Food Grammar: Unspoken rules of cuisine(atlasobscura.com)
atlasobscura.com
Food Grammar: Unspoken rules of cuisine
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/do-italians-eat-spaghetti-and-meatballs
117 comments
You can see this in stuff like Chinese-American restaurants, or British-Indian food, but a lot of great food comes from what cooks have to do when using their original recipes/cooking styles in a region with distinct ingredients. I end up accumulating a lot of ingredients that are traditional from international groceries and stuff, but a lot of interesting and tasty dishes come from what you can substitute regarding local produce and ingredients.
It really is wonderful to see how food is adapted between regions and cultures.
It drives me crazy when I see people concerned about "appropriation" when one culture adopts the cuisine of another (appropriation exists, but the usages I've seen apply it far too broadly). People want others to enjoy what they enjoy. It's great to share recipes! I know that ordering American food in another country will not get me what I expect... and that's totally fine. The adaptation might not appeal to my tastes, but that doesn't make it bad. It doesn't mean they're not allowed to call it American food.
It drives me crazy when I see people concerned about "appropriation" when one culture adopts the cuisine of another (appropriation exists, but the usages I've seen apply it far too broadly). People want others to enjoy what they enjoy. It's great to share recipes! I know that ordering American food in another country will not get me what I expect... and that's totally fine. The adaptation might not appeal to my tastes, but that doesn't make it bad. It doesn't mean they're not allowed to call it American food.
In my life, I've made a commitment to combining foods that break the grammars that I've been exposed to. Much of the time, I've enjoyed (pear compote on steak!) or at least tolerated (hot dog, peanut butter and banana? Only whilst camping) the results. However: never mix strawberries and shrimp. It wasn't my idea, but I did execute on the suggestion.
Maybe HN could apply itself to finding solutions to George Hart's Incompatible Food Triad. (George is father to maths/art youtube superstar Vi Hart and himself an amazing maths/artist.)
After twenty-five years of thinking about this problem I decided to write a web page about it. Here is the problem:
Can you find three foods such that all three do not go together (by any reasonable definition of foods "going together") but every pair of them does go together?
The page is extremely funny, but also serious - my favourite combination.
http://www.georgehart.com/triad.html
After twenty-five years of thinking about this problem I decided to write a web page about it. Here is the problem:
Can you find three foods such that all three do not go together (by any reasonable definition of foods "going together") but every pair of them does go together?
The page is extremely funny, but also serious - my favourite combination.
http://www.georgehart.com/triad.html
> That this thought experiment merits a web page is really quite astounding. That I decided to write you an e-mail telling you that is even more astounding. And that I don't drink myself stupid following this exchange will be the most astounding non-event in the history of mankind. I am baffled, shattered, and destroyed by the mind-numbing pointlessness of The Incompatible Food Triad experiment. It makes me ill. I promise you, sir, I will never again be the same after witnessing the sheer mind-blowing uselessness of that puzzle. My life as I know it, is over. I once was lost, but then I was found, and then I found your website linked to Wikipedia and now I am lost again, irretrievably lost in a dark maze, a pitch dark maze with the Minotaur of Bafflement hunting me down. I shall not escape him, I shall not escape my doom. No, good sir, instead I fall - far and away, even from myself I fall until I slam forcefully into the cold steel floor of my own mind, crippled and alone, dead to all sensation. I am gone, sir, and I shall never return.
Loved the page, myself.
Loved the page, myself.
Indeed, the pb/hotdog/banana experiment was performed with this problem in mind. Though, nobody thinks that banana and hotdog is worth considering... until you roast the banana... (and, yeah, still questionable)
Wow I was with you until strawberry and shrimp.
Korean marinades use pears for kalbi iirc.
PB on a hot dog isn't crazy tho the addition of banana is slightly more odd.
But my god. Strawberry and shrimp. Especially that very rich full bodied shrimp would be awful with strawberry! Gross!
And yet the brain is ticking, if you chose sweeter prawns that were very fresh and steamed them, I could see them going with milder raw strawberries. At least not contradicting them. Maybe some balsamic can bridge the two.
Korean marinades use pears for kalbi iirc.
PB on a hot dog isn't crazy tho the addition of banana is slightly more odd.
But my god. Strawberry and shrimp. Especially that very rich full bodied shrimp would be awful with strawberry! Gross!
And yet the brain is ticking, if you chose sweeter prawns that were very fresh and steamed them, I could see them going with milder raw strawberries. At least not contradicting them. Maybe some balsamic can bridge the two.
Here's a langoustine and summer berries dish I had back when restaurants were open. https://www.instagram.com/p/CCVEto6FUMn/
you're on the right track, using a sweeter shrimp, in this case a langoustine, small red shrimps would work too. lightly cooked or seared. salt, fat and depth comes from the pork belly to provide a base layer. and instead of balsamic as an acid to bind, they used a lemon beurre blanc with lemon thyme oil to add even more zing.
balsamic glaze should work too, strawberry and balsamic vinegar is amazing combination.
you're on the right track, using a sweeter shrimp, in this case a langoustine, small red shrimps would work too. lightly cooked or seared. salt, fat and depth comes from the pork belly to provide a base layer. and instead of balsamic as an acid to bind, they used a lemon beurre blanc with lemon thyme oil to add even more zing.
balsamic glaze should work too, strawberry and balsamic vinegar is amazing combination.
> And yet the brain is ticking...
Well met, friend! After writing that, I started reconsidering how it could be done. I arrived at a sibling comment's observation, that ceviche could be a better approach. Not so far from the balsamic! Onion in the ceviche may help (on second thought, it might be another strike against the strawberries). But no, the original incident was a grilled skewer -- yikes.
One flavor that I've found to be a a very flexible "strange bridge" is mustard. But... ye gods... that'd only turn the retch up to 11.
