Show HN: A network of weather stations to help prevent pesticide spray drift(cotl.com.au)
cotl.com.au
Show HN: A network of weather stations to help prevent pesticide spray drift
https://cotl.com.au/launch.html
28 comments
Thank you so much for doing this. It is a really helpful thing you're doing for the world.
What crops would you say are most used in conjunction with the bad types of pesticides in South Australia?
What crops would you say are most used in conjunction with the bad types of pesticides in South Australia?
Hi Forgotmypw
The crops in the regions covered by the mesonet include broadacre agricultural crops (typically wheat and other cereals, and canola, and pulses such as chick peas), vineyards, fruiting trees in the Riverland (i.e. almonds, oranges, stone fruits etc) and potatoes. Particularly the mix of crop types within a region can result in problematic spray drift. For example, summer spraying in broadacre farms to kill summer weeds can drift many kilometres into vineyards and greatly affect the broad-leafed grapevines just as they are starting to fruit.
The typical herbicides used are glyphosate and 2,4-D. I don’t think these are ‘bad’ per se as they are a necessary part of modern agriculture. I think the ‘bad’ part is more to do with improper usage. This is everything from droplet size, volatisation, nozzle size, boom height as well as multiple weather factors. There have been numerous education and awareness campaigns about these things which have led to improved management. The missing piece of the puzzle was that although everyone knew inversions were bad for spraying (a big culprit for long-distance spray drift), no one knew when an inversion was happening. Our mesonet and website have now addressed this
The crops in the regions covered by the mesonet include broadacre agricultural crops (typically wheat and other cereals, and canola, and pulses such as chick peas), vineyards, fruiting trees in the Riverland (i.e. almonds, oranges, stone fruits etc) and potatoes. Particularly the mix of crop types within a region can result in problematic spray drift. For example, summer spraying in broadacre farms to kill summer weeds can drift many kilometres into vineyards and greatly affect the broad-leafed grapevines just as they are starting to fruit.
The typical herbicides used are glyphosate and 2,4-D. I don’t think these are ‘bad’ per se as they are a necessary part of modern agriculture. I think the ‘bad’ part is more to do with improper usage. This is everything from droplet size, volatisation, nozzle size, boom height as well as multiple weather factors. There have been numerous education and awareness campaigns about these things which have led to improved management. The missing piece of the puzzle was that although everyone knew inversions were bad for spraying (a big culprit for long-distance spray drift), no one knew when an inversion was happening. Our mesonet and website have now addressed this
Thank you for such a detailed response!
I see the pilot was deemed to be successful, though it might be too early to tell, so I assume you've put significant work it what I think is the biggest problem to solve in this space: The human problem.
How do you manage to onboard many farmers, many of whom in Australia tend to be... Resistant... to new technology, into making use of your network to prevent damage to their neighbours downwind from them?
How do you manage to onboard many farmers, many of whom in Australia tend to be... Resistant... to new technology, into making use of your network to prevent damage to their neighbours downwind from them?
Hi Shakna
Both the pilot mesonet in the Mid North and the subsequent network in the Riverland Mallee were actually strongly supported by local growers. Many farmers are embracing the latest AgTech to farm more efficiently.
A majority of pesticide sprays such as 2,4-D and glyphosate have label requirements that state they cannot be sprayed during an inversion. It is illegal to spray during an inversion and farmers must keep records of their spray times. Without the mesonet, spray applicators had no easy way to know if an inversion was present or not. Given inversions typically happen at night time, many growers adopted a method of not spraying from dusk until dawn. Now, with the mesonet data, they find that their ‘spray window’ is possibly different and may even open up more time for them to spray. Most farmers want to do the right thing, and now they have the real-time data to make informed decisions.
Also, the public nature of the data display means that anyone spraying during an inversion will be noticed by their neighbours. This will hopefully lead to cultural change and practice change as the public data will make it highly awkward for ’cowboy’ growers in the community to flout the rules and claim ignorance. We also have all the historical records should the regulators ask for it if a spray drift event occurs.
Both the pilot mesonet in the Mid North and the subsequent network in the Riverland Mallee were actually strongly supported by local growers. Many farmers are embracing the latest AgTech to farm more efficiently.
A majority of pesticide sprays such as 2,4-D and glyphosate have label requirements that state they cannot be sprayed during an inversion. It is illegal to spray during an inversion and farmers must keep records of their spray times. Without the mesonet, spray applicators had no easy way to know if an inversion was present or not. Given inversions typically happen at night time, many growers adopted a method of not spraying from dusk until dawn. Now, with the mesonet data, they find that their ‘spray window’ is possibly different and may even open up more time for them to spray. Most farmers want to do the right thing, and now they have the real-time data to make informed decisions.
