Steam has been banned in China(thegamer.com)
thegamer.com
Steam has been banned in China
https://www.thegamer.com/steam-banned-china-christmas-day/
533 comments
I really love how we all have an impression of China as a country without access to global internet, but then there are things like "Most Chinese Steam users have historically been using the global service instead".
Really makes you want to visit and see how this actually works for yourself. The more I read about China, the more unbelievably contradictive it gets.
Really makes you want to visit and see how this actually works for yourself. The more I read about China, the more unbelievably contradictive it gets.
I'm personally opposed to the idea of visiting certain countries, such as China and North Korea, to 'see for yourself', especially when you don't know the language, when you're not willing to risk your life to understand and uncover the parts the government doesn't want you to see, like VICE did in Xinjiang: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7AYyUqrMuQ
That being said, if you go then please try to walk into a random hotel/apartment you see on the street to try to book a room.. then you'll discover that 9/10 hotels/apartments won't allow foreigners to live there. I lived in China for more than a year before I realized this was the case, and I have on multiple occasions even been kicked out of friends/partners apartment because someone told the landlord there was a foreigner in the building (or maybe they saw through the surveillance camera).
That being said, if you go then please try to walk into a random hotel/apartment you see on the street to try to book a room.. then you'll discover that 9/10 hotels/apartments won't allow foreigners to live there. I lived in China for more than a year before I realized this was the case, and I have on multiple occasions even been kicked out of friends/partners apartment because someone told the landlord there was a foreigner in the building (or maybe they saw through the surveillance camera).
I’m ethnically Chinese. While I speak a little I am still mistaken for a foreigner since I often hire a translator and I traveled extensively through China throughout the last 2 decades to many places both remote and urban on a US passport. Never had a problem with hotels (though mostly booked online) nor staying at relatives/friends houses, nor anything blatantly authoritarian besides my internet bring blocked (which I got around using a SOCKS proxy).
I was also part of an Obama administration sponsored group of Americans sent to China for an entrepreneurship exchange trip and I think more Americans should be sent to China to learn about it rather than reading biased second hand accounts over the internet. While it was a guided and escorted tour, we were also allowed to freely wander the cities in some of the evenings. It would go a long way to ease tensions and reduce enmity between the two nations if there was more genuine cultural interaction instead of spooky observations from afar. People tend to exaggerate and boogeyman what they don’t know and understand.
I was also part of an Obama administration sponsored group of Americans sent to China for an entrepreneurship exchange trip and I think more Americans should be sent to China to learn about it rather than reading biased second hand accounts over the internet. While it was a guided and escorted tour, we were also allowed to freely wander the cities in some of the evenings. It would go a long way to ease tensions and reduce enmity between the two nations if there was more genuine cultural interaction instead of spooky observations from afar. People tend to exaggerate and boogeyman what they don’t know and understand.
The reason it took more than a year for me to realize this phenomenon is because when I first visited the country then I relied on travel agencies, international hotel booking apps, and had accommodation provided for me. It's certainly possible to live in China for even a decade without realizing the reality of the situation if you exclusively stay at 4-5 star hotels, or only book hotels through international hotel booking apps, or rely on agencies to help you find apartment and other type of accommodation since they have a list of the ones that accept foreigners.
https://www.ceicdata.com/en/china/starrated-hotel-operation/... claim there are 10 million hotels in China - what percentage do you reckon are included in the international hotel booking apps? My guess would be less than 0.5%. That's why you need to walk into the random hotels/apartments you see on the street if you want to verify the reality of the situation. For you specifically then it might be difficult since you're ethnically Chinese, so while you might encounter some discrimination and exclusion from society (if you don't have a national id card) then it certainly won't be comparable to what white and especially black people experience while living in China. In my experience then the 9/10 number is not an exaggeration at all but if you asked other westerners who visited China then they will likely give different numbers based on their price range, location, booking method, etc.
I also think you greatly exaggerate how much you actually learn about another country by going there for a short trip. Even the most brutal regimes can look like a wonderful paradise, e.g. see the national day celebration in 1959 which took place at a time where tens of millions of people were dying of starvation (https://youtu.be/M-XQSffVpfY?t=43).
https://www.ceicdata.com/en/china/starrated-hotel-operation/... claim there are 10 million hotels in China - what percentage do you reckon are included in the international hotel booking apps? My guess would be less than 0.5%. That's why you need to walk into the random hotels/apartments you see on the street if you want to verify the reality of the situation. For you specifically then it might be difficult since you're ethnically Chinese, so while you might encounter some discrimination and exclusion from society (if you don't have a national id card) then it certainly won't be comparable to what white and especially black people experience while living in China. In my experience then the 9/10 number is not an exaggeration at all but if you asked other westerners who visited China then they will likely give different numbers based on their price range, location, booking method, etc.
I also think you greatly exaggerate how much you actually learn about another country by going there for a short trip. Even the most brutal regimes can look like a wonderful paradise, e.g. see the national day celebration in 1959 which took place at a time where tens of millions of people were dying of starvation (https://youtu.be/M-XQSffVpfY?t=43).
Yup, only certain hotels are allowed to book foreigners. I tried to buy my way in once, along with some local friends' help, and we couldn't do it. I got the impression the government would shut them down if they accepted foreigners. The staff seemed friendly and understanding, and there was this "nothing I can do" attitude about it. After walking to multiple hotels in the area we gave up and slept on a friend's floor. I forget exactly where we were. It wasn't a well know city, yet it wasn't small either. I was quite surprised at the time that even with my passport in hand I wasn't allowed to stay anywhere there.
I traveled frequently, for short and longer trips (months at a time), as well as having lived there (albeit not on a foreign passport when I lived there).
Most 4-5 star hotels are still dirt cheap in China. We’ve stayed in budget hotels (by Chinese standards) in non first-tier cities with no problem.
I’d say if you got turned away it’d be some combination of obviously looking like a foreigner (in which you could get them reported for some infractions) and not being licensed to accept foreigners.
Most 4-5 star hotels are still dirt cheap in China. We’ve stayed in budget hotels (by Chinese standards) in non first-tier cities with no problem.
I’d say if you got turned away it’d be some combination of obviously looking like a foreigner (in which you could get them reported for some infractions) and not being licensed to accept foreigners.
The reality is every step you took was observed and I would assume even where you slept both video and audio were recorded.
You can assume anything. Doesn't mean it's true. The reality is that your perception of China is highly fantasized and part of a crafted narrative. It's dangerous if you continue to contribute to this propaganda without care as to whether you've verified anything you've heard yourself. Maybe it's true, maybe not, but I doubt you'd know. I mean, it's certainly possible our rooms were bugged, but to what end? To fulfill the dreams of conspiracy theorists? I guess it's equally likely the US embedded a CIA agent in our group as well so maybe bugging us would be justified.
Business people go missing, women who speak our are silenced, climate change is of no concern, concentration camps are real.
We’ve seen enough already.
We’ve seen enough already.
Your naivete is unsurprising; it was one of the traits you were selected for in trip planning.
Countries spy on foreign visitors. Friendship trips are carefully planned to show none of the underside of a society. China is one of the most oppressive regimes out there - see the detention of Jack Ma, who was five years ago one of their most celebrated businessmen.
Countries spy on foreign visitors. Friendship trips are carefully planned to show none of the underside of a society. China is one of the most oppressive regimes out there - see the detention of Jack Ma, who was five years ago one of their most celebrated businessmen.
Well, must be Obama’s conspiracy because the US side selected the participants. You speak as if you have indisputable proof of some conspiracy.
The naïveté is not understanding that China’s problems is not so much they are evil masterminds rather than just incompetent bureaucrats. The takeaway from the trip is that 90% of what they expose to the outside world is a facade to save face for their own politicians, not that they are competent super spies.
They may have spied on us, but we’d have not much value being spied upon. If spying is somehow the benchmark of authoritarian regimes then the US and Israel probably lead the pack of these types of regimes.
Secondly, just because you disagree with government policies doesn’t make it some evil regime. You cited Jack Ma but he is still out and about.
The naïveté is not understanding that China’s problems is not so much they are evil masterminds rather than just incompetent bureaucrats. The takeaway from the trip is that 90% of what they expose to the outside world is a facade to save face for their own politicians, not that they are competent super spies.
They may have spied on us, but we’d have not much value being spied upon. If spying is somehow the benchmark of authoritarian regimes then the US and Israel probably lead the pack of these types of regimes.
Secondly, just because you disagree with government policies doesn’t make it some evil regime. You cited Jack Ma but he is still out and about.
