Apple announces ‘One More Thing’ event for November 10th(theverge.com)
theverge.com
Apple announces ‘One More Thing’ event for November 10th
https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/2/21546136/apple-event-date-time-november-10th-one-more-thing-arm-mac-silicon
129 comments
I'm getting closer and closer to that Linux transition I've been putting off for years.
If anything, Arm MacBooks have a huge advantage over my current (old) ThinkPad—battery life and performance per watt will be significantly better. I haven't read much more about the new virtualization tech that was announced at WWDC, but that's also exciting for running Linux on the Mac.
What about Arm Macs pushes you away from the platform?
What about Arm Macs pushes you away from the platform?
not the op, but for me...
1. the big sur ui is not very attractive (i know it sounds arbitrary, but big sur just looks very non-desktop, very fischer price, and i have no alterantive since catalina wont be supported)
2. virtualization for x86_64 apps, that wont last forever, and at some point those x86 binaries wont work anymore (i already lost a ton of apps with catalina...)
3. for my work i already need vmware alot, and the idea of running even half-speed at best is a non-starter
--
that being said, as a consummer oriented device, or an iphone/ipad app developer machine i think its defintely going to do well
1. the big sur ui is not very attractive (i know it sounds arbitrary, but big sur just looks very non-desktop, very fischer price, and i have no alterantive since catalina wont be supported)
2. virtualization for x86_64 apps, that wont last forever, and at some point those x86 binaries wont work anymore (i already lost a ton of apps with catalina...)
3. for my work i already need vmware alot, and the idea of running even half-speed at best is a non-starter
--
that being said, as a consummer oriented device, or an iphone/ipad app developer machine i think its defintely going to do well
>1. the big sur ui is not very attractive (i know it sounds arbitrary, but big sur just looks very non-desktop, very fischer price, and i have no alterantive since catalina wont be supported)
I find these "this look fischer price/non-desktop" like hearing goth teenagers wanting something darker and more edgy -- well, the "pro" mentality equivalent, where if it doesn't look boring and beize it's not good.
It's a mighty fine look, nothing fischer prize about it, and hardly that different from the previous iteration. If anything it much less fischer prize than the original Aqua interface and its 4-5 next iterations, which was praised as a great looking ("lickable") UI.
I find these "this look fischer price/non-desktop" like hearing goth teenagers wanting something darker and more edgy -- well, the "pro" mentality equivalent, where if it doesn't look boring and beize it's not good.
It's a mighty fine look, nothing fischer prize about it, and hardly that different from the previous iteration. If anything it much less fischer prize than the original Aqua interface and its 4-5 next iterations, which was praised as a great looking ("lickable") UI.
to be fair, i dont mind the colorfulness or any of that, but the huge bezels, margins and font sizes are a huge waste of space in a desktop environment
its kind of obvious that for the need to compromise the ui of mac in order for ipad/iphone apps to look "at home" and im sure in apples calculus its worth the hit in the near term, but for this person its a bit too far...
*ive been using the big sur betas on and off for a while now
> Aqua interface and its 4-5 next iterations, which was praised as a great looking
sure, aqua got a lot better after the next iterations, so lets keep an eye out and see what happens...
its kind of obvious that for the need to compromise the ui of mac in order for ipad/iphone apps to look "at home" and im sure in apples calculus its worth the hit in the near term, but for this person its a bit too far...
*ive been using the big sur betas on and off for a while now
> Aqua interface and its 4-5 next iterations, which was praised as a great looking
sure, aqua got a lot better after the next iterations, so lets keep an eye out and see what happens...
>its kind of obvious that for the need to compromise the ui of mac in order for ipad/iphone apps to look "at home"
I think AS laptops are also getting touchscreens (now or on the first design refresh).
But I welcome bigger screen elements myself, it means better hit targets (Fitt's law), and less cluttered UIs -- easier on the eyes too.
As for the wasted space, it's not like they're removing menu items or icons or cutting out features to accomondate the larger buttons. Just larger looking bezels and edges.
I think AS laptops are also getting touchscreens (now or on the first design refresh).
But I welcome bigger screen elements myself, it means better hit targets (Fitt's law), and less cluttered UIs -- easier on the eyes too.
As for the wasted space, it's not like they're removing menu items or icons or cutting out features to accomondate the larger buttons. Just larger looking bezels and edges.
If that's the reason why, then I guess I don't want a touch screen mac. Looking at my screen now, I would fat finger just about everything if it was a touch screen as sensitive as my iPhone (where I fat finger quite a few of things, and my fingers are really quite narrow). The mouse is a precision instrument. Your finger is not. I'd hate for the UI to suffer due to catering toward a less precise input I have no intention of ever using.
Well, a UI requiring less precision to accomondate fingers wouldn't suffer for mouse use.
If anything, it's the contrary: it would become easier to use with the higher precision mouse, because targers would be even larger.
