The sea was never blue (2017)(aeon.co)
aeon.co
The sea was never blue (2017)
https://aeon.co/essays/can-we-hope-to-understand-how-the-greeks-saw-their-world
13 comments
Source:
https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1989/10/29
Thanks to this excellent search engine:
https://michaelyingling.com/random/calvin_and_hobbes/
which might be of more interest to HN viewers.
https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1989/10/29
Thanks to this excellent search engine:
https://michaelyingling.com/random/calvin_and_hobbes/
which might be of more interest to HN viewers.
My greatest triumph as a parent is that I've had this actual conversation with my son. At the age of 7, he still believes this.
You should explain to him how they determine the load limit on bridges.
https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1986/11/26
https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1986/11/26
The interpretations given in this article to many Ancient Greek words referring to colors are frequently encountered in comments about the Ancient Greek literature, but for many of them it is extremely doubtful that they have any connections with reality.
For example there is nothing to justify the idea that "kuaneos" was used "to denote a dark shade of blue merging into black" and even much less that it has ever meant "blue-green", as "cyan" means now in English.
The only certain thing about "kuaneos" is that its original meaning was "of the color of the pigment ultramarine blue". The Greek name of the ultramarine blue pigment was "kuanos", from which "kuaneos" was derived in a regular way. Besides "kuanos" there was another pigment frequently mentioned by Homer, "miltos", which was red iron oxide, so that is another color whose meaning is certain.
So "kuaneos" meant, without doubt, just "blue". Homer and other poets did not use the color terms very precisely. In many cases they chose the words that sounded better in that positions of the verse and not those that would have been more appropriate in meaning. Therefor "kuaneos" could be used for any kind of bluish colors, usually for colors of darker hues, because there were few if any objects of light blue color at that time. Nevertheless, the meaning of the word was just blue as a blue paint, without other connotations.
Also in the article, "polios" is said to be "whitish". I do not know where did the author find such an interpretation. There is no doubt that "polios" meant "gray", i.e. the color intermediate between white and black. It means neither "whitish" nor "blackish" but just the middle between white and black.
Some later authors say this precisely, but even in Homer and Hesiod there is no doubt about the meaning. "Polios" is used for iron, for platinum-group metal alloys (a.k.a. "adamant"), for gray wolves, for the hair of aging people who are not yet old enough to have white hair.
The precise meaning of "glaukos" is not known, but there is very little, if any, proof that it might have meant "blue-gray". "Glaukos" was mostly used about eyes, so it might have meant "light blue" as there are few eyes that would suggest the color "blue-gray".
And so on.
For example there is nothing to justify the idea that "kuaneos" was used "to denote a dark shade of blue merging into black" and even much less that it has ever meant "blue-green", as "cyan" means now in English.
The only certain thing about "kuaneos" is that its original meaning was "of the color of the pigment ultramarine blue". The Greek name of the ultramarine blue pigment was "kuanos", from which "kuaneos" was derived in a regular way. Besides "kuanos" there was another pigment frequently mentioned by Homer, "miltos", which was red iron oxide, so that is another color whose meaning is certain.
So "kuaneos" meant, without doubt, just "blue". Homer and other poets did not use the color terms very precisely. In many cases they chose the words that sounded better in that positions of the verse and not those that would have been more appropriate in meaning. Therefor "kuaneos" could be used for any kind of bluish colors, usually for colors of darker hues, because there were few if any objects of light blue color at that time. Nevertheless, the meaning of the word was just blue as a blue paint, without other connotations.
Also in the article, "polios" is said to be "whitish". I do not know where did the author find such an interpretation. There is no doubt that "polios" meant "gray", i.e. the color intermediate between white and black. It means neither "whitish" nor "blackish" but just the middle between white and black.
Some later authors say this precisely, but even in Homer and Hesiod there is no doubt about the meaning. "Polios" is used for iron, for platinum-group metal alloys (a.k.a. "adamant"), for gray wolves, for the hair of aging people who are not yet old enough to have white hair.