Well met, friend! After writing that, I started reconsidering how it could be done. I arrived at a sibling comment's observation, that ceviche could be a better approach. Not so far from the balsamic! Onion in the ceviche may help (on second thought, it might be another strike against the strawberries). But no, the original incident was a grilled skewer -- yikes.
One flavor that I've found to be a a very flexible "strange bridge" is mustard. But... ye gods... that'd only turn the retch up to 11.
Oh yes - ceviche is a fantastic shout. If you want onions, maybe red onions will pair better with the strawberry?
I do enjoy this side of cooking, it's basically a form of problem solving where the pay off is delicious food!
Happy I'm not the only one out there that enjoys pushing the limits. Although I am also at other times the staunchest of traditionalists...
I do enjoy this side of cooking, it's basically a form of problem solving where the pay off is delicious food!
Happy I'm not the only one out there that enjoys pushing the limits. Although I am also at other times the staunchest of traditionalists...
shrimp is usually combined with lemon, or that radish stuff right?
yeah I'd definitely try balsamic, or maybe sour apples, or orange marmalade? Shrimp, mayo, apple is definitely a thing right? Is the cream part required? What about a citrusy balsamic shrimp banana crepe, with a light sugar dusting? ok weird but I'd love to try it
yeah I'd definitely try balsamic, or maybe sour apples, or orange marmalade? Shrimp, mayo, apple is definitely a thing right? Is the cream part required? What about a citrusy balsamic shrimp banana crepe, with a light sugar dusting? ok weird but I'd love to try it
Yeah, don't do orange juice on cereal, either.
The one thing I know to avoid combining with orange juice is strongly smoked salt fish. It changes the taste of orange juice to bitter.
Rooibos tea works on some cereals. You can think of that as a sort of North American hipster version of chazuke.
Of course cookies can be dunked in milk. Once on a plane, sometime around her first birthday IIRC, my daughter tried dunking Biscoff in Diet Coke. I was so proud of her because clearly she was a culinary genius! Until I tried it.
I LOVE orange juice on Wheat Chex. So, I don't think this warning applies to me.
I once browned some ground beef and cookie dough together and thoroughly enjoyed it.
I'm with this on flavor, I'd add cardamom or some other umbellifer... what was the meat/cookie interface like?
It came together as a unified blob.
> never mix strawberries and shrimp
fried prawns in mango puree and sweet mayo is a fairly popular dish in parts of china. prawns in honey wasabi is another sweet variant.
fried prawns in mango puree and sweet mayo is a fairly popular dish in parts of china. prawns in honey wasabi is another sweet variant.
The issue with strawberries, I think, is the tart+fish (or in the case of that one misguided experiment, grilling the mess may have been the ultimate culprite). I would be all over prawns in honey wasabi.
try peanut butter, banana, sriracha over greek yogurt with granola... sounds weird, but I eat it for breakfast all the time
One day I decided to make a cobbler with thanksgiving leftovers... turning it into a "shepherds pie" thing but as a turkey cobbler.. that thing was delicious.
I love taking and combining familiar concepts in unfamiliar ways... it's at least one way to pass time during the pandemic...
One day I decided to make a cobbler with thanksgiving leftovers... turning it into a "shepherds pie" thing but as a turkey cobbler.. that thing was delicious.
I love taking and combining familiar concepts in unfamiliar ways... it's at least one way to pass time during the pandemic...
> One day I decided to make a cobbler with thanksgiving leftovers...
Marvelous. I did an "all-in-one" dish for a winter potluck one year. Ham, cranberries, and (a few) brussels sprouts, in a base of potatos au gratin. It got a few weird looks, but there were no leftovers.
Marvelous. I did an "all-in-one" dish for a winter potluck one year. Ham, cranberries, and (a few) brussels sprouts, in a base of potatos au gratin. It got a few weird looks, but there were no leftovers.
I call this "the holy spirit of snacking", and I trace it back at least to my grandfather who always liked a good lox-and-cream-cheese-on-chocolate-donut sandwich.
I also got the peanut-butter-and-mozzarella-on-english-muffin sandwich from him, which I legitimately enjoy.
I also got the peanut-butter-and-mozzarella-on-english-muffin sandwich from him, which I legitimately enjoy.
French fries with vanilla ice cream is somewhat popular in Germany.
Nobody ever accepted me putting chocolate chips in my tuna subs.
One of the worst things ever featured on the UK version of Kitchen Nightmares was someone who was serving up chocolate and prawn smoothies in sunny spain...
Just watched that and was about to comment the same. I wish there was some kind of quantification to this stuff, or at least a subjective graph demonstrating the different aspects of foods and which ones are complementary: flavor, texture, color, smell, etc. if we had this kind of quantified space to explore, i think we could programmatically find some bizarre combinations that taste amazing
Flavour thesaurus is very good, if quite small relative to what I think you want (or I might be projecting -- it's what I want). Would be a good start for seeding the graph anyway, it's a great book.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flavour_Thesaurus?wprov=sf...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flavour_Thesaurus?wprov=sf...
I don't think there's as much science to it as he implies but this is how heston blumenthal cooks.
I genuinely can't find the book (it's not modernist cuisine) but he recommended a book which is sort of part chemistry textbook part cookbook.
I genuinely can't find the book (it's not modernist cuisine) but he recommended a book which is sort of part chemistry textbook part cookbook.
A high-school friend once made a chicken milkshake.
Pot may have been involved.
Pot may have been involved.
It was just a dish of prawns served with chocolate sauce. Ramsay made the smoothie and fed it to the blindfolded chef to demonstrate the combination doesn't work.
I've watched that show way too much...
I've watched that show way too much...
> I've watched that show way too much...
The cultural differences between the UK and US versions are really something
The cultural differences between the UK and US versions are really something
I'm sure reality TV hosted by Gordon Ramsay and whoever's his American counterpart isn't a great example of either's culture, nevermind basis on which to compare them.
