Ask HN: What language to learn after Python?
22 comments
C/C++ because C is turning 50 years old soon which means there's 50 years worth of libraries to use in your projects, and C++ because it's more flexible & 'meta' C, imo.
Languages that really flex their type/category theory muscles (Haskell et al come to mind) also, because I think the best of the next 50 years may have such languages as the origin point for the propagation of insanely good ideas to all the other ones.
Languages that really flex their type/category theory muscles (Haskell et al come to mind) also, because I think the best of the next 50 years may have such languages as the origin point for the propagation of insanely good ideas to all the other ones.
Cing through this, I can tell you that you can C C++: https://godbolt.org/z/sWETvsoKd (a demo for polymorphism in C90)
Not only can you do OOP in C, you can also do FP, implement your own iterators and the like. (Function) pointers are your friend: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28378627#28406874
And remember: FP = pure functions (no side effects) + immutable values
Currying in C is essentially taking the address of a function pointer and not calling it. You can do lazy evaluation as well. The Cky is the limit!
Yes, C++ is comfy, but you cannot really do FP with its STL. As STL containers require mutability by default.
std::transform(v.begin(), v.end(), w.begin(), [](auto const& x){ /* ... */});
Transforming the contents of v requires a buffer(!) w. (The rescue: https://github.com/arximboldi/immer)
In Python, this would be something akin to:
map(lambda x: x, t); # t being a tuple type here
This will return another tuple.
Yeah, so these are just some pointers. I just wanted to stress that C can enable your creativity once you get the essence of it.
Not only can you do OOP in C, you can also do FP, implement your own iterators and the like. (Function) pointers are your friend: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28378627#28406874
And remember: FP = pure functions (no side effects) + immutable values
Currying in C is essentially taking the address of a function pointer and not calling it. You can do lazy evaluation as well. The Cky is the limit!
Yes, C++ is comfy, but you cannot really do FP with its STL. As STL containers require mutability by default.
std::transform(v.begin(), v.end(), w.begin(), [](auto const& x){ /* ... */});
Transforming the contents of v requires a buffer(!) w. (The rescue: https://github.com/arximboldi/immer)
In Python, this would be something akin to:
map(lambda x: x, t); # t being a tuple type here
This will return another tuple.
Yeah, so these are just some pointers. I just wanted to stress that C can enable your creativity once you get the essence of it.
Two suggestions with reasons.
Job:
JavaScript/TypeScript - Because like it or not, 'every' project ends up on the web sooner or later and every job interview will ask if you know web programming
or
Personal Growth:
Haskell - Because it will fundamentally change how you look at and approach programming. Even if you never write a line of Haskell afterwards and go back to Python the things you've learnt will make you a better Python programmer
Job:
JavaScript/TypeScript - Because like it or not, 'every' project ends up on the web sooner or later and every job interview will ask if you know web programming
or
Personal Growth:
Haskell - Because it will fundamentally change how you look at and approach programming. Even if you never write a line of Haskell afterwards and go back to Python the things you've learnt will make you a better Python programmer
For expanding your job opportunities, learn Java (statically-typed language with very widespread use in the industry) and/or Javascript (front-end web programming, used on practically every website.)
Ideally you'd learn both, but I understand your time is limited. Choose based on whether you'd prefer to work on back-end stuff or front-end stuff.
Ideally you'd learn both, but I understand your time is limited. Choose based on whether you'd prefer to work on back-end stuff or front-end stuff.
This might be regional specific but I'm seeing Java roles are mostly dealing with legacy 10-15yr projects, so a lot of maintenance type work, kicking tyres, keeping things running, bolting on new features to codebases no one want's to touch.
Kotlin seems to be popular on the JVM for more greenfield work. However a lot of backend stuff seems to be Typescript/Javascript on NodeJS with Go close behind.
For job purposes I'd learn Typescript followed by Go. I'm not a fan of Typescript for the backend so this is based purely on getting a job.
Rust would be my heart not head language to learn. Realistically it has another 5-10 years to go before it's picked up for mass usage in industry, if it's picked up as Go is. It's a bit harder to learn and that's why Javascript/Python/Go are popular, a lot of people can use them in a few hours without to much learning.
Kotlin seems to be popular on the JVM for more greenfield work. However a lot of backend stuff seems to be Typescript/Javascript on NodeJS with Go close behind.
