India’s caste system remains entrenched, 75 years after independence(economist.com)
economist.com
India’s caste system remains entrenched, 75 years after independence
https://www.economist.com/asia/2021/09/11/indias-caste-system-remains-entrenched-75-years-after-independence
85 comments
I am more optimistic that the caste system will die out within our lifetime. Almost all the younger people I know in India are on dating apps and they are dating people who they would not have met otherwise. I do not know how it is in villages of India , which are stuck in medieval times, but kids in small towns and cities have found sexual liberation in dating apps. If the economy of India improves such that kids are less dependent on parental money , you will see the caste system die out soon.
Try Tindering in any big Indian city:)
Demands are rather specific:
- ICS grade 3, seeking ICS, or a practicing lawyer
- MBA Columbia blah blah blah, glads outside top 100 need not apply
- Or even simpler: "seeking computer engineer, programmer, Java consultant for marriage"
The last almost fell me out of the chair.
Demands are rather specific:
- ICS grade 3, seeking ICS, or a practicing lawyer
- MBA Columbia blah blah blah, glads outside top 100 need not apply
- Or even simpler: "seeking computer engineer, programmer, Java consultant for marriage"
The last almost fell me out of the chair.
Yes, I also find it infuriating that Indians are using Tinder to seek out conscientious partners.
This is definitely worse than the American use-case of Tinder, which focuses on factors of critical importance, such as a great ass and kinky proclivities.
This is definitely worse than the American use-case of Tinder, which focuses on factors of critical importance, such as a great ass and kinky proclivities.
The rough analog to caste in America is race, and you'd better believe that it influences Tinder matches. So, yeah, it's pretty bad here too.
> The last almost fell me out of the chair.
Do you fit the requirements?
Do you fit the requirements?
I think that the garbage collector in Java is quiet famous.
That's not true in all cities. I'm from Tamil Nadu and even in Chennai which is the most liberal city in Tamil Nadu don't have the dating app culture like you mentioned. I heard Bangalore is ahead on this dating culture.
I most certainly know that cast system will not die out within our lifetime since I have friends who still cling on to caste and they are not from villages or small towns. It will take more than one generation to see any meaningful progress sadly.
I most certainly know that cast system will not die out within our lifetime since I have friends who still cling on to caste and they are not from villages or small towns. It will take more than one generation to see any meaningful progress sadly.
I look at western society with a fairly rigid class system (wealthy, middle and poor classes) that doesn’t get talked about but it’s very real.
Huh? I think you've just missed out the last 120 years of western history. I could agree if you've said: It doesn'T get talked about enough.
See the newest class-y development: https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-masking-of-the-servant-...
See the newest class-y development: https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-masking-of-the-servant-...
I wrote that it doesn’t get talked about which isn’t precise.
It’s largely ignored by most, dismissed or downvoted, and our society tends to pretend it’s not a problem.
It’s largely ignored by most, dismissed or downvoted, and our society tends to pretend it’s not a problem.
I agree that the class issues are given disproportionately little attention compared to other issues like race, despite the fact that a poor white guy with no connections has it way harder than a rich black woman from a family like Thomas Sowell. However I don't know enough about India to say that it's comparable to the US in that regard. At least we can say that they seem to be much more overt in India (based on this discussion). In the US people may have the same requirements of XYZ education and income, but aren't as explicit about it. For example, I would prefer being with someone of similar education and income, but I can imagine exceptions and on top of that, education and income are only parts of what determine class. Again, I don't know enough about India to say how this compares to caste.
I wasn’t making a comparison.
I’m just pointing out that in the west, class is almost a verboten discussion.
I’m just pointing out that in the west, class is almost a verboten discussion.
In France it isn't.
We have a strong class system, based on location and studies that is being eroded by the tech industry.
Talking about it, making fun of it, or openly acknowledging it is the norm.
We have a strong class system, based on location and studies that is being eroded by the tech industry.
Talking about it, making fun of it, or openly acknowledging it is the norm.
>despite the fact that a poor white guy with no connections has it way harder than a rich black woman from a family like Thomas Sowell.
