Ask HN: Modern office life has become unbearable to me
30 comments
Wealth attracts rats. Startups used to be a good trick around them but there are plenty of rats in startups these days too. I strongly suggest accepting rats as a part of work, and learning to deal with them, just the way you deal with risk of crime or pandemics. To be clear, you shouldn't be stoic and ignore it, but you should join the pointless attrition wars and try to win. Robert Greene's books have excellent advice and patterns for politics. In the book Mastery, he even adds it as a phase for career advancement, e.g. Benjamin Franklin getting screwed many times by his ambition and focus on work, until he wised up and learned to manage the office politics.
The most unpopular advice I'd offer is work smart and work hard. Very few people are willing to do both and it will set you up well. Unintuitively, it's also the easiest path, especially when you make it a part of your character and not as something you just slog through until financial freedom. You should always hide how hard you work as the envy attracts bad things.
There's a lot of competition for spots where you do little work and make a lot of money, and little competition for the ones where you do a lot of work, and make good money. Thus, the latter will also give you more power and flexibility.
The most unpopular advice I'd offer is work smart and work hard. Very few people are willing to do both and it will set you up well. Unintuitively, it's also the easiest path, especially when you make it a part of your character and not as something you just slog through until financial freedom. You should always hide how hard you work as the envy attracts bad things.
There's a lot of competition for spots where you do little work and make a lot of money, and little competition for the ones where you do a lot of work, and make good money. Thus, the latter will also give you more power and flexibility.
Funny to see Greene's "Mastery" mentioned here ...
Y Combinator and Paul Graham's story, are used to illustrate the "mastery" process that is the basis of the book, among other real life examples.-
So it is a neat place to find a comment about the book. :)
BTW: Second the book recommendation. Very inspiring. Particularly the advice on how to "gladly suffer fools" :) ... and how it puts the life-work of geniuses like Mozart in context, showing how even -they- had to deal with the mundanities of finding their own place in the world, while dealing with others.-
So it is a neat place to find a comment about the book. :)
BTW: Second the book recommendation. Very inspiring. Particularly the advice on how to "gladly suffer fools" :) ... and how it puts the life-work of geniuses like Mozart in context, showing how even -they- had to deal with the mundanities of finding their own place in the world, while dealing with others.-
I dont think I have what it takes to play the game.
I do not mind to work hard though. Not long hours but hard and smart is no problem. Unfortunately I don’t think that’s enough. Most people around me are constantly working on looking good, doing the job is only secondary.
I do not mind to work hard though. Not long hours but hard and smart is no problem. Unfortunately I don’t think that’s enough. Most people around me are constantly working on looking good, doing the job is only secondary.
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First of all, you should be congratulated for showing up and doing the job despite everything. Many people can't show up. That does not make you the better person, but it means you're doing it, you're surviving.
Second, there is an absence of purpose that would propel you to make a change. You like the technical stuff, but you struggle with the political. This could be resolved a number of different ways:
1. Disconnect. Do what it takes to get away from society, even if it risks some safety for you and loved ones. This is a thing of degrees. Your comfort zone right now, as an employee, is to be attached to power, as software is recognized as a lever of power and the software industry has been nourished to that end with layers of gatekeeping and legitimacy. That's why the politics get ratcheted up to a degree that you would not encounter if you were lifting bales of hay all day. So you should recognize that the social situation you are in is actually quite intense and not "normal" by nature.
2. Develop your own kingdom. That is, allow yourself a space where you call the shots. This is, too, a thing of degrees. Some people indulge in community-building as a hobby. Others shoot for the moon and take on whatever debt is needed to gain billionaire grade power. A third group finds speculative angles that let them place studied bets without being visible figures or getting their hands dirty. My personal preference is epistemic power: building loose affiliations through the study of various topics. Becoming someone who is often consulted is a stone's throw from being a professional consultant.
3. Create the future through the present. The legacy you build for yourself comes mostly through everyday actions. If you allow yourself some time to pursue something regularly - a side project, new skills, etc. - you will continue to develop as a person, and therefore the job won't wear you out as much. It's not doing it for one day or one week that is the issue you really face, but with the idea that this is decades of your life. You need to know who you really are to be able to ask for what you want, and it's quite likely that you don't know yourself well enough yet.