Though I haven't seen either. I have seen both original UK & US The Office, which after the first few episodes of the latter (which just uncomfortably rip off the former, making the same jokes but poorly IMO) are each good in their own right, and definitely highlight differences between the respective television cultures, even if not actual society too.
Though I haven't seen either. I have seen both original UK & US The Office, which after the first few episodes of the latter (which just uncomfortably rip off the former, making the same jokes but poorly IMO) are each good in their own right, and definitely highlight differences between the respective television cultures, even if not actual society too.
Gordon Ramsay is the host of both that's why it's a good point of comparison - American TV is violent and usually emasculation-porn, the UK version of the show is often very gentle and doesn't feature extremely loud musical cues to tell the audience when to gasp and when to salivate. The media set and follow trends.
Just to pick up the point about the office - the office US is really good, but the office is UK is an order of magnitude deeper. The US version hits it's stride long after they ran out of UK-material.
They do serve as analogues of the countries they're set in, but ultimately the office UK is much more of character study of Brent and is generally really uniquely shot and directed. Michael Scott is funny, Brent is truly tragic.
Also one thing that really annoys me about US television, is that they clearly assume their audience is too stupid to get many gags, i.e. the office UK is full of clever little gags that don't really make you laugh but really sell the format and location of the show, even if you don't notice them.
To prove "British" can be shit too -> Afterlife is rubbish.
Just to pick up the point about the office - the office US is really good, but the office is UK is an order of magnitude deeper. The US version hits it's stride long after they ran out of UK-material.
They do serve as analogues of the countries they're set in, but ultimately the office UK is much more of character study of Brent and is generally really uniquely shot and directed. Michael Scott is funny, Brent is truly tragic.
Also one thing that really annoys me about US television, is that they clearly assume their audience is too stupid to get many gags, i.e. the office UK is full of clever little gags that don't really make you laugh but really sell the format and location of the show, even if you don't notice them.
To prove "British" can be shit too -> Afterlife is rubbish.
Just thinking about it makes me want to floss my teeth!
You should see what Sweden has done to pizza.
I love this idea and want to expand on it. I personally think of all cuisines in the worlds as points within a large embedding- "recipe space". Every recipe is a graph of nodes representing items, and edges representing actions ("take sugar and flour and mix in a bowl"). Out of this whole space, different cultures have explored various areas but we've ended up with a number of very similar approaches, such as:
flatbreads. a wide range of cultures/cuisines use a flatbread as a starch structural vehicle (tortilla, dumpling wrappers) combined with a protein/fat interior (cheese, dumplings, whatever). This pattern shows up over and over and suggests a wide range of new fusion approaches ("world wrapps" is an example of prior art).
Once you've cooked across enough cuisines you'll see people have rediscovered a number of techniques (quick fermentation, drying, evaporating) to get rich flavors quickly.
There's a side comment in one my cookbooks (Sauces) which dives into salsa- which means "sauce" but most people think of it as a condiment. It points out that if you think of salsa as fresh sauces it opens up a whole new world of saucing opportunities.
Building the latent space for recipes would mean taking every recipe in the world, encoding it, and generating an embedding; with the result, you could easily create fusion food by casting vectors between two cuisines and sampling points between them.
flatbreads. a wide range of cultures/cuisines use a flatbread as a starch structural vehicle (tortilla, dumpling wrappers) combined with a protein/fat interior (cheese, dumplings, whatever). This pattern shows up over and over and suggests a wide range of new fusion approaches ("world wrapps" is an example of prior art).
Once you've cooked across enough cuisines you'll see people have rediscovered a number of techniques (quick fermentation, drying, evaporating) to get rich flavors quickly.
There's a side comment in one my cookbooks (Sauces) which dives into salsa- which means "sauce" but most people think of it as a condiment. It points out that if you think of salsa as fresh sauces it opens up a whole new world of saucing opportunities.
Building the latent space for recipes would mean taking every recipe in the world, encoding it, and generating an embedding; with the result, you could easily create fusion food by casting vectors between two cuisines and sampling points between them.
Do it!
This is why I don't like "fusion" dishes.
When I'm exploring new cuisines, I want to learn the grammar of that culture and how they put food together. I find those traditional dishes that have evolved over a long period of time to have flavors that complement each other very well. And also like imagining the experience of people from that culture.
And I know others enjoy something new and innovative that hasn't been done before, and that's OK, too.
When I'm exploring new cuisines, I want to learn the grammar of that culture and how they put food together. I find those traditional dishes that have evolved over a long period of time to have flavors that complement each other very well. And also like imagining the experience of people from that culture.
And I know others enjoy something new and innovative that hasn't been done before, and that's OK, too.
A lot of "traditional" dishes are not that old.
Japanese Ramen is my favorite example. Inspired by Chinese noodles, it is only about a century old, and it really took off during WW2. A sign of it not being of Japanese tradition is the fact it is most often written in katakana (ラーメン).
The fact it is not traditional is actually a strength. While more traditional Japanese food like sushi or tempura is highly codified, Ramen shops are free to do as they please, which result in a great deal of variety. There is no "one true Ramen".
Japanese Ramen is my favorite example. Inspired by Chinese noodles, it is only about a century old, and it really took off during WW2. A sign of it not being of Japanese tradition is the fact it is most often written in katakana (ラーメン).
The fact it is not traditional is actually a strength. While more traditional Japanese food like sushi or tempura is highly codified, Ramen shops are free to do as they please, which result in a great deal of variety. There is no "one true Ramen".
Fun fact: tempura are actually of portuguese origin. And california rolls are, as the name suggest, from California. Another japanese staple that has a weird history is curry: it mimics the _british_ curry, rather than the indian/thai varieties.