I think it's interesting that this comparison is the metric on which you come to the conclusion that class is more of a determinant to outcome than race. I dare to say that it's a sort of "Obama Fallacy" in action.
I think it's interesting that this comparison is the metric on which you come to the conclusion that class is more of a determinant to outcome than race. I dare to say that it's a sort of "Obama Fallacy" in action.
I saw an Indian newspaper in UAE (back in 2009 I believe) with a matrimonial section where people were described as having a "wheatish complexion".
To your last question, yes, those ads haven't changed one bit.
India vedas talk about “varna” - class system based on ability & skills, not caste system. Modern Indian caste system was introduced by British to divide and conquer. Economist with a long history of Hindu phobia and in the vein of colonial British rake it up every now and then.
Caste comes from Spanish casta, no equivalent term exists in sanskrit for this.
jatis have been endogymous for ~2000 years according to genetic studies. nowhere else on earth has this level of genetic segregation within a single region.
jatis yes, but not segregation, classification yes, not hierarchy on steroids until the british came in
Yeah right, every damn thing is because of someone else. Start taking responsibility for your actions.
Of course its a societal problem in India, but to root out caste, we have to understand where it came from first and then work together of making people equal. Whilst Christian missionaries from Britain keep coming into India exploiting caste to gain conversions which further creates divisions.
When we understand the reasons, we can address the problem.
When we understand the reasons, we can address the problem.
yeah bro, dalits just really love cleaning waste
Of course its a societal problem in India, but to root out caste, we have to understand where it came from first and then work together of making people equal. Whilst Christian missionaries from Britain keep coming into India exploiting caste to gain conversions which further creates divisions.
When we understand the reasons, we can address the problems
When we understand the reasons, we can address the problems
Irrelevant where the word comes from. You're indulging in revisionism to make yourself look good. Caste system has been in existence for no less than 2000 years.
Not sure where you read these information, but makes no sense.
You don't "read" these type of information. You make them up to look good.
I don't know why this is being downvoted; it's a true and salient point. The only nation in which European intercession seems not to have warped native social structure for the worst is Japan, and only because it's hard to get much worse than "allowing for summary execution of lower caste individuals for small slights". In Africa, Asia, and North and South America, it's easy to point out many examples of Western "involvement" leading to horrific human rights abuses based on social class that would not have existed before.
Old habits die hard.
We abolished slavery and then replaced it with Jim Crow laws:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws
We have the biggest concentration camps in the world for primarily people of color.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_Crime_Control_and_Law_...
https://www.aclu.org/issues/smart-justice/mass-incarceration
“ Despite making up close to 5% of the global population, the U.S. has nearly 25% of the world’s prison population. Since 1970, our incarcerated population has increased by 700% – 2.3 million people in jail and prison today, far outpacing population growth and crime.
One out of every three Black boys born today can expect to go to prison in his lifetime, as can one of every six Latino boys—compared to one of every 17 white boys.”
We abolished slavery and then replaced it with Jim Crow laws:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws
We have the biggest concentration camps in the world for primarily people of color.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_Crime_Control_and_Law_...
https://www.aclu.org/issues/smart-justice/mass-incarceration
“ Despite making up close to 5% of the global population, the U.S. has nearly 25% of the world’s prison population. Since 1970, our incarcerated population has increased by 700% – 2.3 million people in jail and prison today, far outpacing population growth and crime.
One out of every three Black boys born today can expect to go to prison in his lifetime, as can one of every six Latino boys—compared to one of every 17 white boys.”
You think that's bad? Wait until you hear about the horrible service I got from my local garage the other day. Took my car in for a routine service and the staff were completely unprofessional and rude. Didn't do the job I asked of them and then had the gall to charge a fortune for it. What a rip-off!
Just thought I'd mention that, since the theme is apparently "random complaints which have nothing whatsoever to do with the linked article".
Just thought I'd mention that, since the theme is apparently "random complaints which have nothing whatsoever to do with the linked article".
We are reminded daily in the USA that 9-11 was not about outside terror but inside terror trying to grab power through injecting fear into a system to attempt to over throw it using the effing same BS that stared the civil war
Pathetic response. The OP gave context to the human condition that allows this and another example where such problems are entrenched.
