Where does the plastic in oceans come from?(ourworldindata.org)
ourworldindata.org
Where does the plastic in oceans come from?
https://ourworldindata.org/ocean-plastics
194 comments
The massive concentration in the Philippines is one of the most interesting takeaways here. I ended up poking around for more details on this, and it looks like the causes relate to, among other things, a lack of proper waste disposal and an industry reliance on plastic sachets for food packaging.
Sources: https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/health/article/2168819/philip...
https://news.mongabay.com/2018/10/plastic-trash-from-the-sac...
https://urban-links.org/insight/turning-the-tide-on-ocean-pl...
Sources: https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/health/article/2168819/philip...
https://news.mongabay.com/2018/10/plastic-trash-from-the-sac...
https://urban-links.org/insight/turning-the-tide-on-ocean-pl...
I met a company once that sells parking lot-sized incinerators [1]. The only market they managed to get traction was the Philippines. I guess proper waste disposal is difficult when you are spread around many islands like that.
[1] https://www.theedgemarkets.com/article/cover-story-trash-ash
[1] https://www.theedgemarkets.com/article/cover-story-trash-ash
Interesting point regarding the incinerators! From what I've read, a lot of it has to do with systemic mismanagement of the situation from the various governments over the past few decades.
[deleted]
As long as we're discussing the source of this pollution by nation there will never be a solution.
Wonder if this is connected to China ceasing to accept trash/recycling from the US.
I really hate that recycling became essentially a for-profit shell game of shipping it somewhere else to be a problem rather than dealing with building the domestic infrastructure needed to correctly handle it (including not overselling recycling so we could get waste-to-energy plants as part of the mix).
I really hate that recycling became essentially a for-profit shell game of shipping it somewhere else to be a problem rather than dealing with building the domestic infrastructure needed to correctly handle it (including not overselling recycling so we could get waste-to-energy plants as part of the mix).
It's basically why China stopped accepting "recycling" (aka trash): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_National_Sword
Are outsiders allowed to confirm the official numbers form China?
I live at the end of the Pearl River Delta and regularly cross it by boat and travel along the shoreline. There is not a great deal of surface-visible physical plastic trash floating out of the river. Especially additionally considering the huge number of people living here (~100M+ within 100km radius), it is very well collected and managed versus rivers in the developing world. None of that mud-mixed-with-plastic-refuse buildup you often see in, say, India, Thailand, or undredged canal systems.
It could have some small connection, but I would probably guess (based of of general trends) that it has to do with some regions or cities not yet having adequate waste disposal systems.
sschueller(9)
The number one cause of micro-plastic pollution near waterways is from car tires. Just another reason cars are such a detriment to our society.
Buses and bicycles do not have tires?
Per passenger, buses have far fewer tires. Bicycle tires wear down slower than car tires, and are smaller so there is less to wear anyway.
Possibly you’re correct about bikes, but I suspect buses and cars have similar tire wear per passenger mile, with only a slight advantage for buses. Also, rubber biodegrades. Brake dust and rail dust are also concerns.
> but I suspect buses and cars have similar tire wear per passenger mile, with only a slight advantage for buses.
Why do you suspect that? The amount of vehicle weight per passenger that those tires have to carry is significantly higher in a car than a bus.
Why do you suspect that? The amount of vehicle weight per passenger that those tires have to carry is significantly higher in a car than a bus.
The wear and tear is a function of weight and speed. It's also not linear.
Cars are also the backbone of our society.
As the article discusses, the main contributing factor is a lack of effective waste disposal systems, almost entirely in low and middle income countries. The US, for example contributes .25% of global ocean plastic emissions (not the 4.5% from all of NA, most of which is from Central America and the Caribbean). High income countries can help low income countries develop these systems through grants and subsidies.
"blame transfer" ? How about "put your trash in a trash system, not the river" instead of guilting out the readers here? In other news, local government takes money meant for trash disposal and uses it for other things.
There are also bad cultures that find it acceptable to just throw any trash into a river.
> There are also bad cultures that find it acceptable to just throw any trash into a river.
For thousands of years, Philippines culture was responsible for zero plastic waste being dumped into river and ocean systems. Food was grown organically, packaged and transported sustainably, and waste was managed to preserve ocean and river ecosystems.
What changed?
> The United States exercised formal colonial rule over the Philippines, its largest overseas colony, between 1899 and 1946. American economic and strategic interests in Asia and the Pacific were increasing in the late 1890s in the wake of an industrial depression and in the face of global, interimperial competition.
https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-...
For thousands of years, Philippines culture was responsible for zero plastic waste being dumped into river and ocean systems. Food was grown organically, packaged and transported sustainably, and waste was managed to preserve ocean and river ecosystems.
What changed?
> The United States exercised formal colonial rule over the Philippines, its largest overseas colony, between 1899 and 1946. American economic and strategic interests in Asia and the Pacific were increasing in the late 1890s in the wake of an industrial depression and in the face of global, interimperial competition.
https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-...
> For thousands of years, Philippines culture was responsible for zero plastic waste being dumped into river and ocean systems. [...]
> What changed?
The development of mass produced plastics in the 1940s-1950s; no one was throwing any significant quantity of plastic waste anywhere before then, so “thousands of years” of history are irrelevant.
> The United States exercised formal colonial rule over the Philippines, its largest overseas colony, between 1899 and 1946.
So...that ended just as mass produced plastics were becoming available anywhere, and wouldn't be directly relevant. If you want to argue that it produced cultural changes that directly affected how they local people reacted to mass plastic availability, you should make a specific argument, with evidence, about the changes it supposedly induced.
> What changed?
The development of mass produced plastics in the 1940s-1950s; no one was throwing any significant quantity of plastic waste anywhere before then, so “thousands of years” of history are irrelevant.
> The United States exercised formal colonial rule over the Philippines, its largest overseas colony, between 1899 and 1946.
So...that ended just as mass produced plastics were becoming available anywhere, and wouldn't be directly relevant. If you want to argue that it produced cultural changes that directly affected how they local people reacted to mass plastic availability, you should make a specific argument, with evidence, about the changes it supposedly induced.
> If you want to argue that it produced cultural changes that directly affected how they local people reacted to mass plastic availability
You're making that argument yourself in your own words.
> you should make a specific argument, with evidence, about the changes it supposedly induced.
I wouldn't argue that way. I would instead note two salient points.
1. Traditional Philippine food waste management involved disposing of food waste and packaging in rivers. That was environmentally sustainable when all food packaging was biodegradable e.g. banana leaves and coconut shells.
2. Whilst foreign companies introduced plastic packaging to the Philippines, nobody introduced a way to process plastic waste effectively, which is why we have this problem.
You're making that argument yourself in your own words.
> you should make a specific argument, with evidence, about the changes it supposedly induced.
I wouldn't argue that way. I would instead note two salient points.
