversation. Slack has a pretty good search feature, so if they ask about something later, link them to the previous discussion. I'm not at all advocating that you take up people's time with pings on Slack.) We do also have occasional video calls for higher-bandwidth conversations, but I've found they work best when they're structured as accelerators to an async written conversation and not as discussion forums in their own right.
- You're not interrupting someone / taking up their whole time. If you have a thought, they can wait until they're free to reply, and if you're both free at the same time you can have a good conversation. But you were still able to write out and communicate the thought.
- More people can join and provide input. I can always talk about things with a couple folks on my team, but it's super valuable to have someone from another part of the company pipe up and say "Hey, what about this" without having to consciously think of inviting them (and interrupting them, see the above point - the way to do this in person is to have extremely large "user group" meetings that are low value for their opportunity cost for most of the attendees).
- I can easily find people in other parts of the company / work across teams because teams tend to be in physically separate locations. It's super easy for me to run something past someone who works in the other building; it would take about 10 minutes of my time total to go there and back, and then I'd have to hope they're at their desk.
- This is something of a mixed blessing, but conversations are logged, so you can reference them later. To the example you give about chatting about things after a conference, I tend to write up what I've learned or ideas I've followed on and put them into Slack pretty quickly, with the expectation that we'll have a conversation about them at some later point but not immediately.
What I've been trying to do is to expand all of this and drive even more conversations to Slack. (To be clear: have the conversations in existing public channels, not in DMs, and avoid tagging people in. Also, do not expect people to read any particular conversation. Slack has a pretty good search feature, so if they ask about something later, link them to the previous discussion. I'm not at all advocating that you take up people's time with pings on Slack.) We do also have occasional video calls for higher-bandwidth conversations, but I've found they work best when they're structured as accelerators to an async written conversation and not as discussion forums in their own right.
I think I have as many conversations like that over slack (in text) and during standups/planning (video call) as I had in ${job-1} in the office. Don't miss them really.
Different things work for different people. Always-available group video call works for some for example. Don't expect any universally-right solutions though since they depends on the people. Some won't be interested and that's fine. They would probably skip an in-person conversation too.
Different things work for different people. Always-available group video call works for some for example. Don't expect any universally-right solutions though since they depends on the people. Some won't be interested and that's fine. They would probably skip an in-person conversation too.
We are a fairly small team but yeah we still have those sorts of conversations.
On a Tuesday morning we have a get together for the whole team, we have a chat about the current issues we're having and what we've been working on. Normally goes on for about 90 minutes and this seems to keep us generally on the same page. This is our only real 'scheduled' meeting, other ad-hoc ones can happen but its not all that often.
Beyond that we rely on slack. We have a channel for things we want to celebrate, where we can all share on the wins. We also have department specific channels for general updates on things others should probably know for that topic. Sales, Marketing, Engineering, etc. We try to keep the general chit chat out of those so there isnt too much noise. If something goes back and forth a bunch of times we just start a zoom chat and people who want to jump in will do.
Then we have the smaller group DMs that are just the people we'd normally chit chat with as the day goes on. As long as you get your notifications set right so its not bing bong-ing all day then it can be nice to chat sh*t with each other sporadically throughout the day.
On a Tuesday morning we have a get together for the whole team, we have a chat about the current issues we're having and what we've been working on. Normally goes on for about 90 minutes and this seems to keep us generally on the same page. This is our only real 'scheduled' meeting, other ad-hoc ones can happen but its not all that often.
Beyond that we rely on slack. We have a channel for things we want to celebrate, where we can all share on the wins. We also have department specific channels for general updates on things others should probably know for that topic. Sales, Marketing, Engineering, etc. We try to keep the general chit chat out of those so there isnt too much noise. If something goes back and forth a bunch of times we just start a zoom chat and people who want to jump in will do.
