On the link between great thinking and obsessive walking(lithub.com)
lithub.com
On the link between great thinking and obsessive walking
https://lithub.com/on-the-link-between-great-thinking-and-obsessive-walking/
237 comments
I love walking and there are many parks next to where I live. However I am never able to fully enjoy it or indulge in any longer thinking activities as most of the time I'll be interrupted by either elderly people asking me "to go back where I came from" or random ID checks by undercover police. This happened a lot (5x times) over the last year when I decide to go and walk in a park, once even during an online call with my team. I live in a medium sized city in Germany and come from North Africa / France and it might show a bit too much.
As a mitigation I once seriously considered changing how I look by for example dressing more like a dad or walking the neighbors dog as an alibi for being "normal". Maybe it would have interested the old ladies too, who knows.
For the time being I'll keep at walking on streets or inside the city as it's less strange to see foreigners there. Can't wait to have my private forest :')
Interesting post, when I worked in Vienna I had a guy who was from Nigeria on my team, his dad was a diplomat to the UN, I believe. One day he told me how long it took him to walk back and forth to work, but it didn’t make sense it took that long. He said because he was African the cops in certain districts stopped him every day to search him, claiming he was a drug dealer and basically just to harass him. So he took the extra time to avoid that district. What an eye opening conversation, to see that racism really does show it’s ugly little face everywhere, even in countries that aren’t really known for it. He was well dressed and worked in tech, mental gymnastics would be required to assume he was slanging drugs.
It's not a racism, it's a reasonable precaution.
Why reasonable? The guy was stopped just because being black
nah, its was pretty clear racism. he was well dressed and had absolutely nothing suspicious about him(he even carried a diplomatic passport) the only thing different about him or I was his skin color and i walked through that same area many times, all hours of the day, wasted, and never once got stopped.
I would like to encourage you to make your experience (semi-)public in your local community. In times of campaigning, talk to people at campaign booths. Tell the members of the city/local council of different parties about it. Go to the mayor's public office hours.
And look for a group of people who want to something about it. There are also a large number of Germans who find the racist discrimination by the police scandalous and think that it is high time to do something about it. Best not individually, but collectively.
Then attitudes can change, even in conservative circles. I come from a place that recently elected a mayor with a Turkish background who was supported by the conservative party (CDU). Something like this would hardly have been conceivable twenty years ago, but I hope that it will now become the norm.
And look for a group of people who want to something about it. There are also a large number of Germans who find the racist discrimination by the police scandalous and think that it is high time to do something about it. Best not individually, but collectively.
Then attitudes can change, even in conservative circles. I come from a place that recently elected a mayor with a Turkish background who was supported by the conservative party (CDU). Something like this would hardly have been conceivable twenty years ago, but I hope that it will now become the norm.
A friend of mine who is white also was checked by the police a lot (in Germany), simply because he had a certain jacket that was apparently associated with drug dealers or trouble makers (checks can include anal probes for hidden drugs, apparently).
So maybe dressing for the occasion could work. Sorry for your ordeal. You'd think police would know you after the umpteenth check.
So maybe dressing for the occasion could work. Sorry for your ordeal. You'd think police would know you after the umpteenth check.
This advice is warm spirited and practical and I endorse taking actions to make oneself safer. But, also, it's disgusting that anyone should be harassed by police and feel unsafe walking where they live. That is a terrible status quo and the GP deserves better, full stop.
On the one hand I agree, on the other hand it is a fact of nature that clothing displays a message. I think demands that clothes should not be significant are simply unrealistic.
I think even if police suspect somebody, they should still treat them with respect, though. That is the real issue.
You can not ask the police to never suspect anybody - that would make their jobs impossible and ridiculous.
I think even if police suspect somebody, they should still treat them with respect, though. That is the real issue.
You can not ask the police to never suspect anybody - that would make their jobs impossible and ridiculous.
I used to walk in a park every night at around midnight, in a big city with tons of police gang units. Not once was I ever approached by anyone. It was peaceful every time, without exception.
That changed when the police started driving their massive SUVs on the park path after 11pm to make sure nobody was in the park. The first time they did it, they argued that the park was closed, though there were no signs saying the park was closed. It turned into a big verbal argument but thankfully it didn't escalate badly. That night I looked up the city code and found that if there's no gate, then the law allows me to walk to the end of the park. I went to the police station to complain, and was told that I shouldn't worry about it because they're not trying to get "people like me".
But still, it happened again, and the cop basically told me "we're going to keep doing this until you stop". So, while the cop wasn't exactly disrespectful, he was wrong about the law in a way that manifested no differently from persistent harassment. They're just trolling for anything illegal on a default position of wronghood.
You're asking the wrong questions.
That changed when the police started driving their massive SUVs on the park path after 11pm to make sure nobody was in the park. The first time they did it, they argued that the park was closed, though there were no signs saying the park was closed. It turned into a big verbal argument but thankfully it didn't escalate badly. That night I looked up the city code and found that if there's no gate, then the law allows me to walk to the end of the park. I went to the police station to complain, and was told that I shouldn't worry about it because they're not trying to get "people like me".
But still, it happened again, and the cop basically told me "we're going to keep doing this until you stop". So, while the cop wasn't exactly disrespectful, he was wrong about the law in a way that manifested no differently from persistent harassment. They're just trolling for anything illegal on a default position of wronghood.
You're asking the wrong questions.
I wonder if Corona was part of the issue. There were a lot of weird rules about staying in parks during the last 1.5 years. At some point, people were allowed to walk, but not to stop or sit down, for example. There were quite a few ugly scenes with police trying to evict people from parks.
This happened a year and a half before corona.
Really, I think we should sincerely and earnestly question what problem the police are presumed to solve. The most useful functions they serve in my area are to help direct traffic during construction, for which they absolutely do not need weapons. Otherwise the idea is that we will be safer if a handful of armed people drive around at their whim staring at pedestrians. They can't go back in time, nor do their methods demonstrate any hope of preventing anything. What do they do? edit: I should add, for anyone wondering what my positive contribution to this is, that the idea of a community taking measures to keep itself safe and peaceful is not a problem. But also that isn't what police do in theory or practice.
I suppose most of it is about drug and gang crimes. Drugs are of course debatable.
Here in Berlin we have parks taken over by drug dealers and people don't feel safe. What is the solution? I don't know. Berlin's government responded by giving the drug dealers designated areas for drug dealing. I rather suspect they rely on those dealers for their personal supplies.
Here in Berlin we have parks taken over by drug dealers and people don't feel safe. What is the solution? I don't know. Berlin's government responded by giving the drug dealers designated areas for drug dealing. I rather suspect they rely on those dealers for their personal supplies.
Whatever it is, it demonstrably isn't targeted harassment of the people already in the throes of addiction, poverty, etc. Drugs result in violence because they are illegal, not the other way around. Portugal is oft cited but for good reason.
I know what you mean, but I would think it's also racist a lot of times. I know of a case where a friend who is german, born in Germany, just that one of the parents is an immigrant. He has a C-level job at a medium sized company and he was stopped together with a colleague while going to have lunch, while dressed as someone at that level would dress, because some old lady said that some foreign looking people were acting suspiciously (it wasn't them). They put them through some humiliating experiences, not believing they work where they work and harassing them.
In the same time I also have some "hacker" type friends that were constantly being stopped by the police, even though they were white, but they just have a questionable fashion taste compared to the general population.
In the same time I also have some "hacker" type friends that were constantly being stopped by the police, even though they were white, but they just have a questionable fashion taste compared to the general population.
Sure there definitely can be racist elements, just wondering if perhaps at least they could be mitigated by dressing in a certain way.
That's not meant to justify the behaviour of the police, just to find a short term solution for being able to take walks.
That's not meant to justify the behaviour of the police, just to find a short term solution for being able to take walks.
Goodness gracious. I'm staying the hell out of Germany. That would even be extreme in the US
That was heartbreaking to read. I’m sorry. It really surprised me when I read Germany. Shame on those people and the politicians who allow police to harass you. Shame on them!
I was also very surprised when I read that it was in Germany.
When it comes to police checks, it is important to know your rights: https://anwaltauskunft.de/magazin/gesellschaft/strafrecht-po... The police is not allowed to discriminate against you just because you look foreign. Always demand that they tell you why you were stopped and that they show their badge.
When it comes to racists, I personally would reply with irony and humor to make them look silly. But ignoring them can also be a viable strategy.
When it comes to police checks, it is important to know your rights: https://anwaltauskunft.de/magazin/gesellschaft/strafrecht-po... The police is not allowed to discriminate against you just because you look foreign. Always demand that they tell you why you were stopped and that they show their badge.
When it comes to racists, I personally would reply with irony and humor to make them look silly. But ignoring them can also be a viable strategy.
Police doesn't care. It's also illegal to discriminate and you can technically call the police when people do it, but they either don't come or will question you instead. "What did you do that they would do this".
And don't let anyone fool you into thinking that this is an eastern Germany problem. I grew up in one of the largest cities in the West, don't come from africa and have been told to go back where I came from plenty of times(which is actually amusing considering my background), have been assaulted by security people, peppersprayed by elderly men, etc.
There are also some EU laws that actually make the random checks somewhat legal.
Don't forget that Germany is the place that happily called for solidarity with BLM movement by the same people that would call Chinese "ching chang chung" on national television. Sure they don't shoot you, but they will make sure you have as little upward mobility as possible.
A lot of Africans that I know, take the University education from Germany and then move the US or Canada when they get the chance. You will rarely see any people of colour in leadership positions in Germany, heck there are hardly even eastern Germans in leadership positions in publicly listed German companies.
As much as I dislike a lot of things about the US at least in the professional sense you are treated with respect if you're good at what you do.
EDIT: oh and if you want to see what Bavarian police thinks of immigrants maybe took a look at some of the drawings in the police calendar.
https://taz.de/picture/224461/948/gdp_kalender2.jpg
https://www.augsburger-allgemeine.de/img/incoming/crop190229...
And don't let anyone fool you into thinking that this is an eastern Germany problem. I grew up in one of the largest cities in the West, don't come from africa and have been told to go back where I came from plenty of times(which is actually amusing considering my background), have been assaulted by security people, peppersprayed by elderly men, etc.
There are also some EU laws that actually make the random checks somewhat legal.
Don't forget that Germany is the place that happily called for solidarity with BLM movement by the same people that would call Chinese "ching chang chung" on national television. Sure they don't shoot you, but they will make sure you have as little upward mobility as possible.
A lot of Africans that I know, take the University education from Germany and then move the US or Canada when they get the chance. You will rarely see any people of colour in leadership positions in Germany, heck there are hardly even eastern Germans in leadership positions in publicly listed German companies.
As much as I dislike a lot of things about the US at least in the professional sense you are treated with respect if you're good at what you do.
EDIT: oh and if you want to see what Bavarian police thinks of immigrants maybe took a look at some of the drawings in the police calendar.
https://taz.de/picture/224461/948/gdp_kalender2.jpg
https://www.augsburger-allgemeine.de/img/incoming/crop190229...
Eastern Germany is very racist. I'm white and I repeatedly got "the looks" when I spoke Polish on a trip there.
Not like Poland is better, but somehow people don't expect it in Germany.
Not like Poland is better, but somehow people don't expect it in Germany.
I think it depends entirely on where you are in Germany, like everywhere you have more tolerant places and more intolerant places. Curiously the places with the least foreigners are the most xenophobic ones and vice versa.
> Curiously the places with the least foreigners are the most xenophobic ones and vice versa.
That's actually the standard. It's easy to be xenophobic when someone has very little exposure to other cultures. Once they get exposed over a long period of time, people realise that they are just people too.
That's actually the standard. It's easy to be xenophobic when someone has very little exposure to other cultures. Once they get exposed over a long period of time, people realise that they are just people too.
It’s also easy to be tolerant towards someone you don’t have to interact with. Once you get exposed to other cultures you realize that they are different.