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The fact that there's an actual genocide taking place in the country is all we need to know - all the other so-called "assumptions" pale in comparison to that reality
I backpacked through China and stayed in youth hostels. Highly doubt they were bugged. They didn’t even have heating (we used electric blankets)
I think part of that is that a lot of infrastructure is missing, but also culturally less wasteful than American lifestyles. For example I stayed in my Japanese friend's house in Tokyo and he doesn't heat the entire place even though it's a pretty small apartment. My room just had a heated blanket as well.
But I agree, for any random foreigner the government is not competent enough to surveil him/her and much less motivated to do so. The fact is any given foreigner is not actually that important...
But I agree, for any random foreigner the government is not competent enough to surveil him/her and much less motivated to do so. The fact is any given foreigner is not actually that important...
The problem is that China doesn’t allow for central heating south of the Yangtze. So my coldest winter ever was spent in a small town in south Hunan, where it was above freezing but the lack of indoor heating really beats you down, kotatsus not withstanding. A friend of mine has parents who migrate to “northern” China in the winter so they don’t freeze to death.
Japan had a similar problem being previously not very rich (they invented kotatsu for that reason).
Japan had a similar problem being previously not very rich (they invented kotatsu for that reason).
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Let me add some nuances to this claim.
Even if “every step is observed” is exaggerated, the surveillance system in China is pretty extensive: it can target journalists and international students among other “suspicious people”, and can compile individual files on such persons using 3,000 facial recognition cameras (in a single province) that connect to various national and regional databases. [1]
And this surveillance system is part of the bigger tracking program, which the Chinese authority has used to harass and intimidate journalists [2] (see this comment for more [3]).
And according to the memoir “A Promised Land”, even Obama and his staff were worried about Chinese surveillance during their stay at the Beijing hotel (see this review [4] or this summary [5]):
[1]: https://www.reuters.com/technology/exclusive-chinese-provinc... "EXCLUSIVE Chinese province targets journalists, foreign students with planned new surveillance system"
[2]: https://www.newsweek.com/china-harassing-intimidating-journa... "China Harassing, Intimidating Journalists With Surveillance Built to Curb COVID-19"
[3]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29685703
[4]: https://georgetoparis.medium.com/obamas-a-promised-land-on-c... "Obama’s “A Promised Land”, on China"
[5]: https://www.bannedbook.org/en/bnews/baitai/20201121/1434392.... "Obama recalls his first visit to China and was under surveillance"
[6]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29684626
Even if “every step is observed” is exaggerated, the surveillance system in China is pretty extensive: it can target journalists and international students among other “suspicious people”, and can compile individual files on such persons using 3,000 facial recognition cameras (in a single province) that connect to various national and regional databases. [1]
And this surveillance system is part of the bigger tracking program, which the Chinese authority has used to harass and intimidate journalists [2] (see this comment for more [3]).
And according to the memoir “A Promised Land”, even Obama and his staff were worried about Chinese surveillance during their stay at the Beijing hotel (see this review [4] or this summary [5]):
“To make calls involving national security matters from the hotel, I had to go to a suite down the hall fitted with a sensitive compartmented information facility (SCIF) — a big blue tent plopped down in the middle of the room that hummed with an eerie, psychedelic buzz designed to block any nearby listening devices. Some members of our team dressed and even showered in the dark to avoid the hidden cameras we could assume had been strategically placed in every room. (Marvin, on the other hand, said he made a point of walking around his room naked and with the lights on — whether out of pride or in protest wasn’t entirely clear.)” [4]
[1]: https://www.reuters.com/technology/exclusive-chinese-provinc... "EXCLUSIVE Chinese province targets journalists, foreign students with planned new surveillance system"
[2]: https://www.newsweek.com/china-harassing-intimidating-journa... "China Harassing, Intimidating Journalists With Surveillance Built to Curb COVID-19"
[3]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29685703
[4]: https://georgetoparis.medium.com/obamas-a-promised-land-on-c... "Obama’s “A Promised Land”, on China"
[5]: https://www.bannedbook.org/en/bnews/baitai/20201121/1434392.... "Obama recalls his first visit to China and was under surveillance"
[6]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29684626
It is true. The reason is that only hotels with passport verification system can accept foreign guests (all hotels have a system connected to police department to verify national id), most hotels only have a small national id verification system (because it was cheaper I guess), only some 4 star and 5 star hotels have these. I had once tried to use my passport to stay in a hotel, they didn't allow me then I learnt about this.
Probably only the bigger hotels have an agent of ministry of state security on premises.
You should assume that you get a bugged room too.
Russians did it in the 80s, even easier now.
You should assume that you get a bugged room too.
Russians did it in the 80s, even easier now.
All hotels have to report their guests to the local PSB, but some smaller hotels don’t (rules aren’t that enforced in China), but will avoid foreign guests because they easily bring attention from authorities. You can get away without reporting to the PSB in some way out places (like a hostel in the middle of nowhere I stayed in that lacked electricity beyond a simply hydro wheel), but those are rare, and not in big cities.
The rooms aren’t bugged. Most foreigners aren’t that special. Maybe they will big some special hotel that gets lots of diplomats? But most of us won’t stay in those.
The rooms aren’t bugged. Most foreigners aren’t that special. Maybe they will big some special hotel that gets lots of diplomats? But most of us won’t stay in those.
China only start to recognize passport as identification a few years ago, previously a Chinese citizen can only use national id. It was just a lot extra work for the hotel if they don't have this system. No, you can get bugged, but by the state, maybe by some creeps.
I am surprised at what you say regarding the hosting of foreigners. My girlfriend was there for a couple of months and she didn't notice any such thing, and she actually rented a place with a couple of friends, also foreigners. Is this what you describe because of racism or because of government?
Both. I have been refused access to a place because the landlord was openly racist and didn't want to rent to me after she found out I was a foreigner. There is pretty much no recourse for foreigners who are victims of racism in China, it's an extremely racist country. When you're a foreigner you just kinda have to accept that there are people who will cross the street or shield their kids when they see you, loudly complain when you sit next to them on the bus, refuse to do business with you, etc etc. Of course in rich areas of tier one cities where the government has an image to uphold, this will happen much less frequently.
That said, definitely in the case of hotels there are loads of hotels it seems there is a legal aspect as well. If you lived in China you might be familiar with the long and boring process of registration with the police every time you move house. Sometimes you even have to register at more than one place because you moved into a different urban area. According to the law, all foreigners must do this everywhere they go in China, including tourists who are on holiday. It wouldn't be very efficient to make tourists spend a couple hours at the police station every time they checked into a hotel, so some hotels have some arrangement with the local police to do this on their guests' behalf behind the scenes. Most tourists nowadays don't even know that they have been registered with the police everywhere they travel. But smaller hotels don't provide that service. I have successfully blagged my way into staying at one smaller hotel by assuring them i would visit the local police myself to register, but a lot of them don't want the hassle or (perhaps) attention from the local authorities, so they just ban foreigners.
When I left China it was during the pandemic, and pretty much no hotels at all would allow foreigners to stay. This was xenophobia, pure and simple. There were a few times I had to first visit the police station and ask the police where I could stay, because hotel after hotel after hotel refused me, despite my green health code, valid visa and so on.
That said, definitely in the case of hotels there are loads of hotels it seems there is a legal aspect as well. If you lived in China you might be familiar with the long and boring process of registration with the police every time you move house. Sometimes you even have to register at more than one place because you moved into a different urban area. According to the law, all foreigners must do this everywhere they go in China, including tourists who are on holiday. It wouldn't be very efficient to make tourists spend a couple hours at the police station every time they checked into a hotel, so some hotels have some arrangement with the local police to do this on their guests' behalf behind the scenes. Most tourists nowadays don't even know that they have been registered with the police everywhere they travel. But smaller hotels don't provide that service. I have successfully blagged my way into staying at one smaller hotel by assuring them i would visit the local police myself to register, but a lot of them don't want the hassle or (perhaps) attention from the local authorities, so they just ban foreigners.
When I left China it was during the pandemic, and pretty much no hotels at all would allow foreigners to stay. This was xenophobia, pure and simple. There were a few times I had to first visit the police station and ask the police where I could stay, because hotel after hotel after hotel refused me, despite my green health code, valid visa and so on.
This is weird. Definitely not my experience at all. I visited Shanghai, Beijing, and Chengdu in China in 2012 and I felt extremely welcome wherever I went. I might also add that in Chengdu, a city which sees considerably less foreigners than the other two, I felt like I was being treated like somewhat of a celebrity, with people smiling at me everywhere, and random passer-bys on the street trying to impress me with their renditions of "Good Morning" or "How are you?". Once I had a visibly excited team of students randomly stop me on the street to do an interview with me for their class project, and on another occasion a large group of young people all wanted to take a picture with me one by one.
Needless to say, I loved it.
Needless to say, I loved it.
2012 is a very long time ago by Chinese standards. Xi only became the general secretary in November of that year and the president in 2013. Most of his authoritarian and nationalist policies have only really kicked into a higher gear from 2018. The xenophobia got even worse after the coronavirus hit, and I can't imagine it has improved much since I left in 2020.
