What happens when the CCP decides that you need to die(mattparlmer.substack.com)
mattparlmer.substack.com
What happens when the CCP decides that you need to die
https://mattparlmer.substack.com/p/what-happens-when-the-ccp-decides
181 comments
Dang, there is no other venue to discuss this. There are massive human rights violations currently happening that rival those of Nazi Germany, but most news media and online discussion forums shy away from the topic because China is too economically powerful. We've accepted as a society that certain acts performed by the nazis were an absolute evil. Why then should we not be allowed to discuss similar human rights violations in the present day?
http://reddit.com/r/China and http://reddit.com/r/HongKong seem to be popular and available.
Throwaway because I don’t really want to taint my account with no-good discussions like this. (I’m an HN regular with some 8k karma.)
If you know the Chinese language, go to Weibo and find announcements of rulings on high profile murder cases, rape cases, etc. Most likely you’ll see that people overwhelmingly call for tougher punishment; comments expressing dissatisfaction with non-capital punishment are often voted to the top.
It’s a different culture, the majority or at least an extremely vocal minority (I highly doubt it’s a minority, but that’s a possibility) expect an-eye-for-an-eye punishment for murder as well as some other morally outrageous crimes. You may find it barbaric or whatever, but it’s a different culture.
See also (on the largest Chinese language Q/A site, like Quora):
https://www.zhihu.com/question/25084350 Why do you support capital punishment?
https://www.zhihu.com/question/25084336 Why do you oppose capital punishment in China?
You can gauge the relative popularity of opinions from the stats alone. Mind you, the user base of that site is relatively well-educated and progressive.
If you know the Chinese language, go to Weibo and find announcements of rulings on high profile murder cases, rape cases, etc. Most likely you’ll see that people overwhelmingly call for tougher punishment; comments expressing dissatisfaction with non-capital punishment are often voted to the top.
It’s a different culture, the majority or at least an extremely vocal minority (I highly doubt it’s a minority, but that’s a possibility) expect an-eye-for-an-eye punishment for murder as well as some other morally outrageous crimes. You may find it barbaric or whatever, but it’s a different culture.
See also (on the largest Chinese language Q/A site, like Quora):
https://www.zhihu.com/question/25084350 Why do you support capital punishment?
https://www.zhihu.com/question/25084336 Why do you oppose capital punishment in China?
You can gauge the relative popularity of opinions from the stats alone. Mind you, the user base of that site is relatively well-educated and progressive.
> If you know the Chinese language, go to Weibo and find announcements of rulings on high profile murder cases, rape cases, etc. Most likely you’ll see that people overwhelmingly call for tougher punishment; comments expressing dissatisfaction with non-capital punishment are often voted to the top.
You can see this on reddit too for american crimes.
You can see this on reddit too for american crimes.
How about for "crimes" such protesting for democracy?
Even though the article’s claims are not sourced, I don’t see any mention of “protesting for democracy”, or protest of any kind. It’s just talking about executions in general. The first picture features a criminal with a “murderer” sign hanging from her neck. The video doesn’t have much context. The second picture is a stock photo from an article about global executions on the decline. The third group of photos have an outgoing link with invalid cert so I didn’t proceed (who knows if it’s rigged with malware). Did I miss anything?
Not talking about the article, just asking for your insight that you have by looking at Weibo. Just wanted to know if there are cases of political dissent announced, and if so, what are their reactions.
Disclosure: I don’t frequent Weibo. The conclusions I posted above come from a general understanding after having lived and worked in China for a significant period of time, plus some personal investigations into Weibo and other major Chinese social media services (e.g. Baidu Tieba, which was the top dog of a bygone age) after discussing such topics with Western friends in the past. I’m very confident in my conclusion that the death penalty is very welcome in China, random hearsay and conversation stoppers like “but social credit points” be damned (that’s a whole other topic I don’t want to get into).
With that out of way, I can objectively say that I’ve never seen cases of political dissent announced anywhere. If you ask me, I’d say such cases, if there are any, wouldn’t be publicized. Additionally, if there were to be such cases, I suspect (private) opinions would be more divided than murder cases but still tilt the “wrong” way. By my observations, people tend to sympathize with little guys adversely affected by corrupt officials or big corps, and you can see that kind of stories retweeted on social media, a lot, as people love to “spread the word to get the attention of higher-ups”; but “human rights activists” are usually met with sneer. The high profile activists tend to be the butt of jokes in my experience.
With that out of way, I can objectively say that I’ve never seen cases of political dissent announced anywhere. If you ask me, I’d say such cases, if there are any, wouldn’t be publicized. Additionally, if there were to be such cases, I suspect (private) opinions would be more divided than murder cases but still tilt the “wrong” way. By my observations, people tend to sympathize with little guys adversely affected by corrupt officials or big corps, and you can see that kind of stories retweeted on social media, a lot, as people love to “spread the word to get the attention of higher-ups”; but “human rights activists” are usually met with sneer. The high profile activists tend to be the butt of jokes in my experience.
Opening line:
> The PRC executes between five and ten thousand people per year
Anyone got a source for that claim? Amnesty estimates "1000's" but doesn't actually give a figure and claims to not know it. I'm guessing the worlds biggest human rights org would love to know Matt from substack's source?
For comparison we have the Saudis, Iraq, Egypt and Iran coming in with a few hundred executions each while certain other allied countries refuse to publish and are also hidden away behind government secrecy.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/death-penalty/
> The PRC executes between five and ten thousand people per year
Anyone got a source for that claim? Amnesty estimates "1000's" but doesn't actually give a figure and claims to not know it. I'm guessing the worlds biggest human rights org would love to know Matt from substack's source?
For comparison we have the Saudis, Iraq, Egypt and Iran coming in with a few hundred executions each while certain other allied countries refuse to publish and are also hidden away behind government secrecy.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/death-penalty/
The figure comes from the source of the photos: https://www.friendsoftibet.org/main/execution.html
All I have to say about this is that China, the supposed epicenter of Covid, apparently stopped having any new cases at about 100k.
GDP is about the only thing we can measure objectively from this country, and air pollution when we point our satellites at them.
GDP is about the only thing we can measure objectively from this country, and air pollution when we point our satellites at them.
Given the absolute infallibility of the state in China, I suspect they declared "war won" and just stopped reporting any spread.
Run society like nothing is going on.
There's a reason NK and China made sure there were televised cities with people packed like sardines.
Run society like nothing is going on.
There's a reason NK and China made sure there were televised cities with people packed like sardines.
If Amnesty International estimates it to be "1000s", which I think we can agree is a reputable source, and the Chinese government is extremely restrictive in news and data that it releases, it's quite possible it could be 5,000 people a year. What's unknown is if they still charge your family for the bullet.
> I'm guessing the worlds biggest human rights org would love to know Matt from substack's source?
I would guess ramblings from some dark Falun Gong blog, as clearly he has no issues quoting them elsewhere on the piece, which on my eyes for as gruesome as the topic might be takes a huge amount of credibility away of him and the piece
I would guess ramblings from some dark Falun Gong blog, as clearly he has no issues quoting them elsewhere on the piece, which on my eyes for as gruesome as the topic might be takes a huge amount of credibility away of him and the piece
These are the kind of numbers and narrative Tibetan/FLG NGOs from the west throws out. Read: outdated propaganda from a bunch of exiles from 20-30 years ago stuck in "immigrant time bubble" where their impressions of the country is locked in a outdated reality. Which more or less summarizes this entire article and most ridiculous amateur CCP bad analysis regurgitated by western "enthusiasts".
It's like whenever people insinuate Tianamen 2.0 will repeat for xyz events like China is trapped in some pre reform time bubble in terms of culture and capabilities. Somehow a modern China with 14T economy is going to have deal with problems the same way as post war China with 200B economy. I've never seen so many seemingly intelligent people go full smooth brain on this subject matter including in this thread. It's particularly hilarious to see people claim their very smart PhD Chinese colleagues being brainwashed, when theses colleagues have experience in both east and west - they're not the ones with singular perspective and the information deficit. It's not their brain washing, it's yours. Chinese diaspora reciprocate stories of how brainwashed their western coworkers are.. Queue reactionary 50c accusations when 50c doesn't operate in English inside or outside GFC.
China is ~50X wealthier since 89, a wealthier China with riot gear and information control doesn't need to Tianamen dissidents haphazardly. A wealthier China with lethal injection doesn't need to shoot people in back of head in open fields and bill family for bullet, nor execute as many when it's economical to lock them away. Which is largely what happens outside of most egregious crimes / drug smuggling charges. Not to mention much of China executes XYZ for bullshit reasons media reporting turns out to be China sentences person to "death sentence with reprieve" - a symbolic sentence that's functionally life imprisonment. Things aren't the best, but they are generally trending in the right direction.