I guess the realisation we're talking about is going from thinking "they eat human babies" to "they drink different types of tea".
I would say that is more like different cultures have different values:
Different ways of treating women, different ways of treating animals, different ways of treating the ambient, different ways of looking at work, different ways of looking at state, different ways of looking at religion, different ways of looking at morals, different ways of looking at neighbors, different ways of looking at property, different ways of looking at mating (...) While elites from any culture may be open minded and flexible, the average individual is not.
Elites may thrive in a multicultural society but the other incumbents don't. It's not surprising when they idolize any politician that respect them.
Different ways of treating women, different ways of treating animals, different ways of treating the ambient, different ways of looking at work, different ways of looking at state, different ways of looking at religion, different ways of looking at morals, different ways of looking at neighbors, different ways of looking at property, different ways of looking at mating (...) While elites from any culture may be open minded and flexible, the average individual is not.
Elites may thrive in a multicultural society but the other incumbents don't. It's not surprising when they idolize any politician that respect them.
I agree with you in part, particularly with why there has been a backlash against multiculturalism. Also with the reality that different cultures tend to have different views to a wide range of issues.
But I’m not sure what you mean by elite. Donald Trump and the whole modern Republican Party are the elites, and I wouldn’t describe them as flexible and open-minded.
But I’m not sure what you mean by elite. Donald Trump and the whole modern Republican Party are the elites, and I wouldn’t describe them as flexible and open-minded.
Exactly. When your main exposure to other cultures is via tabloid media versions of those cultures, it's not surprising that you believe strange things about them.
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I thought I was hurt a lot by casually racist comments passed by coworkers in a small, relatively liberal town in the US Midwest.
Then I read about your experiences and count myself lucky. I can say nothing other than, I hope things get better over time.
Then I read about your experiences and count myself lucky. I can say nothing other than, I hope things get better over time.
That is not a good comparison. It's not ok to pass casual racist comments.
Casual racists comments and jokes fall into the micro-aggression category.
Next time, I hope you build up the courage to tell your aggressors that you are not ok with racist comments.
Casual racists comments and jokes fall into the micro-aggression category.
Next time, I hope you build up the courage to tell your aggressors that you are not ok with racist comments.
> That is not a good comparison. It's not ok to pass casual racist comments.
You are right. It's not, and I didn't mean to diminish my experience, only amplify how the OP's seemed much worse.
> Next time, I hope you build up the courage to tell your aggressors that you are not ok with racist comments.
I did, a few years ago! I also left that job and warn other minority groups vocally about the hostile environment there.
You are right. It's not, and I didn't mean to diminish my experience, only amplify how the OP's seemed much worse.
> Next time, I hope you build up the courage to tell your aggressors that you are not ok with racist comments.
I did, a few years ago! I also left that job and warn other minority groups vocally about the hostile environment there.
A workaround which could work for regular people not bothering you would be using headphones.
[deleted]
I had exactly the same experience while travelling in Morocco. Random ID checks by police and people bothering me all the time. And I'm male..
Unfortunately comments like mine (and yours) don't make things better. Possibly they make things worse.
Unfortunately comments like mine (and yours) don't make things better. Possibly they make things worse.
That must absolutely suck. I’m sorry you have to deal with that.
That sucks. This kind of behavior should be monitored and have consequences till it stops.
What's the name of the city?
It shouldn't have to be this way, but try wearing sport clothing and make it a light jog for extra health points.
And by that I mean actual sports clothing, not the archetypical tight Adidas tracksuit that the average European troublemaker wears.
And by that I mean actual sports clothing, not the archetypical tight Adidas tracksuit that the average European troublemaker wears.
Oh, the irony....
Where's the irony? The bias is there whether you like it or not.
Never have I ever been harassed while wearing sports or hiking clothing, including accidental trespassing in countries where I barely spoke the language. Can't say the same about the outfit I mentioned, while doing nothing wrong.
The fact that the Adidas tracksuit and the tiny bag are the closest thing to the official uniform of a drug dealer in much of Western Europe became apparent really quick.
Never have I ever been harassed while wearing sports or hiking clothing, including accidental trespassing in countries where I barely spoke the language. Can't say the same about the outfit I mentioned, while doing nothing wrong.
The fact that the Adidas tracksuit and the tiny bag are the closest thing to the official uniform of a drug dealer in much of Western Europe became apparent really quick.
> Where's the irony?...Never have I ever been harassed while wearing sports or hiking clothing, including accidental trespassing in countries where I barely spoke the language. Can't say the same about the outfit I mentioned, while doing nothing wrong.
I think the OP is likely referring to the recent incident [1] in Georgia in the US where a black man was chased down and killed while he was jogging on the street in, guess what, T-shirt and shorts.
I am aware that your recommendation is possibly about Germany. It's still ironic, and in my opinion your recommendation is ineffective.
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[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ahmaud_Arbery
I think the OP is likely referring to the recent incident [1] in Georgia in the US where a black man was chased down and killed while he was jogging on the street in, guess what, T-shirt and shorts.
I am aware that your recommendation is possibly about Germany. It's still ironic, and in my opinion your recommendation is ineffective.
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[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ahmaud_Arbery
Yeah, we're talking Europe in this thread though. Nobody ever gets shot while jogging, even less so by another civilian. Gun homicide and killed by cop deaths are orders of magnitude lower.
But yeah I should have gauged my comment towards a mostly US-centric readership.
But yeah I should have gauged my comment towards a mostly US-centric readership.
[deleted]
Your problem is not that you are North African, but rather that you are living in an area controlled by a group of people who feel that this is a smart policy to have, which of course it is not.
Come to the USA-- for all of our problems, you can at least walk in a park without encountering police.
Come to the USA-- for all of our problems, you can at least walk in a park without encountering police.
As a person who walked 8/15 hours for two months straight I can relate to most of the statements written by the author. I believe that listening to music or other recordings takes away from the experience and the mental gains that walking provides, and this is why I skip the headphones during my adventures.
I can attest that after 10 days of continuous autonomous movement the mind switches to a "primordial" state that, as a non academic, I believe can be very easily attributable to our nomadic, hunter-gatherer past.
Attention gets sharper, acumen rings free, the range of senses expands, creative impulses flourish and it's easier to perform tasks in unexpectedly smart ways.
I suggest those who would like to give it a try embark on a walking adventure that is at least two weeks long, either on pilgrimage routes (which offer great views and allow one to save money thanks to the hospitality options available) like the Camino de Santiago de Compostela / Fatima or long trails such as the Appalachian Trail.
I can attest that after 10 days of continuous autonomous movement the mind switches to a "primordial" state that, as a non academic, I believe can be very easily attributable to our nomadic, hunter-gatherer past.
Attention gets sharper, acumen rings free, the range of senses expands, creative impulses flourish and it's easier to perform tasks in unexpectedly smart ways.
I suggest those who would like to give it a try embark on a walking adventure that is at least two weeks long, either on pilgrimage routes (which offer great views and allow one to save money thanks to the hospitality options available) like the Camino de Santiago de Compostela / Fatima or long trails such as the Appalachian Trail.
Did you experience mental breakdowns of any kind while you were walking?
None whatsoever aside from the usual post-adventure depression.
I've met several persons lost on pilgrimage routes due to mental breakdowns. It's a know problem, people find happiness and an alternative life during a pilgrimage and keep on walking the routes back and forth through Europe until they run out of money and then become homeless. At the beginning of the French route towards Santiago de Compostela you might still find some mental health counseling offices.
I've met several persons lost on pilgrimage routes due to mental breakdowns. It's a know problem, people find happiness and an alternative life during a pilgrimage and keep on walking the routes back and forth through Europe until they run out of money and then become homeless. At the beginning of the French route towards Santiago de Compostela you might still find some mental health counseling offices.
> It's a know problem, people find happiness and an alternative life during a pilgrimage and keep on walking the routes back and forth through Europe until they run out of money and then become homeless.
Really interesting, thanks for sharing this. I've never been on a pilgrimage, but the mental side does seem to have similarities with a 10-day Vipassana meditation retreat then. Occasionally, (beginning) meditators may experience something similar: struggling to re-enter the "real world" when the camp is over. That's why the last few days of a retreat are structured in a manner that prepares people for a "soft landing" in daily life.
Most interesting to hear, though, that this phenomenon can be so serious in case of pilgrimages.
Really interesting, thanks for sharing this. I've never been on a pilgrimage, but the mental side does seem to have similarities with a 10-day Vipassana meditation retreat then. Occasionally, (beginning) meditators may experience something similar: struggling to re-enter the "real world" when the camp is over. That's why the last few days of a retreat are structured in a manner that prepares people for a "soft landing" in daily life.
Most interesting to hear, though, that this phenomenon can be so serious in case of pilgrimages.
I'm doing some research and publishing related to how to try and tackle the problem, if you're interested sign up at my site
I mostly agree but I don't think avoiding to listen to stuff all the time is great either. I walked the pct for 5 months and listened to plenty of books and podcasts and they gave me many good ideas. I would often lose myself in the ideas and the podcasts would just ramble on in the background like white noise. My only regret is not noting not thoughts down.
Yet another great mind (also an infamous introvert) who used to take long walks to refresh his mind was Paul Dirac. From his 1963 interview [1] with Thomas Kuhn, he describes how a decisive Sunday walk made him see the analogy between commutators in quantum mechanics and Poisson brackets in classical mechanics:
> "I used to take long walks on Sundays and get away from the work altogether, and at the end of those walks I would perhaps go on with my work a bit in a refreshed state of mind. And after one of these Sunday walks it occurred to me that the commutator might be the analogue of the Poisson bracket, but I didn’t know very well what a Poisson bracket was then. I had just read a bit about it and forgotten most of what I had read, and I wanted to check up on this idea, but I couldn’t do it because I didn’t have any book at home which gave Poisson brackets and all the libraries were closed. So I just had to wait impatiently until Monday morning when the libraries were open to go and check up on what Poisson brackets really were. Then I found that they did fit, but I had one impatient night of waiting."
[1] https://www.aip.org/history-programs/niels-bohr-library/oral...
> "I used to take long walks on Sundays and get away from the work altogether, and at the end of those walks I would perhaps go on with my work a bit in a refreshed state of mind. And after one of these Sunday walks it occurred to me that the commutator might be the analogue of the Poisson bracket, but I didn’t know very well what a Poisson bracket was then. I had just read a bit about it and forgotten most of what I had read, and I wanted to check up on this idea, but I couldn’t do it because I didn’t have any book at home which gave Poisson brackets and all the libraries were closed. So I just had to wait impatiently until Monday morning when the libraries were open to go and check up on what Poisson brackets really were. Then I found that they did fit, but I had one impatient night of waiting."
[1] https://www.aip.org/history-programs/niels-bohr-library/oral...
>also an infamous introvert
...and a person who likely had ASD[1][2][3][4] (aka Asperger's, being on the spectrum, etc).
As did Charles Darwin (see my other comment in this thread).
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC539373/
[2] https://www.quora.com/Did-Paul-Dirac-have-Asperger-syndrome
[3]https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2009/jan/07/autism-...
[4]https://www.newstatesman.com/society/2010/11/dirac-autism-au...
...and a person who likely had ASD[1][2][3][4] (aka Asperger's, being on the spectrum, etc).
As did Charles Darwin (see my other comment in this thread).
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC539373/
[2] https://www.quora.com/Did-Paul-Dirac-have-Asperger-syndrome
[3]https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2009/jan/07/autism-...
[4]https://www.newstatesman.com/society/2010/11/dirac-autism-au...
I am not on the autistic spectrum, but in my experience walking does help a lot with thinking things through. Part of it is certainly the lack of distractions, but there is something about the movement too. I'm not sure why you've brought autism up.
I brought autism up because:
1. The #1 example featured in the article and discussed at length — Charles Darwin — is known to have exhibited autistic symptoms, and was retro diagnosed with Asperger's by medical professionals. However, this has not been discussed well in the article.
