Amazon Keeps Getting Sued for Paying Drivers Less Than Minimum Wage(vice.com)
vice.com
Amazon Keeps Getting Sued for Paying Drivers Less Than Minimum Wage
https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjpyqm/amazon-keeps-getting-sued-for-paying-drivers-less-than-minimum-wage
192 comments
The whole thing seems to be a corporatized version of a carny game. Amazon is behind the counter, promising gullible passersby top prizes if they can toss a ring over a bottle.
"Watch me, I'll show you how easy it is!"
But instead of young couples on dates being taken for $20 a pop on promises of large stuffed animals, they're luring in new business owners with promises of riches. The problem is, it's a rigged game. Amazon know it, otherwise they'd do this work themselves.
"Watch me, I'll show you how easy it is!"
But instead of young couples on dates being taken for $20 a pop on promises of large stuffed animals, they're luring in new business owners with promises of riches. The problem is, it's a rigged game. Amazon know it, otherwise they'd do this work themselves.
Reminds me of Terry Pratchett’s Going Postal. spoiler warning
The MC is a conman, given new life and a job resuscitating the postal service after a corporation has taken over and gutted the Clacks (in-world version of the Telegraph). The MC meets the financial architect who masterminded the takeover of the Clacks and is struck with immediate recognition: this guy is just like him, only infinitely better at it. He plays three card Monty with entire companies, and the trail of destruction he leaves in his wake is massive.
If you do it with enough money, it’s not a crime anymore, it’s just business.
The MC is a conman, given new life and a job resuscitating the postal service after a corporation has taken over and gutted the Clacks (in-world version of the Telegraph). The MC meets the financial architect who masterminded the takeover of the Clacks and is struck with immediate recognition: this guy is just like him, only infinitely better at it. He plays three card Monty with entire companies, and the trail of destruction he leaves in his wake is massive.
If you do it with enough money, it’s not a crime anymore, it’s just business.
Yep, and if the punishment is typically fines that take a small percentage of your profit, why wouldn't you turn around and keep doing it.
The Moist von Lipwig trilogy is fantastic. Have you seen the TV movie?
Holy sh*t there’s a movie??
Thank you for making my day!
Thank you for making my day!
It’s on Amazon, I said the same thing! Enjoy! It’s a two parter.
I prefer to think if it as “The house always wins”
It's amazing to me that people often accept these kinds of "explanations" from corporations; as though it was some unintended eventuality, mistake, etc.
Not to mention the sheer gall of repeated corporate responses when caught like these that are ridiculous even at face value.
Most people don't seem to notice these "mistakes" are always to the benefit of the corporation. NEVER to the benefit of the customer, employee, etc.
Not to mention the sheer gall of repeated corporate responses when caught like these that are ridiculous even at face value.
Most people don't seem to notice these "mistakes" are always to the benefit of the corporation. NEVER to the benefit of the customer, employee, etc.
It's rude to call someone incompetent at their job. Unless they overlooked corruption, in which case it's rude to call them competent at their job. How odd.
The latter, and this is the accepted practice in modern corporations. How many times have the Gap or Apple been caught using child labor, only to terminate the contract and move on? If they don’t push these boundaries they’re considered irresponsible fiduciaries and may be replaced.
Amazon is just playing in the same broken system.
Amazon is just playing in the same broken system.
The greatest lie ever perpetuated in the United States corporate system is that a company's fiduciary duty justifies or excuses malbehavior.
You do not get to formulate sketchy ways of doing business because you must make shareholders money. They invested, and took a risk. They don't always get to win. Losses are not something that should be unfathomable. The fact that people haven't done that great a job at rooting this stuff out sooner is a bit on the mystifying side only up until you realize the folks we'd count on to do it are having their checks paid by the people getting investigated.
You do not get to formulate sketchy ways of doing business because you must make shareholders money. They invested, and took a risk. They don't always get to win. Losses are not something that should be unfathomable. The fact that people haven't done that great a job at rooting this stuff out sooner is a bit on the mystifying side only up until you realize the folks we'd count on to do it are having their checks paid by the people getting investigated.
They "terminate" the contract with a "supplier" who often it just a holding company or "contractor" in a 5 level deep shell game, and the "new" contractor is a name on a form but the same factory is making the same product with the same labor inside a week...
At some point we have to admit that the richest corporations and people in the world, with the most power to change the system, are not just playing in the system but are a part of what makes it broken. From their perspective the system is not broken at all — it’s doing exactly what it was designed to do, which is to make shareholders (themselves) fabulously rich at the expense of laborers.
On one side of the equation we have people being paid poverty wages, on the other side we have the richest man in the world with the power to change that. This isn’t a coincidence or just a strange, second-order, unintended byproduct of the system. It’s cause and effect. It’s what the system was designed explicitly to do. The system is in fact working to spec.
On one side of the equation we have people being paid poverty wages, on the other side we have the richest man in the world with the power to change that. This isn’t a coincidence or just a strange, second-order, unintended byproduct of the system. It’s cause and effect. It’s what the system was designed explicitly to do. The system is in fact working to spec.
But on the Amazon side of the fence, they are using their power to change that; they pay all employees at least $15, and are lobbying to get the federal minimum wage raised to that level from $7.25. So this can't just be a simple story of a company paying as little as they can get away with. Something's gone wrong to make them not care about (or not think they're responsible for) these delivery drivers.
They don't care. The only reason they have an interest/stake at $15 min wage is so they can crush anyone who might challenge them. Essentially solidify their position.
A rival might not be able to afford that so they let everyone go, or Amazon gobbles them up for dinner.
There's always an ulterior motive when lobbying is involved.
A rival might not be able to afford that so they let everyone go, or Amazon gobbles them up for dinner.
There's always an ulterior motive when lobbying is involved.
I'm not really sure how to engage with this. Surely you're not saying that it's bad to pay $15, or that Amazon ought to cut everyone's wages to make room for their competitors.
It's bad to require competitors to pay $15.
This is the thing that regularly gets lost in the minimum wage debates. Some jobs suck more than others. Amazon warehouse jobs suck kind of a lot. You spend all day standing up and doing manual labor. Because that's what it takes to make unskilled work produce $15/hour in value.
You pass a law requiring competitors to do the same and the ones who were paying $10/hour but workers had more down time, will have to make them more like Amazon jobs. In other words, will have to make them suck more.
There are a lot of people for whom that is not a good trade off. For a 20 year old who can physically do the Amazon job, it might be a good choice in order to make more money. For a 60 year old who can't physically do the Amazon job, taking away the less demanding job they can do is really screwing them over.
This is the thing that regularly gets lost in the minimum wage debates. Some jobs suck more than others. Amazon warehouse jobs suck kind of a lot. You spend all day standing up and doing manual labor. Because that's what it takes to make unskilled work produce $15/hour in value.
You pass a law requiring competitors to do the same and the ones who were paying $10/hour but workers had more down time, will have to make them more like Amazon jobs. In other words, will have to make them suck more.
There are a lot of people for whom that is not a good trade off. For a 20 year old who can physically do the Amazon job, it might be a good choice in order to make more money. For a 60 year old who can't physically do the Amazon job, taking away the less demanding job they can do is really screwing them over.
Amazon aside, I see the $15 argument more about making minimum wage, a concept we’re already engaged at a policy level, reflect reality. IMO if we’re going to have minimum wage in the US then we need to make it work for its intended purpose of requiring companies to pay people a living wage for their labor. If that were the goal we’d adjust minimum wage for inflation and cost of living since its inception and then require it to adjust every year as the value of the dollar does. In its current form it is more of an excuse for companies pay below a living wage.
> IMO if we’re going to have minimum wage in the US then we need to make it work for its intended purpose of requiring companies to pay people a living wage for their labor.
The best answer to this is that we shouldn't have a federal minimum wage.
Minimum wage is one of the depression era policies like price controls that were instituted before we knew better. It is a price control.
The reason we still have it is politics. Notice that the advocates of raising the federal minimum wage are overwhelmingly from states that already have a state minimum wage above the federal one, and could set their state's minimum wage to anything higher as they like, since it's a floor, not a ceiling. So why do they care?
They care because the cost of living is different in different regions. $7.25 might be a living wage in El Paso while $15 might not be in San Francisco. But California doesn't want their tax base moving to Texas, so politicians from California want federal laws that make it more expensive to do business in Texas. They want to deprive lower cost of living areas of their competitive advantage.
You can tell something is fishy when most of the supporters of raising the federal minimum wage represent zero people who actually make federal minimum wage, and the representatives of the people who do make federal minimum wage are the opponents.
And actually instituting the policy screws over the people it's supposed to be helping, because then the jobs stay in higher cost of living areas and the higher cost of living causes more harm than the lower wage would have in the lower cost of living area.
The best answer to this is that we shouldn't have a federal minimum wage.
Minimum wage is one of the depression era policies like price controls that were instituted before we knew better. It is a price control.
The reason we still have it is politics. Notice that the advocates of raising the federal minimum wage are overwhelmingly from states that already have a state minimum wage above the federal one, and could set their state's minimum wage to anything higher as they like, since it's a floor, not a ceiling. So why do they care?
They care because the cost of living is different in different regions. $7.25 might be a living wage in El Paso while $15 might not be in San Francisco. But California doesn't want their tax base moving to Texas, so politicians from California want federal laws that make it more expensive to do business in Texas. They want to deprive lower cost of living areas of their competitive advantage.
You can tell something is fishy when most of the supporters of raising the federal minimum wage represent zero people who actually make federal minimum wage, and the representatives of the people who do make federal minimum wage are the opponents.
And actually instituting the policy screws over the people it's supposed to be helping, because then the jobs stay in higher cost of living areas and the higher cost of living causes more harm than the lower wage would have in the lower cost of living area.
> But California doesn't want their tax base moving to Texas, so politicians from California want federal laws that make it more expensive to do business in Texas. They want to deprive lower cost of living areas of their competitive advantage.
And politicians from Texas want to institute tariffs on China and other countries with lower labor costs than Texas. Everyone is playing the same game to maintain their outsized share of the pie.
And politicians from Texas want to institute tariffs on China and other countries with lower labor costs than Texas. Everyone is playing the same game to maintain their outsized share of the pie.
So are you in favor of tariffs or are you against the minimum wage?
Federal UBI and no minimum wage or any other subsidy to anyone.
But that’s not going to happen, so it depends what benefits me and my closet tribe members. Currently I’m in a high cost of living area with very high minimum wages, so I’m for high minimum wages.
But that’s not going to happen, so it depends what benefits me and my closet tribe members. Currently I’m in a high cost of living area with very high minimum wages, so I’m for high minimum wages.
pay people a living wage for their labor
I truly don’t understand why so many think that someone doing less than what it takes to live (alone, independently) should be paid a living wage. Food, housing, energy, care, ... all take productivity; if someone can’t produce enough to cover their own needs, they need be recognized as a dependent and treated as such. It’s not your obligation to pay me a living wage just because you need floors swept or burgers flipped.
I truly don’t understand why so many think that someone doing less than what it takes to live (alone, independently) should be paid a living wage. Food, housing, energy, care, ... all take productivity; if someone can’t produce enough to cover their own needs, they need be recognized as a dependent and treated as such. It’s not your obligation to pay me a living wage just because you need floors swept or burgers flipped.