For job purposes I'd learn Typescript followed by Go. I'm not a fan of Typescript for the backend so this is based purely on getting a job.
Rust would be my heart not head language to learn. Realistically it has another 5-10 years to go before it's picked up for mass usage in industry, if it's picked up as Go is. It's a bit harder to learn and that's why Javascript/Python/Go are popular, a lot of people can use them in a few hours without to much learning.
This might be regional specific but I'm seeing Java roles are mostly dealing with legacy 10-15yr projects, so a lot of maintenance type work, kicking tyres, keeping things running, bolting on new features to codebases no one want's to touch.
Could be. But what are the numbers? There are 3,027 results for 'java developer' on Indeed, and 196 for 'kotlin developer'. (Obviously you have to take those particular numbers with a grain of salt - e.g. job listings that match Java frequently say something like, "Knows a language like Java or C++" whereas a job listings that match Kotlin are probably? looking specifically for a Kotlin dev.)
Could be. But what are the numbers? There are 3,027 results for 'java developer' on Indeed, and 196 for 'kotlin developer'. (Obviously you have to take those particular numbers with a grain of salt - e.g. job listings that match Java frequently say something like, "Knows a language like Java or C++" whereas a job listings that match Kotlin are probably? looking specifically for a Kotlin dev.)
Backend works for me. Frontend is mostly for trivial side projects that I visit on and off.
If you don't mind, what's your opinion on Java Vs scala? I keep hearing anecdotally that scala is better but without any concrete reasons.
If you don't mind, what's your opinion on Java Vs scala? I keep hearing anecdotally that scala is better but without any concrete reasons.
If you want to learn Scala, learn it for fun. Its use in the industry is minuscule compared to Java.
Another benefit of Java: it's similar to C#, so most any company hiring for a C# dev would be open to hiring a Java dev. Learning Java simply opens more job opportunities.
Another benefit of Java: it's similar to C#, so most any company hiring for a C# dev would be open to hiring a Java dev. Learning Java simply opens more job opportunities.
[deleted]
If you want to expand your cognitive toolkit then Prolog is a good bet.
XML Schema.
I am suggesting this as a thought exercise to expand your understanding of organization and interpretation of natural human language as a data construct. Other benefits include unintended mastery of the DOM, taxonomies, lexical scope as a vehicle of metadata, URIs as unique universal identifiers, and so forth.
I am suggesting this as a thought exercise to expand your understanding of organization and interpretation of natural human language as a data construct. Other benefits include unintended mastery of the DOM, taxonomies, lexical scope as a vehicle of metadata, URIs as unique universal identifiers, and so forth.
late to the party but: Nim.
Compiled, very good type system, meta programming. Very different from Python while still feeling a lot like Python (and looking like it). Very enjoyable and very rich for learning. Portable and sort of universal (from embedded to front end). A real gem.
I would use this for personal growth since community is small (there are some but very few job opportunity). In particular if you want to try open source, it is probably much easier to have an impact on the ecosystem with Nim than with Python (where a lot has already been built).
Compiled, very good type system, meta programming. Very different from Python while still feeling a lot like Python (and looking like it). Very enjoyable and very rich for learning. Portable and sort of universal (from embedded to front end). A real gem.
I would use this for personal growth since community is small (there are some but very few job opportunity). In particular if you want to try open source, it is probably much easier to have an impact on the ecosystem with Nim than with Python (where a lot has already been built).
> I do not know which and how to choose
I wonder if it would be wise to work on those questions rather than add to the considerable pile.
(If you want an idea of an oblique meta-strategy contact me)
I wonder if it would be wise to work on those questions rather than add to the considerable pile.
(If you want an idea of an oblique meta-strategy contact me)
I would love to know your strategy. But I dont think the problem is paralysis by analysis. Each language listed by me gives something unique other than Python. My challenge is more about evaluating a language without understanding deeply what it offers. It would ideally be nice to learn something interesting which also has job opportunities. But jm willing to learn more than one for personal growth and for job opportunities.
For personal growth, each of the following will 'expand your mind'. In no particular order:
* Common Lisp, Clojure, or Scheme / Racket (macros[0], functional programming, and unique and minimal syntax)
* Assembly (about as low-level as you can get, so you will really understand what's going on when programs run)
* Prolog (logical programming)
* Forth (stack-based language)
* APL or J (array-based languages and wild syntax)
* C (very similar to other languages but you'd learn pointers and manual memory management, and more open-source projects use C than any of the other languages I've listed, so you'd be able to contribute to projects you find interesting)
And probably Haskell and maybe Erlang but I don't know enough about them.