2. Walking is a form of stimming
3. Stimming while thinking is a symptom of ASD
4. It benefits the society at large to be aware of this symptom, as it is frequently looked down upon and considered ill behavior
5. In particular regarding walking: while many people can benefit from walking while thinking, it might be required for people with ASD, like Charles Darwin. However, children in our classrooms (and most office employees) don't have that option; even fidgeting while listening is not allowed in many schools.
1. The #1 example featured in the article and discussed at length — Charles Darwin — is known to have exhibited autistic symptoms, and was retro diagnosed with Asperger's by medical professionals. However, this has not been discussed well in the article.
2. Walking is a form of stimming
3. Stimming while thinking is a symptom of ASD
4. It benefits the society at large to be aware of this symptom, as it is frequently looked down upon and considered ill behavior
5. In particular regarding walking: while many people can benefit from walking while thinking, it might be required for people with ASD, like Charles Darwin. However, children in our classrooms (and most office employees) don't have that option; even fidgeting while listening is not allowed in many schools.
I like your perspective here. One of the more powerful arguments for society to embrace those who deviate from the perceived mental norms is they have so much to teach us. The more we understand each other, the better we can accomodate them while also finding ways to improve all of us.
I agree 100% with this article - I do my best thinking when walking. It is the combination of light exercise that gets the blood moving (to the brain!), but not too strenuous that our minds must devote mental energy to the act of phsyical exercise, the oxygen from the fresh air, the feeling of _wandering_ and letting our minds wander.
Sometimes I struggle with deep thinking at my desk - its too quiet / stable. A little bit of distraction helps. Not to say I don’t think while at my desk, I just think walking is a great compliment and in our sedentary lives, better to think on our feet and leave the desk to implementation / coding.
I say this after two productive walks today :)
Sometimes I struggle with deep thinking at my desk - its too quiet / stable. A little bit of distraction helps. Not to say I don’t think while at my desk, I just think walking is a great compliment and in our sedentary lives, better to think on our feet and leave the desk to implementation / coding.
I say this after two productive walks today :)
I enjoy walking very much and I can understand that it might increase overall health and therefore the quality of one's thoughts. But I never have good thoughts while walking. My brain seems to be occupied in the state of walking itself. To get into deep thought I need to be sitting down with no distractions.
We took in an older dog who had worked for 10 years at a hunting lodge. He’s incredibly well trained, doesn’t need a leash, doesn’t go wild or bark his head off under any provocation, and is happy going for long walks at a slow pace with random pauses.
I’ve lost track number and quality of excellent solutions I have come up with on these walks, including three provisional patents filed and a major contract saved. He’s earned increasingly indulgent treats.
Who rescued who?
I’ve lost track number and quality of excellent solutions I have come up with on these walks, including three provisional patents filed and a major contract saved. He’s earned increasingly indulgent treats.
Who rescued who?
heart warming
That’s a fantastic story to hear :)
For a long time, the scholarly consensus was that you are born with a fixed number of neurons and then start losing them over your lifetime. Now there is good evidence of adult neurogenesis and it seems to be linked to endurance exercise, such as walking. These links can be a starting point for reading up on it:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4425252/ https://www.npr.org/2011/02/04/133498136/growing-a-bigger-br...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4425252/ https://www.npr.org/2011/02/04/133498136/growing-a-bigger-br...
>For a long time, the scholarly consensus was that you are born with a fixed number of neurons and then start losing them over your lifetime
It's worth pointing out that this is one of those old-school ridiculousnesses that many scientists believed in for much longer than the available evidence ought to have afforded. Much in the same way that North American hospitals used to refrain from analgesics when performing minor surgeries on very young babies, as they were assumed to not experience pain (?!), up until the late 80s, so too was the mounting evidence (Merzenich in the 80s, etc) of adult neurogenesis generally dismissed because reasons.
It's worth pointing out that this is one of those old-school ridiculousnesses that many scientists believed in for much longer than the available evidence ought to have afforded. Much in the same way that North American hospitals used to refrain from analgesics when performing minor surgeries on very young babies, as they were assumed to not experience pain (?!), up until the late 80s, so too was the mounting evidence (Merzenich in the 80s, etc) of adult neurogenesis generally dismissed because reasons.
Perhaps I’m misreading the first link you’ve provided, but doesn’t it say the benefit is only for women?
I have found that I have my best (and worst) ideas by changing mental states. For example I’m usually sober so when I’m intoxicated I usually have garbage ideas, but every now and then I think of something truly incredible/useful that I would never have had insight into sober. The same applies to being sleep deprived, it leads me into a different mental headspace where I can think differently than normal (though I try to avoid being sleep deprived cause it’s miserable)
There is something about sleep deprivation that makes me so vividly visually creative, things and image flow in my mind like they otherwise never do. Unfortunately I haven't found a way to trigger this any other way, so my only real creative moments tend to happen in the middle of the night where they aren't much use to anyone.
I'm guessing the added visuals come from hypnagogia, the state between waking and sleep where you can see imagery related to dreaming. I'm especially aware of this state because I have aphantasia and thus have no other method of seeing imagery in my head that doesn't pass through my retinas first. I've seen it when I thought I was awake, but later realize I wasn't fully awake. I also used to dabble in lucid dreaming, and spent a lot of time trying to ride the line between being awake and falling asleep. I'd suggest learning how to lucid dream, because that's another environment where you can be visually creative.
AFAIK sleep deprivation is discussed as a short term treatment of depression. I don't have any exclusive papers on hand (I'm not an expert), but if you are interested, please do your own research.
I’ve heard Dr. John McDougall say this too — he recommends less sleep than most doctors for this reason.
[1] https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2002nl/mar/sleep.htm
[1] https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2002nl/mar/sleep.htm
Where is this discussed? I'm curious.
Recently I had to wake up at 3am and drive for a couple of hour. Something I never do. I had the strangest and most interesting insights! It was very similar to what you describe, a different mental state.
However, unfortunately I forgot many of the insights since I was so endlessly tired! Should have taken notes while driving with just 3h of sleep…
However, unfortunately I forgot many of the insights since I was so endlessly tired! Should have taken notes while driving with just 3h of sleep…
I've seen some people using a dictaphone for this kind of thing. I'm sure these days you can get a phone app that would even auto-transcribe your 3AM ramblings. :)
Try digging a tunnel. Sensory deprivation combined with meticulous hard labor can be enlightening.
Very interesting you said that here. I regurarly walk aimlessly, I regurarly have this impression that i have to skip a day of sleep to be exceptionally productive, and i also used to be obseessed with digging large holes especially when i was younger and able to dig like that in my parents garden.
As a person that often exhibits characteristics and symptoms of depression (but has never been officially diagnosed), I find that staying awake for well over a day can clear my symptoms and reset my brain. I Scott Alexander has written an essay on this [1].
[1] https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/sleep-is-the-mate-of-d...
[1] https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/sleep-is-the-mate-of-d...
I also enjoy digging holes since I was a child. The sense of space and control over that space might be part of why?
I have ADHD and without my medicine begin walking obsessively. In college, i would walk from one end of campus to the other over and over. When i lived in downtown Dallas i would walk from the West End to Deep Ellum (that's petty far on foot) and back over and over as well. It was good exercise i guess but took a lot of time/energy. Plus, on weekdays i would do it at night which is not the safest thing.
Now on medication, I still walk but not near as much, maybe a mile a day. And, like others have said, i've solved many problems while walking so it's not a total waste of time.
Now on medication, I still walk but not near as much, maybe a mile a day. And, like others have said, i've solved many problems while walking so it's not a total waste of time.
I've said in my other comment here that "walking-helps-thinking" is a well-known symptom of ADHD and ASD.
Was surprised to see my comment initially downvoted a lot.
For all who feel like they need walk to think about things, looking into ADHD/ASD could improve y'all's lives.
Was surprised to see my comment initially downvoted a lot.
For all who feel like they need walk to think about things, looking into ADHD/ASD could improve y'all's lives.
For more / additional information, check out Alex Soojung-Kim Pang's book Rest: Why You Get More Done When You Work Less. Like Jeremy DeSilva, the author of this Lithub article, Pang discusses Darwin and others who consistently walked to think.
The short story is that Pang went and read through the diaries of many notable thinkers, artists and creative types going back to the 19th century. Walking is one tool in the tool box. There are others, including getting enough sleep and taking naps.
The short story is that Pang went and read through the diaries of many notable thinkers, artists and creative types going back to the 19th century. Walking is one tool in the tool box. There are others, including getting enough sleep and taking naps.
I don’t deny the link. I worked with a programmer/mathematician who would just start ambling about the office without any mission when deep in thought. I think that in his case the thinking actually drives the walking instead of vice versa.
>Oppezzo designed an elegant experiment. A group of Stanford students were asked to list as many creative uses for common objects as they could. A Frisbee, for example, can be used as a dog toy, but it can also be used as a hat, a plate, a bird bath, or a small shovel. The more novel uses a student listed, the higher the creativity score. Half the students sat for an hour before they were given their test. The others walked on a treadmill.
>The results were staggering. Creativity scores improved by 60 percent after a walk.
With everything in the news about reproducibility and doctored data, this seems too staggering to believe. Has this study been tried again?
>Oppezzo designed an elegant experiment. A group of Stanford students were asked to list as many creative uses for common objects as they could. A Frisbee, for example, can be used as a dog toy, but it can also be used as a hat, a plate, a bird bath, or a small shovel. The more novel uses a student listed, the higher the creativity score. Half the students sat for an hour before they were given their test. The others walked on a treadmill.
>The results were staggering. Creativity scores improved by 60 percent after a walk.
With everything in the news about reproducibility and doctored data, this seems too staggering to believe. Has this study been tried again?
> With everything in the news about reproducibility and doctored data, this seems too staggering to believe. Has this study been tried again?
Yep, totally! I'm a firm believer in the power of walking to increase thoughts, but whenever I read about studies like this a big red beeping alarm goes of in my brain that goes "replication crisis! replication crisis!"
Yep, totally! I'm a firm believer in the power of walking to increase thoughts, but whenever I read about studies like this a big red beeping alarm goes of in my brain that goes "replication crisis! replication crisis!"
There are other cases / studies that point to similar cognitive improvements through exercise.
There was a case study I read in the book linked below and it indicated that test scores improved dramatically when they had kids exercise before learning. It states that the improvements occurred regardless of physical ability as long as participants aimed to achieve their personal best during exercise.
I can't speak to the quality of the research but it is interesting and does not surprise me.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Spark-Revolutionary-Science-Exercise-...
There was a case study I read in the book linked below and it indicated that test scores improved dramatically when they had kids exercise before learning. It states that the improvements occurred regardless of physical ability as long as participants aimed to achieve their personal best during exercise.
I can't speak to the quality of the research but it is interesting and does not surprise me.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Spark-Revolutionary-Science-Exercise-...
I'm more interested that the walk was before the test. I thought the point was to think while you're walking.
Maybe they told them the question beforehand and then the test was writing down their answers.
My personal assumption was, that walking, always was hunting for us as a species.
So to hunt for great ideas, one must connect the whole experience to what we did once to track down animals.
Look at the ground, when thinking about facts, chains of evidence, the origin of your problems. Walk known routes, when traversing well known approaches, take unknown routes, go off-road, when you are stuck with the usual ways.
Move your body, like you want your mind to move, but most important, do not self-observe while you do it. Forget about yourself, think only about the pray and the hunt.
It may just be superstitious. But it is how my subconscious tries to explain away my endless pacing.
Horrido.
So to hunt for great ideas, one must connect the whole experience to what we did once to track down animals.
Look at the ground, when thinking about facts, chains of evidence, the origin of your problems. Walk known routes, when traversing well known approaches, take unknown routes, go off-road, when you are stuck with the usual ways.
Move your body, like you want your mind to move, but most important, do not self-observe while you do it. Forget about yourself, think only about the pray and the hunt.