Also, the public nature of the data display means that anyone spraying during an inversion will be noticed by their neighbours. This will hopefully lead to cultural change and practice change as the public data will make it highly awkward for ’cowboy’ growers in the community to flout the rules and claim ignorance. We also have all the historical records should the regulators ask for it if a spray drift event occurs.
Anyone else in SA might be familiar with the Mintaro Maze (https://mintaromaze.com.au/) which looks to be in the zone of the Mid North network. They have had a significant part of the maze's conifers lost to pesticide spray drift - a hedge that took many years to grow and shape.
Yes, the Mintaro Maze is indeed within our region and there is a weather station in Mintaro as well. I didn't know about the spray damage to the hedge maze - that's so sad!
What are the most dangerous pesticides in use in Australia?
Are farmers liable for damage now or in the past from improper application of pesticides?
Hi Nelson
I’m not an agriculturalist so I’d have to ask a colleague about the most dangerous pesticides in use in Australia. The most common herbicides used in the regions we work in are glyphosate (i.e. ‘Round-Up’) and 2,4-D. These are also the most likely culprits of damaged crops from spray drift events.
Spray applicators can be fined now (and in the past) if they are found to have breached spraying rules. Spraying rules involves suitable weather conditions, as well as things like droplet size, boom height, nozzle size etc. Spray applicators need to keep a log/record of all their spraying activities and the current weather etc. They can likely be sued by the affected farmer, but I’m not sure about how often they end up having to pay damages.
Long-distance spray drift (common during an inversion) can be impossible to identify the source(s)/culprit(s). Until now, farmers may have unwittingly sprayed during an inversion or some rogue farmers may have taken advantage of the fact that no-one could prove that it was inversion. Because of our mesonet and real-time data, this is no longer the case. Spray applicators legally MUST adhere to the label directions (do NOT spray during an inversion). And the public nature of our website and data mean that anyone out spraying when the mesonet indicates hazardous conditions will face community backlash – this is also a strong driver for behaviour change / practice change.
I’m not an agriculturalist so I’d have to ask a colleague about the most dangerous pesticides in use in Australia. The most common herbicides used in the regions we work in are glyphosate (i.e. ‘Round-Up’) and 2,4-D. These are also the most likely culprits of damaged crops from spray drift events.
Spray applicators can be fined now (and in the past) if they are found to have breached spraying rules. Spraying rules involves suitable weather conditions, as well as things like droplet size, boom height, nozzle size etc. Spray applicators need to keep a log/record of all their spraying activities and the current weather etc. They can likely be sued by the affected farmer, but I’m not sure about how often they end up having to pay damages.
Long-distance spray drift (common during an inversion) can be impossible to identify the source(s)/culprit(s). Until now, farmers may have unwittingly sprayed during an inversion or some rogue farmers may have taken advantage of the fact that no-one could prove that it was inversion. Because of our mesonet and real-time data, this is no longer the case. Spray applicators legally MUST adhere to the label directions (do NOT spray during an inversion). And the public nature of our website and data mean that anyone out spraying when the mesonet indicates hazardous conditions will face community backlash – this is also a strong driver for behaviour change / practice change.
In your website I see “atmospheric stability” as a measurement. How is this measured as “stable” or “unstable”?
Hi Jeremy
For our current Mesonets, we simply measure the presence of an inversion (i.e. the temperature differential between 10m and 1.2m). However, we can also measure other forms of atmospheric stability such as the categorises in the Pasquill Gifford stability classes, as well as various wind fluctuations and Richardson number etc.
We are keeping abreast of the most up-to-date science around measures of atmospheric stability and spraying so we are ‘future-proofed’ for new discoveries that may pop up in Met Journals in the next year or two.
We are keeping abreast of the most up-to-date science around measures of atmospheric stability and spraying so we are ‘future-proofed’ for new discoveries that may pop up in Met Journals in the next year or two.
Damon, is your source data exportable? Here's a use case: for a moment-in-time (your data), calibrate another device(my data) based on your sample? Can I set up a pipeline to implement that workflow?
Hi JayGray
Altho we received Government funding to establish the mesonet, we receive no ongoing funding to maintain the weather stations or the web app. Hence we are looking into revenue streams to ensure the longevity of the mesonet; advertising space and data on-selling/paid subscriptions.
We display 10-minutely data for the past 48 hours on the web app. We keep all historical data and it can be purchased from us for a fee. We are moving towards a paid premium subscription model to streamline this (whilst also working on further value-adds such as ET0, and accumulated crop vernal/thermal times). We are also investigating the potential to commercialise access via API.
Altho we received Government funding to establish the mesonet, we receive no ongoing funding to maintain the weather stations or the web app. Hence we are looking into revenue streams to ensure the longevity of the mesonet; advertising space and data on-selling/paid subscriptions.
