Instagram has largely replaced TikTok in India(restofworld.org)
restofworld.org
Instagram has largely replaced TikTok in India
https://restofworld.org/2021/instagram-and-class-in-india/
63 comments
It's hard to re-create your following when the new platform goes out of its way to exclude you during its launch (Reels was launched in India days after tiktok was banned), heavily promoting upper caste creators. It's sort of like CEOs who got where they were because of their social networks from private schools and prestigious colleges - and seed money from daddy.
> But rather than court the same creators who had driven the Chinese company’s success, Facebook, Reels’ owner, kick-started its launch campaign by courting a set of influencers from upper-class backgrounds, including Komal Pandey, Kusha Kapila, and Ammy Virk: “A catalog of aspiring lifestyle [examples] for middle-class and upper-middle-class Indians,” was how Dr. Rahul Advani, a research fellow at the University College London, described the launch to Rest of World.
Facebook didn't know about popular tiktokers like the Mahtos, didn't care, or knew full well and specifically wanted to cater "rich lifestyle" content because it's better for selling ads, especially ads for expensive, high-profit-margin stuff.
> But rather than court the same creators who had driven the Chinese company’s success, Facebook, Reels’ owner, kick-started its launch campaign by courting a set of influencers from upper-class backgrounds, including Komal Pandey, Kusha Kapila, and Ammy Virk: “A catalog of aspiring lifestyle [examples] for middle-class and upper-middle-class Indians,” was how Dr. Rahul Advani, a research fellow at the University College London, described the launch to Rest of World.
Facebook didn't know about popular tiktokers like the Mahtos, didn't care, or knew full well and specifically wanted to cater "rich lifestyle" content because it's better for selling ads, especially ads for expensive, high-profit-margin stuff.
You seem to be conflating rich lifestyle with castes.
Sure, there are many wealthy individuals whobare from upper castes.
There are also equally wealthy people from castes across the spectrum.
Influencers are basically rich, urban, 90s gen people. Some of them are from upper castes, some are not.
Sure, there are many wealthy individuals whobare from upper castes.
There are also equally wealthy people from castes across the spectrum.
Influencers are basically rich, urban, 90s gen people. Some of them are from upper castes, some are not.
Is it not true that majority of rich people are upper caste though?
It depends, merchants are pretty rich and wouldn’t be considered upper caste.
You are mistaking caste for class. They are not the same. And Facebook and Instagram don't individually go around skimming every reel and asking people to be on their platform and denying others; it's open to all. Instagram Reels just puts video quality as a factor in recommending videos in people's feed, and it just so happens that the less privileged creators don't often manage to rise to those guidelines but those with better phones (with high-quality cameras) and internet do.
>specifically wanted to cater "rich lifestyle" content because it's better for selling ads, especially ads for expensive, high-profit-margin stuff
They don't have to choose between rich and poor audiences for ads. They have more than enough resources to push targeted ads to all kinds of demographics. They have no pragmatic advantage in filtering content for "lifestyle", since every individual user anyway has his own customized feed attuned to his interests. Even if they wanted to only cater to the rich, they won't gain much by cutting down on "poor" content that won't show up on their feed anyway.
>specifically wanted to cater "rich lifestyle" content because it's better for selling ads, especially ads for expensive, high-profit-margin stuff
They don't have to choose between rich and poor audiences for ads. They have more than enough resources to push targeted ads to all kinds of demographics. They have no pragmatic advantage in filtering content for "lifestyle", since every individual user anyway has his own customized feed attuned to his interests. Even if they wanted to only cater to the rich, they won't gain much by cutting down on "poor" content that won't show up on their feed anyway.
> You are mistaking caste for class. They are not the same.
