Magpie Driven Development (MDD)(nichesoftware.co.nz)
nichesoftware.co.nz
Magpie Driven Development (MDD)
http://www.nichesoftware.co.nz/2021/07/10/magpie-driven-development.html
128 comments
1. 2x hours booked against a project with a cost code.
2. There is no security review if only one person knows that language. As well as that one person being new to that language.
3. mostly agree but as you state, not relevant to new technology decided upon by someone on a whim.
4. Do you really believe creating sections of the tech stack that only a single person is able to maintain will result in you not having to pay these staff as much? Those staff who you now have a critical dependency on and they know it?
2. There is no security review if only one person knows that language. As well as that one person being new to that language.
3. mostly agree but as you state, not relevant to new technology decided upon by someone on a whim.
4. Do you really believe creating sections of the tech stack that only a single person is able to maintain will result in you not having to pay these staff as much? Those staff who you now have a critical dependency on and they know it?
To your point #4:
Do you really think that developers shouldn't be paid what they're worth? Or that developers should hold down their worth so that you can pay them that much less?
Do you really think that developers shouldn't be paid what they're worth? Or that developers should hold down their worth so that you can pay them that much less?
I do think they should be paid what they're worth... and if they're the only person in the whole company that can fix the code they wrote in a language nobody else knows, then they're indispensable and can charge any salary they want.
which is why they shouldn't be allowed to artificially make themselves indispensable without bringing any additional benefit to the business
which is why they shouldn't be allowed to artificially make themselves indispensable without bringing any additional benefit to the business
But migrating to a more niche technology where the existing one was fine is artificial inflation.
> Now you got a devoted Owner, who is willing to take more responsibility of a project, isn't that wonderful?
Yeah and since the Magpie won't be around long (since it will soon find a new shiny job) someone will have to learn rust just to maintain this project.
Yeah and since the Magpie won't be around long (since it will soon find a new shiny job) someone will have to learn rust just to maintain this project.
Oh God, I was on the receiving end of that. Whoever decided to make the build system dependent on Jinja wasted so much of my time and caused a lot of grey hair!
Wait, build system dependent on Jinja, the templating engine and not Ninja?
Yep. Part of the build process involved spitting out some auto-generated documentation.
We had these short Jinja templates that relied on long Python scripts to do the actual work of performing the substitutions, as the logic was too complex to handle otherwise.
We had these short Jinja templates that relied on long Python scripts to do the actual work of performing the substitutions, as the logic was too complex to handle otherwise.
>Yeah and since the Magpie won't be around long (since it will soon find a new shiny job) someone will have to learn rust just to maintain this project.
Maybe the new maintainer will rewrite it in Zig or Haskell if they don't know Rust.
Maybe the new maintainer will rewrite it in Zig or Haskell if they don't know Rust.
It's all fun and games until someone rewrites it in Brainfuck!
I've seen a business-critical system written in Cache ObjectScript and running on an InterSystems database - big liability and a struggle to get anyone who knows how to work with it.
Why would I move out? I'm only moving out from teams where I'm not motivated.
5. Nobody else on the team knows the tech, so you are committing everyone to that same learning curve in order not not have a huge bus factor for this product.
I'm not at all opposed to learning new shiny tech on the job. But it has to be a team effort, not one developer just deciding to forge their own path.
FWIW, I work with a team who has greatly modernized their skill sets together over the last few years. But they did so by choosing when to start with a new tech, and putting time in their sprints towards the learning efforts, training, tutorials, etc.
I'm not at all opposed to learning new shiny tech on the job. But it has to be a team effort, not one developer just deciding to forge their own path.
FWIW, I work with a team who has greatly modernized their skill sets together over the last few years. But they did so by choosing when to start with a new tech, and putting time in their sprints towards the learning efforts, training, tutorials, etc.
>1. ...put 2x hours into it. isn't that wonderful?
That's what horrors are made of. You absolutely do not wish your people overworked for any extended period of time. And if there is an drawback, hurdle down the road, instability, etc...
That's what horrors are made of. You absolutely do not wish your people overworked for any extended period of time. And if there is an drawback, hurdle down the road, instability, etc...
No, overworking only comes if you're not motivated with what you're doing, forcing your brain to overwork.
But if your brain is simply tired of doing motivating job, then it just reduces a level of motivation, until it gets enough rest. So it's a self-regulated system.
But if your brain is simply tired of doing motivating job, then it just reduces a level of motivation, until it gets enough rest. So it's a self-regulated system.
Yup; 2x hours is not sustainable and there will be burn-out down the line. Bus factor is the phrase to consider here.
> Every time I've seen a project rewritten (regardless of technologies) -- it became better.
I've seen the opposite happen, a lot. In the late 00s, the trend in the industry was to rewrite all the things. Everyone was trying to move away from PHP-based solutions to something "modern."
Old code is battle-tested. That's valuable. Sometimes people reach for rewriting something that really just needs the plumbing updated.
I've seen the opposite happen, a lot. In the late 00s, the trend in the industry was to rewrite all the things. Everyone was trying to move away from PHP-based solutions to something "modern."
Old code is battle-tested. That's valuable. Sometimes people reach for rewriting something that really just needs the plumbing updated.
I'm still hearing the opposite opinion from one older programmer I know, who's supporting a Cobol system right now. They get headaches just opening the Cobol editor. But extremely eager to jump off that project and move to a shiny new Java project. They don't care what will happen to that Cobol system, for all they care it may just burn in flames (taking a big bank with it).
The hours invested count for NOTHING if the developer doesn't take anyone else with him. Nobody should be a solo developer, especially if they're being paid. I've had to work with a few prima donna's like that, the one guy basically went offline for six months (and he was the CTO!) to build his "it's full of stars" CQRS framework in C#, then he (and the manager that enabled him) quit and were re-hired as highly paid consultants.
The manager was ousted or toned down a peg later on by a new, more willful manager.
I'll concede that a rewrite CAN improve a software and pull it into the new decade, but it's a big risk, a lot of effort, and a lot of re-discovery - always consider, if that amount of effort and money was invested in the existing codebase, wouldn't it have the same effect?
Another phrase that comes to mind is hype-driven development.
The manager was ousted or toned down a peg later on by a new, more willful manager.
I'll concede that a rewrite CAN improve a software and pull it into the new decade, but it's a big risk, a lot of effort, and a lot of re-discovery - always consider, if that amount of effort and money was invested in the existing codebase, wouldn't it have the same effect?
Another phrase that comes to mind is hype-driven development.
I knew a prima donna, who went offline for a year. They quit their previous job and were extremely motivated skip salary for 12 months to rewrite a project on a new shiny tech stack.
That how the prima donna started my current company. If not for the Magpie, I'd be working somewhere else now.
That how the prima donna started my current company. If not for the Magpie, I'd be working somewhere else now.
Sure any rewrite has those benefits, but it's also become a huge liability with a truck factor of 1.
Rewrites don't have to be done by sole Magpies.
I've seen a semi-large project been rewritten 4 times at G, by the whole team.
When I came I literally couldn't propose a single thing to improve (there were only things that could be traded off for something else). It was very self-respecting to work on that project (though I didn't do any of those rewrites). And I respected managers there for giving resources for it to happen.
I've seen a semi-large project been rewritten 4 times at G, by the whole team.