1. Traditional Philippine food waste management involved disposing of food waste and packaging in rivers. That was environmentally sustainable when all food packaging was biodegradable e.g. banana leaves and coconut shells.
2. Whilst foreign companies introduced plastic packaging to the Philippines, nobody introduced a way to process plastic waste effectively, which is why we have this problem.
What does something that ended 75 years ago have to do with the culture today of dumping trash in rivers? I knew someone was going to find a way to blame the US.
> I knew someone was going to find a way to blame the US.
US corporations deserve great credit for inventing plastics which have enabled foods and beverages to be transported conveniently all over the world.
Fortunately for US corporations, this credit has already been realised through the enormous revenues that have accrued to the patent holders and trading companies which have been richly rewarded for the invention and production of plastics.
US corporations deserve great credit for inventing plastics which have enabled foods and beverages to be transported conveniently all over the world.
Fortunately for US corporations, this credit has already been realised through the enormous revenues that have accrued to the patent holders and trading companies which have been richly rewarded for the invention and production of plastics.
for several decades, the United States had a culture of "just throw it on the ground". it took concerted efforts to curb what we were doing to what we have now. it was a whole cultural shift. we're not quite there, but we've managed to make a huge change.
so, "bad cultures" are just misguided, and can change.
so, "bad cultures" are just misguided, and can change.
The article’s title is “Where does the plastic in our oceans come from?”, and HN lists it as “Ocean Plastic Emissions by Country”. Indeed, one section is titled “Which countries emit the most plastic to the ocean?”.
Don’t let any of that fool you. We never actually get a breakdown of contribution by country in the extensive article. I’m not sure why.
Don’t let any of that fool you. We never actually get a breakdown of contribution by country in the extensive article. I’m not sure why.
I don't think anyone is trying to fool you. The data is there for you to look at if you're interested.
Because the article is considered a “summary” of the raw data you can explore yourself, including the breakdown for each country.
The map interactive does provide that information if you roll over the countries.
The Ocean Cleanup Project is doing good work and could probably use some scaling up
https://theoceancleanup.com/updates/in-search-of-the-rivers-...
https://theoceancleanup.com/updates/in-search-of-the-rivers-...
It is infinitely more efficient to just not dump plastic in the ocean in the first place than it is pick it out of the ocean.
Which is why all these cleanup projects and bag bans are just silly unserious people. Anyone who actually cared should be pushing for improved waste management in the source countries. If it’s aid grants for better trash service or threats of tariffs for not improving things or whatever, but banning straws or picking up plastic in the ocean strikes as nothing but narcissistic public preening.
That's a pretty disparaging and uncompromising view.
Banning single-plastic use in removes millions of tons of plastic from the ending up in the sea. That is a net benefit for very little effort and inconvenience. It's not going to solve all problems and it's a low hanging fruit, but it's a start toward removing our dependence on single-use plastics.
Whatever level of plastic management we reach, there are already millions of tons of plastic in the sea to clean up. So efforts on that front are not in vain either. Again, they aren't going to fix the whole issue but they attempt to fix one part of it.
We don't have to tackle issues one at a time. People make efforts where they can. Even if it's only solving a few percent of the global issue. It's not posturing if it helps. No-one said each of these is the end-all of all solutions to the plastic waste problem.
These efforts don't distract from tackling the problem of waste disposal. Helping building waste infrastructures in countries like the Phillipines is first and foremost a political and policy problem, there needs to be a political will and a legislation framework to make it happen, then it's a money problem.
Banning single-plastic use in removes millions of tons of plastic from the ending up in the sea. That is a net benefit for very little effort and inconvenience. It's not going to solve all problems and it's a low hanging fruit, but it's a start toward removing our dependence on single-use plastics.
Whatever level of plastic management we reach, there are already millions of tons of plastic in the sea to clean up. So efforts on that front are not in vain either. Again, they aren't going to fix the whole issue but they attempt to fix one part of it.
We don't have to tackle issues one at a time. People make efforts where they can. Even if it's only solving a few percent of the global issue. It's not posturing if it helps. No-one said each of these is the end-all of all solutions to the plastic waste problem.
These efforts don't distract from tackling the problem of waste disposal. Helping building waste infrastructures in countries like the Phillipines is first and foremost a political and policy problem, there needs to be a political will and a legislation framework to make it happen, then it's a money problem.
> just silly unserious people.
The peanut gallery is in full force today.
It's really not necessary to insult people who are trying to make a difference. You could spend your time turning up your nose at the huge corporations producing the plastic products that they are jamming in to these markets, or you could turn up your nose at corrupt third world countries for having broken waste management strategies, or you could turn up your nose at people who throw their garbage in rivers...and you decide that the people you want to deride are...the people picking up garbage and pointing out the problem?
In truth, I've never met a narcissist picking up garbage. Never.
The peanut gallery is in full force today.
It's really not necessary to insult people who are trying to make a difference. You could spend your time turning up your nose at the huge corporations producing the plastic products that they are jamming in to these markets, or you could turn up your nose at corrupt third world countries for having broken waste management strategies, or you could turn up your nose at people who throw their garbage in rivers...and you decide that the people you want to deride are...the people picking up garbage and pointing out the problem?
In truth, I've never met a narcissist picking up garbage. Never.
Really I should just spend my money elsewhere than the Philippine food packaging companies? Or maybe I should vote in Malaysia to improve waste management? Petition my local Indian council to install waste collectors in my local river?
> In truth, I've never met a narcissist picking up garbage.
I didn't call them narcissist. I called the people who got on Twitter to let the world they know they support plastic straw bans because they care about the ocean, narcissists. And why do people feel the need to make up straw men to respond to? You can't find enough holes in what I said, so you make up something I didn't say? Why?
> In truth, I've never met a narcissist picking up garbage.
I didn't call them narcissist. I called the people who got on Twitter to let the world they know they support plastic straw bans because they care about the ocean, narcissists. And why do people feel the need to make up straw men to respond to? You can't find enough holes in what I said, so you make up something I didn't say? Why?
..or sifting it from the river before it enters the ocean. Is it the incentive for recycling is big enough for plastic to be recycled immediately after use, or no recycling centres. I remember recycling bottles and cans as a child for 5c each. This sounds like something that could be solved by somebody with enough capital investing in a recycling system / plants there. Bill / Elon / Jeff? Seems an extremely important issue we get solved, here on earth...
There is no such thing as plastic recycling as there is no use for second hand plastics. The best thing you can do is put it in a landfill. The Romans had landfills, there's no excuse for countries in the modern day that just toss trash in the river.
Indeed
Wow, growing up in India I always knew that the Mithi Nadi (ulhas) was incredibly polluted and trash filled. But, to see it at rank 3 is really eye opening.