Also, I don't know what makes you think that Chengdu is off the beaten path - it's a massive tourist destination, in particular because of its panda reserve, presumed proximity to Tibet and the global renown of Sichuan cuisine (home of mapo tofu, hotpot etc).
Thirdly, this coddling of foreigners is exactly the kind of racist behavior that I find to be degrading. It might feel superficially nice to be treated like you are special or unique, but really it means you are not being treated with respect. They are treating you like a child, or a curiosity. If you visit some of the indigenous communities of China then you will often see the Han majority treat the ethnic minorities in the same way, as if they are just props for photos or some kind of weird creatures to be gawked at. It's gross, imo.
Also, I don't know what makes you think that Chengdu is off the beaten path - it's a massive tourist destination, in particular because of its panda reserve, presumed proximity to Tibet and the global renown of Sichuan cuisine (home of mapo tofu, hotpot etc).
Thirdly, this coddling of foreigners is exactly the kind of racist behavior that I find to be degrading. It might feel superficially nice to be treated like you are special or unique, but really it means you are not being treated with respect. They are treating you like a child, or a curiosity. If you visit some of the indigenous communities of China then you will often see the Han majority treat the ethnic minorities in the same way, as if they are just props for photos or some kind of weird creatures to be gawked at. It's gross, imo.
Thank you. I had the same experience as GP in 2010 except I absolutely hated it. Can you imagine if people in the US treated Chinese tourists like that?
I never saw it that way. Your comment definitely opened my eyes.
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Some things to keep in mind:
Familiarity breeds contempt.
Western expats in East Asia tend to be quite polarized about their country of residence, and expats in poorer countries even more so. Over time, the tint of novelty wears off and the warts begin to stand out. Poorer countries have more warts.
For folks like myself who are extra sensitive, the negatives get an outsized representation, while the positives and neutrals get filtered out. It took me years of to develop the habits to compensate. I'm far from where I'd like to be, but I'm learning to accept that as well.
This is especially true in places of higher density. If you encounter 1 bad apple in a place of 100 people, vs 10 bad apples of 1000 people, the ratio is the same, but subjectively the latter feels ten times worse. It’s the price you pay for living the city life.
And when you have an under-stimulated career, the idle mind becomes the devil's playground.
We let collective narratives plays a greater role in colouring our opinions (as opposite to direct experience) than we'd like to admit. In this day and age, I don't think it's especially controversial to say that we get more dopamine hits from internet discussions than having a stroll down the street. Ultimately, unless we consciously intervene, the chemicals get to decide what we let ruminate in the back of our minds.
The idiosyncrasies you used to brush off or find amusing are now small but cumulative signs of impending doom. What we get right in direction we get wrong in magnitude. The sprinkles of verifiable truth can often as easily fuel our biases as they moderate them.
Familiarity breeds contempt.
Western expats in East Asia tend to be quite polarized about their country of residence, and expats in poorer countries even more so. Over time, the tint of novelty wears off and the warts begin to stand out. Poorer countries have more warts.
For folks like myself who are extra sensitive, the negatives get an outsized representation, while the positives and neutrals get filtered out. It took me years of to develop the habits to compensate. I'm far from where I'd like to be, but I'm learning to accept that as well.
This is especially true in places of higher density. If you encounter 1 bad apple in a place of 100 people, vs 10 bad apples of 1000 people, the ratio is the same, but subjectively the latter feels ten times worse. It’s the price you pay for living the city life.
And when you have an under-stimulated career, the idle mind becomes the devil's playground.
We let collective narratives plays a greater role in colouring our opinions (as opposite to direct experience) than we'd like to admit. In this day and age, I don't think it's especially controversial to say that we get more dopamine hits from internet discussions than having a stroll down the street. Ultimately, unless we consciously intervene, the chemicals get to decide what we let ruminate in the back of our minds.
The idiosyncrasies you used to brush off or find amusing are now small but cumulative signs of impending doom. What we get right in direction we get wrong in magnitude. The sprinkles of verifiable truth can often as easily fuel our biases as they moderate them.
All the cities you mention are tier one Potemkin cities.
Try go to the country side to see the real China.
For the racism part, I wouldn't say that signs with "no foreigners" in shops are common, but I have seen them a couple of times during my 5 year stay in China.
Try go to the country side to see the real China.
For the racism part, I wouldn't say that signs with "no foreigners" in shops are common, but I have seen them a couple of times during my 5 year stay in China.
As someone who’s lived in China since 2012 up until the present day, things have changed markedly in the last few years, and especially since ~April of last year once it became clear that China was handling the pandemic better than the rest of the world.
Most people are still ok, but some fraction of the population has a mixture of fear and hatred of foreigners. They think foreigners are dangerous because we bring the virus. Far fewer places accept foreigners than before.
I love my life and my friends here, but walking down the street in a village and having a guy wearing an official-looking coat scream at you to “fuck off” has a way of souring one’s mood.
Most people are still ok, but some fraction of the population has a mixture of fear and hatred of foreigners. They think foreigners are dangerous because we bring the virus. Far fewer places accept foreigners than before.
I love my life and my friends here, but walking down the street in a village and having a guy wearing an official-looking coat scream at you to “fuck off” has a way of souring one’s mood.
China has changed an awful lot even since 2012.
Can you imagine saying “ni hao” and asking for selfies with random Asian people on the street in whatever western country? It would be racist and demeaning as hell. That’s what they subjected you to, and you felt “special.”
I mostly give them a pass because they weren’t being malicious, just curious. I’ve spoken with plenty of people who literally had never talked to a foreigner before. Perhaps half the country has still never even seen a foreigner.
It’s definitely taken too far sometimes though.
It’s definitely taken too far sometimes though.
I experienced this a lot in India, some part of eastern Europe and Balkan. Most of them asked nicely. Told me that they come from a very small town there is not much chances to meet foreigner. And I usually ok with it. Don't find it is racist. It is just curiosity of other culture.
It really depends on your race as a foreigner. Black and Indian foreigners will be treated worse than white foreigners. Asian foreigners…it really depends how Chinese they look.
It seems to get worse every year also. My first visit in 1999, foreigners were quite welcomed. Then it simply got more mundane from there. My visit twas chengdu in 2006 was fairly like you stated though.
It seems to get worse every year also. My first visit in 1999, foreigners were quite welcomed. Then it simply got more mundane from there. My visit twas chengdu in 2006 was fairly like you stated though.
I've had smaller hotels tell me they can't host foreigners due to some law that you need to have a star rating which they didn't. The only time I had problems booking a hotel was in Shanghai and Beijing though, in other cities there was never an issue.
Also I was always greeted with utter friendliness, so I don't get the everybody's xenophobic aspect. I do speak some (very basic) Mandarin though so maybe that helps with how you're treated.
Also I was always greeted with utter friendliness, so I don't get the everybody's xenophobic aspect. I do speak some (very basic) Mandarin though so maybe that helps with how you're treated.
Not speaking Chinese is probably a benefit, because what you don't know can't hurt you. I speak fairly fluent Mandarin, and have overheard a lot of very open racist and xenophobic sentiments expressed in conversations around me when the people presumably assumed i couldn't understand what they were saying.
It is true that people in China tend to be fairly polite, although when it blows up it tends to go straight to 11. (I saw a lot of this happening between police and residents during the coronavirus lockdowns.) But just because people are polite, don't assume that means they're not bigots. In some parts of the country, particularly amongst more affluent people, there is a sort of attitude that foreigners should be treated with kid gloves, which is thoroughly degrading.
It is true that people in China tend to be fairly polite, although when it blows up it tends to go straight to 11. (I saw a lot of this happening between police and residents during the coronavirus lockdowns.) But just because people are polite, don't assume that means they're not bigots. In some parts of the country, particularly amongst more affluent people, there is a sort of attitude that foreigners should be treated with kid gloves, which is thoroughly degrading.
As a Chinese who grew up in a very small city in the west, I think you are completely right. The more developed areas is, the more open they are. And so on to the teenagers compare elders. At least in the surface.
However, as the government turns to be more close(I don’t know how to describe it more correct but i believe you know) when Xi gets the power, even the teenagers become more racist and xenophobic while I am an undergraduate seen.
IMO, probably that’s because most of them could only receive the Internet in China(which we always consider it as a LAN): everything in the world has a “Chinese special edition”.
After all, IMO, it’s able to come to China in some big cities with a VPN or something across the firewall since nobody can stay away to internet these days. Thus you will get a experience not too bad, and China is like most any other countries. But just stay in the urban area. What’s more, you know it’s not a good time to visit during pandemic, and i think racist and xenophobic been much more during these time. I don’t know what the china being tomorrow, but i’m pessimistic.