It's like whenever people insinuate Tianamen 2.0 will repeat for xyz events like China is trapped in some pre reform time bubble in terms of culture and capabilities. Somehow a modern China with 14T economy is going to have deal with problems the same way as post war China with 200B economy. I've never seen so many seemingly intelligent people go full smooth brain on this subject matter including in this thread. It's particularly hilarious to see people claim their very smart PhD Chinese colleagues being brainwashed, when theses colleagues have experience in both east and west - they're not the ones with singular perspective and the information deficit. It's not their brain washing, it's yours. Chinese diaspora reciprocate stories of how brainwashed their western coworkers are.. Queue reactionary 50c accusations when 50c doesn't operate in English inside or outside GFC.
China is ~50X wealthier since 89, a wealthier China with riot gear and information control doesn't need to Tianamen dissidents haphazardly. A wealthier China with lethal injection doesn't need to shoot people in back of head in open fields and bill family for bullet, nor execute as many when it's economical to lock them away. Which is largely what happens outside of most egregious crimes / drug smuggling charges. Not to mention much of China executes XYZ for bullshit reasons media reporting turns out to be China sentences person to "death sentence with reprieve" - a symbolic sentence that's functionally life imprisonment. Things aren't the best, but they are generally trending in the right direction.
> It's not their brain washing, it's yours.
The main difference I found between China- and Western-style brainwashing is that, in general, in the West people have much more negative attitude toward killing others, no matter what narrative is presented. Whenever USA tries to wage a war, there are many demonstrations against the war, and societies at large are anti-war and opposed to all forms of killing.
The Chinese, on the other hand, seem to believe in consequentialism to a larger degree. They argue that sometimes killing is necessary to prevent more killing, for example. This is presented in a way very accessible for a Western person in the wuxia Hero (2002) where it is the main point of the movie.
All in, I consider the Chinese more brainwashed because Western people have access to all kinds of propaganda - American right & left, Russian, Chinese - whereas the Chinese have much more limited sources because the government is putting an enormous amount of effort in controlling the sources of information, and given the size of the population, they're extremely successful.
The main difference I found between China- and Western-style brainwashing is that, in general, in the West people have much more negative attitude toward killing others, no matter what narrative is presented. Whenever USA tries to wage a war, there are many demonstrations against the war, and societies at large are anti-war and opposed to all forms of killing.
The Chinese, on the other hand, seem to believe in consequentialism to a larger degree. They argue that sometimes killing is necessary to prevent more killing, for example. This is presented in a way very accessible for a Western person in the wuxia Hero (2002) where it is the main point of the movie.
All in, I consider the Chinese more brainwashed because Western people have access to all kinds of propaganda - American right & left, Russian, Chinese - whereas the Chinese have much more limited sources because the government is putting an enormous amount of effort in controlling the sources of information, and given the size of the population, they're extremely successful.
Don't forget Chinese "peaceful expansion" which is just another way of saying "We're going to come over and set up in your backyard, and if you don't like it, you're just causing aggression." The Chinese government is the most opaque and two-faced system in the world. At least in America we (almsot always) give you a trial before we kill you.
Chinese/PRC "peaceful expansion" is resolving 12/14 (most) land border disputes with the most concessions, in shortest time period in human history. Chinese "peaceful expansion" is also being the 2nd last out of 6 claimants to conduct land reclamation or weaponize features in South China Sea disputes. Chinese "peaceful expansion" is _INHERITING_ all these disputes from ROC (Taiwan) i.e. they are not dispute of CCP's making, but hand me down disputes that must be resolved somehow... which China has done mostly diplomatically so far, with minimal blood shed.
Without exaggeration, PRC ascent and border resolution is unprecedentedly peaceful relative to human history. In terms of modern dispute management, it's has been the most peaceful. Japan has disputes with 5/5 her maritime neighbours. And she's an island.
> At least in America we (almsot always) give you a trial before we kill you.
lol what is this, modern China has trials too. Maybe one day China's foreign policy will use paperwork to make enhanced interrogation not torture, and droning combatants not random civilians.
Without exaggeration, PRC ascent and border resolution is unprecedentedly peaceful relative to human history. In terms of modern dispute management, it's has been the most peaceful. Japan has disputes with 5/5 her maritime neighbours. And she's an island.
> At least in America we (almsot always) give you a trial before we kill you.
lol what is this, modern China has trials too. Maybe one day China's foreign policy will use paperwork to make enhanced interrogation not torture, and droning combatants not random civilians.
Please keep nationalistic flamewar off this site, regardless of how right your country is or you feel it is. Comments like this are a major step into the hell we're trying to avoid here.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
>consequentialism
Moral calculus is clearer when growing up without basic needs met. But more or less.
>access to all kinds of propaganda
Access to information does not make one more informed. Chinese who live through daily propaganda inherently understands nature of propaganda. Very few trust official news sources. Outside extremely partisan media platforms, western manufactured consent is more subtle and sinister. Most global south diaspora in the west will tell you how absolutely bullshit western reporting is in general, a free fifth estate is frequently seemingly indistinguishable from state propaganda from those who know it intimately.
It's a matter of comprehension. There are more Chinese diaspora multilingual Chinese with English fluency able to share news from across the wall. You can't say the same about anglosphere and Chinese information literacy. The amount of absolutely ignorant western commentary on China is staggering, where as Chinese net actually has western perspectives that somewhat comport with reality.
Chinese information control doesn't generate brainwashed people as much as create political disengagement. The more ideology Xi pushes the less believers there are are outside of the inevitable proportion of fierce nationalists / new generation of little pinks. But much of CHinese society skew old, have through Mao/Deng - they've experienced the spectrum of propaganda and understands when the levers are being adjusted.
Modern western ecosystem generate extreme dogmatism without media literacy. Too many think access to information is the same as being informed. The debates people have on the effects of social media are similar lessons learned through the "lived" propaganda experience of just growing up in China. Recognition of the issue frequently doesn't generalize outside of the domestic realm, i.e. China issues. The fact that this story, a substack post by a non-subject matter expert using biased sources is generating this much engagement is more or less illustrative of the point.
Moral calculus is clearer when growing up without basic needs met. But more or less.
>access to all kinds of propaganda
Access to information does not make one more informed. Chinese who live through daily propaganda inherently understands nature of propaganda. Very few trust official news sources. Outside extremely partisan media platforms, western manufactured consent is more subtle and sinister. Most global south diaspora in the west will tell you how absolutely bullshit western reporting is in general, a free fifth estate is frequently seemingly indistinguishable from state propaganda from those who know it intimately.
It's a matter of comprehension. There are more Chinese diaspora multilingual Chinese with English fluency able to share news from across the wall. You can't say the same about anglosphere and Chinese information literacy. The amount of absolutely ignorant western commentary on China is staggering, where as Chinese net actually has western perspectives that somewhat comport with reality.
Chinese information control doesn't generate brainwashed people as much as create political disengagement. The more ideology Xi pushes the less believers there are are outside of the inevitable proportion of fierce nationalists / new generation of little pinks. But much of CHinese society skew old, have through Mao/Deng - they've experienced the spectrum of propaganda and understands when the levers are being adjusted.
Modern western ecosystem generate extreme dogmatism without media literacy. Too many think access to information is the same as being informed. The debates people have on the effects of social media are similar lessons learned through the "lived" propaganda experience of just growing up in China. Recognition of the issue frequently doesn't generalize outside of the domestic realm, i.e. China issues. The fact that this story, a substack post by a non-subject matter expert using biased sources is generating this much engagement is more or less illustrative of the point.
Please make your points without crossing into flamewar accusations and name-calling ("brainwashing", "ridiculous amateur CCP bad analysis regurgitated"). You're badly breaking the site guidelines when you do these things, and it sadly also guarantees that what you say won't be heard by anyone except the people who already strongly agree with you. That's not conversation.
This is a highly emotional topic on both sides, and that makes it more important to follow the rules, not less: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
I know all too well what you're experiencing from "seemingly intelligent people", but fulminating not only doesn't help, it reinforces the very things you're complaining about. We all do this, and in that sense we're all creating our own enemies. It's a trap and it takes a lot of work to even begin to become aware of it, but what choice do we have? Certainly if HN is to be a place where people have curious conversation, everyone needs to work on this.
This is a highly emotional topic on both sides, and that makes it more important to follow the rules, not less: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
I know all too well what you're experiencing from "seemingly intelligent people", but fulminating not only doesn't help, it reinforces the very things you're complaining about. We all do this, and in that sense we're all creating our own enemies. It's a trap and it takes a lot of work to even begin to become aware of it, but what choice do we have? Certainly if HN is to be a place where people have curious conversation, everyone needs to work on this.
> Anyone got a source for that claim?
We will probably never know the real number. Please also remember we have under-estimated for a very long time the victims of the Soviet Union until we found out more about the gulags and all other repressive systems they had in place.