But I do hope you find a better garage to get your car serviced at.
All the best.
But I do hope you find a better garage to get your car serviced at.
All the best.
Related tangent: this is why the U.S. foreign policy of "winning hearts and minds" is such garbage.
Cultures change, but at much lower frequency than the U.S. government's capability to do more than vaguely encourage.
Cultures change, but at much lower frequency than the U.S. government's capability to do more than vaguely encourage.
It's a bit sad that this is so down voted. I like to come to HN to read a bit and discuss but each time I come I get reminded of the prevailing demographic and it sucks
It would definitely be nice if we had less crime. Anyway, this is not relates to the article. Go preach somewhere else.
The fish is the last to know it lives in water.
The crime self perpetuates by breaking up families (a parent is in prison), using the criminal record to exclude people from jobs leading them to resort to... crimes
The nation can collectively pursue different solutions to increase productivity as well as its own domestic security.
The nation can collectively pursue different solutions to increase productivity as well as its own domestic security.
you need to dig deeper to find out both the internal and external families as to why black families got broken...
are you sure I'm the one that needs to be convinced of that?
its clear we both would reach the conclusion that a more holistic solution is necessary than incarceration and the associated marginalizing
its clear we both would reach the conclusion that a more holistic solution is necessary than incarceration and the associated marginalizing
"One out of every three Black boys born today can expect to go to prison in his lifetime"
You're literally repeating a White-Nationalist talking point
Disgusting
You're literally repeating a White-Nationalist talking point
Disgusting
I think it would be as you say if it included "because of race". But it sounded more like it implied "because of systemic racism/classism"
>We have the biggest concentration camps in the world for primarily people of color.
Hyperbole much.
You should worry more about how such a small portion of the population can commit so much crime per capita, much more than any other demographic, even accounting for some bias of law enforcement.
Hyperbole much.
You should worry more about how such a small portion of the population can commit so much crime per capita, much more than any other demographic, even accounting for some bias of law enforcement.
> The forebears of nearly two-thirds of India’s Catholics are Dalits who converted to escape stigma. Yet among four cardinals and 31 archbishops, only two are of Dalit origin.
(Rest of it aside) that specifically doesn't seem necessarily that bad? If many of them aren't exactly devout Catholics ('converted to escape') then it seems reasonable they wouldn't (perhaps even want to!) reach high office. And there's perhaps a different stigma surrounding converts anyway, that's nothing specific to what they converted from or their status within it.
(Rest of it aside) that specifically doesn't seem necessarily that bad? If many of them aren't exactly devout Catholics ('converted to escape') then it seems reasonable they wouldn't (perhaps even want to!) reach high office. And there's perhaps a different stigma surrounding converts anyway, that's nothing specific to what they converted from or their status within it.
What you say makes sense. But some of these people are really poor.
Among the "racist" people in the US, many are actually "classist". That also runs high in Indian society.
In my experience Christians are much more forward thinking and secular than other minorities in India. They live peacefully and blend very well with the Hindus. Even most of their names, outside of Goa, Mumbai, etc., are derived from Sanskrit, Tamil, Bengali roots depending on the region. A lot of Indian Christians will have only one name, i.e. middle name or first name identifying their Christian identity. Sometimes they often just ommit the Christian part except in official documents.
Anyway, this is a good sign totally as you say, but that is true in prosperous regions and/or households.
For backward regions and poor families, I am not sure if people will even let them hold religious offices.
Btw, even Christians can claim backward castes benefits if their ancestors happened to belong to a so called lower caste when they were not Christians.
Among the "racist" people in the US, many are actually "classist". That also runs high in Indian society.
In my experience Christians are much more forward thinking and secular than other minorities in India. They live peacefully and blend very well with the Hindus. Even most of their names, outside of Goa, Mumbai, etc., are derived from Sanskrit, Tamil, Bengali roots depending on the region. A lot of Indian Christians will have only one name, i.e. middle name or first name identifying their Christian identity. Sometimes they often just ommit the Christian part except in official documents.
Anyway, this is a good sign totally as you say, but that is true in prosperous regions and/or households.