Sorry for my bad english.
Facing discrimination when you are foreigner is pretty common in most countries. I think if you are from the white diaspora you wouldn't have noticed in the western countries but every time a friend (I am from India) goes to countries in NA & EU, there is almost always some form of discrimination preventing access to service or being overcharged without legal intervention.
I've been to many hotels across the United States and Europe over a number of years in cities of all sizes and can honestly say have never even felt the remote possibility of being denied a room. Also Indian/Pakistani.
Edit: to be clear, I'm not trying to deny your own experience or making any accusations here. I'm just presenting the other side and clarifying that I don't feel it's a universal experience.
Edit: to be clear, I'm not trying to deny your own experience or making any accusations here. I'm just presenting the other side and clarifying that I don't feel it's a universal experience.
America has its own class of problems that get exaggerated or overblown, such as how dangerous it is.
"White diaspora" is blowing my mind a bit. I think I would have been slapped by my social studies teachers if I ever used that phrase to describe colonialism. (I'm white, US)
Visiting or living in foreign countries for business or tourism is not "colonialism".
Nice of you to assume that all white people had a chance to colonise (rather than be colonised and conquered by neighbouring nations on a regular basis). I'm not carrying the sins of the English-speaking (or otherwise formerly colonising) nations, so could the whites == colonialism assumption stay wherever other such weird assumptions belong.
European diaspora is an accepted term[1]. Yes there's a redirect, but the word "diaspora" is used in the very first paragraph. It's ok, Europeans are people too. There's nothing offensive about the term. Plenty of "colonials" were sentenced to transportation, they didn't choose it.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_diaspora
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_diaspora
You can take solace in the fact that "whites" will never again command such societies in the future. The exaggerated "colonialism" narrative comes off as pining for a long-lost era of dominance, but in a socially acceptable way.
The era of Northern Europeans ("whites") dominating the globe is over forever, so no need to beat yourself up about it. Just letting you know that this extreme narrative is quite bizarre to non-Americans.
The era of Northern Europeans ("whites") dominating the globe is over forever, so no need to beat yourself up about it. Just letting you know that this extreme narrative is quite bizarre to non-Americans.
Yes, foreigners need to register their address. I did that in UK every time I move when I was under student visa. If you fail to register within 7 days or so, you will be hit with a fine and other consequences. I also need to fill in my address in US every time I visit US. I assume it is normal for people traveling to westerns, but not very normal for westerners themselves. Most tourism countries, hotels do registration for you, sometimes you fill an extra form when you check in.
Depends on where she lived. Beijing, Shanghai and other first tier cities are ok for foreigners. The further away you get, the more blurry situation gets.
whimsicalism(3)
Hey what sort of bullshit is this HN?
I was reading a reply by a guy who counter-commented on this, a bunch of links of people on YouTube walking around this same area and not seeing anything like this.
Then went to comment, and it says "flagged" and was deleted, in under 10 minutes.
I don't really care about politics or China at all, but that is some spooky-tier censorship here on HN. Wtf is going on here?
Here's one of the links I followed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wENwvxsfVM8
I was reading a reply by a guy who counter-commented on this, a bunch of links of people on YouTube walking around this same area and not seeing anything like this.
Then went to comment, and it says "flagged" and was deleted, in under 10 minutes.
I don't really care about politics or China at all, but that is some spooky-tier censorship here on HN. Wtf is going on here?
Here's one of the links I followed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wENwvxsfVM8
If that link is the best representation of the lot, then yeah, they deserved to be deleted. Walking around a neighborhood with a high density of a given ethnicity, showing them managing to enjoy the life they have does nothing to discredit the idea that the same ethnicity is oppressed and heavily targeted.
Or to put it another way with a much more mild example, you can make a video full of happy black folks in some of the most backwards racist oppressive parts of the US. The existence of happy people does not negate the oppression they continue to endure.
Or to put it another way with a much more mild example, you can make a video full of happy black folks in some of the most backwards racist oppressive parts of the US. The existence of happy people does not negate the oppression they continue to endure.
I'm not intending/trying to start any sort of argument about how things actually are.
I have no idea. I've never been to China. It could be really bad, exactly the way the video makes it out to be. The video could be dramatized, and not representative of the situation as a whole.
I'm not sure I would believe things that China told me about the US
By the same logic, I'm not sure I believe all the things that US/US-allied media tell me about China
Without access to verifiably unbiased information (which is difficult in an age where nations have entire agencies dedicated to misinformation for political purposes) it's something that's hard for me to form an objective opinion on. And I'm not that invested in it to want to form an opinion.
I just wanted to point out this odd behavior that I've not seen much of on here.
I have no idea. I've never been to China. It could be really bad, exactly the way the video makes it out to be. The video could be dramatized, and not representative of the situation as a whole.
I'm not sure I would believe things that China told me about the US
By the same logic, I'm not sure I believe all the things that US/US-allied media tell me about China
Without access to verifiably unbiased information (which is difficult in an age where nations have entire agencies dedicated to misinformation for political purposes) it's something that's hard for me to form an objective opinion on. And I'm not that invested in it to want to form an opinion.
I just wanted to point out this odd behavior that I've not seen much of on here.
I encourage you to apply occam's razor here. I don’t think any political entity has any interest in controlling what individuals post on a tiny website like HN.
Here is the post that has vanished:
https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=29684814
The comment boiled down to:
I just wanted to call out this very odd behavior. I don't see HN as a place where people who speak objectively + respectfully get silenced, generally.
https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=29684814
> I don’t think any political entity has any interest in controlling what individuals post on a tiny website like HN.
The comment boiled down to:
"VICE isn't what I'd call the most reputable/unbiased source. I'd encourage everyone to do their own research/make their own decision. Here are a bunch of links of people walking around the same area, and it looks nothing like what is cut together from that VICE episode."
I just wanted to call out this very odd behavior. I don't see HN as a place where people who speak objectively + respectfully get silenced, generally.
As for the flagging, I believe HN auto-flags comments from new accounts that receive a large number of downvotes as an anti-spam feature.
If you enable showdead on your profile, you’ll see that this comment is denying the well documented genocide that is occurring in these regions. That will rightfully annoy many people here, hence the downvotes.
So using the razor, I think we can conclude what happened.
User makes a new throwaway account to spread easily disproved information
Other users downvote the misinformation
HN autoflags the comment to protect against preceived-spam.
Although you are right to question what you see. It is never wrong to take a second to ask “what’s going on here?”
So using the razor, I think we can conclude what happened.
User makes a new throwaway account to spread easily disproved information
Other users downvote the misinformation
HN autoflags the comment to protect against preceived-spam.
Although you are right to question what you see. It is never wrong to take a second to ask “what’s going on here?”
Enable showdead in settings to view flagged comments.
There are other rules that are unrelated to being objective or respectful
There are a lot of people "with an agenda" here, to say the least. And unlike Slashdot you cannot reply to flagged or dead comments which benefits those people.
> a bunch of links of people on YouTube walking around this same area and not seeing anything like this.
There is heavy tracking and surveillance in China [1], especially in Xinjiang [2][3].
Hence any reporting of Xinjiang, including the YouTube links you mentioned and posted, have selection bias.
That is, unfavorable reports or videos are censored, while favorable videos are selected, if not outright sponsored as part of large-scale online disinformation campaigns [5][6].
=====
The tracking and surveillance of reporters in Xinjiang, where journalists are tracked and have photos deleted for no reasons [2]:
The tracking and surveillance of reporters in general, using the pandemic as an excuse and using visas for control [3]:
The sponsorship of favorable YouTube and other social media videos, also covering ethnic mintorities [5]:
> Hey what sort of bullshit is this HN?
This sort of bullshit (sponsored videos) should not be promoted on HN, which may fuel the disinformation campaigns [5][6].
[1]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/29/china-province... "Chinese province targets journalists and students in planned surveillance system"
[2]: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/insider/china-xinjiang-re... "Being Tracked While Reporting in China, Where ‘There Are No Whys’"
[3]: https://www.newsweek.com/china-harassing-intimidating-journa... "China Harassing, Intimidating Journalists With Surveillance Built to Curb COVID-19"
[4]: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/12/13/technology/ch... "How Beijing Influences the Influencers"
[5]: https://web.archive.org/web/20211224143113/https://www.nytim... "How Beijing Influences the Influencers"
[6]: https://miburo.substack.com/p/cotton-the-act "Cotton the Act: Large-Scale Network of CCP-aligned Facebook Accounts Deny Mass Atrocity in China's Xinjiang Province"
Edits: added more links.
There is heavy tracking and surveillance in China [1], especially in Xinjiang [2][3].
Hence any reporting of Xinjiang, including the YouTube links you mentioned and posted, have selection bias.
