The Definitive Guide to Dopamine Fasting 2.0(medium.com)
medium.com
The Definitive Guide to Dopamine Fasting 2.0
https://medium.com/swlh/dopamine-fasting-2-0-the-hot-silicon-valley-trend-7c4dc3ba2213
34 comments
>i.e. wondering what the point of my life is despite it being “good” by most measures
Stephen Pinker uses an example that considering we have some evolutionary development followed by acquisition of rational ability that we tend to rationalize things we acquired through evolution. He uses an example of peacock but I use a different example.
For instance, cats have an evolutionary behavior which makes them cover their leftover food, to hide their tracks from prey (called 'caching'). If you have a cat living in your apartment, then you will see them try to cover their food with imaginary dirt [1].
If Cats developed rational ability, and you asked them why they were doing it on a hardwood floor, they might say "I do it because I give my food back to earth, this helps me procure my next meal", or "I do it because I am thanking the cat gods for giving me that food", or even "because I am cleaning my paws after eating by rubbing them on the ground right next to the bowl" or something other funny like that.
Same thing goes here. Evolutionarily speaking, we evolved to chase food and satiate the hunger. What happens if we are constantly 'full', well evolution doesn't really know much about that. There has been no natural conditions under which a creature is full all the time, however there are situations when a creature is hungry all the time.
If you are going to create a situation in which you're 'full' all the time (as you described 'good by most measures'), then you're pushing your mind in an uncomfortable situation where it doesn't know what to do. It's like if earthquake survivor sniffing dogs don't catch survivors for some time then they get depressed, so their handler has to make them sniff out fake survivors to make them feel better.
In a nutshell, you've eliminated your hunger, and now your mind doesn't know what to do. Reintroduce hunger. Not necessarily literally, but it would be the easiest, most practical way of doing it. I've been facing a similar problem for past few years, and my solution was to leave the comforts of the first world as an immediate measure and it made a big difference.
1. https://youtu.be/vxpe3V0pspM
Stephen Pinker uses an example that considering we have some evolutionary development followed by acquisition of rational ability that we tend to rationalize things we acquired through evolution. He uses an example of peacock but I use a different example.
For instance, cats have an evolutionary behavior which makes them cover their leftover food, to hide their tracks from prey (called 'caching'). If you have a cat living in your apartment, then you will see them try to cover their food with imaginary dirt [1].
If Cats developed rational ability, and you asked them why they were doing it on a hardwood floor, they might say "I do it because I give my food back to earth, this helps me procure my next meal", or "I do it because I am thanking the cat gods for giving me that food", or even "because I am cleaning my paws after eating by rubbing them on the ground right next to the bowl" or something other funny like that.
Same thing goes here. Evolutionarily speaking, we evolved to chase food and satiate the hunger. What happens if we are constantly 'full', well evolution doesn't really know much about that. There has been no natural conditions under which a creature is full all the time, however there are situations when a creature is hungry all the time.
If you are going to create a situation in which you're 'full' all the time (as you described 'good by most measures'), then you're pushing your mind in an uncomfortable situation where it doesn't know what to do. It's like if earthquake survivor sniffing dogs don't catch survivors for some time then they get depressed, so their handler has to make them sniff out fake survivors to make them feel better.
In a nutshell, you've eliminated your hunger, and now your mind doesn't know what to do. Reintroduce hunger. Not necessarily literally, but it would be the easiest, most practical way of doing it. I've been facing a similar problem for past few years, and my solution was to leave the comforts of the first world as an immediate measure and it made a big difference.
1. https://youtu.be/vxpe3V0pspM
> my solution was to leave the comforts of the first world as an immediate measure and it made a big difference.
Can you elaborate on that? How did you manage to leave first world comforts behind while also maintaining a career that requires daily computer use?
Can you elaborate on that? How did you manage to leave first world comforts behind while also maintaining a career that requires daily computer use?
We moved to Puerto Rico.
