Japanese man leaves horrible job, gets horrible letter from the company(soranews24.com)
soranews24.com
Japanese man leaves horrible job, gets horrible letter from the company
https://soranews24.com/2021/02/06/japanese-man-leaves-horrible-job-gets-even-more-shockingly-horrible-letter-from-the-company/
59 comments
I faced this as a foreigner working as a post-doc at a French company where it turns out French labor laws are a double-edged sword. I was offered a much better job towards the end of my contract and therefore handed my resignation in. I was then summoned to a meeting by HR and told if I wanted to leave before the end of my set-term contract (CDD) I was required to pay a considerable amount of money.
Thankfully my own manager (whom I was leaving) had my back and pointed out that since I was leaving for a permanent role (CDI) which my current employer had not yet offered to me in writing (though informally expected me to carry on), I could get around this.
I honestly don't know what they were expecting. How can you carry on working for a company against your will with the threat of being sued if you tried to leave, what sort of a working environment is that?
Thankfully my own manager (whom I was leaving) had my back and pointed out that since I was leaving for a permanent role (CDI) which my current employer had not yet offered to me in writing (though informally expected me to carry on), I could get around this.
I honestly don't know what they were expecting. How can you carry on working for a company against your will with the threat of being sued if you tried to leave, what sort of a working environment is that?
Sorry to hear about that.
It is very important imo to always remember that it is just a job. Even if you are career driven, self starter, workaholic, try to soak up as much knowledge and do not do crazy overtime except maybe a bit in a startup if you are one of the first 10 employees and believe in the product.
No company will say thanks for wrecking your personal life and ending up burned out.
It is still perfectly possible to climb the career ladder without overtime and doing extra tasks for no extra pay etc.
Time is a persons most valuable asset and the companies know that. Do not waste it on repetitive monkey tasks which are the result of multiple product development failures covered up by incompetent managers. There is not much to learn in these places. These are for people with sub average ambitions, fair enough.
Your point with the hr would be funny if it weren't so sad and real. Anyone who was ever subject to such will immediately understand why concentration camps have happened. Never trust HR beyond rota planning and perhaps payroll. They are the ones posting these ridiculous developer job adverts, we have all seen them.
No company will say thanks for wrecking your personal life and ending up burned out.
It is still perfectly possible to climb the career ladder without overtime and doing extra tasks for no extra pay etc.
Time is a persons most valuable asset and the companies know that. Do not waste it on repetitive monkey tasks which are the result of multiple product development failures covered up by incompetent managers. There is not much to learn in these places. These are for people with sub average ambitions, fair enough.
Your point with the hr would be funny if it weren't so sad and real. Anyone who was ever subject to such will immediately understand why concentration camps have happened. Never trust HR beyond rota planning and perhaps payroll. They are the ones posting these ridiculous developer job adverts, we have all seen them.
In the sporting world, the disgruntled employee just implies that they aren't or won't play to their ability, and the team quickly looks to move them on. Of course, the club is generally getting something back in the form of a trade however.
Well, if you sign a fixed CDD contract, then you are also expected to stay till the end. By law, both sides cant cancel it, except with common agreement.
If you dont expect to stay till the end, then dont sign, or ask for a shorter cdd which can also be renewed at most one more time depening on the company, or concerted into a cdi
If you dont expect to stay till the end, then dont sign, or ask for a shorter cdd which can also be renewed at most one more time depening on the company, or concerted into a cdi
It's this kind of rigid adherence to bureaucracy which has no bearing on reality that drove me mad. They have absolutely zero leverage here and it's in everybody's interest to let an employee leave at that point.
Ok so I don't officially leave, but I just stop turning up for work. What are they going to do, fire me? Ça marche, adieu...
Ok so I don't officially leave, but I just stop turning up for work. What are they going to do, fire me? Ça marche, adieu...
This would be called "abandon du poste".
In the worst case, you would risk getting a "faute grave" added into your police register ("casier judiciaire"). Your employer could also sue you for damages.
Best is always to find an agreement with your employer.
In the worst case, you would risk getting a "faute grave" added into your police register ("casier judiciaire"). Your employer could also sue you for damages.
Best is always to find an agreement with your employer.
How could a company conduct itself in such a way, and still expect to retain a fruitful business?