That is, unfavorable reports or videos are censored, while favorable videos are selected, if not outright sponsored as part of large-scale online disinformation campaigns [5][6].
=====
The tracking and surveillance of reporters in Xinjiang, where journalists are tracked and have photos deleted for no reasons [2]:
I was in Kashgar to report on how the Chinese authorities had turned to technology to cement their control of the Xinjiang territory, a region in the west of the country. Foreign journalists who travel there are tracked. I became one of the watched.
[...snipped...]
Another time, a police officer stopped us close to our hotel. Inspecting Chris’s photos, he deleted a shot of a camel. When Chris asked why that photo was deleted, the man turned to Chris and said, “In China, there are no whys.”.
The tracking and surveillance of reporters in general, using the pandemic as an excuse and using visas for control [3]:
Several foreign and domestic journalists were forced to abandon stories after being told "to leave or be quarantined on the spot," the report highlighted. Press credentials were commonly canceled by Beijing officials and embassies were routinely tasked with trying to renew revoked visas from journalists. The report said foreign journalists were used as "pawns" in China's international diplomatic disputes.
The sponsorship of favorable YouTube and other social media videos, also covering ethnic mintorities [5]:
The Barretts are part of a crop of new social media personalities who paint cheery portraits of life as foreigners in China — and also hit back at criticisms of Beijing’s authoritarian governance, its policies toward ethnic minorities and its handling of the coronavirus.
[...snipped...]
State-run news outlets and local governments have organized and funded pro-Beijing influencers’ travel, according to government documents and the creators themselves. They have paid or offered to pay the creators. They have generated lucrative traffic for the influencers by sharing videos with millions of followers on YouTube, Twitter and Facebook.
[...snipped...]
His videos do not mention the internal government documents, firsthand testimonials and visits by journalists that indicate that the Chinese authorities have held hundreds of thousands of Xinjiang’s Muslims in re-education camps.
They also do not mention his and his family’s business ties to the Chinese state.
> Hey what sort of bullshit is this HN?
This sort of bullshit (sponsored videos) should not be promoted on HN, which may fuel the disinformation campaigns [5][6].
[1]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/29/china-province... "Chinese province targets journalists and students in planned surveillance system"
[2]: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/insider/china-xinjiang-re... "Being Tracked While Reporting in China, Where ‘There Are No Whys’"
[3]: https://www.newsweek.com/china-harassing-intimidating-journa... "China Harassing, Intimidating Journalists With Surveillance Built to Curb COVID-19"
[4]: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/12/13/technology/ch... "How Beijing Influences the Influencers"
[5]: https://web.archive.org/web/20211224143113/https://www.nytim... "How Beijing Influences the Influencers"
[6]: https://miburo.substack.com/p/cotton-the-act "Cotton the Act: Large-Scale Network of CCP-aligned Facebook Accounts Deny Mass Atrocity in China's Xinjiang Province"
Edits: added more links.
> This sort of bullshit (sponsored videos) should not be promoted on HN.
The original commenter says "China is X way".
Someone responds and says "China is Y way."
Everyone ought to be able to upvote/downvote, and argue + discuss to their hearts content.
I have no horse in this race, but I would have expected the person to just get downvoted into oblivion or responded to with posts like yours, containing responding counter-arguments/links, if the majority of people disagree with or hold contrary evidence to.
My reaction was less to do it about it being anything specifically related to China, and more about the principle/premise of the matter.
It could equally have been "Person 1 says eggs are bad for you, Person 2 says eggs are good for you." and I would have had the same reaction.
There is a big difference between real debate on real issues - the example egg nutrition lol. Versus trying to refute or distract with a 'debate' on reality & facts.
Some things shouldn't be up for debate and calling doubt on reality is a weapon used by those who have political stakes.
China is a tough one too because as we saw on a top HN post from a few days ago we know the CCP has a large, active operation to comment and engage in online forums to sway opinion.
Article gave examples of typical straw man, whataboutism, handy wavy redirection.
The kind of comments exactly like what got flagged.
Some things shouldn't be up for debate and calling doubt on reality is a weapon used by those who have political stakes.
China is a tough one too because as we saw on a top HN post from a few days ago we know the CCP has a large, active operation to comment and engage in online forums to sway opinion.
Article gave examples of typical straw man, whataboutism, handy wavy redirection.
The kind of comments exactly like what got flagged.
This HN post?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29661475 "Spamouflage: CCP-Aligned Disinformation Campaign on Facebook Twitter YouTube"
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29661475 "Spamouflage: CCP-Aligned Disinformation Campaign on Facebook Twitter YouTube"
I think same news source! but this was the big thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29654137
There have been a few over the years. One I remember talked about a gamified app which is like so innovative and sad at the same time
There have been a few over the years. One I remember talked about a gamified app which is like so innovative and sad at the same time
> I'm personally opposed to the idea of visiting certain countries, such as China and North Korea, to 'see for yourself', especially when you don't know the language, when you're not willing to risk your life to understand and uncover the parts the government doesn't want you to see
I'm personally opposed to the idea of visiting certain countries, such as USA since they searched phones at the border and you could be treated like a criminal based on who knows what.
I'm personally opposed to the idea of visiting certain countries, such as USA since they searched phones at the border and you could be treated like a criminal based on who knows what.
The difference is that in the USA the media is allowed, and does cover this. In China, there is absolute suppression of free speech/media/religion, and the active internment of people who dissent.
You can't even compare the USA and China; China is objectively less free and more repressive.
You can't even compare the USA and China; China is objectively less free and more repressive.
On a lower frequency, this similar to why I'm not interested in tourism as "self-discovery", "new experience", or some shit, like the rest of the world is just stage and props for my existential theatre. I'm not gonna change as a human unless I actually move there to live permanently. Even worse, the middle-class trend to make the number of distinct places you've visited some form of social currency ("how many stamps are in your passport?").
I remember this sales guy who always made it a point to tell every woman he talked to that he did Peace Corps in Africa and how it changed him working with Africans. Like, you could've just volunteered somewhere on the south side of the city if you really wanted to help some African folk.
I remember this sales guy who always made it a point to tell every woman he talked to that he did Peace Corps in Africa and how it changed him working with Africans. Like, you could've just volunteered somewhere on the south side of the city if you really wanted to help some African folk.
Are you saying Africans and (black, which I assume you mean but I’m trying to be charitable) people in your city are basically the same? I imagine the lives and cultures in Africa are vastly different than whatever city you’re in.
I think OP is talking about some kind of "charity tourism" that's happening. I think Europe has some effects like this, too, where people prefer to go to Africa to "help some children" while they could be "doing good" by getting active in local organisations. No need to travel some thousand kilometres for that.
You're also assuming that their town doesn't have a lot of African immigrants living on its south side, and that the speaker wasn't (very questionably) saying that their experience with Africans affected the way they interacted with local black people.
That’s why I mentioned lives and cultures in Africa. African immigrant lives in x city are gonna be different than in Africa.
If the only way for you to deal with Black skin charitably be that they be some exotic Other "over there", that're 'different', who 'actually have it bad', and that you don't need to ever run into again, then you're part of a problem and don't know why.
Africa won't want for charitable aid labor in spite of this sentiment, it just can field those grunt work jobs from people who're, you know, from the area itself rather than Western tourists looking for a story to tell or a CV to pad.
Africa won't want for charitable aid labor in spite of this sentiment, it just can field those grunt work jobs from people who're, you know, from the area itself rather than Western tourists looking for a story to tell or a CV to pad.
Do you really think you can't learn anything as a tourist?
Most people can't learn anything and they don't want to. It is impossible to explain what living in a slum is like to a middle class woke guy.
Well if you're being that reductionist, what's the point in doing or learning anything? Why is tourism any more useless than any other pointless attempt for a woke guy to learn something?
Learn anything? Certainly you can realize the true scale of Angkor Wat.
> I'm not gonna change as a human unless I actually move there to live permanently.
This, in my experience, is simply not true.
There is a value in going to different places, changing every variable there is to your life except yourself.
When you are somewhere you've never been to, where you know nobody, where the food, language and customs are all different, then you can find out which parts of yourself stay, who you are and what you are capable of. That has value.
This, in my experience, is simply not true.
There is a value in going to different places, changing every variable there is to your life except yourself.
When you are somewhere you've never been to, where you know nobody, where the food, language and customs are all different, then you can find out which parts of yourself stay, who you are and what you are capable of. That has value.
Maybe, but too many think that visiting a resort town in a far flung country has given them a meaningful experience of "otherness" as if those same resorts weren't purpose built to coddle to foreigners being out of their element.
And even if you do fall through the tourism system and find yourself elbow to elbow with a native, the thought that you as a foreigner will unlock their culture in handful of days when most natural born members of a group will be learning their own eccentricities to the day they die is one of the more disgusting flavors of arrogance.