For backward regions and poor families, I am not sure if people will even let them hold religious offices.
Btw, even Christians can claim backward castes benefits if their ancestors happened to belong to a so called lower caste when they were not Christians.
> In my experience Christians are much more forward thinking and secular than other minorities in India.
Sadly, not by much.
Indian Christians have adopted many of the vices of the West ( the rates of divorce among Indian Christians are higher than Indians), but in terms of a broader outlook, I have seen this only in the sub-category of those living in big cities, and predominantly english-speaking and educated.
The Christians in rural areas continue to hold on to caste, despite all efforts. In some ways, the Church structures themselves are casteist, and bar people from being part of it.
Sadly, not by much.
Indian Christians have adopted many of the vices of the West ( the rates of divorce among Indian Christians are higher than Indians), but in terms of a broader outlook, I have seen this only in the sub-category of those living in big cities, and predominantly english-speaking and educated.
The Christians in rural areas continue to hold on to caste, despite all efforts. In some ways, the Church structures themselves are casteist, and bar people from being part of it.
In India, if one converts to a Christian, one is supposed to 'escaped' the caste system, and therefore loses all the benefits of affirmation action.
This is especially true of non-Dalits but still lower castes.
The reality however is that the person is still shunned in their tight social circles.
So, for such individuals (and I know personally of many) -- they do not change their names, in fact they do not even marry by Christian traditions publicly because they may get outed.
There really is no number of how many such 'secret Christians' are there, but I would guess this number will be in the lakhs...
This is especially true of non-Dalits but still lower castes.
The reality however is that the person is still shunned in their tight social circles.
So, for such individuals (and I know personally of many) -- they do not change their names, in fact they do not even marry by Christian traditions publicly because they may get outed.
There really is no number of how many such 'secret Christians' are there, but I would guess this number will be in the lakhs...
Caste is so insane, in western diaspora communities its thankfully starting to die out though. My generation (3rd generation in the west) aren't really educated enough on traditions to know about caste or care.
over 90% of american indians are brahmin anyway https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/getting-america-...
I believe IBM (or Intel) plus some other Western companies have seen caste-based discrimination lawsuits emerge, whereas a couple decades ago that wouldn't have been the case.
The idea that the diaspora doesn't keep this stuff alive is false.
The idea that the diaspora doesn't keep this stuff alive is false.
A lot of tech workers are first generation immigrants though, I'm talking about more entrenched immigrant families that are 2 or 3 generations deep
You know what's really sad about this? The caste system prevent a huge part of the population to contribute to the demographic dividends that made China, SK and Japan the powerhouses they are. India is taking the same path as Turkey and South Africa, and as long as the mixture of the caste system and the religious troubles they have is not fixed, even the Brahmins will pay the price (not even taking into consideration the climate drift).
> The caste system prevent a huge part of the population to contribute to the demographic dividends
Over the years India has implemented several affirmative action programs (locally called "reservations") that ensures a more level playing field.
India has actually done reasonably well economically since 1995. Unless you can point to specific studies that correlate India's less-than-spectacular economic performance to the caste system directly, this is a fairly baseless statement. You only have to take a quick look at the last 10 year average GDP.
Over the years India has implemented several affirmative action programs (locally called "reservations") that ensures a more level playing field.
India has actually done reasonably well economically since 1995. Unless you can point to specific studies that correlate India's less-than-spectacular economic performance to the caste system directly, this is a fairly baseless statement. You only have to take a quick look at the last 10 year average GDP.
Per capita GDP of India is 142 out of 189 countries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_State_Hunger_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_rankings_of_Indi...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_State_Hunger_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_rankings_of_Indi...
Can someone help me understand identity politics in India? There are a lot of things I don't understand, for example, there are some people that find it really important to tell others that the caste system doesn't exist, or is like really sensitive to anything negative said about India. Is that just run-of-the-mill nationalism? Because if so, it is hilarious when it's another country's nationalism.