It may just be superstitious. But it is how my subconscious tries to explain away my endless pacing.
Horrido.
I think it’s also just an activity that preoccupies a portion of your consciousness so that the subconscious can chime in. I get the same effect from mowing grass.
I get a similar effect from assembling lego sets. But I think walking works better - probably to do with the increased blood flow helping thoughts do their thing.
Our minds are closely integrated with our bodies.
In addition to walking, I've noticed that walking in a fasted state (usually early in the morning) really gets the mind turning.
It does take a little while to get that perfect pace sometimes.
Also: hounds (in my case, a beagle) are excellent long walk buddies.
One more, going off the deep end: long thinking walks along trails in the woods (ideally a path that you know well so you don't have to think about it) can be a low-key spiritual experience.
It does take a little while to get that perfect pace sometimes.
Also: hounds (in my case, a beagle) are excellent long walk buddies.
One more, going off the deep end: long thinking walks along trails in the woods (ideally a path that you know well so you don't have to think about it) can be a low-key spiritual experience.
This is why I am looking for a simple AR headset: so I can look at code while walking through the woods in my area. Just a simple translucent IDE is all I need.
I definitely feel that I am better at thinking when walking, but I also need to be looking at source code to get the details, otherwise I can only think about larger architecture.
When is this coming?
I definitely feel that I am better at thinking when walking, but I also need to be looking at source code to get the details, otherwise I can only think about larger architecture.
When is this coming?
This is sad. Just enjoy walking through the woods, all the different colors and use that as time to reflect. You can still think about work and coding blocks you need to overcome, but spare yourself the IDE in front of your eyes. This is just symptomatic of how we are at an extreme with how we need to be productive, all of the time.
I actually like what I do though, otherwise why would I want to bring it with me? I feel good when I code, I feel good when walking, and I'll feel better if I can code while walking.
It's really a bit patronizing, as an adult without an AR headset I've obviously tried "just walking and reflecting".
It's really a bit patronizing, as an adult without an AR headset I've obviously tried "just walking and reflecting".
I think this is quite the wrong way of looking at Walking. It is the relaxed, ruminative, mind-wandering state that the mind and body get into while Walking that is so essential for Creativity. By providing it with more attention grabbing stimulus you are actually distracting it.
A monocular works perfectly already. Decades ago I was walking around with a 640x480 monocular attached to a CF card in my Toshiba e755 WinCE PDA. Here's just one:
https://www.amazon.com/Vufine-006011-Wearable-Display/dp/B01...
Here's me with a monocular. https://olin.monster/about.html The cable broke and the CF interface is outdated so I don't use it anymore. For me it might be best to get into an audio desktop or record my thoughts when walking as the background distracts as it moves like a sinus wave when walking. http://emacspeak.sourceforge.net/
Here's me with a monocular. https://olin.monster/about.html The cable broke and the CF interface is outdated so I don't use it anymore. For me it might be best to get into an audio desktop or record my thoughts when walking as the background distracts as it moves like a sinus wave when walking. http://emacspeak.sourceforge.net/
A treadmill desk might be easier to obtain.
The wolfram alpha founder does this with a laptop and custom harness.
You made me feel old, Stephen Wolfram is now known for launching WolframAlpha rather than for creating Wolfram Mathematica.
Truly a sign of the passing of time.
Truly a sign of the passing of time.
https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2019/02/seeking-the-prod...
this article goes into some details about Stephen Wolfram's walking laptop setup.
The application of VR/AR technology to creative office work is generally underrated (with too much emphasis on games/entertainment). SimulaVR is making a portable Linux VR headset which will have an "AR mode" (using cameras), scheduled for Kickstarter release early next year: www.simulavr.com
We have plans to eventually release a proper AR headset also, though not on first iteration.
We have plans to eventually release a proper AR headset also, though not on first iteration.
> When is this coming?
Well, there's Nreal Light, with nice 1080p.
But it may not fit your face well. I use it without the nose piece, and with the temples down around the middle of my ears. The recurring "we didn't design it for you" China HMD fit problem. I've no idea if the EU release was identical. And some complain of its weight.
It's been variously available in Asia for years, more recently in the EU, but not yet in the US I believe (there was talk of maybe this year). In the US one has been able to ebay it from elsewhere, but US Customs duties have been highly varied and sometimes quite large.
[1] sunset silliness: https://twitter.com/mncharity/status/1397553615372529668
Well, there's Nreal Light, with nice 1080p.
But it may not fit your face well. I use it without the nose piece, and with the temples down around the middle of my ears. The recurring "we didn't design it for you" China HMD fit problem. I've no idea if the EU release was identical. And some complain of its weight.
It's been variously available in Asia for years, more recently in the EU, but not yet in the US I believe (there was talk of maybe this year). In the US one has been able to ebay it from elsewhere, but US Customs duties have been highly varied and sometimes quite large.
[1] sunset silliness: https://twitter.com/mncharity/status/1397553615372529668
I get up at 5-5:30AM, every day, and walk two miles. I put some effort into the walk. My usual speed is 16 minutes a mile. It used to be less than 15, but I’ve slowed a bit, as I’ve gotten older. Nothing spectacular, but it gets my heart rate up, and I usually break a bit of a sweat.
I wouldn’t call myself a “great thinker,” but I find it useful to do these daily walks.
The walk helps me to clear my mind, and organize the day’s tasks. I generally code every day, so I often use the time to work out a tactical plan for the day’s work. Sometimes, I work out a strategy for a longer term, but it’s usually just a daily plan. I often come up with big pivots, or solve pernicious bugs, during my walk. I work in a very dynamic fashion, with frequent direction changes, during a given project, and tend to be ambitious, in my goals, so I always have problems to solve.
I frequently fix big bugs, right after getting home from a walk. I’ll walk up to the desk, log in, fire up Xcode, and apply the fix. After that, I’ll hit the shower. A standing desk helps a lot, here. Sometimes, I’m at the computer for an hour, before I take my shower.
Yeah, I can be a bit obsessive…
I tried running, a few years ago, but I tended to injure myself, which would result in gaps of up to a month at a go; so walking, it is.
The last couple of days, I’ve had to stay in, because it’s been raining buckets in the morning. I also sometimes need to have breaks in the winter, because snow makes the route downright dangerous.
Otherwise, it’s two miles, at 5:15-6AM, every day. Takes just about a half hour. I don headphones, and play rather mindless techno music (it’s usually the only time during the day, when I listen to music. I don’t listen while working). I also wear what I call my “clown suit,” or bright, reflective clothing, as it tends to be dark, and people drive like crap, in the morning. I suspect a lot of texting and emailing, while driving. Stop signs and lane markers are really just “suggestions.”
I also think personal Discipline is critical to my work and lifestyle. I find that these walks help to reinforce that. I’ve been doing it for years, and have never really come to enjoy them. I feel that it’s good for me to do at least two things, every day, that I don’t want to do. I usually have that covered before 7.
I wouldn’t call myself a “great thinker,” but I find it useful to do these daily walks.
The walk helps me to clear my mind, and organize the day’s tasks. I generally code every day, so I often use the time to work out a tactical plan for the day’s work. Sometimes, I work out a strategy for a longer term, but it’s usually just a daily plan. I often come up with big pivots, or solve pernicious bugs, during my walk. I work in a very dynamic fashion, with frequent direction changes, during a given project, and tend to be ambitious, in my goals, so I always have problems to solve.
I frequently fix big bugs, right after getting home from a walk. I’ll walk up to the desk, log in, fire up Xcode, and apply the fix. After that, I’ll hit the shower. A standing desk helps a lot, here. Sometimes, I’m at the computer for an hour, before I take my shower.
Yeah, I can be a bit obsessive…
I tried running, a few years ago, but I tended to injure myself, which would result in gaps of up to a month at a go; so walking, it is.
The last couple of days, I’ve had to stay in, because it’s been raining buckets in the morning. I also sometimes need to have breaks in the winter, because snow makes the route downright dangerous.
Otherwise, it’s two miles, at 5:15-6AM, every day. Takes just about a half hour. I don headphones, and play rather mindless techno music (it’s usually the only time during the day, when I listen to music. I don’t listen while working). I also wear what I call my “clown suit,” or bright, reflective clothing, as it tends to be dark, and people drive like crap, in the morning. I suspect a lot of texting and emailing, while driving. Stop signs and lane markers are really just “suggestions.”
I also think personal Discipline is critical to my work and lifestyle. I find that these walks help to reinforce that. I’ve been doing it for years, and have never really come to enjoy them. I feel that it’s good for me to do at least two things, every day, that I don’t want to do. I usually have that covered before 7.
I like walking and have walked around 2-5 miles a day for the last 7 or 8ish years. I also go without a phone and I go every day no matter what the weather is like in NY (hot summers and snowy winters).
There's a bunch of benefits and I'll continue doing it because I really do enjoy it and I do think it helps get clarity but I wouldn't treat it like a magical activity that's going to make you successful on its own in whatever field you're working in.
It's still very possible to feel the pressures of what a non-walker will experience such as procrastination and everything else we all know and experience.
But with that said, I do highly recommend giving walking a shot. It's a really relaxing way to decompress.
There's a bunch of benefits and I'll continue doing it because I really do enjoy it and I do think it helps get clarity but I wouldn't treat it like a magical activity that's going to make you successful on its own in whatever field you're working in.
It's still very possible to feel the pressures of what a non-walker will experience such as procrastination and everything else we all know and experience.
But with that said, I do highly recommend giving walking a shot. It's a really relaxing way to decompress.
Coming from Asia, especially tropical countries, walking is not very common during lunch time as you can get sweaty and disgusting coming back to work.
After living in AU I'm surprised by how many of my co-workers do walking as part of their lunch break. Me on the other hand just stay at my computer, code, when I'm stuck I stop and think.. Maybe I should start walking rather than being a lazy ass
After living in AU I'm surprised by how many of my co-workers do walking as part of their lunch break. Me on the other hand just stay at my computer, code, when I'm stuck I stop and think.. Maybe I should start walking rather than being a lazy ass
That's really surprising. In AU they'll leave their desks to go for lunch, yes. Go walking? Never seen that. The most they'll do is take the car to go to the gym.
Walking does a surprising amount of good for fitness too, if you can do enough of it. When I worked in a grocery store I was in great shape.
Have you tried walking in the morning or evening?
According to Apple Fitness for the past year I've walked on average 15.9 km per day (or 19715 steps). It's fair to say that I enjoy it immensely.
The thought of walking being a privilege of certain a subset of the population hadn't even crossed my mind, but does make me a little sad.
The thought of walking being a privilege of certain a subset of the population hadn't even crossed my mind, but does make me a little sad.
Somewhat related, about 10 years ago I was in a tragic situation where someone I loved would be murdered but I couldn't speak out because of possible retaliation against my family.
I found myself compulsively walking randomly in the city every night for several nights. I would walk half way to a random destination only to change directions in 30 minutes convinced I was headed the wrong way forgetting the previous destination and repeatedly heading part way to successive random destinations. I did this night after night convinced there was a place I needed to go but in retrospect they were completely arbitrary and there was no purpose. I recently read the book Crime and Punishment and there is a scene a bit like this which suggests this may be in our DNA. To share further, I eventually spoke out (at some point you have to pick your poison) and the person did die suddenly and unexpectedly. The NYPD coroner eventually ruled out foul play, but the suspects the suspects left the country immediately after his death so it wouldn't have mattered.
Had you plotted my path you would say that it was the walk of a person who is "lost", yet I knew the city perfectly. However it was accurate to say I was hopelessly lost.
Changing subjects to lighten things up, I would assume there would be a metaphor for walking in way that parallels what your brain is doing when it is searching for a solution but I can't think of a word. Contemplative walks are certainly not erratic and discontinuous as described above. They are smooth and differentiable like a gradient descent.
