Show HN: Floptimal – Preflop ranges reimagined(floptimal.com)
floptimal.com
Show HN: Floptimal – Preflop ranges reimagined
https://floptimal.com
54 comments
Hi there, thanks for the feedback. Totally agree with you on intro/demo videos, and we're planning to create those in the coming days/weeks.
The features behind a pay wall are the “reaction ranges” for all stack sizes other than 15bb. This is the ability to put in table action and see the resulting data/strategies. Generating that data is very time consuming, requires significant computing hardware, and we continually generate more of it in order to improve the quality of the existing data sets as well as to create more of it (eg more stack sizes). The primary value of our initial offering is rooted in this data, and poker players are willing to pay for it. Historically it’s been prohibitively expensive, though, and a big goal for us was to lower the barrier and make it more accessible.
Our actual moat, though, is the technology and design. The ease of entering and changing table action, how quickly we load the data visualized in all these different ways, the combined aesthetics + logic behind the color schemes… these are the kinds of things we’ve come to expect in consumer technology but hadn’t yet reached the realm of poker tech. We believe that these aspects of Floptimal are groundbreaking within poker.
The features behind a pay wall are the “reaction ranges” for all stack sizes other than 15bb. This is the ability to put in table action and see the resulting data/strategies. Generating that data is very time consuming, requires significant computing hardware, and we continually generate more of it in order to improve the quality of the existing data sets as well as to create more of it (eg more stack sizes). The primary value of our initial offering is rooted in this data, and poker players are willing to pay for it. Historically it’s been prohibitively expensive, though, and a big goal for us was to lower the barrier and make it more accessible.
Our actual moat, though, is the technology and design. The ease of entering and changing table action, how quickly we load the data visualized in all these different ways, the combined aesthetics + logic behind the color schemes… these are the kinds of things we’ve come to expect in consumer technology but hadn’t yet reached the realm of poker tech. We believe that these aspects of Floptimal are groundbreaking within poker.
maybe the moat is the market size.
Is there an API?
Floptimal dev here, thanks for your interest!
We created our app to make it easy and accessible for poker players who aren't necessarily as computer savvy as the average HN'er, so our focus has been on presentation and the quick ability to dig through the data by hand, as a study tool. If you're interested in the raw data there are tools such as PIO (https://www.piosolver.com/), monker (https://monkerware.com/), and Simple (https://simplepoker.com/en/Solutions/Simple_Preflop_Holdem) that give you all sorts of control and more data than you could hope for. But they do take a very long time to run and need some legit hardware to do it, which is why another common approach is to sell the data. (We use monker and some proprietary things to generate and validate our data.)
We created our app to make it easy and accessible for poker players who aren't necessarily as computer savvy as the average HN'er, so our focus has been on presentation and the quick ability to dig through the data by hand, as a study tool. If you're interested in the raw data there are tools such as PIO (https://www.piosolver.com/), monker (https://monkerware.com/), and Simple (https://simplepoker.com/en/Solutions/Simple_Preflop_Holdem) that give you all sorts of control and more data than you could hope for. But they do take a very long time to run and need some legit hardware to do it, which is why another common approach is to sell the data. (We use monker and some proprietary things to generate and validate our data.)
Is there a glossary? I know how to play poker roughly but I have no idea how to use this awesome website.
There isn't a glossary per se but we tried covering all the basics and terminology here: https://www.floptimal.com/help#poker-basics.
This looks really cool, but even as someone who has dabbled a bit in poker I have no idea what I am looking at.
Presumably, this is for people who are already advanced to get a little bit better? Otherwise, if you want to level up my poker game I would need a few lower rungs on the ladder.
Presumably, this is for people who are already advanced to get a little bit better? Otherwise, if you want to level up my poker game I would need a few lower rungs on the ladder.
This part of the help page will get you started, if you're at all interested: https://www.floptimal.com/help#poker-basics
This is sort of a modernized web-based PokerStove. It's useful when you are at the stage where you are deep analyzing past hands or perhaps deciding whether preflop shoves in tournaments were good.
But I think even as someone who has used PokerStove in the past, and has programmed some range evaluators, the UI is pretty intimidating for me.
But I think even as someone who has used PokerStove in the past, and has programmed some range evaluators, the UI is pretty intimidating for me.
It’s closer to a web version of pio solver.
Equity and range evaluators got a lot less useful because people figured how to make software that solves the full (simplified) game tree. This is a superior approach to anything other than all-in spots (which have game tree of one nodes.)