Then we have the smaller group DMs that are just the people we'd normally chit chat with as the day goes on. As long as you get your notifications set right so its not bing bong-ing all day then it can be nice to chat sh*t with each other sporadically throughout the day.
We never had those where I work anyways.
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Not exactly what you are thinking of but inextricably linked: My company went through a phase of instability a few years ago. A friend introduced me to a very senior IC about a technical problem based on a hallway conversation. in our informal meeting, the IC began to question the value of my project. shortly after, my manager (who always had total visibility into my project), reassigned me.
Maybe this is a creative destruction success story, but the informal nature of all these discussions prevented me from having the chance to gather and present information on my work.
Additionally, when layoffs started a bit later, every single "How is it going?" felt like it could end up tipping the scales, which made every trip to the bathroom a stressful gauntlet
Maybe this is a creative destruction success story, but the informal nature of all these discussions prevented me from having the chance to gather and present information on my work.
Additionally, when layoffs started a bit later, every single "How is it going?" felt like it could end up tipping the scales, which made every trip to the bathroom a stressful gauntlet
1. I think there is a shift - whereas formerly you had these conversations more with people you were physically around, but on less occasions, you can have them now with everybody and anytime. However, there are some prerequisites, imo mainly around communication style, predisposition or culture. I think the essence is that both parties are able to figure things between the lines written and empathise a lot despite the restricted medium.
2. using video chat often helps. once I had a longer video conversation with somebody to get to know each other it is much easier to go ahead thinking about things only in a few chat lines. mostly it helps also to be informal with language and plain with concepts in chats
2. using video chat often helps. once I had a longer video conversation with somebody to get to know each other it is much easier to go ahead thinking about things only in a few chat lines. mostly it helps also to be informal with language and plain with concepts in chats
Two things that come to mind for me:
1. I have had some meaningful conversations while WFH, but only with direct team-members, and only people I knew while in the office. I used to sit next to a guy in another org who was really interesting, and since WFH started I don't see/hear him at all.
2. My large company had a relatively successful transition to full WFH, but as time goes on and we hire new people, I foresee a lot of trouble in maintaining healthy team dynamics. It seems like a lot of the success in the transition was based on the presence of already existing, successful teams. I wonder if teams would develop and mature with the same success if they began in a full WFH setting.
1. I have had some meaningful conversations while WFH, but only with direct team-members, and only people I knew while in the office. I used to sit next to a guy in another org who was really interesting, and since WFH started I don't see/hear him at all.
2. My large company had a relatively successful transition to full WFH, but as time goes on and we hire new people, I foresee a lot of trouble in maintaining healthy team dynamics. It seems like a lot of the success in the transition was based on the presence of already existing, successful teams. I wonder if teams would develop and mature with the same success if they began in a full WFH setting.
Not at all.
1. Do you miss these conversations? Back to the in-office time, when do you usually have a spontaneous chat that is interesting and also meaningful to your work? (eg. After a conference)
Yes usually when I've learned something or am working on something that excites me, if i see a coworker i respect or am friends with, i usually strike up a conversation about that topic.
2. In remote work, have you tried to restore these moments? What did you do? Is it working well?
Hard to do, don't really have any real cues as to what frame of mind the other person on the other side is. Are they busy with something that is pressing? Do they have to pick up their kids in 5 mins?
1. Do you miss these conversations? Back to the in-office time, when do you usually have a spontaneous chat that is interesting and also meaningful to your work? (eg. After a conference)
Yes usually when I've learned something or am working on something that excites me, if i see a coworker i respect or am friends with, i usually strike up a conversation about that topic.
2. In remote work, have you tried to restore these moments? What did you do? Is it working well?
Hard to do, don't really have any real cues as to what frame of mind the other person on the other side is. Are they busy with something that is pressing? Do they have to pick up their kids in 5 mins?
Honestly with remote work I don't find it all that important, we've tried at various stages in the last few months to set aside time to virtually chat - but it just feels like enforced fun and whats worse is that group video/audio calls always end up with 2 colleagues being able to chat at once.