And even if you do fall through the tourism system and find yourself elbow to elbow with a native, the thought that you as a foreigner will unlock their culture in handful of days when most natural born members of a group will be learning their own eccentricities to the day they die is one of the more disgusting flavors of arrogance.
There are plenty of pitfalls to the attitude that tourism will grant enlightenment, but I agree that some amount travel is crucial. Experiencing a different society (the everyday bits, not just the facade shown to tourists), even for a short amount of time, helps to humanize the people living in that society (or really, any society other than your own). Never straying from one place for your entire life is a great way to cultivate the attitude that the only "real" culture is the one that you're familiar with. In a connected world, empathy for people outside your own immediate sphere is important, and even a small amount of travel to a small number of places will generally suffice to begin developing this sort of empathy.
It's just, you don't need a plane ticket and a passport to satisfy these goals
[deleted]
This is mostly because they don't know how to register foreign passports. If you show them how to do it and present your passport, it is not an issue.
https://www.lostlaowai.com/blog/china-stuff/china-travel/for...
So many foreigners/laowai spread the same misinformation. You can stay, if you have sufficient Chinese/Mandarin, you can explain the above and it works. If you have a good friend explain, it also works. Most say the same thing as you "kicked out" "not allowed" or "rascism".
Not true at all, - at some hotels where I stayed I was really the first foreigner to ever pass through. (I wasn't staying in typical Shanghai places for example, more north and more west.)
Not an issue at all, explained, showed, registered, done.
https://www.lostlaowai.com/blog/china-stuff/china-travel/for...
So many foreigners/laowai spread the same misinformation. You can stay, if you have sufficient Chinese/Mandarin, you can explain the above and it works. If you have a good friend explain, it also works. Most say the same thing as you "kicked out" "not allowed" or "rascism".
Not true at all, - at some hotels where I stayed I was really the first foreigner to ever pass through. (I wasn't staying in typical Shanghai places for example, more north and more west.)
Not an issue at all, explained, showed, registered, done.
In every other country you show them your passport, you write your signature and you pay a deposit - done.
In China you either need to go through an agency that have something similar to "The Negro Motorist Green Book" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Motorist_Green_Book), or you need to speak Chinese, convince the reception that they don't need a certificate they believe they're legally required to have, convince the reception to call the owner who will no doubt repeat a foreigner is not allowed, then you need to contact the police to convince the owner, if the police agree that a certificate is required then you need to convince the police that they don't know their own laws, convince them to call the Provincial Foreign Affairs Bureau.. that's what the person in your blogpost has been doing. She even told the police to give her their badge numbers so she could file an official complaint. That person is certainly living on the edge.
Even if it's technically legal, then surely the end result will be the same - 9/10 hotels and apartments will refuse foreigners (for the apartments I rented then everything was done on paper, I doubt they have the booking system mentioned in the blogpost - not sure if all hotels use the same since I have never walked behind the desk and looked at their computer.. and they probably wouldn't allow it if I asked) because who in their right mind want to spend several hours and likely get the police involved just so they can rent a room for 200rmb.
In China you either need to go through an agency that have something similar to "The Negro Motorist Green Book" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Motorist_Green_Book), or you need to speak Chinese, convince the reception that they don't need a certificate they believe they're legally required to have, convince the reception to call the owner who will no doubt repeat a foreigner is not allowed, then you need to contact the police to convince the owner, if the police agree that a certificate is required then you need to convince the police that they don't know their own laws, convince them to call the Provincial Foreign Affairs Bureau.. that's what the person in your blogpost has been doing. She even told the police to give her their badge numbers so she could file an official complaint. That person is certainly living on the edge.
Even if it's technically legal, then surely the end result will be the same - 9/10 hotels and apartments will refuse foreigners (for the apartments I rented then everything was done on paper, I doubt they have the booking system mentioned in the blogpost - not sure if all hotels use the same since I have never walked behind the desk and looked at their computer.. and they probably wouldn't allow it if I asked) because who in their right mind want to spend several hours and likely get the police involved just so they can rent a room for 200rmb.
It's the same in China for most hotels that know what they're doing. " In every other country you show them your passport, you write your signature and you pay a deposit - done.".
If you go off the beaten path or less than 4 stars hotels, then that.
And not unique just in China, Japan will do it too with some places - granted mostly it's love hotels which is ironic cause they're not supposed to know whose checking in, no passport is required, but many a foreigner can't read Kanji or talk.
If you go off the beaten path or less than 4 stars hotels, then that.
And not unique just in China, Japan will do it too with some places - granted mostly it's love hotels which is ironic cause they're not supposed to know whose checking in, no passport is required, but many a foreigner can't read Kanji or talk.
> In every other country you show them your passport, you write your signature and you pay a deposit - done.
There are nearly 200 countries on this planet, in that context your claim sounds more like quite the generalization, on your part, rather than an actual fact.
edit; Wow, never would have thought that stating a simple fact could be controversial on HN.
What is going on in these comments? People acting like everybody is American/Canadian, and as if the whole world is all the same, but only China is some weird outlier, smh
There are nearly 200 countries on this planet, in that context your claim sounds more like quite the generalization, on your part, rather than an actual fact.
edit; Wow, never would have thought that stating a simple fact could be controversial on HN.
What is going on in these comments? People acting like everybody is American/Canadian, and as if the whole world is all the same, but only China is some weird outlier, smh
Reminds me of this channel 4 [0] interview with writer Benjamin Zephaniah. Tbh I find his reasoning, go there and see for yourself, much more convincing than your reasoning.
Particularly this;
> when you're not willing to risk your life to understand and uncover the parts the government doesn't want you to see
Just reads like FUD, it's not China that locks up people at the highest rate on the planet. That "feat" is reserved to a country were nobody would say "don't visit there you might die!" even tho the chance for that to happen there is much more likely than in China or NK, where most police don't even carry guns.
[0] https://youtu.be/zowOkv0Cuhk
Particularly this;
> when you're not willing to risk your life to understand and uncover the parts the government doesn't want you to see
Just reads like FUD, it's not China that locks up people at the highest rate on the planet. That "feat" is reserved to a country were nobody would say "don't visit there you might die!" even tho the chance for that to happen there is much more likely than in China or NK, where most police don't even carry guns.
[0] https://youtu.be/zowOkv0Cuhk
Considering the locked up two Canadians in retaliation for Canada arresting Meng Wanghzu. I just don't see how I could go there and not have anxiety for the whole trip.
It's a shame though, I always wanted to see China.
It's a shame though, I always wanted to see China.
I have Canadian citizenship and lived in China when the two Michaels were locked up. In reality, even if the worst fears are true and every foreigner is explicitly tracked and constantly monitored by the local police department, it still wouldn't really be worth the government's effort to "disappear" the average foreigner, or even "invite them to tea". Most of us simply aren't that influential or important.
Of course, it does feel a bit suspicious when you say something mildly critical of the government online or during a meal with friends and then "mysteriously" the next day your VPN stops working, but it's just as likely that it could be coincidence and you're reading too much into it. But that's exactly how things are supposed to work in an authoritarian regime. Most of the time the government isn't explicitly watching over everyone, but because the legal system is deliberately opaque, everyone maintains a tiny bit of fear inside them that maybe they could be being watched, or that there might be a secret police just around the corner, so they self-censor and limit their behaviors just in case.
So, you're right that you might have anxiety the whole trip, but arguably that means you're getting to experience the "real China". Living under a constant chilling effect[0] is probably worse for locals than foreigners. At least as a foreigner you can leave when the pressure gets too much. Most locals don't have that privilege.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect
Of course, it does feel a bit suspicious when you say something mildly critical of the government online or during a meal with friends and then "mysteriously" the next day your VPN stops working, but it's just as likely that it could be coincidence and you're reading too much into it. But that's exactly how things are supposed to work in an authoritarian regime. Most of the time the government isn't explicitly watching over everyone, but because the legal system is deliberately opaque, everyone maintains a tiny bit of fear inside them that maybe they could be being watched, or that there might be a secret police just around the corner, so they self-censor and limit their behaviors just in case.
So, you're right that you might have anxiety the whole trip, but arguably that means you're getting to experience the "real China". Living under a constant chilling effect[0] is probably worse for locals than foreigners. At least as a foreigner you can leave when the pressure gets too much. Most locals don't have that privilege.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect
> I have Canadian citizenship and lived in China when the two Michaels were locked up.
Who were only locked up after Canada locked up a Chinese citizen at the request of the US.
Weirdly enough, that is framed in a completely different context than China's response to it.
Who were only locked up after Canada locked up a Chinese citizen at the request of the US.
Weirdly enough, that is framed in a completely different context than China's response to it.