Second, there is an absence of purpose that would propel you to make a change. You like the technical stuff, but you struggle with the political. This could be resolved a number of different ways:
1. Disconnect. Do what it takes to get away from society, even if it risks some safety for you and loved ones. This is a thing of degrees. Your comfort zone right now, as an employee, is to be attached to power, as software is recognized as a lever of power and the software industry has been nourished to that end with layers of gatekeeping and legitimacy. That's why the politics get ratcheted up to a degree that you would not encounter if you were lifting bales of hay all day. So you should recognize that the social situation you are in is actually quite intense and not "normal" by nature.
2. Develop your own kingdom. That is, allow yourself a space where you call the shots. This is, too, a thing of degrees. Some people indulge in community-building as a hobby. Others shoot for the moon and take on whatever debt is needed to gain billionaire grade power. A third group finds speculative angles that let them place studied bets without being visible figures or getting their hands dirty. My personal preference is epistemic power: building loose affiliations through the study of various topics. Becoming someone who is often consulted is a stone's throw from being a professional consultant.
3. Create the future through the present. The legacy you build for yourself comes mostly through everyday actions. If you allow yourself some time to pursue something regularly - a side project, new skills, etc. - you will continue to develop as a person, and therefore the job won't wear you out as much. It's not doing it for one day or one week that is the issue you really face, but with the idea that this is decades of your life. You need to know who you really are to be able to ask for what you want, and it's quite likely that you don't know yourself well enough yet.
I remember similar feelings working at a large company. The in-fighting and politics were disturbing, it was any wonder how there was profit. So many people that seemingly contributed negatively yet were still around somehow.
Older, wiser co-workers made comments along the lines of "they're going to pay me to attend 20hrs of meetings, it could be worse."
When you care a lot about your work, it affects you more when there are uncontrollable forces preventing/stalling your work.
Talk to your manager about this and get a sense of how you are performing and that maybe you want to just focus more on the programming work and less on meetings, etc. (the toxic parts).
Explore leaving, there are a lot of companies opening up to remote workers with this pandemic.
Older, wiser co-workers made comments along the lines of "they're going to pay me to attend 20hrs of meetings, it could be worse."
When you care a lot about your work, it affects you more when there are uncontrollable forces preventing/stalling your work.
Talk to your manager about this and get a sense of how you are performing and that maybe you want to just focus more on the programming work and less on meetings, etc. (the toxic parts).
Explore leaving, there are a lot of companies opening up to remote workers with this pandemic.
Any position of power will attract unethical people on power trips. Politicians, police officers, tech managers, religious leaders and even school workers to some extent. Not everybody is like that, but there's always a significant percentage. It's part of life and you can't really avoid it.
I know this is absolutely not great advice, but: have you tried to just stop caring?
I think a lot of the problems get way worse when we care and want the company to succeed and try to do everything in our power to move things forward. When you stop caring and just think "I'm going to do my work and accept that water is wet, and if the company/teams sinks it's not really my problem, I tried" things suddenly become more bearable.
Have you ever experienced that feeling where you give your two-weeks (or two months depending on where you live) notice and then suddenly working there and finishing your assignments is cool and fun, simply because you don't really care about what happens to that specific company/team in the long term anymore?
I know this is absolutely not great advice, but: have you tried to just stop caring?
I think a lot of the problems get way worse when we care and want the company to succeed and try to do everything in our power to move things forward. When you stop caring and just think "I'm going to do my work and accept that water is wet, and if the company/teams sinks it's not really my problem, I tried" things suddenly become more bearable.
Have you ever experienced that feeling where you give your two-weeks (or two months depending on where you live) notice and then suddenly working there and finishing your assignments is cool and fun, simply because you don't really care about what happens to that specific company/team in the long term anymore?
I think similarly, for me, work is not important enough to give it so much energy and emotions. I want to put that into my family and not into my work. I work remotely for a small company and I don't have meetings, just like 1-2 calls a week to talk about the current tasks I'm at, that's it.