The key insight here is that they wont make the mouse lose precision: instead, they make the targets the mouse has to hit bigger -- which, given that the mouse retains the same precision, makes it even easier to hit them!
If anything, it's the contrary: it would become easier to use with the higher precision mouse, because targers would be even larger.
The key insight here is that they wont make the mouse lose precision: instead, they make the targets the mouse has to hit bigger -- which, given that the mouse retains the same precision, makes it even easier to hit them!
It would suffer by loosing data density. I don't want to loose effective screen real estate where it is already limited on a laptop. I try to keep my browser windows as slim as possible for this reason.
VMWare won't run x86 Windows or Linux at all, much less at half speed: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/apple_silicon/abou...
But the server space will within a few years begin transition to ARM as well . Look at Amazons graviton ARM cloud offerings. It beats x86 on bang for buck.
Also, Apple services in Big Sur circumventing VPNs and Little Snitch is a complete nonstarter for me. I’m staying on Catalina with an Intel Mac for the foreseeable future.
You'll have to run ARM linux on the Mac. x86 Linux and Windows cannot be virtualized with Apple's Rosetta 2: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/apple_silicon/abou...
That doesn’t mean they can’t be virtualized by a third party product. We had x86 emulators on PowerPC Macs.
> What about Arm Macs pushes you away from the platform?
I need to be able to run Windows in Fusion or Parallels without emulating x86.
I need to be able to run Windows in Fusion or Parallels without emulating x86.
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Speaking from experience, just do not try any fringe distro. Pick one of the top 3 popular ones - they are much better in little things that you will appreciate.
It’s good advice but I’m not sure how you count “top 3 popular distros” these days.
A lot of people into Linux seem to go through a phase where they try out a rolling release distro like Arch or Gentoo, and then after a couple years get sick of dealing with broken systems & switch to something more stable like Debian/Ubuntu/Fedora/Mint/etc. As I get older, the amount of system administration and customization of my system that I want to do is dropping rapidly. I barely even change the desktop wallpaper any more.
A lot of people into Linux seem to go through a phase where they try out a rolling release distro like Arch or Gentoo, and then after a couple years get sick of dealing with broken systems & switch to something more stable like Debian/Ubuntu/Fedora/Mint/etc. As I get older, the amount of system administration and customization of my system that I want to do is dropping rapidly. I barely even change the desktop wallpaper any more.
Community size is good approximation and that is what drives features and your ability to find solution to a problem quckly.
I would say top desktop distros (from most popular to least) are: Ubuntu, Debian, Fedora, Mint.
Anything outside of this list is for tinkers who are not easily frustrated with issues.
I would say top desktop distros (from most popular to least) are: Ubuntu, Debian, Fedora, Mint.
Anything outside of this list is for tinkers who are not easily frustrated with issues.
Yes, and I’d say more than that—tinkers who are specifically interested in tinkering with Linux desktop administration.
I’ll do a ridiculous amount of work on some hobby project, but if a system update breaks my WiFi adapter, then I’m tinkering around and facing frustrating issues with WiFi drivers, which sucks, when I really want to be tinkering around and facing frustrating issues with my hobby project, which is awesome.
It’s like: https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/asfgcj/bad_screen...
Same reason I switched to AMD GPUs. Getting the Nvidia cards working on Linux is just a distraction from whatever I really want to do.
I’ll do a ridiculous amount of work on some hobby project, but if a system update breaks my WiFi adapter, then I’m tinkering around and facing frustrating issues with WiFi drivers, which sucks, when I really want to be tinkering around and facing frustrating issues with my hobby project, which is awesome.
It’s like: https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/asfgcj/bad_screen...
Same reason I switched to AMD GPUs. Getting the Nvidia cards working on Linux is just a distraction from whatever I really want to do.
If you value the attention to aesthetics and UX Apple has you might want to give Pop! OS a try. It's based on Ubuntu.
Ubuntu is a pretty good substitute for macOS. My key issue with Linux is the small selection of productivity apps: markdown editors, code editors, drawing packages, password managers like 1Password. Feature rich terminal apps like iTerm2. Well designed Git UI clients like Tower etc.
The rest is pretty good. Like the core UI, file manager, virtual desktop management, configuration etc works very well. Much nicer than the Windows mess.
The rest is pretty good. Like the core UI, file manager, virtual desktop management, configuration etc works very well. Much nicer than the Windows mess.
Cool — one of the major blockers on moving to Linux for me was fractional scaling support. I have 4K monitors but can't use them with tiny text.
I like PopOS a lot, but they didn't have fractional scaling support. It looks like they do now as of Oct 5!
I like PopOS a lot, but they didn't have fractional scaling support. It looks like they do now as of Oct 5!
I've been using 4k with linux for years. On large desktop screens I don't find fractional scaling to be necessary. The important text in apps that matter like terminals, text editors and browsers, chat clients, etc, has always supported scaling well. The only thing that lacked support were system dialogs and title bars. 2x was fine for those until fractional support came out in gnome recently.