You don't really need that service performed that badly if you can't pay that much for it either. Offering crappy jobs is bad because people might actually take them; now they don't have the free time needed to find better ones. It reduces economic productivity and it might be cheaper to just pay them unemployment. Makes traffic better too since they're not commuting.
Who are you to decide and enforce that? You’re impeding progress on arbitrary grounds that it’s not progressing enough.
I want to start a coffee roastery. Margins won’t be “livable” for a while, but do need added labor to start; you (a complete stranger) would punish me for not starting better than where the starting point is.
I want to start a coffee roastery. Margins won’t be “livable” for a while, but do need added labor to start; you (a complete stranger) would punish me for not starting better than where the starting point is.
What of those unable to produce more than some value less than minimum wage? Not everyone is capable of $15/hr productivity, why would you deny them work? nobody is expecting them to achieve independence (say, bc Down’s Syndrome) but they can still produce some value and have a right to earn what they can.
There are tasks I’d hire people to do, but it’s not worth enough to pay housing/food/care/heat/etc for.
There are tasks I’d hire people to do, but it’s not worth enough to pay housing/food/care/heat/etc for.
Those people are already exempted. Group homes for people who can't live independently do have work placement programs, although I don't know how you prevent them from displacing "real" workers - presumably it's not that much of a problem.
Besides that, just paying people to do nothing works fine because they can do non-economic work (childcare/caretaking) or speculative things (write a book, go back to school) and US policy is heading back in this direction. We stopped with Reagan because voters tend to turn against welfare policies when you point out that black people are getting them.
Besides that, just paying people to do nothing works fine because they can do non-economic work (childcare/caretaking) or speculative things (write a book, go back to school) and US policy is heading back in this direction. We stopped with Reagan because voters tend to turn against welfare policies when you point out that black people are getting them.
> You don't really need that service performed that badly if you can't pay that much for it either.
You don't really need US-made goods, just buy the ones made in China. You don't really need an appliance repair service, just throw it out and buy another one. Fixed income people don't really need low priced goods and services, they can just pay more (somehow).
You're making the assumption that the alternative isn't worse.
> Makes traffic better too since they're not commuting.
Or makes traffic worse in the alternative because the higher-paying job involves a longer commute (and higher transportation costs that eat the extra money), which is what had made the lower-paying job viable to begin with.
> Offering crappy jobs is bad because people might actually take them; now they don't have the free time needed to find better ones.
This is patronizing. If something is really worse for people then why are they doing it? Are you certain that you're smarter than them and know more about their circumstances than they do?
> It reduces economic productivity and it might be cheaper to just pay them unemployment.
You've identified a serious flaw in the unemployment system. Taking a bad job causes you to lose it, remaining unemployed doesn't. Replace unemployment with a UBI. Now you don't need a minimum wage.
You don't really need US-made goods, just buy the ones made in China. You don't really need an appliance repair service, just throw it out and buy another one. Fixed income people don't really need low priced goods and services, they can just pay more (somehow).
You're making the assumption that the alternative isn't worse.
> Makes traffic better too since they're not commuting.
Or makes traffic worse in the alternative because the higher-paying job involves a longer commute (and higher transportation costs that eat the extra money), which is what had made the lower-paying job viable to begin with.
> Offering crappy jobs is bad because people might actually take them; now they don't have the free time needed to find better ones.
This is patronizing. If something is really worse for people then why are they doing it? Are you certain that you're smarter than them and know more about their circumstances than they do?
> It reduces economic productivity and it might be cheaper to just pay them unemployment.
You've identified a serious flaw in the unemployment system. Taking a bad job causes you to lose it, remaining unemployed doesn't. Replace unemployment with a UBI. Now you don't need a minimum wage.
> You don't really need US-made goods, just buy the ones made in China.
That's right, that's what we're doing. There are better systems than a flat minimum wage like wage boards since they're more flexible, but Australia uses that system a lot and yet also has a $20/hr min wage underlying it. (The Nordics don't have one at all because they use sectoral bargaining contracts. Should probably get one though.)
> This is patronizing. If something is really worse for people then why are they doing it?
Personal responsibility doesn't exist at the level of societies. Sometimes you just get scammed, and it takes a while to get out of the situation if you do. Banning bad jobs is useful the same way banning any other scam is.
> Replace unemployment with a UBI. Now you don't need a minimum wage.
UBI substitutes for unemployment here but it's not the same because the funding source is different. In particular the one for UBI doesn't exist. The US did just pass basic income for childcare though.
UBI does not substitute for minimum wage though, because it doesn't have the effect of eliminating bad jobs. In practice min wage seems to have other positive effects from this like forcing employee productivity to increase faster; in the limiting case with a monopsony employer it even increases employment because they have no other pressure to offer a market clearing wage.
That's right, that's what we're doing. There are better systems than a flat minimum wage like wage boards since they're more flexible, but Australia uses that system a lot and yet also has a $20/hr min wage underlying it. (The Nordics don't have one at all because they use sectoral bargaining contracts. Should probably get one though.)
> This is patronizing. If something is really worse for people then why are they doing it?
Personal responsibility doesn't exist at the level of societies. Sometimes you just get scammed, and it takes a while to get out of the situation if you do. Banning bad jobs is useful the same way banning any other scam is.
> Replace unemployment with a UBI. Now you don't need a minimum wage.
UBI substitutes for unemployment here but it's not the same because the funding source is different. In particular the one for UBI doesn't exist. The US did just pass basic income for childcare though.
UBI does not substitute for minimum wage though, because it doesn't have the effect of eliminating bad jobs. In practice min wage seems to have other positive effects from this like forcing employee productivity to increase faster; in the limiting case with a monopsony employer it even increases employment because they have no other pressure to offer a market clearing wage.
If we can't guarantee a minimum quality of life then we should enforce a maximum quality of life by limiting the spread. Tie the prosperity of the least productive to that of the most.
It is effectively illegal to be poor. The punishment is slavery or deaths of exposure and despair.
Billionaires are a failure of policy and should be treated as pirates, raiding the homes of their customers and employees.
It is effectively illegal to be poor. The punishment is slavery or deaths of exposure and despair.
Billionaires are a failure of policy and should be treated as pirates, raiding the homes of their customers and employees.
It already is tied. Western capitalism recognizes that expanding customer base and increasing customer wealth is good for business (see Henry Ford’s aphorism about paying workers a wage suitable to buy his product).
It is illegal to be poor because progressives impose laws making zoning, housing, food, jobs, etc too costly and punishing any who attempt to make lower wages livable.
Billionaires are because they make accessible goods/services to greater percentages of limited populations.
World abject poverty has plummeted from majority to near zero in my lifetime. That was capitalism improving productivity of all.
It is illegal to be poor because progressives impose laws making zoning, housing, food, jobs, etc too costly and punishing any who attempt to make lower wages livable.
Billionaires are because they make accessible goods/services to greater percentages of limited populations.
World abject poverty has plummeted from majority to near zero in my lifetime. That was capitalism improving productivity of all.
>It is illegal to be poor because progressives impose laws making zoning, housing, food, jobs, etc too costly and punishing any who attempt to make lower wages livable.
Pretty sure you mean Nimbys, unless you're suggesting that building high density houses next to coal burning plants is perfectly fine and should never have been banned. There's a difference between zoning that increases prosperity, and zoning for selfish incentives that you would be wise to consider before casting zoning laws as progressive, when that's patently false[0].
>Billionaires are because they make accessible goods/services to greater percentages of limited populations.
>World abject poverty has plummeted from majority to near zero in my lifetime. That was capitalism improving productivity of all.
You imply causation without evidence. Billionaires use extractive and ethically bankrupt methods to undercut their competitors while skimming their plunder off margin between a fair price and their true cost. This is neither necessary, nor sustainable to ensure prosperity for all. This randian perspective is emotionally comfortable for the winners but tragically harmful to literally everyone else.
0. https://www.theamericanconservative.com/urbs/zoning-reform-i...
Pretty sure you mean Nimbys, unless you're suggesting that building high density houses next to coal burning plants is perfectly fine and should never have been banned. There's a difference between zoning that increases prosperity, and zoning for selfish incentives that you would be wise to consider before casting zoning laws as progressive, when that's patently false[0].
>Billionaires are because they make accessible goods/services to greater percentages of limited populations.
>World abject poverty has plummeted from majority to near zero in my lifetime. That was capitalism improving productivity of all.
You imply causation without evidence. Billionaires use extractive and ethically bankrupt methods to undercut their competitors while skimming their plunder off margin between a fair price and their true cost. This is neither necessary, nor sustainable to ensure prosperity for all. This randian perspective is emotionally comfortable for the winners but tragically harmful to literally everyone else.
0. https://www.theamericanconservative.com/urbs/zoning-reform-i...
Because otherwise you have race to bottom in no time at all. There are low paid jobs,but limited options to go for cheap options forces companies to think how to increase productivity.
My guess is that most of the labor cost is due to delivery and not the warehouse. If they advocate for higher wages in the warehouse, regulators and the general public will be less suspicious of the policies that drive the lion's share of their labor costs.
I'm sure if they thought they could get away with "subcontracting (wink wink)" all of their labor positions so that they are not liable for the wage theft that must occur to meet the contracts, they would do so.
I'm sure if they thought they could get away with "subcontracting (wink wink)" all of their labor positions so that they are not liable for the wage theft that must occur to meet the contracts, they would do so.
I think you're correct. I used to get advertisements all the time for "logistics.amazon.com".
Which if you were to believe it, Amazon wants to "help" you start a delivery business, with as little as $10k to invest.
Think about that for a second.
Instead of paying delivery drivers and providing capital (trucks, gasoline, insurance, etc). Amazon wants YOU to pay them for the privilege. They've turned what should be a job into a contracting business with one, predatory customer. Amazon.
Which if you were to believe it, Amazon wants to "help" you start a delivery business, with as little as $10k to invest.
Think about that for a second.
Instead of paying delivery drivers and providing capital (trucks, gasoline, insurance, etc). Amazon wants YOU to pay them for the privilege. They've turned what should be a job into a contracting business with one, predatory customer. Amazon.
Is Chik-Fil-A preying on people by letting them start franchises? The investment requirement is actually the same and they're probably more onerous.
I've seen this argument around quite often, but it feels more and more like the product of the Amazon PR machine. It appears that in at least some cases wages for warehouse workers fell 30%[0] once Amazon opened it's warehouses. Amazon seems to be dragging warehouse wages down to $15 rather than up.
[0] https://www.economist.com/united-states/2018/01/20/what-amaz...
[0] https://www.economist.com/united-states/2018/01/20/what-amaz...
The Amazon jobs aren't forklift drivers. The wages of forklift drivers go down because Amazon automates a lot of that work, which means there is less demand for forklift drivers. It's the classic automation story and has basically nothing to do with what they pay to pickers.
The data in the economist article is for both forklift drivers and pickers. It seems fairly clear that even lower skilled warehouse workers are being paid less than they were before Amazon entered their market.
The fact that automation is both reducing the number and quality of jobs probably merits discussion as well. We simply don't have anything in place to ensure automation doesn't ruin people's standard of living.
The fact that automation is both reducing the number and quality of jobs probably merits discussion as well. We simply don't have anything in place to ensure automation doesn't ruin people's standard of living.
Building an economy on unskilled labour is a pretty bad idea. Anything that can be automated or outsourced WILL- capitalism demands it.