Caste system, at least where I live (which I believe to be fairly progressive part of country, as my travels have revealed there are worse places) is like a strong undercurrent to the social psychosis. It is not obvious to the newcomer, and we appear a very amalgamated bunch, all working in same company, going to same school and so on. But then you live here for a while, go sufficiently wide and deep, and then you feel it, and realise it is too strong to change in 3 generations.
I didn't realise for a long time, but I looks back and see that somehow, upper caste kids always stuck together. There parents always had social events together, and even though we shared same society, other families weren't invited. Every 'class' has to have their own very public, very loud 'holidays'. Caste based marriages are pretty obvious, though that is changing slowly. People have biases in simple places, like simply knowing someone's surname means you can put them in a caste/category and then first impression is already made.
Things are changing, definitely, but slowly and not always in right direction. The 'reservation' or quotas in college admissions, government jobs and so on, created to make a level playing field is creating a new privileged class that is 'lower caste' in name only. This is creating new divide and I'm not sure thatcan be changed because suggesting otherwise is political suicide.
I didn't realise for a long time, but I looks back and see that somehow, upper caste kids always stuck together. There parents always had social events together, and even though we shared same society, other families weren't invited. Every 'class' has to have their own very public, very loud 'holidays'. Caste based marriages are pretty obvious, though that is changing slowly. People have biases in simple places, like simply knowing someone's surname means you can put them in a caste/category and then first impression is already made.
Things are changing, definitely, but slowly and not always in right direction. The 'reservation' or quotas in college admissions, government jobs and so on, created to make a level playing field is creating a new privileged class that is 'lower caste' in name only. This is creating new divide and I'm not sure thatcan be changed because suggesting otherwise is political suicide.
Its very easy to understand. Broadly speaking, in any culture you'll find two types of people. 1. Those who question existing systems and accept the historical truths even if it doesn't paint their own identity in good light. 2. Those who will claim that their identity is awesome and will deny or shift blame for past injustices. You can see this literally everywhere.
yeah, when you say it like that it does seem consistent across cultures. the main thing for me is that I am unfamiliar with the connotations behind different last names in India, and I also cannot tell Indian subcultures apart visually if there are more nuanced ethnicities but I am becoming aware that this level of nuance is also at play
It is defending the current Modi government and hyper-nationalism combined with a bit of ostrich behaviour. The govt. talks about "policy" but in reality elections are fought on caste. It is called "caste equation" and requires delicate balancing act to not antagonise anyone at the same time pleasing everyone. It is playing in Indian MSM right now as important state elections are approaching next year.
Seems like the caste system is really hard to shake. Reminds me of this podcast on how it still rears its head in US tech companies: https://www.npr.org/2020/10/14/923736245/caste-arrives-in-si...
HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24952698
HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24952698
This is a real risk when working with offshore teams in India.
We had to get involved in the interview process multiple times as the talent is absolutely there. But left to their own devices a lot of the sites ended up hiring friends or "cousins".
I'm not sure if that came down to Caste or just "you scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours" but it was far from meritocratic.
We had to get involved in the interview process multiple times as the talent is absolutely there. But left to their own devices a lot of the sites ended up hiring friends or "cousins".
I'm not sure if that came down to Caste or just "you scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours" but it was far from meritocratic.
I am not sure what type of companies you have worked with. But I have never seen this happening.
There are times when a client selected person is not taken in but the reason has never been what you have described.
Please do not generalise.
There are times when a client selected person is not taken in but the reason has never been what you have described.
Please do not generalise.
The talent is definitely there but working with Indian startups - Zomato, Flipkart, Ola, Byjus, etc. More interesting work for people than outsourced projects. Try finding alumni from Indian startups and they’d know how to hire and likely have connections with talented individuals to start.
There is definitely caste system in hiring process. If you take any big company operating in India, and you will most certainly find the caste system replicated in the corporate structure in India. The Brahmin caste dominates the corporate hierarchies and are the perpetrators of this system, typically through favoritism and through their early advantage (but their grip is loosening up slowly).
Then dont use offshore.