Other languages have wisely added macros, but I don't know enough about them to suggest any.
The other languages in your list won't expand your mind much after being familiar with those.
[0] The sort of macros I'm referring to aren't simple text-substitution macros as in C and C++. I'm referring to "syntactic macros", which kind of let you add new features to the language. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macro_(computer_science)#Synta... is very much not the best intro, but I don't have better links handy.)
* Common Lisp, Clojure, or Scheme / Racket (macros[0], functional programming, and unique and minimal syntax)
* Assembly (about as low-level as you can get, so you will really understand what's going on when programs run)
* Prolog (logical programming)
* Forth (stack-based language)
* APL or J (array-based languages and wild syntax)
* C (very similar to other languages but you'd learn pointers and manual memory management, and more open-source projects use C than any of the other languages I've listed, so you'd be able to contribute to projects you find interesting)
And probably Haskell and maybe Erlang but I don't know enough about them.
Other languages have wisely added macros, but I don't know enough about them to suggest any.
The other languages in your list won't expand your mind much after being familiar with those.
[0] The sort of macros I'm referring to aren't simple text-substitution macros as in C and C++. I'm referring to "syntactic macros", which kind of let you add new features to the language. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macro_(computer_science)#Synta... is very much not the best intro, but I don't have better links handy.)
C, C++ and Erlang.
PS: For mind expansion, see the book Concepts, Techniques and Models of Computer Programming by Peter Van Roy and Seif Haridi.
PS: For mind expansion, see the book Concepts, Techniques and Models of Computer Programming by Peter Van Roy and Seif Haridi.
I can't really give you advice without learning more about what you want to know.
To me, there are far more jobs out there than I need. You only need one job at a time. So I like to keep my mainstream programming skills reasonably sharp, but focus most of my time on expanding my mind.
That "job market" skill doesn't really matter that much. Python or JavaScript is fine. I have done a lot more JavaScript than Python over the years, and prefer JS but its not that huge of a distinction.
Early in my career, one of the things that really mystified me was how easy it was fro complexity to get out of control. I've worked on several code bases where nobody really understood how they worked. The abstractions were all very fuzzy, and almost any explanation for how something worked needed to be verified by myself before I could trust it. This seems to be the default state, and even the projects that start with the best of intentions, people with enough skill, refactoring discipline, etc, still seem to end up that way. So, I've been on a quest for figuring out how why this is, and how to mitigate it.
What totally surprised me was that Haskell was the answer I was looking for. Pure functional programming keeps you honest. People don't generally realize how problematic side effects are; of course, they are necessary, but having side effects strewn throughout your code base makes it very hard to reason about. The problem is that these are so complex that its very hard to accurately categorize them, say placing them behind a function name.
Many languages have kinda sorta maybe started to understand this and try to restrict memory mutability, which is certainly important, but for me working in web apps I have seen far more "stateful" problems resultant from rampant database access. Save a record here, query a table there, etc etc. Side effects add a ton of complexity.
So, if you want to become a better programmer, and perhaps figure out why stuff gets to be so hard for no good reason, learn Haskell. Send me an email if you wanna chat more/hear some advice on getting started.
I don't know if Haskell will long term be the thing that brings controlled side effects to the larger ecosystem; there are numerous other attempts in the works. Monads for side effects are a goofy hack, however they work fine and are totally acceptable for use etc.
But I can say that I am 100% convinced that once this truth is more widely appreciated, it will cause a massive change. We're going to see an impact on order of the impact automatic memory management had on the programming world.
The notion of using pure functions as much as possible and keeping your side efects restricted to as small a surface area as possible is certainly applicable in Python. The thing is, as a programmer you don't get to trust that things are the way they seem without chekcing yourself, so you gotta read the code. But still, learning Haskell will make you a far better programmer in your day job.
Oh, and another note: lots of haskell programmers go crazy with abstract stuff. Just don't do that. KISS applies to the haskell world as much as it does everywhere else. If you do, your programs will become SO MUCH EASIER TO WRITE AND MAINTAIN.
But this all depends upon the goal of being a better programmer. Haskell will also expand your brain in a delightful way, but so will Racket, Prolog, etc. So YMMV.