Amazon says one thing, behaves "responsibly" internally but still works with known bad actors till caught. Greed has gone wrong.
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They enacted the minimum wage when Bernie Sanders threatened them, years after they started outsourcing labor abuses.
That was just theater. Bernie's argument here made no sense and he knew it, but it sounded good.
He was arguing that society "has to pay people welfare" because Amazon doesn't pay enough. In other words he's arguing that paying welfare is bad, which is not true and goes against the rest of his platform. Actually it's good, and the reason it's good is that it raises your wages because it gives you more freedom!
In other words, without welfare the employees would be getting paid even less.
(This can change depending on work requirement rules, which are mostly bad, but not enough of a problem to change the dynamic here.)
He was arguing that society "has to pay people welfare" because Amazon doesn't pay enough. In other words he's arguing that paying welfare is bad, which is not true and goes against the rest of his platform. Actually it's good, and the reason it's good is that it raises your wages because it gives you more freedom!
In other words, without welfare the employees would be getting paid even less.
(This can change depending on work requirement rules, which are mostly bad, but not enough of a problem to change the dynamic here.)
> He was arguing that society "has to pay people welfare" because Amazon doesn't pay enough. In other words he's arguing that paying welfare is bad, which is not true and goes against the rest of his platform.
This is not quite the argument. What you're leaving out here is that Amazon can afford to pay enough, their CEO is the richest man in the world worth over a hundred billion dollars, and Amazon pays $0 in income tax. Bernie is not saying welfare is bad, he's saying that corporations using the welfare system to subsidize their profit margins while their CEO enriches himself is bad.
This is not quite the argument. What you're leaving out here is that Amazon can afford to pay enough, their CEO is the richest man in the world worth over a hundred billion dollars, and Amazon pays $0 in income tax. Bernie is not saying welfare is bad, he's saying that corporations using the welfare system to subsidize their profit margins while their CEO enriches himself is bad.
>>>and are lobbying to get the federal minimum wage raised to that level from $7.25.
What you fell for the Con...
Amazon wants $15 in order to put the final nail in the coffin of small business hiring that teen for their first job stocking the small local store...
No they want those positions gone, they want those business shuttered.
This idea that Amazon is "fighting for the worker" in their drive for $15/hr minimum wage is moronic.
$15/hr min wage is also not based on any economic reality and as a basis for a "living wage" it would be far to low in some reasons, and far too high in many others.
Minimum Wage should be a LOCAL, or state level policy not a national one.
What you fell for the Con...
Amazon wants $15 in order to put the final nail in the coffin of small business hiring that teen for their first job stocking the small local store...
No they want those positions gone, they want those business shuttered.
This idea that Amazon is "fighting for the worker" in their drive for $15/hr minimum wage is moronic.
$15/hr min wage is also not based on any economic reality and as a basis for a "living wage" it would be far to low in some reasons, and far too high in many others.
Minimum Wage should be a LOCAL, or state level policy not a national one.
> Amazon wants $15 in order to put the final nail in the coffin of small business hiring that teen for their first job stocking the small local store...
This is correct but it's a good thing because small businesses are unironically bad. Small business owners are the most reactionary demographic in the US, less productive than large businesses, the most abusive towards employees, and exempt from discrimination laws.
They also don't have negotiation power and can't improve anything with their suppliers (e.g. Chinese restaurants may all be family-owned, but they're all buying ingredients from the same place).
This is correct but it's a good thing because small businesses are unironically bad. Small business owners are the most reactionary demographic in the US, less productive than large businesses, the most abusive towards employees, and exempt from discrimination laws.
They also don't have negotiation power and can't improve anything with their suppliers (e.g. Chinese restaurants may all be family-owned, but they're all buying ingredients from the same place).
>> small businesses are unironically bad.
I did not think I would see the day that HN was pro corporation and Big business.
Aside from the fact your completely wrong, most people are employed by small or medium businessed, and SMB's are often more agile and able to respond faster to market demands than larger companies
This is why you do not see large companies innovating, instead they buy out small companies that have innovated in an effort to grab and/or hold the market share they lose to upstarts.
Also it is ironic that in a post dedicated to talking about how terrible Amazon treats its retail employee's and with provable evidence of employment abuse by other large companies on the world stage you stake a claim that small businesses are more abusive, that is laughably absurd
Small and medium business are the backbone of the economy, and in large part treat their employee's better than large companies. Sure some very small micro business with less than 25 employee's might but SMB is generally companies 25 - 1000 employees and under 1 billion in revenue. Companies this bracket often have some of the highest employee satisfaction scores, and lowest turn over it is absurd to to think that SMB's are worse than the Large Global Corporations.
I did not think I would see the day that HN was pro corporation and Big business.
Aside from the fact your completely wrong, most people are employed by small or medium businessed, and SMB's are often more agile and able to respond faster to market demands than larger companies
This is why you do not see large companies innovating, instead they buy out small companies that have innovated in an effort to grab and/or hold the market share they lose to upstarts.
Also it is ironic that in a post dedicated to talking about how terrible Amazon treats its retail employee's and with provable evidence of employment abuse by other large companies on the world stage you stake a claim that small businesses are more abusive, that is laughably absurd
Small and medium business are the backbone of the economy, and in large part treat their employee's better than large companies. Sure some very small micro business with less than 25 employee's might but SMB is generally companies 25 - 1000 employees and under 1 billion in revenue. Companies this bracket often have some of the highest employee satisfaction scores, and lowest turn over it is absurd to to think that SMB's are worse than the Large Global Corporations.
Have you seen what $15 buys nowadays? Nobody is worth less then $15 an hour. Nobody.
Yes, and a single person in may area can easily survive on that, a couple with no kids could likely afford to buy home with no problems. I have a feeling you live in one of deep blue cities where rent for a small apartment is $2,000 a month.
That said however, you have made a common mistake the people advocating for artificial increased in minimum wage make. It is not about what the person is "worth", it is about how much revenue a business can make off that labor
if a business has to pay $15 for labor, but can only resell that labor for $10, there is no job. hell even if a business can resell the labor for $15 there is no job.
This is economic reality, I know using emotion to talk about a persons "worth" may seem like a valid argument but it is not.
If the economic reality was just as simple as declearing labor is worth $15 by fiat, then why stop at $15, why not $20 or $50, hell let just demand everyone make $1,000,000 a year we will all be millionaries.
You likely easily see why this reducto absurdum I am sure you will reject it as a fallacy but the economic reality does not change
If you want to see wages increase you have to increase the value of labor, and government regulation can not simply demand the value of labor increase. Attempts to do so often have very bad unintended consequences
That said however, you have made a common mistake the people advocating for artificial increased in minimum wage make. It is not about what the person is "worth", it is about how much revenue a business can make off that labor
if a business has to pay $15 for labor, but can only resell that labor for $10, there is no job. hell even if a business can resell the labor for $15 there is no job.
This is economic reality, I know using emotion to talk about a persons "worth" may seem like a valid argument but it is not.
If the economic reality was just as simple as declearing labor is worth $15 by fiat, then why stop at $15, why not $20 or $50, hell let just demand everyone make $1,000,000 a year we will all be millionaries.
You likely easily see why this reducto absurdum I am sure you will reject it as a fallacy but the economic reality does not change
If you want to see wages increase you have to increase the value of labor, and government regulation can not simply demand the value of labor increase. Attempts to do so often have very bad unintended consequences
People love the stupid make it a million dollars argument, thanks for throwing that garbage in here.
You can absolutely set a floor for labor. Go back and study some history, then maybe you'll be able to understand.
You can absolutely set a floor for labor. Go back and study some history, then maybe you'll be able to understand.
> How many times have the Gap or Apple been caught using child labor, only to terminate the contract and move on? If they don’t push these boundaries they’re considered irresponsible fiduciaries and may be replaced.
Strange how these companies keep getting hoodwinked into profiting immensely from slave labor. I mean, how could a billion or trillion dollar company know whether or not its supply chain uses slaves to produce the goods they sell? It seems like the only way to know if slaves produced their goods is to get caught red-handed by someone else. How do these underfunded NGOs and regulators catch the companies innocently profiting from slave labor?
Strange how these companies keep getting hoodwinked into profiting immensely from slave labor. I mean, how could a billion or trillion dollar company know whether or not its supply chain uses slaves to produce the goods they sell? It seems like the only way to know if slaves produced their goods is to get caught red-handed by someone else. How do these underfunded NGOs and regulators catch the companies innocently profiting from slave labor?
> Are you really outsourcing labor or are you outsourcing the risks associated with abuses of labor needed to meet your demands?
The same thing companies do when they go to a different state within the US with weaker labor and environmental laws. And the same thing individuals do when choosing to purchase products at cheaper prices from places with weaker labor/environmental laws.
Blaming individual companies for regulatory arbitrage is a fruitless endeavor.
The same thing companies do when they go to a different state within the US with weaker labor and environmental laws. And the same thing individuals do when choosing to purchase products at cheaper prices from places with weaker labor/environmental laws.
Blaming individual companies for regulatory arbitrage is a fruitless endeavor.
The problem here as seen from Amazon's point of view isn't that someone broke the rules, it's that they were busted for doing so. Same with Apple and any other corp where a contractor violates the rules; you punish them for being discovered, not for breaking the rules in the first place.
> If Amazon is serious about fixing the problem and committed to good labor practices, stop contracting out services and take control of the issue. Set policies in place with teeth that remove managers and middle managers caught pushing such work conditions.
We can see from Amazon's actions, and lack of actions, that they're as committed to not breaking labor laws as they are committed to not committing fraud and IP & trademark infringement by selling counterfeit items on their marketplace.
That is to say, it's all rhetoric and PR. After all of this time, and reading countless words from Amazon promising to fix it, I still cannot report to Amazon that I received a counterfeit item from them via their return process, and Amazon drivers are still making less than minimum wage.
We can see from Amazon's actions, and lack of actions, that they're as committed to not breaking labor laws as they are committed to not committing fraud and IP & trademark infringement by selling counterfeit items on their marketplace.
That is to say, it's all rhetoric and PR. After all of this time, and reading countless words from Amazon promising to fix it, I still cannot report to Amazon that I received a counterfeit item from them via their return process, and Amazon drivers are still making less than minimum wage.
> At some point you can't pass blame for repeated violations through contract vehicles.
At what hypothetical point is this? I'm pretty sure you can do this indefinitely, which is why they do it.
At what hypothetical point is this? I'm pretty sure you can do this indefinitely, which is why they do it.
From Fight Club:
"A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one."
"A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one."
People criticize this logic... But it's absolutely correct.
If it doesn't come out with results you like, then the inputs are wrong. Specifically, settlement amounts are probably too low.
People who claim all safety related issues should get a recall are just wrong. If there is a 1 in a billion chance my car explodes and kills me, then a recall should not be done, because my chances of dying on the way to the dealer to have the repair done are higher.
If it doesn't come out with results you like, then the inputs are wrong. Specifically, settlement amounts are probably too low.
People who claim all safety related issues should get a recall are just wrong. If there is a 1 in a billion chance my car explodes and kills me, then a recall should not be done, because my chances of dying on the way to the dealer to have the repair done are higher.
We shouldn't expect corporations to be so recklessly amoral. I'm all in favor of higher costs for doing shit like this, but the humans making the decisions bear moral responsibility for them. When they bury critical safety issues, they should be held accountable whether or not this particular financial calculus went their way.
