Uighur camp detainees allege systematic rape(bbc.com)
bbc.com
Uighur camp detainees allege systematic rape
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55794071
86 comments
140+ upvotes, but on the front page only for only an hour or so
must have been flagged by a few people
must have been flagged by a few people
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I don't understand how so many countries would not ban together to stand up to China. Why won't they do it? This literally seems like a modern day concentration camp without the death.
The Trans-Pacific Partnership TPP was a big attempt by the US political establishment to economically isolate China with most of Asia. Unfortunately, because it was also designed to bypass the US voter, it was not very popular.
Yeah I'm hoping the new administration will work towards rejoining, I got into lots of heated debates about it with friends when it was a part of Obama's administration.
Considering that the international community doesn't / couldn't do anything substantial about NK and the Rohingya, beyond sharp words, well, it's not surprising. Of course, note that China had an interest in the status quo on those crises.
They figured out that they can get away with genocide as long as they do it in slow motion. The end result is the same, the disappearance of the Uyghurs as a people, but it takes decades instead of years. That's why they are sterilizing so many people, while keeping many imprisoned indefinitely with no opportunity to start a family. The torture and rape is just incidental to having a million or so non-persons imprisoned.
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Business matters, you know, and CIA doing their work to get more bargaining chips.
I've posted this a lot, but I think it's important for those who claim Uyghur camps are some sort of Western propaganda. This site documents primary source evidence of victims in Xinjiang. Testimonies from families and friends, court documents, photos, etc. Information on specific camps and seeing victims by city/village is newly available. What's happening there is horrible and consists of many human rights violations.
https://shahit.biz/eng/
https://shahit.biz/eng/
Even if it is western propaganda, doesn't mean it's false. Just like any Chinese/Russian/etc propaganda might highlight the abuses of the US state. As individuals, regardless of which country we happen to live in, we shouldn't immediately dismiss any country's propaganda (including our own) just because it's propaganda. Does each side have an incentive to exaggerate or lie about the other? Of course! But if abuses are really happening the opposing side would be dumb not to propagandize it.
Even if it's 1/10th the scale people are saying it is indeed still quite horrifying.
> which China says exist for the "re-education" of the Uighurs and other minorities.
Even China does not deny the camps. The disagreement almost seems to depend on whether "re-education" is considered sinister. In the West? Obviously. In China? That is apparently a normal thing to admit to doing.
Even China does not deny the camps. The disagreement almost seems to depend on whether "re-education" is considered sinister. In the West? Obviously. In China? That is apparently a normal thing to admit to doing.
It's only normal in China because if you speak against it you and your family are disappeared. So, not really normal. The CCP can admit to a lot of bad things under these oppressive conditions.
That's a weird word game to play. So you are pointing out that the government supports there own policy? In this potentially makes it not sinister?
Yes, the obviously make an attempt to normalize their policy, just like every government does with every policy. The problem is what they are doing is wrong.
Yes, the obviously make an attempt to normalize their policy, just like every government does with every policy. The problem is what they are doing is wrong.
I am surprised that the Chinese government so openly admits to behavior much of the rest of the world finds horrifying.
I was also commenting on how people deny the camps exist even when the Chinese themselves admit they exist.
I was also commenting on how people deny the camps exist even when the Chinese themselves admit they exist.
> I am surprised that the Chinese government so openly admits to behavior much of the rest of the world finds horrifying.
They don't admit it, they whitewash atrocities by saying the camps are for "re-education".
They don't admit it, they whitewash atrocities by saying the camps are for "re-education".
Which, if you look at the history of "re-education", is still horrifying.
Anyone sold by the "re-education" line is not looking at the history.
The chinese government did deny most of the camps for a long time and only after repeatedly confronted with overwhelming evidence to the contrary changed their tune to widespread (re)education camps.
Koiwai(4)
It's interesting how common to see on somewhere like reddit "if Hitler was alive today I'd go shoot him/whatever/blah blah blah" but I think the general sentiment that people wouldn't stand for another holocaust today is pretty widely accepted.
And yet here we are with it happening in plain sight and it doesn't seem to bother too many people.
And yet here we are with it happening in plain sight and it doesn't seem to bother too many people.
> it doesn't seem to bother too many people.
Articles like this making the news says otherwise. It's hard to defend the CCP when they imprison people for no other reason than having a culture that's different from the CCP.
Articles like this making the news says otherwise. It's hard to defend the CCP when they imprison people for no other reason than having a culture that's different from the CCP.