While foreigners may confuse between caste and class, everyone in India knows that there is a high co-relation between caste and class (mobility), and that invariably higher castes are higher on the class hierarchy, among Hindus (the majority population in India). The rigidness of the caste hierarchy that prevented mobility in it (rising up in the caste), has had a modern spillover effect on India's class system too. Many caste supremacist believe that class equality is an attack on the caste system, and thus use this reasoning as a basis to attack the economic and consumerist aspirations of the lower caste.
E.g. Incidents of attack by upper castes on lower caste Hindus when they try to imitate Bollywood types wedding to highlight their better social status:
> “They told us that we had to take birth as upper caste people if we wanted to ride a horse. I pleaded with them that Aakash is an orphan and they allow the marriage procession to pass off peacefully, but they did not budge from their stand,” Khema told Gadh police in the complaint.
Source: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/rajkot/dalit-groom-...
There are many other such examples, where a lower caste is prevented from enjoying the benefits his economic class can afford him, by his castiest upper caste brethren.
While foreigners may confuse between caste and class, everyone in India knows that there is a high co-relation between caste and class (mobility), and that invariably higher castes are higher on the class hierarchy, among Hindus (the majority population in India). The rigidness of the caste hierarchy that prevented mobility in it (rising up in the caste), has had a modern spillover effect on India's class system too. Many caste supremacist believe that class equality is an attack on the caste system, and thus use this reasoning as a basis to attack the economic and consumerist aspirations of the lower caste.
E.g. Incidents of attack by upper castes on lower caste Hindus when they try to imitate Bollywood types wedding to highlight their better social status:
> “They told us that we had to take birth as upper caste people if we wanted to ride a horse. I pleaded with them that Aakash is an orphan and they allow the marriage procession to pass off peacefully, but they did not budge from their stand,” Khema told Gadh police in the complaint.
Source: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/rajkot/dalit-groom-...
There are many other such examples, where a lower caste is prevented from enjoying the benefits his economic class can afford him, by his castiest upper caste brethren.
You're divulging into a different area altogether. It's apparent the person I replied to genuinely wanted to refer to the overall less privileged demographic in his post in the context of Reels and its creators, not specifically to caste.
And they are not the same, however close and correlated you may feel they are.
And they are not the same, however close and correlated you may feel they are.
I was pointing out why it is so easy to confuse caste and class. You are thinking of the theory of caste system as per the religious texts, while I am talking about how it practically exists in India - it is an undeniable fact that the large majority of the poor in India are from the lower caste among Hindus, while those of the middle and upper class are majorly from the Hindu upper caste. While they are not the same, the actual incidents of class discrimination show how caste and class are unfortunately tied together in India, simply because caste supremacist (wrongly) believe class mobility upsets the legitimacy of the caste system in modern India. For them, the social aspiration of a lower caste to accumulate wealth and increase their social status, somehow de-legitimizes their own caste status in the rigidly enforced system where caste mobility is no longer practiced by today's Hindus.
I mean you are right. Instagram in India (maybe many more places?) has an upscale, fashionable image to it and thronged by celebrities and wannabes. TikTok was platform for subaltern voices so to speak.
So all in all one does not have to be slick fuck to be on TikTok and thats reason of popularity.
So all in all one does not have to be slick fuck to be on TikTok and thats reason of popularity.
I think the article's trying to convey that instagram has a more curated look and so by algo-design/human-design doesn't reward videos/reels that are shot on poor resolution phones and those that don't directly follow their guidelines for being promoted - these can be barriers for folks from marginalized communities and folks that have poor access to resources.
Tiktok on the other hand promoted your video to other users on the platform regardless of these 'requirements' and as a result those from poor/marginalized communities had the opportunity go viral and gain followers as well - without investment in the polish necessary to gain the same visibility on instagram. This polish could be in the form of better phones(cameras), better clothing or better backgrounds/scenes.
Tiktok on the other hand promoted your video to other users on the platform regardless of these 'requirements' and as a result those from poor/marginalized communities had the opportunity go viral and gain followers as well - without investment in the polish necessary to gain the same visibility on instagram. This polish could be in the form of better phones(cameras), better clothing or better backgrounds/scenes.