As someone from europe, I sometimes don't know what to think of japanese work culture from stories like these. Regardless if it's real, I often feel as if I'm missing a lot of context.
As someone from europe, I sometimes don't know what to think of japanese work culture from stories like these. Regardless if it's real, I often feel as if I'm missing a lot of context.
>"As someone from europe"
The way Europe (Italy in particular) treats for example guest farm workers is hardly better if not worse.
Edit:
Downvoters might want to take a look at this for example: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/11/world/europe/a-womans-dea...
The way Europe (Italy in particular) treats for example guest farm workers is hardly better if not worse.
Edit:
Downvoters might want to take a look at this for example: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/11/world/europe/a-womans-dea...
As an italian, poor condition of agricultural workers it's a well known problem, especially in south Italy well they "hire" african aliens, sometimes working for 2 or 3€/hour
I'm not sure if black companies really suffer from a lack of business. AFAIK, Watami is still well in business despite being awarded the black company of the year award multiple times. They had a 26-year-old employee kill herself two months after joining the company with something like 140 hours of overtime. I think they also had an infamous ad on their website where a man with kind of worrying look to him was praising working for the company (https://livedoor.blogimg.jp/anico_bin/imgs/e/5/e5dbf3ca.jpg). I remember when Akiba's Trip the Animation actually decided to parody that particular ad when they had an episode about black companies (https://twitter.com/chocochip1126/status/832183431819784192).
There are no horrible workplaces in Europe?
Of course they are, but when you quit, it's you showing them the middle finger, not them trying to screw you over (unless they still owe you money, but cours there side with the workers usually... tbh. even too much sometimes).
I dare say that if such a letter were to be sent from a company in my country, it would be grounds for legal retaliation.
Why would you put insults into writing, in official letters no less?
Are insults illegal where you are?
In Germany, yes.[0]
Aside from that, in Germany it's a common practice to get an Arbeitszeugniss. It's essentially a transcript from your employer stating how you performed while on the job. By law it's has to be formulated to be positive about the employee. Because of this, you often have to read between the lines to understand the actual meaning of the transcript.
[0] http://legaldb.freemedia.at/legal-database/germany/
Aside from that, in Germany it's a common practice to get an Arbeitszeugniss. It's essentially a transcript from your employer stating how you performed while on the job. By law it's has to be formulated to be positive about the employee. Because of this, you often have to read between the lines to understand the actual meaning of the transcript.
[0] http://legaldb.freemedia.at/legal-database/germany/
Doesn't fix the problem though in case you have a bad manager. They will just be more subtle with their message.
Yes, there are common phrases used as codes. For example "made a highly competent job" -> very good; "made a very competent job" -> good; "made a compentent job" -> mediocre; "always aimed to make a competent job" -> really bad
[deleted]
That might be the exact reason they wouldn't put it in writing, but there are many "reputable" businesses in Europe and elsewhere with horrible conduct towards employees, with limited options to defend themselves for the employee without risking being worse off for the next career steps.
Depends how your salary is, but typically you won't do anything. I have witnessed a friend being bullied in such a way. She had to find about £5000 to pay for a solicitor to help her with employment tribunal case. Such money is out of reach to most employees. Yes, she tried "free" help that is available, but those people were useless, especially the union. Those people were not listening and were interested in checking the boxes and following templates and they made it worse in terms of mental health as my friend started losing hope. I helped her find a solicitor and paid first instalment, without my help she would go nowhere. In the end the employer settled - covered the solicitor costs, damages and gave good references so she could find a better job. The bullying employee continued to work there and was not sacked. Her ex-work friends kept struggling but had no means to do anything.
Sometimes they're just stupid. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was simply the case that it's what they do, it's what they've always done, and it sometimes works, so why stop now? And maybe it's normalized; maybe you go to the bar with some managers at other companies and they talk about doing the same things. If the average person in this situation just wants to move on, and get away as fast as possible, then maybe they're more prone to giving in to your demands than fighting back.
Probably mostly the first part.
Probably mostly the first part.
The article mentions _two_ instance of people hiring somebody to quit a job on their own behalf - what?
I know there are some Japanophiles here on HN - can somebody explain what that's all about?
I know there are some Japanophiles here on HN - can somebody explain what that's all about?
Breaking up with your partner is not pleasant. They may cry, throw things at you, threaten to hurt themselves etc.