Suddenly there's this worry of making sure that I need to have mechanisms in place to deal with an unreliable electrical grid, unreliable internet (due to the unreliable electrical grid).
Then, there's hurricane season, initially I dealt with it by flying out to mainland anytime there was a hurricane on the horizon. Next year I started to 'prepare' more for the future (water tanks, food, generator, gas storage) etc.
This year was crazier than ever, we got hit by an earthquake. And believe it or not, it made us feel 'alive' (and other mainland families on the island were reporting similar things). Just as we were sorta done making preparation for the earthquake, Covid-19 arrived at the horizon, but I was prepared this time. We ordered survival food, solar cooker, buttloads of sanitizer (which became useless because we decided to use gloves instead) etc.
Also got a gun permit and got into guns. I aim to start carrying it once life resumes.
You may find many or all these measures ridiculous or unnecessary, and you may not have to do these exact things, but whatever you need to do to 'feel that hunger', will appear ridiculous and unnecessary to you.
Suddenly there's this worry of making sure that I need to have mechanisms in place to deal with an unreliable electrical grid, unreliable internet (due to the unreliable electrical grid).
Then, there's hurricane season, initially I dealt with it by flying out to mainland anytime there was a hurricane on the horizon. Next year I started to 'prepare' more for the future (water tanks, food, generator, gas storage) etc.
This year was crazier than ever, we got hit by an earthquake. And believe it or not, it made us feel 'alive' (and other mainland families on the island were reporting similar things). Just as we were sorta done making preparation for the earthquake, Covid-19 arrived at the horizon, but I was prepared this time. We ordered survival food, solar cooker, buttloads of sanitizer (which became useless because we decided to use gloves instead) etc.
Also got a gun permit and got into guns. I aim to start carrying it once life resumes.
You may find many or all these measures ridiculous or unnecessary, and you may not have to do these exact things, but whatever you need to do to 'feel that hunger', will appear ridiculous and unnecessary to you.
"so I can align my downtime activities more closely with my values and things that actually bring me meaning and joy. "
Jesus. This hit a nerve with me. I've been thinking this for ages but did not put it in words. My problem is I feel so exhausted from work my down can only be meaningless. I'm also plagued with work thoughts on down time. The bits of the system I got handed to me I don't understand. The domain knowledge I lack. The things that might break. Honestly I tend to drink to shut it off.
Jesus. This hit a nerve with me. I've been thinking this for ages but did not put it in words. My problem is I feel so exhausted from work my down can only be meaningless. I'm also plagued with work thoughts on down time. The bits of the system I got handed to me I don't understand. The domain knowledge I lack. The things that might break. Honestly I tend to drink to shut it off.
Hi! Your first paragraph exactly describes my life now. I couldn’t write it any better. It resonated so much, I had to create this throwaway account (my account is essentially my real name, I am a bit uncomfortable discussing mental health on a public space in non-anonymous form).
How do you exit from this state?
I would be so, so grateful if you could answer (if you know the answer) here or at isitdopamine on Gmail.
Psychotherapy doesn’t help much, even though I plan on allowing more time for it, I know it takes time!
How do you exit from this state?
I would be so, so grateful if you could answer (if you know the answer) here or at isitdopamine on Gmail.
Psychotherapy doesn’t help much, even though I plan on allowing more time for it, I know it takes time!
As someone who's experienced something very similar, I've built a theory around why it happens:
1. The floating from task to task is almost always avoidant behavior. The experience is usually accompanied by a "slippery" thought -- something you don't want to think about, something that makes you feel sick or causes you stress, and so your thoughts are trying to latch onto something to distract them.
2. One solution is to eliminate distractions, rest calmly in yourself, and practice mindful attention. Meditate. Engage rationally with the slippery thought. Or just observe it, practice letting it happen without interrupting it. Teach yourself: that thought is not to be feared.