Eh, TikTok got a lot of heat for telling its moderators to downrank fat people, disabled people, and queer people, so this is not by any means one being better than the other. https://www.theverge.com/2019/12/2/20991843/tiktok-bytedance...
They weren't downranked, just ensured they didn't spread too much. I wouldn't be surprised if that is how all those marginalized communities started to love TikTok, since it created all these pockets of positivity instead of spreading the same videos to everywhere and everyone where they start to face more scrutiny and downvotes. Downranked would mean that it would have a hard time everywhere even locally within their communities, but that isn't what happened.
I think they used that concept as a basis for their algorithms later, and just changing the recommendation algorithms changes the feel of the entire platform.
I think they used that concept as a basis for their algorithms later, and just changing the recommendation algorithms changes the feel of the entire platform.
There are a lot more poor straight people than there are rich gay people. So tiktok may have been better for most people.
I think they benefited from being early on the platform. A great advantage if they can monetize, grow and keep up with the competitive pressure. Unfortunately that's not always an option.
People move on and these kids have to feed themselves.
People move on and these kids have to feed themselves.
The story tries so hard to make a point about casteism in algorithmic bias that it ignores the financial realities of the ground.
There's a huge Venture Capital bubble forming in India right now thanks to, among others, Andreesen Horowitz. Those guys have seemingly bottomless pits of money to throw at startups like Clubhouse and in India have gone and created Unicorns out of thin air on paper only.
The big money fight in India post the TikTok ban is what helped IG. Lots of upstarts running expensive advertisements on Television and getting brand endorsements, while the big, established networks in the Facebook family silently boosted content similar to the trash you find on TikTok through FB stories and Facebook stories on placements on top of feed/message inbox, upsells in feed etc
IG is far from winning the space. The competition is simply in disarray from trying to figure out branding and the "cool" factor that TikTok had.
There's a huge Venture Capital bubble forming in India right now thanks to, among others, Andreesen Horowitz. Those guys have seemingly bottomless pits of money to throw at startups like Clubhouse and in India have gone and created Unicorns out of thin air on paper only.
The big money fight in India post the TikTok ban is what helped IG. Lots of upstarts running expensive advertisements on Television and getting brand endorsements, while the big, established networks in the Facebook family silently boosted content similar to the trash you find on TikTok through FB stories and Facebook stories on placements on top of feed/message inbox, upsells in feed etc
IG is far from winning the space. The competition is simply in disarray from trying to figure out branding and the "cool" factor that TikTok had.
The solution, IMO, is not to debate between a Chinese-owned vs an American-owned app but rather promote something homegrown.
Promote counter-anti-desintermediation:
http://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Counter-Anti-Disintermediation
http://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Disintermediation
http://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Counter-Anti-Disintermediation
http://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Disintermediation
that's just going to further degrade the quality. International competition is good because it's the fiercest market there is and TikTok is a genuinely good platform for content creators. the same is going to happen when Huawei is excluded from 5G contracts, watch and see how cost reduction is going to stagnate. The exact same thing happened to the American auto industry after its anti-Japanese protectionist moment in the late 80s/90s.
It's gonna be a feast for the national oligarchy and an absolute disaster for consumers.
And also one thing to add regarding foreign social media. If you think that your citizens are so fundamentally gullible and illiterate that they're going to be brainwashed by a platform like tiktok and that domestic politicians need to spoonfeed them news you've already abandoned any faith in the basis for democracy to begin with.
It's gonna be a feast for the national oligarchy and an absolute disaster for consumers.
And also one thing to add regarding foreign social media. If you think that your citizens are so fundamentally gullible and illiterate that they're going to be brainwashed by a platform like tiktok and that domestic politicians need to spoonfeed them news you've already abandoned any faith in the basis for democracy to begin with.