I found myself compulsively walking randomly in the city every night for several nights. I would walk half way to a random destination only to change directions in 30 minutes convinced I was headed the wrong way forgetting the previous destination and repeatedly heading part way to successive random destinations. I did this night after night convinced there was a place I needed to go but in retrospect they were completely arbitrary and there was no purpose. I recently read the book Crime and Punishment and there is a scene a bit like this which suggests this may be in our DNA. To share further, I eventually spoke out (at some point you have to pick your poison) and the person did die suddenly and unexpectedly. The NYPD coroner eventually ruled out foul play, but the suspects the suspects left the country immediately after his death so it wouldn't have mattered.
Had you plotted my path you would say that it was the walk of a person who is "lost", yet I knew the city perfectly. However it was accurate to say I was hopelessly lost.
Changing subjects to lighten things up, I would assume there would be a metaphor for walking in way that parallels what your brain is doing when it is searching for a solution but I can't think of a word. Contemplative walks are certainly not erratic and discontinuous as described above. They are smooth and differentiable like a gradient descent.
Do you still believe they were murdered? Who were these people? Which country is performing possible assassinations in America? Why would they want to murder your family member? So many questions!
I wasn't sure if my comment was in the spirit of HN given it's overly personal and is now totally irrelevant to the lithub post. But since you asked -- before the PD's conclusion I told myself I would just accept whatever they report. But doing that has now left me with the lifelong burden of falsely accusing two people of murder.
The people were desperately poor in-laws. He was becoming cash poor but was still home equity rich and often commented that if he missed too many remittances he would likely be killed. Poisoning was rumored to be a common way to accelerate the inheritance process in his native country. When this is about to happen, the rumors start but everyone is afraid to do anything. I heard the rumor from a desperate family member but who then ended the conversation with "please don't say anything" and another implying they will take revenge. The in-laws came for a quick visit, he soon became so ill he ended up in the hospital and died, and then they quickly left. I have law enforcement buddies that mentioned poisoning can be extremely difficult to detect and prove and no one in his country could tell me names of poisons that were useful to his doctors. His doctors could not explain why he was so sick, and the coroner mentioned some health problems he found that could have killed him but implied that this conclusion was not strong.
The people were desperately poor in-laws. He was becoming cash poor but was still home equity rich and often commented that if he missed too many remittances he would likely be killed. Poisoning was rumored to be a common way to accelerate the inheritance process in his native country. When this is about to happen, the rumors start but everyone is afraid to do anything. I heard the rumor from a desperate family member but who then ended the conversation with "please don't say anything" and another implying they will take revenge. The in-laws came for a quick visit, he soon became so ill he ended up in the hospital and died, and then they quickly left. I have law enforcement buddies that mentioned poisoning can be extremely difficult to detect and prove and no one in his country could tell me names of poisons that were useful to his doctors. His doctors could not explain why he was so sick, and the coroner mentioned some health problems he found that could have killed him but implied that this conclusion was not strong.
Which country is that?
If he knew they were going to kill him why did he let them visit?
A surprise visit it might have been..
Yeah the story about losing a family member to murder (a pretty rare form of death, AIUI) overshadows whatever they were saying about walking
condolences for your loss, an oddly fascinating story
I got into walking due to health reason, and there's a freedom seeking / search in it yes. The internal process of finding a path from idea to idea b is probably linked to the geometry of going from spot to spot.
another thing about walking, is that it's free, and every fork in the road means you get to decide where you feel like you want to go, and that, to me, seems a deep need for our minds.
I got into walking due to health reason, and there's a freedom seeking / search in it yes. The internal process of finding a path from idea to idea b is probably linked to the geometry of going from spot to spot.
another thing about walking, is that it's free, and every fork in the road means you get to decide where you feel like you want to go, and that, to me, seems a deep need for our minds.
Crime and Punishment was the first thing that came to my mind while reading your story! Sorry for you lose and hope you are doing better now.
I can lose my sense of location when walking in an area which I have driven around a lot but then try to walk. Same for an area which I try to walk at night when I have only been there previously during the day. Or the opposite.
I had that situation the first time I smoked weed as an adult while visiting Seattle. The funny part is that I kept rediscovering the fact that I had no idea where I was or where I was going, just the compulsion to walk.
During various confinements over the past year, I really enjoyed "illegal" late night walks when the streets and parks were completely dead. I found it the perfect ambiance to memorize poetry. Write them out long-hand and then carry nothing but the piece of paper for reference as needed. I don't have the patience for that in any other context.
It's been a surprisingly enriching complement to my daily routine to recite them to myself later on my bike or with friends. I'd never appreciated the poetic form before Covid, and I'd seriously encourage other young folks to give it a shot, especially if your only poetic exposure was in high school.
It's been a surprisingly enriching complement to my daily routine to recite them to myself later on my bike or with friends. I'd never appreciated the poetic form before Covid, and I'd seriously encourage other young folks to give it a shot, especially if your only poetic exposure was in high school.
> 19th-century naturalist’s version of backpacking around Europe during a gap year
I find it hard to imagine sailing around the somewhat quite unknown world on an 19thC sailing ship (rum, sodomy and the lash, not to mention scurvy, rats, cockroaches) was much like a millennial gap year.
I find it hard to imagine sailing around the somewhat quite unknown world on an 19thC sailing ship (rum, sodomy and the lash, not to mention scurvy, rats, cockroaches) was much like a millennial gap year.
I was recently reading a book called Why we Swim where the author traces how the ape got back into the water. I think she rightly points out that Swimming is the best place to think because there is no way to be distracted by your phone or anything else for that matter.
While I am also in a landlocked city with little access to pools but it would be interesting to get the point of view of swimmers.
While I am also in a landlocked city with little access to pools but it would be interesting to get the point of view of swimmers.
Although I never carry a phone to begin with, as a previous non-swimmer I have started swimming in open water this year ( obviously I learnt to swim as a child ).
The 'just you and the elements' part is real, in the open water you can't just stop and get out, you have got to complete what you started. The 'completeness' of the exercise is different than biking or walking : every joint and muscle seems to be involved.
Back on land, the exhaustion is a different level than any other. Very deep breaths. When I get home, I am hungry as hell. Chronically under-weight, I seem to be gaining weight, very happy with that.
The end of summer is approaching and the water is getting colder, I am exploring the indoor pools in my vicinity.
The 'just you and the elements' part is real, in the open water you can't just stop and get out, you have got to complete what you started. The 'completeness' of the exercise is different than biking or walking : every joint and muscle seems to be involved.
Back on land, the exhaustion is a different level than any other. Very deep breaths. When I get home, I am hungry as hell. Chronically under-weight, I seem to be gaining weight, very happy with that.
The end of summer is approaching and the water is getting colder, I am exploring the indoor pools in my vicinity.
> The end of summer is approaching and the water is getting colder, I am exploring the indoor pools in my vicinity.
I don't know where you are, but would wetsuit help to extend the time you can swim in the open waters? Obviously, I'm just assuming you're not doing that already... :)
I don't know where you are, but would wetsuit help to extend the time you can swim in the open waters? Obviously, I'm just assuming you're not doing that already... :)
It might. But the problem is not only the temp of the water.
If it is overcast, windy and not too warm, it takes a lot of mental strength to engage in the activity.
I am a bit disappointed by the entrace fee of the indoor pools : about € 5. These are municipal pools.
If it is overcast, windy and not too warm, it takes a lot of mental strength to engage in the activity.
I am a bit disappointed by the entrace fee of the indoor pools : about € 5. These are municipal pools.
I don't know about you, but I'm particularly motivated by endurance activities in the cold. The mental aspect of accepting the cold's effect on you is often more interesting than the motoric process of running or swimming.
You should read or watch Wim Hof. He advices cold weather exercise. His method involves swimming in freezing waters.
When I was younger I swam a little over a mile a day, five or sometimes six days a week. While there weren't that many distractions, I didn't find it as easy to daydream. I usually got bored. I would count the full laps, and because I was bored I would be thinking things like "12 more laps and I'm over 50%" or whatever, but I never had the free-roaming thinking that I associate with walking. Maybe because I only had so much time before I had to turn around yet again.
I don't recommend swimming that much a week, btw, because I eventually started losing stamina and had to stop completely because I got to where I couldn't do even a quarter mile. That was where I learned the power of resting.
I don't recommend swimming that much a week, btw, because I eventually started losing stamina and had to stop completely because I got to where I couldn't do even a quarter mile. That was where I learned the power of resting.
Some "serious" swimmers wear sports watches that collect and show all kinds of information: lap times, strokes per lane etc.
Plenty of opportunity to get distracted.
Plenty of opportunity to get distracted.
There's headphones for swimmers :)
Summary of the studies mentioned in the article:
- An experiment to look at the effects of walking on creative thinking done by Marilyn Oppezzo, a Stanford University psychologist and her Ph.D. advisor: A group of Stanford students were asked to list as many creative uses for common objects as they could. A Frisbee, for example, can be used as a dog toy, but it can also be used as a hat, a plate, a bird bath, or a small shovel. The more novel uses a student listed, the higher the creativity score. Half the students sat for an hour before they were given their test. The others walked on a treadmill. The results were staggering. Creativity scores improved by 60 percent after a walk.
- Michelle Voss, a University of Iowa psychology professor, studied the effects of walking on brain connectivity. She recruited 65 couch-potato volunteers aged 55 to 80 and imaged their brains in an MRI machine. For the next year, half of her volunteers took 40-minute walks three times a week. The other participants kept spending their days watching Golden Girls reruns and only participated in stretching exercises as a control. After a year, Voss put everyone back in the MRI machine and imaged their brains again. Not much had happened to the control group, but the walkers had significantly improved connectivity in regions of the brain understood to play an important role in our ability to think creatively.
- Jennifer Weuve of Boston University’s School of Public Health studied the relationship between walking and cognitive decline in 18,766 women aged 70 to 81. Her team asked them to name as many animals as they could in one minute. Those who walked regularly recalled more penguins, pandas, and pangolins than the women who were less mobile. Weuve then read a series of numbers and asked the women to repeat them in reverse order. Those who walked regularly performed the task much better than those who didn’t.
The author notes at the end that correlation does not equal causation. He says that perhaps the arrow of causality was pointing in the wrong direction. Maybe mentally active people were simply more likely to go for a walk. Researchers had to dive deeper.
- An experiment to look at the effects of walking on creative thinking done by Marilyn Oppezzo, a Stanford University psychologist and her Ph.D. advisor: A group of Stanford students were asked to list as many creative uses for common objects as they could. A Frisbee, for example, can be used as a dog toy, but it can also be used as a hat, a plate, a bird bath, or a small shovel. The more novel uses a student listed, the higher the creativity score. Half the students sat for an hour before they were given their test. The others walked on a treadmill. The results were staggering. Creativity scores improved by 60 percent after a walk.
- Michelle Voss, a University of Iowa psychology professor, studied the effects of walking on brain connectivity. She recruited 65 couch-potato volunteers aged 55 to 80 and imaged their brains in an MRI machine. For the next year, half of her volunteers took 40-minute walks three times a week. The other participants kept spending their days watching Golden Girls reruns and only participated in stretching exercises as a control. After a year, Voss put everyone back in the MRI machine and imaged their brains again. Not much had happened to the control group, but the walkers had significantly improved connectivity in regions of the brain understood to play an important role in our ability to think creatively.
- Jennifer Weuve of Boston University’s School of Public Health studied the relationship between walking and cognitive decline in 18,766 women aged 70 to 81. Her team asked them to name as many animals as they could in one minute. Those who walked regularly recalled more penguins, pandas, and pangolins than the women who were less mobile. Weuve then read a series of numbers and asked the women to repeat them in reverse order. Those who walked regularly performed the task much better than those who didn’t.
The author notes at the end that correlation does not equal causation. He says that perhaps the arrow of causality was pointing in the wrong direction. Maybe mentally active people were simply more likely to go for a walk. Researchers had to dive deeper.