I'm already trying out Manjaro XFCE and I'm liking it a lot.
Because Apple is switching to Arm for better performance?
Well, Apple is moving towards increasingly locked down systems. For example, it is very difficult if not impossible to install Linux on the most recent Macbooks. Previously when Apple stopped supporting a Mac, you could install Linux on it. I suspect with the ARM systems going forward, that will become even more difficult.
In other words, it is not just about better performance. It is also about Apple removing your freedoms with your own hardware in the name of 'security'. (I am not saying that there isn't increased security, but at what price?)
In other words, it is not just about better performance. It is also about Apple removing your freedoms with your own hardware in the name of 'security'. (I am not saying that there isn't increased security, but at what price?)
I would certainly love if Apple made this device friendly to Linux use. The lack of Bootcamp support makes it seem unlikely, but I can hope. The fact that they made a point of demoing Linux in a VM is (very) slightly encouraging.
The lack of Bootcamp is because Windows didn't want to support selling on Windows for ARM. https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/24/21302213/apple-silicon-ma...
It's Microsoft's fault that they don't sell Windows for ARM so including Bootcamp would have no reason (as despite us power users, the primary use case for Bootcamp (it's even in the logo) is running Windows).
It's Microsoft's fault that they don't sell Windows for ARM so including Bootcamp would have no reason (as despite us power users, the primary use case for Bootcamp (it's even in the logo) is running Windows).
If they want to lock down the system there's nothing about x86 that prevents them from doing so there. So that's a faulty argument.
At around $25 a month if your laptop lasts for 6 years
I'm not a fan of these computations. If the computer functions, you should still be able to use it, regardless of how much existing use you get out of it.
I think I got 18 months out of my last two MacBooks before they gave out. Moved to windows desktops now. Much better value propositions, especially now as we don’t have to go out any more! :)
You're very unlucky. I'm still using the same macbook pro I got in 2013.
Ouch.. I guess I was lucky.
I'm on a late 2013 which I've only actually paid for a battery replacement on, so I can anecdote believe you.
I'm not in love with macos though and there's more good options nowadays than there was in 2013.
I'm not in love with macos though and there's more good options nowadays than there was in 2013.
Not at all. Some people, me included, look at hardware and it falls to bits. Really they're not particularly durable machines. Apple could do a lot better.
Thinkpads are ok though. I haven't murdered one of them. Yet. I've tried and failed several times from coffee to catapulting them and they just eat my hamfistedness.
I just bought a replacement iPad for my daughter for the one that we bought in 2013 though. Stuff can last a long time.
Thinkpads are ok though. I haven't murdered one of them. Yet. I've tried and failed several times from coffee to catapulting them and they just eat my hamfistedness.
I just bought a replacement iPad for my daughter for the one that we bought in 2013 though. Stuff can last a long time.
Nah, our household has a collection of macs none newer than 2017. My phone and iPad are from 2014 and my gf’s from 2015, and I have a watch 0. They all work fine and, except for the watch and geriatric macs, continue to get software updates.
This will be a good excuse to start a mass upgrade but I won’t be an early adopter.
This will be a good excuse to start a mass upgrade but I won’t be an early adopter.
Or the parent was unlucky - with some faulty production units, and the general case for most people, with hundreds of millions of units sold and the highest customer satisfaction ratings, is not that.
better performance only if your desired software runs on the new processor. if not then what do you have?
I am a light weight user in the Mac world, browsing and some games. However the few games left after the Catalina change to drop 32 bit support are still important to me. One of the publishers has preemptively dropped support for Mac and its near impossible to tell if others will continue support into AS.
I know, there is a crowd out there that loves to declare "you should not use your Mac for games" along with "Buy a system for games then". Well let me be blunt, if it cannot serve both purposes then it serves none which means leaving the platform behind.
So I look at AS with excitement and trepidation all at the same time with the realization my current Mac may well be my last.
I am a light weight user in the Mac world, browsing and some games. However the few games left after the Catalina change to drop 32 bit support are still important to me. One of the publishers has preemptively dropped support for Mac and its near impossible to tell if others will continue support into AS.
I know, there is a crowd out there that loves to declare "you should not use your Mac for games" along with "Buy a system for games then". Well let me be blunt, if it cannot serve both purposes then it serves none which means leaving the platform behind.
So I look at AS with excitement and trepidation all at the same time with the realization my current Mac may well be my last.
Didn’t Wendker demo a video game running under emulation? That should work fine for your 64 bit games.
And it’s not like your old hardware will suddenly stop working. If you want to place PS2 games you need an old PS2, and this is the same.
Also, along the line of your old hardware still working: no need to upgrade any time soon.
And it’s not like your old hardware will suddenly stop working. If you want to place PS2 games you need an old PS2, and this is the same.
Also, along the line of your old hardware still working: no need to upgrade any time soon.
I’m hopeful we’ll see something similar to the move Steam has made for old Pc games. With a little love, devs can usually get an old Windows 95 game running as we’ve seen in the past few years.