We will probably never know the real number. Please also remember we have under-estimated for a very long time the victims of the Soviet Union until we found out more about the gulags and all other repressive systems they had in place.
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> We will probably never know the real number.
So then why use such numbers, when there's no expectation of accuracy?
My high school teachers would have been rather upset at me had I been so liberal with facts
So then why use such numbers, when there's no expectation of accuracy?
My high school teachers would have been rather upset at me had I been so liberal with facts
Because it can establish a lower bound. When we say "we'll never know the real number", we are saying "the real number is at least X, but it could be a lot more". If X is already high in our eyes, it can be useful for providing a view on the true magnitude of the problem.
> So then why use such numbers, when there's no expectation of accuracy?
The exact number is not important when considering the massive scale.
The exact number is not important when considering the massive scale.
The warning at the top of this article did not prepare me for the images, so I'll offer an additional one: the images are more disturbing than you think. Consider turning images off to read the content.
Maybe the thing is that we are so conditioned by having half assed censored media pictures and quotes like its graphic, that when someone finally delivers on it, we just get shocked. This is how it looks like when someone head gets blown off.
Let me put it bluntly. There is a closeup of a woman with only half a head. It comes as a surprise as the first images are not as bad, and the article's content draws you in. I had to stop there even though I wanted to continue reading.
Personally, the images themselves do not particularly upset me. Maybe regretfully, but I have seen enough of the actual results of armed conflicts. Personally, I think the images of mass murders with piles of death (often naked) people from WW2 far more disturbing.
However, you do correctly point out how this article appears to draw people in and then goes for maximum shock effect. I'm sure that whoever created this article did that on purpose. Even if the cited numbers happen to be accurate, this kind of tactic is rather typical for propaganda. The same can be said about producing "facts" that are either hard or impossible to verify.
To be clear: I am not saying that this is propaganda, but it does at least raise a few red flags about potentially being just that. Further research needed.
EDIT: to be even more clear: I have no doubt that the CCP have committed horrible crimes. But that will not make me just believe whatever somebody might write about it.
However, you do correctly point out how this article appears to draw people in and then goes for maximum shock effect. I'm sure that whoever created this article did that on purpose. Even if the cited numbers happen to be accurate, this kind of tactic is rather typical for propaganda. The same can be said about producing "facts" that are either hard or impossible to verify.
To be clear: I am not saying that this is propaganda, but it does at least raise a few red flags about potentially being just that. Further research needed.
EDIT: to be even more clear: I have no doubt that the CCP have committed horrible crimes. But that will not make me just believe whatever somebody might write about it.
After that image there's only a closing paragraph anyway, so you didn't miss much.
Did not expect to see an image of someone with their head half blown off.
Trying to find my thoughts on this. The Einsatzgruppen pretty much started the Holocaust via mass shootings (before all other methods). They switched to gas vans (according to this article, China uses this too? What in the fuck) for some vile cognitive gymnastics where they convinced themselves it was too demoralizing for the goons to have to shoot that many people without being drunk all the time (to carry out the deed). They sought a more efficient, less taxing method, and that’s where the gas vans came in.
The Nazis did this to anyone that they could lump into ‘a national threat’ bucket, so Jews that were also communist Russians were instant kill (as opposed to German Jews who initially got put in labor camps).
If the CCP ever decides routine shootings is taxing or inefficient (like the Nazis), things wouldn’t be so far off to having an “efficient” death camp to just handle it en masse.
I tend to always over-fit the Nazi parallels, especially with China, but China’s prime issue is scale. Whatever they do, they must always consider scale.
Crackdowns will happen at scale (Hong Kong), censorship will happen at scale (speech/internet), imprisonment will happen at scale (Uighurs), and mass executions (if we were to ever get the numbers) will happen at scale.
As hard it is to not turn away from that picture in the article, I would sincerely like to know what that woman’s crime was.
Trying to find my thoughts on this. The Einsatzgruppen pretty much started the Holocaust via mass shootings (before all other methods). They switched to gas vans (according to this article, China uses this too? What in the fuck) for some vile cognitive gymnastics where they convinced themselves it was too demoralizing for the goons to have to shoot that many people without being drunk all the time (to carry out the deed). They sought a more efficient, less taxing method, and that’s where the gas vans came in.
The Nazis did this to anyone that they could lump into ‘a national threat’ bucket, so Jews that were also communist Russians were instant kill (as opposed to German Jews who initially got put in labor camps).
If the CCP ever decides routine shootings is taxing or inefficient (like the Nazis), things wouldn’t be so far off to having an “efficient” death camp to just handle it en masse.
I tend to always over-fit the Nazi parallels, especially with China, but China’s prime issue is scale. Whatever they do, they must always consider scale.
Crackdowns will happen at scale (Hong Kong), censorship will happen at scale (speech/internet), imprisonment will happen at scale (Uighurs), and mass executions (if we were to ever get the numbers) will happen at scale.
As hard it is to not turn away from that picture in the article, I would sincerely like to know what that woman’s crime was.
I think the point of the article is that the choice to involve ordinary police officers in the killings is to give them a stake in the current regime (or at least to make them fear the consequences of any other future regime.) I don’t think more organised death camps fit with that motive, but it could be wrong.
The Einsatzgruppen were actually like ordinary police. They were never actually told to create death camps initially, it was just more ... efficient, so Nazi sub leadership switched to that somewhat independently.
This book makes an interesting point about the bottom-up theory of what really started the Holocaust (this is an unforgettable read, I feel like author literally accounted for every death batch (and yes ‘batch’ has to be used due to the scale):
https://www.amazon.com/Bloodlands-Europe-Between-Hitler-Stal...
Basically, it was simple broad directives that got interpreted by these disparate elements of the Nazis in the Eastern front. What does it mean if someone is not only a Jew, but also a communist Russian? Pretty much an instant threat, and forward deployed units liberally interpreted it into mass-killing vs forced labor camps. Once that genie was out of the bottle, you would look unproductive in the regime if you weren’t upping the ante.
What is the CCP creating here? You want units with blood on their hands ratcheting up new and interesting ways of currying favor with the regime? Hey bosses, I found a great new way to promote CCP Authority, forget Uighur camps, get a load of this. Suddenly you have a macabre competition within a peculiar institution that can only become darker if left to find it’s own logical purpose (be the very best ccp you can be, whatever that means, and oh John the guy you started with recently rose the ranks doing this, not saying you should too, but take some initiative).
No master plan, just a dark organic evolution.
This book makes an interesting point about the bottom-up theory of what really started the Holocaust (this is an unforgettable read, I feel like author literally accounted for every death batch (and yes ‘batch’ has to be used due to the scale):
https://www.amazon.com/Bloodlands-Europe-Between-Hitler-Stal...
Basically, it was simple broad directives that got interpreted by these disparate elements of the Nazis in the Eastern front. What does it mean if someone is not only a Jew, but also a communist Russian? Pretty much an instant threat, and forward deployed units liberally interpreted it into mass-killing vs forced labor camps. Once that genie was out of the bottle, you would look unproductive in the regime if you weren’t upping the ante.
What is the CCP creating here? You want units with blood on their hands ratcheting up new and interesting ways of currying favor with the regime? Hey bosses, I found a great new way to promote CCP Authority, forget Uighur camps, get a load of this. Suddenly you have a macabre competition within a peculiar institution that can only become darker if left to find it’s own logical purpose (be the very best ccp you can be, whatever that means, and oh John the guy you started with recently rose the ranks doing this, not saying you should too, but take some initiative).
No master plan, just a dark organic evolution.
> for some vile cognitive gymnastics where they convinced themselves it was too demoralizing for the goons to have to shoot that many people without being drunk all the time
Sadly mental gymnastics seem to do their work often enough. For example firing squad style executions also tend to use mental gymnastics, by introducing blank rounds the individual members of the squad are no longer certain that they will fire the lethal shot, making them less hesitant to aim and shoot correctly.
Sadly mental gymnastics seem to do their work often enough. For example firing squad style executions also tend to use mental gymnastics, by introducing blank rounds the individual members of the squad are no longer certain that they will fire the lethal shot, making them less hesitant to aim and shoot correctly.
> imprisonment will happen at scale (Uighurs),
Not just imprisonment, mass raping of Uighurs women as well: https://www.insider.com/uighur-activists-mass-rape-chinese-m...
Not just imprisonment, mass raping of Uighurs women as well: https://www.insider.com/uighur-activists-mass-rape-chinese-m...
Turning those images off won't make them disappear from existence nor resurrect the victims. Stop being willfully ignorant - that alone enables any monster out there to do as they wish unaccounted for.
It's important to see the photos to properly absorb the content and message of the article.
This reflex to shield one's self from reality is extremely harmful for society and it's cowardly.