Quitting a job is similar. I think even outside Japan it can be awkward leaving a job if you feel in some way indebted to your company. Now imagine your boss shouting at you, or maybe worse, appealing to your obligations not to leave the company, convincing you how doing so would make you unworthy of being considered a decent person, or even threatening to give you bad references, etc.
Sometimes it's actually that the other party isn't even malicious and doesn't have to be as ugly as described above. They may truly believe it's in your best interest not to abandon something.
Many people give in when faced with back pressure in those situations or at least struggle with going through such a stressful situation, i.e. many people know they may not be strong enough to go through with it when facing confrontation, so is it a surprise that a service that acts on your behalf is something people would use?
Now add to that that in Japan people generally try to avoid confrontation (esp. those likely to suffer at the workplace / school) and then imagine maybe being in a company that bullied you for years and you've seen others struggle with mustering up the courage to leave. Also, as far as I know, job hopping is still not seen as good. Many people still hope to stay at the first company they got into for a long time, with parents and partners hoping the same (and often pushing back against job changes).
Quitting a job is similar. I think even outside Japan it can be awkward leaving a job if you feel in some way indebted to your company. Now imagine your boss shouting at you, or maybe worse, appealing to your obligations not to leave the company, convincing you how doing so would make you unworthy of being considered a decent person, or even threatening to give you bad references, etc.
Sometimes it's actually that the other party isn't even malicious and doesn't have to be as ugly as described above. They may truly believe it's in your best interest not to abandon something.
Many people give in when faced with back pressure in those situations or at least struggle with going through such a stressful situation, i.e. many people know they may not be strong enough to go through with it when facing confrontation, so is it a surprise that a service that acts on your behalf is something people would use?
Now add to that that in Japan people generally try to avoid confrontation (esp. those likely to suffer at the workplace / school) and then imagine maybe being in a company that bullied you for years and you've seen others struggle with mustering up the courage to leave. Also, as far as I know, job hopping is still not seen as good. Many people still hope to stay at the first company they got into for a long time, with parents and partners hoping the same (and often pushing back against job changes).
There was a truly surreal article about this practice in The Atlantic several years back[0]. The practice of hiring someone to pretend to be someone else seems acceptable if not common. The man interviewed is hired to pretend to be some girl's father.
>Yuichi: In Japanese business culture, there is a situation where you have to visit a company and say I’m deeply sorry for what I did and just bow and bow. Occasionally, I dream about that.
>Morin: How does that work when you’re hired to do that in real life?
>Yuichi: Usually, I accompany a salaryman who made a mistake. I take the identity of the salaryman myself, then I apologize profusely for his mistake. Have you seen the way we say sorry? You go have to down on your hands and knees on the floor. Your hands have to tremble. So, my client is there standing off to the side—the one who actually made the mistake—and I’m prostrate on the floor writhing around, and the boss is there red-faced as he hurls down abuse from above. Sometimes, I wonder to myself, “Am I actually doing this?”
[0]https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2017/11/paying-fo...
>Yuichi: In Japanese business culture, there is a situation where you have to visit a company and say I’m deeply sorry for what I did and just bow and bow. Occasionally, I dream about that.
>Morin: How does that work when you’re hired to do that in real life?
>Yuichi: Usually, I accompany a salaryman who made a mistake. I take the identity of the salaryman myself, then I apologize profusely for his mistake. Have you seen the way we say sorry? You go have to down on your hands and knees on the floor. Your hands have to tremble. So, my client is there standing off to the side—the one who actually made the mistake—and I’m prostrate on the floor writhing around, and the boss is there red-faced as he hurls down abuse from above. Sometimes, I wonder to myself, “Am I actually doing this?”
[0]https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2017/11/paying-fo...
This is fascinating. Someone needs to make a movie about this.
Here in the US you can hire a broker to negotiate with a car dealer for you. This is because car negotiations are tedious, uncomfortable, and full of pitfalls and the broker is an expert who can handle it the best possible way (for a fee).
This is probably the same sort of thing, an expert quitter can turn in your resignation and wont won’t be enticed/coerced to take it back
This is probably the same sort of thing, an expert quitter can turn in your resignation and wont won’t be enticed/coerced to take it back
OT, but maybe useful for some people here: AAA has (had? It’s been a while.) an under-publicized car-purchasing program where they negotiate a small fixed markup for members. It was great when I used it, least stressful purchase of my life.