We have however done a few remote team building challenges, which I was prepared to hate - but actually they've been really enjoyable and have certainly lead to some better friendships being formed ! If you office or workplace offers them out then I would highly recommend them, even if it seems like your personal idea of hell !
We have however done a few remote team building challenges, which I was prepared to hate - but actually they've been really enjoyable and have certainly lead to some better friendships being formed ! If you office or workplace offers them out then I would highly recommend them, even if it seems like your personal idea of hell !
What were the team building events? I'd love to try some with my team but I'm worried if the first one sucks then no one will be onboard for a second try.
I'd encourage anyone saying 'no' to also clarify whether they actually had 'inspiring spontaneous conversations [...] meaningful to [their] work' at the office...
In my team my personal Zoom room has become a communal channel. Somebody would join my Zoom at ~8:30am and it keeps going until about ~5:30pm everyday. People are free to come and go as they wish, people from other teams join, when people come looking for us they come into the Zoom call etc. This includes other people from other teams from different countries. If things do get private/technical/disturbing we just go into breakout rooms. When I finally get online at 9am or so there are usually four or five people already in there.
So to answer the questions: I don't miss them because I didn't lose them, and it has worked great -- our team is the highest performing one with the least amount of cabin fever. The reason why it's successful is because it isn't management-driven "mandatory talk time." It's just a bunch of people hanging out.
So to answer the questions: I don't miss them because I didn't lose them, and it has worked great -- our team is the highest performing one with the least amount of cabin fever. The reason why it's successful is because it isn't management-driven "mandatory talk time." It's just a bunch of people hanging out.
This sounds like a great idea! I might want to try that.
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I used to hold office hours. these were calendars scheduled times where anybody could bother me, I would continue working if nobody was in. I encouraged people to just swing in and chat about problems, or to use it for tea. teams does not support this as a scheduled feature, to have a meeting that everybody is invited to but is not constantly notified about. I no longer hold office hours
Did you see this thread? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24665472
Yes, I did. Thx for bring it up. But I still want to get more details, like can these conversations be productive? Or how are they different from in-office ones? And when do people like to have these conversations?
Thx for reply!
Thx for reply!
If they’re spontaneous there are no rules are there? Are you proposing to regulate spontaneity?
Well that's an interesting point. What i'm thinking is based on the "well-known" assumption that spontaneity inspire creativity that thus can be actually productive. For example, here is a scenario:
(In a random afternoon) A: The project she presented in the morning so unclear. I have no idea what to do next. B: Me neither, but I'm trying to...... A: Well.......
(In a random afternoon) A: The project she presented in the morning so unclear. I have no idea what to do next. B: Me neither, but I'm trying to...... A: Well.......
The problem we had to get over pretty quickly was the embarrassment of admitting that you didn't know something. We set up a channel with everybody where if you had an issue, or a dumb question you could just put it out there. The more people posting "dumb" questions the less concerned people were about appearing stupid and the more we shared information.
Turns out that we're actually better off now than we were in the office.
It helps we've got a team with few egos, who are genuinely focused on delivery of a decent product.
Turns out that we're actually better off now than we were in the office.
It helps we've got a team with few egos, who are genuinely focused on delivery of a decent product.
There's the concept of "engineered serendipity", which actually appears to be more about removing the obstructions to creative conversation that poor work environments have fostered. It's not about regulating spontaneity, it's about letting the spontaneity happen.
1 – maybe a bit, I’ve been working from home for almost 10 years now.
2 – I sometimes write spontaneous e-mails unrelated to my current work. I usually address them to more than one person. Works well for me. Sometimes people like it and either me or someone else implements that after figuring out the details. Other times someone explains why it won’t work and I learn a lot of new stuff from adjacent areas.