This appeals to Marilyn Oppezzo's and Daniel Schwartz's 2014 study on walking and creativity [1], based on an experiment with 48 subjects, a lot of subjective assessment, and a weird constraint which sounds like p-hacking ("The CRA task always followed the GAU task, because pilot work indicated that the CRA could be demoralizing, which interfered with performance on an immediately following GAU task.") Does anyone know whether it has been replicated? My money would be on replication failing.
[1] https://aaalab.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Oppez...
[1] https://aaalab.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Oppez...
This was mentioned before, but the explanation is very simple - walking gets your brain flushed with blood, making you think clearer. That's all there is to it.
To take it further, recent studies suggest that exercise more strenuous than just walking makes you better at dealing with uncomfortable decisions and situations (as exercise forces you to power through discomfort).
https://www.thecut.com/2016/06/how-exercise-shapes-you-far-b...
To take it further, recent studies suggest that exercise more strenuous than just walking makes you better at dealing with uncomfortable decisions and situations (as exercise forces you to power through discomfort).
https://www.thecut.com/2016/06/how-exercise-shapes-you-far-b...
Good point. I think we need to be careful in recognizing that strenuous exercise does not enable us to make better considered decisions. It is gentle rhythmic exercise (eg. Walking, Tai-chi etc.) which does not tire out the body that is so important for brain health and better decision making.
> I think we need to be careful in recognizing that strenuous exercise does not enable us to make better considered decisions.
What? Is there any evidence to support this statement?
I know I (personally, anecdotally) am a way calmer, more rational and reasonable decision maker after bouts of intense exercise. - Heavy lifting sessions, hard sports training, etc.
What? Is there any evidence to support this statement?
I know I (personally, anecdotally) am a way calmer, more rational and reasonable decision maker after bouts of intense exercise. - Heavy lifting sessions, hard sports training, etc.
Note that i used the phrase "better considered decisions" which is not the same as making a "quick decision". Decision making is improved during Walking while you need some variable time after Strenuous Exercise when your Arousal state has calmed down to make better decisions.
The Inverted U Hypothesis (aka Yerkes-Dodson law - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yerkes%E2%80%93Dodson_law) and https://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/inverted-u.htm was the first to posit the relationship between Arousal and Performance. However there are lots of nuances to this. The important one is Cue Utilization Theory (https://www.elitetrack.com/blogs-details-7362/ and https://psychology.iresearchnet.com/sports-psychology/percep...) which is relevant for decision making.
Coming to Exercise Intensity and Decision Making you may find the following papers helpful for some empirical data.
* Influence of exercise intensity on the decision-making performance of experienced and inexperienced soccer players - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19454768/ and Fontana's thesis at https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/12206332.pdf
* Effect of Exercise Intensity Level on Choice Reaction Time - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.2466/11.03.CP.4.3
PS: I have linked to two relevant books in another post of mine in this thread which you may find useful.
The Inverted U Hypothesis (aka Yerkes-Dodson law - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yerkes%E2%80%93Dodson_law) and https://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/inverted-u.htm was the first to posit the relationship between Arousal and Performance. However there are lots of nuances to this. The important one is Cue Utilization Theory (https://www.elitetrack.com/blogs-details-7362/ and https://psychology.iresearchnet.com/sports-psychology/percep...) which is relevant for decision making.
Coming to Exercise Intensity and Decision Making you may find the following papers helpful for some empirical data.
* Influence of exercise intensity on the decision-making performance of experienced and inexperienced soccer players - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19454768/ and Fontana's thesis at https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/12206332.pdf
* Effect of Exercise Intensity Level on Choice Reaction Time - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.2466/11.03.CP.4.3
PS: I have linked to two relevant books in another post of mine in this thread which you may find useful.
Everything in my life I've ever won an award for I thought of/through while walking
What are some of the things you have won awards for?
Nothing major, especially not by HN standards. Won best game design at one of the Global Game Jam sites a couple times & won a Ford smart mobility app design competition thing. Got a couple minor IndieCade type noms back in the day but didn't win
Whenever I was learning for exams I would learn while randomly walking through environments. This helped me so much because I could connect the topics learned to the places I walked through, so afterwards I'd just have to walk that walk again to remember the topics in sequence.
Walking is generally a good and inspiring pastime and I am glad I live in a part of the planets where my environment is both walkable and safe.
Walking is generally a good and inspiring pastime and I am glad I live in a part of the planets where my environment is both walkable and safe.
What in the hell is that video embedded on the page doing? I was reading, then noticed a woman's head moving which distracted me. The article was interesting enough that I was prepared to put in the effort to pause it myself, but when I mouse over the video pauses and presents a play button. When I mouse out it starts playing again.
I used to really enjoy walking when I lived somewhere with decent parks. I’d wait till early evening, when it wasn’t as hot and head down to one of the river walk near by and just keep walking and thinking about whatever. A little while after things got dark I would walk up into town and grab me something to eat.
I really miss late night walks, but unfortunately where I live now there aren’t so many great options. A few nature trails that close early as hell and are probably moderately unsafe at that time. There are some of paths in the residential area I live in now, but they’re relatively short unless I want to link up to a main road (cars zipping past you at whatever speed does not do well for thinking) and I’m not gonna risk getting harassed because I’m out walking too late.
I really miss late night walks, but unfortunately where I live now there aren’t so many great options. A few nature trails that close early as hell and are probably moderately unsafe at that time. There are some of paths in the residential area I live in now, but they’re relatively short unless I want to link up to a main road (cars zipping past you at whatever speed does not do well for thinking) and I’m not gonna risk getting harassed because I’m out walking too late.
In the before time, I'd optimize productivity with a mix of modalities. Some things were best done with technical pen on paper. Others as outline or text files. Others with assorted styles of coding. Whiteboards and discussion. And others with assorted styles of walking. The long slow ponder. The quick brief pace for a minor decision. The "what am I'm missing here?" distracted walking into walls.:) Matching modality to the moment seemed an art form.
I've fond memories of one site, a few cubicles and tables in one corner of a big otherwise-empty floor of a office park building. A floor wrapped with full-height windows looking out on trees. One could variously loop, without bothering anyone, alternating walking and desk work.
I've fond memories of one site, a few cubicles and tables in one corner of a big otherwise-empty floor of a office park building. A floor wrapped with full-height windows looking out on trees. One could variously loop, without bothering anyone, alternating walking and desk work.
Mevlana / Rumi, a persian religious scholar and poet in the 13th century was known to walk in circles around pillars of a mosque.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumi
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumi
I walk to think, very frequently. I talk to myself sometimes too, which can get weird if you get comfortable with it, as you'll sometimes do it in the presence of strangers and look crazy.
Usually I pace, sometimes I stroll, always outside.
Usually I pace, sometimes I stroll, always outside.
Would listening to music or a podcast or an audiobook interfere with the generation of ideas while walking? I love running and walking but I always feel like I have to have something playing in my ear during.
I believe it does interfere.
I started walking pretty obsessively during the pandemic as a way to get exercise that I used to get by bicycle commuting. Normally I would listen to podcasts during this time.
However a few times when I went without anything in my ears I noticed that I was starting to do real work while walking, and coming up with great solutions to difficult problems.
Now I limit podcasts just as I would with TV, video games or any other passive consumption. Nothing against consumption per se—a lot of ideas are seeded from outside—but in terms of creative work there's huge value to being left alone with ones thought. Anything mentally engaging will disrupt that.
I started walking pretty obsessively during the pandemic as a way to get exercise that I used to get by bicycle commuting. Normally I would listen to podcasts during this time.
However a few times when I went without anything in my ears I noticed that I was starting to do real work while walking, and coming up with great solutions to difficult problems.
Now I limit podcasts just as I would with TV, video games or any other passive consumption. Nothing against consumption per se—a lot of ideas are seeded from outside—but in terms of creative work there's huge value to being left alone with ones thought. Anything mentally engaging will disrupt that.
I second this.
I do long distance cycling and always had an audiobook going. One day my battery died and I had an hour and a half of silence.
I found my thoughts were enjoyable. I now take some rides without any audio at all.
I do long distance cycling and always had an audiobook going. One day my battery died and I had an hour and a half of silence.
I found my thoughts were enjoyable. I now take some rides without any audio at all.
[deleted]
i have the reverse experience. thinking interferes with my ability to listen. sometimes i am distracted by some important topic, work or personal or other, sometimes the story i am listening to is not engaging enough.
but then i spend most of the day working alone, so i have plenty of time to think. and for me the point of going for a walk and listen to a story is to stop thinking for some time and immerse myself into a different world.
but then i spend most of the day working alone, so i have plenty of time to think. and for me the point of going for a walk and listen to a story is to stop thinking for some time and immerse myself into a different world.
A little. I walked on average 6.5 km daily since March, mostly to lose weight and relax, but I also had a lot of ideas regarding my hobby projects. Usually I listen to critical role or programming podcasts but I often stop listening and find out that 30 minutes went by and I have no idea what they are talking about cause I've been lost in thoughts.
Music seems to interfere much less but I'm mostly listening to instrumental. Also going to a new place takes focus so there's a big difference compared to going back.
Music seems to interfere much less but I'm mostly listening to instrumental. Also going to a new place takes focus so there's a big difference compared to going back.
Lots of writers are also runners.
But if you’re collecting walking-thinking connections I’ll add: Kahneman mentions somewhere that many of his ideas with Tversky emerged from long walks the two took together.
When I'm excited about an idea I have a compulsion to walk around in basically circles. I don't know exactly why but i assume when body enters such elavated alertness you have to let out steam somehow.
Otherwise, i prefer running as it to me gives more bang for the buck. It's crucial if you have a sedentary job to elevate your blood-circulation to be able work productively through the day. Regular anaerobic exercise seems quite ideal for that.
Otherwise, i prefer running as it to me gives more bang for the buck. It's crucial if you have a sedentary job to elevate your blood-circulation to be able work productively through the day. Regular anaerobic exercise seems quite ideal for that.
> When I'm excited about an idea I have a compulsion to walk around in basically circles
https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Worry_Room?file=Worry_Room_Th...
https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Worry_Room?file=Worry_Room_Th...
[deleted]
One phenomenon I noticed is that I spatially associate thoughts/ideas with where I was walking when those occurred. I read somewhere about the link between human brain structure and spatial recall or perception. I know this is vague but maybe someone knows a specific reference.
Now I’m feeling guilty for listening to audio books while walking instead of engaging in great thinking.
I listen to lectures on things that have nothing to do with my day job, and I love every minute of it. Listening to something you find interesting while walking is a delightful match.
Interesting indeed. Where can you find lectures that are far removed from, say, software engineering, but still provide solid new information without being either too superficial or too hard to grasp due to level of depth? I don't like to exercise but may be something like this would get me to go for walks.
I listen to the Great Courses catalog via Audible.
For example: I'm personally interested in archaeology & anthropology, and just finished this lecture series covering ancient mesoamerica: https://www.audible.com/pd/Maya-to-Aztec-Ancient-Mesoamerica...
48 lectures, ~23 hours. Loved it. Didn't spent a single minute the entire time thinking about anything even tangentially related to iptables, regular expressions, or why patch tuesday makes my eyelid twitch.
For example: I'm personally interested in archaeology & anthropology, and just finished this lecture series covering ancient mesoamerica: https://www.audible.com/pd/Maya-to-Aztec-Ancient-Mesoamerica...
48 lectures, ~23 hours. Loved it. Didn't spent a single minute the entire time thinking about anything even tangentially related to iptables, regular expressions, or why patch tuesday makes my eyelid twitch.
Thank you - this an area of interest for me as well (my mind wanders away trying to imagine the nitty-gritties of the lives of ancient folks). Will check it out.
Guilt isn't necessary. After all, there's no better time to give it a try than the present!
I find it productive even if I don't have a specific problem in mind. I find something almost indulgent about letting my mind wander over whatever work/personal/curiosity topics pop up.