California rolls are not a thing in Japan where as Ramen and Curry are. They do have various rolled sushi styles but "California roll" in particular and all the various common rolls found in the west (tempura roll, caterpillar roll, rainbow roll, etc...) are practically non-existent here. You can find 2-3 restaurants in all of Tokyo that serve them. I knew 3 at one point, 2 went out of business.
> California rolls are not a thing in Japan
Yes, my understanding is that the california rolls were an adaptation based on the fact that that americans at the time were not used to the idea of eating raw fish, and that avocados are much more readily available in the US.
I hear that the original style of sushi from Japan also carries with it a culture of training strictness/technique/meticulousness similar to french classical training culture, whereas the north american fusion sushi style puts a lot more emphasis on creativity.
Yes, my understanding is that the california rolls were an adaptation based on the fact that that americans at the time were not used to the idea of eating raw fish, and that avocados are much more readily available in the US.
I hear that the original style of sushi from Japan also carries with it a culture of training strictness/technique/meticulousness similar to french classical training culture, whereas the north american fusion sushi style puts a lot more emphasis on creativity.
But British curry is imitating Indian curry (if wikipedia can be believed), so Japanese curry is mimicking Indian curry (albeit indirectly).
Yes, but if you were trying to recreate something accurately of course you'd never do that.
Depending on your perspective, all food is "fusion". If you take any dish, it's always going to be a fusion of different cultural, and trade, and climate, and agricultural... influences. Today's perspective on "traditional" could be yesterdays tradition-defying modern innovation. You find (with very few exceptions) that it's vary hard to define what a dish actually is. There's no such thing as a "correct" Laksa recipe for instance, so if you want to understand what it is, you have to investigate how different people make it differently, and how that's changed over time. Where you draw the line of "traditional" is mostly rather arbitrary.
I like fusion cuisine: it tends to be endemic of places with lots of immigration and it's part of the character of these cities.
What I think you're referring to is the idea of authenticity, which I think is illustrated well by looking at how different cultures barbecue. The "classic" american barbecue features harburgers and hotdog sausages in bread, brazilian barbecue offers a large variety of cuts of meats along with an extensive salad buffet, and chinese barbecue might get you duck to go with rice.
What I think you're referring to is the idea of authenticity, which I think is illustrated well by looking at how different cultures barbecue. The "classic" american barbecue features harburgers and hotdog sausages in bread, brazilian barbecue offers a large variety of cuts of meats along with an extensive salad buffet, and chinese barbecue might get you duck to go with rice.
> The "classic" american barbecue features harburgers and hotdog sausages in bread
This is definitely not classic American barbecue. This is associated with going to “a barbeque”, which is slang for a summer picnic type gathering with food (sometimes pot luck style), hot dogs and hamburgers being cheap and easy food fair. American barbecue, the food, is defined by regions, with different parts of the country being known for the animal used (beef, pork, chicken), the preparation and cooking method (dry or wet rubbed, smoked with various wood types, grilled), and serving (sans sauce or with mustard, vinegar, mayonnaise, or tomato based bbq sauce). I personally am partial to Texas beef brisket and Memphis dry rub ribs.
If someone was taking me to a backyard neighborhood barbeque, I would expect hamburgers, hot dogs, potato salad, and some weird jello based side dish someone’s aunt made. If someone was taking me to an “authentic barbeque joint”, I would be insulted if they were primarily serving hamburgers and hotdogs.
This is definitely not classic American barbecue. This is associated with going to “a barbeque”, which is slang for a summer picnic type gathering with food (sometimes pot luck style), hot dogs and hamburgers being cheap and easy food fair. American barbecue, the food, is defined by regions, with different parts of the country being known for the animal used (beef, pork, chicken), the preparation and cooking method (dry or wet rubbed, smoked with various wood types, grilled), and serving (sans sauce or with mustard, vinegar, mayonnaise, or tomato based bbq sauce). I personally am partial to Texas beef brisket and Memphis dry rub ribs.
If someone was taking me to a backyard neighborhood barbeque, I would expect hamburgers, hot dogs, potato salad, and some weird jello based side dish someone’s aunt made. If someone was taking me to an “authentic barbeque joint”, I would be insulted if they were primarily serving hamburgers and hotdogs.
Is there an actual distinction between "barbecue" and "barbeque"? I know there's definitely a scale of quality/practicality, ranging from stuff like burgers to beer chicken to boned cuts (t-bones, ribs) to brisket/pulled pork/friends, but I thought it was all part of the same umbrella.
As a comparison, in Brazil, the homely variety of barbecue will usually not feature things like cupim (beef hump), which it's a staple of barbecue restaurants. They're all considered barbecue regardless, though.
To go back to the idea of authenticity and grammar, I don't believe chicken hearts are part of american barbecue fare anywhere in the US, picnic-style or not, whereas in Brazil they are (though typically only in restaurants). Similarly, you'd pretty much never see hotdogs being associated w/ barbecue in Brazil, and they'd have vinaigrette and potato chip strips in them.
As a comparison, in Brazil, the homely variety of barbecue will usually not feature things like cupim (beef hump), which it's a staple of barbecue restaurants. They're all considered barbecue regardless, though.
To go back to the idea of authenticity and grammar, I don't believe chicken hearts are part of american barbecue fare anywhere in the US, picnic-style or not, whereas in Brazil they are (though typically only in restaurants). Similarly, you'd pretty much never see hotdogs being associated w/ barbecue in Brazil, and they'd have vinaigrette and potato chip strips in them.
> Is there an actual distinction between "barbecue" and "barbeque"?
No. that was just me accidentally using them both as I typed.
> I thought it was all part of the same umbrella
I think the issue comes from the food barbecue became associated with the popular family and friends get together to eat that barbecue, and once it did, was and is used for gatherings that do not contain any “barbecued” food at all. Depending on where you are in the states, “a barbecue” could be used interchangeably with picnic or pot luck.