When I came I literally couldn't propose a single thing to improve (there were only things that could be traded off for something else). It was very self-respecting to work on that project (though I didn't do any of those rewrites). And I respected managers there for giving resources for it to happen.
Every behavior here sounds great for you and terrible for your team and org. I’m noticing that you didn’t mention skill transfer back to the rest of your team during or after the project.
Thanks, that's a pretty good note.
It let me think of how it works in my current team, where I enjoy being. Basically, we are all Magpies here, and the implicit agreement here is that every project is combination of code and experience (in form of utilized best practices, like writing README-s, leaving scripts for everything etc).
Everyone wanting to dive into another project is expected to be somewhat experienced in software engineering to know the best practices without asking (e.g. read the README, read the scripts), and everyone is expected to just read the code, it's all there.
After those two actions, there are little left for communicating, really. But I understand that probably doesn't work for most teams, as we accept only senior devs to our team.
PS: Also, I just noticed we never re-written a project here so far, mostly because older Magpies can explain why it's ideal for how it is, without resorting to "it works, so don't touch it" and "for historical reasons". It's written well enough so that even if I started rewriting, I would end up with the same thing.
It let me think of how it works in my current team, where I enjoy being. Basically, we are all Magpies here, and the implicit agreement here is that every project is combination of code and experience (in form of utilized best practices, like writing README-s, leaving scripts for everything etc).
Everyone wanting to dive into another project is expected to be somewhat experienced in software engineering to know the best practices without asking (e.g. read the README, read the scripts), and everyone is expected to just read the code, it's all there.
After those two actions, there are little left for communicating, really. But I understand that probably doesn't work for most teams, as we accept only senior devs to our team.
PS: Also, I just noticed we never re-written a project here so far, mostly because older Magpies can explain why it's ideal for how it is, without resorting to "it works, so don't touch it" and "for historical reasons". It's written well enough so that even if I started rewriting, I would end up with the same thing.
> 2x hours into it
Yeah, that includes a lot of time learning. For that reason it is also exciting, because you’re having fun learning what you chose to and additionally fattens the resume.. that releases extra dopamine.
Yeah, that includes a lot of time learning. For that reason it is also exciting, because you’re having fun learning what you chose to and additionally fattens the resume.. that releases extra dopamine.
Maybe cuckoo is a better bird analogy than magpie. They leave their 'eggs' in other birds nests for them to take care of.
Joel Spolsky on rewriting: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-...
> The idea that new code is better than old is patently absurd. Old code has been used. It has been tested. Lots of bugs have been found, and they’ve been fixed. There’s nothing wrong with it. It doesn’t acquire bugs just by sitting around on your hard drive
> The idea that new code is better than old is patently absurd. Old code has been used. It has been tested. Lots of bugs have been found, and they’ve been fixed. There’s nothing wrong with it. It doesn’t acquire bugs just by sitting around on your hard drive
I'd argue that code does rot.
1. Cobol. Seems like most crowd here on HN thinks of it as a problem, contrary to what Joel says.
2. Security -- old code that's not being updated is often insecure. E.g. it requires old environment, that's not being supported anymore, so no security patches for you.
3. Motivation -- the older a project gets, the more you need to pay for its maintenance.
1. Cobol. Seems like most crowd here on HN thinks of it as a problem, contrary to what Joel says.
2. Security -- old code that's not being updated is often insecure. E.g. it requires old environment, that's not being supported anymore, so no security patches for you.
3. Motivation -- the older a project gets, the more you need to pay for its maintenance.
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Hah. The author is missing the point of their own example:
> Investigating, you find out that there’s no compelling business reason for the component to be written in Rust. Not much of a technical reason either. It’s just that the developer involved really wanted to learn the Rust language and related ecosystem of tooling, and they figured this work project was the best place to do that learning.
> Magpie Driven Development is when you have developers who want to use something new for no better reason than it’s shiny and fun.
That developer didn't use Rust because "it's shiny and fun". They did it to learn. Couple possible reasons:
1/ Mental hygiene. They're bored out of their mind with their current tech stack, and picked something different to prevent burnout.
2/ Principal-agent problem. They wanted to learn the new language, perhaps to use it for a side project, and opted to do some of the learning on company time.
3/ Professional development. They want to "sharpen their saw" and/or keep up to date with industry trends, and opted to do it on company time.
4/ CV padding. They consider changing the job, and are trying to gain some marketable experience.
5/ In-house improvements. There's a need for a change of tech stack in the company, of which the author of this article isn't aware. The developer did a project in new technology as a part of moving in this direction.
We can debate professionalism and ethics of any of those reasons as applied to a specific case. But I don't think classifying such situations as developers chasing shiny things is productive or insightful.
> Investigating, you find out that there’s no compelling business reason for the component to be written in Rust. Not much of a technical reason either. It’s just that the developer involved really wanted to learn the Rust language and related ecosystem of tooling, and they figured this work project was the best place to do that learning.
> Magpie Driven Development is when you have developers who want to use something new for no better reason than it’s shiny and fun.
That developer didn't use Rust because "it's shiny and fun". They did it to learn. Couple possible reasons:
1/ Mental hygiene. They're bored out of their mind with their current tech stack, and picked something different to prevent burnout.
2/ Principal-agent problem. They wanted to learn the new language, perhaps to use it for a side project, and opted to do some of the learning on company time.
3/ Professional development. They want to "sharpen their saw" and/or keep up to date with industry trends, and opted to do it on company time.
4/ CV padding. They consider changing the job, and are trying to gain some marketable experience.
5/ In-house improvements. There's a need for a change of tech stack in the company, of which the author of this article isn't aware. The developer did a project in new technology as a part of moving in this direction.
We can debate professionalism and ethics of any of those reasons as applied to a specific case. But I don't think classifying such situations as developers chasing shiny things is productive or insightful.
> In-house improvements. There's a need for a change of tech stack in the company, of which the author of this article isn't aware. The developer did a project in new technology as a part of moving in this direction.
Certainly something that would probably get messaged at all levels of the company, not something you surprise drop on the rest of your coworkers and pull them kicking and screaming towards.
Certainly something that would probably get messaged at all levels of the company, not something you surprise drop on the rest of your coworkers and pull them kicking and screaming towards.
You mean, it's something for management to decide, and the technical staff has no role on learning the costs and benefits of each option?
If a developer could create it alone, without anybody noticing, the company can replace it again if they learn it's not a good technology.
If a developer could create it alone, without anybody noticing, the company can replace it again if they learn it's not a good technology.
it sounds like the developer is in a team of developers.
If someone else on the team wants to shake up literally everything with no consultation with the rest of the team on whether or not it's a good idea, now everyone else is getting dragged along for the ride without much consent, because now it has to be maintained and kept up to date. And it may not even be a good idea; individual developers are not infallible.
If someone else on the team wants to shake up literally everything with no consultation with the rest of the team on whether or not it's a good idea, now everyone else is getting dragged along for the ride without much consent, because now it has to be maintained and kept up to date. And it may not even be a good idea; individual developers are not infallible.
> literally everything
A service, isolated from the rest of the code, fully written in a week by a programmer without experience on the language. If that shakes literally everything, your place has a problem.
And it's the kind of problem a single developer or small skunkworks team can help you move out of, if they are given some freedom to experiment with architecture and settle on some good guidelines.
A service, isolated from the rest of the code, fully written in a week by a programmer without experience on the language. If that shakes literally everything, your place has a problem.