The fact that the images are a 'shock' to some people shows just how disconnected they are from reality. They are powerful images but they should not be shocking... The term 'killing' should already embody these emotions without the images.
The emotions that people feel when looking at these images, that's exactly what 'killing a person' means.
The fact that the images are a 'shock' to some people shows just how disconnected they are from reality. They are powerful images but they should not be shocking... The term 'killing' should already embody these emotions without the images.
The emotions that people feel when looking at these images, that's exactly what 'killing a person' means.
Quite frankly, I suggest the opposite. Most people in the west, and especially in the US, don't appreciate just how evil the CCP is. Our corporate media has given the CCP a free pass on mass murder because many of our wealthiest people have made their fortunes through trade with China. We should all look long and hard at these images so that we don't forget them.
That's a fair take. I've seen plenty of this where I'm from, so I don't really have the stomach for more.
I think you've made a good point.
It is fun to see criticisms of China get insta-downvoted to hell. Mine is fully referenced and went to -1 instantly... there is definitely some real denial about what the CCP actually do.
If you don't have actual evidence of communist agents downvoting your comments, then you're breaking the rules by posting like this. Please review and follow https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html:
"Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email [email protected] and we'll look at the data."
Overwhelmingly, this stuff is just internet-style cloak-and-dagger fantasy, and cheap rhetoric. How do I know that? Because when I look at who the actual users are who make these votes, and I see they were, for example, commenting on HN about Julia in 2015, the odds that they are a communist plant round to zero. This reality is so absolutely remote from what comments like yours are insinuating that it's hard for me to believe that people are willing to go there. Yet here we are, with spies in every closet and foreign agents under every bed. The only word for this is cartoonish.
The truth is that this is a very large, very international community, with millions of users having all sorts of backgrounds and views, and they disagree on divisive topics like China. That is the extremely mundane—albeit emotionally charged—reality of what is going on here. Accusing people who hold different views of being spies and foreign agents is the fastest way to poison the community, so we don't allow it, especially when there isn't a shred of anything resembling evidence to support it.
This entire dynamic is determined by tribal identifications on both sides. That leads people to hate and ultimately want to destroy each other. That's not compatible with the value of this site, which is curiosity. People can't be curious with each other and want to destroy each other at the same time—the nervous system doesn't work that way.
If anyone wants more explanation, there are arbitrary amounts of it at https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme....
"Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email [email protected] and we'll look at the data."
Overwhelmingly, this stuff is just internet-style cloak-and-dagger fantasy, and cheap rhetoric. How do I know that? Because when I look at who the actual users are who make these votes, and I see they were, for example, commenting on HN about Julia in 2015, the odds that they are a communist plant round to zero. This reality is so absolutely remote from what comments like yours are insinuating that it's hard for me to believe that people are willing to go there. Yet here we are, with spies in every closet and foreign agents under every bed. The only word for this is cartoonish.
The truth is that this is a very large, very international community, with millions of users having all sorts of backgrounds and views, and they disagree on divisive topics like China. That is the extremely mundane—albeit emotionally charged—reality of what is going on here. Accusing people who hold different views of being spies and foreign agents is the fastest way to poison the community, so we don't allow it, especially when there isn't a shred of anything resembling evidence to support it.
This entire dynamic is determined by tribal identifications on both sides. That leads people to hate and ultimately want to destroy each other. That's not compatible with the value of this site, which is curiosity. People can't be curious with each other and want to destroy each other at the same time—the nervous system doesn't work that way.
If anyone wants more explanation, there are arbitrary amounts of it at https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme....
> see criticisms of China get insta-downvoted to hell.
Let's dissociate the country from the political apparatus. What's evil is the CCP, not China in itself - it's not like the citizens can vote the current regime out.
Let's dissociate the country from the political apparatus. What's evil is the CCP, not China in itself - it's not like the citizens can vote the current regime out.
I really get extremely tired of this kind of thing. Obviously I mean the CCP when I say 'China'. Why does nobody say this when people criticise other countries?
In nearly all parlance talking about countries you reference those countries directly 'the US invaded Iraq' for e.g.
It's a shorthand for 'the govt of xxx'.
In nearly all parlance talking about countries you reference those countries directly 'the US invaded Iraq' for e.g.
It's a shorthand for 'the govt of xxx'.
> Why does nobody say this when people criticise other countries?
because most other countries we talk about have some kind of representative system where the people actually have a say in who governs them. Of course it's all relative, no representation is ever perfect, but in a dictatorial regime there's no representation at all.
because most other countries we talk about have some kind of representative system where the people actually have a say in who governs them. Of course it's all relative, no representation is ever perfect, but in a dictatorial regime there's no representation at all.
Yeah sure, I mean when people say 'Iran' did X or 'Venezuela' did Y those are fully representative govts that the people can overturn at any point. Oh wait.
Why aren't you saying نظام instead of Iran? Why not 'Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela' instead of Venezuela?
Come on man.
Why aren't you saying نظام instead of Iran? Why not 'Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela' instead of Venezuela?
Come on man.
> Oh wait
You do realize that Iran is a republic right?
They hold legislative and executive branch elections every few years with different political parties and all....
You do realize that Iran is a republic right?
They hold legislative and executive branch elections every few years with different political parties and all....
> , I mean when people say 'Iran' did X or 'Venezuela' did Y those are fully representative govts that the people can overturn at any point.
For Venezuela, people did vote for Chavez in the first place right? Which then made the turn to dictatorship. Which is what you should expect when when you elect a Marxist.
For Venezuela, people did vote for Chavez in the first place right? Which then made the turn to dictatorship. Which is what you should expect when when you elect a Marxist.
it's to separate 'the Chinese people' from 'the CCP'... the Chinese people are the victims, CCP the perpetuators.
A lot of people confuse this distinction, and do racial behaviors thinking they're doing good for the world.
And yes, the same should go for Iran and Venezuela. But it's easy for CCP because they officially made the acronyms by themselves...
And yes, the same should go for Iran and Venezuela. But it's easy for CCP because they officially made the acronyms by themselves...
The name of a place is commonly used synonymously with its governance (e.g. "EU invests $X bn" is on the frontpage right now). It should be clear that it's not referring to the individuals living there.
> (e.g. "EU invests $X bn"
Poor example, EU is not a country and represents a political apparatus, nothing else.
Poor example, EU is not a country and represents a political apparatus, nothing else.
Even with nitpicking you still got the point, so I guess it's good enough.
Calling for shock-porn rather than rationality and discourse is exactly the kind of things that receive downvotes on HN, not sure why you act so surprised
[deleted]
oulu2006(2)
100% this, we buy crap cheaply and in fact we actively seek it out and it's enabled by China. We are all complicit.
We've already asked you not to post nationalistic flamewar comments to HN and you've continued to do it repeatedly. That's not what this site is for, so please stop.
When an account posts like this in various threads:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25583482
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25445883
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25029414
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24855732
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24721883
...it's painfully clear that this is not curious conversation but a pre-existing agenda.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
When an account posts like this in various threads:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25583482
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25445883
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25029414
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24855732
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24721883
...it's painfully clear that this is not curious conversation but a pre-existing agenda.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
"Content warning: extremely graphic distressing images of people being shot in the head by PRC security forces"
Not sure how this could be any clearer.
Not sure how this could be any clearer.
I found this warning clear enough.
I think it's a good thing to include these images, we've become too used to content moderation that we're desensitized to a lot of the atrocities that are still happening daily around the world.
I think it's a good thing to include these images, we've become too used to content moderation that we're desensitized to a lot of the atrocities that are still happening daily around the world.
The images are worse than that. A picture taken at a distance of someone being shot in the head is easier to see or scroll by than a closeup of a head blown in half.
The photo of the woman whose head was blown in half by the rifle is many years (decades?) old. It’s profoundly disturbing, but it’s been widely available for a long time.
That doesn’t make it any less brutal or disturbing, but it serves as a reminder of how often we are willing to turn a blind eye to atrocities when it’s economically or politically expedient.
That doesn’t make it any less brutal or disturbing, but it serves as a reminder of how often we are willing to turn a blind eye to atrocities when it’s economically or politically expedient.
The phrase sometimes gets a bit overused. I wasn't fully prepared for some images either.
Distressing can be pretty subjective, and I was definitely not expecting to be THAT distressed. Figured other people might also be caught off guard.
I see where you’re coming from, but perhaps something like “close-ups of mutilated bodies after execution by large-calibre weapons to the head” would give more of an indication. I didn’t expect the gore, just a wide shot of someone with a gun to their head, a bit like the famous one of the add-hoc execution in the street in Vietnam by Eddie Adams.
The warning should be absent. This is the reality of the CCP and could be the direction that pro-censorship and pro-communist nations laud. It’s all fun and and games when popular opinion vilifies the likes
of terrorists or pedophiles but it’s a slippery slope.