Now, it absolutely can be argued that hot dogs and burgers are barbecue, since they are meat that is cooked by grilling. But much like the Spanish barbacoa, from which the name derives, American barbecue is usually slow cooked (typically by smoking) meat. I guess that would be the core of what barbecue is. But then you have grilled meats like burgers, sides like baked beans and potato salad that would be eaten alongside barbecue, at a barbecue. So, I guess it depends on the umbrella. If Brazilian barbecue is “a large variety of cuts of meats” I would say American barbecue is “various smoked meats, usually cooked or served with barbecue sauce” but when I think of Brazilian barbecue, I think of “chunks of meat skewered and roasted”.
No. that was just me accidentally using them both as I typed.
> I thought it was all part of the same umbrella
I think the issue comes from the food barbecue became associated with the popular family and friends get together to eat that barbecue, and once it did, was and is used for gatherings that do not contain any “barbecued” food at all. Depending on where you are in the states, “a barbecue” could be used interchangeably with picnic or pot luck.
Now, it absolutely can be argued that hot dogs and burgers are barbecue, since they are meat that is cooked by grilling. But much like the Spanish barbacoa, from which the name derives, American barbecue is usually slow cooked (typically by smoking) meat. I guess that would be the core of what barbecue is. But then you have grilled meats like burgers, sides like baked beans and potato salad that would be eaten alongside barbecue, at a barbecue. So, I guess it depends on the umbrella. If Brazilian barbecue is “a large variety of cuts of meats” I would say American barbecue is “various smoked meats, usually cooked or served with barbecue sauce” but when I think of Brazilian barbecue, I think of “chunks of meat skewered and roasted”.
Probably half the things you like today were "fusion" dishes when they were introduced 100, 200, 500 years ago.
Where's the cutoff point where before date X it's not fusion and after date X it is? There's a long list of foods that are common now but didn't exist until some culture started using ingredients and techniques they learned from another and fusing it with their own recipes.
Where's the cutoff point where before date X it's not fusion and after date X it is? There's a long list of foods that are common now but didn't exist until some culture started using ingredients and techniques they learned from another and fusing it with their own recipes.
Where do you draw the line? At the Columbian Exchange?
A valid question. When my mother was growing up, pizza was considered a somewhat exotic Italian-American import.
I haven't followed, but have been kinda interested in when the various ingredients actually entered various food cultures. Maybe same could be applied to techniques...
In Nordics, what would be truly traditional here? Hunter gatherer food, wild-meat, fish and berries, maybe turnips? Should anything non-archaeophyte be considered non-traditional?
In Nordics, what would be truly traditional here? Hunter gatherer food, wild-meat, fish and berries, maybe turnips? Should anything non-archaeophyte be considered non-traditional?
I found the line, "And much like linguistic false friends...such as... jungli, which means wild in Gujarati, not jungle" amusing because it's right for the wrong reason.
"Jungli" means "person from the jungle" in many Indian languages, but the word "jungle," which in English connotes a dense forest, comes from a Sanskrit root that actually refers to an arid, undeveloped, semi-desert environment. So, the word means exactly what the author thinks -- a wild person from the jungle -- but because it was borrowed incorrectly, it's a completely different "jungle". So it remains a "linguistic false friend"!
"Jungli" means "person from the jungle" in many Indian languages, but the word "jungle," which in English connotes a dense forest, comes from a Sanskrit root that actually refers to an arid, undeveloped, semi-desert environment. So, the word means exactly what the author thinks -- a wild person from the jungle -- but because it was borrowed incorrectly, it's a completely different "jungle". So it remains a "linguistic false friend"!
Hunched over a bitter + savory hotpot in Nanning, China was both dizzying and delicious. A tour-de-force of sinus-clearing, palate-disorienting goodness.
Boiling roiling fungus and grasses (lemon, bamboo, some things entirely new)
A wordless meal, punctuated by satisfied sighs and appreciative noises
Plates of piled high greens. Mystery broth, mystery guests.
The live entertainment: torchlit, rhythmic caterwauling over a PA
Boiling roiling fungus and grasses (lemon, bamboo, some things entirely new)
A wordless meal, punctuated by satisfied sighs and appreciative noises
Plates of piled high greens. Mystery broth, mystery guests.
The live entertainment: torchlit, rhythmic caterwauling over a PA
Ham and pineapple on Pizza is famously offensive to Italians and oddly not mentioned in the article (probably because it is such a cliche). Yet it works. And those saying fruit has no place on a pizza: tomato is a fruit. Some of this grammar is simply irrational habit.
Sometimes food rules are even encoded in religion. E.g. Halal and Kosher food rules are pretty strict about what you can and cannot eat and how things should be prepared. Or the Catholic habit of eating fish on a Friday or indeed serving wine during church.
Going against the rules can yield nice results. Fusion cooking is a thing. Also, Neil Stephenson wrote about a North American thing called recombinant cooking. I'm not sure if he invented that term but it refers to the practice of cooking food with store bought processed food (e.g. rice crispies) and recombining it with other ingredients. Basically, it's the notion that some people only know heavily processed food and use them as ingredients.
Sometimes food rules are even encoded in religion. E.g. Halal and Kosher food rules are pretty strict about what you can and cannot eat and how things should be prepared. Or the Catholic habit of eating fish on a Friday or indeed serving wine during church.
Going against the rules can yield nice results. Fusion cooking is a thing. Also, Neil Stephenson wrote about a North American thing called recombinant cooking. I'm not sure if he invented that term but it refers to the practice of cooking food with store bought processed food (e.g. rice crispies) and recombining it with other ingredients. Basically, it's the notion that some people only know heavily processed food and use them as ingredients.
Tomato is a fruit
In botany, sure. So are Peppers, Beans, Peapods, Avocado, Squash, Zucchini, Cucumbers, Olives, Corn Kernels, Pumpkins & Nuts.