And it's the kind of problem a single developer or small skunkworks team can help you move out of, if they are given some freedom to experiment with architecture and settle on some good guidelines.
someone learning a language on their off time does not mean that everyone else has the off time to do a language. presumably the one engineer won't be the only person touching it, and they'll have vacations and days off where someone else will need to assist, and they'll probably leave the company at some point (especially if it's in service of CV polishing). now everyone has to learn the special new language if the new service is supposed to be a productionized thing.
the least you could do is ask the rest of your team first. what's so contentious about working with your coworkers?
the least you could do is ask the rest of your team first. what's so contentious about working with your coworkers?
Talking to the rest of the team is a good advice. Traveling the hierarchy up and then down expecting for permission is not.
Managers don't have a clue on what you are set up to learn. That's not their job. If you have an environment problem, anybody more than 1 level up from you will at best ignore it.
Managers don't have a clue on what you are set up to learn. That's not their job. If you have an environment problem, anybody more than 1 level up from you will at best ignore it.
The entire point of my first comment was in response to this:
> There's a need for a change of tech stack in the company
If your company is changing entire tech direction, managers should at least be made aware because they will need to plan for time. If this is being run Rambo-style by a few devs going guns blazing for the rest of the company, it's a serious problem, not least because the change in direction might be misguided without a big picture.
> Talking to the rest of the team is a good advice. Traveling the hierarchy up and then down expecting for permission is not.
You seem to be arguing against a strawman.
> There's a need for a change of tech stack in the company
If your company is changing entire tech direction, managers should at least be made aware because they will need to plan for time. If this is being run Rambo-style by a few devs going guns blazing for the rest of the company, it's a serious problem, not least because the change in direction might be misguided without a big picture.
> Talking to the rest of the team is a good advice. Traveling the hierarchy up and then down expecting for permission is not.
You seem to be arguing against a strawman.
Nobody can be sure there's a need if they don't get to know a better stack.
Before management can plan some migration, the technical people must know what else exists and how well it can be used on your environment. After your people run a few replaceable experiments, they can reach management and inform them of the costs and benefits of each choice, but going to management with "our stack sucks, we don't know how to improve it" is guaranteed to lead to a bad outcome, and defending a plan that you don't know how well it will work has a very high chance to turn out bad.
Before management can plan some migration, the technical people must know what else exists and how well it can be used on your environment. After your people run a few replaceable experiments, they can reach management and inform them of the costs and benefits of each choice, but going to management with "our stack sucks, we don't know how to improve it" is guaranteed to lead to a bad outcome, and defending a plan that you don't know how well it will work has a very high chance to turn out bad.
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Magpie Driven Development is imho a symptom of Dead-end Driven Development (DDD).
Dead-end Driven Development happens when the majority of a developer's time is spent working with technologies that hurt their career. The way you end up like this is often because the projects you were initially hired for have reached a maintenance state.
Instead of rewarding developers who have successfully completed the tasks they were initially hired for by assigning them tasks that benefit both their career and the company's goals, developers who meet management's expectations are often assigned to legacy projects that are riddled with obscure bugs, strange architecture, and bad choices. The end goal of these tasks is often to upgrade a system that uses ancient technologies in order to ease some customer's mind.
In this situation burnout eventually creeps in and the engineer faces two choices: either they start doing something that puts their career back in the right track (MDD) despite the consequences, or they find another job that improves their situation.
In the previous economy I would expect most people to pick option 1. In the current economy I'd expect an overwhelming majority to pick option 2.
Dead-end Driven Development happens when the majority of a developer's time is spent working with technologies that hurt their career. The way you end up like this is often because the projects you were initially hired for have reached a maintenance state.
Instead of rewarding developers who have successfully completed the tasks they were initially hired for by assigning them tasks that benefit both their career and the company's goals, developers who meet management's expectations are often assigned to legacy projects that are riddled with obscure bugs, strange architecture, and bad choices. The end goal of these tasks is often to upgrade a system that uses ancient technologies in order to ease some customer's mind.
In this situation burnout eventually creeps in and the engineer faces two choices: either they start doing something that puts their career back in the right track (MDD) despite the consequences, or they find another job that improves their situation.
In the previous economy I would expect most people to pick option 1. In the current economy I'd expect an overwhelming majority to pick option 2.
While I hear what you're saying, if everyone was like that, who would be left to maintain existing systems?
In my limited experience, it takes up to 3 years to go from the start of a project to it being in a maintenance state. A lot of developers (consultants, self-employed, etc) have jumped ship before that, often around the two year mark.
So there's two - three years of work, it's 90% done, it's nearly ready to go into production... then what? Who does the actual work? Who does the maintenance?
I think anyone that picks a technology stack and architecture should stay long enough at a company working on it until they fully understand the consequences of their decisions. Too many people jump from one hype technology to the next, one greenfield start of a project to the other, but never have to deal with their own code and decisions ten years down the line.
And you KNOW a lot of software has a lifetime of at least a decade, sometimes / often more. There's critical systems that are still running with the decisions of a previous generation of developers, people who are now being asked to come back from retirement to maintain their old systems.
You can't call yourself a senior (or serious) developer if you've never had to deal with the consequences of your own actions.
In my limited experience, it takes up to 3 years to go from the start of a project to it being in a maintenance state. A lot of developers (consultants, self-employed, etc) have jumped ship before that, often around the two year mark.
So there's two - three years of work, it's 90% done, it's nearly ready to go into production... then what? Who does the actual work? Who does the maintenance?
I think anyone that picks a technology stack and architecture should stay long enough at a company working on it until they fully understand the consequences of their decisions. Too many people jump from one hype technology to the next, one greenfield start of a project to the other, but never have to deal with their own code and decisions ten years down the line.
And you KNOW a lot of software has a lifetime of at least a decade, sometimes / often more. There's critical systems that are still running with the decisions of a previous generation of developers, people who are now being asked to come back from retirement to maintain their old systems.
You can't call yourself a senior (or serious) developer if you've never had to deal with the consequences of your own actions.
The consequences of their decisions and actions are significant raise in income, experience and exposure. Are you actually expecting people to stick around for "form's" sake ?
Will the business invest in these people and keep them around during the hard times to see the benefit of good corporate governance ?
Devs are not stupid.
Devs are not stupid.
If your senior dev manages builds a whole service in another language and you learn about it after they're about done, I think there are bigger problems than just the choice of the language.
Yeah, this was surprising to me too. Maybe I've just never worked in organisations big enough where you can sneak off to rewrite services using a surprise programming language without any discussion about it.
I'd be inclined to fire them for not doing what they're being paid for. I mean don't get me wrong, every company should have allotted time for experimentation, but not to this degree. And it should not be adopted either, that would be sunk cost fallacy.
If they wants to do Rust so badly, that's fine but they're now a trainer and need to teach the language to everyone involved and share responsibility of the new codebase. And if the other developers don't want to, then the developer needs to find a new job real fast.
If they wants to do Rust so badly, that's fine but they're now a trainer and need to teach the language to everyone involved and share responsibility of the new codebase. And if the other developers don't want to, then the developer needs to find a new job real fast.
I've sort of been dealing with this at my day job, except it doesn't come from other developers, it comes from management.
Every few years, a new Head of Engineering comes in and says something like "let's use $TECHNOLOGY for this project" with the expectation that it will make the company more effective, I think. It's been GraphQL, microservices, clouds ("can we do this with Lambdas on AWS?" when we don't have any other significant infrastructure on AWS), and a bunch of other things.