There have been efforts over the last few decades to clean it up. But, Mumbai slums are situated on the river, and dump everything and anything into it. It would be nice to know if the Ulhas is mostly polluted with plastic upstream or at the mouth near Mumbai.
There have been efforts over the last few decades to clean it up. But, Mumbai slums are situated on the river, and dump everything and anything into it. It would be nice to know if the Ulhas is mostly polluted with plastic upstream or at the mouth near Mumbai.
You might be able to get answers in the "Figures and Data" tab of this page:
https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/18/eaaz5803
https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/18/eaaz5803
And to think that the EU made it mandatory for plastic bags to cost money, gravely inconveniencing every shopper... And my country only amounts to 0.02% of plastic waste in the ocean.
You can buy a bag for a few cents or bring a bag.
You’re living life on easy street if this is what you consider “gravely inconveniencing.”
You’re living life on easy street if this is what you consider “gravely inconveniencing.”
A few cents? More like 10-20% of a dollar tax in california.
Its like CRV tax (california redemption value) but there has never been redemption on bags.
Its like CRV tax (california redemption value) but there has never been redemption on bags.
Everything has to be read in context. This is gravely inconveniencing to the experience of shopping. Sorry I didn't get to work in the salt mines!
Still, it’s hard to imagine how one might ever consider such a small inconvenience “gravely inconveniencing” even in that very specific context. It’s such a small thing. I don’t think one has to have worked in the salt mines to think this.
Yeah, SUP bans don't do anything for the ocean. Investment in waste management solutions in low and middle income countries is far better for the environment, but most politicians are not terribly well informed.
The EU introduced that tax in 2002, the research in TFA is from 2021. Perhaps your country only amounts to 0.02%, at least in part, _because of_ the EU's plastic bag tax?
Gravely?? Are you joking?? Lying??
Yeah, let's just all sit back and carry on business as usual while pointing fingers at whoever is the worst offender at the moment. That sounds like a good idea.
I don’t know that I would consider not having a plastic bag a “grave” inconvenience.
Gravely inconveniencing, really? Adding 40 cents to your bill if you forgot your shopping bag is a grave inconvenience?
Actually yes, since some shops now only have paper bags which are expensive and break just by looking at them. If you forget to bring a bag from home you're in trouble, especially if your groceries are heavy and you're far from home - the bags are guaranteed to break. (This is Europe, so you're walking back, obviously)
If you forget to bring a bag from home, you'll just buy a new plastic bag and don't forget to bring it from home the next time. Problem solved.
I'm glad your life is so easy that this is riling you up
> If you forget to bring a bag from home you're in trouble
If you forget your keys you're in bigger trouble, so I still don't see your point.
Have we really come to the point where people carry a little supercomputer in their pockets at all time, but are unable to bring a bag when going shopping?
If you forget your keys you're in bigger trouble, so I still don't see your point.
Have we really come to the point where people carry a little supercomputer in their pockets at all time, but are unable to bring a bag when going shopping?
How is this not obvious? Things you do all the time aren’t forgotten. Things you do rarely are.
That said, “grave inconvenience” is really something. Not having plastic bags is absolutely ruining my life. Kids are crying. Wife is mad at me. Boss thinks I’m slacking. Dentist says I don’t floss. If we could have plastic bags back my life would be so much better.
That said, “grave inconvenience” is really something. Not having plastic bags is absolutely ruining my life. Kids are crying. Wife is mad at me. Boss thinks I’m slacking. Dentist says I don’t floss. If we could have plastic bags back my life would be so much better.
Here's how I solved this:
I keep a crate in the trunk of my car. After paying my groceries, I put them back in the shopping cart. I drive that to my car, put the groceries in the crate, and return the shopping cart.
No bags needed, and unloading at home is easier too.
I keep a crate in the trunk of my car. After paying my groceries, I put them back in the shopping cart. I drive that to my car, put the groceries in the crate, and return the shopping cart.
No bags needed, and unloading at home is easier too.
Paper bags are actually sturdier than plastic bags from my experience.
Handles are the culprit for paper bags I’ve used.
Lidl bags are extremely sturdy.
But honestly I have no sympathy for people who whines about lack of free plastic bags. Get over it.
Yeah, whoever thinks that adding 40 cents to your bill for forgetting your shopping bag is a "grave inconvenience" was raised a spoiled brat. Plain and simple. The bar for something to be a "grave inconvenience" isn't high if you've never known of real hardship, I guess.
I had read somewhere that a lot of waste(supposedly recyclable) from the US ends up in these poorer asian countries. These countries that actually don't have a lot invested in high efficient recycling systems.
But this article just shows the data where the water gets polluted from mismanaged waste. But not where this plastic comes from? I suppose it's not the full story then?
But this article just shows the data where the water gets polluted from mismanaged waste. But not where this plastic comes from? I suppose it's not the full story then?
I've been reading up on this stuff for a while. Most of the waste is actually single use plastics from products consumed in the emitting countries, that are disposed of improperly. For example, the Philippines has an issue with sachets.
Sources:
https://news.mongabay.com/2018/10/plastic-trash-from-the-sac...
https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/health/article/2168819/philip...
Sources:
https://news.mongabay.com/2018/10/plastic-trash-from-the-sac...
https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/health/article/2168819/philip...
[deleted]
Just look at the article. This article states that a large percentage of the waste comes from nets lines and ropes. That is absurd on the face of it. This isn't a fact-based exercise.
This quantifies the nonsense of the San Francisco plastic straw ban, which was motivated by stopping plastic ocean emissions.
And I still can't get a non melting straw.
And I still can't get a non melting straw.
On the other hand, it reveals a lot about people. I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone complain about non-plastic straws...even my 83 year-old uncle who lived through WW2...can't stop moaning about the tiniest inconvenience in his life. Like, what did people drink out of in the 1950s? Meanwhile I've picked up hundreds, maybe thousands of the bastards off beaches the world over. I picked up more than one today down by the river.
Yeah, you're right. Straws aren't the main problem. Of the two bags of litter I picked up today, there were only one or two. You could ban everything but straws and there'd still be so much plastic in the ocean that if you were forced to look at it, you'd vomit.
You're right. We're not going to fix plastic ocean trash by banning straws. We're going to have to fix plastic ocean trash by banning all one-time use plastics. For a start. And then ban the rest. And I guarantee you you're going to hate that.
Yeah, you're right. Straws aren't the main problem. Of the two bags of litter I picked up today, there were only one or two. You could ban everything but straws and there'd still be so much plastic in the ocean that if you were forced to look at it, you'd vomit.
You're right. We're not going to fix plastic ocean trash by banning straws. We're going to have to fix plastic ocean trash by banning all one-time use plastics. For a start. And then ban the rest. And I guarantee you you're going to hate that.
Who is "we"?
If it doesn't include Philippines, China and India, it won't do much for fixing plastic ocean trash.