If the Apple silicon is powerful enough, it might not matter if there is a huge performance hit for the emulation. It’ll be an interesting next 5 years for sure.
If the Apple silicon is powerful enough, it might not matter if there is a huge performance hit for the emulation. It’ll be an interesting next 5 years for sure.
> better performance only if your desired software runs on the new processor. if not then what do you have?
Well of course... Give it some time for the patches to come. Recompiling for multiple processor architectures is easier now than it used to be.
> I know, there is a crowd out there that loves to declare "you should not use your Mac for games" along with "Buy a system for games then". Well let me be blunt, if it cannot serve both purposes then it serves none which means leaving the platform behind.
I think you SHOULD use a Mac for games. Most people saying that are not in fact Mac users. The ARM transition isn't going to push Mac games out of existence. In fact it'll probably push Microsoft to properly treat ARM as a first class citizen so companies will be compiling their software for two different architectures anyway.
Well of course... Give it some time for the patches to come. Recompiling for multiple processor architectures is easier now than it used to be.
> I know, there is a crowd out there that loves to declare "you should not use your Mac for games" along with "Buy a system for games then". Well let me be blunt, if it cannot serve both purposes then it serves none which means leaving the platform behind.
I think you SHOULD use a Mac for games. Most people saying that are not in fact Mac users. The ARM transition isn't going to push Mac games out of existence. In fact it'll probably push Microsoft to properly treat ARM as a first class citizen so companies will be compiling their software for two different architectures anyway.
Rosetta 2 translates x86 instructions to ARM and cache result. That translation seems quite good given that they demonstrated a complex 3D game running translated code on ARM hardware much weaker than what Apple will deliver in laptops.
Honestly I think x86 games will run better on these ARM laptops. Keep in mind x86 on laptops don’t work great. Apple could outperform most of their x86 laptops with a passively cooled ARM tablet.
An ARM laptop with active cooling will destroy their x86 lineup.
Besides you also get the whole iOS games catalog now which is much larger than the macOS game selection.
Honestly I think x86 games will run better on these ARM laptops. Keep in mind x86 on laptops don’t work great. Apple could outperform most of their x86 laptops with a passively cooled ARM tablet.
An ARM laptop with active cooling will destroy their x86 lineup.
Besides you also get the whole iOS games catalog now which is much larger than the macOS game selection.
The iOS catalog is moot until devs starting making real games for the platform. Apple Arcade and a few indie studios have done great, but for the most part, iOS games are micro transaction laden trash. It will take years before we see any real desktop level games developed to run exclusively on ARM macs.
I think the success of gaming on the platform will come down to game engine devs like Unreal and Unity. If they can optimize exports to target Apple silicon with minimal overhead, that’s the best bet to see gaming live on. Otherwise, I don’t see how any AAA studios can find it worth their time to build for 2 completely different architectures.
One interesting exception might be EA, as The Sims is hugely popular among casual crowds that might have a MacBook for college or something. But in the case of EA, they also will create a new Sims game and then milk it for a decade, thus paying back their R&D costs. Other studios who frequently make new games and want to push the hardware may not be as inclined to spend that with such a small install base.
I think the success of gaming on the platform will come down to game engine devs like Unreal and Unity. If they can optimize exports to target Apple silicon with minimal overhead, that’s the best bet to see gaming live on. Otherwise, I don’t see how any AAA studios can find it worth their time to build for 2 completely different architectures.
One interesting exception might be EA, as The Sims is hugely popular among casual crowds that might have a MacBook for college or something. But in the case of EA, they also will create a new Sims game and then milk it for a decade, thus paying back their R&D costs. Other studios who frequently make new games and want to push the hardware may not be as inclined to spend that with such a small install base.
> Because Apple is switching to Arm for better performance?
Because I wont be able to run Windows in Fusion without a very big performance hit.
Because I wont be able to run Windows in Fusion without a very big performance hit.
[benchmarks needed]
They will come, when the computers are available. But Apple wouldn't invest in doing it at great expensive if it didn't produce a better more competitive product.
Look at the transition dev kit. Also, look at the intel’s iris vs apple’s gpu
Shouldn't you compare to Intel Xe for integrated graphics performance?
No, when you're trying to disrespect Intel it's customary to compare announced imaginary parts to obsolete Intel parts.
Look at what from the transition kit? The only thing available show it having single-core performance that would have been state-of-the-art ten years ago. Is there something newer and more impressive?
I couldn't transition to a Linux laptop as I don't think it has optimal battery life nor does the trackpad feel as Mac-like as I need it to be. But I could see ARM Mac laptops being used by a lot of people for connecting to real systems that are still x86. In other words, the Mac laptop is a browser machine or a display to a real work VM.
I think ARM is the nail in the coffin of the non-laptop Mac brand though.
I think ARM is the nail in the coffin of the non-laptop Mac brand though.