It's good to see articles, but they don't amount to much if it doesn't actually change things. The impression I get is that China is important enough to the economic bottom-line that nobody, whether Apple or Hollywood, will go for a substantial response.
Apathy gets us nowhere. Discussion through articles amounts to awareness which can lead to change. Change is possible and may not happen overnight or from one article.
It's not quite another holocaust. The closest we've had in recent times was the 'Genocide of Yazidis by ISIL' and while the world was a bit slow to react they did eventually go kill most of ISIL which is probably the appropriate response to that.
I'm not quite sure what's appropriate for China and the Uighurs - it's not quite bad enough to bomb China but some serious trade sanctions could be in order.
I'm not quite sure what's appropriate for China and the Uighurs - it's not quite bad enough to bomb China but some serious trade sanctions could be in order.
I mean nothing will ever be exactly another holocaust. I think that's the point I'm making. There will never be another German guy with a funny mustache in a brown suit, gassing an ethnic group in showers.
But here we have
- concentration camps and large scale forced detention and labor - organized genocide (admittedly on a much smaller scale than the holocaust) - systematic rape and organ harvesting
I mean if you had to assign some negative utility score to both events I'm sure you could easily argue the Holocaust was worse, but I think that misses the point. Once you check all of those boxes, you are dealing with the same category of thing.
But here we have
- concentration camps and large scale forced detention and labor - organized genocide (admittedly on a much smaller scale than the holocaust) - systematic rape and organ harvesting
I mean if you had to assign some negative utility score to both events I'm sure you could easily argue the Holocaust was worse, but I think that misses the point. Once you check all of those boxes, you are dealing with the same category of thing.
It seems like China ought to face economic consequences for this at least, assuming it's true (which I don't have any reason to doubt).
Hopefully Biden does something substantive, and ignores any consideration of the optics of being "tough on China" when that was Trump's thing. This and how he deals with the Myanmar coup are going to be big early tests of what his foreign policy is going to be like.
Social media companies probably have some influence one way or the other over how this plays out, but I don't have much confidence in them to consistently make good decisions absent significant social pressure. The Chinese market is big, and if access to that market depends on assisting government censorship, then they may see that as the cost of doing business.
What can individual people do? The obvious answers are to lobby their elected representatives, donate to good causes, and buy products preferentially from companies that are speaking out and not from companies that are complicit. Is there any other kind of non-obvious activism that can work?
Hopefully Biden does something substantive, and ignores any consideration of the optics of being "tough on China" when that was Trump's thing. This and how he deals with the Myanmar coup are going to be big early tests of what his foreign policy is going to be like.
Social media companies probably have some influence one way or the other over how this plays out, but I don't have much confidence in them to consistently make good decisions absent significant social pressure. The Chinese market is big, and if access to that market depends on assisting government censorship, then they may see that as the cost of doing business.
What can individual people do? The obvious answers are to lobby their elected representatives, donate to good causes, and buy products preferentially from companies that are speaking out and not from companies that are complicit. Is there any other kind of non-obvious activism that can work?
One of those things that puts me closer and closer to the edge of misanthropy. I mean, Nazi Germany just happened not more than a hundred years ago. We, the different countries of the world, are supposed to already know how this kind of things unfold and that we should not just stand here watching!
In this regard, it's logical to conclude that all leaders of this world is helping China, such a strange world.
Holocaust happening in front of us but we're not doing anything. Whatever happened to "never again"?
This needs wider awareness. Communism is awful in every form. The Chinese government is not guiltless!
>Communism is awful in every form
Does not follow. If I can give you several examples of capitalist neo-liberals doing terrible things, then by this line of reasoning capitalism is bad in every form, right?
What economic aspect of China is particularly communist anyway? They wave a red flag around and call their president/prime minister/tsar/whatever a general secretary, but they clearly are or soon will have the most successful capitalist economy in human history.
Does not follow. If I can give you several examples of capitalist neo-liberals doing terrible things, then by this line of reasoning capitalism is bad in every form, right?
What economic aspect of China is particularly communist anyway? They wave a red flag around and call their president/prime minister/tsar/whatever a general secretary, but they clearly are or soon will have the most successful capitalist economy in human history.
Communism is the ideal that empowered the current government of China. Once the abusive tyrants gained power, the economic model became a secondary issue. It follows and there’s a causal relationship between communism and tyranny because they are one in the same. Socialism is merely the marketing campaign.
Wikipedia reports that Han and Uighur are mutual friends socially in their home region (around 70% and 80% reported some relationships), and also notes some historical issues, but nothing contemporary. Why does China govt hate them so much, uncut version?