On one hand, it's good for me to dabble in a lot of this stuff (learning the basics of GraphQL on company time helps my resume, after all), but I end up pushing back most of the time ("I don't think this is a great use-case for GraphQL. From what I understand, $X and $Y would be reasons to use it, but for this project, REST makes more sense because of $Z"). Meanwhile I'm just trying to get my work done and not make it a hassle.
If we had a good reason to use GraphQL (or any of the other things management suggests), I'd be into it, but I don't want to be wrestling with fitting square pegs into round holes for no benefit.
Every few years, a new Head of Engineering comes in and says something like "let's use $TECHNOLOGY for this project" with the expectation that it will make the company more effective, I think. It's been GraphQL, microservices, clouds ("can we do this with Lambdas on AWS?" when we don't have any other significant infrastructure on AWS), and a bunch of other things.
On one hand, it's good for me to dabble in a lot of this stuff (learning the basics of GraphQL on company time helps my resume, after all), but I end up pushing back most of the time ("I don't think this is a great use-case for GraphQL. From what I understand, $X and $Y would be reasons to use it, but for this project, REST makes more sense because of $Z"). Meanwhile I'm just trying to get my work done and not make it a hassle.
If we had a good reason to use GraphQL (or any of the other things management suggests), I'd be into it, but I don't want to be wrestling with fitting square pegs into round holes for no benefit.
This manager might be optimizing for the environment they work in. If the expectations are the Head of Engineering introduces Cool New Technology to the company, then that's what they will push to do.
If you report directly to them, it might be worth a conversation to frame your team's work in a way that sells it as Cool New Technology that is being built.
If you report directly to them, it might be worth a conversation to frame your team's work in a way that sells it as Cool New Technology that is being built.
Oh certainly.
I have a pretty good relationship with that manager, actually, and that's more or less the framework we use to sort of compromise. He gets his buzzwords and I get to get my work done.
I enjoy learning new things, don't get me wrong, but sometimes a CRUD app is just a CRUD app and trying to shoehorn other stuff into it makes it more of a pain in the long run.
I guess I just wanted to illustrate that this isn't only an IC issue; management can engage in MDD too.
I have a pretty good relationship with that manager, actually, and that's more or less the framework we use to sort of compromise. He gets his buzzwords and I get to get my work done.
I enjoy learning new things, don't get me wrong, but sometimes a CRUD app is just a CRUD app and trying to shoehorn other stuff into it makes it more of a pain in the long run.
I guess I just wanted to illustrate that this isn't only an IC issue; management can engage in MDD too.
One thing to consider is that $TECHNOLOGY may not be picked or presented for its technical or performance benefits, but purely for hiring. And marketing, because hiring nowadays is 90% marketing, and in that most of it is down to "you'll get to use this cool technology".
A LOT of job adverts in the past years that I looked at had "blockchain" and "IoT" sprinkled in, not because they did anything with it, but because a lot of developers wanted to do something with those. Because "Java, Postgres, React" don't excite anyone anymore.
A LOT of job adverts in the past years that I looked at had "blockchain" and "IoT" sprinkled in, not because they did anything with it, but because a lot of developers wanted to do something with those. Because "Java, Postgres, React" don't excite anyone anymore.
MDD - Migpie Driven Development
HDD - Hype-Driven Development
BWDD - BuzzWords-Driven Development
HNDD - Hacker News-Driven Development
RDD - Resume-Driven Development
CVDD - CV-Driven DevelopmentWhen I was teaching myself to code, I frantically chased every language that was getting hype on proggit, back when it was worth reading.
Ruby! No, wait, Haskell! No, wait, Erlang! I thought I'd never catch up to the industry.
While I learned a bit from Haskell and Erlang, I eventually realised that no-one hypes the 'boring' languages that people are using to get shit done every day.
Ruby! No, wait, Haskell! No, wait, Erlang! I thought I'd never catch up to the industry.
While I learned a bit from Haskell and Erlang, I eventually realised that no-one hypes the 'boring' languages that people are using to get shit done every day.
I've been going through some developer profiles yesterday (we're looking for a full-stack developer, Go + TS + React), and the amount of people that just blurted out every language and technology they've ever worked on was... a lot.
People need to focus their CVs a lot more. Write the one or two languages you have the most experience in / with, and the one you really want to work with at the top - you don't need to mention you know (x)html(5), css, sass, less and scss - if you mention you have experience as a web developer I will assume you know these things and can learn the rest easily enough. And stop mentioning things you sniffed at in school or on your friday afternoon, if you haven't built products in it, it's not really important.
People need to focus their CVs a lot more. Write the one or two languages you have the most experience in / with, and the one you really want to work with at the top - you don't need to mention you know (x)html(5), css, sass, less and scss - if you mention you have experience as a web developer I will assume you know these things and can learn the rest easily enough. And stop mentioning things you sniffed at in school or on your friday afternoon, if you haven't built products in it, it's not really important.
It's kind of amazing that you can mostly get by with the same 10 languages that were popular 10 years ago.
EDD - Epoch Driven Development
To use precisely the tools and technologies that the project started with until the end of time.
To use precisely the tools and technologies that the project started with until the end of time.
IIABDFIDD - If it ain’t broke don’t fix it driven development?
Proven technology driven development
"Don't have to rewrite the whole fucking thing with a new busload of developers every five years because the previous busload fucked off because they were getting bored" driven development.
Or more eloquently, Use Boring Technology: http://boringtechnology.club/
"Don't have to rewrite the whole fucking thing with a new busload of developers every five years because the previous busload fucked off because they were getting bored" driven development.
Or more eloquently, Use Boring Technology: http://boringtechnology.club/
I'm not a fan of this post as it seems to be pointing the blame at the wrong thing: the problem isn't the shiny new thing, it's the environment that allowed the situation to develop: people working in isolation, key decisions being made by individuals in private, lack of oversight.
There are plenty of arguments in favour of allowing teams to use shiny new tech. Done responsibly, it can help with engagement, job satisfaction, retention, and recruitment.
There are plenty of arguments in favour of allowing teams to use shiny new tech. Done responsibly, it can help with engagement, job satisfaction, retention, and recruitment.
I've been witness of developers not working in isolation, with clear specs and requirements, who knew what was the expectation and still use the tech they preferred.
I would say they were unprofessional and selfish. Not great as cultural fit neither.
Discipline should came first. Imagine you go to a restaurant and order a pizza and instead you receive sushi just because the chef wanted to learn a new cooking style..
I would say they were unprofessional and selfish. Not great as cultural fit neither.
Discipline should came first. Imagine you go to a restaurant and order a pizza and instead you receive sushi just because the chef wanted to learn a new cooking style..
But, as a company you should also focus on your own bottom line - working, stable, predictable, reliable software, a codebase you can still hire people for ten years down the line.
Java and C# are safe bets. It probably won't get you the hip polyglot hype developer type, but I'm not convinced there's any company that thrives on those. Maybe for the POC or MVP, but long term you need a reliable tech stack.
I mean take Google; their backbone is/was C++ and they're moving towards Go, which is even more boring than C++ is.
Java and C# are safe bets. It probably won't get you the hip polyglot hype developer type, but I'm not convinced there's any company that thrives on those. Maybe for the POC or MVP, but long term you need a reliable tech stack.