I find it productive even if I don't have a specific problem in mind. I find something almost indulgent about letting my mind wander over whatever work/personal/curiosity topics pop up.
if i don't listen to something i'll just continue thinking about work or whatever other issues occupy my mind. i listen to fiction in particular to allow me to disengage from the worries of the day.
I believe this is the paper referenced[0].
[0]: https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/xlm-a0036577.pdf
[0]: https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/xlm-a0036577.pdf
This is why I built a walking desk. And funny thing is that, I have tested this that my dual n-back scores are marginally better when I do them while walking at the speeds of 1-1.5 km/h.
I built one, too. The only problem is it never remains where I left it. One time the police brought it back, as it had wandered into somebody else's home. Another time, I found it lying in an alley in a pool of machine oil and stinking of WD-40. I'm going to have to stick one of those Apple tracker thingies on it.
I'm always trying to figure out the ideal way of walking and inputting information into a computer. I purchased a twiddler 2 chording keyboard, but didn't enjoy the concept of figuring out and learning the ideal key mapping (the defaults are terrible). Talking to myself seems silly, but I'm starting to think it might be the ideal way of getting ideas down.
Stopping and pulling out pen and paper was too disruptive. My ideal would be a walking stick with a few chording buttons that would key off different tasks, like start recording, or the next vocal word with be a voice command.
Stopping and pulling out pen and paper was too disruptive. My ideal would be a walking stick with a few chording buttons that would key off different tasks, like start recording, or the next vocal word with be a voice command.
I've recently had some success with a GPD Micro PC, which fits in a back or jacket pocket and has a very thumb-typeable keyboard. It does require you to look at the screen, of course.
I've been using emacs through termux on my phone for this. It's surprisingly usable, but I'd rather have something that works seamlessly with walking.
I'm thinking something like a Zoom H1N field recorder might work for just recording all of my thoughts, but I'd really like it to be automatically transcribed, if not an interactive REPL environment.
I'm thinking something like a Zoom H1N field recorder might work for just recording all of my thoughts, but I'd really like it to be automatically transcribed, if not an interactive REPL environment.
yes, but you could always let it automatically be transcribed later by some speech to text engine or write a blog post or digital garden plant later.
Finally, proof that my dog is a genius! And not just the usual confirmation bias, because she really likes to walk.
related: "Perhaps the reason walking helps us think is that we evolved as persistence hunters."
https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1429535366705463298
https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1429535366705463298
I wonder if you can discern what type of problem a person is working on based on their path. For example if you give a person two good solutions to a problem but they can only pick one, would they naturally pace back and forth ?
what an interesting question! i'm trying to think of another example...
[deleted]
> Historically, however, walking has been the privilege of white men. Black men were likely to be arrested, or worse. Women just out for a walk were harassed, or worse.
Holy shit, so true, let me give you some internet points for being a good dog.
Holy shit, so true, let me give you some internet points for being a good dog.
Just don't this as an excuse to have walking conversations in an open floor plan office.
Can we, for a second, remember that walking-makes-thinking-easier is a classic ADHD/ASD symptom?
And that both ADHD and ASD have been linked to creative, deep thinking?
Charles Darwin, the #1 example in this article, has been long suspected to have had Asperger's (which we classify as ASD today)[1]; and had exhibited symptoms of ADHD (one makes the other more likely)[2].
That link is only a surprise to neurotypicals. The answer is in plain sight:
"On the link between great thinking and obsessive walking: it's ADHD/ASD!”
EDIT: the word obsessive alone should give a clue were to look.
While walking might make thinking easier for everyone, it might be outright necessary for people with conditions like ASD/ADHD.
Please consider this before hitting that downvote button.
Disclaimer: I'm a person with ASD, ADHD, and a PhD
[1]https://web.archive.org/web/20090221125332/http://www.telegr...
[2]https://www.masters-in-special-education.com/lists/5-histori...
And that both ADHD and ASD have been linked to creative, deep thinking?
Charles Darwin, the #1 example in this article, has been long suspected to have had Asperger's (which we classify as ASD today)[1]; and had exhibited symptoms of ADHD (one makes the other more likely)[2].
That link is only a surprise to neurotypicals. The answer is in plain sight:
"On the link between great thinking and obsessive walking: it's ADHD/ASD!”
EDIT: the word obsessive alone should give a clue were to look.
While walking might make thinking easier for everyone, it might be outright necessary for people with conditions like ASD/ADHD.
Please consider this before hitting that downvote button.
Disclaimer: I'm a person with ASD, ADHD, and a PhD
[1]https://web.archive.org/web/20090221125332/http://www.telegr...
[2]https://www.masters-in-special-education.com/lists/5-histori...
My first job out of college was in an office with a cubicle space floor. After a few weeks, I'd often pace around in a small space outside the main entrance when I'm thinking about a problem at work. People would ask if I'm ok. After ~3 months, I couldn't do any work in that office, so I quit.
I don't know if I have ADHD or not, but whenever I'm stuck at a coding problem or any sort of a creative problem (I do product design work as well), I have to walk. Otherwise I feel claustrophobic or about to have a panic attack. At the very least, I feel very agitated and have shortness of breath.
I'm coming to accept this about myself and after reading this article, I'll embrace walking as a mode for thinking and clearing my head more.
I don't know if I have ADHD or not, but whenever I'm stuck at a coding problem or any sort of a creative problem (I do product design work as well), I have to walk. Otherwise I feel claustrophobic or about to have a panic attack. At the very least, I feel very agitated and have shortness of breath.
I'm coming to accept this about myself and after reading this article, I'll embrace walking as a mode for thinking and clearing my head more.
When I worked in an open floor layout, I used to set my working hours to 2PM-10PM, while most of my coworkers were on 9AM-5PM or so.
This gave me an overlap of 3 hours to exchange information with my colleagues, and 5 hours to actually work when the office emptied out.
If you are wondering whether you have ADHD or not, I made a website where symptoms are described from a first-person POV[1]. It's 200+ memes/comics I found on the Net, and a lot of text going in-depth about them.
If you relate to a lot of these, treatment can improve your life.
However, if you find that whatever makes your life easier - walking while thinking, fidgeting/doodling in meetings and phone calls, etc - just do it. It's your life. No need to play it on hard mode.
[1] https://romankogan.net/adhd
This gave me an overlap of 3 hours to exchange information with my colleagues, and 5 hours to actually work when the office emptied out.
If you are wondering whether you have ADHD or not, I made a website where symptoms are described from a first-person POV[1]. It's 200+ memes/comics I found on the Net, and a lot of text going in-depth about them.
If you relate to a lot of these, treatment can improve your life.
However, if you find that whatever makes your life easier - walking while thinking, fidgeting/doodling in meetings and phone calls, etc - just do it. It's your life. No need to play it on hard mode.
[1] https://romankogan.net/adhd
> No need to play it on hard mode.
I love this sentiment. Thanks for this - I'm definitely going to use it going forward.
I love this sentiment. Thanks for this - I'm definitely going to use it going forward.
Thanks!
That the thinking I had when I started taking medication.
Do I need the meds? Irrelevant, and I already got through several decades of my life without them.
Do they make life easier? Absolutely.
Do I have a reason to keep making my life harder? Nope.
Another thought: all the resources and energy (including mental efforts) that are solvable by other, easily implementable means (from medication to changing the way you do things that works for you) — all that time and energy is stolen from your loved ones and people you care about.
Is the time spent doing Boring Difficult Task more valuable to you than time with your friends and family? Perhaps not. Then why choose to maximize the Boring Difficult time?
Fidget, walk, exercise, drink water, take breaks, take Monday off, hire a maid, order takeout, get therapy, get the right meds — it's your life, and you want to spend the most of it on things that matter.
And the time you spend trying hard to do things that are difficult for you is time and energy you can recover by taking the pain out of the process of doing them.
That the thinking I had when I started taking medication.
Do I need the meds? Irrelevant, and I already got through several decades of my life without them.
Do they make life easier? Absolutely.
Do I have a reason to keep making my life harder? Nope.
Another thought: all the resources and energy (including mental efforts) that are solvable by other, easily implementable means (from medication to changing the way you do things that works for you) — all that time and energy is stolen from your loved ones and people you care about.
Is the time spent doing Boring Difficult Task more valuable to you than time with your friends and family? Perhaps not. Then why choose to maximize the Boring Difficult time?
Fidget, walk, exercise, drink water, take breaks, take Monday off, hire a maid, order takeout, get therapy, get the right meds — it's your life, and you want to spend the most of it on things that matter.
And the time you spend trying hard to do things that are difficult for you is time and energy you can recover by taking the pain out of the process of doing them.
Hope you've found a company that values output rather than presence. I run a small company but given the last 18 months have had to come to grips with the idea that I might have to return to normal employment. Losing my freedom to go for a walk - or go to the gym to work through a problem - is a huge fear of mine.
I'm utterly convinced that long walks in the woods is my secret sauce and that without it I'll degrade as an engineer massively.
I'm utterly convinced that long walks in the woods is my secret sauce and that without it I'll degrade as an engineer massively.
I switched jobs after COVID hit, and I realized just how much of the presumed benefits of office culture didn't really exist.
On paper, my previous employer only valued impact, and employees were able to choose their own schedule.
But work from home was explicitly discouraged in very clear terms, and I have been pressured to increase the overlap in office time with my team "for my benefit". That coming from people responsible for my performance evaluation and making hiring decisions felt a lot like "...or else".
It is also for my benefit, I guess, that I got a seat between my manager and my team lead during an office move (open-floor layout). I didn't mind, because they are both excellent people, but it feels a bit weird in retrospect.
We are all remote until 2022 at the very least; I don't expect mandatory office presence 40 hr/week ever coming back.
At some point, the CEOs will have to come to terms with office space being a sunk cost; and either downside, or provide more space for people who do come into the office.
Having in-person discussions with many people at once is still a killer app for physical offices; latency issues inherently make videoconferencing clumsy. But two days a week should suffice for that, at best.
On paper, my previous employer only valued impact, and employees were able to choose their own schedule.
But work from home was explicitly discouraged in very clear terms, and I have been pressured to increase the overlap in office time with my team "for my benefit". That coming from people responsible for my performance evaluation and making hiring decisions felt a lot like "...or else".
It is also for my benefit, I guess, that I got a seat between my manager and my team lead during an office move (open-floor layout). I didn't mind, because they are both excellent people, but it feels a bit weird in retrospect.
We are all remote until 2022 at the very least; I don't expect mandatory office presence 40 hr/week ever coming back.
At some point, the CEOs will have to come to terms with office space being a sunk cost; and either downside, or provide more space for people who do come into the office.
Having in-person discussions with many people at once is still a killer app for physical offices; latency issues inherently make videoconferencing clumsy. But two days a week should suffice for that, at best.
> Can we, for a second, remember that walking-makes-thinking-easier is a classic ADHD/ASD symptom?
Is there scientific evidence supporting this link?
Is there scientific evidence supporting this link?
Yes, it's literally one of the diagnostic criteria [1].
Pacing is a form of stimming. It's something that people with ASD might need to do to feel comfortable while thinking.
There are other forms of stimming that aren't as socially acceptable, but even this one is heavily restricted in a school setting.
A child that gets up to pace around the classroom to think better will be reprimanded; the option to take a walk outside is outright not available.
This is why raising awareness is important. It costs nothing to allow people who need to walk while thinking to do just that, yet the society disallows it.
[1] https://www.healthline.com/health/autism/stimming
Pacing is a form of stimming. It's something that people with ASD might need to do to feel comfortable while thinking.
There are other forms of stimming that aren't as socially acceptable, but even this one is heavily restricted in a school setting.
A child that gets up to pace around the classroom to think better will be reprimanded; the option to take a walk outside is outright not available.
This is why raising awareness is important. It costs nothing to allow people who need to walk while thinking to do just that, yet the society disallows it.
[1] https://www.healthline.com/health/autism/stimming
"Historically, however, walking has been the privilege of white men." Come on...