The precise meaning of "glaukos" is not known, but there is very little, if any, proof that it might have meant "blue-gray". "Glaukos" was mostly used about eyes, so it might have meant "light blue" as there are few eyes that would suggest the color "blue-gray".
And so on.
"glaux" IIRC originally meant a kind of owl that was sacred to Athena. So likely "glaukopis" meant something more like "owl-eyed", at least for a while. And Glaukopis is often seen as an epithet given to Athena.
Athena being, among other things, the goddess of practical intelligence (as Athena Ergane she was the patron of craftsmen), and visual perception having an important part in that, the metaphor is fitting.
No doubt the meaning kept shifting in time.
Athena being, among other things, the goddess of practical intelligence (as Athena Ergane she was the patron of craftsmen), and visual perception having an important part in that, the metaphor is fitting.
No doubt the meaning kept shifting in time.
That makes me wonder whether "okeanos", Greek for 'ocean', is related kuaneos. I haven't been able to find the proper etymology of ocean.
To show an etymological connection requires more than just a superficial resemblance. You would need to explain where the "o" in o-keanos came from and why "-ua-" would change to "-ea-" in that environment but not in other environments. It looks like most sources guess that it's a loanword but there are a few other speculations given on Wiktionary:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%A8%CE%BA%CE%B5%CE%B1%C...
>where the "o" in o-keanos came from
That would be an easy task, since "o" means "the" for male subjects in ancient Greek (grammatical articles like "the" were gendered).
So o-kyanos would literally be "the cyan one".
(Not saying that's the etymology, but the "o" would be easy to explain).
As for the "y" changing to "e", similar changes happen all the time in ancient, hellenistic and medieval Greek for phonetic reasons (literally: just because it sounded better this way). It can also be the case that there were several variants in different city states, and the modern version is just the one that stuck.
That would be an easy task, since "o" means "the" for male subjects in ancient Greek (grammatical articles like "the" were gendered).
So o-kyanos would literally be "the cyan one".
(Not saying that's the etymology, but the "o" would be easy to explain).
As for the "y" changing to "e", similar changes happen all the time in ancient, hellenistic and medieval Greek for phonetic reasons (literally: just because it sounded better this way). It can also be the case that there were several variants in different city states, and the modern version is just the one that stuck.
> That would be an easy task, since "o" means "the" for male subjects in ancient Greek (grammatical articles like "the" were gendered).
Not really. There would need to be an explanation why ho -> ō in this case where no such change occurs in other words. As well as why it does not follow the model of οὗτος in declension.
Not really. There would need to be an explanation why ho -> ō in this case where no such change occurs in other words. As well as why it does not follow the model of οὗτος in declension.
>As well as why it does not follow the model of οὗτος in declension.
Well, okeanos does follow the model of οὗτος in declension.
Well, okeanos does follow the model of οὗτος in declension.
This is a very interesting article, but the headline is an unholy synthesis of gaslighting and clickbait. Better title from the URL: Can we hope to understand how the Greeks saw their world?"
Some fellows named Berlin and Kay put forward a colour term development hypothesis/theory:
> Basic Color Terms: Their Universality and Evolution (1969; ISBN 1-57586-162-3) is a book by Brent Berlin and Paul Kay. Berlin and Kay's work proposed that the basic color terms in a culture, such as black, brown, or red, are predictable by the number of color terms the culture has. All cultures have terms for black/dark and white/bright. If a culture has three color terms, the third is red. If a culture has four, it has either yellow or green.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Color_Terms
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity_and_the_...
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue–green_distinction_in_lang...
> Basic Color Terms: Their Universality and Evolution (1969; ISBN 1-57586-162-3) is a book by Brent Berlin and Paul Kay. Berlin and Kay's work proposed that the basic color terms in a culture, such as black, brown, or red, are predictable by the number of color terms the culture has. All cultures have terms for black/dark and white/bright. If a culture has three color terms, the third is red. If a culture has four, it has either yellow or green.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Color_Terms
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity_and_the_...
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue–green_distinction_in_lang...