In culinary terms, though, most of these are vegetables - none of them are fruit. Mostly because none of these are sweet in the same way as fruit. I think tomatoes get brought up because their sweetness ranges between "vegetables" and "fruit".
In botany, sure. So are Peppers, Beans, Peapods, Avocado, Squash, Zucchini, Cucumbers, Olives, Corn Kernels, Pumpkins & Nuts.
In culinary terms, though, most of these are vegetables - none of them are fruit. Mostly because none of these are sweet in the same way as fruit. I think tomatoes get brought up because their sweetness ranges between "vegetables" and "fruit".
Yeah, the Japanese language for classifying things as sweet, sour, salty, bitter, and umami might be more useful. But that kind of is the point here, a lot of this stuff revolves around these arbitrary classifications that we've used historically and culturally and you get interesting results when you mix that up a little.
Which is why taking sweet and salty things like pineapple and ham and putting them on a Pizza is completely normal to some and offensive to others even when using other, similarly salty and sweet ingredients is considered normal to them.
Which is why taking sweet and salty things like pineapple and ham and putting them on a Pizza is completely normal to some and offensive to others even when using other, similarly salty and sweet ingredients is considered normal to them.
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. - unknown
Haha. I was born in Hong Kong and spoke Cantonese growing up. I never really thought about what sung means until this article. To me, it was basically "everything that's not rice," which is a more casual, flippant definition in the article. But it's still an odd word and an odd concept if you think about it. What a mindfuck.
> fish is often perched on risotto
As Italian I confirm that this is The Horror, really. And yet I can have a Spanish paella with no problem.
As Italian I confirm that this is The Horror, really. And yet I can have a Spanish paella with no problem.
How about an authentic, traditional paella made with water rats and eels?
" ‘The peasants would cook the rice in a frying pan and accompany it with whatever they could find. This would normally be water rats and eels,’ explains respected Valencian chef Rafael Vidal in an interview with El País. ‘These were more like rabbits than the modern sewer rats found in cities’ "[0]
It seems these are actually water voles:
"Water vole meat was one of the main ingredients of early paellas, along with eel and butter beans. Novelist Vicente Blasco Ibáñez described the Valencia custom of eating water voles in Cañas y Barro (1902), a realistic novel about life among the fishermen and peasants near lake Albufera."[1]
[0] https://jbcrocket.medium.com/anyone-for-rat-and-eel-paella-t...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paella
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_water_vole
" ‘The peasants would cook the rice in a frying pan and accompany it with whatever they could find. This would normally be water rats and eels,’ explains respected Valencian chef Rafael Vidal in an interview with El País. ‘These were more like rabbits than the modern sewer rats found in cities’ "[0]
It seems these are actually water voles:
"Water vole meat was one of the main ingredients of early paellas, along with eel and butter beans. Novelist Vicente Blasco Ibáñez described the Valencia custom of eating water voles in Cañas y Barro (1902), a realistic novel about life among the fishermen and peasants near lake Albufera."[1]
[0] https://jbcrocket.medium.com/anyone-for-rat-and-eel-paella-t...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paella
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_water_vole
Reminds me of Brazil's feijoada. The dish is a black bean stew with pig meat served over rice. Nowadays, most restaurants will use good cuts of meat and sausages, but originally, it was made with leftover pig parts (feet, ears, tails).
Not entirely true. It's kind of traditional in some places to prepare it with lightly fried lake fish (I am from the Como area). The horror would be parmesan with fish. But it is "small" fish, not a whole bass or trout.
A lot of Italian food rules tend to be more regional than most italians think. Even the classic heretical example of spaghetti and meatballs pretty closely resembles traditional dishes from Abruzzo - https://www.lacucinaitaliana.it/ricetta/primi/spaghetti-alla...
Agreed on the regional rules and the spaghetti and meatballs might indeed be related to the dish you mention. However, while you _can_ have spaghetti and meatballs in the "Italian food grammar", people from Abruzzo might be even more horrified by the American dish: 1) their meatballs are small enough to be part of the sauce. You don't have to tear them apart 2) the pasta remains the base of the dish rather than a kind of side 3) you would never serve "plain" pasta with the sauce and meatballs on top [1], the sauce and to some extent the meatballs would be well mixed with the pasta before it reaches the table.
So it's not the concept of spaghetti and meatballs, but rather the way ingredients are balanced and presented.
[1] https://www.bettycrocker.com/recipes/spaghetti-and-meatballs...
So it's not the concept of spaghetti and meatballs, but rather the way ingredients are balanced and presented.
[1] https://www.bettycrocker.com/recipes/spaghetti-and-meatballs...
For sure, I'm definitely not claiming they're the same dish, absolutely the concept of spaghetti and meatballs has evolved from whatever it's original origins were.
I guess my overall point is that I think the author is overstating the strictness of these rules, even in famously rigid traditions like Italy. Changing food around as it is shared and moves between cultures isn't a uniquely American or even modern thing, it's been happening for ages and a whole lot of traditional foods have been heavily influenced by other cultures.
Also super nitpicky but most folks in north america would incorporate the sauce in spaghetti and meatballs before serving, the whole sauce on top thing is mostly relegated to grandparents and betty crocker recipes - I'm sure a not small part of the reason for that is people rediscovering italian techniques though.
I guess my overall point is that I think the author is overstating the strictness of these rules, even in famously rigid traditions like Italy. Changing food around as it is shared and moves between cultures isn't a uniquely American or even modern thing, it's been happening for ages and a whole lot of traditional foods have been heavily influenced by other cultures.
Also super nitpicky but most folks in north america would incorporate the sauce in spaghetti and meatballs before serving, the whole sauce on top thing is mostly relegated to grandparents and betty crocker recipes - I'm sure a not small part of the reason for that is people rediscovering italian techniques though.
