Tech workers swore off the Bay Area, now they’re coming back(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
Tech workers swore off the Bay Area, now they’re coming back
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/15/technology/tech-workers-bay-area-back.html
153 comments
Are those things new? IRC has been around 25+ years at least
Might as well ask why would any tech entrepreneur ever have moved to SF?
Therein would lie the answer
Might as well ask why would any tech entrepreneur ever have moved to SF?
Therein would lie the answer
It is a major tech center. Probably easier to get VC money, make serendipitous connections, maybe hire talent. (Though, arguably, the advantages are less than they used to be and the disadvantages greater.)
And not weather directly but there are a fair number of tech people who, to the hiring point, have trouble imaging living other places because of some combination of weather and culture (and choice of jobs without having to maybe move to a different city in another state).
And not weather directly but there are a fair number of tech people who, to the hiring point, have trouble imaging living other places because of some combination of weather and culture (and choice of jobs without having to maybe move to a different city in another state).
> maybe hire talent
Are most of the bay area developers bay area natives? I was under the impression they were mostly immigrants under H1B contracts that could live anywhere in the US.
Are most of the bay area developers bay area natives? I was under the impression they were mostly immigrants under H1B contracts that could live anywhere in the US.
A non trivial amount of strong immigrant engineers are in SV. Ask me how hard it is to hire hundreds of engineers without faang funding in a tier 2 city.
Strong immigrant engineers that came in the 1990s now have adult children that in the workforce. A personal anecdote, it was indeed a bit surprising to hear my coworker at a startup mention that his mother joined a startup.
I’ve worked at startups where a third of the workforce share the same Bay Area high school alma matter. The scale of the ecosystem is without compare.
Decades of self-sorting have occurred
I doubt if they are mostly H1B immigrants but, yes, they could mostly work anywhere in the US. But many went to school in CA and decided to stay there or, to my other point, they like living in CA for whatever reason.
I don't and never have lived in CA but I've spent a lot of time there and I do see the attraction other than CoL and some other downsides. And there are certainly areas of the US that for me would heavily weigh against any employment opportunity offered there. (Though I'm full remote at this point anyway.)
I don't and never have lived in CA but I've spent a lot of time there and I do see the attraction other than CoL and some other downsides. And there are certainly areas of the US that for me would heavily weigh against any employment opportunity offered there. (Though I'm full remote at this point anyway.)
You may not be in one job forever, and you can move between about 10,000 tech companies through a long career if you are in the Bay.
Network effect, online isn't the same.
I recently founded an early stage startup. The only reason I can proffer is imposter syndrome.
There’s a certain nagging feeling that we’ll never be a “real startup” until we have offices in the Bay Area. And sometimes that views externalized by others. You run into a scenario where you’re talking to someone who’s excited about your tech and vision. Then you mention you’re located in suburban Florida and their enthusiasm just drops out of the floor.
There’s a certain nagging feeling that we’ll never be a “real startup” until we have offices in the Bay Area. And sometimes that views externalized by others. You run into a scenario where you’re talking to someone who’s excited about your tech and vision. Then you mention you’re located in suburban Florida and their enthusiasm just drops out of the floor.
I was in Miami early this year. Every one of the local coworking spaces were booked full with people working on tech and there were no COVID restrictions. The things I loved about SF seemed to be happening in Miami, lots of diverse cultures, food, bars, and people socializing. I visited SF a few weeks ago and it felt like the energy was gone. The Financial District was dead, as if it was still March 2020.
Rest comfortably knowing that those people who require you to be in a major city don't know what they're talking about.
Florida, though, jesus...
Florida, though, jesus...
Because VCs have nice villas there and they expect you to be driving distance from them.
How many enormous technology companies have been founded by people affiliated with a certain school in Palo Alto which has no plans of going remote?
At least 11 of the 20 largest companies by market cap have a major office if not headquarters in the region. It's a business and money center... And that's besides great weather, history, and things to do in CA.
I couldn't imagine an entrepreneur being successful without meeting people in person.
I couldn't imagine an entrepreneur being successful without meeting people in person.
On the last part, I agree - but I think the initial meeting can still happen online. You can always coordinate to meet in-person later.
You can hire developers/engineers anywhere but it's hard(er) to find leadership and/or VC connections elsewhere.
I moved from the Bay to Raleigh, NC. If I wanted to start a B2B AI SaaS company here, I could (probably) find dozens of good engineers locally to help me do that. If I want to hire a VPE who's "been there done that" and scaled a B2B SaaS engineering org to 200+ engineers, or 1,000+ customers, or $30M+ revenue... my options are going to be significantly more limited here than SF/SV.
I moved from the Bay to Raleigh, NC. If I wanted to start a B2B AI SaaS company here, I could (probably) find dozens of good engineers locally to help me do that. If I want to hire a VPE who's "been there done that" and scaled a B2B SaaS engineering org to 200+ engineers, or 1,000+ customers, or $30M+ revenue... my options are going to be significantly more limited here than SF/SV.
The bay during the 2010s was a very special time and place. Hard to understand if you weren't there. I've never felt a sense of community and energy and excitement like that anywhere else. Not to mention all the free pizza and beer. If COVID is over and that world comes back, I'd love to return. But right now there doesn't seem to be much point.
> It seems like a lifetime, or at least a Main Era — the kind of peak that never comes again. San Francisco in the middle sixties was a very special time and place to be a part of. Maybe it meant something. Maybe not, in the long run... but no explanation, no mix of words or music or memories can touch that sense of knowing that you were there and alive in that corner of time and the world. Whatever it meant...
> Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, 1971
I'm pretty sure people have been saying this about the Bay Area since the Gold Rush.
> Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, 1971
I'm pretty sure people have been saying this about the Bay Area since the Gold Rush.
Isn't "very special time and place for community, energy and excitement" a function of your age, more than anything else?
Everybody experiences their special unique unrepeatable time and place. It doesn't matter which decade they lived, or where. For me, it was the early 90s in post-communist Czechoslovakia. Also, "hard to understand if you weren't there".
Free pizza and beer might not hold the same sway they did 10 years ago. You cannot step into the same river twice, etc.
Everybody experiences their special unique unrepeatable time and place. It doesn't matter which decade they lived, or where. For me, it was the early 90s in post-communist Czechoslovakia. Also, "hard to understand if you weren't there".
Free pizza and beer might not hold the same sway they did 10 years ago. You cannot step into the same river twice, etc.
The internet exploded post financial crash.
The iphone invented a whole new platform for ideas.
The economy moved substantially online during this time.
It was a transformative moment in technology being driven out of silicon valley / sf.
The iphone invented a whole new platform for ideas.
The economy moved substantially online during this time.
It was a transformative moment in technology being driven out of silicon valley / sf.
I think that's true although I also think that the past decade has been a pretty good time to be in tech broadly. I'm not sure it's really specific to the Bay Area/SF although it may be more obvious there because of how concentrated it is. (And, as you say, an outsized amount of the most visible tech came out of (I'd say) the West Coast.
[deleted]
Most of these articles were written from a certain perspective for a certain demographic. I have friends with kids, who are minorities, who have decent/good paying jobs and they never entertained the idea for a second of moving from the Bay Area.
We chatted weighing the good and bad of going full remote and moving to a less expensive city. Racism in SF or LA is bad, but it's a known quantity. Being a minority and having to deal with racism in Boise, Idaho, for example, was something they didn't feel comfortable with.