I mean take Google; their backbone is/was C++ and they're moving towards Go, which is even more boring than C++ is.
I see several comments here defending new-shiny syndrome in the context of improving the developer.
From a business standpoint, that doesn't make a ton of sense. Development is meant to complete the business's objective of solving a problem for humans. It's not meant to make the developers enjoy their work more (though that's a nice bonus when it happens).
Chasing the new shiny puts the team in a perpetual state of re-learning how to do a known process. Maintaining and extending existing code in a known way is more predictable and more cost-effective.
From a business standpoint, that doesn't make a ton of sense. Development is meant to complete the business's objective of solving a problem for humans. It's not meant to make the developers enjoy their work more (though that's a nice bonus when it happens).
Chasing the new shiny puts the team in a perpetual state of re-learning how to do a known process. Maintaining and extending existing code in a known way is more predictable and more cost-effective.
Yet, if the developers who successfully mislead their employers into misguided tech choices have notably better careers, on average, it's exactly what we should do. And we shouldn't feel a bit bad about it unless we're in one of those rare roles where lives are on the line.
> Development is meant to complete the business's objective of solving a problem for humans.
Sure, but every layer of management is making decisions constantly, including about what to direct development to do, that are in their own personal interest rather than the business' interest. If they can do that, the peons can (and should) too.
> Development is meant to complete the business's objective of solving a problem for humans.
Sure, but every layer of management is making decisions constantly, including about what to direct development to do, that are in their own personal interest rather than the business' interest. If they can do that, the peons can (and should) too.
The larger and less well managed (from the top) a business becomes the more likely that becomes. If you haven't experienced the converse I would advise you to seek it out. Working in an environment where the goal is understood and (mostly) everyone is working toward it because that is how they will be measured, is a joy.
I mostly have, which is the only reason I haven't taken my own (implicit) advice and become parasitic, like everyone else who's (personally) successful in large enterprises. That would have been a better move for my finances, for sure, but I don't really have the stomach for it.
OTOH I still think that complaining that people at or near the bottom of the org chart follow incentives to achieve better personal outcomes, because it might hurt the company a little, is naïve at best—at worst, it's propaganda in the class war. "Workers, please limit your own career trajectory to help out the company. Here, let me (deliberately?) misunderstand your motivations and, as is typical, present developers as akin to children, not like the fully-formed adults in management".
Haha. No.
OTOH I still think that complaining that people at or near the bottom of the org chart follow incentives to achieve better personal outcomes, because it might hurt the company a little, is naïve at best—at worst, it's propaganda in the class war. "Workers, please limit your own career trajectory to help out the company. Here, let me (deliberately?) misunderstand your motivations and, as is typical, present developers as akin to children, not like the fully-formed adults in management".
Haha. No.
I feel like you're reading more into my comments than you should. I'm a developer, too.
Your second paragraph... what is that in response to? How is saying that forcing other developers to follow the tech whims of some wannabe 10X is a bad thing "propaganda in the class war?"
Your second paragraph... what is that in response to? How is saying that forcing other developers to follow the tech whims of some wannabe 10X is a bad thing "propaganda in the class war?"
> Your second paragraph... what is that in response to? How is saying that forcing other developers to follow the tech whims of some wannabe 10X is a bad thing "propaganda in the class war?"
The article, mainly, which reads very much like it's from the perspective of a project manager or engineering manager or something like that—as in "This morning you found out to your surprise that one of your senior developers" (emphasis mine), which seemingly-not-a-developer voice and POV it continues throughout. The (inevitable) infantilizing is here:
"Magpie Driven Development is when you have developers who want to use something new for no better reason than it’s shiny and fun."
Sure—except when developers do it because it's how you get ahead in this career. But that's something a rational person, not a toddler, might do, so we can't allow that that might be the reason. This sneering "oh, those childlike developers" tone is typical of management most places, when they talk/write about developers. I've even seen it in places that are pretty damn developer-friendly and tech-driven—it's subtle, but "oh, you know how software developers are" is deeply ingrained in management vernacular. I think it's a defense mechanism, mainly—and a very successful one, from what I've seen—because devs are paid like we're upper-middle-class but managers are, unconsciously or otherwise, very uncomfortable with us being in the same (or higher, maybe) social class as them, so take care that we do not rise in status on that front. I think that's how you end up with that kind of language being the norm, when managers treat of developers. "Well OK they make a lot of money but aren't they so immature and flighty and distractible? And god knows they can't be good at talking to people, or understanding how business works, or anything else that's our job. Now hold on, I've got really strong bad opinions about how this button should look and I expect to have my thoughts treated with deference and close attention. Why? Well, look at the org chart! That's why."
Anticipation and avoidance of this dynamic is why lawyers and doctors tend to resist having non-doctor and non-lawyer managers—and it's part of why those professions still, on average, carry significantly more social value than "software engineer". Pay's only part of the equation.
The article, mainly, which reads very much like it's from the perspective of a project manager or engineering manager or something like that—as in "This morning you found out to your surprise that one of your senior developers" (emphasis mine), which seemingly-not-a-developer voice and POV it continues throughout. The (inevitable) infantilizing is here:
"Magpie Driven Development is when you have developers who want to use something new for no better reason than it’s shiny and fun."
Sure—except when developers do it because it's how you get ahead in this career. But that's something a rational person, not a toddler, might do, so we can't allow that that might be the reason. This sneering "oh, those childlike developers" tone is typical of management most places, when they talk/write about developers. I've even seen it in places that are pretty damn developer-friendly and tech-driven—it's subtle, but "oh, you know how software developers are" is deeply ingrained in management vernacular. I think it's a defense mechanism, mainly—and a very successful one, from what I've seen—because devs are paid like we're upper-middle-class but managers are, unconsciously or otherwise, very uncomfortable with us being in the same (or higher, maybe) social class as them, so take care that we do not rise in status on that front. I think that's how you end up with that kind of language being the norm, when managers treat of developers. "Well OK they make a lot of money but aren't they so immature and flighty and distractible? And god knows they can't be good at talking to people, or understanding how business works, or anything else that's our job. Now hold on, I've got really strong bad opinions about how this button should look and I expect to have my thoughts treated with deference and close attention. Why? Well, look at the org chart! That's why."
Anticipation and avoidance of this dynamic is why lawyers and doctors tend to resist having non-doctor and non-lawyer managers—and it's part of why those professions still, on average, carry significantly more social value than "software engineer". Pay's only part of the equation.
This strikes me as very cynical.
In my own life experience, the majority of my employers have genuinely wanted to work together to improve things for a large group of people.
I have never worked for an employer where it was obvious that everyone was only out for themselves.
In my own life experience, the majority of my employers have genuinely wanted to work together to improve things for a large group of people.
I have never worked for an employer where it was obvious that everyone was only out for themselves.
> I have never worked for an employer where it was obvious that everyone was only out for themselves.
I guess you mustn't have worked for very many employers. Or at least not in the USA. The sentiment is endemic where I am in Houston, TX and previously in CA
I guess you mustn't have worked for very many employers. Or at least not in the USA. The sentiment is endemic where I am in Houston, TX and previously in CA
I have never worked in Texas or California, but my career started in 2001, and I've worked for 13 different companies.
Most of those companies have been in the upper Midwest - either South Dakota or Minnesota. My latest employer is based out of North Carolina.
Interesting that you assume my experience is invalid because it doesn't match yours.