A very prominent businessperson being held for allowing her company to commit fraud and violate US sanctions in a country that has an extradition treaty with the US is not the same thing as a country "suddenly" detaining two expats, in an immediate and obvious response to the previous lawful detention. The two Michaels weren't even charged with anything after they had been detained, imprisoned and interrogated for 5+ months! Meanwhile Meng Wanzhou was able to continue living a relatively comfortable life under home arrest. It's not fair to suggest that the average person - Chinese or not - will just randomly be arrested and imprisoned for months in Canada, with no charges filed whatsoever. The same thing happens frequently in China.
> Considering the locked up two Canadians in retaliation for Canada arresting Meng Wanghzu.
So let's just ignore the context of why and how that happened, or what kind of anxiety that translates to for Chinese people visiting countries like Canada or the US?
I mean, who there started arresting other nations nationals as geopolitical gambling chips? It wasn't China, it was Canada at the command of the US.
> I just don't see how I could go there and not have anxiety for the whole trip.
As a German national, I don't see how or why that should affect me. Can you please expand on your reasoning there?
So let's just ignore the context of why and how that happened, or what kind of anxiety that translates to for Chinese people visiting countries like Canada or the US?
I mean, who there started arresting other nations nationals as geopolitical gambling chips? It wasn't China, it was Canada at the command of the US.
> I just don't see how I could go there and not have anxiety for the whole trip.
As a German national, I don't see how or why that should affect me. Can you please expand on your reasoning there?
As other posts have said, the GFW isn’t just a whole heap of blocked IPs. There’s some of that (Google, FB, etc.), but a lot more of it is DPI and other inspection techniques that also have the effect of slowing overseas data to a crawl. In that sense it is quite sophisticated.
I remember getting 300KB/sec at the best of times to overseas sites. VPNs didn’t really make a difference for speed (I believe I had poor routing on top of that), but I could use WG and SS to maintain access to blocked content for weeks on end.
The end result is that internet users are corralled into domestic services where the CCP can flex its power. If anything overseas continues to be too anti-government then it cops a more concrete block.
As also mentioned, the educated class might get VPN access but Joe Bloggs on the street won’t know how to. Also, it’s hard to get a VPN from within China, but once set up with one you can relatively easily keep using it.
I remember getting 300KB/sec at the best of times to overseas sites. VPNs didn’t really make a difference for speed (I believe I had poor routing on top of that), but I could use WG and SS to maintain access to blocked content for weeks on end.
The end result is that internet users are corralled into domestic services where the CCP can flex its power. If anything overseas continues to be too anti-government then it cops a more concrete block.
As also mentioned, the educated class might get VPN access but Joe Bloggs on the street won’t know how to. Also, it’s hard to get a VPN from within China, but once set up with one you can relatively easily keep using it.
How does DPI work on encrypted traffic? Most of the web uses HTTPS now. Are they able to decrypt most of that?
SNI often allows you to discern the domain being accessed, and depending on how well you know that domain, the nature of the traffic flows can unwrap a lot more than most people would really like (timing and sizes of requests/responses - even wrapped with https, the size of a GET vs POST uploading data are pretty obvious).
The GF doesn't care about 100% accuracy either. They won't always perfectly ban stuff. But they will hinder it often enough to make some "banned" service effectively useless inside China.
The GF doesn't care about 100% accuracy either. They won't always perfectly ban stuff. But they will hinder it often enough to make some "banned" service effectively useless inside China.
No they don't. But they are able to classify the encrypted traffic (e.g. if it's used as VPN)
I think visiting and seeing the country for yourself is a good idea. I have a lot of experience with the country (lived there, keep in contact with many friends from there, consume a lot of TV and podcasts from there), and the picture of it usually painted by Hacker News comments is completely different from what I've experienced. I usually avoid the topic here, though, because heterodox opinions often are met with hostility or accusations of being propaganda.
In general, when it comes to other countries, I think visiting them when possible and talking with the people there when you can is often eye-opening and can reveal personal biases you didn't realize you had. To give another example, speaking with people from the former Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc made me realize that many of the assumptions I had (adopted from the traditional "common sense" American narrative) were overly simplistic or just plain wrong.
In general, when it comes to other countries, I think visiting them when possible and talking with the people there when you can is often eye-opening and can reveal personal biases you didn't realize you had. To give another example, speaking with people from the former Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc made me realize that many of the assumptions I had (adopted from the traditional "common sense" American narrative) were overly simplistic or just plain wrong.
I doubt you're getting the accurate picture still
> lived there
China is fast devolving into dicatorship's way of life. 2+ years away is along time.
> keep in contact with many friends
Those friends are afraid to say anything negative to a foreigner living outside the guo on a platform closely watched by the government
> consume a lot of TV and podcasts from there
Government approved safe and patriotic contents
You have to be a native citizen who is living there 10+ years to understand
> lived there
China is fast devolving into dicatorship's way of life. 2+ years away is along time.
> keep in contact with many friends
Those friends are afraid to say anything negative to a foreigner living outside the guo on a platform closely watched by the government
> consume a lot of TV and podcasts from there
Government approved safe and patriotic contents
You have to be a native citizen who is living there 10+ years to understand
IME the Great Firewall doesn't outright block global traffic apart from some selected services, but makes them so unreliable and slow that it's almost impossible to directly connect and use services from the other side (think 'analog modem speed'), companies (maybe just IT companies, not sure) can get an exemption (they need to connect to github after all), but even then it's not very reliable.
If Steam had a working 'global service' then it almost certainly used local datacenters as proxy. But AFAIK PC gaming is pretty much seen as a niche for computer nerds though (apart from E-Sports), gaming mostly happens on mobile phones.
If Steam had a working 'global service' then it almost certainly used local datacenters as proxy. But AFAIK PC gaming is pretty much seen as a niche for computer nerds though (apart from E-Sports), gaming mostly happens on mobile phones.
There are no such exemptions, and I don't know from where did this idea came
I worked in Beijing at Microsoft Research in 2008 and at the time they had a fiber link to Japan that was completely uncensored and the fastest internet I had ever used at the time. Perhaps this is no longer allowed but it certainly used to exist.
We were buying exactly same "direct physical link" to HK. It came not to be such.
We connected a fibre tester, and nothing was coming out on hk side. We tried connecting to google.com, and to our surprise this "physical" link was also censored.
Then the cableman basically says, use this link, and VPN over it. The speed was quite good still.
We connected a fibre tester, and nothing was coming out on hk side. We tried connecting to google.com, and to our surprise this "physical" link was also censored.
Then the cableman basically says, use this link, and VPN over it. The speed was quite good still.
I worked multiple times for a few weeks at a game development company in Shanghai in 2017 which definitely had a GFW bypass in place, and it was explained to me that companies can obtain a "license" to legally do this. How much of this is true, I don't know, but I could access the global internet at full speed (minus some occasional hickups) from within the company network, but not elsewhere.
There absolutely are, or at least were. I attended a computer security competition in Shanghai in 2016, and the organizers told us explicitly that they’d obtained an exemption to get unfiltered internet access at the site. It was indeed unfiltered - Google and such worked fine - and an IP test showed us connecting from a Chinese ISP (so, not a VPN).
As this was about five years ago, the situation may well have changed, but at the time exemptions definitely were possible.
As this was about five years ago, the situation may well have changed, but at the time exemptions definitely were possible.
They VPN tunnel to POP, and then advertise their net from there.
It is indeed a country full of contradictions.
I was there in 2016, and besides the usual, like Google, Netflix, Facebook or Twitter, most western sites seemed to work, just very, very slow for some reason.
Also, some high end hotels did provide unfettered access to the Internet for some reason, so I guess anyone could go there and browse Facebook for the price of an expensive coffee.
I was there in 2016, and besides the usual, like Google, Netflix, Facebook or Twitter, most western sites seemed to work, just very, very slow for some reason.
Also, some high end hotels did provide unfettered access to the Internet for some reason, so I guess anyone could go there and browse Facebook for the price of an expensive coffee.
That time is gone meanwhile. In late 2019 I had a very hard time getting access to my Gmail account, despite trying all the usual workarounds and staying in the best hotels in town. Even non-English news sites were blocked, sites that I could browse freely just a few years ago.
Skype worked ok, but text chat only. Images never arrived.
Skype worked ok, but text chat only. Images never arrived.
Funnily enough, Google Fi worked just fine in late 2019.
I’m wondering if foreign SIM cards are not subjected to filtering.
I’m wondering if foreign SIM cards are not subjected to filtering.
Foreign SIM cards on globs roaming are not passed through the GFW as traffic is carried back to the ‘origin country’ before being sent to the internet writ large. So IP lookups still think you’re in your original country. I used global roaming when working in China to circumvent the GFW (albeit at high expense for data).