We display 10-minutely data for the past 48 hours on the web app. We keep all historical data and it can be purchased from us for a fee. We are moving towards a paid premium subscription model to streamline this (whilst also working on further value-adds such as ET0, and accumulated crop vernal/thermal times). We are also investigating the potential to commercialise access via API.
Thank you for trying.
It saddens me how easy it still is for companies how easy it is to dump toxics in the air, water and land.
The proof often falls upon the "people" to prove chemicals used by companies are toxic instead of companies profiting from releasing them in to the environment providing extensive research that doing so is actually safe. Often years, if not decades before enough research is done before the harm is proven and legislation is made. It needs to be the other way around.
In the meanwhile the individual suffering caused is immense. Of course Dupont is a famous relatively recent example. Related to this project the link between pesticides and neurological diseases, like Parkinson, is strong but still needs a lot research before actual changes will be made.
It saddens me how easy it still is for companies how easy it is to dump toxics in the air, water and land.
The proof often falls upon the "people" to prove chemicals used by companies are toxic instead of companies profiting from releasing them in to the environment providing extensive research that doing so is actually safe. Often years, if not decades before enough research is done before the harm is proven and legislation is made. It needs to be the other way around.
In the meanwhile the individual suffering caused is immense. Of course Dupont is a famous relatively recent example. Related to this project the link between pesticides and neurological diseases, like Parkinson, is strong but still needs a lot research before actual changes will be made.
I don't know how this thing goes outside of EU, but here as a farmer I have to go throgh state multiday exams every few years that makes me personally liable for all harm to other crops, population of bees and people who actually operate tractors.
As a person in charge of spray program I have to make sure that weather condition is ok to spray (temperature, wind), my sprayers comply to standards and are tested in certified laboratory (things jet size, droplet size and uniformity) and I need to log every information and keep all that records for years to be checked by authorities anytime (and they do check them often).
It is easy to see pesticides as a easy target, but I am affraid that it is actually not easy to dump toxic in the air, water and land as almost any gram of pesticide and packaging have to be accounted for and handled with care.
(btw I am working in organic agriculture and do not use any pesticides except of sulfur and bit of a copper and I don't have any interest in conventional agriculture business)
As a person in charge of spray program I have to make sure that weather condition is ok to spray (temperature, wind), my sprayers comply to standards and are tested in certified laboratory (things jet size, droplet size and uniformity) and I need to log every information and keep all that records for years to be checked by authorities anytime (and they do check them often).
It is easy to see pesticides as a easy target, but I am affraid that it is actually not easy to dump toxic in the air, water and land as almost any gram of pesticide and packaging have to be accounted for and handled with care.
(btw I am working in organic agriculture and do not use any pesticides except of sulfur and bit of a copper and I don't have any interest in conventional agriculture business)
Yeah, same here in Ontario I can't even spray organic products without a pesticide applicators license which involves a training course.
That's not to say the other local farmers don't do stupid things though. I get glyphosate drift into my vineyard almost every year.
That's not to say the other local farmers don't do stupid things though. I get glyphosate drift into my vineyard almost every year.
Hi Porcupine, sounds like your region could do with one of our mesonets! That being said, in Australia, weather conditions are often too hot to spray during the day hence many farmers look to spray early morning, dusk or at night-time. These times tend to be prime inversion weather which leads to mass long-distance spray drift events from multiple sources (hence the need for our mesonet). I assume in Ontario, spraying can usually be done during the day even in summer, so farmers spraying during an inversion is less of an issue there? Or is that a false assumption? Do you suspect that the glyphosate drift into your vineyard is localised from your neighbour?
Glyphosate is a lot safer than many organic products. Of course the later is a "chemical" with a "scary" name, while the later has great marketing and has been used for thousands of years.
You're not getting it and not telling me anything informative. It kills my grapevines. It's safe for humans and shitty to plants that aren't engineered to tolerate it. It's a dick-neighbour thing to do to spray it indiscriminately and in the wrong weather conditions but it happens _all the time_
It is harmful to your grapevines when it reaches them, that is very true and I don't want to down play that.
However it is less harmful than most organic options overall. It is completely harmless to humans or other wildlife. It doesn't build up over time.
However it is less harmful than most organic options overall. It is completely harmless to humans or other wildlife. It doesn't build up over time.
It's pretty widely accepted in the medical community that pesticides are correlated to Parkinson's. It seems to be connected to exposure over time, not necessarily build up in the body.
You are right that a so-called natural pesticide like rotenone seems to be even worse. They were able to induce parkinson with it in rats in just a few weeks. But also Glyphosate is looked at with a lot of suspicion.
Take this case study, they refer to several cases and epidemiologic research: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30799335/
Considering the medical attention and research it gets, I see no reason to be as sure as you are. Especially your believe that "it's completely harmless" seems to have no solid reasoning behind it.