3. The long-term solution is to resolve the concerns that your slippery thoughts are related to. For example, In the case of the person you replied to, they mentioned this phrase: "thoughts that center around a perceived lack of meaning in my life." In that case, there might be actual life changes that you can make to introduce a greater sense of meaning. On the other hand, if the underlying thought is "I have a presentation tomorrow," that's a case where you may want to look at reducing your performance anxiety in general. And so forth.
Of course every case is different, but when this happens to you next I'd strongly recommend looking inward to see if there are any of those slippery, "hot potato" thoughts that you're subconsciously trying to avoid. If so -- I suggest addressing that. If not -- well, maybe you've got a dopamine addiction :)
1. The floating from task to task is almost always avoidant behavior. The experience is usually accompanied by a "slippery" thought -- something you don't want to think about, something that makes you feel sick or causes you stress, and so your thoughts are trying to latch onto something to distract them.
2. One solution is to eliminate distractions, rest calmly in yourself, and practice mindful attention. Meditate. Engage rationally with the slippery thought. Or just observe it, practice letting it happen without interrupting it. Teach yourself: that thought is not to be feared.
3. The long-term solution is to resolve the concerns that your slippery thoughts are related to. For example, In the case of the person you replied to, they mentioned this phrase: "thoughts that center around a perceived lack of meaning in my life." In that case, there might be actual life changes that you can make to introduce a greater sense of meaning. On the other hand, if the underlying thought is "I have a presentation tomorrow," that's a case where you may want to look at reducing your performance anxiety in general. And so forth.
Of course every case is different, but when this happens to you next I'd strongly recommend looking inward to see if there are any of those slippery, "hot potato" thoughts that you're subconsciously trying to avoid. If so -- I suggest addressing that. If not -- well, maybe you've got a dopamine addiction :)
Firstly, I’m glad you’re able to relate but I’m also sorry to hear you go through the same thing. I know from experience it can be incredibly painful and lonely at times.
> How do you exit from this state?
I wish I had a good answer for you. Most of the time I snap out of it through “brute force” by focusing my attention elsewhere. Building and doing things with my hands (like playing an instrument, cleaning around the house, or even playing with LEGO) seem to be the most effective ways for me to overcome it. Some days that works well, and other days I’m right back to my habits after just a few minutes.
Work is also a good distraction for me sometimes because I enjoy what I do, but I spend my day working in front of a screen so sometimes I wonder how much that helps vs hurts.
I think the most important thing I’ve done is just recognize when it’s happening, that way I can at least try to break the pattern. I mostly just take it one day at a time.
> Psychotherapy doesn’t help much, even though I plan on allowing more time for it, I know it takes time!
I’ve been in and out of therapy most of my life since I was a teen (I grew up in a toxic and abusive household so much of my focus has been recovering from that). Some of it has helped but for whatever reason it doesn’t always “stick” like I hope it would. I’ve also tried various medications but my “issues” seem deeply rooted, existential, and not easily overcome by a pill.
I truly hope you find something that works for you! I know it’s not easy but I try to stay optimistic that one day my efforts will prevail and something will give.
> How do you exit from this state?
I wish I had a good answer for you. Most of the time I snap out of it through “brute force” by focusing my attention elsewhere. Building and doing things with my hands (like playing an instrument, cleaning around the house, or even playing with LEGO) seem to be the most effective ways for me to overcome it. Some days that works well, and other days I’m right back to my habits after just a few minutes.
Work is also a good distraction for me sometimes because I enjoy what I do, but I spend my day working in front of a screen so sometimes I wonder how much that helps vs hurts.
I think the most important thing I’ve done is just recognize when it’s happening, that way I can at least try to break the pattern. I mostly just take it one day at a time.
> Psychotherapy doesn’t help much, even though I plan on allowing more time for it, I know it takes time!
I’ve been in and out of therapy most of my life since I was a teen (I grew up in a toxic and abusive household so much of my focus has been recovering from that). Some of it has helped but for whatever reason it doesn’t always “stick” like I hope it would. I’ve also tried various medications but my “issues” seem deeply rooted, existential, and not easily overcome by a pill.