You say that because you think ARM gives toy performance when everything actually points to Apple Silicon will be a performance beast. It may not beat the big x86 gaming rigs but I am quite confident that the highest performance laptops of any kind in the next few year will all be ARM based.
iMac and Mac Mini are also small enclosures which will benefit from ARM performance wise.
All that matters is really watt per performance and dollars relative to performance and there ARM already beats intel. To beat an x86 intel is just a matter of throwing in enough cores.
AMD will be harder as their performance relative to cost is better than ARM and intel. But there is nothing special about beating intel at this point.
iMac and Mac Mini are also small enclosures which will benefit from ARM performance wise.
All that matters is really watt per performance and dollars relative to performance and there ARM already beats intel. To beat an x86 intel is just a matter of throwing in enough cores.
AMD will be harder as their performance relative to cost is better than ARM and intel. But there is nothing special about beating intel at this point.
Why you don’t think arm can function on iMac scale?
https://www.macrumors.com/2020/11/02/apple-smaller-mac-pro-a...
https://www.macrumors.com/2020/11/02/apple-smaller-mac-pro-a...
Yeah. I’m a long time Mac user. Like 17 years, I’m keen on it because UNIX and pretty.
I was looking at Arch + KDE plasma and it’s really tempting.
I returned a 16inch MBP recently as it kept crashing on shutdown. macOS on intel is a mess and so is the T2. And I’m a fanboy.
I’ve made a deal with myself. If these new Apple Si machines are blow away I’ll try again. Else I’m buying a Lenovo Legion and moving to Arch.
Not sure what to do for a phone but probably stay with iOS.
I was looking at Arch + KDE plasma and it’s really tempting.
I returned a 16inch MBP recently as it kept crashing on shutdown. macOS on intel is a mess and so is the T2. And I’m a fanboy.
I’ve made a deal with myself. If these new Apple Si machines are blow away I’ll try again. Else I’m buying a Lenovo Legion and moving to Arch.
Not sure what to do for a phone but probably stay with iOS.
>I returned a 16inch MBP recently as it kept crashing on shutdown. macOS on intel is a mess and so is the T2. And I’m a fanboy.
macOS on Intel is a mess because a particular 16inch MBP "kept crashing on shutdown"? As if Windows and Linux running machines don't have cases where they keep running on shutdown?
macOS/T2 has bugs like all software, but this is not some general state of macOS/T2, which runs fine without "crashing on shutdown" for hundreds of millions of other people (including those with MBP16).
How about it's some particular production run / unit, and or some particular app?
(Which can happen for any vendor / OS)
macOS on Intel is a mess because a particular 16inch MBP "kept crashing on shutdown"? As if Windows and Linux running machines don't have cases where they keep running on shutdown?
macOS/T2 has bugs like all software, but this is not some general state of macOS/T2, which runs fine without "crashing on shutdown" for hundreds of millions of other people (including those with MBP16).
How about it's some particular production run / unit, and or some particular app?
(Which can happen for any vendor / OS)
I'm currently waiting (and cursing) Lenovo for delaying delivery of the AMD T14 I paid for in September.
I'm a bit worried for my precious free time that will be wasted on fending off the thousand-cuts onslaught of bugs, but I'm willing to try.
It's gotten to this Tim (and Jony). After ~15 uninterrupted years.
I'm a bit worried for my precious free time that will be wasted on fending off the thousand-cuts onslaught of bugs, but I'm willing to try.
It's gotten to this Tim (and Jony). After ~15 uninterrupted years.
Moving from Intel to ARM is a reason to stay with Mac if you ask me. Intel has been holding computing back with their inefficient architecture, and anything that drives innovation away from x86 is a good thing in my mind.
Much as I dislike some of Apple's practices I think making ARM more mainstream is a trend I want to see continue.
Much as I dislike some of Apple's practices I think making ARM more mainstream is a trend I want to see continue.
Exactly, and maybe arm clouds will be more popular
No idea why this is being downvoted. Does anyone here like the X86 ISA? Sure its been made fast, but that's been quite an uphill battle against things like its complex instruction decoders and limited decoder parallelism. If the same engineering had been put into making ARM fast, ARM would be far faster than X86 is today.
I think that you're going a bit too far with 'far' faster - there isn't any evidence that this is the case and a lot of engineering effort has gone into making Arm fast - not least from Apple.
Apple aren't moving to Arm for no reason though so I think it's worth considering the reasons why this might be the case: power efficiency (probably the most important), price, ability to incorporate custom silicon, a single ISA to support, full control over the stack, access to best manufacturing process.
On the last point, I think Apple (Tim Cook especially) has probably lost faith and patience with a company that has overpromised and underdelivered for a number of years.
Apple aren't moving to Arm for no reason though so I think it's worth considering the reasons why this might be the case: power efficiency (probably the most important), price, ability to incorporate custom silicon, a single ISA to support, full control over the stack, access to best manufacturing process.