Are there serious "people who claim all safety-related issues should get a recall"? That's not the only other available position. Not every safety incident needs to lead to a recall, but that doesn't prevent good-faith judgements on whether or not one is necessary. The fact that we assume this won't happen demonstrates how catastrophically awry we've allowed the artificial construct of a corporation to run.
Are there serious "people who claim all safety-related issues should get a recall"? That's not the only other available position. Not every safety incident needs to lead to a recall, but that doesn't prevent good-faith judgements on whether or not one is necessary. The fact that we assume this won't happen demonstrates how catastrophically awry we've allowed the artificial construct of a corporation to run.
>We shouldn't expect corporations to be so recklessly amoral.
Either that, or we treat them like any other animal incapable of civility - we cage/muzzle them and don't provide them with any opportunity for responsibility.
Either that, or we treat them like any other animal incapable of civility - we cage/muzzle them and don't provide them with any opportunity for responsibility.
Imagine if we had the "Nutrition Facts" equivalent for failure rates (and supply chain while we're at it.) That'd be an interesting world.
1. people will eventually tune them out, like with prop 65 warnings or the existing nutrition facts/calorie labeling
2. while it's easy to calculate what's the nutritional content in a food, estimating future failure rates isn't trivial and there's a lot of subjectivity involved. Companies will definitely be fudging the reliability numbers to get an edge. See for instance, the failure rates for hard drives. The annual failure rate on the spec sheets are around 0.3%, but empirical data by backblaze puts them anywhere from 0.3% to 12%. Therefore I'd expect these nutritional fact labels to be totally useless at best, and a waste of time/resources at worst.
2. while it's easy to calculate what's the nutritional content in a food, estimating future failure rates isn't trivial and there's a lot of subjectivity involved. Companies will definitely be fudging the reliability numbers to get an edge. See for instance, the failure rates for hard drives. The annual failure rate on the spec sheets are around 0.3%, but empirical data by backblaze puts them anywhere from 0.3% to 12%. Therefore I'd expect these nutritional fact labels to be totally useless at best, and a waste of time/resources at worst.
Prop 65 warnings are pretty useless though, since they have very limited information that does not allow one to evaluate the risk incurred.
Case in point, my first internship in California was in a building with a sign that said "This building contains chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm." What's in the building? Who knows. Could be really bad chemicals, or just someone who has a beer on their desk [0].
It would be much better to have some information about the chemicals contained, how bad are the chemicals, and what is the expected effect of the chemicals at the concentration at which they're encountered.
[0] https://oehha.ca.gov/chemicals/alcoholic-beverages-0
Case in point, my first internship in California was in a building with a sign that said "This building contains chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm." What's in the building? Who knows. Could be really bad chemicals, or just someone who has a beer on their desk [0].
It would be much better to have some information about the chemicals contained, how bad are the chemicals, and what is the expected effect of the chemicals at the concentration at which they're encountered.
[0] https://oehha.ca.gov/chemicals/alcoholic-beverages-0
Yes, they need some actionable information. I remember seeing my first one as 15 year old Canadian on vacation. My first thought was good thing I'm in Hawaii. My second thought was I can't do anything with this vague information.
It was some green slime you put in your bike tires to prevent puncture leaks. I had never seen that before. I bought it and took it home with me, skillfully avoiding California so it didn't become carcinogenic.
It was some green slime you put in your bike tires to prevent puncture leaks. I had never seen that before. I bought it and took it home with me, skillfully avoiding California so it didn't become carcinogenic.
So it was better when it was impossible to know what was in things and count calories? Not perfect doesn't mean not better.
> The annual failure rate on the spec sheets are around 0.3%, but empirical data by backblaze puts them anywhere from 0.3% to 12%.
I'd suggest dealing with that as fraud, not giving up.
> The annual failure rate on the spec sheets are around 0.3%, but empirical data by backblaze puts them anywhere from 0.3% to 12%.
I'd suggest dealing with that as fraud, not giving up.
His argument is pure straw, made up by him; not what is actually being argued by anyone.
I don't think it's correct and I don't think its correctness is objectively decidable.
It's one thing when companies have unforeseen flaws that end up causing injury or death. No one is perfect and, while they should pay reasonable restitution in line with the level of their mistake, it seems fine overall.
Other the other hand, knowingly producing a product that you are reasonably sure will unexpectedly[1] kill or hurt sometime should have severe penalties. Those penalties should be imposed not through individual lawsuits (which are a poor tool for assuring the rights of whole classes of people - class action lawsuits not withstanding), but through prevailing regulatory action. To be honest I don't think it would be going too far to, as a standard action, nationalize a company in that situation.
We really, really do not want a situation where companies are choosing to kill their customers because they think they will come out ahead in the end. Think about it - are we happy that the leadership teams of the tobacco industry, or the oil industry, or the fiberglass industry were kept in place? How much better of a world would we be in if tobacco companies were at existential threat from their behavior? Where they needed to sell cigarettes like the USA sells guns (with the understanding they may kill)? I think we should seriously consider that standard of product safety.
[1] Products like guns, which are intended to injure or destroy, are their own thing imo.
It's one thing when companies have unforeseen flaws that end up causing injury or death. No one is perfect and, while they should pay reasonable restitution in line with the level of their mistake, it seems fine overall.
Other the other hand, knowingly producing a product that you are reasonably sure will unexpectedly[1] kill or hurt sometime should have severe penalties. Those penalties should be imposed not through individual lawsuits (which are a poor tool for assuring the rights of whole classes of people - class action lawsuits not withstanding), but through prevailing regulatory action. To be honest I don't think it would be going too far to, as a standard action, nationalize a company in that situation.
We really, really do not want a situation where companies are choosing to kill their customers because they think they will come out ahead in the end. Think about it - are we happy that the leadership teams of the tobacco industry, or the oil industry, or the fiberglass industry were kept in place? How much better of a world would we be in if tobacco companies were at existential threat from their behavior? Where they needed to sell cigarettes like the USA sells guns (with the understanding they may kill)? I think we should seriously consider that standard of product safety.
[1] Products like guns, which are intended to injure or destroy, are their own thing imo.
Nice, you built a good argument against a nonsense issue. Now try the actual issue instead of a straw man.
Modern society has become incapable of proper Risk Analysis
COVID has really highlighted this rather well. People do believe there should be zero risk, they will only accept risk when it has already been assimilated into their lives, but as a society we seem incapable of assimilating of new risk.
I use to think we would get fully autonomous cars, but now I am pretty sure we will never see this technology on the public roadways, not because it is infeasible, but because it can never ELIMINATE all risk to human life, as such it will be rejected by society.
Just like the "2 weeks to flatten the curve" transformed to "everyone self isolate until covid is no more" Automated driving is no longer about being "safer" in an objective way, it has to preventing all death, and if an automated car even causes one death then we must continue with human drivers, at least that is the view of many in society. We can not allow an algorithm to resolve a trolley problem, it is better a human do that.
As a society, we have become very very very risk adverse.
COVID has really highlighted this rather well. People do believe there should be zero risk, they will only accept risk when it has already been assimilated into their lives, but as a society we seem incapable of assimilating of new risk.
I use to think we would get fully autonomous cars, but now I am pretty sure we will never see this technology on the public roadways, not because it is infeasible, but because it can never ELIMINATE all risk to human life, as such it will be rejected by society.
Just like the "2 weeks to flatten the curve" transformed to "everyone self isolate until covid is no more" Automated driving is no longer about being "safer" in an objective way, it has to preventing all death, and if an automated car even causes one death then we must continue with human drivers, at least that is the view of many in society. We can not allow an algorithm to resolve a trolley problem, it is better a human do that.
As a society, we have become very very very risk adverse.
It was a specific US administration that said two weeks, whom employed the "right" experts to get this conclusion. They argued with him that it wasn't long enough, furthermore, without widespread PPE and compliance from the population, it was bound to fail. The curve did flatten even in spite of these difficulties.
All that being said, you're absolutely right, we could have just accepted that life comes with risk and allowed millions within the US to die within a couple months.
All that being said, you're absolutely right, we could have just accepted that life comes with risk and allowed millions within the US to die within a couple months.
>>The curve did flatten even in spite of these difficulties.
yes it did, then the goal posts were moved, it was no longer about hospital resources it became about death rates, then when death rates did not support the lock down narrative it become about infection rates
In reality (for many regions) it was always about political and economic control not public health
>>we could have just accepted that life comes with risk and allowed millions within the US to die within a couple months.
There are hundreds of different ways the pandemic could have been handled to believe the only 2 options where complete economic shutdown or death is moronic is in no way supported by the evidence, it sounds like you want have a fact based discussion but are leading off with emotional rhetoric, I am happy to debate facts, but I have no time or need for emotional responses or red herring fallacies
yes it did, then the goal posts were moved, it was no longer about hospital resources it became about death rates, then when death rates did not support the lock down narrative it become about infection rates
In reality (for many regions) it was always about political and economic control not public health
>>we could have just accepted that life comes with risk and allowed millions within the US to die within a couple months.
There are hundreds of different ways the pandemic could have been handled to believe the only 2 options where complete economic shutdown or death is moronic is in no way supported by the evidence, it sounds like you want have a fact based discussion but are leading off with emotional rhetoric, I am happy to debate facts, but I have no time or need for emotional responses or red herring fallacies
It's not even a question of risk. Every risk is a trade off against another one. Losing one life to an autonomous vehicle is unacceptable but losing ten to drunk drivers is fine? That's not a risk assessment at all. It's really politics masquerading as risk.
As soon as autonomous vehicles are approved you're going to have driverless Amazon delivery trucks ejecting packages in your driveway and emailing you that they've arrived.
All the truck drivers and their unions know that, so they do everything they can to inject fear mongering stories into the media every time there is a driverless car accident, because politics.
And the media eats it up because it's clickbait. If they provided a reasoned risk assessment then the conclusion wouldn't be "fear for your lives" which wouldn't drive as much traffic.
As soon as autonomous vehicles are approved you're going to have driverless Amazon delivery trucks ejecting packages in your driveway and emailing you that they've arrived.
All the truck drivers and their unions know that, so they do everything they can to inject fear mongering stories into the media every time there is a driverless car accident, because politics.
And the media eats it up because it's clickbait. If they provided a reasoned risk assessment then the conclusion wouldn't be "fear for your lives" which wouldn't drive as much traffic.
>>As soon as autonomous vehicles are approved you're going to have driverless Amazon delivery trucks ejecting packages in your driveway and emailing you that they've arrived.
That is unlikely, the population has a huge problem right now with package theft, even if it does not "cost" the customer anything when i order something I need the product it if stolen from me even if I get another one a few days later it makes me less likely to buy online for things. Amazon's market dominance is directly tied to 1-2 days delivery times.
Having a bunch of robots just toss packages 5 feet from the road might seem like a good idea to an MBA, but in reality it will make package delivery less reliable if I have to have 30% of my amazon packages redelivered because of theft, damange etc, amazon will lose its market share.
Already they are losing in many way in price, i am often times finding things for lower prices than on amazon, largely because of their INSANE platform charges (i.e the 30% "fulfilled by amazon" surcharge)
Amazon Retail business is still either break even or losing money, AWS supports the company. I am not sure they can withstand the hit that would come from fully autonomous package delivery.
>All the truck drivers and their unions know that,
I can assure you it is not Truck Drivers or the Truck Driver unions (which really have almost no power these days) that are at the heart of anti-automation reporting.