Next thing you know the executions start for DMCA violations and so called hate speech that will radically change in 40y.
As george carlin famously said we are all circulating the drain.
Next thing you know the executions start for DMCA violations and so called hate speech that will radically change in 40y.
As george carlin famously said we are all circulating the drain.
Some people, and stay with me here, have different reactions to graphic violence than you. Shocker, I know.
I want the shock and negative feelings. People need to get their head out of the sand and realize the true cost of your new iPhone 12 and all the other cheap Chinese junk.
We shouldn’t be supporting China, we should bring skilled work back to the USA.
We shouldn’t be supporting China, we should bring skilled work back to the USA.
Well these people in particular need to toughen up and face reality so that they know what it means if the government executes someone, that it's not just a data point on a chart.
They need to feel it and toughen up. If we become a nation of cowards, then those in power are going to start doing this and nobody will have the courage to stand up to it.
> then those in power are going to start doing this
I don't know where you have been these last 70 years, but western powers have been "doing this" for a long, long, long time
What we really need is to listen to some Angela Davis speeches on what has been going on in the areas that The Media is too cowardly to report
I don't know where you have been these last 70 years, but western powers have been "doing this" for a long, long, long time
What we really need is to listen to some Angela Davis speeches on what has been going on in the areas that The Media is too cowardly to report
This comment is extremely disingenuous. The annual number of state sponsored executions in the United States can be counted on one hand. Most (all?) of the EU has banned the death penalty altogether.
Trauma is a real thing people experience, and having associated triggers is not particularly rare, believe it or not. I'm sorry if some particular political leaning convinced you that's only a thing on tumblr.
And I don't see how "standing up" in the US would ever do you any good, with the sheer force of militarized police and actual military. I hope this is not leading into a tired "if only Germany would've had guns" point.
And I don't see how "standing up" in the US would ever do you any good, with the sheer force of militarized police and actual military. I hope this is not leading into a tired "if only Germany would've had guns" point.
I don't understand how 'being triggered' is a bad thing...
People who 'get triggered' are too sensitive. They have to train themselves. We are on planet earth, we live then we die. This is a fact. Emotions are tools to allow us to navigate our lives as members of society. They are useful, not something we should be shielded from.
We need negative emotions just like we need hunger to know we need to eat, thirst to know we need to drink, pain to know we need to avoid physical harm, etc...
IMO, those who can't face reality shouldn't be involved in shaping it.
People who 'get triggered' are too sensitive. They have to train themselves. We are on planet earth, we live then we die. This is a fact. Emotions are tools to allow us to navigate our lives as members of society. They are useful, not something we should be shielded from.
We need negative emotions just like we need hunger to know we need to eat, thirst to know we need to drink, pain to know we need to avoid physical harm, etc...
IMO, those who can't face reality shouldn't be involved in shaping it.
Happy to see your peer-reviewed work on this. In the unlikely case you haven't actually done any research, I'll go back to believing the scientific consensus of "retraumatizing does not work beyond phobias".
>IMO, those who can't face reality shouldn't be involved in shaping it.
What is this even advocacy for? Voting rights only after you sit through a slideshow of graphic violence?
>IMO, those who can't face reality shouldn't be involved in shaping it.
What is this even advocacy for? Voting rights only after you sit through a slideshow of graphic violence?
The purpose of these images is not to help individuals to avoid emotional discomfort, it is merely to teach individuals what a term means. In this case, terms like 'state killing' and 'execution' are supposed to create emotional discomfort when read.
The association with the horrible imagery needs to be created or else people will not understand what they're reading with the appropriate degree of emphasis when the term comes up in the future. We will be a nation of apathetic, sedated cowards.
In the old days, people actually saw these horrors with their own eyes, not merely seen pictures; so they understood very well what 'war' meant. Probably why we haven't had a major war for so long.
The association with the horrible imagery needs to be created or else people will not understand what they're reading with the appropriate degree of emphasis when the term comes up in the future. We will be a nation of apathetic, sedated cowards.
In the old days, people actually saw these horrors with their own eyes, not merely seen pictures; so they understood very well what 'war' meant. Probably why we haven't had a major war for so long.
> Probably why we haven't had a major war for so long.
It is funny reading this after not even been two weeks since the last attack on the US embassy compound in Iraq after the US denied Iraqi calls to remove US troops of the country it invaded 17 years ago
It is funny reading this after not even been two weeks since the last attack on the US embassy compound in Iraq after the US denied Iraqi calls to remove US troops of the country it invaded 17 years ago
> Consider turning images off to read the content.
I'm sorry, I can try to understand the well-meant intent behind this, but what, and pretend the world is all roses and rainbows?
No. Leave the images on. You first world city folk need to SEE the horror that goes on beyond your ivory towers, some of it enabled by the very work that you do.
I'm sorry, I can try to understand the well-meant intent behind this, but what, and pretend the world is all roses and rainbows?
No. Leave the images on. You first world city folk need to SEE the horror that goes on beyond your ivory towers, some of it enabled by the very work that you do.
I wasn't always first world city folk, I've seen the horror and my family has been touched by it. I'd rather never see it again, though unfortunately news from my former home often makes it unavoidable.
If you need to see brutality to empathize with the brutalized, then go ahead and look at the gore. But I think most people are emotionally capable enough to realize that executions aren't pleasant experiences without photo evidence.
If you need to see brutality to empathize with the brutalized, then go ahead and look at the gore. But I think most people are emotionally capable enough to realize that executions aren't pleasant experiences without photo evidence.
Who are you yelling at? They're not here.
While the methods employed by the PRC are, ahem, somewhat more pragmatic than those utilised in most other countries still having the death penalty, it is mere nuance - the state murdering its own citizens is a practice which should have been long abandoned - whether the state is Iran, the US, China, Saudi Arabia or any of the handful of others still having the statute on its books.
I don't think most people who get death penalty in the West get it for being against the State or for their political opinions.
Does it matter why you get killed?
No one has the right to kill another person unless someone's life is in acute danger.
> No one has the right to kill another person unless someone's life is in acute danger.
That's a completely arbitrary right. Depending on wherever you are from it's not some kind of shared obviousness at all. Some countries actually execute people for possessing hard drugs (which I don't agree with, but that's the reality: don't assume 'rights' are universal). Most of these countries are in South East Asia and have suffered in the opium days so there's a history behind that decision too.
That's a completely arbitrary right. Depending on wherever you are from it's not some kind of shared obviousness at all. Some countries actually execute people for possessing hard drugs (which I don't agree with, but that's the reality: don't assume 'rights' are universal). Most of these countries are in South East Asia and have suffered in the opium days so there's a history behind that decision too.
I think the key is whether one accepts that there is no free will.
If you did, then executing someone solely for whatever they did makes no sense, because:
1. If you were in their place, you would've done the same thing (no free will).
2. You can imagine what you'd feel if in their place you'd hear the sentence, (then empathy would kick in).
3. “No man is completely useless; he can always serve as a bad example.”
Then in an ideal world, we would have the knowledge, and resources to figure out what went wrong, and "fix" the abusive behaviour in the subject, making them a happy and productive member of society again.
Of course we are living in an imperfect world, so this is not yet a viable solution..
If you did, then executing someone solely for whatever they did makes no sense, because:
1. If you were in their place, you would've done the same thing (no free will).
2. You can imagine what you'd feel if in their place you'd hear the sentence, (then empathy would kick in).
3. “No man is completely useless; he can always serve as a bad example.”
Then in an ideal world, we would have the knowledge, and resources to figure out what went wrong, and "fix" the abusive behaviour in the subject, making them a happy and productive member of society again.
Of course we are living in an imperfect world, so this is not yet a viable solution..
While I don‘t share this train of thought, it‘s certainly easier to argue from several philosophical and religious backgrounds for a death sentence for a murderer than for a protester.
Not unless you are Bin Laden or Saddam. In that case we fudge the rules a little and celebrate the executions.
Arbitrarily assassinating dissidents and politically inconvenient targets goes way beyond a mere issue of capital punishment.
Capital punishment is one thing, blowing people’s brains out for dissenting is another.
That's assuming you have a functioning judiciary system.
At 99.9% they do become the same.
At 99.9% they do become the same.
While Japan's legal system is certainly deserving of criticism, who's isn't?, this stat is thrown around without any understanding of what it really means.
What is the conviction rate in your country of residence?
What does conviction rate actually mean in the context of the legal process in your country and Japan?
If you don't know the detailed answers to those questions I suggest not making such grand claims about equivalence.
Here is a short radio episode explaining this topic.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csz3s5
Edit for clarity:
The parent has for some reason edited their comment and now it looks like I was defending China's rate in my reply. They originally made an equivalence claim between Japan and China and I wanted to add information explaining that this stat doesn't necessarily mean what it's often at first glance interpreted to mean. The parent then replied to my comment with a reply that suggests their edit was in fact malicious. But I can't be sure of that.