On the last point, I think Apple (Tim Cook especially) has probably lost faith and patience with a company that has overpromised and underdelivered for a number of years.
The fact is that x86 has 4 decades of backwards compatibility which along with the PC architecture means a reasonably open and documented platform. Every ARM system is different and they are all lacking the heritage of public documentation that the PC has. In other words, it's not about performance but freedom. I doubt Apple will ever release as much detailed information on its own chips as Intel and AMD have.
x86 is plenty fast anyway, and still wins on code density in single-threaded scalar (i.e. NOT using the vector units) branchy code of the sort commonly found in average applications.
x86 is plenty fast anyway, and still wins on code density in single-threaded scalar (i.e. NOT using the vector units) branchy code of the sort commonly found in average applications.
Genuine question - what is lacking in Arm documentation that Intel provides?
Essentially all the supposedly merchant SoCs are proprietary. Instead of shipping data sheets, winbond or mediatek want to ship you a reference design with reference linux or android build that only works because of a huge binary blob.
There’s a small hardware consulting company in Palo Alto whose main differentiator is that they have a bunch of folks in China who manage to generate docs they can use. I’m guessing this involves a lot of under the table leaks and late night alcohol-fueled discussions.
There’s a small hardware consulting company in Palo Alto whose main differentiator is that they have a bunch of folks in China who manage to generate docs they can use. I’m guessing this involves a lot of under the table leaks and late night alcohol-fueled discussions.
Will 2021 be the year of desktop ARM?
Could be. Pi and Mac announcements on the same day!
I already did. Couldn't be happier.
Don't let the door hit you on your way out...
The event is called "One More Thing". They are applying the same counting they used their AppleOne subscription bundles, there will be three new products announced at the event.
Half life 3 confirmed
If that is the case, fingers crossed there will be a new Apple TV then.
This is the company equivalent of a remake of an 80s movie repeating the one iconic quote 3 times in the trailer.
I think it's become a tradition at the company, part of the culture that people can rally around for big releases. Not a bad thing I don't think!
I had thought so, too—but the article claims that Apple last used it in 2017... I think that's scarce enough that it doesn't qualify as 'overuse'.
That you associate "one more thing" with Apple speaks to the phrase's recognition power, not its frequency of use: it's been three years since Apple last used it.
Wow, you're right. They save it for big occasions it seems. I take back my snarky joke heh
Our most advanced <thing> yet!
Is that how news works these days? they didn't say anything about chips.
In June, they promised that the first Apple Silicon Mac would be released by the end of the year. It's unlikely that they will have a fourth fall/winter event.
It’s definitely unlikely but as someone who’s often guilty of only reading the headlines I’m uncomfortable with it presenting something as fact like this.
This event really has to be about the Apple silicon machines— but that’s not what was announced and the headline shouldn’t say it was.
This event really has to be about the Apple silicon machines— but that’s not what was announced and the headline shouldn’t say it was.
>It’s definitely unlikely but as someone who’s often guilty of only reading the headlines I’m uncomfortable with it presenting something as fact like this.
If only actual serious political newssites "facts" were as solid as this "mere" prediction that the event will be about Apple Silicon.
If only actual serious political newssites "facts" were as solid as this "mere" prediction that the event will be about Apple Silicon.
The various angles in that image reminded me of the silicon cutting planes... I wonder if they were trying to message that..
Please let there be a 14” formfactor
Considering that they moved from 15" to 16" by reducing the bezels, moving the smaller laptops to 14" would be the logical conclusion. Screen estate is precious, especially in the smaller machines.
I would be totally in for a 14" AS Mac :)
The focus is on the move to ARM ISA but just as interesting will be what Apple manages to do with the rest of the silicon - bringing its gpu and neural engine to the laptop / desktop.
Exactly a tightly integrated SoC could revolutionize high performance at low price points, giving low end MacBooks performance that may rival far more expensive PC laptops.
After the introduction of the Intel iMac at MacWorld Expo 2006, the Intel MacBook Pro was the "one more thing".
https://www.macworld.com/article/1048842/livekeynote.html https://www.wired.com/2006/01/one-more-thing-/
https://www.macworld.com/article/1048842/livekeynote.html https://www.wired.com/2006/01/one-more-thing-/
Perhaps the most eyebrow-raising part of the WWDC ARM transition announcement was the promise that Apple Silicon Macs would be able to run iOS software. People mostly seem to have just accepted it at face value, perhaps with the idea that "oh, there will be a touchscreen MacBook," but this doesn't really capture the breadth of what this will entail.
Apple has, of course, famously resisted the hybrid/convertible form factor, a decision largely proven right by Microsoft's advance into and subsequent retreat from a universal touch-and-pointer UI in Windows 8. The addition of trackpad support to iPadOS this year was an interesting hybrid-like evolution of Apple's tablet UI, but something as complex as MacOS is going to be a lot harder to take in the other direction without turning into Windows 8.