Most of those companies have been in the upper Midwest - either South Dakota or Minnesota. My latest employer is based out of North Carolina.
Interesting that you assume my experience is invalid because it doesn't match yours.
[deleted]
> defending new-shiny syndrome
this is itself a negative phrasing for the phenomenon. For one thing, Rust isn't just shiny and new - it has actual benefits.
Depicting "a perpetual state of re-learning" as negative/positive omits whether or not the process is actually improving or not.
> Maintaining and extending existing code in a known way
depends how debt-inflicted it is. In any case, this article describes a new service, so there wouldn't be the same issue as extending existing services.
this is itself a negative phrasing for the phenomenon. For one thing, Rust isn't just shiny and new - it has actual benefits.
Depicting "a perpetual state of re-learning" as negative/positive omits whether or not the process is actually improving or not.
> Maintaining and extending existing code in a known way
depends how debt-inflicted it is. In any case, this article describes a new service, so there wouldn't be the same issue as extending existing services.
There are cases - like a brand new service - where a new language or framework is a good idea.
In some very rare cases, rewrites can also be a good idea.
But choosing a new technology just because it's new and popular? Almost never a good idea.
In some very rare cases, rewrites can also be a good idea.
But choosing a new technology just because it's new and popular? Almost never a good idea.
> But choosing a new technology just because it's new and popular?
Sure, but the given example states that as assumption. IRL how is that determined. The article states:
> Investigating, you find out that there’s no compelling business reason for the component to be written in Rust. Not much of a technical reason either
but doesn't detail if that was based on (or in agreement with) the opinion of the senior engineer who implemented the service, or the opinion of the author (whose role isn't that clear).
I'd also state that that while "choosing a new technology just because it's new" is bad (although could easily be a proxy for the features that the new thing actually brings - Rust isn't just a new rehash of existing languages, it brings unique features); "choosing a new technology just because it's popular" does have merit.
Sure, but the given example states that as assumption. IRL how is that determined. The article states:
> Investigating, you find out that there’s no compelling business reason for the component to be written in Rust. Not much of a technical reason either
but doesn't detail if that was based on (or in agreement with) the opinion of the senior engineer who implemented the service, or the opinion of the author (whose role isn't that clear).
I'd also state that that while "choosing a new technology just because it's new" is bad (although could easily be a proxy for the features that the new thing actually brings - Rust isn't just a new rehash of existing languages, it brings unique features); "choosing a new technology just because it's popular" does have merit.
Exactly. Remembering Scala? It had a lot of drag around 2010-2015 and everybody was like "this is going to replace Java everywhere". Now it is still alive, you will find some jobs, but career wise Java devs are in higher demand, and I don't think that'll change again.
Don't confuse popularity with hotness. The latter is the first derivative of the former. Rust is hot, but not popular. Scala is somewhat hot (was truly hot a couple years ago) and somewhat popular. Java is lame, but very popular. JavaScript is... a goddamn black hole.
Haskell has benefits as well. So you would be OK with somebody rewriting your Rust code in Haskell for example?
C, C++ etc are similar wrt domain as Rust, maybe even go. Haskell isn't the same kind at all.
Every technology has benefits - and costs. It's always a case of deciding if adopting it is going to be a net gain or loss.
A company has multiple stakeholders.
- Investors
- Workers
- Customers
- Community
A delicate balance has to be achieved by the company to meet everyone's need. If the company cannot achieve this, it will suffer one way or another.
- Investors
- Workers
- Customers
- Community
A delicate balance has to be achieved by the company to meet everyone's need. If the company cannot achieve this, it will suffer one way or another.
This is true.
However, characterizing workers as only needing to work with their latest interest misses out on a world of other (and sometimes conflicting) needs.
Not every developer in an organization is going to want to change languages and ecosystems every Tuesday.
However, characterizing workers as only needing to work with their latest interest misses out on a world of other (and sometimes conflicting) needs.
Not every developer in an organization is going to want to change languages and ecosystems every Tuesday.
> Not every developer in an organization is going to want to change languages and ecosystems every Tuesday.
Not every developer wants to work with whatever Linus, Netflix and other Googles have concocted for their unique reasons yet here we are.
Not every developer wants to work with whatever Linus, Netflix and other Googles have concocted for their unique reasons yet here we are.
That depends on the business. A lot of (but not all) software development is focused on making something possible that was not before. Experimenting with the shiny and new in those cases can lead to serendipitous advances.
It takes a certain culture and way of working for staff to be able to safely experiment with new technologies or new product ideas. I prefer to build teams where learning and experimentation are aligned with business objectives.
However, this approach doesn't work for everyone or for every business. There are many successful risk-averse businesses staffed by folks working ticket queues.
In the end, it's about the culture. An autodidact will struggle in a ticket mill. A ticket puncher will struggle in a skunkworks.
However, this approach doesn't work for everyone or for every business. There are many successful risk-averse businesses staffed by folks working ticket queues.
In the end, it's about the culture. An autodidact will struggle in a ticket mill. A ticket puncher will struggle in a skunkworks.
Another one of those articles...
Please tell us how you incentivise your staff to deprioritise their skill growth in favour of your business? I hope to hear things other than "salary, benefits and bonus" but they have to be monetary.
Please tell us how you incentivise your staff to deprioritise their skill growth in favour of your business? I hope to hear things other than "salary, benefits and bonus" but they have to be monetary.
Capitalists and the c-suite: Nepotism and self-dealing all day every day, constantly directing entire acquisitions to bail out a buddy's or a kid's failing business, or making companies they have control of rent buildings they personally own or whatever
Software developers: Act in their own self interest in a minor way that's not perfectly in line with he company's interests
Business bloggers: Hey now, cut it out developers! What a bunch of low-attention-span babies you are.
Software developers: Act in their own self interest in a minor way that's not perfectly in line with he company's interests
Business bloggers: Hey now, cut it out developers! What a bunch of low-attention-span babies you are.
Because the business pays them to do a specific job which doesn’t include them training for their next job?
Is it really that common that people expect their current employer to subsidize their “skill growth” when they know they are just going to hop to another company in the near term?
Not judging —- just asking as an outsider looking in.
—edit—
Huh, just downvotes so I assume it is expected to be able to train yourself on company time…
Is it really that common that people expect their current employer to subsidize their “skill growth” when they know they are just going to hop to another company in the near term?
Not judging —- just asking as an outsider looking in.
—edit—
Huh, just downvotes so I assume it is expected to be able to train yourself on company time…
> Is it really that common that people expect their current employer to subsidize their “skill growth”
Yes, that's common in professions.
> when they know they are just going to hop to another company in the near term?
That's a consequence of employers not willing to keep paying market rate over time. The only way to get back to that rate is to go somewhere else.
Also, most employers are expecting to hire already competent proffesionals, and invest nothing into training people in-house. So for each person that jumps ship, when they hire a replacement, they enjoy a subsidy of said replacement having secretly trained themselves on previous employers' dime.
Yes, that's common in professions.
> when they know they are just going to hop to another company in the near term?
That's a consequence of employers not willing to keep paying market rate over time. The only way to get back to that rate is to go somewhere else.
Also, most employers are expecting to hire already competent proffesionals, and invest nothing into training people in-house. So for each person that jumps ship, when they hire a replacement, they enjoy a subsidy of said replacement having secretly trained themselves on previous employers' dime.
Why do they have to be monetary but not based on salary or bonuses?