I think a lot of the problems you stated come with larger companies. Did you consider changing to a smaller company? Sure there can always be toxic people, but cha chances are better I think.
I think a lot of the problems you stated come with larger companies. Did you consider changing to a smaller company? Sure there can always be toxic people, but cha chances are better I think.
> I tried accepting that there a things I can’t control and adopt a more stoic approach to it all
This stood out to me. It isn't about being stoic. Simply enduring a job is not healthy. Instead, take a hard look at your personal goals. Do the negative aspects of you job prevent you from doing your part well, getting your check and supporting your family? Does a power-tripping, political co-worker prevent you from supporting your family, or are they just annoying?
Maybe the change in perspective is not trying to be stoic, but thinking about it in another way. If you ask yourself, "Would I put up with this for $X/hour?", and the answer is yes, then your problem isn't with the people, it is with your compensation. If your answer is no, then your problem is with the people, and you should find a different environment.
In other words, don't fret over annoyances that are not actually stopping you from reaching your goals. The corporate world is flawed. People are flawed. Accepting that while still defining your own goals and sticking to boundaries that make sure your progress towards your goals often will often let the flaws of a job be less bothersome.
This stood out to me. It isn't about being stoic. Simply enduring a job is not healthy. Instead, take a hard look at your personal goals. Do the negative aspects of you job prevent you from doing your part well, getting your check and supporting your family? Does a power-tripping, political co-worker prevent you from supporting your family, or are they just annoying?
Maybe the change in perspective is not trying to be stoic, but thinking about it in another way. If you ask yourself, "Would I put up with this for $X/hour?", and the answer is yes, then your problem isn't with the people, it is with your compensation. If your answer is no, then your problem is with the people, and you should find a different environment.
In other words, don't fret over annoyances that are not actually stopping you from reaching your goals. The corporate world is flawed. People are flawed. Accepting that while still defining your own goals and sticking to boundaries that make sure your progress towards your goals often will often let the flaws of a job be less bothersome.
You may find mental health counseling useful. A therapist can help you discover the aspects of your office life that are in conflict with your core values, and the aspects that are mere annoyances. This isn’t a suggestion that you are depressed. It’s a suggestion that what you’re experiencing isn’t normal or healthy, it’s not something the rest of us endure. Counseling might help you develop a plan for fixing it.
"I love computers and programming but modern office life has become unbearable for me."
1. Have you thought about trying to build something on the web as an independent creator? There are many solo founders who pay their salary with small internet products (I list them on my website https://makehub.io/)
2. Maybe try working remotely? Most remote jobs are in programming!
1. Have you thought about trying to build something on the web as an independent creator? There are many solo founders who pay their salary with small internet products (I list them on my website https://makehub.io/)
2. Maybe try working remotely? Most remote jobs are in programming!
Error 500 when I click any of the products in makehub.io
"I very content, even happy with everything in my life except work."
Are you sure about that?
This link might provide some perspective. Disclaimer: I assume you are a man (a risky assumption in 2020).
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/the-strongest-predictor-o...
Are you sure about that?
This link might provide some perspective. Disclaimer: I assume you are a man (a risky assumption in 2020).
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/the-strongest-predictor-o...
I wondered the same. A good work / life balance and boundaries for work can really offset a less than ideal workplace. Work seems to really take a toll on OP, makes me wonder about how those boundaries are working.
It's a shame that they don't present the actual data, but rather an interpretation of it. As is, the report is not very useful.
There are studies on PubMed. Most are looking specifically at the medical professions, but there should be some generalized stuff in there too if you search a bit.
Job satisfaction has been listed as a major part of happiness in the population in general. But yeah, it does present more in men.
You have a choice to make: align your work more closely with your own values and mental health needs, or keep playing the corporate game in the same way, both mentally and physically.
The corporation isn't responsible for your mental health, your happiness, your satisfaction, your values. Those are your responsibility.
And: 'escape' is not the approach. There is no place to 'escape' to out there. There are only choices.
I'm telling you this because I've been exactly where you are. And based on my experience, the experience of many friends, and the words of the sages, it all boils down to this: choose, then act on your choices. You have the wheel.