Whatever Apple's solution is to avoid making the Mac into a "fridge-toaster" will be unveiled alongside the new hardware, and I'm quite curious what it will be.
Apple has, of course, famously resisted the hybrid/convertible form factor, a decision largely proven right by Microsoft's advance into and subsequent retreat from a universal touch-and-pointer UI in Windows 8. The addition of trackpad support to iPadOS this year was an interesting hybrid-like evolution of Apple's tablet UI, but something as complex as MacOS is going to be a lot harder to take in the other direction without turning into Windows 8.
Whatever Apple's solution is to avoid making the Mac into a "fridge-toaster" will be unveiled alongside the new hardware, and I'm quite curious what it will be.
iOS developers use the iPhone Simulator everyday to build their apps.
It doesn't require a touchscreen and I would be very surprised if any apps are unusable without it.
It doesn't require a touchscreen and I would be very surprised if any apps are unusable without it.
>retreat from a universal touch-and-pointer UI in Windows 8
Huh? What? Doesn't everything bit of hardware Microsoft sells have a touchscreen? Windows 10 has solid touchscreen support. Why are we talking about Windows 8 or a retreat?
Huh? What? Doesn't everything bit of hardware Microsoft sells have a touchscreen? Windows 10 has solid touchscreen support. Why are we talking about Windows 8 or a retreat?
Windows 8 was launched with a primary touch interface that emerged after closing apps, even if they were "desktop" apps. 8.1 retreated somewhat but Windows 10 went even further back to the default point-and-click Start Menu interface, while retaining touch elements like tiles, and introducing some other touch-friendly changes. Compared to 8 at launch it's much friendlier to the mouse and keyboard users.
I think it's been accepted at face value because all of the component parts are already available to the public: Mac Catalyst already allows iPad apps to be used on the Mac, and XCode's iOS Simulator already runs apps natively (by compiling to Intel rather than ARM).
Apple said stylus's were dumb and no one would want one. Apple Pencil comes out. Touch screen Macbook pro seems like it would never happen, then Big Sur looks like it has touch targets made for fingers. The iPad keyboard dock thing looks very much like microsoft surface, especially the logitech offerings that you know where designed in part of help with Apple. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a Macbook Pro that either swivels all the way around like a Lenovo and has a touch screen.
I think the key point Steve Jobs was making is that you don’t want a stylus as a requirement for interacting with the OS. As someone who used Palm OS, I totally get what he was talking about when iOS was released. A stylus for general interaction was not a good choice.
However for drawing and writing a stylus is very nice. But that is a much smaller user segment than those benefitting from a touch interface.
However for drawing and writing a stylus is very nice. But that is a much smaller user segment than those benefitting from a touch interface.
And, at that time, a mandatory stylus meant (likely) a resistive not capacitive touch screen.
I won't be able to move from Intel to ARM for the foreseeable future because I rely on Bootcamp / Parallels for Windows development, but it will still be interesting to see the new hardware. Big Sur's UI is obviously designed for touch, so I will be shocked if they don't release a touch screen Mac or a tablet that runs macOS. Now that they've worked out how to ship touchscreen Macs, hopefully that means they'll finally offer MacBook Pros without touchbars.
The library of available software will certainly be interesting. I can easily move to ARM, assuming Python, Bash and SSH works, but it would be easier, if I can expect AMD64 emulation/virtualisation in conjuction with Docker. Being able to run ARM based Docker images currently isn’t that useful.
While I would love to see the touchbar go away, I don’t see any use case from a touch screen on laptops, in my line of work. It’s just as much a gimmick as the touchbar, in my case. If they do introduce it, I would hope it’s optional, like the touchbar should be.
While I would love to see the touchbar go away, I don’t see any use case from a touch screen on laptops, in my line of work. It’s just as much a gimmick as the touchbar, in my case. If they do introduce it, I would hope it’s optional, like the touchbar should be.
With Amazon offering cheap high performance ARM hardware in the cloud ARM based docker containers will be very useful in the future.
We'll see of course, but I don't personally find it obvious at all that Big Sur is designed for touch. Or, if so, it's only an incidental byproduct of them applying a consistent style between iOS-iPadOS-macOS as they make it easier to make apps that run across all those platforms. I'll be surprised if macOS hardware gets touch versus iPadOS just growing into more and more of macOS's current roles.
That raises an interesting point: Is it the existence of the iPad Pro that prevents Apple from moving forward on touch screen laptops. Introducing a touch screen MacBook could completely kill the iPad Pro and I'm not sure that Apple want to lose that market.
Still it could be that they still firmly believe that touch screen on laptops are unnecessary and provides a poor user experience, something that I happen to believe that they would be right in.
Still it could be that they still firmly believe that touch screen on laptops are unnecessary and provides a poor user experience, something that I happen to believe that they would be right in.
No there will be no touch screen Mac. People have kept saying this for years, yet it never happens. Why? Because it is a terrible idea, and we don’t want it.
If you want a touch based OS from Apple, then that already exists. It is called iOS.