> If you think that your citizens are so fundamentally gullible and illiterate that they're going to be brainwashed by a platform like tiktok
This ship has sailed everywhere: Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, etc. echo chambers... You only need to look at a country like China where they have the political power to force control and think why they care SO much about it. It matters.
Algorithms are getting increasingly better. Media is becoming more immersive.
This ship has sailed everywhere: Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, etc. echo chambers... You only need to look at a country like China where they have the political power to force control and think why they care SO much about it. It matters.
Algorithms are getting increasingly better. Media is becoming more immersive.
> International competition is good because it's the fiercest market there is and TikTok is a genuinely good platform for content creators. the same is going to happen when Huawei is excluded from 5G contracts, watch and see how cost reduction is going to stagnate.
The problem is that these two tech might be used for propaganda and espionage.
There's also a question of intellectual property violations. Pretty sure taking a closer look at current Huawei products might reveal some interesting reverse engineering. It sure did back in the days where dumped firmware still had Cisco copyrights...
The problem is that these two tech might be used for propaganda and espionage.
There's also a question of intellectual property violations. Pretty sure taking a closer look at current Huawei products might reveal some interesting reverse engineering. It sure did back in the days where dumped firmware still had Cisco copyrights...
It is, if there ever was any doubt, a reminder why we should be talking about protocols and open standards and not companies running their proprietary stuff across the world. I should not have to care if it is US, China or India that houses it. I should not have to care if it it is FB, LinkedIn or TikTok. But that is the problem. The companies have no problem trying to tie people to a specific brand and open standard is a problem for keeping the brand tied.
Even the possibility of an option for a person to pick on their own is a threat to market dominance. And we all know how well inertia works.
As for propaganda and espionage... what isn't used it for it these days?
Even the possibility of an option for a person to pick on their own is a threat to market dominance. And we all know how well inertia works.
As for propaganda and espionage... what isn't used it for it these days?
What an astoundingly poignant comment. . . I'm commenting here for future reference.
It is the protocols and open standards that we should be focusing on, not the platforms.
With that said, web3 endorsed activity pub, I would like to see more websites take advantage of that, I'd love to be able to comment on hackernews via my mastodon account, for example.
It is the protocols and open standards that we should be focusing on, not the platforms.
With that said, web3 endorsed activity pub, I would like to see more websites take advantage of that, I'd love to be able to comment on hackernews via my mastodon account, for example.
> anti-Japanese protectionist moment
Is there more to this than the chicken tax preventing imported trucks?
Is there more to this than the chicken tax preventing imported trucks?
Yes, a 45% tax on motorcycles (to save Harley Davidson[1]), a flat limit on the number of cars that could be imported to the United States, and later a 100% tariff on the Japanese electronics industry[2], among a few other things.
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_motorcycle_tariff
[2]https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1987-03-28-mn-698-st...
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_motorcycle_tariff
[2]https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1987-03-28-mn-698-st...
> International competition is good
But is it really "International competition" if China has more restrictions on foreign companies?
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/13/american-chamber-of-commerce...
But is it really "International competition" if China has more restrictions on foreign companies?
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/13/american-chamber-of-commerce...
The article says several homegrown versions were attempted but none of them have gained much if any traction.
Regarding giant international companies such as TikTok, Facebook and others as "Some State's" is a slightly inaccurate view in the modern globalization world IMHO. It would make a lot more sense to use interest group (basically stating "who and who is in real control of such company") instead of states.
If the "canteen" has better food, and 50% of your company hangs out there 2hrs/day and is under full-time surveillance/propaganda broadcasting by your primary competitor, maybe focusing on the food is missing the point.
so let's just starve them
I think you misunderstood the metaphor in the article.
As Scott Adam says, ["Analogies are fighting words."](https://www.scottadamssays.com/post/102881499176/analogies-a...)
Broken link
this could be the link...
Analogies are Fighting Words - update - Scott Adams Says
https://www.scottadamssays.com/analogies-are-fighting-words-...
though it looks like the content has been updated(removed)
TikTok does a very good job mixing and matching content creators from different income levels.