Anyway, Nietzsche used to walk before writing like Darwin
Long time ago I read that walking or taking a shower make your thinking more effective because it somehow enables automation mode and allow to be more focused
Anyway, Nietzsche used to walk before writing like Darwin
Long time ago I read that walking or taking a shower make your thinking more effective because it somehow enables automation mode and allow to be more focused
Hunter gatherers (who mostly aren't white) probably do way more walking than most modern people.
He’s talking about walking to leisurely ideation, not walking and running to survive lol.
The Australian indigenous peoples walked 9 miles a day (men) and 5 miles a day (women).
So the men left the women behind? Or the women weren't allowed to walk as much? We need to close that mile gap!
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For millennia, the wealthy 1% rode and everyone else walked.
For many more millennia everyone walked everywhere...
But it wasn't "thinking" that obtained that wealth.
> Long time ago I read that walking or taking a shower make your thinking more effective because it somehow enables automation mode and allow to be more focused
They mention it quite a lot in the "Learning how to learn" coursera course. They call it the "diffuse mode", by opposition with the "focused mode".
The course was quite interesting and easy to digest.
They mention it quite a lot in the "Learning how to learn" coursera course. They call it the "diffuse mode", by opposition with the "focused mode".
The course was quite interesting and easy to digest.
What an extremely dumb statement. When you think this guy is an anthropologist...
> Jeremy DeSilva is an anthropologist at Dartmouth College. He is part of the research team that discovered and described two ancient members of the human family tree—Australopithecus sediba and Homo naledi.
> Jeremy DeSilva is an anthropologist at Dartmouth College. He is part of the research team that discovered and described two ancient members of the human family tree—Australopithecus sediba and Homo naledi.
It shows that he doesn't practice science, despite his profession.
Often new angles of thought come to me when walking.
Also, as others have aptly pointed out, people who are not wealthy are in fact the ones who will end up doing the most walking.
People who gravitate towards using the word privilege ... just yikes.
Also, as others have aptly pointed out, people who are not wealthy are in fact the ones who will end up doing the most walking.
People who gravitate towards using the word privilege ... just yikes.
Poor walk to survive and work—often hungry, stressed or with a goal in mind. Goes without saying that this is different from strolling a private residence with the freedom to ruminate.
It is true, in the sense that white men were the class that was privileged enough to have the free time to walk and think. Not all, but those who did were predominantly white.
What's a bit disgusting is that yes the privileged nature of thinking is of course accurate, and all the time before the 19th century was very oppressive to the women and other groups, but that's not quite relevant to the story of walking being good for thought. It's like in the USSR where Physics textbooks had to be prefaced with quotes from Lenin and Marx just to check off the current political agenda checkmarks and allow the otherwise completely unrelated to politics text to get published.
This statement is a bit broad and thus debatable in overall accuracy, but it is based on something real. It is probably overly centered on the western and white-centric world, since being white or not doesn't even come into question in many other parts of the world. But in the US/Europe...
Women have been, for valid reasons and patriarchal overprotectiveness, been trained to feel vulnerable and exposed when walking outside. Always half-focused on who may be looking at them or tailing them, it takes away the mental freedom needed for perambulatory reflection.
Black men, brown men, immigrants, similarly, have over time faced a variety of hate crimes and false incarceration, that they must again often pay attention to their perceived "suspiciousness" factor, such as wandering around late at night with a hoodie on, or idly staring into a park where kids may be playing, lest they be mistaken for a latent criminal and get apprehended or worse.
So "walking has been the privilege of white men" is a bit of an extreme, but "justifiably walking thoughts free with impunity" is indeed the privilege of white men in the lands of white men.
Women have been, for valid reasons and patriarchal overprotectiveness, been trained to feel vulnerable and exposed when walking outside. Always half-focused on who may be looking at them or tailing them, it takes away the mental freedom needed for perambulatory reflection.
Black men, brown men, immigrants, similarly, have over time faced a variety of hate crimes and false incarceration, that they must again often pay attention to their perceived "suspiciousness" factor, such as wandering around late at night with a hoodie on, or idly staring into a park where kids may be playing, lest they be mistaken for a latent criminal and get apprehended or worse.
So "walking has been the privilege of white men" is a bit of an extreme, but "justifiably walking thoughts free with impunity" is indeed the privilege of white men in the lands of white men.
> Women have been, for valid reasons and patriarchal overprotectiveness, been trained to feel vulnerable and exposed when walking outside.
Been trained?
“10 Hours of Walking in NYC as a Woman”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A
Been trained?
“10 Hours of Walking in NYC as a Woman”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A
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Yep, looks like "getting trained by valid reasons" to me.
>This statement is a bit broad and thus debatable in overall accuracy
the statement is very broad and as such laughable. Basically it implies history is something that has existed in the last few hundred years in the Americas.
It's ridiculous enough it could easily fit in a satirical skit.
>"justifiably walking thoughts free with impunity" is indeed the privilege of white men in the lands of white men
- maybe lose the 'thoughts' there
yes, I can agree that was what was meant and it is correct, it was just phrased so badly that it should prompt guffaws of laughter instead of nods of agreement.
the statement is very broad and as such laughable. Basically it implies history is something that has existed in the last few hundred years in the Americas.
It's ridiculous enough it could easily fit in a satirical skit.
>"justifiably walking thoughts free with impunity" is indeed the privilege of white men in the lands of white men
- maybe lose the 'thoughts' there
yes, I can agree that was what was meant and it is correct, it was just phrased so badly that it should prompt guffaws of laughter instead of nods of agreement.
You can choose to laugh at someone for misphrasing something, or you could just apply charity and move on…
it's a sentence in an article, not a typo and not a quick comment on HN, I have to assume a good amount of thought went into it.
im fairly certain white men can't do the "idly staring into a park where kids may be playing" thing either
“Come on…” said every person uncomfortable with the brutal history of race relations and living in denial about its long term effects.
I think the "come on" is justified because the article doesn't even expand on it. It brings up race out of nowhere and then trails off somewhere else. It just feels like a grab for woke points.
I'm not uncomfortable with it, just past it. My family's always been poor, and didn't oppress anyone. But, I do recognize that some did.
I don't see it today. In fact, in my home city, I'd argue there's more areas where a black could walk freely than a white.
But that's just city life and demographics in a shitty US city. In the world, walking is not a racebound privilege.
I don't see it today. In fact, in my home city, I'd argue there's more areas where a black could walk freely than a white.
But that's just city life and demographics in a shitty US city. In the world, walking is not a racebound privilege.
Ridiculous. Walkability is a key trait of affluent, nice neighborhoods.
There's plenty of research on this: https://www.brookings.edu/research/walk-this-waythe-economic...
Seems like the posters in this thread are more concerned with being hypersensitive about "wokeness" than reality.
"Poor people walk more, ergo this article gets it wrong" is the ultimate confluence of idiocy and privilege.
There's plenty of research on this: https://www.brookings.edu/research/walk-this-waythe-economic...
Seems like the posters in this thread are more concerned with being hypersensitive about "wokeness" than reality.
"Poor people walk more, ergo this article gets it wrong" is the ultimate confluence of idiocy and privilege.
You’re empirically wrong. Leisurely walking is a privilege of affluence.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6095595/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6095595/
46 students put into 2 unfamiliar neighborhoods in the UK with various a level of affluence, and "surprisingly" people feel more positive about more affluent area. This says nothing about how residents feel or how different from their own neighborhoods they were for the students. Put me in an unfamiliar area and I'll prefer it to be affluent too, even when I was quite low on the socioeconomic ladder.
Geez... Go walk around Fuller Park and tell me you're comfortable. Ask residents of Fuller Park if they're comfortable strolling around and ruminating.
Your empirical doesn't match my own.
I'm not calling your link untrue, just incomplete.
If you want to visit my hometown and give it a test, I'm more than happy to guide you.
But I also realize my experiences may have been rather different than those in other cities. It doesn't make either of us wrong.
I'm not calling your link untrue, just incomplete.
If you want to visit my hometown and give it a test, I'm more than happy to guide you.
But I also realize my experiences may have been rather different than those in other cities. It doesn't make either of us wrong.
Did you post the correct study? This paper seems more about mental state than any race/gender type research. e.g.
"In particular, this study aimed to explore how the participants’ pre-existing levels of non-clinical depression, anxiety, persecutory feelings and personal resilience influence the in situ judgments they make about the contrasting urban environments."
"In particular, this study aimed to explore how the participants’ pre-existing levels of non-clinical depression, anxiety, persecutory feelings and personal resilience influence the in situ judgments they make about the contrasting urban environments."
Did you read any of the study? It's about the respective mental states of walking through good and bad neighborhoods.
Very poor reading comprehension from the posters in this thread.
"Forty-six student participants walked in groups through 2 urban neighbourhoods, separated by a park, in the North West of England, noting responses at pre-determined stops. Significant differences existed in participants’ sense of trust and threat between the 2 neighbourhoods along with differences in perceived resident wealth and sentiments expressed"
Very poor reading comprehension from the posters in this thread.
"Forty-six student participants walked in groups through 2 urban neighbourhoods, separated by a park, in the North West of England, noting responses at pre-determined stops. Significant differences existed in participants’ sense of trust and threat between the 2 neighbourhoods along with differences in perceived resident wealth and sentiments expressed"
Or maybe, and this might sound outlandish, we are tired of the tendrils of this insidious beast infecting every single thing. Walking. Walking? Yes, walking. "Come on" is right.
Tendrils of an insidious beast? A bit dramatic?
What are you including in said “insidious beast?” Any mention of a racial past is representative on an evil monster seeking to pervade all culture?
I think you’ve been watching too much hentai.
What are you including in said “insidious beast?” Any mention of a racial past is representative on an evil monster seeking to pervade all culture?
I think you’ve been watching too much hentai.
Dramatic? Maybe. But definitely not an overstatement, and nowhere near as dramatic as ideas like all social dynamics are oppressor/oppressed social dynamics, or that for example black people cannot walk around and therefore white people have privilege to walk around and therefore think and reason.
I don't mind mention of a racial past, as long as it is actually applicable. Want to talk about slavery in the Americas? Jim Crow and segregation? European colonialism? The Maori genocide on the Moriori people? Sure, we can talk about it. But Walking? Yes, walking apparently. An attempt to cram racism into every facet of life, even where it didn't exist and doesn't belong, is absolutely 100% and evil monster seeking to pervade all culture.
I don't watch hentai.
I don't mind mention of a racial past, as long as it is actually applicable. Want to talk about slavery in the Americas? Jim Crow and segregation? European colonialism? The Maori genocide on the Moriori people? Sure, we can talk about it. But Walking? Yes, walking apparently. An attempt to cram racism into every facet of life, even where it didn't exist and doesn't belong, is absolutely 100% and evil monster seeking to pervade all culture.
I don't watch hentai.
"or that for example black people cannot walk around and therefore white people have privilege to walk around and therefore think and reason."
Dude... go walk around in Compton or Fuller Park and tell me you're able to ruminate like Darwin LOL.
You're trying to ELIMINATE race from every conversation because of your sensitivity. No one is "cramming" race anywhere.
Dude... go walk around in Compton or Fuller Park and tell me you're able to ruminate like Darwin LOL.
You're trying to ELIMINATE race from every conversation because of your sensitivity. No one is "cramming" race anywhere.
My words exactly, I even considered leaving a comment on the issue but decided to leave it to you I guess.
The author of this should've taken a walk before writing this, you've got to trudge half way through to finally get to the point, which is apparently "someone who walks to think walked to think on why we walk to think"
The author of this should've taken a walk before writing this, you've got to trudge half way through to finally get to the point, which is apparently "someone who walks to think walked to think on why we walk to think"
A great many of my female friends in [Asian country] basically expect to be harassed or asked to go to a "hotel" at least once when they're out and about.
It's easy to roll our eyes at statements like these but that just feels like adding on to the issue.
It's easy to roll our eyes at statements like these but that just feels like adding on to the issue.
lithub is good