Also, as a Miami native who's been to some of the meetups and gatherings (we never really shut down) it's been interesting. So far I've seen more of the finance and marketing side of tech companies than the tech side. I've been meeting with different startups to learn more of their tech stack and to see if they're recruiting and rarely has the architect been there. I'm not sure how that bodes for Miami being a tech incubator if the SWEs are so hard to find.
We chatted weighing the good and bad of going full remote and moving to a less expensive city. Racism in SF or LA is bad, but it's a known quantity. Being a minority and having to deal with racism in Boise, Idaho, for example, was something they didn't feel comfortable with.
Also, as a Miami native who's been to some of the meetups and gatherings (we never really shut down) it's been interesting. So far I've seen more of the finance and marketing side of tech companies than the tech side. I've been meeting with different startups to learn more of their tech stack and to see if they're recruiting and rarely has the architect been there. I'm not sure how that bodes for Miami being a tech incubator if the SWEs are so hard to find.
What is it suddenly with all this talk about racism?
> Racism in SF or LA is bad...
> ...having to deal with racism in Boise, Idaho, for example, was something they didn't feel comfortable with...
Who are those racists and in what way do they express their racism?
I'm a European who has been on your side of the Atlantic and Pacific quite often for work- and leisure-related purposes over a period of several decades. If I can believe the current narrative things have been going from bad to worse to black people walk the streets in fear of their lives from racist cops in the last few years. This did not use to be the case, America was the "melting pot" or "salad bowl" or whatever metaphor you want to use where people divided by country of origin, religion, personal story and - yes - skin colour all came together under the stars and stripes to celebrate their country on the 4th of July. Now that same flag is being called a racist symbol by leading politicians, the 4th of July supposedly celebrates independence for only part of the population and more of such nonsensical inflammatory political rhetoric.
Either everyone has been blind for decades or the current narrative about racism is a lie meant to achieve some political purpose. I do not believe the former to be true so the latter seems to be the answer but that makes me wonder why the parent poster brought up the bad racism in SF and LA and the racism in Boise, Idaho.
Maybe I should point out that I use the traditional definition of the word racism as can be found in printed copies of dictionaries and encyclopedias from a few years ago. Is that the change which made it possible to claim racism is everywhere and if so, why do people use the new definition of the word?
> Racism in SF or LA is bad...
> ...having to deal with racism in Boise, Idaho, for example, was something they didn't feel comfortable with...
Who are those racists and in what way do they express their racism?
I'm a European who has been on your side of the Atlantic and Pacific quite often for work- and leisure-related purposes over a period of several decades. If I can believe the current narrative things have been going from bad to worse to black people walk the streets in fear of their lives from racist cops in the last few years. This did not use to be the case, America was the "melting pot" or "salad bowl" or whatever metaphor you want to use where people divided by country of origin, religion, personal story and - yes - skin colour all came together under the stars and stripes to celebrate their country on the 4th of July. Now that same flag is being called a racist symbol by leading politicians, the 4th of July supposedly celebrates independence for only part of the population and more of such nonsensical inflammatory political rhetoric.
Either everyone has been blind for decades or the current narrative about racism is a lie meant to achieve some political purpose. I do not believe the former to be true so the latter seems to be the answer but that makes me wonder why the parent poster brought up the bad racism in SF and LA and the racism in Boise, Idaho.
Maybe I should point out that I use the traditional definition of the word racism as can be found in printed copies of dictionaries and encyclopedias from a few years ago. Is that the change which made it possible to claim racism is everywhere and if so, why do people use the new definition of the word?
As a latino, I can tell you what type of racism I have faced in the east coast, for example:
- While chatting on the phone with a friend in Spanish, I get people screaming at me: "Speak English! This is America, go back to your country!!. ......"
- "Chinga tu madre!! Mexican!" (I'm not Mexican)
- "We dont speak Spanish here, sorry..." even tho I can communicate perfectly well in English.
and many more, in my personal experience, the west coast is way better regarding racism, I have Pakistani friends who have had a pretty rough time living in Oklahoma.
I agree that racism is being using as a political weapon, and all of that, but is truly more common in some places.
If you are a white European, you will have a hard time seeing racism, compared with people who are not white.
I find it strange the phrase "political weapon". As if the idea that there might be an issue in the country and politicians wanting to do something about it makes it a weapon. "Oh no Mr. Smith, your not allowed to mention the things that are wrong, otherwise people might think your using it to point out the flaws in your opposition."
I think "political tool" is a better term, and I believe it's an incredibly effective tool for dividing people who might otherwise be united on certain issues.
I think that after the 2008 financial crisis and the following bailouts for the people who caused it, a lot of people got fed up, and occupy wall street was born. Occupy was a class based movement: the ultra-rich vs everyone else. And then something happened, and suddenly everyone had to be divided by every other attribute imaginable - race, sex, gender, disability - class just wasn't as important. Instead of the 1% vs the 99%, the 99% was divided by all those attributes and fought each other over whose issues were more important. Then it quietly fizzled out and nothing was accomplished.
The 1% must be so happy watching the 99% squabble amongst themselves over who's the most oppressed. I think that most, if not all, of the major political/social issues today should be viewed through a class-based lens _first_; everything else should come second. But the users of this tool cannot have that, and here we are: everything is about race/sex/gender and nothing is about class.
I think that after the 2008 financial crisis and the following bailouts for the people who caused it, a lot of people got fed up, and occupy wall street was born. Occupy was a class based movement: the ultra-rich vs everyone else. And then something happened, and suddenly everyone had to be divided by every other attribute imaginable - race, sex, gender, disability - class just wasn't as important. Instead of the 1% vs the 99%, the 99% was divided by all those attributes and fought each other over whose issues were more important. Then it quietly fizzled out and nothing was accomplished.
The 1% must be so happy watching the 99% squabble amongst themselves over who's the most oppressed. I think that most, if not all, of the major political/social issues today should be viewed through a class-based lens _first_; everything else should come second. But the users of this tool cannot have that, and here we are: everything is about race/sex/gender and nothing is about class.
My guess is that the Occupy movement was one of the first things that got you into politics, otherwise I don't know how else to explain your opinion. Identity politics was around way before the Occupy movement and has been one of the greatest driving forces in progressive social change.
Yeah, but colbapar has a bit of a point: Identity was there, but it wasn't quite so all-consuming of an issue. But I think the timing is a bit off. I think Occupy had pretty much fizzled before identity exploded. I could be wrong - I'm not all that political, so I'm only a fringe observer of these things - but it seems to me that Occupy was pretty much over by 2013, and identity didn't really explode until 2016 or so.
Is that racism? In that case I have been subjected to it many times even in my country of birth (the Netherlands) by speaking ABN ('algemeen beschaafd Nederlands', meaning not a local dialect but the type of Dutch spoken by the king or queen) in a place like Limburg (the southern-most province) where they tell me 'Ich spreck niet met hollanders!" (literally "I do not speak with people from the province of Holland" where "Holland" is meant to be understood as "not from the southern provinces") in an angry voice. I can understand the Limburg dialect since I speak German as well as Dutch and Limburgs lies somewhere in between (depending on which local variety, sometimes it seems more German than Dutch). This is only within a single tiny country, if I set my foot outside of it and make the mistake of starting to speak English in France I'd often only be met with feigned misunderstanding or foul looks by people who understand me perfectly well but consider their language an integral part of their identity and as such feel that others should make the effort to use it when communicating with Frenchmen. Were I to start in halting French we'd often end up speaking halting English without any bad feelings. Is that racism? No, it is not. It it a form of chauvinism, a way to mark people as not being part of their group. It is not racism since they do not react to my "race" (skin colour, facial features and whatever else is linked to "race") but to the way I speak. I could have spoken Limbursch or French and avoided their reaction. I can not change my race while I can change the way I speak if I so desire.