What is the conviction rate in your country of residence?
What does conviction rate actually mean in the context of the legal process in your country and Japan?
If you don't know the detailed answers to those questions I suggest not making such grand claims about equivalence.
Here is a short radio episode explaining this topic.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csz3s5
Edit for clarity:
The parent has for some reason edited their comment and now it looks like I was defending China's rate in my reply. They originally made an equivalence claim between Japan and China and I wanted to add information explaining that this stat doesn't necessarily mean what it's often at first glance interpreted to mean. The parent then replied to my comment with a reply that suggests their edit was in fact malicious. But I can't be sure of that.
Or you could read the source within the article, as mentioned.
https://qz.com/246696/chinas-criminal-conviction-rate-is-99-...
https://qz.com/246696/chinas-criminal-conviction-rate-is-99-...
You edited your post to remove the Japan comparison.
Why would you do that?
Why would you do that?
Japan has quite a weird judicial system. I think from a western, common law eye, it probably seems worse. In the west a prosecutor will usually bring a case if they think there is a reasonable chance of getting a conviction whereas in Japan, a prosecutor will only bring a case if they are very convinced that there will be a conviction. I think there is also some societal pressure on judges to not find people innocent, which seems pretty bad to me. Also the police basically want to extract signed confessions out of people and may often keep suspects in custody for long periods of time (without access to a lawyer or anyone else) to extract confessions.
Obviously this sounds bad so in the interest of balance, let me point out that there are many problems with the US system but they are out of this comment.
Obviously this sounds bad so in the interest of balance, let me point out that there are many problems with the US system but they are out of this comment.
I personally prefer the bullet to chemical death sentence, at least I am not coerced to pay for the bullet
The sword as they use in Saudi Arabia also seems rather brutish but certainly less painful
The sword as they use in Saudi Arabia also seems rather brutish but certainly less painful
The images used appears to be from a public execution in 1995, rural China, for a triple murder.
Can you explain why you say that? What's the source?
The text could use some references.
> There will be recriminations and retributive violence. It’s likely that some officers who participated in the decades of state sanction slaughter will face the same grisly, unceremonious end that they inflicted on others.
I'm not sure about this one, but maybe someone more knowledgeable can chime in.
I would have thought the same thing, but my wife is from Slovakia and I was surprised to learn that no such thing happened. It seems that everyone was involved in government somehow, and everybody was just doing their thing to live a decent life.
The real violence came from grabbing the new opened up market, and so trying to grab as much of the newly opened market and money as possible. Not so much revenge of what happened because of the government.
I definitely want to know if this was the case in other countries too.
I'm not sure about this one, but maybe someone more knowledgeable can chime in.
I would have thought the same thing, but my wife is from Slovakia and I was surprised to learn that no such thing happened. It seems that everyone was involved in government somehow, and everybody was just doing their thing to live a decent life.
The real violence came from grabbing the new opened up market, and so trying to grab as much of the newly opened market and money as possible. Not so much revenge of what happened because of the government.
I definitely want to know if this was the case in other countries too.
I am glad to see SubStack allowing this type of content to be published on their platform.
I am still cautious because they are a centralized platform. But glad to see they allow this type of stuff.
I am still cautious because they are a centralized platform. But glad to see they allow this type of stuff.
"and probably many more" is an understatement. There is mass organ harvesting from Falun Gong followers [0] and God knows how many die in the Uighur concentration camps [1].
There is a 99.9% conviction rate in crimes in China [2] (which is the same as basically having no rule of law) and political prisoners seemingly 'disappear' all the time.
China are known for lying consistently about almost everything and keep a tight lid (as much as they can) on anything that would cause them to 'lose face' both within and without the country so any estimates are likely significantly low.
[0]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go... [1]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps [2]:https://qz.com/246696/chinas-criminal-conviction-rate-is-99-...
There is a 99.9% conviction rate in crimes in China [2] (which is the same as basically having no rule of law) and political prisoners seemingly 'disappear' all the time.
China are known for lying consistently about almost everything and keep a tight lid (as much as they can) on anything that would cause them to 'lose face' both within and without the country so any estimates are likely significantly low.
[0]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go... [1]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps [2]:https://qz.com/246696/chinas-criminal-conviction-rate-is-99-...
The fact this fully-referenced post got insta-downvoted to -1 says it all about HN.
I strongly suspect it would be beneficial to require a downvote to be accompanied by a comment.
Even if it is an optional thread property depending on the nature of the link posted, and is at moderator’s discretion.
Even if it is an optional thread property depending on the nature of the link posted, and is at moderator’s discretion.
> It says all about HN.
You mean well educated?
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"; Wikipedia and lots of writeups tracing back to the singular source of Adrian Zenz are not it sadly
You mean well educated?
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"; Wikipedia and lots of writeups tracing back to the singular source of Adrian Zenz are not it sadly
Most of the claims have nothing to do with Adrian Zenz, and I’d love to know what you have against him since his reporting seem to be factually accurate.
This person is making the extraordinary claim that all the provided evidence is bullshit, but ironically delivers no substantial evidence themselves, besides asserting "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".
This is what cognitive dissonance looks like.
This is what cognitive dissonance looks like.
> This is what cognitive dissonance looks like
Incorrect, that's what someone on mobile in public transport looks like, but thank you for the benefit of the doubt (?)
I would be still interested in non-Zanz related sourcing to the original comments if you have any
Incorrect, that's what someone on mobile in public transport looks like, but thank you for the benefit of the doubt (?)
I would be still interested in non-Zanz related sourcing to the original comments if you have any
In this context you cannot find any sources that cannot be construed as shady in some way since none of them are official. You of course know this, and you will just question any source thrown at you, as you did previously. So why are you even asking? What's your point? That we don't know for sure whether the CCP is bad? Constant lies and not letting people leave the country aside, how many more screaming indicators of abuse do you need?
[deleted]
For reference, the US DOJ has a 93% conviction rate. Japan has a 99.3% conviction rate. However, apparently in Japan prosecutors drop about half the cases they are given before sentencing, so the real rate would be about 50%. Do we have a similar stat for China?
tl,dr: CCP involves as many ordinary people as it can into the judicial and extra-judicial killing process in what could be "life insurance" for the regime: too many have blood on their hands to ever face accountability.
Personally, the dissonance around China has come to an extreme. Is most reporting incorrect, or has CCP become the most efficient and durable totalitarian regime in history? Or is it a form of social engineering that has actual mainstream support in China? Or is it a doomed experiment, just like all other previous authoritarian regimes in history?
There is something quietly unsustainable building up.
Personally, the dissonance around China has come to an extreme. Is most reporting incorrect, or has CCP become the most efficient and durable totalitarian regime in history? Or is it a form of social engineering that has actual mainstream support in China? Or is it a doomed experiment, just like all other previous authoritarian regimes in history?
There is something quietly unsustainable building up.
Your post seems to me that you intensely believe the creed that western-style “liberal democracy” is the most stable political regime. It is true it is very stable though you should try to separate the reality with the propaganda set up by those states, especially the US one. For example:
> Or is it a doomed experiment, just like all other previous authoritarian regimes in history?
The Pharaonic system which was may be the most despotic ever created lasted for nearly three millenia. The current age of all “democracies” (~ representatively guided states with some kinds of power separations) pales in comparison. And regarding the robustness of those regimes the only continental country to not crumble when confronted to the shock of the blitzkrieg was the USSR (operation barbarossa lead to the death of 5 millions people in 200 days to give an idea).
I am not trying to defend authoritarian regimes but the questions of which political system is the fairest, which one is the most legitimate, which one is the most stable and which one is the most robust are not the same and should not be conflated
> Or is it a doomed experiment, just like all other previous authoritarian regimes in history?
The Pharaonic system which was may be the most despotic ever created lasted for nearly three millenia. The current age of all “democracies” (~ representatively guided states with some kinds of power separations) pales in comparison. And regarding the robustness of those regimes the only continental country to not crumble when confronted to the shock of the blitzkrieg was the USSR (operation barbarossa lead to the death of 5 millions people in 200 days to give an idea).
I am not trying to defend authoritarian regimes but the questions of which political system is the fairest, which one is the most legitimate, which one is the most stable and which one is the most robust are not the same and should not be conflated
There's an unsustainable component to every empire, in that the premise is always growth-centric and stratified; empires do not "prosper together". Growth turns to killing when the psyche of the nation needs a boost, cleaving a harder line into the social constructs of stratification by informing everyone of who is clean and goodly, and who is guilty by default and deserves their punishments. It reallocates praise and blame such that the established in-groups get the most credit by their own reckoning. On this I see Heather Marsh's views as some of the most clear-eyed.