Insurance and Local governments have alot more at stake, hell most local governments have huge amounts of revenue that come from parking and other road related fines that would disappear entirely with fully automated cars.
That is unlikely, the population has a huge problem right now with package theft, even if it does not "cost" the customer anything when i order something I need the product it if stolen from me even if I get another one a few days later it makes me less likely to buy online for things. Amazon's market dominance is directly tied to 1-2 days delivery times.
Having a bunch of robots just toss packages 5 feet from the road might seem like a good idea to an MBA, but in reality it will make package delivery less reliable if I have to have 30% of my amazon packages redelivered because of theft, damange etc, amazon will lose its market share.
Already they are losing in many way in price, i am often times finding things for lower prices than on amazon, largely because of their INSANE platform charges (i.e the 30% "fulfilled by amazon" surcharge)
Amazon Retail business is still either break even or losing money, AWS supports the company. I am not sure they can withstand the hit that would come from fully autonomous package delivery.
>All the truck drivers and their unions know that,
I can assure you it is not Truck Drivers or the Truck Driver unions (which really have almost no power these days) that are at the heart of anti-automation reporting.
Insurance and Local governments have alot more at stake, hell most local governments have huge amounts of revenue that come from parking and other road related fines that would disappear entirely with fully automated cars.
> That is unlikely, the population has a huge problem right now with package theft
You're making the case that it won't matter because the problem is already present.
The human drivers already do this. How strong a case can you make that they won't be able to get away with something they already get away with?
> Already they are losing in many way in price, i am often times finding things for lower prices than on amazon, largely because of their INSANE platform charges (i.e the 30% "fulfilled by amazon" surcharge)
Complaint unrelated to driverless trucks.
> Insurance and Local governments have alot more at stake, hell most local governments have huge amounts of revenue that come from parking and other road related fines that would disappear entirely with fully automated cars.
By most accounts self-driving cars are going to reduce insurance liability because they don't drive drunk or text and drive or get tired or angry or distracted. But also, insurance companies don't really care about claims when they're predictable except to the extent that the corresponding premiums are so high they discourage people from buying insurance, which is a high bar when car insurance is required by law.
And listing additional groups who have the incentive to throw shade on self-driving cars for underhanded political reasons rather than legitimate risks is just more to the point.
You're making the case that it won't matter because the problem is already present.
The human drivers already do this. How strong a case can you make that they won't be able to get away with something they already get away with?
> Already they are losing in many way in price, i am often times finding things for lower prices than on amazon, largely because of their INSANE platform charges (i.e the 30% "fulfilled by amazon" surcharge)
Complaint unrelated to driverless trucks.
> Insurance and Local governments have alot more at stake, hell most local governments have huge amounts of revenue that come from parking and other road related fines that would disappear entirely with fully automated cars.
By most accounts self-driving cars are going to reduce insurance liability because they don't drive drunk or text and drive or get tired or angry or distracted. But also, insurance companies don't really care about claims when they're predictable except to the extent that the corresponding premiums are so high they discourage people from buying insurance, which is a high bar when car insurance is required by law.
And listing additional groups who have the incentive to throw shade on self-driving cars for underhanded political reasons rather than legitimate risks is just more to the point.
I've seen how software is developed. If we have automated systems doing the same thing, they will all make the same mistake. It will be astounding to see it happen, and disastrous.
The existing non-driverless cars are already full of software.
Yes, but it won't drive you into a wall.
About this: I have a relation who works for a relatively large upstream auto part supplier. I asked him somewhat jokingly about this fight club scene, and he immediately and unabashedly told me he'd been involved in a number of such conversations. In retrospect, I can't understand why I was at all surprised: how else would the conversations go in a corporation (whose sole or primary incentive is by default monetary)?
(To be clear, I'm not saying that I find this morally correct — I'm not sure how I feel about that aspect, honestly, except icky at the surface level. I more means that it seems retrospectively to me that, well, of course that's how it would go, given the incentive structure)
(To be clear, I'm not saying that I find this morally correct — I'm not sure how I feel about that aspect, honestly, except icky at the surface level. I more means that it seems retrospectively to me that, well, of course that's how it would go, given the incentive structure)
> how else would the conversations go in a corporation (whose sole or primary incentive is by default monetary)
This isn't really a corporate issue at all though. Given scarce resources (whether physical or human), we need to be able to allocate resources efficiently. A conversation along these lines happens in public health systems all the time: how much money should be spent on medical interventions? There, the concept of a QALY (Quality-adjusted life year) is used, and typically, a price limit is set per QALY. Then, only interventions below that threshold will be funded. The idea is that since the healthcare system has limited funds, it doesn't make sense to spend exorbitant amounts delivering marginal results for one patient.
Now, one could argue this is simply a monetary issue, and if we didn't use money to measure these things, the issue would go away. The thing is, even if money isn't an issue (somehow), scarcity is still something we need to deal with. Developing and administrating medical interventions takes human labour, and spending a disproportionate amount of person hours on small gains is still an issue.
This comment is probably a little rambling, but the TL;DR is that given scarce resources (whether that's money in a corporation, or chemists and doctors in a health system), doing calculations on human lives is necessary if we want to make sure we allocate resources effectively.
This isn't really a corporate issue at all though. Given scarce resources (whether physical or human), we need to be able to allocate resources efficiently. A conversation along these lines happens in public health systems all the time: how much money should be spent on medical interventions? There, the concept of a QALY (Quality-adjusted life year) is used, and typically, a price limit is set per QALY. Then, only interventions below that threshold will be funded. The idea is that since the healthcare system has limited funds, it doesn't make sense to spend exorbitant amounts delivering marginal results for one patient.
Now, one could argue this is simply a monetary issue, and if we didn't use money to measure these things, the issue would go away. The thing is, even if money isn't an issue (somehow), scarcity is still something we need to deal with. Developing and administrating medical interventions takes human labour, and spending a disproportionate amount of person hours on small gains is still an issue.
This comment is probably a little rambling, but the TL;DR is that given scarce resources (whether that's money in a corporation, or chemists and doctors in a health system), doing calculations on human lives is necessary if we want to make sure we allocate resources effectively.
Doesn’t take into account costs like bad publicity, effects on employee morale, etc
one of many great quotes from Fight Club.
Wage theft needs to be treated as theft. Jail.
It's easy to detect "time-shaving", what with everyone having a trackable cell phone today. If time at work exceeds time on the clock for multiple employees, that shows wage theft.
The Wage and Hour Division of the US Department of Labor should be able to demand triple damages for wage theft. 2/3 goes to the employee, and 1/3 goes to enforcement efforts.
This never happens in union shops, by the way.
It's easy to detect "time-shaving", what with everyone having a trackable cell phone today. If time at work exceeds time on the clock for multiple employees, that shows wage theft.
The Wage and Hour Division of the US Department of Labor should be able to demand triple damages for wage theft. 2/3 goes to the employee, and 1/3 goes to enforcement efforts.
This never happens in union shops, by the way.
Not "never", but when it does happen, they've got vastly more resources to hold their employer accountable. Moreover, if a single employee notices it happening, they can report it to their steward, and then word gets out to all employees to double-check their paychecks. Source: this happened to folks in a union I belonged to.
Should the reverse be treated the same way? That is, being on the clock but not working? I work a low wage job and have seen co-workers go to pretty extreme lengths to avoid having to actually work.
Time theft is estimated at $400 billion per year, much higher than unpaid wages.
Time theft is estimated at $400 billion per year, much higher than unpaid wages.
No, it should not. If an employer has an issue with the way an employee conducts themselves during working hours they can discuss it with the employee and take disciplinary action if needed. That discipline can include reduction in wages, withholding wage increases or bonuses or firing. Plenty of options for an employer to deal with the situation.
If an employer denies legal wages they are thieves and should be held accountable by law enforcement for theft, just like any mugger or burglar would.
If an employer denies legal wages they are thieves and should be held accountable by law enforcement for theft, just like any mugger or burglar would.
> I work a low wage job and have seen co-workers go to pretty extreme lengths to avoid having to actually work.
It's not as if employers don't have the means to remediate this.
If we cut down to it, there is a fundamental tension - the average employer wants maximum productivity for the least amount they can get away paying, and the average employee want the maximum possible income with the least amount of work. As a thought experiment, if your employer were to offer to reduce the length of your work-week while maintaining your current salary, what is the minimum number would you agree to? Zero is acceptable with no consequences.
It's not as if employers don't have the means to remediate this.
If we cut down to it, there is a fundamental tension - the average employer wants maximum productivity for the least amount they can get away paying, and the average employee want the maximum possible income with the least amount of work. As a thought experiment, if your employer were to offer to reduce the length of your work-week while maintaining your current salary, what is the minimum number would you agree to? Zero is acceptable with no consequences.
> Though Amazon's delivery drivers operate Amazon-emblazoned vans, wear Amazon uniforms, and are trained by Amazon employees, they are technically not employed directly by Amazon but by small contractors, known as "delivery service partners," that operate out of Amazon warehouses around the country.
After a certain point you have to call it a duck.
After a certain point you have to call it a duck.
Could I open an online business, not sell on Amazon, and contract my deliveries to these contractors?
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As much as it is a problem of Amazon and its algorithm. It also shows how dysfunctional is USA despite being richest nation. I believe that the fact that they find people to do this job at the price, is a fundamental problem.
I really want to see how the US being the richest is calculated.
Not that I doubt it, but simple metrics like GDP per capita have obvious problems.
For one, if two women instead of taking care of their own families take care of the others for pay, GDP has increased (and the government took money from both).
Those two families, however, just lost money (taxes on income) while having inferior care and losing 1-2 hours of care a day (travel time).
Maximizing GDP can be negative to well-being and it’s possible that untracked labor such as traditional wives in other countries could actually be a gain for their populace over a higher GDP nation.
I think how to measure wealth in real terms is difficult.
(This is all setting aside that Wall St is cooked book stew at this point and much of US wealth depends on that fabrication.)
Not that I doubt it, but simple metrics like GDP per capita have obvious problems.
For one, if two women instead of taking care of their own families take care of the others for pay, GDP has increased (and the government took money from both).
Those two families, however, just lost money (taxes on income) while having inferior care and losing 1-2 hours of care a day (travel time).
Maximizing GDP can be negative to well-being and it’s possible that untracked labor such as traditional wives in other countries could actually be a gain for their populace over a higher GDP nation.
I think how to measure wealth in real terms is difficult.
(This is all setting aside that Wall St is cooked book stew at this point and much of US wealth depends on that fabrication.)
>I really want to see how the US being the richest is calculated.
I don't think it's really a mystery. When people say this, they are referring to the fact that the US has the largest GDP (total, not per capita) in the world. Of course there are pros/cons to this measure. That said, while your hypothetical is true, I'm not sure it's realistic for all the reasons you said; it wouldn't make any sense for the parties involved.
I don't think it's really a mystery. When people say this, they are referring to the fact that the US has the largest GDP (total, not per capita) in the world. Of course there are pros/cons to this measure. That said, while your hypothetical is true, I'm not sure it's realistic for all the reasons you said; it wouldn't make any sense for the parties involved.
I didn’t know that — I knew it was a measure, but not necessarily that it’s the measure most people mean.
> I'm not sure it's realistic for all the reasons you said; it wouldn't make any sense for the parties involved.