You are right that a so-called natural pesticide like rotenone seems to be even worse. They were able to induce parkinson with it in rats in just a few weeks. But also Glyphosate is looked at with a lot of suspicion.
Take this case study, they refer to several cases and epidemiologic research: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30799335/
Considering the medical attention and research it gets, I see no reason to be as sure as you are. Especially your believe that "it's completely harmless" seems to have no solid reasoning behind it.
Water in Netherlands next to pastures and farmlands often had high levels of toxicity, meaning it was treated as chemical waste. Because of strict regulations got better. Still happens to certain rivers. Had natural parc next to river where I get my meat call back meat because of too high levels of toxicity just last year.
Certain factories here also still allowed to dump chemicals which in other countries are not allowed etc.
Next to that, in certain areas here residential areas and fruit trees mix. So even with limited spraying and limited wind, you are sitting in the garden while tractor is spraying the trees a few meters from you.
Certain factories here also still allowed to dump chemicals which in other countries are not allowed etc.
Next to that, in certain areas here residential areas and fruit trees mix. So even with limited spraying and limited wind, you are sitting in the garden while tractor is spraying the trees a few meters from you.
The issue here really isn't about it being "easy ... for companies how easy it is to dump toxics in the air".
Sure, the safety of chemical pesticides is an issue, and something for manufacturers, users and regulators to continue working on.
But the relevant issue here is that the most well-intentioned, responsible farmer, has not, until now, had the information available to determine whether spraying at a given point in time is safe, whereas, thanks to this platform, they now do.
Well aside from any health effects of pesticides on humans, it will always be the case that certain chemicals that are suitable to be applied to one type of crop will be potentially harmful to a different type of crop. That's the issue that this platform seeks to address, and it seems to be working so far.
Sure, the safety of chemical pesticides is an issue, and something for manufacturers, users and regulators to continue working on.
But the relevant issue here is that the most well-intentioned, responsible farmer, has not, until now, had the information available to determine whether spraying at a given point in time is safe, whereas, thanks to this platform, they now do.
Well aside from any health effects of pesticides on humans, it will always be the case that certain chemicals that are suitable to be applied to one type of crop will be potentially harmful to a different type of crop. That's the issue that this platform seeks to address, and it seems to be working so far.
My point being "working on" isn't really good enough when the health consequences for people are severe.
Take dupont, took decades. Now same is happening for pesticides. Many we use now simply will be forbidden in decades. Yet for now they will continue to be used and cause harm.
I happened to have grown up between we fruit trees and close people are paying the price. Residential areas and fruit trees mix here. Meaning the tractor with pesticides en herbicides are passing 5 to 10 meters from you while you are relaxing in the garden. Which hopefully in many countries is not the case.
Take dupont, took decades. Now same is happening for pesticides. Many we use now simply will be forbidden in decades. Yet for now they will continue to be used and cause harm.
I happened to have grown up between we fruit trees and close people are paying the price. Residential areas and fruit trees mix here. Meaning the tractor with pesticides en herbicides are passing 5 to 10 meters from you while you are relaxing in the garden. Which hopefully in many countries is not the case.
hows about stop spraying
Because organic farming is way more resource intensive and produces far less yield. Spray is necessary but just needs to be used appropriately.
Appropriate spraying and shifting away from such meat based diets would be best.
Appropriate spraying and shifting away from such meat based diets would be best.
I’m Damon, project engineer for the Mid North Mesonet and the Riverland and Mallee Mesonet in the state of South Australia.
A mesonet is a term for a network of automated weather stations designed to monitor meteorological phenomena at high geographic density and updated frequently.
We built these networks to help prevent pesticide spray drift - the phenomenon in which pesticide spray that is applied to a crop ends up drifting to other crops, sometimes many kilometres away.
Spray drift can be a huge problem, as it can lead to damage or even destruction of highly valuable crops, and can also cause pollution to waterways and harm to native ecosystems.
My father is a veteran meteorologist, and he has done extensive research into the weather conditions that cause spray drift.
The biggest weather factor is thermal inversions, the phenomenon in which temperature increases with increasing altitude, which usually happens in the evening and overnight, but can happen at other times.
Other meteorological phenomena also affect the likelihood of spray drift.
So we designed a weather station to measure all the relevant meteorological phenomena, and in particular to detect thermal inversions.
To read more info about the project’s background, the meteorology and the technical details of the weather stations, see this link:
https://cotl.com.au/launch.html
And the links to the actual mesonet web apps are:
Mid North Mesonet: https://midnorthmesonet.com.au/
Riverland and Mallee Mesonet: https://riverlandmalleemesonet.com.au/
I’ll be here to answer questions about the weather stations, and my father Warwick will also be around to answer questions about the meteorological aspects of the project.