2 – I sometimes write spontaneous e-mails unrelated to my current work. I usually address them to more than one person. Works well for me. Sometimes people like it and either me or someone else implements that after figuring out the details. Other times someone explains why it won’t work and I learn a lot of new stuff from adjacent areas.
I think you're starting from a false premise. I've rarely found in-person conversations to be as helpful as asynchronous conversations over a chat medium (or PR comments, etc). I think the main reason is that during in-person conversations, people don't leave lengthy gaps to think before speaking. So for technical subjects, asynchronous communication is much better suited.
Not spontaneous, but if I'm in a meeting with someone I've never met before I'll schedule a 1:1 just to say hi. It's worked well in expanding my network despite working remotely.
This strategy doesn't work for a lot of people because I think most people think of it as awkward when if you word it friendly enough people understand this would be more normal in the office.
This strategy doesn't work for a lot of people because I think most people think of it as awkward when if you word it friendly enough people understand this would be more normal in the office.
I have far more spontaneous conversations since I’ve been working remotely. We use Pragli and anybody can start a conversation with a click (we are strongly discouraged from marking ourselves as unavailable, or turning off the feature that shows recent activity).
It’s very distracting, actually. In an office, it’s easier to say come back later and you’re less likely to be interrupted.
It’s very distracting, actually. In an office, it’s easier to say come back later and you’re less likely to be interrupted.
My background in software hacking, from 20 years ago, was all remotely working with other people over text. So working from home always feels natural and productive to me. I'm able to think better this way than in person with physical distractions and having to talk in realtime rather than thinking carefully about each thing I say.
I've always worked remotely and it has always been the case. We always have random conversation out of nowhere.
What research? Blog articles? I've been working remotely for 14 years and I can definitely say inspiring conversations happen on the phone most of all. Video chat is not sorted yet. The idea that spontaneous conversation spurs anything positive is Office Space nonsense.
No, my take is that if your strategy for new ideas and productivity at work is random conversations then you’re doing something wrong. If you’re doing work then figure out what that work is and schedule a time for it with the right people.
When I was back in the office. It was pretty much just the other person talking about their life. I was genuinely listening and asking questions about their life. Then they'd leave.
2. Friday at 4pm is beer o’clock - using jit.si, teams,zoom or whatever else is flavour of the week. Not everyone has a beer, and we talk about work and non work stuff without any agenda.
I responded with a no, then deleted because in fact the count of I spiring conversations didn't go down that much. It's the smalltalk and politics and jokes that is not there anymore.
Our Friday stand-up is pretty much an opportunity to share a song from a year and why it's meaningful to you personally.
The idea was suggested by our scrum master last June and it has gone down well.
It's been good for maintaining the bonds while remote working and also learn a bit more about colleagues.
That and having an understanding that everyone has ups and downs especially as we will face into winter and the uncertainty around what that means. In an odd way I've learned more about the team than I would have if we were in the office.
That and having an understanding that everyone has ups and downs especially as we will face into winter and the uncertainty around what that means. In an odd way I've learned more about the team than I would have if we were in the office.
Can I ask if it has gone down well because it actually did or because as in most of these things, people are 'afraid to speak up' and just go along with it?
I can't even imagine being in one of those calls. I prefer my personal life to have a good buffer from my work life (thus I speak about it as little as possible) and same for my co-workers personal lives.
I've seen these kinds of 'calls/meetings' to improve relationships in the work place, but whenever I talk off the record with folks (usually over drinks) most of them hate it and just go with it not to raise waves.
I can't even imagine being in one of those calls. I prefer my personal life to have a good buffer from my work life (thus I speak about it as little as possible) and same for my co-workers personal lives.
I've seen these kinds of 'calls/meetings' to improve relationships in the work place, but whenever I talk off the record with folks (usually over drinks) most of them hate it and just go with it not to raise waves.
As much as I advocate structure, I’ve never gone down there path of formalizing any sort of sharing of personal info, even about songs.