The thing about authoritarian impulses throughout history is that they flare up and, for time, keep a country firmly gripped. Then they relax, and are somewhat forgotten about, even reconciled, until something comes along to trigger it again, in a replica of the abuse cycle. And China is not going to be different in this respect - moments where things get more oppressed for a time, and then moments of relief. The Xi regime has been relatively more oppressive in most recountings by Western sources. This is believable yet also not meaningful, since clearly the apparatus was there before.
IMHO, just because China has gotten this far with its current model says little about tomorrow. There is propaganda coming from all directions these days, so I'm always a little hesitant about "real truth" coming from random sources, but simultaneously suspicious of the official ones too. It's that climate, in itself, that damages the credibility of all regimes; it leaves truth and credit up for grabs to those who can forge a new path that makes the world cohere better. It's hard to defeat the real truth in the long run.
The thing about authoritarian impulses throughout history is that they flare up and, for time, keep a country firmly gripped. Then they relax, and are somewhat forgotten about, even reconciled, until something comes along to trigger it again, in a replica of the abuse cycle. And China is not going to be different in this respect - moments where things get more oppressed for a time, and then moments of relief. The Xi regime has been relatively more oppressive in most recountings by Western sources. This is believable yet also not meaningful, since clearly the apparatus was there before.
IMHO, just because China has gotten this far with its current model says little about tomorrow. There is propaganda coming from all directions these days, so I'm always a little hesitant about "real truth" coming from random sources, but simultaneously suspicious of the official ones too. It's that climate, in itself, that damages the credibility of all regimes; it leaves truth and credit up for grabs to those who can forge a new path that makes the world cohere better. It's hard to defeat the real truth in the long run.
> Is most reporting incorrect, or has CCP become the most efficient and durable totalitarian regime in history?
Neither. Most Americans and Europeans have zero idea what life is like in China. The media doesn't help. Anyone who knows something about the country has noticed the rising level of hysteria and propaganda about China since Trump was elected.
Neither. Most Americans and Europeans have zero idea what life is like in China. The media doesn't help. Anyone who knows something about the country has noticed the rising level of hysteria and propaganda about China since Trump was elected.
[deleted]
> has CCP become the most efficient and durable totalitarian regime in history?
Not really, here are just forces at play which would benefit if you thought so
We are in due time for the US and Western public to have a new evil boogyman presented to them. People are getting too unruly these days, so this will help keep them in line
Not really, here are just forces at play which would benefit if you thought so
We are in due time for the US and Western public to have a new evil boogyman presented to them. People are getting too unruly these days, so this will help keep them in line
We as western countries should do a lot more to show these things happening in China to our citizens. We should stop giving our money to china businesses and make business decisions not only based on price...
[deleted]
How do I (as a westerner) realistically affect change?
China's been persecuting Mongolian, Moslem, Christian, Buddisht minorities for a while and I recently read about concentration camps for Uighurs minorities on the BBC.
I want change, will my purchase decisions have any affect and are boycotts even effective?
China's been persecuting Mongolian, Moslem, Christian, Buddisht minorities for a while and I recently read about concentration camps for Uighurs minorities on the BBC.
I want change, will my purchase decisions have any affect and are boycotts even effective?
We need to prop up India as much as possible ASAP. Once China has a credible competitor in the manufacturing space, peaceful influence can be applied through economic means.
I have begun supporting Korean and Japanese products where I can.
Also I have a pretty big influence on procurement where ever I contract. I could bring to discussion the UK gov advisories on using Chinese network and IT equipment.
I just don't know if this is enough or I can do more?
Also I have a pretty big influence on procurement where ever I contract. I could bring to discussion the UK gov advisories on using Chinese network and IT equipment.
I just don't know if this is enough or I can do more?
People mist know this. Please share.
China is like a facelifted third reich turned inwards.
China is like a facelifted third reich turned inwards.
Please don't post nationalistic flamebait to HN. We're trying for something else in this community, and it's getting harder.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Sorry, my bad.
This essay is bs, and deceptive bs. But it's in plenty of company, and likely serves the market hungry for "China bad" tales.
Trigger warning: facts ahead. The lead image is a woman executed for "intentional homicide" (that's what the sign says, "intentional homicide - her name")
The article makes a handful of irresponsible accusations. It claims China is executing "probably many more via militarized kangaroo courts," insinuates China is doing "“social cleansing” of undesireables like petty drug abusers, liquidation of badly-behaved members of minority groups, or outright political murders of people within the CCP hierarchy", and mislabels China's legal system as "state terror", getting almost poetic with its description of how it imagines this operates: "Effective systems of state terror rely on a dance between the known and the unknown in the mind of the public," which seems like the opposite of the very obvious "known" of a public execution where the criminal carries sign expressing their bona fides, and flies in the face of the author's own description of "Regular judicial personnel handle identity confirmation and terminal legal dispositions".
So where could this invention of "state terror" and all these imagined tentacular bogeymen of "state terror" come from? Perhaps from the excesses of the Cultural Revolution, which the author neglects to mention. Or perhaps from the period of Japanese occupation and the mass killings and disappearances of ordinary folk that the author again neglects to mention. Where does the author get his (or her, it's hard to tell if it's a pseudonym or not) picture of China? One possibility is biased Western media which for the last few years has worked its readership into a frothy fervor of China hatred, mostly based on such misrepresentations and lazy accusations. Which if the author has his (or her) biased view of China from the media he consumes, presents a further interesting possibility.
It seems that a "dance between the known and the unknown in the mind of the public" would pretty well describe the constant state of confusion and conflict instigated and inflamed by the media apparatus of certain unnamed "free" countries. Perhaps the author is projecting his experience of such "state terror" onto a place he doesn't know about (but feels justified to misrepresent and smear), in some sort of "fantasy idyll dystopia" that lets him feel he has it lucky to be where he is?
The essay also expends a paragraph on Nazis and Soviets, and spends quite a bit of time imagining the dastardly inner workings of the state he fabricates, and how the dogma of spreading responsibility for illegitimate killings onto as many people as possible ensures their coercibility. Hmm, sounds like the typical blackmail-type coercion engaged in by state security and intelligence organizations, and their proxy sex crime rings, in many unnamed "free" countries. Again, possibly the author is projecting his own experience of this kind of "coercive covert control".
Especially likely given the vast majority of Chinese see their state's legitimacy as totally solid and, if anything, complain of the forgivingness of their punitive systems, rather than their harshness. To the reader unacquainted with Chinese history beyond the ancient anodyne depictions of flowery courts, silk-clad concubines, and scurrying sneaky eunuchs....this bloodlust (or "Justice boner"?) might seem unaccountable and odd. But a closer look at Chinese history (even 20C Chinese history) will quickly correct such ahistorical readers of their delusions. They gave the world the 20C's bloodiest revolution. And it was a popular revolution, not a "illegitimate tyrannical crackdown", so the people are pretty accustomed to using blood and death to reshape things how they want.
I know it's a compelling and soothing fantasy to try to, in one's mind, delegitimize the Chinese state, and pretend a "kinship" with all the "oppressed Chinese masses", and feel like your own country is so much better, but honestly, you'd all be better off fixing the problems in your own countries, and looking to China as a source of strength, inspiration and partnership, rather than persisting in these "feel-good" fantasies (which frankly reek of being demented and intoxicating swansongs to a dying "Era of Western dominance"). Even if your goal is to complete with and beat China, you'd be better served by being able to see it clearly, which these feelgood Western fantasies of "China bad", only cloud. Honestly if you want to make yourself as "the enemy of the Chinese state" you'd be far better served by seeing it clearly first, as these sort of self-deluding fantasies (which are, incidentally, embarrassingly racist and blind to such in their snooty fake-righteous didactic criticism), only play into the hands of those you want to define as your enemies.
The uncomfortable truth that the country that is soon to be seen as (or in fact already) the largest economy, with all its foreignness to Western minds, to have that suddenly thrust upon the world stage in first place, is understandable very hard for many people in other countries to accept. It's hard, and not helped that your native medias have gone into a "2 minutes China hate" overdrive. That they resort to these sort of made-up but soothing fantasies is understandable, as it both plays into the hands of your domestic politics always hungry for the next weapon of mass distraction, and somebody to blame. But you shouldn't show "contempt before investigation" you should keep your mind open, and be vigilant against such implanted fears and fabrications, lest you become instruments of the will of power brokers the intentions of which you do not understand. You have much to learn from, and much the benefit from China, if you'll only keep an open mind, instead of engaging in, quite frankly, this tired mental masturbation that is all these sort of lazy accusatory fake narratives amount to.