Most serious players these days primarily use software like pio and monker because the competition has gotten tougher and old equity calculators are like using a graphing calculator vs a
Equity and range evaluators got a lot less useful because people figured how to make software that solves the full (simplified) game tree. This is a superior approach to anything other than all-in spots (which have game tree of one nodes.)
Most serious players these days primarily use software like pio and monker because the competition has gotten tougher and old equity calculators are like using a graphing calculator vs a
Would you pay $30/month to level up your game? Because for me this site is premised on the fact that the people willing to pay that already know the basic strat needed to digest this site.
higher stakes players already paying thousands of dollars for software simpler than this.
Using this on the same computer with casino software will net you a ban and probably cost you any winnings.
This is a preflop decision tree, not disimilar to having a number of static pdfs open next to your table windows (which is very common). Online poker sites mainly ban usage of postflop intelligence / pre-saved solves
This is a lot easier to use than sites with similar content presented in images.
Not seeing a color legend on mobile but I can reason it out; might be a helpful addition for tournament players who are newer to these concepts.
(Explanation for peanut gallery: if you are playing tournament Texas hold’em poker and have relatively few chips, the game becomes simpler that at other stages of the tournament: you either wager all your chips immediately after given your first choice in the hand or fold your chips. The optimal play is far closer to a math problem than most poker situations; these charts help describe it concisely for people to mentally cache prior to play.
Not seeing a color legend on mobile but I can reason it out; might be a helpful addition for tournament players who are newer to these concepts.
(Explanation for peanut gallery: if you are playing tournament Texas hold’em poker and have relatively few chips, the game becomes simpler that at other stages of the tournament: you either wager all your chips immediately after given your first choice in the hand or fold your chips. The optimal play is far closer to a math problem than most poker situations; these charts help describe it concisely for people to mentally cache prior to play.
Hey, thanks for taking a look! We were also unhappy with the status quo even though the idea of game-theory-optimal poker sims has been around for a while. Glad you like it too :)
Mobile isn't something we've focused on too much, so the UI's a bit small, but you should see the legend below the action bar on the left. Let me know if it's somehow not showing up at all for you though.
Mobile isn't something we've focused on too much, so the UI's a bit small, but you should see the legend below the action bar on the left. Let me know if it's somehow not showing up at all for you though.
What opponent range does this assume? Does that not effect the playable hands?
Implicit in a range like this one is that you are facing 'maximally exploitative opponents'. Since the game is zero-sum, over enough games the expected value of such a strategy is 0. However, since that expected value is against a maximally exploitative opponent any deviations of the opponent's strategy lead to an increase in your expected value. This is the game theory approach (GTO).
On the other hand, you can try to tailor your strategy to be maximally exploitative of the other players at the table, but doing this can be hard since often it can take a large number of hands to gauge what kind of player somebody is. On the other hand, GTO strategies are naive in the sense that you don't need to know anything about your opponents to guarantee that you Breakeven.
On the other hand, you can try to tailor your strategy to be maximally exploitative of the other players at the table, but doing this can be hard since often it can take a large number of hands to gauge what kind of player somebody is. On the other hand, GTO strategies are naive in the sense that you don't need to know anything about your opponents to guarantee that you Breakeven.
The data was generated in a Nash equilibrium with the sim playing against itself. So the opponent ranges are the ranges you see in the app.
its probably nash equilibrium ranges. so you break even if your opponent plays the equilibrium and are ahead if your opponent deviates. however, if you know your opponents ranges then you are leaving money on the table by using a nash strategy.
also, it's a bit more complex because its not heads up so i don't think there is a proper equilibrium. but i've seen a lot of preflop ranges that for these small stacks that claim to be solved using computers. i guess with multiway they use a lot of abstractions to make the problem simpler.
also, it's a bit more complex because its not heads up so i don't think there is a proper equilibrium. but i've seen a lot of preflop ranges that for these small stacks that claim to be solved using computers. i guess with multiway they use a lot of abstractions to make the problem simpler.
I think a Poker app that doesn't start with a poker table as the primary driver of the UX is going to have a hard time getting traction with people who aren't already experts, and at that point you might as well just start off charging money.
Launching anything is extremely hard, congratulations! I hope this goes well for you, I do like the layout of information, even though (as others have already commented) I don't understand what many of the tables are meant to represent. Very clean, if inscrutable!
Launching anything is extremely hard, congratulations! I hope this goes well for you, I do like the layout of information, even though (as others have already commented) I don't understand what many of the tables are meant to represent. Very clean, if inscrutable!
Thanks for this feedback! We initially thought that experts would be our primary/target audience, but given the reception we're getting from novices, there's clearly value in providing better onboarding for them so that the initial view isn't so overwhelming (although luckily we've seen that even newbies can pick up the charts quickly with a little bit of explanation).