> If you are a white European, you will have a hard time seeing racism, compared with people who are not white.
That is a racist statement in and of itself, and you do not even know whether I'm a "white" European, let alone the fact that "white" means just as much as "black" when it comes to indicating the culture people grew up and live in. Since I can only assume you are not a racist I assume you made that statement because it is part of the current narrative - it is called standpoint epistemology [1], part of critical theory - without really giving it some thought.
If you agree that racism is used as a political weapon it is only prudent to make sure you do not unwittingly make yourself become a part of that weapon.
Yes, people tend to react differently to people depending on whether they are from their own group or from the outside, up to and including to telling them to "go back where they came from". This is said to Polish migrant workers in western Europe, to Palestinian migrants in Syria, to Koreans in Japan - in all cases you'll be hard-pressed to find any "racial" differences between the groups. It is chauvinism, nationalism, protectionism or just fear of being overrun by "the other". It is not racism and should not be called such, specifically for the reason you yourself mentioned: racism is being used as a political weapon.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standpoint_theory
> If you are a white European, you will have a hard time seeing racism, compared with people who are not white.
That is a racist statement in and of itself, and you do not even know whether I'm a "white" European, let alone the fact that "white" means just as much as "black" when it comes to indicating the culture people grew up and live in. Since I can only assume you are not a racist I assume you made that statement because it is part of the current narrative - it is called standpoint epistemology [1], part of critical theory - without really giving it some thought.
If you agree that racism is used as a political weapon it is only prudent to make sure you do not unwittingly make yourself become a part of that weapon.
Yes, people tend to react differently to people depending on whether they are from their own group or from the outside, up to and including to telling them to "go back where they came from". This is said to Polish migrant workers in western Europe, to Palestinian migrants in Syria, to Koreans in Japan - in all cases you'll be hard-pressed to find any "racial" differences between the groups. It is chauvinism, nationalism, protectionism or just fear of being overrun by "the other". It is not racism and should not be called such, specifically for the reason you yourself mentioned: racism is being used as a political weapon.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standpoint_theory
I lived in Limburg for a few years near Sittard. My daughter was even born there. I noticed her Dutch birth certificate doesn’t include race like US birth certificates. Kinda tells me race and Whiteness is a US construct.
Racism doesn't need the validity of a birth certificate to exist. My birth certificate doesn't list if I'm gay, straight, or bi. Doesn't mean the LGBTQ community isn't discriminated, attacked, and sometimes killed for simply existing.
The Dutch knowing nothing of racism is super fucking rich. Read your own history books.
The Dutch knowing nothing of racism is super fucking rich. Read your own history books.
Didn’t say the Dutch weren’t racist. Never understood the Zwarte Piet nonsense. Putting race on US Birth Certificates was a systemic racism before Jim Crow and still exists.
I didnt say you were a "white" european, I said: "IF you are....", there is nothing racist on what I said. You are using a common pattern the far right uses here in the US, ala Carlson Tucker "What is white supremacy anyway?". I agree there is racism everywhere , between all races, religions, etc... But , we were talking about the US, and the differences between regions regarding racism, etc. I was also exposing my personal experience. Also , the argument of "there is no such a thing as racism" is itself racist, regardless where you are from and how you look. Disregarding other peoples unnecessary hardship and the problems they have to deal with, just because they look different or come from a different place, is truly immoral.
I mean a decade ago we didn’t have social media that allowed minorities to say and record their experiences. Makes sense to me that once minorities don’t have to work around a gatekeeper like MSM that suddenly everyone realizes what a shitshow it is. There were countless George Floyds before George Floyd but only now we have people with cameras to capture it and put it somewhere for everyone to see.
>only now we have people with cameras to capture it and put it somewhere for everyone to see.
The Rodney King beating was in 1991.
Your whole post is an inaccurate depiction of awareness of race relations pre-internet. Pretending like nobody was aware is just a convenient narrative for people who have made race relations a bigger part of their politics in the recent years.
Because the alternative is admitting that they knew damn well but didn't care about it as much. Which would be the truth, but is too uncomfortable to admit.
The Rodney King beating was in 1991.
Your whole post is an inaccurate depiction of awareness of race relations pre-internet. Pretending like nobody was aware is just a convenient narrative for people who have made race relations a bigger part of their politics in the recent years.
Because the alternative is admitting that they knew damn well but didn't care about it as much. Which would be the truth, but is too uncomfortable to admit.
> The Rodney King beating was in 1991.
Sure, but it was portrayable as an isolated, extreme incident because similar events captured on video rather than by word of mouth and the mass violence resulting from the media attention to it made it less, rather than more, likely that similar incidence, even if similarly captured, would get similar attention from the oligopoly establishment media while it had no mass grassroots alternative.
So, unless you mean that to support GPs point, I’m not sure why you point it out.
> Pretending like nobody was aware is just a convenient narrative for people who have made race relations a bigger part of their politics in the recent years.
Whites who weren't personally perpetrators or direct witnesses of racist acts (and even those that were occasional witnesses) were less likely to be aware of the spectrum of racist harassment and violence experienced by Blacks in the US before universal omnipresent cameras and grassroots media to distribute and virally redistribute recordings made the aggregate of individual instances that would have largely never been recorded previously and most of which, even if they had been recorded would have either been individually too minor for the news to cover at all or to inflammatory to cover in an unfiltered way.
Sure, but it was portrayable as an isolated, extreme incident because similar events captured on video rather than by word of mouth and the mass violence resulting from the media attention to it made it less, rather than more, likely that similar incidence, even if similarly captured, would get similar attention from the oligopoly establishment media while it had no mass grassroots alternative.
So, unless you mean that to support GPs point, I’m not sure why you point it out.
> Pretending like nobody was aware is just a convenient narrative for people who have made race relations a bigger part of their politics in the recent years.
Whites who weren't personally perpetrators or direct witnesses of racist acts (and even those that were occasional witnesses) were less likely to be aware of the spectrum of racist harassment and violence experienced by Blacks in the US before universal omnipresent cameras and grassroots media to distribute and virally redistribute recordings made the aggregate of individual instances that would have largely never been recorded previously and most of which, even if they had been recorded would have either been individually too minor for the news to cover at all or to inflammatory to cover in an unfiltered way.
>before universal omnipresent cameras and grassroots media to distribute
Back then people used to actually talk to eachother instead making some small talk in between stretches of staring at their phones all day.
>Whites who weren't personally perpetrators or direct witnesses of racist acts (and even those that were occasional witnesses) were less likely to be aware of the spectrum of racist harassment
I've never had a conversation with an old timer about what it was like back in their day where they weren't extremely in tune with race relations in their hometown with the kind of specificity and subtleties that twitter and other media today just don't have the capacity for.
Back then people used to actually talk to eachother instead making some small talk in between stretches of staring at their phones all day.