The corporation isn't responsible for your mental health, your happiness, your satisfaction, your values. Those are your responsibility.
And: 'escape' is not the approach. There is no place to 'escape' to out there. There are only choices.
I'm telling you this because I've been exactly where you are. And based on my experience, the experience of many friends, and the words of the sages, it all boils down to this: choose, then act on your choices. You have the wheel.
Thanks for your help. Could you tell me what choices you made that have made it better for you?
You're still looking outside yourself for the answers. Nobody else's past choices are going to help you. There is no template. No blueprint. You've got to make your own. Trust me.
Not OP, but I was similarly tired of building optics and plays on permanent roles - that is inevitable part of the ladder competition. I also love programing since being kid.
Now I am expert for hire, contractor, mercenary. Surely I try to read politics for my own benefit, is it for securing contract extension or jumping onto more interesting project within the organization. However I don't have to play games to chase bonuses and perks - solid daily rate exceeds all that. No racing with goals or reviews - choose own path, trainings, conferences, transferable skills. No need to believe in management success propaganda - we do professional business, I sell my expertise they make use of it. Not volountieering my precious weekend time to make bosses happy - overtime? eventually, here is the rate.
A bit of ego and sales talk is needed too to get foot in the door and then sometimes to convince them to hear your advice. I am there to help, get job done under agreed conditions and leave with more experience, grown reputation, and new contacts in my network.
Now I am expert for hire, contractor, mercenary. Surely I try to read politics for my own benefit, is it for securing contract extension or jumping onto more interesting project within the organization. However I don't have to play games to chase bonuses and perks - solid daily rate exceeds all that. No racing with goals or reviews - choose own path, trainings, conferences, transferable skills. No need to believe in management success propaganda - we do professional business, I sell my expertise they make use of it. Not volountieering my precious weekend time to make bosses happy - overtime? eventually, here is the rate.
A bit of ego and sales talk is needed too to get foot in the door and then sometimes to convince them to hear your advice. I am there to help, get job done under agreed conditions and leave with more experience, grown reputation, and new contacts in my network.
I'm fairly early in my career and I've still had moments where I felt the same way.
The way I dealt with them is by accepting that this is just a job. Whenever there's an argument, unless I'm going to end up doing something completely distasteful I generally go with the flow. This has both cut down on bikeshedding, and helped me save my energy and attention for things I care about.
Of course, this isn't going to work for everyone. The way I thought of it was in terms of the Gervais principle[1], particularly this section:
> The Losers like to feel good about their lives. They are the happiness seekers, rather than will-to-power players, and enter and exit reactively, in response to the meta-Darwinian trends in the economy. But they have no more loyalty to the firm than the Sociopaths. They do have a loyalty to individual people, and a commitment to finding fulfillment through work when they can, and coasting when they cannot.
Feels odd to admit you're a loser, but hey, it works for me.
1: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...
The way I dealt with them is by accepting that this is just a job. Whenever there's an argument, unless I'm going to end up doing something completely distasteful I generally go with the flow. This has both cut down on bikeshedding, and helped me save my energy and attention for things I care about.
Of course, this isn't going to work for everyone. The way I thought of it was in terms of the Gervais principle[1], particularly this section:
> The Losers like to feel good about their lives. They are the happiness seekers, rather than will-to-power players, and enter and exit reactively, in response to the meta-Darwinian trends in the economy. But they have no more loyalty to the firm than the Sociopaths. They do have a loyalty to individual people, and a commitment to finding fulfillment through work when they can, and coasting when they cannot.
Feels odd to admit you're a loser, but hey, it works for me.
1: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...
Change the job.
When you’re inside a swamp (however cool/popular the brand is) - it feels like everything else is just another swamp.
Trust me, it’s not.
Just find the job where office life is good for you.
When you’re inside a swamp (however cool/popular the brand is) - it feels like everything else is just another swamp.
Trust me, it’s not.
Just find the job where office life is good for you.
> I can’t stand the ego trips, wars of attrition, power struggles, insecurities and of course the wrong system of incentives that pits people against each other.