I hope the authors can share some hard data to back up their claims. The sample size from the article is not enough to justify the title.
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Maybe I'm just getting old and crotchety, but "influencer" seems like such a ridiculous thing to do for work. I guess the laws of Capitalism dictate that it must be a job, or people wouldn't pay for it. But I think it says something about the world we've created, and I don't think it's necessarily good.
It is ridiculous. Remember the influencer who couldn't sell 10 t-shirts?
But, if you are actually successful, it's grind like any job. The ones who manage to monetize have to create content every single day or watch their numbers start to drop.
But, if you are actually successful, it's grind like any job. The ones who manage to monetize have to create content every single day or watch their numbers start to drop.
It's like being an entrepreneur. Since there's no certification, anyone can say this about themselves. But Gates and Edison are also entrepreneurs.
I watched some videos about influencers' daily grind, and I think it's just a different kind of entrepreneurship. They are basically internet-enabled, self-managed celebrities. The social role is not that different that of a "traditional" actor or entertainer, but the effort is grass-roots more often than not.
Job security is shit though. Among other trappings, like a cancel mob.
Job security is shit though. Among other trappings, like a cancel mob.
I look at it as a fashion athlete, extending the term beyond clothing.
Your actual job is silly, but entertaining to a large number of people. Consequently, there's a lot of money available. Consequently, the industry selects for peak performance.
It's easy to look in from the outside and say "Wow! They're getting paid that much because they're that good."
But in reality it's that (total available money in the endeavor) determines (relative competition vs other industries) determines (absolute effort of top performers, to be top performers).
... that said, "erased working class creators" is objectively a ridiculous turn of phrase.
Your actual job is silly, but entertaining to a large number of people. Consequently, there's a lot of money available. Consequently, the industry selects for peak performance.
It's easy to look in from the outside and say "Wow! They're getting paid that much because they're that good."
But in reality it's that (total available money in the endeavor) determines (relative competition vs other industries) determines (absolute effort of top performers, to be top performers).
... that said, "erased working class creators" is objectively a ridiculous turn of phrase.
its a lame word for sure, but the role in society is very old.
book reviewers, fashion critics, the people who decide which products get premium placement in store selves.. those people all used to control the machinery of influence. Now its in the open.
I think we'll get better at this over time but to me its a far more transparent system than we had in the past.
book reviewers, fashion critics, the people who decide which products get premium placement in store selves.. those people all used to control the machinery of influence. Now its in the open.
I think we'll get better at this over time but to me its a far more transparent system than we had in the past.
I mean it’s the same job as a celebrity, but decentralized.
I was trying to distill my thoughts down to a paragraph and then I see that you’ve done it in a single sentence. That’s exactly it.
The internet has permitted individuals to become famous completely independently for the first time ever. And famous people and advertising is an age old relationship. Really all there is to it.
The internet has permitted individuals to become famous completely independently for the first time ever. And famous people and advertising is an age old relationship. Really all there is to it.
Influencer are in other words entertainers, same as singers, actors etc. Its just that the medium of Influencers is social media.
60% of people in UK think their job is bullshit and doesn't need to exist, so my wild guess is these 'influencers' fill more fulfilled than an average office worker.
“Movie reviewer“ wasn’t much of a thing until about 40 years ago. My grandparents would have scoffed at that job too. Times change.
I still scoff at it now. I mean, I don't deny that it's a thing, but it's really not a thing that needs to exist IMO. If other people get value out of it, I don't have a problem with it. If all movie reviewing positions were squeezed out of existence by "market forces" I certainly wouldn't shed a tear.
Completely agree
Influencer is just an entertainer, the platforms change, the purpose is the same, whether it is standup comedy, magician, theater/ movie actors, dancers, pop music artist or talk show hosts. They are all performing for y(our) entertainment.