Not that there's anything wrong with that...but it's not going to help you and it's not going to make it easier to deal with the facts. And it really doesn't have to be that hard. Just keep an open mind, start with a neutral (not "we are better" or "we are worse" mindset) and think for yourselves. You can't travel right now, so at least, travel in your mind, and adopt the same open-minded curiosity you employ when traveling physically. Look for the good, and be on the look out for dangers, but don't go hiding in a cave of your own fear and invention because somebody pointed to a geopolitical map and told you, "there be dragons."
Trigger warning: facts ahead. The lead image is a woman executed for "intentional homicide" (that's what the sign says, "intentional homicide - her name")
The article makes a handful of irresponsible accusations. It claims China is executing "probably many more via militarized kangaroo courts," insinuates China is doing "“social cleansing” of undesireables like petty drug abusers, liquidation of badly-behaved members of minority groups, or outright political murders of people within the CCP hierarchy", and mislabels China's legal system as "state terror", getting almost poetic with its description of how it imagines this operates: "Effective systems of state terror rely on a dance between the known and the unknown in the mind of the public," which seems like the opposite of the very obvious "known" of a public execution where the criminal carries sign expressing their bona fides, and flies in the face of the author's own description of "Regular judicial personnel handle identity confirmation and terminal legal dispositions".
So where could this invention of "state terror" and all these imagined tentacular bogeymen of "state terror" come from? Perhaps from the excesses of the Cultural Revolution, which the author neglects to mention. Or perhaps from the period of Japanese occupation and the mass killings and disappearances of ordinary folk that the author again neglects to mention. Where does the author get his (or her, it's hard to tell if it's a pseudonym or not) picture of China? One possibility is biased Western media which for the last few years has worked its readership into a frothy fervor of China hatred, mostly based on such misrepresentations and lazy accusations. Which if the author has his (or her) biased view of China from the media he consumes, presents a further interesting possibility.
It seems that a "dance between the known and the unknown in the mind of the public" would pretty well describe the constant state of confusion and conflict instigated and inflamed by the media apparatus of certain unnamed "free" countries. Perhaps the author is projecting his experience of such "state terror" onto a place he doesn't know about (but feels justified to misrepresent and smear), in some sort of "fantasy idyll dystopia" that lets him feel he has it lucky to be where he is?
The essay also expends a paragraph on Nazis and Soviets, and spends quite a bit of time imagining the dastardly inner workings of the state he fabricates, and how the dogma of spreading responsibility for illegitimate killings onto as many people as possible ensures their coercibility. Hmm, sounds like the typical blackmail-type coercion engaged in by state security and intelligence organizations, and their proxy sex crime rings, in many unnamed "free" countries. Again, possibly the author is projecting his own experience of this kind of "coercive covert control".
Especially likely given the vast majority of Chinese see their state's legitimacy as totally solid and, if anything, complain of the forgivingness of their punitive systems, rather than their harshness. To the reader unacquainted with Chinese history beyond the ancient anodyne depictions of flowery courts, silk-clad concubines, and scurrying sneaky eunuchs....this bloodlust (or "Justice boner"?) might seem unaccountable and odd. But a closer look at Chinese history (even 20C Chinese history) will quickly correct such ahistorical readers of their delusions. They gave the world the 20C's bloodiest revolution. And it was a popular revolution, not a "illegitimate tyrannical crackdown", so the people are pretty accustomed to using blood and death to reshape things how they want.
I know it's a compelling and soothing fantasy to try to, in one's mind, delegitimize the Chinese state, and pretend a "kinship" with all the "oppressed Chinese masses", and feel like your own country is so much better, but honestly, you'd all be better off fixing the problems in your own countries, and looking to China as a source of strength, inspiration and partnership, rather than persisting in these "feel-good" fantasies (which frankly reek of being demented and intoxicating swansongs to a dying "Era of Western dominance"). Even if your goal is to complete with and beat China, you'd be better served by being able to see it clearly, which these feelgood Western fantasies of "China bad", only cloud. Honestly if you want to make yourself as "the enemy of the Chinese state" you'd be far better served by seeing it clearly first, as these sort of self-deluding fantasies (which are, incidentally, embarrassingly racist and blind to such in their snooty fake-righteous didactic criticism), only play into the hands of those you want to define as your enemies.
The uncomfortable truth that the country that is soon to be seen as (or in fact already) the largest economy, with all its foreignness to Western minds, to have that suddenly thrust upon the world stage in first place, is understandable very hard for many people in other countries to accept. It's hard, and not helped that your native medias have gone into a "2 minutes China hate" overdrive. That they resort to these sort of made-up but soothing fantasies is understandable, as it both plays into the hands of your domestic politics always hungry for the next weapon of mass distraction, and somebody to blame. But you shouldn't show "contempt before investigation" you should keep your mind open, and be vigilant against such implanted fears and fabrications, lest you become instruments of the will of power brokers the intentions of which you do not understand. You have much to learn from, and much the benefit from China, if you'll only keep an open mind, instead of engaging in, quite frankly, this tired mental masturbation that is all these sort of lazy accusatory fake narratives amount to.
Not that there's anything wrong with that...but it's not going to help you and it's not going to make it easier to deal with the facts. And it really doesn't have to be that hard. Just keep an open mind, start with a neutral (not "we are better" or "we are worse" mindset) and think for yourselves. You can't travel right now, so at least, travel in your mind, and adopt the same open-minded curiosity you employ when traveling physically. Look for the good, and be on the look out for dangers, but don't go hiding in a cave of your own fear and invention because somebody pointed to a geopolitical map and told you, "there be dragons."
yters(2)
This whole article reeks of Western propaganda against China. China is being turned into the new al-Qaeda to justify yet another Western military adventurism.
What's interesting is that, at least in the case of the Iraq War, there was no ought right public Iraqi diaspora calling for the downing of the Saddam regime, but in the case of China and Iran, it is very interesting to me how far right Monarchist groups such as the Iranian Tondar group which even did terror attacks on the nation call for quite literally an invasion of the country and setting up a literal Monarchy on it as opposed to the current Theocratic Republic
It is just so interesting this year seeing the Trump administration ratchet up the rhetoric pressure on the Chinese government and make strong use of Falon Gong, which are just renowned to be.... Unreliable in their narratives to say the least, as a spearhead and baseline to build a PR campaign against the country
But yeah, lacking a horse on the race, in my case, it is just interesting seeing how the knots of war are slowly tied
It is just so interesting this year seeing the Trump administration ratchet up the rhetoric pressure on the Chinese government and make strong use of Falon Gong, which are just renowned to be.... Unreliable in their narratives to say the least, as a spearhead and baseline to build a PR campaign against the country
But yeah, lacking a horse on the race, in my case, it is just interesting seeing how the knots of war are slowly tied
Please review the site guidelines and use HN in the intended spirit: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
Nationalistic flamewar is not ok here. Slurring groups or individuals who disagree with you is not ok here. Cartoonish accusations about communist agents and spies secretly manipulating the thread is explicitly against the site guidelines. It is also, frankly, foolish and a little embarrassing—anyone reading this thread or any other, whose emotions aren't pre-inflamed on the topic, can easily see what's going on: people with different backgrounds and therefore different views disagree with each other and feel strongly. I've studied this problem in depth for years; I've pored over voting data, flagging data, and lots of other data, and I can tell you that the evidence not only confirms that, it's probably the most solid evidence of any kind I've ever examined [1].
The value of this site is curiosity [2]. The goal is curious conversation. When the needle goes this badly into the red, curious conversation is impossible. Worse, we get the internet thread equivalent of a world war. That's a grandiose analogy because internet forums are so trivial—but the emotional dynamics are not trivial. The anger and accusation here are the forces which, in the extreme, make people to try to destroy each other.
One can derive a significant conclusion: if HN is to have a chance at achieving its mandate—which is in all our interests, because it's only that which makes the place interesting—then we all need to work on these dynamics in ourselves.
Here's one way to do that: don't see the other person as an enemy, a demon [3], a communist, or a brainwashed Westerner. See them as someone who doesn't have the same information you have. Share information with the intention to communicate, not defeat the other. Don't expect to persuade them—deep things like this can only shift slowly. When someone responds with information that you feel is false or, worse, might have some truth to it, tolerate the painful flare-up that will inevitably surge in your system. Wait for it to subside—don't let it power your response. Remember that you're talking not only to one person who perhaps strongly disagrees with you—you are broadcasting to an entire community of readers. Practicing these skills is the only way to make your case to the community that can actually do any good, so even if there are brainwashed Westerners or sinister manipulators or communist spies, it's what we need to be doing anyway [4].
[1] As I've said elsewhere, the odds that someone who was posting about Julia in 2015 is a communist agent who was planted to manipulate HN round to zero. That, in the median case, is who you're talking to here.
There are years' worth of explanations about this problem at https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme..., for anyone who wants more.
[2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
[3] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...
[4] This is the "sufficiently smart manipulator" (SSM) argument: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...