Have you experienced this across a number of different companies? If you have, it's more likely that the problem is with you. If you haven't, consider changing jobs.
I've worked for a handful of employers and I've never experienced what you're describing. Not sure how much of that is because I've been lucky to land on good companies/teams, or I just have a personality that isn't affected by these kinds of things.
Have you experienced this across a number of different companies? If you have, it's more likely that the problem is with you. If you haven't, consider changing jobs.
I've worked for a handful of employers and I've never experienced what you're describing. Not sure how much of that is because I've been lucky to land on good companies/teams, or I just have a personality that isn't affected by these kinds of things.
You probably have a totally different personality than op.
Not sure if you read this popular piece from last week https://defmacro.substack.com/p/how-to-get-promoted
but seems like op is in a similar mindset, especially regarding the forest metaphor in the article.
Not sure if you read this popular piece from last week https://defmacro.substack.com/p/how-to-get-promoted
but seems like op is in a similar mindset, especially regarding the forest metaphor in the article.
Your argument could be applied to you just as easy. If you don’t notice it, you could be the cause as well.
To the OPs original lamentation, ego clashes are pretty much part of adult life. The solution to it is maturity, and maturity is fundamentally your ability to get the fuck over it and handle your responsibilities. With that said, I understand that it’s not easy.
To the OPs original lamentation, ego clashes are pretty much part of adult life. The solution to it is maturity, and maturity is fundamentally your ability to get the fuck over it and handle your responsibilities. With that said, I understand that it’s not easy.
> If you don’t notice it, you could be the cause as well.
Right, I tried to point that out in my last sentence. Not sure if it's me or the environment.
Right, I tried to point that out in my last sentence. Not sure if it's me or the environment.
See a therapist, first and foremost.
You got plenty of choices, luckily. None being escapist neither implying you having to back down as some of the answers here imply, though there were some valuable advices you were given. All choices and solutions basically revolve around not working at a corporation. Join a small company, go contracting / freelancing. They do imply short term discomfort, bear a certain level of risk, yet they yield great dividends.
You got plenty of choices, luckily. None being escapist neither implying you having to back down as some of the answers here imply, though there were some valuable advices you were given. All choices and solutions basically revolve around not working at a corporation. Join a small company, go contracting / freelancing. They do imply short term discomfort, bear a certain level of risk, yet they yield great dividends.
You should definitely include your thoughts in your next TPS report. Don't forget the new cover sheet.
In all seriousness though, there's always a moving goal for work peace and awesomeness. Remember how Agile was going to free developers to do their craft? In comes business to systematize it, and around we go again. The tree of building cool stuff must from time to time be watered with the flop sweat of coders and managers.
In all seriousness though, there's always a moving goal for work peace and awesomeness. Remember how Agile was going to free developers to do their craft? In comes business to systematize it, and around we go again. The tree of building cool stuff must from time to time be watered with the flop sweat of coders and managers.
Things changed for me when I realized that if you want to do cool stuff you need to do them at home.
At work, do your best to make people happy.
Also at no point in your comment you describe what a good situation would be like.
At work, do your best to make people happy.
Also at no point in your comment you describe what a good situation would be like.
I can’t stand the ego trips, wars of attrition, power struggles, insecurities and of course the wrong system of incentives that pits people against each other. Most of the time I feel either extremely frustrated and or angry.
I tried accepting that there a things I can’t control and adopt a more stoic approach to it all but it doesn’t seem like I'm succeeding.
A lot of people feel this way part of the time but are able to cope. I believe I'm just more susceptible than the average person. I've tried different companies of different scales but it doesn’t seem to make much of a difference.
Some of you might suggest I am depressed and I wouldn’t exclude the possibility but I know depression well and I don’t believe it’s the case. I very content, even happy with everything in my life except work.
I did experience serious mental health problems in my 20s and even though I have been stable and functioning for a long time, it’s still there, more or less buried but who knows for how long.
I have some network but not enough that I can just abandon the comfort of my salary. I have a family that depends on me and the pressure to provide is there (at least in me).
I know some of you escaped the rat race and there are wise people in here. What can I do?