There were several terrorist attacks by Uighur separatist groups. The Chinese authorities use Western War on Terror rhetoric to justify the ethnic cleansing, warrantless mass-surveillance and censorship.
It's a shame Western states institute the repressive laws that they do, as for the most part, the Western states are vastly better than the CCP on civil liberties, and the few deviations from an otherwise strong commitment to liberal democratic principles prevents the West from having the kind of moral high ground it would otherwise have.
It's a shame Western states institute the repressive laws that they do, as for the most part, the Western states are vastly better than the CCP on civil liberties, and the few deviations from an otherwise strong commitment to liberal democratic principles prevents the West from having the kind of moral high ground it would otherwise have.
It doesn’t seem enough to blame the entire group. Terrorist attacks are often nation- or religion-related, but no one in the world takes course to destroy all the population, as the article states.
It would also be nice if other people who are annoyed by my genuine question answered it or explained what’s wrong with it.
It would also be nice if other people who are annoyed by my genuine question answered it or explained what’s wrong with it.
> It doesn’t seem enough to blame the entire group.
It actually does the opposite, and takes care to not blame the entire group. Right after 9/11, I remember two main domestic messages:
1. A LOT of flag waving. Like, flags on everything.
2. Islam is a religion of peace/Al-Qaeda corrupted Islam/not all Muslims are terrorists/condemnation of racist attacks against Muslims, etc.
It actually does the opposite, and takes care to not blame the entire group. Right after 9/11, I remember two main domestic messages:
1. A LOT of flag waving. Like, flags on everything.
2. Islam is a religion of peace/Al-Qaeda corrupted Islam/not all Muslims are terrorists/condemnation of racist attacks against Muslims, etc.
> Why does China govt hate them so much, uncut version?
They do not. Many of the men raping Uighur women are socially friends with Uighurs. Many of them are Uighurs themselves. Some of them are probably socially friends with the women they're raping.
They're not raping women because that's somehow part of the Chinese government's plan to assimilate Uighurs, rather, they're doing it because they want sex, they're in a position to get it, they're not going to take no for an answer, and they think they can get away with it.
They do not. Many of the men raping Uighur women are socially friends with Uighurs. Many of them are Uighurs themselves. Some of them are probably socially friends with the women they're raping.
They're not raping women because that's somehow part of the Chinese government's plan to assimilate Uighurs, rather, they're doing it because they want sex, they're in a position to get it, they're not going to take no for an answer, and they think they can get away with it.
That is well-known (gulag, etc). You give the green light to all sorts of scums and they do it without explicit directives. But it doesn’t explain why. CCP embraces very high risks with this route, while more ‘liberal’ routes exist. Even from a cynical point of view, today it feels more like an irrational hate rather than ideological issues.
> CCP embraces very high risks with this route, while more ‘liberal’ routes exist.
Which more liberal routes are you thinking of, and how would the government actually implement them with the resources at their disposal?
Which more liberal routes are you thinking of, and how would the government actually implement them with the resources at their disposal?
Upvote this one people, the world deserves to know and the traffic HN brings is meaningful.
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Koiwai(1)
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hard to believe the police released them AND handed back their passports after all these horrible things
Do you mean it's hard to believe as in you don't think it's true or hard to belive as in jeez, the police really have some balls on them for doing that.
I like your way of thinking.
New atrocity propaganda by Tursunay Ziyawudun
2019 “I was taken to a hospital to undergo a [sterilization] operation, but because I have always suffered from a gynaecological condition the doctor said I could suffer complications that include death, so they spared me,” she said.
2020 she was injected until she stopped having her period, and kicked repeatedly in the lower stomach during interrogations. She now can’t have children and often doubles over in pain, bleeding from her womb, she said.
2021 Mass rape somehow she left out previous 2 years.
2022 Guards eat babies.
Camps are as real, so are propaganda about them by the usual suspects.
2019 “I was taken to a hospital to undergo a [sterilization] operation, but because I have always suffered from a gynaecological condition the doctor said I could suffer complications that include death, so they spared me,” she said.
2020 she was injected until she stopped having her period, and kicked repeatedly in the lower stomach during interrogations. She now can’t have children and often doubles over in pain, bleeding from her womb, she said.
2021 Mass rape somehow she left out previous 2 years.
2022 Guards eat babies.
Camps are as real, so are propaganda about them by the usual suspects.
I never realized those stories were told by the same person.
Donation link for the Uigher Human Rights Project (mentioned in the article):
https://uhrp.org/support