Because you want people to care about business same way as the owners do, yet when the firing starts they will simply be let go.
Another option is to openly state during hiring that new technologies and approaches are not welcome.
Another option is to openly state during hiring that new technologies and approaches are not welcome.
In my case, it wasn't MDD. I was tasked by my manager to take a look into this whole SIP thing. So I started reading up on it and writing code in Lua (using LPEG) as an exploratory project [1]. Unbeknownst to me, my prototype was put into production by said manager.
Sigh.
I'm still the only person who really knows Lua at the company.
[1] I used Lua to write the testing programs for the product.
Sigh.
I'm still the only person who really knows Lua at the company.
[1] I used Lua to write the testing programs for the product.
Communication issues aside, good luck finding developers who aquired all the necessary skills to work in software development without this mindset.
Of course it would be great for a company to be able to hire people who only learn new things on weekends and then 100% commit to and derive all their motivation from delivering the product, but I think that's quite rare...
Of course it would be great for a company to be able to hire people who only learn new things on weekends and then 100% commit to and derive all their motivation from delivering the product, but I think that's quite rare...
I’ve been writing shipping software for my entire adult life.
In my experience, shipping requires compromise. For example, I have found it to be a very bad idea to schedule a ship project, based on shiny. It’s always a good idea to step back from the precipice, a bit.
The last two years at my last job, we were assigned to work with a startup, staffed by awesomely brilliant folks, to develop a particular kind of software, in one of the new, customized, LLVM-spawned, languages. I won’t get specific.
It did not end well. The devil is in the details. It was a great R&D project, but a lousy ship project.
The app I’m currently developing is being written in Swift (shiny), but using UIKit (b o r i n g), and traditional MVC (b o r i n g), instead of SwiftUI (shiny), and MVVM (shiny). SwiftUI was a thing, when I started the project, but it was still pretty raw, and I had barely started to work with it. The servers are written (for the most part), in PHP. They work great. If anyone has any doubts about the viability of PHP as a server, they should check out the “fishtank graph.” That was the graph that was released, recently, that showed PHP is several orders of magnitude more prevalent in Web server code, than any other language.
I call it the “fishtank” graph, because PHP is this line along the top, and every other language is represented by lines that look like gravel, on the bottom of the tank.
I may have been able to do this enormous app in SwiftUI, but there was no guarantee. There was no doubt, whatsoever, that it could be done in UIKit. If I write in UIKit, I write MVC. UIKit was designed for MVC. I’ve found that it’s always a good idea to use a tool the way it designed to be used. SwiftUI is good for PoP, KVO, etc., and different event-handling models.
It’s coming along great. The quality is amazing, as is the UX, and the performance.
I plan to ease into SwiftUI, by writing SwiftUI versions of my various UIKit widgets. That will be a much better way to learn up on it.
In my experience, shipping requires compromise. For example, I have found it to be a very bad idea to schedule a ship project, based on shiny. It’s always a good idea to step back from the precipice, a bit.
The last two years at my last job, we were assigned to work with a startup, staffed by awesomely brilliant folks, to develop a particular kind of software, in one of the new, customized, LLVM-spawned, languages. I won’t get specific.
It did not end well. The devil is in the details. It was a great R&D project, but a lousy ship project.
The app I’m currently developing is being written in Swift (shiny), but using UIKit (b o r i n g), and traditional MVC (b o r i n g), instead of SwiftUI (shiny), and MVVM (shiny). SwiftUI was a thing, when I started the project, but it was still pretty raw, and I had barely started to work with it. The servers are written (for the most part), in PHP. They work great. If anyone has any doubts about the viability of PHP as a server, they should check out the “fishtank graph.” That was the graph that was released, recently, that showed PHP is several orders of magnitude more prevalent in Web server code, than any other language.
I call it the “fishtank” graph, because PHP is this line along the top, and every other language is represented by lines that look like gravel, on the bottom of the tank.
I may have been able to do this enormous app in SwiftUI, but there was no guarantee. There was no doubt, whatsoever, that it could be done in UIKit. If I write in UIKit, I write MVC. UIKit was designed for MVC. I’ve found that it’s always a good idea to use a tool the way it designed to be used. SwiftUI is good for PoP, KVO, etc., and different event-handling models.
It’s coming along great. The quality is amazing, as is the UX, and the performance.
I plan to ease into SwiftUI, by writing SwiftUI versions of my various UIKit widgets. That will be a much better way to learn up on it.
> MVVM (shiny)
Microsoft tried to make this a thing 15-ish years ago with WPF/Silverlight ... is it experiencing a renaissance? Unfortunately I don't recall too much about its merits (or possible lack thereof) since the last time I read about it I wasn't sufficiently experienced with software architecture to understand what it brought to the table.
Microsoft tried to make this a thing 15-ish years ago with WPF/Silverlight ... is it experiencing a renaissance? Unfortunately I don't recall too much about its merits (or possible lack thereof) since the last time I read about it I wasn't sufficiently experienced with software architecture to understand what it brought to the table.
It’s fairly prevalent in Apple programming.
I’m ambivalent about it, but I have yet to do a full-size project with it (like I said, I feel that it is best to use classic MVC for UIKit development). I have used Presentation Manager (MS-defined) for serverside (PHP) code, but that’s different from MVVM for Swift-based stuff for Apple device programming.
We’ll see. SwiftUI is fairly radically different from UIKit. I basically like what I see, but I haven’t gone down that rabbithole, yet.
I’m very practical. I don’t get particularly distracted by shiny, and have no problems doing stuff like mixing cutting-edge techniques with 35-year-old patterns.
I’m ambivalent about it, but I have yet to do a full-size project with it (like I said, I feel that it is best to use classic MVC for UIKit development). I have used Presentation Manager (MS-defined) for serverside (PHP) code, but that’s different from MVVM for Swift-based stuff for Apple device programming.
We’ll see. SwiftUI is fairly radically different from UIKit. I basically like what I see, but I haven’t gone down that rabbithole, yet.
I’m very practical. I don’t get particularly distracted by shiny, and have no problems doing stuff like mixing cutting-edge techniques with 35-year-old patterns.
I also like the term Resume Driven Development (RDD) to describe this. Choose whichever technologies improve the developers resume the most.
The technology most suited to improve one's resume will be the one most in demand on the job market, and therefore also the most difficult skill to hire for...
Consider it lucky Magpie is using Rust. Imagine if instead rewrite it in JS with they new shinny frameworks...
Not to advocate any of it, but if trying out that new shiny language creates real motivation for the developer (and of course, suitable from a business/maintainabity etc perspective too), let them.
Of course you should have communicated more with the developer though to see what they've been working on.
Of course you should have communicated more with the developer though to see what they've been working on.
Guilty of this. And I encourage my team to do it too. You need to align incentives.
The doing it in secret part is a far bigger problem.
The doing it in secret part is a far bigger problem.
There is nothing wrong with learning new technologies and trying new stuff. If your organization prohibits this I don't think it is a good place to work. What you call "MDD" sound to me more like a planning or communication issue between the project manager and the developer.
Learning is one thing, putting a production service into place in a language no one else is familar with and without permission, is not okay.
"Let's use GraphQL"
Literally happened to me. Our backend guys decided to switch to GraphQL from perfectly functioning REST. Result: release postponed by 4 months and 30% of the client side had to be rewritten. The whole client logic relies on Redux state as the single source of truth and I always fetch objects fully anyway, so it even makes less sense to switch.