I would argue that a major economic viewpoint is exactly this has happened — women entered the workforce to do jobs that replaced the role they traditionally did at home, which boosted GDP but crashed a bunch of untracked value.
I’ve had several economists explain that to me as the source of growing worker discontentment: they give more labor for less value delivered to them, but it makes the number bigger on the books. You say it doesn’t make sense for the parties involved, but that’s only true of the two families: the government gets extra tax revenue if the families make that exchange. People outside those families have an incentive to force them into that position because those people benefit from the families loss.
I think if you added a couple steps to my scenario (and some information fuzziness), you could see it happening in the real world.
I overly distilled the point to highlight the absurdity.
> I'm not sure it's realistic for all the reasons you said; it wouldn't make any sense for the parties involved.
I would argue that a major economic viewpoint is exactly this has happened — women entered the workforce to do jobs that replaced the role they traditionally did at home, which boosted GDP but crashed a bunch of untracked value.
I’ve had several economists explain that to me as the source of growing worker discontentment: they give more labor for less value delivered to them, but it makes the number bigger on the books. You say it doesn’t make sense for the parties involved, but that’s only true of the two families: the government gets extra tax revenue if the families make that exchange. People outside those families have an incentive to force them into that position because those people benefit from the families loss.
I think if you added a couple steps to my scenario (and some information fuzziness), you could see it happening in the real world.
I overly distilled the point to highlight the absurdity.
There's a lot wrong with the way GDP is measured. Economist Michael Hudson writes about this.
Nevertheless the US is a very wealthy country by any measure.
Nevertheless the US is a very wealthy country by any measure.
It's not some one-for-one trade where Mom A shows up at Family B's home for her shift as nanny, while Mom B does the reverse.
In reality Mom A is a nurse, and cares for 20+ people in a day, and Mom B is a school administrator, both provide more than one-day-of-mothering value per day worked, so it's actually in everyone best interest that they leave their kids at daycare, consuming 1/6th of a less-talented person's day, enabling their professional output. Even the daycare worker multiplies their output by watching multiple children.
In reality Mom A is a nurse, and cares for 20+ people in a day, and Mom B is a school administrator, both provide more than one-day-of-mothering value per day worked, so it's actually in everyone best interest that they leave their kids at daycare, consuming 1/6th of a less-talented person's day, enabling their professional output. Even the daycare worker multiplies their output by watching multiple children.
Right, I understand the theory.
What I’m saying is striping out “mom” work into “preschool”, “restaurant”, and “laundromat” leads to inefficiencies that don’t come back at scale — for most families. Rich families have always had maids, etc. precisely for the reasons you state: it makes economic sense.
We’re making that up in decreased quality: your family gets worse childcare, food, and laundry plus some extra lost time to transit in exchange for mom spending her day doing those things for other families. (Eg, McDonalds or Denny’s or preschool or a maid.)
The on-the-books increase from “nurse” and “school administrator” aren’t due to increased efficiency, but rather, due to off-the-books losses, like the value of homemakers.
What I’m saying is striping out “mom” work into “preschool”, “restaurant”, and “laundromat” leads to inefficiencies that don’t come back at scale — for most families. Rich families have always had maids, etc. precisely for the reasons you state: it makes economic sense.
We’re making that up in decreased quality: your family gets worse childcare, food, and laundry plus some extra lost time to transit in exchange for mom spending her day doing those things for other families. (Eg, McDonalds or Denny’s or preschool or a maid.)
The on-the-books increase from “nurse” and “school administrator” aren’t due to increased efficiency, but rather, due to off-the-books losses, like the value of homemakers.
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In the 1970's (before outsourcing and immigration became significant) tgere wasnt anyone in the country who would work in those conditions because there were so many better jobs and so few other workers.
Immigration improves job prospects because immigrants are customers. If you're making supply and demand arguments you need to consider both supply and demand not just supply.
And in the 70s I think the poor population (esp. the black one) was much poorer and possibly not employed at all.
And in the 70s I think the poor population (esp. the black one) was much poorer and possibly not employed at all.
Secondary effects are not bigger than primary effects as evidenced by the fact that your thoughts on relative wealth are completely the opposite of what the data show and by the fact that income inequality has greatly increased.
I had some doubts that this is Amazon's problem, but the fact that they drive vans with Amazon logo, wear Amazon uniforms and are trained by Amazon employees convinced me this is just a pathetic attempt by Amazon to hide these practices, push the risk and move the blame on contractor companies. This is as bad as it goes.
It's a bit more subtle where I live but rest assured, even the unmarked van, the yellow vest, it's pretty obvious even without the Amazon logo.
Well, at some point you cannot blame a store for the postal services abuse on their own workers, but in Amazon's case this is their service, not an completely independent external service. These are the 2 sides of the problem and this tells who is responsible.
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> Amazon does not tolerate violations of labor laws," Leah Seay, an Amazon spokesperson told Motherboard. "Where we find repeated violations, or an inability to correct labor violations, we terminate contracts with DSP program participants.
That is NOT a no-tolerance policy. They're literally saying they tolerate some violations so long as its not so bad. Amazon is responsible for this and I'm guessing it stems from a work culture that sees some abuse as inevitable or okay in small amounts. Its not okay. You can't violate worker rights just some of the time and think you're being responsible. This is well outside acceptable business norms in the US. The fact that the official spokesperson thought it was okay that to publicly admit they sweep violations under the rug so long as it doesn't become too bad speaks volumes to Amazon's toxic and amoral work culture.
That is NOT a no-tolerance policy. They're literally saying they tolerate some violations so long as its not so bad. Amazon is responsible for this and I'm guessing it stems from a work culture that sees some abuse as inevitable or okay in small amounts. Its not okay. You can't violate worker rights just some of the time and think you're being responsible. This is well outside acceptable business norms in the US. The fact that the official spokesperson thought it was okay that to publicly admit they sweep violations under the rug so long as it doesn't become too bad speaks volumes to Amazon's toxic and amoral work culture.
That's interesting because:
> What is the pay rate at Amazon?: $15 an hour is the Amazon minimum wage—although you can make more based on your location and the shift you choose.
Source: https://www.amazondelivers.jobs/faqs
> What is the pay rate at Amazon?: $15 an hour is the Amazon minimum wage—although you can make more based on your location and the shift you choose.
Source: https://www.amazondelivers.jobs/faqs
Throwaway because I have written some of the software behind this program.
The problem is that Amazon has set up a system where labor abuses are the only way to succeed, while keeping their hands clean.
Amazon hires Delivery Service Providers (DSPs) on contracts. These contracts are for a specific number of 'routes' on a given day. They have a handful of DSPs for each delivery station, and they even help people start DSP companies by giving them loans for vans, access to better deals, etc. But the DSP is an independent company that can operate however it wants to, on paper.
The DSPs then hire delivery drivers, each an independent contractor themselves typically. The drivers get a route of 200-ish packages and follow the step-by-step navigation Amazon's provided app tells them[0] to do. The drivers are supposed to work for up to 10 hours then bring back whatever is leftover.
Problem: Amazon rewards the DSPs that have the fewest missed deliveries, pay them more per route. The DSPs that get the most pay are the ones who have learned how to get their drivers to work longer without complaint, take no breaks, keep driving, keep delivering. The ones who abuse.
Amazon does not reward the abuses, they just reward the effects of the abuses. Amazon can say "We don't tolerate that", but they absolutely do. What they actually don't tolerate is DSPs whose drivers complain. Every DSP operator out there is telling their drivers: you keep your mouths shut or you're out.
This isn't an accidental design. The people in charge of this program are sociopaths. And Amazon's senior leadership has rewarded these sociopaths for building this very low-cost delivery system. There's a Leadership Principle called "Deliver Results", but there isn't one called "Be Ethical".
[0](And let's set aside the part about 'workers following step-by-step instructions Amazon gives them are somehow not actually employees', which is bullshit.)
The problem is that Amazon has set up a system where labor abuses are the only way to succeed, while keeping their hands clean.
Amazon hires Delivery Service Providers (DSPs) on contracts. These contracts are for a specific number of 'routes' on a given day. They have a handful of DSPs for each delivery station, and they even help people start DSP companies by giving them loans for vans, access to better deals, etc. But the DSP is an independent company that can operate however it wants to, on paper.
The DSPs then hire delivery drivers, each an independent contractor themselves typically. The drivers get a route of 200-ish packages and follow the step-by-step navigation Amazon's provided app tells them[0] to do. The drivers are supposed to work for up to 10 hours then bring back whatever is leftover.
Problem: Amazon rewards the DSPs that have the fewest missed deliveries, pay them more per route. The DSPs that get the most pay are the ones who have learned how to get their drivers to work longer without complaint, take no breaks, keep driving, keep delivering. The ones who abuse.
Amazon does not reward the abuses, they just reward the effects of the abuses. Amazon can say "We don't tolerate that", but they absolutely do. What they actually don't tolerate is DSPs whose drivers complain. Every DSP operator out there is telling their drivers: you keep your mouths shut or you're out.
This isn't an accidental design. The people in charge of this program are sociopaths. And Amazon's senior leadership has rewarded these sociopaths for building this very low-cost delivery system. There's a Leadership Principle called "Deliver Results", but there isn't one called "Be Ethical".
[0](And let's set aside the part about 'workers following step-by-step instructions Amazon gives them are somehow not actually employees', which is bullshit.)
Yup. I have no knowledge of Amazon specifically, but I've seen this pattern repeatedly in companies that use contractors:
"We don't tolerate any lawbreaking, but you need to fulfill these performance metrics (which can't be achieved except by lawbreaking)."
I'm of the opinion that, as a general practice, this needs to be addressed by legislation. I don't know what the specific workable solution looks like, but essentially: if a company contracts work out that any reasonable person could determine would require violating laws or regulations to accomplish, that the company is held directly legally responsible for those violations.
Whether it's delivery drivers speeding or illegally parking or not making minimum wage or whatever.
"We don't tolerate any lawbreaking, but you need to fulfill these performance metrics (which can't be achieved except by lawbreaking)."
I'm of the opinion that, as a general practice, this needs to be addressed by legislation. I don't know what the specific workable solution looks like, but essentially: if a company contracts work out that any reasonable person could determine would require violating laws or regulations to accomplish, that the company is held directly legally responsible for those violations.
Whether it's delivery drivers speeding or illegally parking or not making minimum wage or whatever.
I think part of the problem is that it’s hard to quantify what a reasonable person can do in an hour. My fellow cross-country running teammates and I could form a delivery company and jog to and from every house. Or I might figure out that it’s actually more effective to put two people in every truck and have one of them be sorting and dropping while the other one drives. The companies that make these kinds of innovations SHOULD be rewarded. It’s not immediately obvious how to sort those from the ones who push their employees to just work longer shifts.
It's definitely not easy, but it's what companies do all the time, and courts are pretty used to getting access to internal documents that model cost structures, as well as bringing in expert witnesses from the industry.
But basically, any company (like Amazon) does cost modeling of every step involved in a process long before they decide whether to hire employees to do it, or contract it out. In fact, that's precisely how they can determine how much they're willing to pay to contract something out.
So it's not really that hard for a court to demand that a company produce its modeling estimates, and then compare with the actual service provided, and show that the company either a) knew that corners would need to be cut illegally, or b) made negligent assumptions.