I live in Europe. My union offers to negotiate employment contract termination on my behalf as part of their services to members.
Now resignation negotiation as a service is getting popular in Japan.
If the movie ‘up in the air’ depicts real situations, and I’m pretty sure it does, we have the opposite in the US, where a team is brought in to fire you. I guess it’s because it’s awkward but also because they fear your reaction.
That or from what I’ve read, they just get security to escort you out.
I guess for those who do not want to put themselves through that situation it is easier to pay someone to do it for you.
Other people have covered this at length already but I figured I could toss in my 2p.
The term black company is thrown around with varying levels of severity but "actual" black companies like the one being described here aren't just shitty companies to work for, they are straight up abusive.
With these types of companies you'll be expected to be at work before your boss arrives and leave work after your boss leaves. This applies for everyone including leadership all the way up to the top which results in ground level employees being forced to arrive very early and work until long after the end of the day all the while receiving no overtime.
In the cases where you do get off early, it's normally because of "mandatory fun" aka going to an izakaya (basically a bar with isolated or semi isolated rooms), pouring drinks for everyone senior to you, and drinking copious amounts of alcohol late into the night. Of course not drinking at pace with your seniors is varying levels of "disrespectful".
On top of this, the less senior you are, the more toxic BS you have to put up with.
Leadership (including more senior members who aren't actually your boss) can just push off work onto you and it's your fault if it doesn't get done.
The least senior woman will often be expected to act like a waitress and pour drinks at meetings largely regardless of their status.
On the worse end of things, these companies if you consider leaving have no qualms threatening to badmouth you/make you unhireable to the other companies in the industry in the area. Alternatively or even at the same time they often attempt to guilt you and turn your coworkers/friends against you with some variation of "you leaving is going to make your coworkers suffer" or "you are trying to destroy the company and you'll be responsible when your friends are unemployed". Of course this is varying levels of successful at preventing you from getting a job however it's near textbook abusive behaviour to keep you from leaving.
TLDR: Black company is used with varying levels of accuracy but true black companies are closer to a corporate personification of an abusive spouse than just being a shitty company to work for. They'll try to cut off lifelines (aka connections outside your work) and replace your identity with a dependency on your work by consuming all your time and forcing you to spend your little "free time" with your bosses and coworkers. From here any attempt to leave is met with standard abusive rhetoric.
Because of just how abusive these companies are, it's preferable to pay someone to resign for you so that they can't bully you into staying or even intimidate you into backing out from resigning before you actually enter the building. Once you hire them it's done and you can mentally mark the action as "complete" and prevent yourself from backing out.
The term black company is thrown around with varying levels of severity but "actual" black companies like the one being described here aren't just shitty companies to work for, they are straight up abusive.
With these types of companies you'll be expected to be at work before your boss arrives and leave work after your boss leaves. This applies for everyone including leadership all the way up to the top which results in ground level employees being forced to arrive very early and work until long after the end of the day all the while receiving no overtime.
In the cases where you do get off early, it's normally because of "mandatory fun" aka going to an izakaya (basically a bar with isolated or semi isolated rooms), pouring drinks for everyone senior to you, and drinking copious amounts of alcohol late into the night. Of course not drinking at pace with your seniors is varying levels of "disrespectful".
On top of this, the less senior you are, the more toxic BS you have to put up with.
Leadership (including more senior members who aren't actually your boss) can just push off work onto you and it's your fault if it doesn't get done.
The least senior woman will often be expected to act like a waitress and pour drinks at meetings largely regardless of their status.
On the worse end of things, these companies if you consider leaving have no qualms threatening to badmouth you/make you unhireable to the other companies in the industry in the area. Alternatively or even at the same time they often attempt to guilt you and turn your coworkers/friends against you with some variation of "you leaving is going to make your coworkers suffer" or "you are trying to destroy the company and you'll be responsible when your friends are unemployed". Of course this is varying levels of successful at preventing you from getting a job however it's near textbook abusive behaviour to keep you from leaving.
TLDR: Black company is used with varying levels of accuracy but true black companies are closer to a corporate personification of an abusive spouse than just being a shitty company to work for. They'll try to cut off lifelines (aka connections outside your work) and replace your identity with a dependency on your work by consuming all your time and forcing you to spend your little "free time" with your bosses and coworkers. From here any attempt to leave is met with standard abusive rhetoric.
