Ask HN: Should you be loyal to a company/job?
In my experience the answer is a resounding no, but curious to know if anyone sees it differently.
8 comments
Loyalty can only work when it's a reciprocal relationship. You can't have "one way" loyalty; that's devotion, or allegiance, or even servitude. That means for a person to be loyal to a business the business would also need to be loyal in return. Unfortunately that never stands the test of time; as soon as anything bad happens where the owners have to choose between the employee and something bad (making a loss, going bankrupt, favoring some other employee) the business owners will inevitably pick what's best for the business.
So no, employees shouldn't be loyal, because the reciprocity of a loyal relation is rarely there. That doesn't mean the employees should be &$%£s though.
So no, employees shouldn't be loyal, because the reciprocity of a loyal relation is rarely there. That doesn't mean the employees should be &$%£s though.
No because it's not a friendship between two people; it's a working relationship between two entities.
Be thankful you reached an agreement to get paid for work from the company that provides you a living; however, there is no loyalty beyond the work that you promised to do once the contract is signed.
At the end of the day, you are two entities mutually benefiting from a working relationship. Beyond the work, there is no loyalty nor should there be any expectation of one from either side.
The company's purpose is to make money for its stakeholders. If you are a hinderance to that purpose, then you'll be cut. The company won't proactively look for another position for you no matter how many years of experience you have with them or how you stuck up for them to disgruntled workers. They don't hear or care about that. If you can't bring them profit, then you are gone.
Of course, there will be individuals who stick up for you or find a position for you at the company, but that is a human being and not an abstract entity (aka the company).
Be thankful you reached an agreement to get paid for work from the company that provides you a living; however, there is no loyalty beyond the work that you promised to do once the contract is signed.
At the end of the day, you are two entities mutually benefiting from a working relationship. Beyond the work, there is no loyalty nor should there be any expectation of one from either side.
The company's purpose is to make money for its stakeholders. If you are a hinderance to that purpose, then you'll be cut. The company won't proactively look for another position for you no matter how many years of experience you have with them or how you stuck up for them to disgruntled workers. They don't hear or care about that. If you can't bring them profit, then you are gone.
Of course, there will be individuals who stick up for you or find a position for you at the company, but that is a human being and not an abstract entity (aka the company).
Northern European male:
Maybe, sort of depends on what kind of contract you have.
If you get equity or have social plan / profit sharing good and fair healthcare and other secondary benefits like education and leave and there is the ability to carve a career path and the other side is supportive i would be more receptive to not bail for greener pastures at the first downturn or setback. Its reasonably hard to fire people here tough.
Bailing on any of the above and not holding their end i have moved to another job before.
Without any security like you would have in at will states in usa i would not be loyal at all, if they can fire you they can stuff it too when i dont think its going at its best.
Bailing on any of the above and not holding their end i have moved to another job before.
Without any security like you would have in at will states in usa i would not be loyal at all, if they can fire you they can stuff it too when i dont think its going at its best.
Absolutely not. After 30 years in business I have seen too many execs walk away with huge (>50+ million dollar pay packages, upwards of 250 million due to pre-arranged exit deals) even after failing greatly and seriously harming franchises if not permanently destroying them. And when times get tough, the C-suite uses their management consultants as cover to whack a ton of ordinary folks because "you know, overlaps". Think like a mercenary at all times. They do. Don't get me started on gentleman agreements about bonuses to be paid after 12 months "if" I came onboard.
By definition you are employed because the entity that employs you can extract a value from your work that is superior to that of your salary. Therefore the relationship can only be one of loyalty if there is some societal impulse behind it, such as the post-war Japanese system. Even then, I'd still argue that it is largely illusory.
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Sorry if you've had some hard experiences in this area. I find it a bit difficult to give a hard yes/no, with the exception of the more polarized scenarios. For example, objectively-accounted (shared experience) abuse of employees is a big obvious one.
The concept of loyalty has a lot of understated depth to it. I think this is why you find people still working at companies that are even objectively awful. IMO consideration of one's practice of loyalty is best as an ongoing process or even a conversation. And it's really about relationships.