Here's another example of pasta with meatballs in a tomato sauce: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVojdV6NDR4
Highly recommended Youtube channel, by the way. It's just Italian grandmas making amazing food full of love, kneading pasta by hand and generally being delightful.
Plenty of dishes combining pasta and meat, also in the cookbook that was published in 2019. So I figure the article was trying to hint that the presentation of US-style spaghetti and meatballs is what would upset Italians. The meatballs should be marble-sized.
Highly recommended Youtube channel, by the way. It's just Italian grandmas making amazing food full of love, kneading pasta by hand and generally being delightful.
Plenty of dishes combining pasta and meat, also in the cookbook that was published in 2019. So I figure the article was trying to hint that the presentation of US-style spaghetti and meatballs is what would upset Italians. The meatballs should be marble-sized.
Riso e pesce persico is a traditional dish in the lakes area up north eh
Offer an American a hamburger patty coated in thick demi-glace, and they’ll likely raise an eyebrow at this common Japanese staple dubbed hambagoo.
But I'm an American, and that immediately sounds pretty good to me. Like a little Japanese meatloaf. The only "grammar" problem I see there is that I suspect the word is hambagu.
But I'm an American, and that immediately sounds pretty good to me. Like a little Japanese meatloaf. The only "grammar" problem I see there is that I suspect the word is hambagu.
One of the mistakes that many gaijin make (myself included) is to assume that katakana words are always loan words from their home country. "Hambagoo" is the Japanese take on a Hamburg steak, not an American hamburger.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_steak
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_steak
yes. the japanese word for the hamburger is hanbaga, which is a distinct word from hanbagu. hanbaga is as different from hanbaga as macaroons are from macarons.
As the article briefly touches on, these aren't limited to cooking, but even extend to eating. One weird experience I've had recently is having to explain to friends how to eat Korean food: you pick out individual bites of side dishes from shared containers one at a time, and alternate them with bites of rice. Usually their instinct is to put a bunch of side dishes in their bowls at the beginning of the meal, which is the equivalent of putting the verb before the subject.
Hmmm, I totally agree there are local cultural food grammars. And I love trying some of the things that stick outI would not have thought of like the fruit in whipped cream sandwiches (yum) or the hamburger served as a steak (also yum).
But some of the things in the articles are like???
> TO an Italian, and they may question why pasta and meat are being served together.
Pasta and meat together are common in Italy.
https://www.google.it/search?q=ricetta+pasta+carne&source=ln...
> In China, explains Jennifer 8. Lee, author of The Fortune Cookie Chronicles, rice is served after the main and before the soup
Never heard of this. I'm Chinese. Spent lots of time in China. Never once had this experience.
> shokupan, a Japanese white bread that’s even sweeter and softer than American Wonder Bread
shokupan is not sweeter and softer than wonder bread. It is delicious though!
But some of the things in the articles are like???
> TO an Italian, and they may question why pasta and meat are being served together.
Pasta and meat together are common in Italy.
https://www.google.it/search?q=ricetta+pasta+carne&source=ln...
> In China, explains Jennifer 8. Lee, author of The Fortune Cookie Chronicles, rice is served after the main and before the soup
Never heard of this. I'm Chinese. Spent lots of time in China. Never once had this experience.
> shokupan, a Japanese white bread that’s even sweeter and softer than American Wonder Bread
shokupan is not sweeter and softer than wonder bread. It is delicious though!
> Pasta and meat together are common in Italy.
As you can see in the results of the search you linked, its all ragù or other tiny bits of sausage.
The reason why pasta and meat is considered dumb ("bad grammar") in most parts of Italy is that a big chunk of meat would off the pasta/meat ratio in a bite.
As you can see in the results of the search you linked, its all ragù or other tiny bits of sausage.
The reason why pasta and meat is considered dumb ("bad grammar") in most parts of Italy is that a big chunk of meat would off the pasta/meat ratio in a bite.
About 300 million McDonald's Fillet-O-Fish sandwiches, "topped with melty American cheese," are sold each year. I offer this as proof that cheese-on-fish does not violate the American food grammar, just the {haute cuisine,foodie} American food grammar, a very different thing. Just because they say "ain't" ain't right don't mean ain't ain't right.
I think you're thinking about rules too much like a programmer in that they are something absolute rather than the rules of thumb that they actually are. Fillet-o-fish (and fish-sticks in general) are an exceptional dish in American cuisine that is akin to an irregular verb.
It doesn't matter if the individual dish itself is popular but that the paring it rare among the different types of dishes in American cuisine. Just because an irregular verb is commonly used doesn't mean it's not still irregular.
It doesn't matter if the individual dish itself is popular but that the paring it rare among the different types of dishes in American cuisine. Just because an irregular verb is commonly used doesn't mean it's not still irregular.
> Fillet-o-fish (and fish-sticks in general) are an exceptional dish in American cuisine that is akin to an irregular verb.
Ironically, irregular verbs get regularized over time as the language evolves (hell, I saw some paper the other day that attempted to compute half-life of irregular verbs in English; can't find it now) - but in case of food, I fully expect the opposite to happen; that is, cheese-on-fish will become normalized. McDonald's is the vanguard of the universal culture - whatever stuff it sells everywhere is here to stay.
Ironically, irregular verbs get regularized over time as the language evolves (hell, I saw some paper the other day that attempted to compute half-life of irregular verbs in English; can't find it now) - but in case of food, I fully expect the opposite to happen; that is, cheese-on-fish will become normalized. McDonald's is the vanguard of the universal culture - whatever stuff it sells everywhere is here to stay.
Regular forms can also become irregularized; it's not a one-way street. Speakers of American English will be familiar with the past tense of 'dive' as 'dove' instead of 'dived'. Similarly, the plural of 'octopus' has tended towards the irregular 'octopi' instead of the regular 'octopuses' (yay hypercorrection).