Also, we can obviously keep using one-time use plastics, as long as we don't dump it in the ocean, and still fix the plastic ocean trash problem.
If it doesn't include Philippines, China and India, it won't do much for fixing plastic ocean trash.
Also, we can obviously keep using one-time use plastics, as long as we don't dump it in the ocean, and still fix the plastic ocean trash problem.
No, I get it. Everyone needs to do their part. But western countries pioneered plastic waste, and they need to lead the way on solving the problem. It's the same conversation as CO2 pollution. Clean up at home first and then help others get started down a better path. Otherwise it's a Mexican standoff with finger-pointing.
The data suggests western countries _are_ leading the way on plastic waste disposal. It's high time we started helping others, don't you think?
Coca-cola produces over 100 billion plastic bottles per year. Multinational corporations seem happy to keep cranking out items they know damn well will end up in the ocean. Because money.
Maybe India should also stop accepting “recycling” waste from western countries. Then the west can lead the way even better.
Western countries didn't pioneer dumping plastic waste into the ocean. By the time plastics came about, western countries already had well established waste management that doesn't pollute the oceans.
They should just all be PLA straws. They biodegrade, though somewhat slowly unless carefully composted, but even in the environment they’re just polymerized lactic acid and familiar enough to biology to likely be much much less impactful. (and specifically not filled with compounds that emulate hormones)
It is clear that to fix ocean plastic we don’t need to ban plastics, we don’t need to do feel good campaigns about environmentalism in america… we need to promote public service announcements about littering in a few target countries and subsidize the creation of sanitation industries around the world.
Making americans bring their own bags and drink through terrible straws makes a certain kind of person feel good because it feels like they’re doing something, a feeling which is somehow enhanced by the thing being somewhat unpleasant and unpopular. Feeling like you’re doing something and actually accomplishing something are entirely different.
It is clear that to fix ocean plastic we don’t need to ban plastics, we don’t need to do feel good campaigns about environmentalism in america… we need to promote public service announcements about littering in a few target countries and subsidize the creation of sanitation industries around the world.
Making americans bring their own bags and drink through terrible straws makes a certain kind of person feel good because it feels like they’re doing something, a feeling which is somehow enhanced by the thing being somewhat unpleasant and unpopular. Feeling like you’re doing something and actually accomplishing something are entirely different.
The reason straws are so annoying is because the replacemt really truly absolutely sucks. I’d rather have nothing than the paper straws that start composting before you’re halfway through your drink.
Starbucks solved it that way and it’s amazing. Their cold drinks now come with a lid that has a big hole you can drink out of like it’s a normal cup. No straws, no annoyance, everyone’s happy.
The problem are those stupid lids with a hole in the middle that make it literally impossible to drink without a straw. But the non-plastic straws aren’t up for the job.
So you’re stuck with a super annoying situation that just sucks.
Starbucks solved it that way and it’s amazing. Their cold drinks now come with a lid that has a big hole you can drink out of like it’s a normal cup. No straws, no annoyance, everyone’s happy.
The problem are those stupid lids with a hole in the middle that make it literally impossible to drink without a straw. But the non-plastic straws aren’t up for the job.
So you’re stuck with a super annoying situation that just sucks.
> We're going to have to fix plastic ocean trash by banning all one-time use plastics. For a start. And then ban the rest.
That would be it's own economic and ecological disaster. How many trees are you going to cut down and how much ore will you mine to make this happen? And given the considerable weight savings plastics bring, how much fuel will we burn to transport our substantially heavier goods in the dystopia you envision?
That would be it's own economic and ecological disaster. How many trees are you going to cut down and how much ore will you mine to make this happen? And given the considerable weight savings plastics bring, how much fuel will we burn to transport our substantially heavier goods in the dystopia you envision?
Oh, we're in a dystopia already. Spend a day picking up garbage off a beach. I'll take the balsa wood to-go boxes or whatever you're dreaming up there. It's a paradise compared to the hundreds of bags of garbage I've picked up over the years and the heartbreak I feel knowing how enormous and completely fucking irreversible the damage we've already done in the last 40 years is.
Pardon my bluntness, but if we had a better habit of not eating so many to-go meals and sat down and ate off a reusable plate with reusable utensils like all of humanity had to just 100 years ago, single-use plastic would have almost no reason to exist.
Pardon my bluntness, but if we had a better habit of not eating so many to-go meals and sat down and ate off a reusable plate with reusable utensils like all of humanity had to just 100 years ago, single-use plastic would have almost no reason to exist.
> I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone complain about non-plastic straws...even my 83 year-old uncle who lived through WW2...can't stop moaning about the tiniest inconvenience in his life.
Because it is obviously theatre to anyone with an ounce of intelligence and integrity. Another chance for unworldly Westerners to signal their grace without making real, substantial change.
Because it is obviously theatre to anyone with an ounce of intelligence and integrity. Another chance for unworldly Westerners to signal their grace without making real, substantial change.
From my own discussions and experiences, and anonymously agreed upon by some public health experts[0], the plastic bag ban (and other single use plastics) has served to create a significant health crisis among the homeless populations in the same cities that champion the ecological good. When you have a choice between taking a dump in the street (your living area) and taking a dump in a plastic bag (or using a plastic bag to pick it up some do for dogs), even a mind-addled addict would prefer the latter.
[0]: (note: ref near the end, but good read overall, if a poor source) https://www.statnews.com/2017/10/06/hepatitis-a-outbreak-san...
[0]: (note: ref near the end, but good read overall, if a poor source) https://www.statnews.com/2017/10/06/hepatitis-a-outbreak-san...
There are other ways to tackle this problem without focusing on single use plastics at grocery stores.
As I keep saying: some cities would rather see their sidewalks literally covered in feces rather than build public toilets.
Why even use a straw? Drink from the glass.
Plastic in the ocean is only ONE of many problems with plastic. Just because you don't throw your plastic in the ocean doesn't make plastic a good material. Fact is that it's made from petroleum resources, has a high carbon footprint, doesn't recycle well, and piles up in landfills.
That said, the straw ban is nonsense not because of this, but because they should ban goddamn plastic CUPS and plastic CONTAINERS first. I routinely get served a compostable straw with a petroleum-based plastic cup.
That said, the straw ban is nonsense not because of this, but because they should ban goddamn plastic CUPS and plastic CONTAINERS first. I routinely get served a compostable straw with a petroleum-based plastic cup.
Seaconspiracy on Netflix was very interesting. It mentioned straw ban was backed by plastic industry because it had minimal impact on their business but it made people feel good.
BYO metal or bamboo straw?
>BYO
1. I'm a man so I don't have a purse to put it in, thereby making carrying it around a pain
2. cleaning it probably uses more resources than making a new straw and disposing of it
1. I'm a man so I don't have a purse to put it in, thereby making carrying it around a pain
2. cleaning it probably uses more resources than making a new straw and disposing of it
I think the only true solution for this problem is normalizing shoulder bags for men.