>Whites who weren't personally perpetrators or direct witnesses of racist acts (and even those that were occasional witnesses) were less likely to be aware of the spectrum of racist harassment
I've never had a conversation with an old timer about what it was like back in their day where they weren't extremely in tune with race relations in their hometown with the kind of specificity and subtleties that twitter and other media today just don't have the capacity for.
> I've never had a conversation with an old timer about what it was like back in their day where they weren't extremely in tune with race relations in their hometown with the kind of specificity and subtleties that twitter and other media today just don't have the capacity for.
I’ve had plenty with white oldtimers that weren't, even oldtimers who clearly think (or thought at the time) that they were. Oh, sure, they'd have a detailed narrative of race relations, but the details in the narrative would often have as much to do with reality as a Baghdad Bob press briefing.
Because, see, I am a bit of an oldtimer, and not-white (but also raised by educated middle class white parents), so not only could I hear the detailed narratives with their convenient stories about rsce relations and all the narratives around culture, education, etc. that painted a rosy picture of race qua race, I also was kind of optimally positioned to see through the B.S. of many of those narratives.
Yeah, people told stories, but they told them within their in-group, and selected and embellished them to fit their own worldview and the image they wanted to project of themselves and their identity group.
Of course, in a sense that's still the same now, but there is a lot more spread of unfiltered recordings of events outside a narrow oligopolistic media system and unfiltered escape of messages sent within one group to those outside of the group.
I’ve had plenty with white oldtimers that weren't, even oldtimers who clearly think (or thought at the time) that they were. Oh, sure, they'd have a detailed narrative of race relations, but the details in the narrative would often have as much to do with reality as a Baghdad Bob press briefing.
Because, see, I am a bit of an oldtimer, and not-white (but also raised by educated middle class white parents), so not only could I hear the detailed narratives with their convenient stories about rsce relations and all the narratives around culture, education, etc. that painted a rosy picture of race qua race, I also was kind of optimally positioned to see through the B.S. of many of those narratives.
Yeah, people told stories, but they told them within their in-group, and selected and embellished them to fit their own worldview and the image they wanted to project of themselves and their identity group.
Of course, in a sense that's still the same now, but there is a lot more spread of unfiltered recordings of events outside a narrow oligopolistic media system and unfiltered escape of messages sent within one group to those outside of the group.
> If I can believe the current narrative things have been going from bad to worse to black people walk the streets in fear of their lives from racist cops in the last few years.
That's not new, it's just better publicized now:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/12/movies/boyz-n-the-hood-jo...:
> ‘Boyz N the Hood’ at 30: A Vivid Examination of Racism at Work
> ...This is evident when Tre (Cuba Gooding Jr.) interacts with Los Angeles’s finest. As a child he sees how even a Black police officer doesn’t take his father, Furious (Laurence Fishburne), seriously when he reports a home break-in; when Tre is older, the same officer pulls a gun on him during a routine traffic stop. He quickly learns that the cops are there to neither protect nor serve him or his neighbors. What Singleton shows us about the relationship between the police and Black residents may be well understood now, but at the time it was rare for the Black community’s view on policing to be so well embodied by Hollywood. I was always taught to be wary of officers as a young Black man, but this was one of the first times I saw the rationale for that fear onscreen in a major American film.
----
> Either everyone has been blind for decades or the current narrative about racism is a lie meant to achieve some political purpose. I do not believe the former to be true so the latter seems to be the answer but that makes me wonder why the parent poster brought up the bad racism in SF and LA and the racism in Boise, Idaho.
Like most things, it's not that black and white, but a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B.
That's not new, it's just better publicized now:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/12/movies/boyz-n-the-hood-jo...:
> ‘Boyz N the Hood’ at 30: A Vivid Examination of Racism at Work
> ...This is evident when Tre (Cuba Gooding Jr.) interacts with Los Angeles’s finest. As a child he sees how even a Black police officer doesn’t take his father, Furious (Laurence Fishburne), seriously when he reports a home break-in; when Tre is older, the same officer pulls a gun on him during a routine traffic stop. He quickly learns that the cops are there to neither protect nor serve him or his neighbors. What Singleton shows us about the relationship between the police and Black residents may be well understood now, but at the time it was rare for the Black community’s view on policing to be so well embodied by Hollywood. I was always taught to be wary of officers as a young Black man, but this was one of the first times I saw the rationale for that fear onscreen in a major American film.
----
> Either everyone has been blind for decades or the current narrative about racism is a lie meant to achieve some political purpose. I do not believe the former to be true so the latter seems to be the answer but that makes me wonder why the parent poster brought up the bad racism in SF and LA and the racism in Boise, Idaho.
Like most things, it's not that black and white, but a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B.
I was waiting for one of these responses to arrive. And just like clockwork...
So let's dig in:
> If I can believe the current narrative things have been going from bad to worse to black people walk the streets in fear of their lives from racist cops in the last few years.
In fact, just the opposite. It was worse before, but has slowly gotten better. Black artists have been making songs and paintings about corrupt and racist police not for years but for over a century. Body worn cameras and phone cameras have made the evidence irrefutable, "the police lie." So, now the NWA song, "Fuck the Police", wasn't just a bop but an actual indictment of the LAPD set to a 3/4 beat.
> that same flag is being called a racist symbol by leading politicians
You must be confusing the American flag with some other racist flag. No leading politician has ever referred to the stars and stripes as racist.
> the 4th of July supposedly celebrates independence for only part of the population
Umm yeah, that declaration was for land owning, white men. Native Americans didn't get theirs until 1965. We celebrated it but we knew it wasn't "for us"
> everyone has been blind for decades or the current narrative about racism is a lie meant to achieve some political purpose.
Great big omissions about the history of this country have been uncovered. And instead of believing the citizens have been intentionally blinded you prefer to think it's some conspiracy. Carry on.
> why the parent poster brought up the bad racism in SF and LA and the racism in Boise, Idaho.
Because when deciding where to relocate in the US some of us don't have the privilege of going wherever we want. One of the questions that get asked is "is X minority there? and if not why not?" Sometimes it's as simple as location (ie, HI, AK) and sometimes it's an old racist law like sundown towns. I bring up Boise as a counterexample. We're familiar with LAPD and know what to expect when dealing with them, and Bloomberg era NYPD. When discussion on moving out of California came up it was to other large cities with large minority populations, a place like Boise is an enigma to us. We don't know what's there and that can be dangerous for us.
> Is that the change which made it possible to claim racism is everywhere
So a country that is built on racism, which the US was, it tends to be everywhere, just not in expressed in objective terms and concepts you'd be familiar with. For example, Washington has an unnaturally low Black population. Because black people were literally banned from an entire state.
Btw, I'm sorry for you other people have a different experience from you, and that makes you feel uncomfortable.
So let's dig in:
> If I can believe the current narrative things have been going from bad to worse to black people walk the streets in fear of their lives from racist cops in the last few years.
In fact, just the opposite. It was worse before, but has slowly gotten better. Black artists have been making songs and paintings about corrupt and racist police not for years but for over a century. Body worn cameras and phone cameras have made the evidence irrefutable, "the police lie." So, now the NWA song, "Fuck the Police", wasn't just a bop but an actual indictment of the LAPD set to a 3/4 beat.