Just to share a little background: our initial designs were of a round poker table but ultimately ditched it for a couple key reasons. We ran into usability issues (eg, the re-raising scenarios were difficult to display clearly, and it took too long for users to read/absorb the summary of action), and the action input wasn't as streamlined (namely, it required far more mouse and eye movement darting around the circle).
It took many iterations to land on what we currently have — the vertical list from early position to late position that eliminates positions in the re-raise rounds — and it proved to be the most efficient for inputting, absorbing, and clearing table action. Ultimately we made this tradeoff to value power usage over first time usage, but we hope to continue improving it and making it easier for first time users as well.
Just to share a little background: our initial designs were of a round poker table but ultimately ditched it for a couple key reasons. We ran into usability issues (eg, the re-raising scenarios were difficult to display clearly, and it took too long for users to read/absorb the summary of action), and the action input wasn't as streamlined (namely, it required far more mouse and eye movement darting around the circle).
It took many iterations to land on what we currently have — the vertical list from early position to late position that eliminates positions in the re-raise rounds — and it proved to be the most efficient for inputting, absorbing, and clearing table action. Ultimately we made this tradeoff to value power usage over first time usage, but we hope to continue improving it and making it easier for first time users as well.
I think the interface is appropriate as a learning tool for intermediate+ players, who will know right away exactly what they are looking at. Anyone who has used poker educational software should be right at home with your interface. Don't change it!
I expect a round poker table if the software actually plays poker or if it's some kind of hand-commentary replayer. Not for things like this.
I expect a round poker table if the software actually plays poker or if it's some kind of hand-commentary replayer. Not for things like this.
Oh, it's you and a team? Awesome, sounds like a fun project to work on. If you've examined it and saw it not working well, that's totally fair. I thought you were doing this solo, but given the level of polish I probably should have known better. :)
Good luck!
Good luck!
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Pretty cool, UX a little cumbersome but great start. Feature request: 3max / 4max and 6max cash ranges (100bb / 200bb+)
Thank you for offering a cookie notice whose one-click options are 'only required cookies' and 'all cookies'.
Too many websites offer 'all cookies' and 'dig into this menu to turn off the cookies you don't want'. Obviously the latter is a huge pain, and the goal is to get people to just accept all cookies.
Too many websites offer 'all cookies' and 'dig into this menu to turn off the cookies you don't want'. Obviously the latter is a huge pain, and the goal is to get people to just accept all cookies.
No cookie notice is the best UI of all.
Agreed, but, it seems that even sites that don't use tracking cookies are starting to present at least a button that links you to their privacy policy that says they don't use any. I wish they'd just not show anything.
Love the UI. Started using it and everything just clicked.
How good is poker AI these days?
Can the best players still be profitable against computers?
Can the best players still be profitable against computers?
Heads Up (two player) Limit (the raise size is fixed, raising is a binary decision) Hold 'Em is weakly solved. A mathematically determined strategy is arbitrarily close to optimal. There are likely other equally optimal strategies, but there can't be any which would actually win over time. http://poker.srv.ualberta.ca/about
Heads Up No limit is not solved, but machines are so good at it now that the world's top humans lost money to a machine when this was last attempted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluribus_(poker_bot)
In multi-seat games, like the ones Floptimal is designed for, an AI has the problem that rationally the humans should all work together to knock it out, simply because it's obviously stronger than they are. The humans needn't cheat, they just choose to take a different line against the bot than they'd take against other humans, so that the bot accumulates money much more slowly than the dominant human player.
Heads Up No limit is not solved, but machines are so good at it now that the world's top humans lost money to a machine when this was last attempted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluribus_(poker_bot)
In multi-seat games, like the ones Floptimal is designed for, an AI has the problem that rationally the humans should all work together to knock it out, simply because it's obviously stronger than they are. The humans needn't cheat, they just choose to take a different line against the bot than they'd take against other humans, so that the bot accumulates money much more slowly than the dominant human player.
Given the success of AlphaGo, and Pluribus’ ability to dominate humans 1-on-1, I’d be surprised if Pluribus couldn’t eventually be generalized to ring games. I’d also be surprised if today’s batch of online poker bots weren’t actively informed by ML or AI. Nor am I confident poker can be played in a fully online setting in a way that is impervious to cheating with bots.
Perhaps augmented reality experiences could help professionals play more hands of live poker, balancing volume with integrity of the games.
Perhaps augmented reality experiences could help professionals play more hands of live poker, balancing volume with integrity of the games.
All I get is a blank screen, on account of the page being apparently constructed entirely of third-party scripts.