I truly hope you find something that works for you! I know it’s not easy but I try to stay optimistic that one day my efforts will prevail and something will give.
Many, many thanks for your reply!
> Building and doing things with my hands (like playing an instrument, cleaning around the house, or even playing with LEGO) seem to be the most effective ways for me to overcome it.
Same here, even though LEGO can stress me out sometimes! But playing music is always a great source of peace! Reading even, as long as it's fiction. Asimov seems to redirect my attention to a single target, and that helps!
> Work is also a good distraction for me sometimes because I enjoy what I do
This also is the same for me, but there's a minor part (let's say 20% or 30%) of my job that I don't really enjoy, and that really sets me back, every single time...
I will try following your suggestions, and I will focus more on different activities that can distract me in a positive way!
I wish you all the best, and I hope with all my heart that 2021 will bring resolution to your issues!
From you username I would guess that you like Haskell, I also love it! :)
> Building and doing things with my hands (like playing an instrument, cleaning around the house, or even playing with LEGO) seem to be the most effective ways for me to overcome it.
Same here, even though LEGO can stress me out sometimes! But playing music is always a great source of peace! Reading even, as long as it's fiction. Asimov seems to redirect my attention to a single target, and that helps!
> Work is also a good distraction for me sometimes because I enjoy what I do
This also is the same for me, but there's a minor part (let's say 20% or 30%) of my job that I don't really enjoy, and that really sets me back, every single time...
I will try following your suggestions, and I will focus more on different activities that can distract me in a positive way!
I wish you all the best, and I hope with all my heart that 2021 will bring resolution to your issues!
From you username I would guess that you like Haskell, I also love it! :)
>wondering what the point of my life is despite it being “good” by most measures
It may be time to reconsider what measures you're using to assess your life, and whether they're still valid for you.
It may be time to reconsider what measures you're using to assess your life, and whether they're still valid for you.
I think that statement is fair and part of the anxiety/depression I feel. I grew up in a family of poor drug addicts, so I've tied a lot of my notions about success and a "good" life to things like financial security and stability. I've mostly achieved those things but now I'm left with "bigger" questions about what my life means and how I can contribute to the world.
To your last point, if it is possible for drug addicts and alcoholics to overcome decade long compulsive behavior, there is no reason you can’t too.
If you are genuinely clear as to your values and what gives you meaning then mostly it would be a case of building new habits. I’ve found B.J. Fogg’s Tiny Habits to be really effective for that.
One other thing worth mentioning is that you might be beating yourself up for not being productive in your spare time, which is particularly self defeating since the feeling of guilt will lead to more of the avoidance behavior. If you are tired after a full days work maybe start by planning more meaningful ways to relax, like watching a good movie, taking a bath or reading a book.
Finally make sure you are actually pursuing happiness in the right place. Laurie Santos’s podcast on happiness is well worth a listen (and is conveniently also a relaxing thing to listen to in your spare time :-)
If you are genuinely clear as to your values and what gives you meaning then mostly it would be a case of building new habits. I’ve found B.J. Fogg’s Tiny Habits to be really effective for that.
One other thing worth mentioning is that you might be beating yourself up for not being productive in your spare time, which is particularly self defeating since the feeling of guilt will lead to more of the avoidance behavior. If you are tired after a full days work maybe start by planning more meaningful ways to relax, like watching a good movie, taking a bath or reading a book.
Finally make sure you are actually pursuing happiness in the right place. Laurie Santos’s podcast on happiness is well worth a listen (and is conveniently also a relaxing thing to listen to in your spare time :-)
> To your last point, if it is possible for drug addicts and alcoholics to overcome decade long compulsive behavior, there is no reason you can’t too.
Agreed. It certainly feels impossible but I know rationally that it isn't. That being said, bridging the rational knowing vs the emotional feeling is always a challenge, especially with behaviors that are compulsive.