To me, there are far more jobs out there than I need. You only need one job at a time. So I like to keep my mainstream programming skills reasonably sharp, but focus most of my time on expanding my mind.
That "job market" skill doesn't really matter that much. Python or JavaScript is fine. I have done a lot more JavaScript than Python over the years, and prefer JS but its not that huge of a distinction.
Early in my career, one of the things that really mystified me was how easy it was fro complexity to get out of control. I've worked on several code bases where nobody really understood how they worked. The abstractions were all very fuzzy, and almost any explanation for how something worked needed to be verified by myself before I could trust it. This seems to be the default state, and even the projects that start with the best of intentions, people with enough skill, refactoring discipline, etc, still seem to end up that way. So, I've been on a quest for figuring out how why this is, and how to mitigate it.
What totally surprised me was that Haskell was the answer I was looking for. Pure functional programming keeps you honest. People don't generally realize how problematic side effects are; of course, they are necessary, but having side effects strewn throughout your code base makes it very hard to reason about. The problem is that these are so complex that its very hard to accurately categorize them, say placing them behind a function name.
Many languages have kinda sorta maybe started to understand this and try to restrict memory mutability, which is certainly important, but for me working in web apps I have seen far more "stateful" problems resultant from rampant database access. Save a record here, query a table there, etc etc. Side effects add a ton of complexity.
So, if you want to become a better programmer, and perhaps figure out why stuff gets to be so hard for no good reason, learn Haskell. Send me an email if you wanna chat more/hear some advice on getting started.
I don't know if Haskell will long term be the thing that brings controlled side effects to the larger ecosystem; there are numerous other attempts in the works. Monads for side effects are a goofy hack, however they work fine and are totally acceptable for use etc.
But I can say that I am 100% convinced that once this truth is more widely appreciated, it will cause a massive change. We're going to see an impact on order of the impact automatic memory management had on the programming world.
The notion of using pure functions as much as possible and keeping your side efects restricted to as small a surface area as possible is certainly applicable in Python. The thing is, as a programmer you don't get to trust that things are the way they seem without chekcing yourself, so you gotta read the code. But still, learning Haskell will make you a far better programmer in your day job.
Oh, and another note: lots of haskell programmers go crazy with abstract stuff. Just don't do that. KISS applies to the haskell world as much as it does everywhere else. If you do, your programs will become SO MUCH EASIER TO WRITE AND MAINTAIN.
But this all depends upon the goal of being a better programmer. Haskell will also expand your brain in a delightful way, but so will Racket, Prolog, etc. So YMMV.
What kind of projects do You recommend to start learning Haskell? Do you have any go to resources for learning it?
Learn You a Haskell for Great Good! is aimed at people who have experience in imperative programming languages but haven't programmed in a functional language before.
http://learnyouahaskell.com/
http://learnyouahaskell.com/
You may find The Haskell Road to Logic, Maths and Programming interesting.
Haskell is unreasonably effective at writing CLI applications. I haven't worked on it in a while, and the code is not the best, but this is what I built when I was starting out:
github.com/joelmccracken/reddup
https://haskellbook.com/ is how I got good at Haskell. If you can't get a copy, there are other ways to get good at it though! Just not necessarily any all-in-one resources.
I'm always willing to help folks learn Haskell tho, so if you have any q's get my email from my bio.
github.com/joelmccracken/reddup
https://haskellbook.com/ is how I got good at Haskell. If you can't get a copy, there are other ways to get good at it though! Just not necessarily any all-in-one resources.
I'm always willing to help folks learn Haskell tho, so if you have any q's get my email from my bio.
Typescript, Ruby
I am able to program in any language given some time and google. So solving a problem doesn't seem to be where I am lacking. I have been able to scratch a little more than the surface but not deep enough to actually use the language for whatever its strengths are advertised for. These include C, Java, Rust, Go, Bash, Javascript, Powershell where I have written trivial but useful programs.
There are too many to choose from and I do not know which and how to choose. Languages which have been recommended to me include C, C++, Java, Go, Scala, Javascript/Typescript, Assembly, Scheme, OCaml, Common Lisp, Clojure, Kotlin, Erlang, Elixir, Haskell
Can anyone suggest further languages to enhance myself in terms of what I have missed by having Python as my only language? I am looking to categorize them into two - ones I can learn for personal growth and ones I can learn for expanding job opportunities. I'm open to multiple languages in each category.
People who have learnt multiple languages which include python please share your experience.