Why would you want a touch interface on an interface optimized for mouse and keyboard?
You cannot have both. What works well for touch will be terrible with a keyboard/mouse interface.
Microsoft was morons trying to merge the two paradigms. Win 10 is one of the worst OS’s I have used.
If you want a touch based OS from Apple, then that already exists. It is called iOS.
Why would you want a touch interface on an interface optimized for mouse and keyboard?
You cannot have both. What works well for touch will be terrible with a keyboard/mouse interface.
Microsoft was morons trying to merge the two paradigms. Win 10 is one of the worst OS’s I have used.
Apple has already announced ARM-based Macs will support running iOS apps. While they’d technically be usable without a touchscreen, I’d expect the user experience to be quite bad; especially for iOS games.
Lots of iOS games already support gamepads and iOS has supported keyboards and mice for a while now. I'm guessing that developers will be able to support keyboard/mouse once and get it on the iPad and Apple Silicon Macs.
The 16inch MBP has replaced pretty much every laptop at work this year. I know we were holding off because nobody wanted the old keyboard. These will last 3+ years, so Apple have some time to screw around and get software updated while companies stick with old hardware. I hope they announce when they will stop making intel MBPs, as that is the real date when Apple silicon becomes real for most people.
Have people at your work generally been happy with the 16" MBPs?
I had one, top of the line, and I hated it -- it ran crazy hot all the time even when I wasn't doing much of anything. Connected to an external monitor, it would fan up just from surfing ordinary sites with Safari. From lots of googling around it seemed that many, many people had this problem.
I was actually quite thrilled when I was able to send it back to HQ, and am now back to loving my 2014 13" MBP.
Having dealt with those thermal engineering problems, I am both very hopeful for Apple Silicon, and very wary of buying newest-release Macs.
I had one, top of the line, and I hated it -- it ran crazy hot all the time even when I wasn't doing much of anything. Connected to an external monitor, it would fan up just from surfing ordinary sites with Safari. From lots of googling around it seemed that many, many people had this problem.
I was actually quite thrilled when I was able to send it back to HQ, and am now back to loving my 2014 13" MBP.
Having dealt with those thermal engineering problems, I am both very hopeful for Apple Silicon, and very wary of buying newest-release Macs.
I have the i7 and it works well without too much heat/fan noise, even when connected to a 4k monitor. On my team the chatter was the i9 is known to have heat problems.
I would personally love a new Silicon Mac Mini.
I don't need a crazy desktop computer at this point but I already have a 34-inch ultrawide 4K monitor. I'm even willing to try the new system architecture as a computer.
Clearly Apple has considered this at least for the initial developer model. So I'd love if they decide to also put out a consumer one with the final Silicon SOC.
I don't need a crazy desktop computer at this point but I already have a 34-inch ultrawide 4K monitor. I'm even willing to try the new system architecture as a computer.
Clearly Apple has considered this at least for the initial developer model. So I'd love if they decide to also put out a consumer one with the final Silicon SOC.
This is an announcement of an announcement. Those are off topic.
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
It's in companies' (and the websites' who write about them) interest to make it to the trough as many times as possible, but our interest is to wait until there's something new to discuss.
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
It's in companies' (and the websites' who write about them) interest to make it to the trough as many times as possible, but our interest is to wait until there's something new to discuss.
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...
Actually, it is the announcement of an event, many of the HN readers might want to follow. So posting a link that informs about the event seems not to be off-topic to me. I wouldn't want to miss the event so I am happy the link appeared here on HN.
I hear you and yes, that is valuable. We have to optimize for the general case, though. It definitely isn't optimal to have threads like this one, and then another when the actual announcement is made, and then probably another thread when $thing is eventually released.
I’d love a tagging system a la steam game tags where announce-of-announcement was a tag with a community of interested and engaged people who were vetting and tagging and hashing out what it means to be an announcement of an announcement. And then also there could be another community of similarly minded announcement-of-event people, likely with a bit of Venn diagram overlap, operating independently. And so on and so forth.
It's not going to happen. Not "fragmenting" the community, but rather keeping everyone in the same "silo" of topics, is kind of core to the identity of the site. If you want tags, that's a thing Lobste.rs is good at.
Or just ignore posts that don't interest you, it's way easier
Like the lobste.rs tagging system? I'm not sure how popular that would be here, but it might be cool.
There are lots of places to learn about a major Apple event (if anything, it's hard to miss it) that aren't the 30 slots on the HN front page. Yours is a variant of the 'everything is related to everything somehow' rationale with which you can argue anything is on-topic on any form that has topic rules. It's a fun argument but makes for lousy forums.
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I’m hoping for more iOS component integration. Specifically things like a better camera + IR to do face recognition. Smaller and lighter devices. Maybe even better waterproofing — doesn’t matter to me but the kids are more careless.
The way the white and blue light comes out of the bite in the apple logo, it's reminiscent of a projector. Apple movies?