> One other thing worth mentioning is that you might be beating yourself up for not being productive in your spare time, which is particularly self defeating since the feeling of guilt will lead to more of the avoidance behavior
It's interesting that you mention this because I do carry a lot of guilt when I'm not working or learning something, which definitely tends to exacerbate the avoidant behavior and make me more likely to engage in it. I have a very hard time accepting that something like watching a movie, reading a (non-work) book, or playing a video game is "worthwhile", because it feels like it's not "productive". It's something I'm definitely working on, however.
Agreed. It certainly feels impossible but I know rationally that it isn't. That being said, bridging the rational knowing vs the emotional feeling is always a challenge, especially with behaviors that are compulsive.
> One other thing worth mentioning is that you might be beating yourself up for not being productive in your spare time, which is particularly self defeating since the feeling of guilt will lead to more of the avoidance behavior
It's interesting that you mention this because I do carry a lot of guilt when I'm not working or learning something, which definitely tends to exacerbate the avoidant behavior and make me more likely to engage in it. I have a very hard time accepting that something like watching a movie, reading a (non-work) book, or playing a video game is "worthwhile", because it feels like it's not "productive". It's something I'm definitely working on, however.
May I suggest two framings that might help?
The first is that the option of being permanently productive doesn’t seem to be open to you, at least not right now. The bit that makes compulsive behavior so hard to get rid of is that it bypasses the executive circuits of the brain, and if you are fighting on two fronts by trying to do reestablish rational control AND strong arming yourself into doing something productive in a state of exhaustion then it is even harder.
So realistically at the moment the choice is between meaningful downtime and endless YouTubes (or whatever your rabbit hole of choice is). Once you have reestablished executive control then you can consider reintroducing productive activities.
The second reframing is to view culture and social interactions as learning about the human condition. You’re still growing your brain, just not in a way that is directly applicable to your professional life.
And in any case: No one should go through life without having read War and Peace :-)
The first is that the option of being permanently productive doesn’t seem to be open to you, at least not right now. The bit that makes compulsive behavior so hard to get rid of is that it bypasses the executive circuits of the brain, and if you are fighting on two fronts by trying to do reestablish rational control AND strong arming yourself into doing something productive in a state of exhaustion then it is even harder.
So realistically at the moment the choice is between meaningful downtime and endless YouTubes (or whatever your rabbit hole of choice is). Once you have reestablished executive control then you can consider reintroducing productive activities.
The second reframing is to view culture and social interactions as learning about the human condition. You’re still growing your brain, just not in a way that is directly applicable to your professional life.
And in any case: No one should go through life without having read War and Peace :-)
Had to log in to read; didn’t read.
You get a certain number of free paid articles each month.
Don't be mad that a paid service is offering things for free and you're unable to abuse it.
Don't be mad that a paid service is offering things for free and you're unable to abuse it.
[deleted]
I’m not mad, but I stopped using it when it became clear that Medium was just another content farm play.
Perhaps I could have more directly asked for a summary, but some very patient soul knew what I was after and replied. Thanks, internet stranger!
Perhaps I could have more directly asked for a summary, but some very patient soul knew what I was after and replied. Thanks, internet stranger!
Just use incognito
TL;DR
"Use Apps to block apps on a schedule, and for everything else you're addicted to that's not an app, like emotional eating or problem gambling, try just not doing it"
"Use Apps to block apps on a schedule, and for everything else you're addicted to that's not an app, like emotional eating or problem gambling, try just not doing it"
Thanks for the summary. I deleted my Medium account because I kept getting sucked into Medium.
140k is a far cry from "viral worldwide" ...
Please, if you're actually struggling, go talk to a professional instead.
They can help you figure out how you can actually feel better for far longer than just the 2 days you'll keep up with this unsubstantiated "fast".
They can help you figure out how you can actually feel better for far longer than just the 2 days you'll keep up with this unsubstantiated "fast".
I guess "asceticism" wouldn't sound scientific enough?