But again, backend guys being backend.
But again, backend guys being backend.
I've begun to recognize "unnecessary GraphQL" as a code smell, and one usually indicative of wider architectural problems in a project.
I have yet to be wrong in immediately steeling myself for the worst the second I see the word.
I have yet to be wrong in immediately steeling myself for the worst the second I see the word.
What would you consider to be "necessary GraphQL"
Nothing. But the utility it provides is a unification layer for heterogeneous data sources to enable ad-hoc queries on the consumer side.
Are you Facebook?
Pretty much this - I can see why Facebook use it but I wouldn't have gained much from GraphQL in any of my jobs.
> backend guys being backend
I've found backend devs to be more conservative than front.
I've found backend devs to be more conservative than front.
Backend devs—who've been at it for any amount of time—know they're gonna have a really bad night followed by a really bad week and, quite possibly, a really bad month, if the wrong sort of stuff gets written to the production DB. Or someone accidentally deploys redirect or routing code that's effectively an open proxy and kills your IP block's reputation. Or et c., et c.
Graphql implementation generic and possibly interesting on the backend and shuffles query complexity to the frontend.
Well, yes, but you can always trivially "shuffle query complexity to <x>" without mention of whole-project complexity, which might dictate where that complexity should be.
for example, any/all logic can be in the backend. A fn call fn(a), fn(b) or fn(c) in the FE can simply be fn_a(), fn_b() and fn_c() instead, but that would needlessly complicate the backend. If there is an object with N fields, and I want a subset, there are N*2 possible subsets, and whatever number of subsets I need (between 1 and N*2), I can either create that many BE endpoints, or a single endpoint that accepts a list of fields it should return - which is what I believe graph-ql is?
for example, any/all logic can be in the backend. A fn call fn(a), fn(b) or fn(c) in the FE can simply be fn_a(), fn_b() and fn_c() instead, but that would needlessly complicate the backend. If there is an object with N fields, and I want a subset, there are N*2 possible subsets, and whatever number of subsets I need (between 1 and N*2), I can either create that many BE endpoints, or a single endpoint that accepts a list of fields it should return - which is what I believe graph-ql is?
Yup. Not only that the whole client layer has changed completely, it literally added nothing valuable to the project. GraphQL code generation is nice (but has many unnecessary bells and whistles) but Swagger code generation was just perfect too.
Great example, I contract in FE space and GraphQL is very often brought up - 100% in project context where it didn't really make sense and most of the time I got the feeling they will bring it up to have it on the CV or out of FOMO.
I personally see good use in GraphQL for 2 usecases:
- Aggregator over existing (!) microservices backend arch that has REST (plus maybe gRPC) in place, to allow FE people to move fast with their UI. In no way should new services be written in GraphQL, BE should still use REST (+gRPC)
- Prototyping/Fast clickdummy implementation; ideally a Snapshopt of an existing DB is used, and graphQL adapter for 1:1 entity mapping to allow 1-2 FE devs to quickly toss together a new FE (this should under no circumstances be used for anything even close to production)
Cases where it has been pitched to me where I see no increased value:
- BE team is too slow/lazy/defensive for new features (just have a GraphQL adapter and 1:1 map db entities to GraphQL entities -> please don't do that)
- having "typed" queries (you should just use typescript to strictly type your REST DTOs instead and optionally use a VM mapping)
I personally see good use in GraphQL for 2 usecases:
- Aggregator over existing (!) microservices backend arch that has REST (plus maybe gRPC) in place, to allow FE people to move fast with their UI. In no way should new services be written in GraphQL, BE should still use REST (+gRPC)
- Prototyping/Fast clickdummy implementation; ideally a Snapshopt of an existing DB is used, and graphQL adapter for 1:1 entity mapping to allow 1-2 FE devs to quickly toss together a new FE (this should under no circumstances be used for anything even close to production)
Cases where it has been pitched to me where I see no increased value:
- BE team is too slow/lazy/defensive for new features (just have a GraphQL adapter and 1:1 map db entities to GraphQL entities -> please don't do that)
- having "typed" queries (you should just use typescript to strictly type your REST DTOs instead and optionally use a VM mapping)
tbh, the only problem I have with the approach in the article is that they’re not being strategic about it. I’ve informally had a, “one cool idea per project,” rule in the past. So if the project itself is cool, stay conservative with implementation choices, etc. But if the project is routine, you get to experiment a little.
I am guilty. Also, I very much enjoy it.
I think a slight improvement over this model is to have a forward-looking CTO/Lead Developer/etc. who incorporates new technologies into the overall plan with sane fail states. This allows the overall technology stack to remain fresh, the developers to stay motivated and current, manages the overall amount of legacy code, while also managing incurred risk effectively. It can also lead to company investment in those new technologies, i.e. training time/budget or conference tickets (depending on what's relevant).
Tl;dr: put your magpies on the top!
Tl;dr: put your magpies on the top!
Can't blame someone who tries something else instead of .net.
Going back to my current legacy .net project that i hate. Except there's no way I can stealth port it to rust or anything else so i'll just try to get the changes over with.
Going back to my current legacy .net project that i hate. Except there's no way I can stealth port it to rust or anything else so i'll just try to get the changes over with.
Legacy .NET is crap. New .NET is pretty nice on the other hand.
I believe mine was started in VB pre .net :)
While old VB was fun for whacking together things it's not really stuff one would want to maintain in the long haul.
Right now I'm sometimes spending time maintaining something for a DCOM based semi-monstrosity and that does suck even if I've managed to clean out some old warts, luckily I'm also doing some more modern .NET stuff and that isn't too bad at all actually.
Right now I'm sometimes spending time maintaining something for a DCOM based semi-monstrosity and that does suck even if I've managed to clean out some old warts, luckily I'm also doing some more modern .NET stuff and that isn't too bad at all actually.
Oh. Oh no.
I hope you've at least had exposure to recent, proper .NET code. Don't judge the platform based on that project.
I hope you've at least had exposure to recent, proper .NET code. Don't judge the platform based on that project.
I stopped reading when the author wrote with a straight face that .NET would help with their migration to Linux.
That said, new technology proof of concepts should always be done on non-critical systems first, and certainly not sprung as surprises.
That said, new technology proof of concepts should always be done on non-critical systems first, and certainly not sprung as surprises.
Can you ellaborate? .NET runs on Linux very well just a couple of years MS officially supported it, and if you have a decade worth of .NET code in your company, porting it to .NET 5 might be orders of magnitude easier than to rewrite into something else.
I really like the metaphor of a Magpie, especially since they start swooping once people get to close to their babies!
Couple of points OP missed:
1. To prove that the new Rust service working fine, Magpie will stay extremely motivated, put 2x hours into it. You have to literally tear them off a keyboard. Now you got a devoted Owner, who is willing to take more responsibility of a project, isn't that wonderful?
2. Every rewrite serves as a good security review. Old unnecessary permissions will get abandoned, and only required accesses will be migrated. If Magpie is experienced and responsible, they will make it more secure than it was.
3. Every time I've seen a project rewritten (regardless of technologies) -- it became better. But only big companies can afford it. Magpie did it for you for free.
4. Motivation (aka pay less). If you see your team is bored, and updating their resume -- allow them to rewrite something on a tech stack they choose (and you can postpone promos till next year).