Perks include:
1) Space for a straw or extra objects but conveniently small enough for day-to-day activities
2) A good range of available colours and tones to match formality
3) Useful for holding travel documentation and other objects at the airport
4) Fun couples activities with matching bags
Perks include:
1) Space for a straw or extra objects but conveniently small enough for day-to-day activities
2) A good range of available colours and tones to match formality
3) Useful for holding travel documentation and other objects at the airport
4) Fun couples activities with matching bags
How many straws do you have to not use to make up for the amount of plastic in a polyester man purse? Do you expect that number to be surpassed before the purse is discarded and replaced?
Why does the bag have to be made out of polyester?
Is the other typical material (leather) any better?
How many bags have you ever owned that weren't primarily made of a plastic fiber?
Perhaps the best solution is to weave the bags out of disposable straws for now.
Metal straw == a great way to puncture your throat
This is not logical to me.
So because you now see that SF is a smaller slice of the global pie of pollution than you expected, then SF should not have attempted to address the local problem?
So because you now see that SF is a smaller slice of the global pie of pollution than you expected, then SF should not have attempted to address the local problem?
We need to fix plastic use in the West, so that we can export the technology and solutions to the rest of the world. Same with fossil fuel use.
I can't imagine thinking that banning any wasteful products is a negative. Do you really need a straw? Bring your own if you do.
The ban is not negative; pretending it has lead to a meaningful reduction in plastic ocean waste is. I think the reason most people are negative to the ban is that a great deal of resources has been spent on something that tries to solve a minuscule problem (0.03% of plastic waste) while at the same time inconveniencing people with disabilities for example. These resources could have been allocated to for instance a small financial reward for turning in broken/abandoned fishing nets.
> a minuscule problem (0.03% of plastic waste)
That's one metric. Are you sure it's the best way to understand this question?
https://www.strawlessocean.org/faq
That's one metric. Are you sure it's the best way to understand this question?
https://www.strawlessocean.org/faq
Sure but I feel like it's just low hanging fruit which is why is so foregrounded
You're ignoring the costs of these bans. They are low hanging fruit, but they also have almost zero impact. At the same time, there is opportunity cost in political capital as well as resentment against environmental causes. It would be nice if that resentment at least came with some substantial improvement and not symbolic hollow victories.
Maybe we should just let it burn down if we're going to halt environmental progression on the basis that people will be too upset that they can't drink out of a small manufactures cylinder. Fuck me
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All you've done here is defined something to be "wasteful" if it has no positive value already, so by definition banning it is not a negative. The problem is that you haven't managed to argue why straws fall into that category.
If people are using them, then almost by definition people are finding value from them, so you have to be more careful than that (not to mention the administrative cost of the ban, but let's ignore that here).
Straws are a small enough thing that it's easy to be mindlessly dismissive by saying "bring your own", but that does not actually advance your side of the argument at all. You can see how absurd that argument is when applying it to other things -- why not ban wasteful drink bottles and cans? Just bring your own cup or bottle from home. Or ban the wasteful automobile, just walk or ride or catch a bus if you want to go somewhere.
Or looking at it another way -- straws are such a minuscule part of the plastic pollution problem that banning them really doesn't matter right? If you can handwave away their small inconsequential value, then I can handwave away their small inconsequential impact.
If people are using them, then almost by definition people are finding value from them, so you have to be more careful than that (not to mention the administrative cost of the ban, but let's ignore that here).
Straws are a small enough thing that it's easy to be mindlessly dismissive by saying "bring your own", but that does not actually advance your side of the argument at all. You can see how absurd that argument is when applying it to other things -- why not ban wasteful drink bottles and cans? Just bring your own cup or bottle from home. Or ban the wasteful automobile, just walk or ride or catch a bus if you want to go somewhere.
Or looking at it another way -- straws are such a minuscule part of the plastic pollution problem that banning them really doesn't matter right? If you can handwave away their small inconsequential value, then I can handwave away their small inconsequential impact.
> defined something to be "wasteful" if it has no positive value already, so by definition banning it is not a negative
not "by definition" really
not "by definition" really
Yes really, by qmmmur's definition.
Banning something is different from it not existing.
I mean yeah. In totally against banning single use cups and am totally pro public transport lol.
You didn't understand what I wrote.
I don't think you understand what you wrote. What specifically is your argument? That we shouldn't ban things because people use them and therefore find value? What does value even mean? You know there are countries with unpottablr water and you've decided to die on a hill about people finding value in plastic waste. Strange
My argument is specifically that you can't justify banning something simply because you personally define it as "wasteful" and assert it has no value in your opinion.
A large group of people have determined that it is wasteful and have therefore pushed to change it. I'm not a "lone thinker" in this regard. I can't imagine a world view in which you deem the disposal of straws, used entirely to suck liquids inside of probably an hour window, is not an easy problem to solve. I would also argue that such seemingly trivial changes are symptomatic of increasing reflection and movement towards the reduction of plastic, rather than as you paint it, some kind of virtue signalling exercise intended to piss off other people. At the end of the day, most people are not in control of global supply chains or have extenuating circumstances that inhibit their ability to contribute to the reduction of plastic waste beyond mitigating what they do and dont chuck out.
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So we've established that you didn't understand what I wrote.
> A large group of people have determined that it is wasteful and have therefore pushed to change it. I'm not a "lone thinker" in this regard. I can't imagine a world view in which you deem the disposal of straws, used entirely to suck liquids inside of probably an hour window, is not an easy problem to solve. I would also argue that such seemingly trivial changes are symptomatic of increasing reflection and movement towards the reduction of plastic, rather than as you paint it, some kind of virtue signalling exercise intended to piss off other people. At the end of the day, most people are not in control of global supply chains or have extenuating circumstances that inhibit their ability to contribute to the reduction of plastic waste beyond mitigating what they do and dont chuck out.
Logical fallacies. None of what you wrote addresses what I wrote or the flaws in your assertion.
> A large group of people have determined that it is wasteful and have therefore pushed to change it. I'm not a "lone thinker" in this regard. I can't imagine a world view in which you deem the disposal of straws, used entirely to suck liquids inside of probably an hour window, is not an easy problem to solve. I would also argue that such seemingly trivial changes are symptomatic of increasing reflection and movement towards the reduction of plastic, rather than as you paint it, some kind of virtue signalling exercise intended to piss off other people. At the end of the day, most people are not in control of global supply chains or have extenuating circumstances that inhibit their ability to contribute to the reduction of plastic waste beyond mitigating what they do and dont chuck out.
Logical fallacies. None of what you wrote addresses what I wrote or the flaws in your assertion.
Okay let me make it real simple for you. Here is a definition of wasteful.