> that same flag is being called a racist symbol by leading politicians
You must be confusing the American flag with some other racist flag. No leading politician has ever referred to the stars and stripes as racist.
> the 4th of July supposedly celebrates independence for only part of the population
Umm yeah, that declaration was for land owning, white men. Native Americans didn't get theirs until 1965. We celebrated it but we knew it wasn't "for us"
> everyone has been blind for decades or the current narrative about racism is a lie meant to achieve some political purpose.
Great big omissions about the history of this country have been uncovered. And instead of believing the citizens have been intentionally blinded you prefer to think it's some conspiracy. Carry on.
> why the parent poster brought up the bad racism in SF and LA and the racism in Boise, Idaho.
Because when deciding where to relocate in the US some of us don't have the privilege of going wherever we want. One of the questions that get asked is "is X minority there? and if not why not?" Sometimes it's as simple as location (ie, HI, AK) and sometimes it's an old racist law like sundown towns. I bring up Boise as a counterexample. We're familiar with LAPD and know what to expect when dealing with them, and Bloomberg era NYPD. When discussion on moving out of California came up it was to other large cities with large minority populations, a place like Boise is an enigma to us. We don't know what's there and that can be dangerous for us.
> Is that the change which made it possible to claim racism is everywhere
So a country that is built on racism, which the US was, it tends to be everywhere, just not in expressed in objective terms and concepts you'd be familiar with. For example, Washington has an unnaturally low Black population. Because black people were literally banned from an entire state.
Btw, I'm sorry for you other people have a different experience from you, and that makes you feel uncomfortable.
> Either everyone has been blind for decades or the current narrative about racism is a lie meant to achieve some political purpose.
I think it's a bit of both. As the saying goes, "I can tolerate anyone except the outgroup" [1]. Part of that is racism, sure. A lot of it is people being uncomfortable with outsiders in general.
But also the left has found that words like racism, bigotry, xenophobia, etc. are very big sticks, and a big stick is a fun thing to hit your opponents with.
[1] https://www.slatestarcodexabridged.com/I-Can-Tolerate-Anythi...
I think it's a bit of both. As the saying goes, "I can tolerate anyone except the outgroup" [1]. Part of that is racism, sure. A lot of it is people being uncomfortable with outsiders in general.
But also the left has found that words like racism, bigotry, xenophobia, etc. are very big sticks, and a big stick is a fun thing to hit your opponents with.
[1] https://www.slatestarcodexabridged.com/I-Can-Tolerate-Anythi...
I moved to Austin in November after 10 years in the Bay Area and a lifetime in different parts of California. Not a chance we will move back, certainly not for decades.
The most refreshing part of the change is that people are genuinely nicer and more friendly around here than anywhere I lived in California (OC, SD, SF, Berkeley, Stockton for college). I really didn’t expect that, which I think was probably due to crude stereotypes Californians like to spread about Texas. Ultimately I think the grind of just trying to live a decent life in the crowded/expensive parts of CA takes its toll on the populace.
The weather takes some adjusting, but not more than it took to adjust to the Bay Area fogginess for this SoCal native. Most of the year it’s beautiful out here.
The most refreshing part of the change is that people are genuinely nicer and more friendly around here than anywhere I lived in California (OC, SD, SF, Berkeley, Stockton for college). I really didn’t expect that, which I think was probably due to crude stereotypes Californians like to spread about Texas. Ultimately I think the grind of just trying to live a decent life in the crowded/expensive parts of CA takes its toll on the populace.
The weather takes some adjusting, but not more than it took to adjust to the Bay Area fogginess for this SoCal native. Most of the year it’s beautiful out here.
Dont worry, most of California is moving to Texas, so Texas will be just like California in no time, long before "decades", so you will not need to move back California is coming to you
The data I've seen contradicts your assertion https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-bay-area-exodus-that-wasnt-...
Well that is a pay-walled site, and I refuse to support any "mainstream" media at this point so I will not be buying a subscription to view your link
but he headline seem to be talking SanFran, but I can not know for sure
However actual statewide data, based on US Census totals, shows that over all CA is one of only a few states that have a net Population LOSS over the last 10 years, so much so they are losing a congressional seat.
I will link to some non-paywall sites for you, like proper Netiquette dictates
[1] https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2021/05/07/...
[2] https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/californias-population-f...
[3] https://www.cbs8.com/article/news/local/california/californi...
but he headline seem to be talking SanFran, but I can not know for sure
However actual statewide data, based on US Census totals, shows that over all CA is one of only a few states that have a net Population LOSS over the last 10 years, so much so they are losing a congressional seat.
I will link to some non-paywall sites for you, like proper Netiquette dictates
[1] https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2021/05/07/...
[2] https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/californias-population-f...
[3] https://www.cbs8.com/article/news/local/california/californi...
> based on US Census totals, shows that over all CA is one of only a few states that have a net Population LOSS over the last 10 years
Not only did it not lose population, its not even one of the five slowest-growing states.
“The five states with the slowest population growth, all under 2.5%, were: Connecticut, Michigan, Ohio, Wyoming, and Pennsylvania.”
https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/04/2020-census-d...
Not only did it not lose population, its not even one of the five slowest-growing states.
“The five states with the slowest population growth, all under 2.5%, were: Connecticut, Michigan, Ohio, Wyoming, and Pennsylvania.”
https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/04/2020-census-d...
> over all CA is one of only a few states that have a net Population LOSS over the last 10 years
This is simply wrong.
Your links all clearly indicate CA had a population loss for the first time ever in the year 2020. Not for the entire decade. CA lost a seat because growth slowed, not went negative.
Edit: Population, Census, April 1, 2020 39,538,223 Population, Census, April 1, 2010 37,253,956 via https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/CA
This is simply wrong.
Your links all clearly indicate CA had a population loss for the first time ever in the year 2020. Not for the entire decade. CA lost a seat because growth slowed, not went negative.
Edit: Population, Census, April 1, 2020 39,538,223 Population, Census, April 1, 2010 37,253,956 via https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/CA
Honestly I hear as many complaints living in Washington of WA natives criticizing people from Texas moving to Washington and how they're going to ruin XYZ. That was a poorly worded sentence but hopefully you get my meaning
A double-edge sword, right there it is.
I've been to Austin. I felt trapped in a flat plane of existence in Texas. I need mountains to escape to on my time off. But as a native Californian, I hope a lot of people move out to Texas. Several million would be a good start.
Did you spend any time in the hill country on the south/west parts of town? They have a very different feel than the flat parts.
Yes, they're nice but it's like comparing skiing in New England with skiing in the Rockies or Sierras.
I didn’t say they were comparable to the Sierra Nevada or coastal ranges, was merely trying to understand your “trapped in a flat plane of existence” line.
If we want to go for some real good skiing, Utah or Colorado are short flights and will likely have much better & more consistent snow than CA has for the past decade :)
If we want to go for some real good skiing, Utah or Colorado are short flights and will likely have much better & more consistent snow than CA has for the past decade :)
Having grown up around hill country Texas, it absolutely in no way compares to real mountains :) Only thing I miss about Texas is lower housing prices, but even those are high in desired areas in big cities.
I could fly anywhere, but there's something really nice about driving to the mountains for the weekend
The Sierra are fine if you live in CA, but I would take the VT/NH backcountry every time given a choice. The Rockies are a different story.