Hard to generalize about a country of over a billion people but in many areas of India there is a strong sense of “keep money in the family” which is why they like to hire their cousins. That’s also why even marrying first cousins is so common in certain areas. In the south, about 25% of people marry their first cousin.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#India
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#India
This makes me shudder to think of the genetic damage being done to these people. The rule should always be fresh genes to keep the lineage healthy.
and how does the govt try to solve? by reservation quota. give college seats , jobs, promotions, etc for people with lower scores and their children and their children & forever.
you don't understand social justice, do you ?
I'd argue based on the comment, that @tsjq understands social justice quite well, including the unshakable truth that you cannot use institutionalized racism and bias as a remedy to racism and bias.
Doing so not only perpetuates the evils of the discrimination, but amps it up to eleven, because now it is done with the full force and power of the government.
There is no policy basis more evil and counter-productive than the left's modern concept of "social justice", which is hateful and unjustifiably retributive at its heart. (Viz the left's current efforts to eliminate the truly blind auditions used in orchestras - according to the SJWs, merit must not be allowed to allocate job slots to the most capable and talented. That's the path to Harrison Bergeron...)
Doing so not only perpetuates the evils of the discrimination, but amps it up to eleven, because now it is done with the full force and power of the government.
There is no policy basis more evil and counter-productive than the left's modern concept of "social justice", which is hateful and unjustifiably retributive at its heart. (Viz the left's current efforts to eliminate the truly blind auditions used in orchestras - according to the SJWs, merit must not be allowed to allocate job slots to the most capable and talented. That's the path to Harrison Bergeron...)
It's interesting for this white american guy to learn a little bit about other cultures' prejudicial tribal structures. (That's my attempt at neutral language for what american sociologists call "structural racism".)
I suspect it's trickier to learn about those structures in one's own culture.
I suspect it's trickier to learn about those structures in one's own culture.
As Mark Twain said "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts."
Once you get out and about you have a new lens to look at your own society too - another viewpoint shines light into your blind spots.
Once you get out and about you have a new lens to look at your own society too - another viewpoint shines light into your blind spots.
I could see it work out when I was in the DFW area how one group treated another group and how several managers treated me
there is a cream segment of the Dalits and certain castes that got categorized as 'lower' based on their influence at the time of Indian Independence that benefited from the affirmative actions, and they are now as influential as 'brahmins'
their progeny continue to reap the benefits at the cost of the rest of their own caste members. This segment actually rules India - the Brahmins continue to hang in there, but don't really rule at the top, though they are there.
A good example if you look is the Tamil Nadu government - primarily run by folk from castes who were at the forefront of the social reformation, but were not really low castes to begin with. Now, with power for nearly a century, they have strengthened their grips tighter.
their progeny continue to reap the benefits at the cost of the rest of their own caste members. This segment actually rules India - the Brahmins continue to hang in there, but don't really rule at the top, though they are there.
A good example if you look is the Tamil Nadu government - primarily run by folk from castes who were at the forefront of the social reformation, but were not really low castes to begin with. Now, with power for nearly a century, they have strengthened their grips tighter.
It's the standard cycle of revolution. Middle class convinces lower class to help overthrow upper class. Middle class becomes new upper class. Most successful from the lower class rise until they eventually become the new middle class, and begin to chafe against the upper class.
I wish I wasn't born here
Anyone have any good caste jokes ?
Someone please post an rfj on r/jokes and report back
The word "caste" comes from the Portuguese word "castus" which means clean and pure. No such word exists in any Hindu scripture and certainly Varna does not mean clean and pure. The Varna system was designated occupational duties based on character alone, yes there was conflict but it was only till the British adopted the word and used it to divide and rule people did it become a major problem.
It's even worse than that, over centuries the UK took trillions out of India to keep their world empire afloat. That's something that shames me as a Brit.
Caste system in India will not die till there is caste based reservation, which only seems to be expanding.
Those who benefit from the reservation have incentive to keep the caste system alive.
Those who do not benefit from caste based reservation develop resentment against those who benefit, furthering the caste based divide.
Due to the abuse there is no political will to change anything.
Those who benefit from the reservation have incentive to keep the caste system alive.
Those who do not benefit from caste based reservation develop resentment against those who benefit, furthering the caste based divide.
Due to the abuse there is no political will to change anything.
Quite eye-opening. I wonder how things are today.