I imagine some people found slapstick comedians from silent movie era to be poor form of expression compared to drama or comedy plays, live performances to recorded music or very recently Megan thee stallion's performance or whatever.
Every type of performance art has its own value and target audience, one form is not superior to another. [2]
In the context of the article's premise that last point is important. Indian art is filled with great content, however dominantly portrayed both within and externally are the traditionally upper caste forms (Carnatic music/Bhartanatyam etc) in public discourse. Historically it is projected to be superior/ culturally better etc. There is lot of folk and regional traditions which have not had the same patronage, while things are changing over the years more artists and art from such forms are getting better recognition non classical instruments get more limelight, the history of that is deeply linked to Indian caste system and social struggles.
The author's premise[1] is that TikTok was a better medium than Instagram for that expression and that is now lost. He indirectly is saying Modi's government ( an upper caste right wing nationalist government) was not just banning a Chinese app but an important avenue of expression for marginalized communities.
[1] I don't follow either platform to have an opinion on whether this is true.
[2] The discussion on whether any art is valuable or useful is different kind of discussion I am not getting into, the premise here is if some art is valuable , just because we don't like some other form shouldn't make it less valuable
I imagine some people found slapstick comedians from silent movie era to be poor form of expression compared to drama or comedy plays, live performances to recorded music or very recently Megan thee stallion's performance or whatever.
Every type of performance art has its own value and target audience, one form is not superior to another. [2]
In the context of the article's premise that last point is important. Indian art is filled with great content, however dominantly portrayed both within and externally are the traditionally upper caste forms (Carnatic music/Bhartanatyam etc) in public discourse. Historically it is projected to be superior/ culturally better etc. There is lot of folk and regional traditions which have not had the same patronage, while things are changing over the years more artists and art from such forms are getting better recognition non classical instruments get more limelight, the history of that is deeply linked to Indian caste system and social struggles.
The author's premise[1] is that TikTok was a better medium than Instagram for that expression and that is now lost. He indirectly is saying Modi's government ( an upper caste right wing nationalist government) was not just banning a Chinese app but an important avenue of expression for marginalized communities.
[1] I don't follow either platform to have an opinion on whether this is true.
[2] The discussion on whether any art is valuable or useful is different kind of discussion I am not getting into, the premise here is if some art is valuable , just because we don't like some other form shouldn't make it less valuable
Indeed, but it is most definitely a trend.
For most it's just a fun pastime, for some it's a side trade. It's extremely rare to find Influencers who have it as their only source of income.
India should just unban tiktok and bitcoin to / from INR conversions. Also clean up the water supply (setup municipal water treatment plants) so we can have some Golguppe without getting sick. And then all will be well.
As others have pointed out in this thread, why doesn't india create their own tiktok or instagram instead? Just clone them if they can't come up with something new. Neither instagram nor tiktok is rocket science. The value of instagram and tiktok isn't their "technology" or algorithm, it's their users. Why is india ceding their entire market to an american ( or chinese ) company to begin with? Love them or hate them, at least the chinese leadership are competent. What are india's leaders doing? At least when the chinese ban foreign companies, they build up their own homegrown champions. I thought when india banned tiktok, they were going to do the same. Instead, they just handed over the market to facebook.
There is an Indian version Moj [1]. India is too big a market to have vaccumm in this space.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moj_(app)
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moj_(app)
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It would have been a disaster for competition if Trump had managed to ban TikTok.
Instagram and TikTok sound like invasive species on your lawn that compete for territory. I'm reading it like "Poisonous Ivy has largely replaced Crabgrass on your front lawn, erased all flowers and is taking on that tree".
A similar problem about the platforms themselves: the article mentions that a number of local Indian TikTok-lookalike platforms have been created, but none of them was able to get even a fraction of TikTok popularity.
That said, I was pleased to learn about Savitri and Sanatan Mahto, and enjoyed a few of their videos (on Youtube, ironically).