Remember, I'm not talking about mom and pop shops who are all sharing a single huge contractor like UPS or FedEx. I'm talking about huge companies like Amazon or Uber who use a large number of subcontractors. They have entire teams of people who model this stuff. They know exactly what they're doing.
But basically, any company (like Amazon) does cost modeling of every step involved in a process long before they decide whether to hire employees to do it, or contract it out. In fact, that's precisely how they can determine how much they're willing to pay to contract something out.
So it's not really that hard for a court to demand that a company produce its modeling estimates, and then compare with the actual service provided, and show that the company either a) knew that corners would need to be cut illegally, or b) made negligent assumptions.
Remember, I'm not talking about mom and pop shops who are all sharing a single huge contractor like UPS or FedEx. I'm talking about huge companies like Amazon or Uber who use a large number of subcontractors. They have entire teams of people who model this stuff. They know exactly what they're doing.
> The drivers get a route of 200-ish packages and follow the step-by-step navigation Amazon's provided app tells them[0] to do. The drivers are supposed to work for up to 10 hours then bring back whatever is leftover.
I've heard that FedEx Express's system will forcibly go blank for the 30 minute mandated lunch break. Can't scan any packages, etc. Seems like something software that tells you what to do (and demands input) could also do. Might need followup effort to avoid gaming by spending some of lunch driving to the next stop, but still allowing driving to a restaurant.
I've heard that FedEx Express's system will forcibly go blank for the 30 minute mandated lunch break. Can't scan any packages, etc. Seems like something software that tells you what to do (and demands input) could also do. Might need followup effort to avoid gaming by spending some of lunch driving to the next stop, but still allowing driving to a restaurant.
Enter software optimizing routes chaining together restaurant stops for that extra competitive edge.
At the end of the day, you've got to accept that just because you can write software to do $thing, doesn't mean you should. If you're going that far into the tails to innovate, there's probably something more fundamental you've missed.
At the end of the day, you've got to accept that just because you can write software to do $thing, doesn't mean you should. If you're going that far into the tails to innovate, there's probably something more fundamental you've missed.
I looked into participating in the DSP program when it was announced; it was obvious at the time that it was a "buy yourself a job" type of situation, where an individual DSP provider would require a lot of volume/trucks/routes/employees to even make a living for themselves. What you describe makes complete sense.
you should talk to a journalist
Thanks for sharing.
"And Amazon's senior leadership has rewarded these sociopaths"
I'm too small to make a dent, but rest assured, I am "rewarding" them back with my wallet. Never again shopping on Amazon. I simply can't justify saving a few £ knowing that the people delivering / manipulating what I buy are abused. I read quite frequently about the issue and unless we protest with our wallets this abuse will continue.
"And Amazon's senior leadership has rewarded these sociopaths"
I'm too small to make a dent, but rest assured, I am "rewarding" them back with my wallet. Never again shopping on Amazon. I simply can't justify saving a few £ knowing that the people delivering / manipulating what I buy are abused. I read quite frequently about the issue and unless we protest with our wallets this abuse will continue.
I saw myself buying more and more from EBAY.
It is not perfect but mostly shipping is done by postal service that is ok for me and As Amazon there is no guarantee about products being genuine then E-bay is as good or more than amazon.
It is not perfect but mostly shipping is done by postal service that is ok for me and As Amazon there is no guarantee about products being genuine then E-bay is as good or more than amazon.
The trouble with that is the eBay sellers that are listing directly off Amazon (with a mark up obviously) and essentially ordering the goods from Amazon as gifts.
They keep this quiet as it's cheaper to buy it yourself on Amazon directly. It's becoming harder and harder to avoid the de-facto monopoly that is Amazon on ethical grounds.
It turns out you can buy most things from nearby retail stores. Not everything, but I haven’t needed to buy something online that often this year except niche or small publisher items
I had the same thing in mind when I ordered a gift recently, thought I'd see how Newegg matches up. I got my package 2 days later, the whole order had Amazon shipping slips/boxes, delivered by Amazon.
Interesting here.
If I go to a market and look for the best quality for the best price, I suppose I'm encouraging sociopaths, too.
There may be some argument for the scale of Amazon needing to take a deeper look. But requiring that a buyer of a good or service must know how the sausage is made would break our system.
Instead, the vendors do need to be held accountable.
For the record, I think these tech monopolies are a bad thing as a whole for the overall market but not because they're trying find the best deals on goods and services. More because they monopolize, and set the rules for the largest marketplaces which only governments should do.
If I go to a market and look for the best quality for the best price, I suppose I'm encouraging sociopaths, too.
There may be some argument for the scale of Amazon needing to take a deeper look. But requiring that a buyer of a good or service must know how the sausage is made would break our system.
Instead, the vendors do need to be held accountable.
For the record, I think these tech monopolies are a bad thing as a whole for the overall market but not because they're trying find the best deals on goods and services. More because they monopolize, and set the rules for the largest marketplaces which only governments should do.
> requiring that a buyer of a good or service must know how the sausage is made would break our system
In that particular case Amazon knows what’s going on because they have engineered the system, buys services anyway.
For purchases of some illegally obtained goods U.S. Code §2315 is there since 1948, has not broken the system: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2315
In that particular case Amazon knows what’s going on because they have engineered the system, buys services anyway.
For purchases of some illegally obtained goods U.S. Code §2315 is there since 1948, has not broken the system: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2315
You are part of the problem
This feels a bit flippant. There's nothing inherent to the software managing the process that leads to the exploitation of these workers. It's the unattainable metrics being set by management/business that's causing the issue.
And heres a person that could act against exploitation and instead chooses to just follow orders.
If you're not part of the solution then what are you?
If you're not part of the solution then what are you?
They aren't being ordered to do anything though. The system that was built isn't the thing setting the targets, the users are. We wouldn't argue that the creators of email are responsible for any exploitation that email has enabled and I don't think it's reasonable to argue that a developer for a delivery routing system is responsible for the incentive structure set up around that system after it has been built.
That's a crap analogy and you know it. Email started as a federated, open system. This Amazon is closed, for profit.
Everyone there is part of the problem and excuses their behavior with bullshit like "I'm only working on a small percentage of the exploitation". Is everyone so bad a maths now you've forgotten that 10 tenths makes a one?
Everyone there is part of the problem and excuses their behavior with bullshit like "I'm only working on a small percentage of the exploitation". Is everyone so bad a maths now you've forgotten that 10 tenths makes a one?
That's definitely one world view, that people are responsible for how people use the things they create. Nothing wrong with it.
I'd hold a different world view, in which individuals who have good intentions shouldn't be blamed for their work getting bastardized or leveraged in unethical ways.
In this case, it seems totally reasonable that an engineer on this project would assume that their work would reward efficiency (which it does), and not be gamed to reward exploitation (which it apparently also does).
Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
I'd hold a different world view, in which individuals who have good intentions shouldn't be blamed for their work getting bastardized or leveraged in unethical ways.
In this case, it seems totally reasonable that an engineer on this project would assume that their work would reward efficiency (which it does), and not be gamed to reward exploitation (which it apparently also does).
Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
blaming the hammer manufacturer for $dastardlyConstruction.
put another way, is the person who built tipping into instacart a bad person? or is it the person who decided to calculate pay as (baseRate - incomingTips) = actualWage the bad person?
put another way, is the person who built tipping into instacart a bad person? or is it the person who decided to calculate pay as (baseRate - incomingTips) = actualWage the bad person?
It's possible for both. We know amazon mistreats low wage workers. Then high wage workers build more on those exploitive systems and say "oh, it wasn't me".
But, I also think folks who excuse this kind of thing are bad actors too.
Or like down thread, trying to shift the blame to "the users" who are intentionally misled by advertising and the known information-imbalance that makes exploitive-capitalism work.
But, I also think folks who excuse this kind of thing are bad actors too.
Or like down thread, trying to shift the blame to "the users" who are intentionally misled by advertising and the known information-imbalance that makes exploitive-capitalism work.
When I read a story like this about some huge company "getting sued" I have to laugh. Does anybody think that Amazon and their killer attack attorneys are scared of small time civil suits? Legislators won't do anything to harm Amazon and the odd minor fine is just part of the ongoing expense of running a monopoly.
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What holds true for software also holds true for companies: there is no problem that can’t be solved with indirection. You want to profit from illegal stuff but not be responsible? Let an intermediary do it for you.
If I buy a product extremely cheap, I also will be liable if it was a stolen product. Why is the same not true for Amazon?
If I buy a product extremely cheap, I also will be liable if it was a stolen product. Why is the same not true for Amazon?
What is different about a salaried setup (yearly rate) and a daily rate position? If we are willing to ban daily pay because of its clear potential to result in abusive situations where employees are over worked and under paid, then why are we willing to allow salaried positions? I would sure love remittance for all the overtime I’ve worked as a salaryman.
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Amazon needs to pay more for their use of public infrastructure. The amount of traffic from delivery vehicles has dramatically increased in the past 10 years, and the ludicrous performance targets that they set for their drivers encourages dangerous driving. Congestion and accidents are a predictable consequence.
I had to make a long distance move right after the DST change. I knew that the drivers on the road would be at higher risk of fatal accidents than at other times of the year, so I was extra cautious. I would speed up to pass the trucks which were serving out of their lane. One truck was consistently swerving and speeding past me after I had already passed, and they even road rage honked their horn at me one time. Guess which company's smile logo was plastered across the truck?
I know truck drivers in general are pressured to meet deadlines at the expense of sleep, but this driver seemed like they were more sleep deprived and stressed than the normal truck driver. They seriously need to treat their employees better, for the sake of public safety. And America needs to get rid of this contractor loophole. They're employees, even if Amazon likes to pretend that they aren't.
I know truck drivers in general are pressured to meet deadlines at the expense of sleep, but this driver seemed like they were more sleep deprived and stressed than the normal truck driver. They seriously need to treat their employees better, for the sake of public safety. And America needs to get rid of this contractor loophole. They're employees, even if Amazon likes to pretend that they aren't.
I think they actually reduce the traffic, a single van can deliver what 20 SUVs used to do for 20 families.
Those 20 families tended to keep a list and get a bunch of items at once. Now they get a daily dribble of packages - I've had three different Amazon deliveries in a day.
I'm not sure it reduces traffic as much as it initially seems.
I'm not sure it reduces traffic as much as it initially seems.
Yes, but if each of your neighbors is also getting a package each day, then the effect is still the same. Additionally, that fleet will eventually be electrified, much sooner than all of those family SUV’s will.
Everyone should pay for road usage and congestion. Variable rate tolling and license plate readers are the solution.
Or taxes. Common infrastructure surely is a gold use for them.
Vehicle taxes is like putting everyone on an all you can eat data plan.
Tolls are taxes.
Depends on where you on how "toll" is being used. In Texas, the "tolls" are most definitely not taxes. Taxes mean the government is the recepient of that money. In Texas, the toll roads are owned by private companies. When the gov't ran the tollways, the tolling was removed when enough money from tolls was raised to cover the cost of building the road. Now, they are privatized, and the toll will never be removed.
Do you have evidence (or even a reason to believe) that the costs are misrepresented such that the government allowed a higher ongoing toll than is appropriate?
Because otherwise ... yeah? Private toll roads can be a good solution.
Because otherwise ... yeah? Private toll roads can be a good solution.