People who are gifted at thinking about relationships, thinking deeply, and taking their time to do so, can do pretty well at such companies in many cases. For example, while someone who expects to work for a fair company and has reasonably high ideals may get completely blown away by an awful work environment, the employees at the same org who are more nuanced in this kind of situation are thinking about the exact details of the give and take. They are mapping out the boundaries, quadrant by quadrant. They may even find their workplace a fascinating study in power dynamics. It's stimulating for them, in a very intriguing way.
I observed this myself while preparing to leave a job. Long ago I worked for a company that had a lot of problems. As one example, they had monitored employee phone calls, listened in on a call wherein an employee shared with a friend that she was pregnant, and then terminated her employment. (She took them to court and won) I found this out about a month into my employment there. Then I found out a bunch of other nasty stuff about the company. The main IT guy started a private chat with me and dropped a ton of insider facts, after he found out I was leaving.
Personally, I had to leave. My health was more important to me than the weighing and considering factors. But I noticed that the people who stayed there had really figured out the web of intricate power factors. They knew where there were hard lines and where there was blur. They understood how to work with management so that they got what they wanted, sometimes, or usually. This relationship-puzzling factor is very much an understated stimulant for people who can do it. They feel like they are Neo in _The Matrix_. Inside their head it's a powerful game.
On the outside, people like this look "loyal" to a lot of us who take more of a breezy, get-things-done approach to our work. We who may want to work for quality people who meet high standards, and return the same. But IMO on the inside these Matrix types are really counting on this loyal appearance as the solid foundation for their epic inner journey, in which all avenues are open. Power games, passive-aggressive behavior, I've even seen hacking of all varieties used in these cases. And they know the deal--I'm loyal on the outside, the company likes that. On the inside, on the deep inside, the company likes to turn a blind eye.
And most days are just fine, even if the company has a bad name and a bad reputation.
This is just one way in which loyalty gets really deep.
The concept of loyalty has a lot of understated depth to it. I think this is why you find people still working at companies that are even objectively awful. IMO consideration of one's practice of loyalty is best as an ongoing process or even a conversation. And it's really about relationships.
People who are gifted at thinking about relationships, thinking deeply, and taking their time to do so, can do pretty well at such companies in many cases. For example, while someone who expects to work for a fair company and has reasonably high ideals may get completely blown away by an awful work environment, the employees at the same org who are more nuanced in this kind of situation are thinking about the exact details of the give and take. They are mapping out the boundaries, quadrant by quadrant. They may even find their workplace a fascinating study in power dynamics. It's stimulating for them, in a very intriguing way.
I observed this myself while preparing to leave a job. Long ago I worked for a company that had a lot of problems. As one example, they had monitored employee phone calls, listened in on a call wherein an employee shared with a friend that she was pregnant, and then terminated her employment. (She took them to court and won) I found this out about a month into my employment there. Then I found out a bunch of other nasty stuff about the company. The main IT guy started a private chat with me and dropped a ton of insider facts, after he found out I was leaving.
Personally, I had to leave. My health was more important to me than the weighing and considering factors. But I noticed that the people who stayed there had really figured out the web of intricate power factors. They knew where there were hard lines and where there was blur. They understood how to work with management so that they got what they wanted, sometimes, or usually. This relationship-puzzling factor is very much an understated stimulant for people who can do it. They feel like they are Neo in _The Matrix_. Inside their head it's a powerful game.
On the outside, people like this look "loyal" to a lot of us who take more of a breezy, get-things-done approach to our work. We who may want to work for quality people who meet high standards, and return the same. But IMO on the inside these Matrix types are really counting on this loyal appearance as the solid foundation for their epic inner journey, in which all avenues are open. Power games, passive-aggressive behavior, I've even seen hacking of all varieties used in these cases. And they know the deal--I'm loyal on the outside, the company likes that. On the inside, on the deep inside, the company likes to turn a blind eye.
And most days are just fine, even if the company has a bad name and a bad reputation.
This is just one way in which loyalty gets really deep.
I would say you should be loyal to people but not companies.