> (of a person, action, or process) using or expending something of value carelessly, extravagantly, or to no purpose.
So yes. It is extravagant to use a straw and then throw it out and it is wasteful especially when perfectly viable alternatives are available that do not produce plastic debris.
> (of a person, action, or process) using or expending something of value carelessly, extravagantly, or to no purpose.
So yes. It is extravagant to use a straw and then throw it out and it is wasteful especially when perfectly viable alternatives are available that do not produce plastic debris.
You still don't understand what I said. Unfortunately I don't think I can make it much simpler for you.
Do you have an easy definition of what’s wasteful and what’s not wasteful? If you don’t, then what you are imagining is wholly arguable.
My problem with the straw ban is the ban itself. Why not give people a choice, incentivize different behavior? Just put paper straws next to plastic ones, with a feel-good message, and voila.
There is a limit of things you can ban before people will get tired of banning, and then you won't be able to ban things that might fully deserve it.
BTW, the world is running out of clean water, so how about we ban dishes in the restaurants to avoid wastefully washing them? Just bring your own, right?
There is a limit of things you can ban before people will get tired of banning, and then you won't be able to ban things that might fully deserve it.
BTW, the world is running out of clean water, so how about we ban dishes in the restaurants to avoid wastefully washing them? Just bring your own, right?
I guess those plastic straw bans in the US and Europe won't be solving plastic pollution in oceans.
Alas much plastic gets bundled up as `recycling` and brought up cheap and hands washed and pats on the back. Sadly that then goes onto some landfill in Africa or Asia and tada...blame shifted and politicians gets to say how well they are tackling things by being seen to be doing things.
Plastic recycling from Europe is being dumped in Asian waters - https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/06/200630103603.h...
Plastic recycling from Europe is being dumped in Asian waters - https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/06/200630103603.h...
So various political entities mandate recycling, but do not create a payment mechanism. Then they pay Asian countries to get it off the books.
No one claimed it would be “solving plastic pollution in oceans.” Fairly disingenuous statement.
Is this not misleading? I thought that most countries offload their plastic waste to regions in Asia (paying them to take it), so of course Asia comes off looking as the largest emitter.
You're assuming that the plastic that gets sold is the same plastic that ends up in the rivers. Do we know that's the case? And if so, how does it go from being "in the system" to being discarded into the environment? Why would they pay money for it, just to throw it in a river?
Asian importers pay for containers of clean, recyclable waste from the UK. When it arrives they find they've got a container full of general household waste, which is of no use for anything.
I don't know how common this is but there have been several UK companies prosecuted for it. I've also seen stories where British reporters have gone to Asia and documented piles of obviously British waste in local dumps. These stories crop up in the British media quite frequently.
I don't know how common this is but there have been several UK companies prosecuted for it. I've also seen stories where British reporters have gone to Asia and documented piles of obviously British waste in local dumps. These stories crop up in the British media quite frequently.
I wasn't trying to make an assumption - the report just didn't read how I expected.
And I'm not absolving them of responsibility, but the richest countries pay to offload plastic on them knowing pretty well there is no way to get rid of it besides tossing it. Those Asian regions that burn it have awful air quality issues.
Should these regions refuse money for our plastic? Probably - but this paints an incomplete picture.
And I'm not absolving them of responsibility, but the richest countries pay to offload plastic on them knowing pretty well there is no way to get rid of it besides tossing it. Those Asian regions that burn it have awful air quality issues.
Should these regions refuse money for our plastic? Probably - but this paints an incomplete picture.
Where Will Your Plastic Trash Go Now That China Doesn't Want It?
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/03/13/7025017...
Plastic garbage from Trader Joe's and an AARP card are peeking out of hillocks of plastic trash piling up in Indonesia.
It's a sign of a new global quandary: What should wealthy countries do with their plastic waste now that China no longer is buying it?
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/03/13/7025017...
Plastic garbage from Trader Joe's and an AARP card are peeking out of hillocks of plastic trash piling up in Indonesia.
It's a sign of a new global quandary: What should wealthy countries do with their plastic waste now that China no longer is buying it?
Not really. Most of this waste seems to be single-use, and if you read through the cited references, the primary factor seems to be the inability to manage waste plastics from locally consumed products. Rivers are tempting targets for waste disposal if you lack a good waste management service locally.
> Is this not misleading?
No.
> I thought that most countries offload their plastic waste to regions in Asia (paying them to take it), so of course Asia comes off looking as the largest emitter.
Why would that be the case? Asia's consumers - billions of them - are now the world's largest in terms of unit consumption/use/disposal of plastic.
I don't think anybody could miss the fact that China's consumer economy is now by far the world's largest in unit terms. And it's set to get quite larger yet. China has more plastic consumers than the US + EU combined at this point.
Just Indonesia + the Philippines = 380 million consumers. They buy, use and dispose of enormous amounts of plastic. These nations are not living in the 18th century, they have full access to plastic consumer goods/packaging, whether manufactured domestically or from China.
No.
> I thought that most countries offload their plastic waste to regions in Asia (paying them to take it), so of course Asia comes off looking as the largest emitter.
Why would that be the case? Asia's consumers - billions of them - are now the world's largest in terms of unit consumption/use/disposal of plastic.
I don't think anybody could miss the fact that China's consumer economy is now by far the world's largest in unit terms. And it's set to get quite larger yet. China has more plastic consumers than the US + EU combined at this point.
Just Indonesia + the Philippines = 380 million consumers. They buy, use and dispose of enormous amounts of plastic. These nations are not living in the 18th century, they have full access to plastic consumer goods/packaging, whether manufactured domestically or from China.
> To tackle plastic pollution we need to know where it’s coming from
So, where is it coming from?
TFA examined the last step - from river to ocean. But what is the source of all this plastic? Is it soda bottles, single use plastic bags, shrink wrap, structural plastic?
> It is estimated that 81% of ocean plastics come from Asian rivers. The Philippines alone contribute around one-third of the global total.
That's a start. We are becoming more informed.
What percentage of the ocean plastics are manufactured in Asia?
What percentage of the ocean plastics are manufactured in USA?
What percentage of the ocean plastics are manufactured in Europe?
What percentage of the ocean plastics are manufactured by the top 5 global food corporations?
The value of these questions is not to shift blame. It is to understand the system so we can target fixes.
The most informative question wasn't even raised in TFA.
Who profits from plastic waste?
So, where is it coming from?
TFA examined the last step - from river to ocean. But what is the source of all this plastic? Is it soda bottles, single use plastic bags, shrink wrap, structural plastic?
> It is estimated that 81% of ocean plastics come from Asian rivers. The Philippines alone contribute around one-third of the global total.
That's a start. We are becoming more informed.
What percentage of the ocean plastics are manufactured in Asia?
What percentage of the ocean plastics are manufactured in USA?