I've been there. It's nice but it's not "the mountains" in the sense of Santa Cruz much less the Sierras. I'm pretty sure I'd feel a lack of recreation opportunities to my liking in the Austin area.
Concur, I was ahead of the curve and fled San Francisco and California in 2018 for Nashville, TN and don’t anticipate ever moving back even though my immediate family is still in Cali. I don’t want to give California a cent of my tax dollars ever again.
I absolutely love Nashville and Tennessee and even bought a house at the height of Covid. The people and southern hospitality are amazing (though I am seeing a lot of California plates lately around which frankly is making me nervous). Nashville is a such a beautiful city, opportunity is unlimited, amazing night life, food, culture, and of course music. Southern is way more my style and speed.
I absolutely love Nashville and Tennessee and even bought a house at the height of Covid. The people and southern hospitality are amazing (though I am seeing a lot of California plates lately around which frankly is making me nervous). Nashville is a such a beautiful city, opportunity is unlimited, amazing night life, food, culture, and of course music. Southern is way more my style and speed.
> I really didn’t expect that, which I think was probably due to crude stereotypes Californians like to spread about Texas.
Portland likes to spread crude stereotypes about Californians just the same. When I visited San Diego I was truly surprised at how nice everyone was. Outside of Hawaii, it was the nicest encounter I'd had with large groups of people ever.
Some of the folks I encountered in Sacramento, SF, and San Jose definitely lived up to their alleged reputation though... they were not so nice.
Portland likes to spread crude stereotypes about Californians just the same. When I visited San Diego I was truly surprised at how nice everyone was. Outside of Hawaii, it was the nicest encounter I'd had with large groups of people ever.
Some of the folks I encountered in Sacramento, SF, and San Jose definitely lived up to their alleged reputation though... they were not so nice.
Outside of places that have serious economic/societal issues, generalizing cities as being "nice" or not is absurd. It all depends on the crowd you're around and/or which part of town you are in. Especially annoying is when someone compares the slow-paced, affluent suburb they move to with a high-paced, downtown area they left.
> The weather takes some adjusting, but not more than it took to adjust to the Bay Area fogginess for this SoCal native. Most of the year it’s beautiful out here.
4 months a year above 90F, 7 months above 80F. I'm glad it works for you, but that's some adjusting indeed; people don't set their thermostats to 80F or 90F for a reason, and it's not just cost.
Regarding Bay Area fogginess, did you mean SF / Pacific coast fogginess? Most of the Bay Area seems to be fog-free. I don't remember the last time I saw fog in San Mateo.
4 months a year above 90F, 7 months above 80F. I'm glad it works for you, but that's some adjusting indeed; people don't set their thermostats to 80F or 90F for a reason, and it's not just cost.
Regarding Bay Area fogginess, did you mean SF / Pacific coast fogginess? Most of the Bay Area seems to be fog-free. I don't remember the last time I saw fog in San Mateo.
I live in Austin right now after almost a decade in the Bay. It's nice and I can see why people like it: it's got more of the kind of vibe which lets you raise a family - very suburban, relatively cheap (wrt the Bay Area), people will say hi on the street, stuff like that. San Francisco is a city, though, as small as it is, in a way that Austin isn't, as big as it is.
Just like London and New York City are in a different class from little SF.
The heat is kind of unfortunate, but I can tell you that sitting in an air-conditioned home looking out at a sunny day beats sitting in a heated home looking out at a foggy day for me. I wish SF didn't have the fog and was all sunny all the time.
The only thing is the politics, though. Texas politics, which leaks to Austin, is very top-down big-government. SF and maybe CA politics is more personal freedom. Lots more taxes and corruption in CA, as far as I can see, but definitely more personal freedom too (except in gun rights).
Just like London and New York City are in a different class from little SF.
The heat is kind of unfortunate, but I can tell you that sitting in an air-conditioned home looking out at a sunny day beats sitting in a heated home looking out at a foggy day for me. I wish SF didn't have the fog and was all sunny all the time.
The only thing is the politics, though. Texas politics, which leaks to Austin, is very top-down big-government. SF and maybe CA politics is more personal freedom. Lots more taxes and corruption in CA, as far as I can see, but definitely more personal freedom too (except in gun rights).
> Texas politics, which leaks to Austin, is very top-down big-government. SF and maybe CA politics is more personal freedom.
I don't see that at all. California is one of the hardest places in the country to run a small business. It's #1 or #2 in high taxes every year. California very restrictive and proscriptive land use laws (Rent control, permitting requirements, mandatory building laws, etc). California also has some of the strictest professional/occupational licensing laws in the country.
Unless you're only focused on getting booze delivered and buying pot, almost anything you want to do is cheaper, easier, and more legal in Texas.
I don't see that at all. California is one of the hardest places in the country to run a small business. It's #1 or #2 in high taxes every year. California very restrictive and proscriptive land use laws (Rent control, permitting requirements, mandatory building laws, etc). California also has some of the strictest professional/occupational licensing laws in the country.
Unless you're only focused on getting booze delivered and buying pot, almost anything you want to do is cheaper, easier, and more legal in Texas.
Oh, I see those as freedom, yes, but not that around my person.
Yeah, there's a lot deregulated in Texas, but for personal freedom it is some seriously big government stuff. In the Bay, I can buy and consume weed or psychedelics, I can drink in the park, I can generally be naked. Texas is very big on government policing personal behaviour. They're not really about individuals having freedom around their person.
Yeah, there's a lot deregulated in Texas, but for personal freedom it is some seriously big government stuff. In the Bay, I can buy and consume weed or psychedelics, I can drink in the park, I can generally be naked. Texas is very big on government policing personal behaviour. They're not really about individuals having freedom around their person.
[deleted]
Literally six months ago: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/14/technology/san-francisco-...
It's almost like a trend can change over time. Especially with the rise of vaccines and the progress on pandemic control.
Who pays for these kinds of articles? Is there some PR firm Big Tech funds to get these kinds of articles? Just doesn't seem like the type of stuff NYTimes really cares about but I guess clicks is all that matters.
It is quite clear that with these types of articles, NYTimes is pushing an agenda.
I'm not native english speaker, is "It is quite clear" a synonym for "I'm baselessly speculating"?
Lol not always but an observer could take it that way. It’s clear to them but it is still just someone’s opinion.
"it is quite clear" sounds very much like an euphemism for "I just believe that" here.
Yea seriously. How is population shifts not in the public interest? Especially in the most expensive state in the country? If there is some agenda, I’d love to hear the reasoning behind it but COVID’s impact on cities seems like a reasonable thing to write about.
It isn't quite clear to me. What agenda and who does it benefit? Where's the connection to the New York Times itself?
The decline of SF is seen as an indictment of progressivism run amok.
From a card-carrying progressive Ezra Klein:
“If progressivism can’t work there, why should the country believe it can work anywhere else?”
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/11/opinion/california-san-fr...
From a card-carrying progressive Ezra Klein:
“If progressivism can’t work there, why should the country believe it can work anywhere else?”
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/11/opinion/california-san-fr...
How is massive consolidation of wealth for VCs and unicorn startups, fueled by a speculative investment environment, seen as "progressive?"
That’s a bit of a cop out. The Bay Area had some of the most progressive politicians and progressive policies in the country.
I’ve seen plenty of progressives claim “they aren’t true progressives” but that comes across as a bit of a “no true Scotsman” argument that you hear from defenders of communism.