Before they were private, once enough tolls were collected to offset the cost of construction, the tool booths were removed. Those roads are now free to drive, ex: I-30 through DFW. The current roads under NTTA will never be free to drive, ex: George Bush Turn Pike, N.Dallas Tollway, Sam Rayburn Tollway,etc
The fact that an unnecessary middleman is in the equation is evidence that the costs will be higher, since the middleman wouldn’t be interested otherwise.
That doesn't follow - I save money by hiring a plumber, who makes money from being hired.
The city simply made an analysis of the number of roads they'd build over the years and the cost of being a capable engineering organization versus the premium of getting existing experts to build it. They probably don't generate their own electricity either, for the same reasons.
The city simply made an analysis of the number of roads they'd build over the years and the cost of being a capable engineering organization versus the premium of getting existing experts to build it. They probably don't generate their own electricity either, for the same reasons.
Hiring contractors to build roads and having staff to do routine maintenance of roads is part of every city/state/federal government’s core competencies that I’ve ever lived in.
The only reason they sell it off is to make cash now for whatever political reason at the expense of future taxpayers.
The delivery of electricity is also handled by governments, or companies that are basically government since they have to run everything by governments first like price increases. Just like water lines and sewer lines. Electricity generation does not need to be government operated since it can come from multiple sources, but the delivery is just like roads since you can’t have multiple options to each destination.
The only reason they sell it off is to make cash now for whatever political reason at the expense of future taxpayers.
The delivery of electricity is also handled by governments, or companies that are basically government since they have to run everything by governments first like price increases. Just like water lines and sewer lines. Electricity generation does not need to be government operated since it can come from multiple sources, but the delivery is just like roads since you can’t have multiple options to each destination.
When you hire a contractor, you pay for the work done and that's it. The state has allowed NTTA to have a lifetime contract of earning tolls on the roads even past the cost of building those roads. The contractor does not keep sending you bills after the fees have been paid for effectively creating mailbox money for the contractor at your expense.
> When you hire a contractor, you pay for the work done and that's it
Generally, but I could plan to have that contractor back for each repair as long as they do a good job.
> The state has allowed NTTA to have a lifetime contract of earning tolls on the roads even past the cost of building those roads
Presumably they're responsible for maintaining the roads. We've simply decided to call them for repairs as long as they do a good job.
> The contractor does not keep sending you bills after the fees have been paid
If I defer up-front costs in trade for maintenance costs then they do. This is really handy some times.
Generally, but I could plan to have that contractor back for each repair as long as they do a good job.
> The state has allowed NTTA to have a lifetime contract of earning tolls on the roads even past the cost of building those roads
Presumably they're responsible for maintaining the roads. We've simply decided to call them for repairs as long as they do a good job.
> The contractor does not keep sending you bills after the fees have been paid
If I defer up-front costs in trade for maintenance costs then they do. This is really handy some times.
Tolls are fees.
depends on what dictionary you use. Merriam-Webster says it is a tax. macOS dictionary does not define toll as tax, but says it is a synonym.
A large part of that is included in the tax on oil, though.
License plate reader are needed because tax on gasoline isn't exactly fair. A hybrid/electric car uses the same amount of road as an ICE car, but pays far less tax. Variable rate tolling is beneficial because it encourages people to take alternatives during rush hour, preventing everyone from piling on (because the road is free) and causing gridlock.
Gasoline taxes should be far higher than they are to cover the negative externalities of fossil fuels.
Gasoline taxes are, like most other use taxes based on things everyone uses, extremely regressive.
In the US, it would probably be more accurately labeled a tiny part.
A look at first world countries whose use taxes completely cover road investments and maintenance shows that we're about $4-6/gallon shy of actually covering our costs.
A look at first world countries whose use taxes completely cover road investments and maintenance shows that we're about $4-6/gallon shy of actually covering our costs.
Sounds like Wage slavery :(
[deleted]
blfr(3)
Plausible deniability will work fine for Bezos until he's less popular than a republican president.
Is this indicative of demand for jobs below the minimum wage?
There's demand for murder-for-hire, too. So what?
So, with murder-for-hire, the contract stipulates that somebody gets murdered. In paying somebody $6/hour to deliver packages, the contract requires that people's package get delivered.
I think we can agree that the negative side-effects of the sub-minimum-wage-package-delivery arrangement are subtler.
I think we can agree that the negative side-effects of the sub-minimum-wage-package-delivery arrangement are subtler.
I met a guy just the other day selling cigarettes by a bus stop for half price, no tax. There's clearly demand for cigarettes at those prices, right? Does it matter that they were stolen from a small business a few blocks away?
The common theme here is that the enterprise is against the law, and "there's demand for that" is no excuse to break the law. The reason for the law is more "subtle" but theft is theft.
Of course, the dude selling cigarettes will probably be lucky to make $100 a day, but he's risking jail time. The folks stealing wages from delivery drivers are stealing way more than that, but they'll pay some fines and settle some lawsuits which almost certainly won't overwhelm their profits.
Or -- let's say it's more subtle. So what?
The common theme here is that the enterprise is against the law, and "there's demand for that" is no excuse to break the law. The reason for the law is more "subtle" but theft is theft.
Of course, the dude selling cigarettes will probably be lucky to make $100 a day, but he's risking jail time. The folks stealing wages from delivery drivers are stealing way more than that, but they'll pay some fines and settle some lawsuits which almost certainly won't overwhelm their profits.
Or -- let's say it's more subtle. So what?
I think that bringing up the fact that "there is demand" is not necessarily an argument that it's okay to break the law. I think it's the start of a proposal that the law should be changed. Whether or not we agree, that's the thing to address. Not "is breaking the law, in general, okay", which is silly.
I also think it's wrong to equate the proposal that minimum wage law should be changed because there is demand for jobs at a certain wage with the proposal that murder-for-hire should be allowed because there is demand for it. Minimum wage laws are barely 100 years old in the US, while laws against murder are as old as law itself.
I'd venture to say that you could describe punishments for murder to any civilization in history and they would at least understand why you would propose such a thing. Minimum wage law, not so much. If some newcomer to my 18th century town is willing to work on my farm for a season for nothing but room and board, and you tell me that that relationship is exploitative and should be illegal, I'd call you insane.
I think a better comparison we could make is the sale of heroin. That's another instance where two consenting adults enter into an agreement that is currently, but not historically, illegal. It's also an instance where many argue that the relationship is exploitative, despite being voluntary. The similarities with minimum wage law are, from my perspective, deeper and more resonant.
I also think it's wrong to equate the proposal that minimum wage law should be changed because there is demand for jobs at a certain wage with the proposal that murder-for-hire should be allowed because there is demand for it. Minimum wage laws are barely 100 years old in the US, while laws against murder are as old as law itself.
I'd venture to say that you could describe punishments for murder to any civilization in history and they would at least understand why you would propose such a thing. Minimum wage law, not so much. If some newcomer to my 18th century town is willing to work on my farm for a season for nothing but room and board, and you tell me that that relationship is exploitative and should be illegal, I'd call you insane.
I think a better comparison we could make is the sale of heroin. That's another instance where two consenting adults enter into an agreement that is currently, but not historically, illegal. It's also an instance where many argue that the relationship is exploitative, despite being voluntary. The similarities with minimum wage law are, from my perspective, deeper and more resonant.
I'm sorry, but I can't take your "18th century town" seriously, and neither would any judge. Familiarize yourself with modern case law. It's really not that difficult.
And (tongue in cheek, kinda) some might say that the age of laws against murder indicate that the industry is ripe for disruption...
And (tongue in cheek, kinda) some might say that the age of laws against murder indicate that the industry is ripe for disruption...
Yeah, it seems like we're just talking past each other. I am aware that paying people less than minimum wage is illegal, as I am sure was the original poster to whom you replied. However, pointing out that something is illegal is not the end of a discussion about that thing. If it were, laws would never change. The point of my 18th century town illustration was not to "convince a judge", it was to demonstrate how certain laws are less deeply ingrained in human society than murder laws. Less deeply ingrained laws get argued about, deeply ingrained laws generally do not. But nobody is arguing about whether they are laws, they are arguing about whether they should be laws.
Even after a law is passed, and upheld in court, it still needs to defend itself in the court of public opinion when it is questioned. If you are content with and confident in the status quo, then you don't have to participate in those discussions. But if it is important to you that minimum wage laws go away, you have every right to argue against it ("there is demand for lower-wage jobs", for example). And if it is important to you that minimum wage law continue to stand, and you believe they are under threat, then it may make sense to defend it by pointing out its merits (e.g. "competing, desperate people do not act rationally or in their collective best interests").
If somebody proposes: "There is demand for marijuana", think about how useless the comment "there is demand for murder" is. Yes, they are both illegal things. No, that does not mean it's useless to discuss whether they should remain illegal. Now, if you continue with "familiarize yourself with the case law, marijuana users go to prison because it's illegal", do you see how it continues to be useless to the discussion about the legality of marijuana use? The discussion is not about whether [marijuana use/sub-minimum-wage employment] is actually illegal.
Even after a law is passed, and upheld in court, it still needs to defend itself in the court of public opinion when it is questioned. If you are content with and confident in the status quo, then you don't have to participate in those discussions. But if it is important to you that minimum wage laws go away, you have every right to argue against it ("there is demand for lower-wage jobs", for example). And if it is important to you that minimum wage law continue to stand, and you believe they are under threat, then it may make sense to defend it by pointing out its merits (e.g. "competing, desperate people do not act rationally or in their collective best interests").
If somebody proposes: "There is demand for marijuana", think about how useless the comment "there is demand for murder" is. Yes, they are both illegal things. No, that does not mean it's useless to discuss whether they should remain illegal. Now, if you continue with "familiarize yourself with the case law, marijuana users go to prison because it's illegal", do you see how it continues to be useless to the discussion about the legality of marijuana use? The discussion is not about whether [marijuana use/sub-minimum-wage employment] is actually illegal.
I'm curious if people choose to do this because they can't get another minimum wage job or if they think they are making more than minimum wage but in fact aren't. Or that they could get a minimum wage job with set hours but they want the gig flexibility.
Reading no further than the title, Amazon wouldn't "keep getting sued" if the employees thought they were getting a fair bargain. The article goes into the details of their grievances.
I'll pay you 25 cents to solve all my problems. Just because demand is there doesn't mean it is either
A) practical B ) economical C) moral D) All of the above
Learning to differentiate between the lunacy of market signal theory from which reality is abstracted out of and the next big thing is a bit of a learned skill.
A) practical B ) economical C) moral D) All of the above
Learning to differentiate between the lunacy of market signal theory from which reality is abstracted out of and the next big thing is a bit of a learned skill.
I'm curious if people choose to do this because they can't get another minimum wage job or if they think they are making more than minimum wage but in fact aren't. Or that they could get a minimum wage job with set hours but they want the gig flexibility.
At some point you can't pass blame for repeated violations through contract vehicles. The general population are becoming aware of these practices. Amazon may not have directly committed the violation but they've created and shaped an environment ripe for rampantly abusive labor practices.
If Amazon is serious about fixing the problem and committed to good labor practices, stop contracting out services and take control of the issue. Set policies in place with teeth that remove managers and middle managers caught pushing such work conditions. Don't just leverage cheaper labor from labor abuse until it gets public attention and then terminate a contract set in place to pass blame and responsibility.
Are you really outsourcing labor or are you outsourcing the risks associated with abuses of labor needed to meet your demands?