Sounds like ordinary fasting to me, except the concrete details, in the abstract sense it’s the same. Many Christian churches recommend phone / internet / computer fasting or just fasting from anything that occupies your mind daily
This is such non-advice.
"That thing you're addicted to... just... don't do it for a while"
Riiiiiiiiiiiight.
They claim it's not a tech-bro thing, but it's got repackaged tech-bro BS written all over it.
If you need CBT then get CBT. Not this do it yourself nonsense. If you could do it yourself you wouldn't have a problem.
"That thing you're addicted to... just... don't do it for a while"
Riiiiiiiiiiiight.
They claim it's not a tech-bro thing, but it's got repackaged tech-bro BS written all over it.
If you need CBT then get CBT. Not this do it yourself nonsense. If you could do it yourself you wouldn't have a problem.
The author is a licensed practicing psychologist and a assistant professor at UCSF School of Psychiatry. He generally focuses on evidence based methods including CBT.
Your skepticism, while warranted, is dismissive and throws the baby out of the bathwater - tech bros do a lot of faddish things but not everything tech bros do is a fad.
Dopamine fasting, which is in a way repackaged mindfulness, will be around for a long time after tech-bros have moved on. I highly recommend you try it before you dismiss it.
Your skepticism, while warranted, is dismissive and throws the baby out of the bathwater - tech bros do a lot of faddish things but not everything tech bros do is a fad.
Dopamine fasting, which is in a way repackaged mindfulness, will be around for a long time after tech-bros have moved on. I highly recommend you try it before you dismiss it.
Yes, it is dismissive. That's because I'm not seeing anything new. Block apps and use CBT. Got it. Dopamine fasting seems little more than a patently absurd misnomer.
I've done this stuff numerous times in my life and it already goes to by the name "digital detox" more or less. It also was always only a temporary thing. Nothing life changing. Good and refreshing every once in a while. Heck, just get out and go camping.
I've done this stuff numerous times in my life and it already goes to by the name "digital detox" more or less. It also was always only a temporary thing. Nothing life changing. Good and refreshing every once in a while. Heck, just get out and go camping.
The framing you have of "life changing" could be the issue. There is rarely an intervention that is life changing - be it exercise, good eating habits or otherwise. One has to observe dopamine fasting to an extent everyday - no phones 2 hours before sleep, only 30 mins on SM, etc. to extensive retreats every on a monthly, quarterly to get benefits.
IMHO, dopamine fasting extends beyond digital detox. Digital detox is one application of Dopamine fasting. In an intensive meditation retreat where all communication and gadgets are banned and foods are simple, the senses are enhanced to the point that post retreat simple stimuli like a cup of coffee give intense joy.
You seem to be well aware of the benefits of it, the author is just putting it into a formal framework. Camping is a great way to do Dopaine Fasting especially if one avoids talk. A lot of what modern secular science discovers was known to the ancients - I guess in the old days it would be called a prayer retreat :)
IMHO, dopamine fasting extends beyond digital detox. Digital detox is one application of Dopamine fasting. In an intensive meditation retreat where all communication and gadgets are banned and foods are simple, the senses are enhanced to the point that post retreat simple stimuli like a cup of coffee give intense joy.
You seem to be well aware of the benefits of it, the author is just putting it into a formal framework. Camping is a great way to do Dopaine Fasting especially if one avoids talk. A lot of what modern secular science discovers was known to the ancients - I guess in the old days it would be called a prayer retreat :)
>The framing you have of "life changing" could be the issue.
The dumb name is the issue.
The dumb name is the issue.
You can try the original article with no paywall from over a year ago :
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dopamine-fasting-new-silicon-...
I’m curious to see if this approach might be a way to short-circuit that feeling so I can align my downtime activities more closely with my values and things that actually bring me meaning and joy. Sometimes it feels impossible, though, because I’m basically addicted to information by way of the internet. I’ve been using a computer since I was a child and I’m now in my mid-30s, so 30 years of behavior seems incredibly challenging to overcome.