And it begs the question - if no one has been able to attain “true” whatever, is it really even an option?
I’ve seen plenty of progressives claim “they aren’t true progressives” but that comes across as a bit of a “no true Scotsman” argument that you hear from defenders of communism.
And it begs the question - if no one has been able to attain “true” whatever, is it really even an option?
"Extreme inequality ruins things" is more of a progressive belief than a conservative one. Enter SF!
How a place is governed is different from the party people run on, and the lack of accountability on results is the current failing of SF. Execution matters, not just ideas.
What is it that people think the TX government is better at? What similar challenges has the government of, say, Fort Worth faced as SF, and what solution did it have? NIMBYism and other such fun aspects are alive and well there, so if you throw the rapid change and influx of huge money at it, you're going to see some shit. Show me the policies existing in a TX city you'd use to fix SF.
You'll be helped by the massive amount of land still available to sprawl into... but that's a natural difference, not a political one!
How a place is governed is different from the party people run on, and the lack of accountability on results is the current failing of SF. Execution matters, not just ideas.
What is it that people think the TX government is better at? What similar challenges has the government of, say, Fort Worth faced as SF, and what solution did it have? NIMBYism and other such fun aspects are alive and well there, so if you throw the rapid change and influx of huge money at it, you're going to see some shit. Show me the policies existing in a TX city you'd use to fix SF.
You'll be helped by the massive amount of land still available to sprawl into... but that's a natural difference, not a political one!
This seems to be a lot of excuse making. If you dig deep enough you can find that SF - despite the growth and huge tax revenues - has failed to effectively deliver even simple government services like policing and keeping the community clean. And in terms of addressing the challenges of growth I’m not sure SF has done anything at all. They certainly haven’t built more housing, improved transit or anything else. And this is in a city entirely run by Democrats in a state where the Democrats have full control of all levels of Govt.
If you had given an example where a really effective policy was instituted that at least made some small aspect better I might agree but even that’s not apparent.
If you had given an example where a really effective policy was instituted that at least made some small aspect better I might agree but even that’s not apparent.
Lack of accountability on results is the hallmark of progressivism. As long as the intentions were good, outcomes don't seem to matter.
This seems to be a statement on the level of "cruelty is the point of conservatism." It's non-serious, even if we pretend that there's never been a conservative policy enacted that didn't deliver it's promised goals. It's noteworthy for how it completely fails to give an example of a conservative city or state in the US that faced and solved similar problems.
Well considering the failure of the SF BOS to effectively address any of the cities challenge yet still get re-elected time and time again (even after showing they do the same things their voters complain about) goes pretty far in backing up that claim. As long as politicians in SF say the right thing, that’s all voters seem to care about.
To add to this, there is little to no evidence that diversity initiatives we see today actually helps diversity. It is a big charade and they attack those who don't want to play along with it.
Any examples you'd like to bring up? It's far more common for politicians to claim to be progressive up until the point of assuming office, only to revert to status-quo business as usual afterwards. Obama is the most famous recent example that comes to mind. Ending wars, closing Guantanamo, restraining police state spying, making college more affordable, and implementing socialized healthcare were all campaign agenda items of his that were never achieved even when his party had a super-majority (most never even mentioned again once he was in office).
So laying it solely at the feet of politicians is the real answer? SF has seen a massive accumulation of capital and influx of wealthy residents to its housing market over an incredibly short time span. Huge changes in material conditions like that have infinitely more effect on a city than the stated policy agendas of its figureheads.
EDIT since you added more: it's not about a purity test for different shades of progressivism, it's that a hyper-capitalistic corporate investment market converging on one city is literally the opposite of anything progressivism has ever claimed to be.
EDIT since you added more: it's not about a purity test for different shades of progressivism, it's that a hyper-capitalistic corporate investment market converging on one city is literally the opposite of anything progressivism has ever claimed to be.
No true Scotsman is only a fallacy when you are never given a definition of what a true Scotsman is. That's when the fallacy appears. When the person saying it can always retreat to an ambiguous never stated definition. He won't tell you what a real Scotsman is, but he will have the authority to tell you any examples you show him are not it.
For communism and socialism you are given the definition time and time again but people in your position always choose to ignore it and repeat the no true Scotsman meme.
I can tell you the definition, in exchange of you not using that meme anymore. Sounds fair?
For communism and socialism you are given the definition time and time again but people in your position always choose to ignore it and repeat the no true Scotsman meme.
I can tell you the definition, in exchange of you not using that meme anymore. Sounds fair?
NYT complains about that, too.
I agree with your take and it is ironic/funny because the rise of SF is so much due to capitalism run amok.
progressivism isn’t the problem in SF, I’m not sure how anyone can think their city level policies are progressive
SF isn’t idealistic/fantasy progressivism, it is what it progressivism looks like in practice.
Can you describe more of what you mean by that? What part of letting the richest companies on earth set up shop in your city and using little to none of that wealth to establish helpful social programs is progressive?
This is obviously farcical because SF does not exist in a vacuum separate from the federal government or the desperately poor conservative areas that siphon tax revenues from the progressive cities. Let alone the fact that SF hyper capitalism is about as far from progressive economic beliefs as possible.
But by the same vacuum-logic, Kansas under Brownback is what conservatism looks like in practice: a massive, unmitigated failure so big that even the conservatives themselves raised taxes. And that’s with all that free tax money from well run states helping out.
But by the same vacuum-logic, Kansas under Brownback is what conservatism looks like in practice: a massive, unmitigated failure so big that even the conservatives themselves raised taxes. And that’s with all that free tax money from well run states helping out.
Well said, and great counter-example. People in this thread think "progressive" means "vaguely liberal west coast city," regardless of actual policy, economic systems or the broader context of what's going on in the entire country.
I don't think there's an "agenda" here.
There were dozens and dozens of articles in every publication over the last decade or longer about the decline of SF, COL is too expensive, homeless, dodging shit on the street, etc.
Then the pandemic and exponentially more articles about the flight from SF, NYC, etc. people are now fleeing for good.
Of course the actual statistics show a tiny fraction of people left SF. I think an article which focuses on this reality is well warranted.
If anything the people criticizing this article have an agenda in their belief that SF is awful and everyone should leave and anything to the contrary is of course biased.
Not that I should have to say this but there is of course plenty to criticize about SF and the Bay Area. The reality is the overwhelming majority of people are not leaving anytime soon. Only a tiny fraction are leaving.
There were dozens and dozens of articles in every publication over the last decade or longer about the decline of SF, COL is too expensive, homeless, dodging shit on the street, etc.
Then the pandemic and exponentially more articles about the flight from SF, NYC, etc. people are now fleeing for good.
Of course the actual statistics show a tiny fraction of people left SF. I think an article which focuses on this reality is well warranted.
If anything the people criticizing this article have an agenda in their belief that SF is awful and everyone should leave and anything to the contrary is of course biased.
Not that I should have to say this but there is of course plenty to criticize about SF and the Bay Area. The reality is the overwhelming majority of people are not leaving anytime soon. Only a tiny fraction are leaving.
Not sure but everyone they asked said they would like to go back to the office. I don't think a single person said no I don't want to go back to the office full or part time. Seems biased.
I would guess a return-back-to-the-office agenda, but then again, I've been told here on HN that the NYT is not of 'one mind' and/or is diverse and impartial so what do I know /s
At least then there would be a consistent narrative, but if you look under the article you can see that in January they had a headline about how everyone was leaving.