What percentage of the ocean plastics are manufactured in Europe?
What percentage of the ocean plastics are manufactured by the top 5 global food corporations?
The value of these questions is not to shift blame. It is to understand the system so we can target fixes.
The most informative question wasn't even raised in TFA.
Who profits from plastic waste?
I would argue that these are the wrong questions. As this article, and those papers referenced by the article point out, this has to do overwhelmingly with inadequate waste disposal systems. More interesting questions for solving the issue might be:
What types of items end up in the oceans?
Are they dumped legally or illegally?
What are the reasons that certain countries don't have the infrastructure in place to dispose of waste?
How can wealthier countries do their part in supporting countries who need to develop better waste management infrastructure?
I think that it is better to ask questions that lead us directly towards solutions that are actionable. The data strongly suggests that ineffective or nonexistent waste management is the root cause, so I think we should direct our questions towards solving that issue.
What types of items end up in the oceans?
Are they dumped legally or illegally?
What are the reasons that certain countries don't have the infrastructure in place to dispose of waste?
How can wealthier countries do their part in supporting countries who need to develop better waste management infrastructure?
I think that it is better to ask questions that lead us directly towards solutions that are actionable. The data strongly suggests that ineffective or nonexistent waste management is the root cause, so I think we should direct our questions towards solving that issue.
> I think that it is better to ask questions that lead us directly towards solutions that are actionable.
That will require money.
Who profits from producing the plastic in the first place?
The reason that question addresses your point is that a viable systemic fix would involve repurposing a percentage of the revenue towards waste management.
That will require money.
Who profits from producing the plastic in the first place?
The reason that question addresses your point is that a viable systemic fix would involve repurposing a percentage of the revenue towards waste management.
> Who profits from plastic waste?
I think this is a hard question. Lots of people want to say that America is because it is consuming a lot of plastic and then shipping it to Asian countries for recycling. But they pay for that shipping and service. I do think there's a problem if you sell the service of recycling and then just dump it in the ocean/rivers. It's clearly a "both" players are at fault, but there's a key difference. One player is offering a service and the other player isn't checking if that service is being done in the way it is being claimed to be done. I don't think these two things are equal when we consider "fault." This comes down to a question of incentives and where those align. This is also why typically in law we come down harder on the person offering a service in bad faith.
So no matter why Philippines is contributing one-third of the global total, we should be talking about and criticizing them. That doesn't mean we shouldn't also be criticizing others (we should) nor that we shouldn't raise awareness of bad business practices. But we shouldn't shift the blame. We distribute the blame.
I think this is a hard question. Lots of people want to say that America is because it is consuming a lot of plastic and then shipping it to Asian countries for recycling. But they pay for that shipping and service. I do think there's a problem if you sell the service of recycling and then just dump it in the ocean/rivers. It's clearly a "both" players are at fault, but there's a key difference. One player is offering a service and the other player isn't checking if that service is being done in the way it is being claimed to be done. I don't think these two things are equal when we consider "fault." This comes down to a question of incentives and where those align. This is also why typically in law we come down harder on the person offering a service in bad faith.
So no matter why Philippines is contributing one-third of the global total, we should be talking about and criticizing them. That doesn't mean we shouldn't also be criticizing others (we should) nor that we shouldn't raise awareness of bad business practices. But we shouldn't shift the blame. We distribute the blame.
I'm not sure it's a question of anyone profiting from waste, it's more that dealing with waste correctly is a cost. Developed countries have comprehensive legislation around waste management that obliges municipalities to deal with it correctly (e.g. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:31...)
> But what is the source of all this plastic? Is it soda bottles, single use plastic bags, shrink wrap, structural plastic?
Stuff that washes out of rivers is almost all single-use containers like soda/water bottles, bottle caps, food containers, chip bags, consumer items from shampoo to mouthwash to toothpaste, toothbrushes, flip flops, combs, lighters, straws, toys, balls, cleaning products, oil cans, drums, tobacco tins, tupperware, disposable utensils, paddles, gas cans, pill bottles, syringes, milk crates.
Basically, if it's made out of plastic--doesn't matter the use, the lifetime--it ends up in the river and then the ocean.
Commercial fishing produces tons of discarded nets. I've seen an estimate that over half of ocean garbage is nets. I don't have a habit of trawling the deep ocean, so I can't confirm that. But I pick up beaches a lot and from volume, it's almost all consumer food items. Soda bottles in particular. It gives you a picture of what most people eat and drink. We're a bunch of sick monkeys from what I gather.
Stuff that washes out of rivers is almost all single-use containers like soda/water bottles, bottle caps, food containers, chip bags, consumer items from shampoo to mouthwash to toothpaste, toothbrushes, flip flops, combs, lighters, straws, toys, balls, cleaning products, oil cans, drums, tobacco tins, tupperware, disposable utensils, paddles, gas cans, pill bottles, syringes, milk crates.
Basically, if it's made out of plastic--doesn't matter the use, the lifetime--it ends up in the river and then the ocean.
Commercial fishing produces tons of discarded nets. I've seen an estimate that over half of ocean garbage is nets. I don't have a habit of trawling the deep ocean, so I can't confirm that. But I pick up beaches a lot and from volume, it's almost all consumer food items. Soda bottles in particular. It gives you a picture of what most people eat and drink. We're a bunch of sick monkeys from what I gather.
> Basically, if it's made out of plastic--doesn't matter the use, the lifetime--it ends up in the river and then the ocean.
I'll also say that what you find washing up on shore or down river is filtered out by a number of factors. Not all plastics are buoyant (i.e. less dense than water). Most plastic materials are actually really close to neutral, and some are slightly denser than water. That means that containers that get punctured and eventually fill up will simply sink. If those materials end up in surf breaks they will get obliterated and turned into a microplastic dust that will can still be suspended in the liquid. So you won't find them washing up (as much). The lighter plastics that are buoyant will tend to washed up onto shore just by wind and wave action. So the ocean sorts and filters things by their size and density. What you see on shore isn't what's out there in the deep ocean.
Case in point: plastic bottles are usually PET, which is denser than water. They will actually sink if they are punctured or without cap. The ones you find usually have a cap on. But the caps are polypropelene and they are generally less dense than water, so they float. That's why you'll always find a zillion more bottle caps and almost never find a plastic bottle without a cap on it, at least from wash up.
Makes you realize where all those damn missing bottles are. The ocean floor is fucked.
I'll also say that what you find washing up on shore or down river is filtered out by a number of factors. Not all plastics are buoyant (i.e. less dense than water). Most plastic materials are actually really close to neutral, and some are slightly denser than water. That means that containers that get punctured and eventually fill up will simply sink. If those materials end up in surf breaks they will get obliterated and turned into a microplastic dust that will can still be suspended in the liquid. So you won't find them washing up (as much). The lighter plastics that are buoyant will tend to washed up onto shore just by wind and wave action. So the ocean sorts and filters things by their size and density. What you see on shore isn't what's out there in the deep ocean.