Did you mean „octopodes“? Well anyhow, I really like coming up with irregular forms where there aren’t just for the comedic effect. And in the end language is a tool and as long as I can convey a message to another human being: mission accomplished.
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/octopus
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/octopus
Salmon Wellington, which includes cream cheese and parmesan:
* https://tasty.co/recipe/puff-pastry-salmon-salmon-wellington
* https://tasty.co/recipe/puff-pastry-salmon-salmon-wellington
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While I've never heard it expressed that as "food grammar", there's definitely a context that tends to get lost with cuisines from another culture. Interestingly enough, that context tends to get "filled in" with their local vernacular.
When done well, it can result in some really interesting fusion cuisine and dining experiences. That's not always the case though, and I'm reminded of an experience I had in Rome ordering a cheese burger in a quasi-Irish pub, and getting a dry puck of ground beef with a cold thick slice of fresh mozzarella on top. Not really what I was hoping for.
When done well, it can result in some really interesting fusion cuisine and dining experiences. That's not always the case though, and I'm reminded of an experience I had in Rome ordering a cheese burger in a quasi-Irish pub, and getting a dry puck of ground beef with a cold thick slice of fresh mozzarella on top. Not really what I was hoping for.
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Give this article to someone, taking out every occurence of 'food grammar'. I'll bet they'll guess the missing words are 'eating habits'.
Why invent new words for existing concepts? Most of the times, in my experience, it is done to either appear more intelligent or to stake a new ground and be the self-anointed expert.
What's wrong with eating habits?
Why invent new words for existing concepts? Most of the times, in my experience, it is done to either appear more intelligent or to stake a new ground and be the self-anointed expert.
What's wrong with eating habits?
The article (and the related book[1], written by a linguist) introduce the term to refer to cultural rules around what foods to combine, either at the same time or sequentially.
Eating habits is a very general term. The first 3 google results I got[2][3][4] aren't really related to what the article refers to as food grammar. I'd say referring to habit stresses the individual preference, while referring to a grammar stresses the cultural preference.
I'll say that if the Google results for grammar inside the book are exhaustive, the concept isn't fully developed though. I'd have expected a longer, systematic list of food-grammatical rules.
[1] https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/7BF0AwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gb...
[2] https://www.cdc.gov/healthyweight/losing_weight/eating_habit...
[3] https://www.healthlinkbc.ca/health-topics/ad1169
[4] https://www.everydayhealth.com/diet-and-nutrition-pictures/b...
Eating habits is a very general term. The first 3 google results I got[2][3][4] aren't really related to what the article refers to as food grammar. I'd say referring to habit stresses the individual preference, while referring to a grammar stresses the cultural preference.
I'll say that if the Google results for grammar inside the book are exhaustive, the concept isn't fully developed though. I'd have expected a longer, systematic list of food-grammatical rules.
[1] https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/7BF0AwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gb...
[2] https://www.cdc.gov/healthyweight/losing_weight/eating_habit...
[3] https://www.healthlinkbc.ca/health-topics/ad1169
[4] https://www.everydayhealth.com/diet-and-nutrition-pictures/b...
They're different concepts.
Eating habits are, well, just habits. They're what you usually do. But they don't embody notions of right and wrong.
Grammars embody notions of right and wrong. Americans don't avoid eating horses and dogs because it's not part of their habit, they do it because they think it's wrong.
Habits are relatively easy to change. Grammars are not. I think food grammar is a great term.
Eating habits are, well, just habits. They're what you usually do. But they don't embody notions of right and wrong.
Grammars embody notions of right and wrong. Americans don't avoid eating horses and dogs because it's not part of their habit, they do it because they think it's wrong.
Habits are relatively easy to change. Grammars are not. I think food grammar is a great term.
I think 'style' would be a much better name. Grammar describes how to put words together, style describes which combinations are a good idea and which aren't.
My wife was trying to make us pumpkin pancakes this weekend, ended up an egg short, did a Google search for "egg substitutes" and ended up trying a dollop of mayonnaise, alongside traditional pumpkin spices. Mayonnaise is, after all, just egg and oil with a touch of an acid.
They almost tasted right, until they didn't. There's something about falling into the uncanny valley with foods that makes them more unacceptable than something completely foreign. We both had a good laugh at the mayo-squash-clove patties, and how close, yet so very far away they ended up being from something acceptable for our palates.
They almost tasted right, until they didn't. There's something about falling into the uncanny valley with foods that makes them more unacceptable than something completely foreign. We both had a good laugh at the mayo-squash-clove patties, and how close, yet so very far away they ended up being from something acceptable for our palates.
There's a pretty good article from the BBC [1] on the "bad grammar" of ordering a marinara pizza with cheese in Italy. It got covered on HN back in 2015. [2] There're some pretty good anecdotes in there if you like this article. :-)
[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33542392
[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10026519
[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33542392
[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10026519
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Grammar was very much a class thing, imposed top-down.
However, one had to wonder how Icelanders came up with the rotten-shark-in-a-clay-pot, french with garlic and snails. It feels like survival tactics turned cuisine grammar.
However, one had to wonder how Icelanders came up with the rotten-shark-in-a-clay-pot, french with garlic and snails. It feels like survival tactics turned cuisine grammar.
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If someone has genuine advice on how to enjoy food more, I am always game. But arbitrary rules about when and how to eat food bring me no joy.
Eggs are breakfast food.
Eggs hold things together. Cake, enriched breads, sauces, breading on your fried foods...
eggs are a food fit for every meal... does that mean every meal is breakfast?
Yes. You break your fast everytime you eat.
As far as adapting food goes vs traditional recipes. Personally, I think there's room for both. I really enjoy getting to try food done 'traditonally' but I also enjoy fusions of food, or new rakes on old things or just finding a recipe myself somewhere and changing it up in some way.
Food's great and it's great people keep experimenting, adapting food from other cultures and combining things.