Because of just how abusive these companies are, it's preferable to pay someone to resign for you so that they can't bully you into staying or even intimidate you into backing out from resigning before you actually enter the building. Once you hire them it's done and you can mentally mark the action as "complete" and prevent yourself from backing out.
The original tweet[1] containing a photo of the letter is from a Twitter account that no longer exists. Hard to determine the provenance and veracity of said letter, which is full of grammatical errors.[2]
[1] https://twitter.com/kachokun/status/1357366042972987396
[2] https://twitter.com/romanbaken/status/1357549910124449793
[1] https://twitter.com/kachokun/status/1357366042972987396
[2] https://twitter.com/romanbaken/status/1357549910124449793
It's literally on archive.is, though. https://archive.is/oTX33
along with their twitter account: https://archive.is/VNQg8
along with their twitter account: https://archive.is/VNQg8
Yes, I am not doubting that the tweet was made by that (now nonexistent) Twitter account, but the authenticity of the letter.
Then why bring up their deleted account?
Clearly, enough people from Japan thought it was real -- so whether this specific case is or is not real, the general atmosphere in Japan is such that they find it likely enough to be real, which by itself is worth reporting on.
Clearly, enough people from Japan thought it was real -- so whether this specific case is or is not real, the general atmosphere in Japan is such that they find it likely enough to be real, which by itself is worth reporting on.
unnouinceput(1)
I was about to post "This is the internet. Why would someone believe the letter is authentic?" when I saw your comment.
Really, just weigh the likelihood of a company taking the time to write such an over-the-top letter, against the insatiable desire of many people on social media for notoriety.
Really, just weigh the likelihood of a company taking the time to write such an over-the-top letter, against the insatiable desire of many people on social media for notoriety.
Why do people work for these companies? Is there no other option? Is the pay great? Is it not clear that they're a bad company before getting hired?
From my understanding, working for a major company is really bound up in your social standing in Japanese society. Think of it like health insurance in the US, except everyone in the entire society will kind of think you're a bum if you don't work for one of these companies, and it will color things like your interactions with police and your ability to rent an apartment. And, I think, it's more common these days not to work for one of these companies, so it's an issue for more and more people.
If it’s getting more common why isn’t societal attitudes and expectations adjusting with the times then? Surely the Japanese are aware of their backward work culture and inefficiency in the eyes of the rest of the world?
your interactions with police
Fuck, as if the cops need yet another reason to be nasty :(
Fuck, as if the cops need yet another reason to be nasty :(
Maybe similar to these: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26512830
I went to school with the author of this article. We actually lived in the same foreign language immersion dormitory together and used to hang out now and then. He has been living in Japan and writing for this magazine for many years. What a trip.
That letter reads like his boss was exceptionally butthurt about the guy leaving. I'm guessing their working practices are becoming more well known and it's impossible to find qualified people to take the job.
Adjacent: I found this part of the article particularly interesting:
“People-rental services are fairly common in Japan, where you can rent anyone from a middle-aged man to give you life advice, to someone to become friends with your spouse to see if they’re cheating on you.”
“People-rental services are fairly common in Japan, where you can rent anyone from a middle-aged man to give you life advice, to someone to become friends with your spouse to see if they’re cheating on you.”
Reminds me of my experience working for Dr. Jarvik at Jarvik Heart in Manhattan...
I guess I shouldn't judge someone by looks, but he just looks like a horrible person.
It sounds very emotionally rough. I'd worry more about the legal ramifications and in which direction they go.
At least they were straightforward... what I hat the most is when they do something behind your back to hurt you.
It sounds fake to be honest.
Too much of reality does, though.
For sure, but most fake sounding stories online are actually fake. I would trust this if it's confirmed, by a reputable newspaper from example.
They try to make sure as little as possible is spilled to the public.
If they do and if you can, have them fire you and then send the corresponding tribunal after them.
Also make sure to post a candid review on glassdoor. Perhaps google and LinkedIn.
Do not forget to hit back, do not be their punching bag. You will find out that bullies crumble very fast when facing resistance.
This is one of the reasons why I will always support unions, as long the employers and managements cannot get their egos in order.