Bay area realtors?
[deleted]
Obviously yes there is.
It's almost as if we shouldn't generalize short term trends in the middle of a generational event into long term predictions.
This should have been absolutely expected. Tech giants were even buying up offices during the pandemic ostensibly in anticipation of larger workforces in the Bay Area.
Google and Facebook both expanded their real estate along the Embarcadero waterfront. On the retail side, Ikea made its first purchase for a retail store in SF. Construction hasn't taken a back seat in SF during the lock down. These stories often get hidden by the catchy headlines of who's shutting down offices and going fully remote.
Google and others also bought offices in places like Sunnyvale, north San Jose (not the downtown site but rather a separate one), etc
No way in hell I will ever go back.
I'd love to come back, but the problem isn't with the city, it's the political situation.
Who wants to start a company or a business if the local government can arbitrarily shut down your office for several months? Who wants to live in a city that could shut down bars, restaurants, and theaters for a year. I'd rather make my own decisions based on my personal health situation. For several months a vaccinated individual and business owner could not consensually do business without a face mask. Where is the science in that?
Things might be different if there were no other options, but the US is a big place. There is a lot of competition, and life is too short to sacrifice years of your life for the whims of some bureaucrat. Ironically this is the same reason I moved to San Francisco in the first place; it was a place where diverse people and cultures had the freedom to express themselves.
Who wants to start a company or a business if the local government can arbitrarily shut down your office for several months? Who wants to live in a city that could shut down bars, restaurants, and theaters for a year. I'd rather make my own decisions based on my personal health situation. For several months a vaccinated individual and business owner could not consensually do business without a face mask. Where is the science in that?
Things might be different if there were no other options, but the US is a big place. There is a lot of competition, and life is too short to sacrifice years of your life for the whims of some bureaucrat. Ironically this is the same reason I moved to San Francisco in the first place; it was a place where diverse people and cultures had the freedom to express themselves.
So you don't want to do business in CA, NY, Europe, Great Britain, Singapore, China, India, Australia, New Zealand, or Mexico, to name a few?
Basically, you don't want to start a business in any of the world's biggest economies, or in the places with the best tech scenes or financing opportunities?
Activities were shutdown because of a massive global pandemic the likes of which the world hasn't seen for over a century. 4 million people are dead, and counting, and there have been at least 4 surges related to new strains spreading.
And you're leaving/left because you had to wear a face mask?
That is not the hill to die on.
Basically, you don't want to start a business in any of the world's biggest economies, or in the places with the best tech scenes or financing opportunities?
Activities were shutdown because of a massive global pandemic the likes of which the world hasn't seen for over a century. 4 million people are dead, and counting, and there have been at least 4 surges related to new strains spreading.
And you're leaving/left because you had to wear a face mask?
That is not the hill to die on.
The refusal to follow the CDC guidelines for vaccinated individuals and masks was simply a good example of a government that was/is not interested in following the science, and demonstrates that CA is not going to act rationally in a public health situation. That's not an environment I would want to risk starting a business or investing in.
It sounds like you have an ideological issue rather than a scientific one.
CA's lockdowns were based on scientific evidence that COVID19 spreads through the air. Requiring masks was based on that evidence. As there were a lot of scientific unknowns during the past year, the lockdowns were overly broad as a matter of necessity--nobody knew how bad it could get. Moreover, CA's refusal to stick to the lackadaisal CDC guidelines was based heavily on the Trump administration's politicization of COVID19, and especially on the CDC's missteps at the beginning of the COVID19 crisis (i.e., when they were originally advising people not to wear masks...because they wanted to save them for medical workers and had neglected to make purchase orders for masks).
Requiring masks after vaccination was required for several months because it wasn't yet known how effective vaccinations would be in the real world. Once that data was established, the mask mandate ended for the vaccinated.
Also, note that the vaccinated can still get and spread COVID19, especially the newer strains like delta, they simply won't suffer severe symptoms if they do get infected.
If you don't want to live in an environment like CA where science and public health plays a role in decision-making, it's probably for the best that you're not living in CA.
CA's lockdowns were based on scientific evidence that COVID19 spreads through the air. Requiring masks was based on that evidence. As there were a lot of scientific unknowns during the past year, the lockdowns were overly broad as a matter of necessity--nobody knew how bad it could get. Moreover, CA's refusal to stick to the lackadaisal CDC guidelines was based heavily on the Trump administration's politicization of COVID19, and especially on the CDC's missteps at the beginning of the COVID19 crisis (i.e., when they were originally advising people not to wear masks...because they wanted to save them for medical workers and had neglected to make purchase orders for masks).
Requiring masks after vaccination was required for several months because it wasn't yet known how effective vaccinations would be in the real world. Once that data was established, the mask mandate ended for the vaccinated.
Also, note that the vaccinated can still get and spread COVID19, especially the newer strains like delta, they simply won't suffer severe symptoms if they do get infected.
If you don't want to live in an environment like CA where science and public health plays a role in decision-making, it's probably for the best that you're not living in CA.
Come on, for a while there we had a “0% ICU capacity” despite empty beds because every COVID patient counted as two people or something [1]. That’s not science.
We did some things right, but the state government really, really is not some bastion of good sense.
[1]: https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/12/29/how-can-california-ha...
We did some things right, but the state government really, really is not some bastion of good sense.
[1]: https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/12/29/how-can-california-ha...
> And you're leaving/left because you had to wear a face mask?
You really shouldn't put words in the author's mouth. They very clearly said:
> government can arbitrarily shut down your office for several months
and
> a city that could shut down bars, restaurants, and theaters for a year
There are a number of states that managed to keep schools, restaurants, and barbershops open without having worse outcomes than California did. And when the state chose to ignore the CDC for an entire month and keep things locked down, even for vaccinated people, it kinda pushed a lot of people over the edge.
You really shouldn't put words in the author's mouth. They very clearly said:
> government can arbitrarily shut down your office for several months
and
> a city that could shut down bars, restaurants, and theaters for a year
There are a number of states that managed to keep schools, restaurants, and barbershops open without having worse outcomes than California did. And when the state chose to ignore the CDC for an entire month and keep things locked down, even for vaccinated people, it kinda pushed a lot of people over the edge.
government can arbitrarily shut down your office for several months
Not arbitrary. Based on evidence that COVID19 is airborne, and that standard office/business filters were insufficient to filter out the virus, most indoor businesses were closed down to limit the spread except those deemed "essential."
There are a number of states that managed to keep schools, restaurants, and barbershops open without having worse outcomes than California did.
That's not true at all. On a per capita basis, those states ended up having significantly higher infection rates and death rates.
Not arbitrary. Based on evidence that COVID19 is airborne, and that standard office/business filters were insufficient to filter out the virus, most indoor businesses were closed down to limit the spread except those deemed "essential."
There are a number of states that managed to keep schools, restaurants, and barbershops open without having worse outcomes than California did.
That's not true at all. On a per capita basis, those states ended up having significantly higher infection rates and death rates.
We should have learned by now don't NY Times articles about the City.
The answer is FOMO which the millennial generation has heaps of. That’ll keep them coming back for a while at least.
The prices suck, and if you need to improve your network you can meet the vast majority of tech people online (IRC, Discord, email, online conferences).
Weather?