Case in point: plastic bottles are usually PET, which is denser than water. They will actually sink if they are punctured or without cap. The ones you find usually have a cap on. But the caps are polypropelene and they are generally less dense than water, so they float. That's why you'll always find a zillion more bottle caps and almost never find a plastic bottle without a cap on it, at least from wash up.
Makes you realize where all those damn missing bottles are. The ocean floor is fucked.
From experiences traveling I would also guess the packaging to content ratio is a lot worse in low income countries. Southeast Asia is littered with small shops selling snacks, and they mostly come in very small packages to be affordable (for a typical example see [1]). In Indonesia "gelas" (glass) is a popular packaging for drinking water, a yogurt cup like clear plastic packaging that contains just 220 ml water. It's empty after a few minutes, and the beaches and rivers are full of empty cups.
[1] https://www.alamy.com/portrait-of-a-man-amid-his-goods-in-a-...
[1] https://www.alamy.com/portrait-of-a-man-amid-his-goods-in-a-...
Manufactured is probably less important than where it is consumed and disposed of.
We know the Philippines take in recycling from the rest of the world as they had a diplomatic spat with Canada over being send household waste rather than recyclables.
https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/trash-talk-phi...
The data point that the Yangtze, Xi, and Huangpu rivers are no longer the biggest sources can be simply attributed to China banning the import of recyclable plastic; it now likely goes to the Philippines and Malaysia instead.
We know the Philippines take in recycling from the rest of the world as they had a diplomatic spat with Canada over being send household waste rather than recyclables.
https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/trash-talk-phi...
The data point that the Yangtze, Xi, and Huangpu rivers are no longer the biggest sources can be simply attributed to China banning the import of recyclable plastic; it now likely goes to the Philippines and Malaysia instead.
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Small leap - corporations that sell goods packaged in single-use plastic.
Once they sell you something wrapped in minimal cost packaging, they socialize the problem. Rinse and repeat.
Once they sell you something wrapped in minimal cost packaging, they socialize the problem. Rinse and repeat.
They estimate that a 1000 rivers contribute 80% of the _riverine_ plastic pollution.
But how much of the total in the oceans is riverine versus 'oceanic'? What is the total contribution of maritime activity (freight, fishing, cruises, recreational, military) to a non-riverine/oceanic plastic?
But how much of the total in the oceans is riverine versus 'oceanic'? What is the total contribution of maritime activity (freight, fishing, cruises, recreational, military) to a non-riverine/oceanic plastic?
From what I've seen, the only oceanic activities that add much is fishing, which seems to be currently estimated to produce around 20% of global oceanic plastic waste. I believe the link may have mentioned this. If not, some of the references at the bottom will.
I looked through the interactive data and the paper this references as a source, it always refers to contributions as a percentage of total 'riverine' plastic. But never quantifies how much it is in relation to the remaining non-riverine contributions?
IF you want the raw numbers, check out the references at the bottom, particularly the "top" reference, published in 2021, which is where the raw data is.
It's just so easy: first world countries just have that "awesome" recycling systems. Their plastic just ends on ships full of plastic waste. China refuses to accept it, so we sell it it to other countries in Asia, which seemingly can't handle it anymore and just dumps it into the ocean. End.
That isn't the case based on the data. Fishing nets aside (which are definitely from predominately Chinese-owned fleets), much of this is actually not from the recycling systems, but is instead single use plastics, especially since China stopped accepting recycling from overseas.
If by "first world" you mean the EU, they now prohibit the export of plastic waste outside OECD[1].
[1]: https://ec.europa.eu/environment/news/plastic-waste-shipment...
[1]: https://ec.europa.eu/environment/news/plastic-waste-shipment...
Maybe they just ship it to USA which ships it to poor countries?
that's not true
EU have great recycling industry, none of the waste leave the continent, it's all reused or sold(to be reused), there is no waste at all
EU have great recycling industry, none of the waste leave the continent, it's all reused or sold(to be reused), there is no waste at all
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If you ever need more evidence the Environmental Industrial Complex is evil. You can already see the pre-planed patterns being used to make sure blame is placed back on you in the comments. Along with the pre existing day in day out controls of banning plastic things in your lives, the consistent control of you is important.
I really liked Reddit's trash bag meme in the end. It actually seemed to get a wider reach than I would have expected. Developing countries do also have status, it might be Versace but it also can be clean waterways, you just need to tie it back to locals who in turn can push governance.
I really liked Reddit's trash bag meme in the end. It actually seemed to get a wider reach than I would have expected. Developing countries do also have status, it might be Versace but it also can be clean waterways, you just need to tie it back to locals who in turn can push governance.
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If we want to create a chart by country that is actually fair we need to normalize for GDP per capita and population. This is a very crude way to single out countries based on incomplete data.
I'd like to see the list of worst offender countries that can do something about preventing plastic pollution, but aren't doing as much.
How is it helpful to know that India is one of the highest polluting countries when half a billion people live in abject poverty?
I'd like to see the list of worst offender countries that can do something about preventing plastic pollution, but aren't doing as much.
How is it helpful to know that India is one of the highest polluting countries when half a billion people live in abject poverty?
I think that per-capita normalization in particular is interesting. I have a spreadsheet where I did that, and the Philippines stands out even more then, as does Brazil. GDP is a bad normalization factor here, as the trend is weird. High income countries have very low emissions in general. Low income countries sometimes have high per capita emissions, but not usually. Middle income countries are the most likely to be high emitters, as they are most likely to be consuming large amounts of plastic without having developed the infrastructure to process the waste.
Are you proposing some inverse scale or what?
When it comes to emissions, poor countries are generally way lower than wealthy countries per capita. If we readjusted these charts to be plastic pollution per dollar, the Philippines would be several orders of magnitude higher than anywhere in the west.
When it comes to emissions, poor countries are generally way lower than wealthy countries per capita. If we readjusted these charts to be plastic pollution per dollar, the Philippines would be several orders of magnitude higher than anywhere in the west.
No, use this formula:
GDP x pollution / populationI recently visited some manufacturers of high velocity polymer production lines. Their major markets were all Southeast Asia. That equipment should be outlawed. Regulation has to take the lead.
Not familiar with that, and Google isn't being helpful. What are they exactly?
Great video on the topic (& silliness of the plastic straw ban) https://youtu.be/ysGRZ1nRZQ4
Seven of the top ten rivers are in the Philippines. Two are in India, and one in Malaysia. The Pasig River in the Philippines alone accounts for 6.4% of global river plastics. This paints a very different picture to earlier studies where it was Asia’s largest rivers – the Yangtze, Xi, and Huangpu rivers in China, and Ganges in India – that were dominant."