Nice app. Few questions / comments as someone who dabbles quite a bit w/ GTO play.
What's the nash distance here? Can I assume you are tight enough these results should be the same as piosolver etc?
Any thoughts on supporting cash games (w/ various rake levels, 6max or 9max) or deeper stacks?
Thoughts on lifetime subscriptions?
This is a solid competitor to piosolver etc
What's the nash distance here? Can I assume you are tight enough these results should be the same as piosolver etc?
Any thoughts on supporting cash games (w/ various rake levels, 6max or 9max) or deeper stacks?
Thoughts on lifetime subscriptions?
This is a solid competitor to piosolver etc
I don't know about poker but I want to highlight your cookies popup!
The accept only required cookies is refreshing in this web full of dark pattern. Even tought it's not the default choice, the button is bigger than the accept all cookies button and it doesn't leads to a jungle of toggles.
Thanks for respecting us !
The accept only required cookies is refreshing in this web full of dark pattern. Even tought it's not the default choice, the button is bigger than the accept all cookies button and it doesn't leads to a jungle of toggles.
Thanks for respecting us !
Second this.
It's bad enough when every site makes you go through and pick exactly which invasive cookies you don't want, but I'd like to call out Stack Overflow/Stack Exchange as a particularly bad offender here. They present the dialog each and every time you visit one of their sites. It's beyond annoying, and, were it easily possible without sacrificing my ability to decline their cookies, I'd block that dialog element entirely. Maybe this is a good job for a browser extension?
It's bad enough when every site makes you go through and pick exactly which invasive cookies you don't want, but I'd like to call out Stack Overflow/Stack Exchange as a particularly bad offender here. They present the dialog each and every time you visit one of their sites. It's beyond annoying, and, were it easily possible without sacrificing my ability to decline their cookies, I'd block that dialog element entirely. Maybe this is a good job for a browser extension?
This is great, and I would ignore the people who complain about the UX being too difficult. The most profitable customer is people buying in frequently to online tournaments, for whom this all makes complete sense. The regular casual low-mid stakes customers spend hundreds of dollars per day or at least week on buy-ins easily, and you're gonna get a tonne of em to be comfortable paying $30/month.
I've played online tournaments for a month or two and can tell exactly what this is saying. So it's not exactly high level.
Where did you get the data for this?
I've played online tournaments for a month or two and can tell exactly what this is saying. So it's not exactly high level.
Where did you get the data for this?
I would agree that people who understand the UX at first glance are part of the target market.
However, there are a lot of people (like me) who could be educated a little bit and would then be happy to use/pay for a tool like this. I wouldn't ignore these folks because they could increase the market size by 2-3x.
However, there are a lot of people (like me) who could be educated a little bit and would then be happy to use/pay for a tool like this. I wouldn't ignore these folks because they could increase the market size by 2-3x.
Por que no los dos? We want it to be great for you, too. Not sure if you saw, but we've written up this guide to help ease newer/more casual players in: https://www.floptimal.com/help#poker-basics
¡Sí, por supuesto! When I first visited the site today via HN, it took me to a page that had lots of diagrams that would be intimidating to newbies.
It looks like the first page is now a landing page that helps get people properly onboarded, which is great.
It looks like the first page is now a landing page that helps get people properly onboarded, which is great.
We primarily generate the data using Monker Solver, using our own custom trees.
This is really cool. Well done. Is there a link to the research or the data source? I imagine this is a 'standard' of some sorts.
Also will you implement the other sub-games such as short stacks and other games? It would be very valuable to explore the differences.
Also will you implement the other sub-games such as short stacks and other games? It would be very valuable to explore the differences.
Seems like a nice app, but has not even begun to demonstrate enough value for me to upgrade to “premium”. The whole page is pretty focused on getting enough engagement to provoke an upgrade.
Has anyone found a good open-source preflop trainer?
I was wondering about the enthusiastic upvoting from HN crowd only to read comments and most of them are like "I don't know about poker but.." haha :) Nice one though.
i love the UI! Definitely feels like a breath of fresh air in poker software.
do you plan to add the feature that actually allows to memorize preflop ranges by training various situations? Something like preflophero?
You could start off with the basic "if you're dealt these cards, should you hold/fold?" and then layer on additional complexity in terms of stack size, position, etc. That would make it less intimidating/multivariate.
Can you explain what features you are keeping behind a paywall and why? This looks like something that could really help a lot of people, that would not have high ongoing costs, and that therefore could make a great business.
Only question — what is your moat? Not to say you can't succeed without a moat from day one, but it changes the calculus on growth/revenue (in favor of growing faster to capture the market, and then iterating on revenue later once you're the main player).