However, as a lead I think it’s important to set an example by voluntarily sharing at least some of my personal life. It opens the space for others who need to vent. Not everyone on my team does- some just need to hear that others are people too, and some are probably just indifferent.
I do have bounds though- I never share inter personal conflicts except with happy endings or as amusing anecdotes (such as my young daughter refusing to wear anything but her princess costume), and while I try to encourage people to share news of life’s tragedies and triumphs, team calls are not group therapy. I’ll happily talk more with people 1-1 about real problems (tragically one of my team members spouse passed recently. We talked about her and their journey multiple times), but other than news of her illness and passing we didn’t talk much about it publicly.
However, as a lead I think it’s important to set an example by voluntarily sharing at least some of my personal life. It opens the space for others who need to vent. Not everyone on my team does- some just need to hear that others are people too, and some are probably just indifferent.
I do have bounds though- I never share inter personal conflicts except with happy endings or as amusing anecdotes (such as my young daughter refusing to wear anything but her princess costume), and while I try to encourage people to share news of life’s tragedies and triumphs, team calls are not group therapy. I’ll happily talk more with people 1-1 about real problems (tragically one of my team members spouse passed recently. We talked about her and their journey multiple times), but other than news of her illness and passing we didn’t talk much about it publicly.
To put it into context I'm in a small team, our team is part of a larger 40+ team. There are things I would be comfortable saying openly with my team Vs the wider team.
Not that I have much of a filter anyway...
We tried doing a bimonthly quiz across our wider team but attendance waned and it was a lot of work for people to pull together content and manage etc.
In our smaller team, you are right and not everyone is into the idea every week, but they are vocal about it and the reasons (deadline/family etc). They are not penalised in any way shape or form for being honest. We also had themed stand-ups for a while (it was good to cheer us up from time to time but a lot of work).
We also have to acknowledge that it's different for everyone, we all have different circumstances.
I have a daughter, two of my colleagues have two kids, one is single, one is in a relationship. Half the team are from different countries, and have had visits home cancelled, they have been upset on calls I've been depressed about things too at times, but you have to be honest with your team, now more than ever you need to be supportive of eachother.
The most simple thing I've found is to have a variety of MS Teams backgrounds that are not your standard ones. It's a simple thing but can get a smile every now and then, especially when someone's kid appears!
We tried doing a bimonthly quiz across our wider team but attendance waned and it was a lot of work for people to pull together content and manage etc.
In our smaller team, you are right and not everyone is into the idea every week, but they are vocal about it and the reasons (deadline/family etc). They are not penalised in any way shape or form for being honest. We also had themed stand-ups for a while (it was good to cheer us up from time to time but a lot of work).
We also have to acknowledge that it's different for everyone, we all have different circumstances.
I have a daughter, two of my colleagues have two kids, one is single, one is in a relationship. Half the team are from different countries, and have had visits home cancelled, they have been upset on calls I've been depressed about things too at times, but you have to be honest with your team, now more than ever you need to be supportive of eachother.
The most simple thing I've found is to have a variety of MS Teams backgrounds that are not your standard ones. It's a simple thing but can get a smile every now and then, especially when someone's kid appears!
That's the problem. There isn't an "off the record" any more.
That's nice. Thanks for sharing.
I really enjoyed having a team Discord(.com) where everyone had access to push to talk functionality.
Mumble would be the open source alternative.
Mumble would be the open source alternative.
Yes, but we can't really talk much as we need to get things done xD
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Of course not. Let's get back to work.
Yes, with myself usually.
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I'm studying if there is any strategies to compensate the loss of these conversations in remote working and do people really need a new strategy. So, I have a few questions do ask.
1. Do you miss these conversations? Back to the in-office time, when do you usually have a spontaneous chat that is interesting and also meaningful to your work? (eg. After a conference)
2. In remote work, have you tried to restore these moments? What did you do? Is it working well?