During my last visit using GoogleFI, the mobile phone shows a US IP when running whatismyip. So even though the phone is connected to the local telecom 5G network, traffic is segmented and routed back to the US carrier (T-Mobile in AWS US east IP ranges if I remember correctly) before hitting any website. So phones with GoogleFI sim works like a US client with a bit higher latency. This was really nice, but attempting to tether another device to the phone was a highly frustrating exercise as it did not work reliably whatsoever.
Google Fi, along with many other mobile telecoms, tend to limit the speed that you can attain from tethering, especially when roaming. Since computers don’t usually expect this, programs tend to misbehave on such metered connections.
In fact, I built a tool to specifically circumvent this: https://github.com/nneonneo/iOS-SOCKS-Server. It provides a SOCKS proxy through which you can tunnel any TCP connection, and have the connection appear to originate from your phone (and thus not be subject to the tethering rate limit). I used this when I was in China recently (2019).
In fact, I built a tool to specifically circumvent this: https://github.com/nneonneo/iOS-SOCKS-Server. It provides a SOCKS proxy through which you can tunnel any TCP connection, and have the connection appear to originate from your phone (and thus not be subject to the tethering rate limit). I used this when I was in China recently (2019).
From what I read, the way mobile data roaming is designed is basically like a VPN that connects you to your own home provider. Thus if you're roaming in China you don't get the renowned GFW hospitality. That's why some local people use foreign / HongKong sim cards for GFW-less mobile data.
I used Google Fi in early 2020 in China.
iirc it really just depended on where you were... Sometimes Fi let me break through the GFW, but it definitely did not in Beijing.
iirc it really just depended on where you were... Sometimes Fi let me break through the GFW, but it definitely did not in Beijing.
It should always, because the APNs (gateway for your IP packets) for Google Fi are in the US no matter where you are roaming from. That’s standard fare for any cellular service: you always connect to the internet gateways in your provider’s home country when roaming.
> It is indeed a country full of contradictions.
Over the years, I came to understand that contradictions are almost always just false assumptions.
Over the years, I came to understand that contradictions are almost always just false assumptions.
At least in this case, there aren’t any “false assumptions”.
For a country governed by a so called “communist” party, there are glaring inequalities. If we limit ourselves to free Internet usage, it’s clear that the system is designed so poor or uneducated people would only be able to consume government approved content, whereas elites could have access to anything.
For a country governed by a so called “communist” party, there are glaring inequalities. If we limit ourselves to free Internet usage, it’s clear that the system is designed so poor or uneducated people would only be able to consume government approved content, whereas elites could have access to anything.
> it’s clear that the system is designed so poor or uneducated people would only be able to consume government approved content
That's not by design, that's just the virtue of human ingenuity. Give us something we ain't supposed to do, and people will invest a lot of effort to still make it work.
Case in point; For a while Germany wanted to put Internet filters in place, based on DNS blocks [0]
Trivial to circumvent for anybody remotely familiar with networking, yet seemingly impossible for the vast majority of people who have no expertise in the field.
Was it designed like that to lock out the poor, uneducated, Germans?
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zugangserschwerungsgesetz
That's not by design, that's just the virtue of human ingenuity. Give us something we ain't supposed to do, and people will invest a lot of effort to still make it work.
Case in point; For a while Germany wanted to put Internet filters in place, based on DNS blocks [0]
Trivial to circumvent for anybody remotely familiar with networking, yet seemingly impossible for the vast majority of people who have no expertise in the field.
Was it designed like that to lock out the poor, uneducated, Germans?
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zugangserschwerungsgesetz
Not sure that I understand your take.
How does having "a communist" party imply that there would be no inequalities? Especially given that merely a few decades ago China was poor like hell and everyone outsourced all the cheap labor there?
> it’s clear that the system is designed so poor or uneducated people
Isn't education in China largely sponsored by government?
How does having "a communist" party imply that there would be no inequalities? Especially given that merely a few decades ago China was poor like hell and everyone outsourced all the cheap labor there?
> it’s clear that the system is designed so poor or uneducated people
Isn't education in China largely sponsored by government?
>Also, some high end hotels did provide unfettered access to the Internet for some reason, so I guess anyone could go there and browse Facebook for the price of an expensive coffee.
Practically everybody who is knowledgeable with computers uses a VPN - restrictions are only for "the plebs"
Practically everybody who is knowledgeable with computers uses a VPN - restrictions are only for "the plebs"
Whenever I read about countries banning sites, people post "just use a VPN, lol". But I wonder: If China really wants to, couldn't they just block VPNs? At the worst, just whitelist a bunch of sites and services and literally block everything else?
Technically, VPN apps are banned, and VPN usage by individuals is illegal in China. Don't know how much this is enforced though, probably not much.
The GFW is evolving. Many VPN protocols or servers that worked in the past works no longer. It’s definitely not as simple as “just run a VPN”, but more like a cat and mouse game.
They do. They fingerprint for OpenVPN in real time and block it. In 2018 I was cycling through multiple VPNs at a time. The only thing that worked was Shadowsocks.
Can confirm. I setup a Shadowsocks VPN using Streisand on a DO instance at the Singapore data center. That was the only way to get through the firewall.
I think this would make unworkable way too many things. Is it even the internet at that point?
That’s how I remember a friend advertising Ultrasurf to me — a vpn used in China
It’s not true that chinese don’t has “access to global internet”. Many sites are blocked (including most top sites), but still it’s a blacklist instead of a whitelist
I thought so too until one day I suddenly found myself was able to access google.com etc. without any issue for days until I search some sensitive keywords when I was in mainland China.
So the blocking seems to be heuristic instead of a blacklist. And also it seems GFW is able to filter SSL contents as I have always been using HTTPS if I can.
The GFW is not a monolith, it seems to differ depending on where you are. I think ISPs implement it differently.
The Beijing ones were the most sophisticated
The Beijing ones were the most sophisticated
I have been studying Mandarin and reading about China for years. I suspect that China is so big and diverse that the average Chinese person cannot speak generally about China. I wouldn’t expect someone who has only lived in Alabama to be able to describe America generally. Yet we fall into that trap often with other cultures.
I don't know who "we all" is who has the impression that China doesn't have access to the global internet. There must be thousands of people on this website alone who have either lived in China in the past or still do now who regularly comment and show that not to be the case. There are plenty of articles in the mainstream western media that discuss exactly how censorship and surveillance works in the country.
Steam is one of the few popular international services that escaped getting blocked by the Great Firewall, despite hosting content that the Chinese government ostensibly considers illegal or inappropriate. There have been a lot of articles about how Chinese indie game developers were using Steam as a loophole to sell their games without getting the official government approval to sell games inside China. It's never been clear why Steam was an exception to the blocks, but that's par for the course. The government never explains to the people why something gets blocked, sites just suddenly stop working from one day to the next and the people are expected to accept it and move on.
The internet blocks are set up by the internet providers in the country, so somebody must know what's going on, but - like many things that happen in China - the people just need to guess the reasoning by reading between the lines of impenetrable Party literature or relying on supposedly independent editorials in the tabloid newspapers.
So nobody knows for sure, but people have deduced that there are several reasons that the government blocks websites. One is as a "punishment" for a foreign company, because that company published content that insulted or offended some officials in the government. Another is if the foreign company is specifically and deliberately producing content aimed at Chinese-speakers that discusses topics the Chinese government does not want Chinese people to discuss freely (June 4/Tiananmen massacre, Hong Kong autonomy, alternative governing models that do not include the the Party at the core etc). Another one might be if the foreign company refuses to allow the Chinese government to install their surveillance hooks. But I think perhaps more relevant to the case of Steam is economic protectionism - the Chinese government tends to block foreign services that could compete with Chinese companies, so that Chinese companies can become dominant in the space.
The thing with Steam is that there wasn't really a local alternative with a wide enough catalog of games that it would please the middle class/educated/moneyed gamer in the country, so that's probably why Steam was quietly allowed to continue for so long. A few years ago Valve announced a partnership with Perfect World (local media company) to produce a Chinese version of Steam, but for whatever reason it took ages to come out. Now that it is out, and presumably up and running (I don't know since I don't live in China any more), the government has no incentive to allow people to buy from the international version, so that is probably why it now got blocked.
As usual, Chinese government only block in one direction - every day, every month, every year there are more and more things blocked. Eventually even though technically people in China are still able to visit most of the internet outside of China, the sites that are the most popular in China will all be owned by Chinese companies (or partnerships) and exist completely inside the monitoring and self-censorship bubble of the Chinese cultural sphere. So it's not like people in China don't have the opportunity to see other content, it's just that those other sources are very far outside the mainstream and not frequently accessed by the average person. If it did become popular, that's when the government would make a move.
Steam is one of the few popular international services that escaped getting blocked by the Great Firewall, despite hosting content that the Chinese government ostensibly considers illegal or inappropriate. There have been a lot of articles about how Chinese indie game developers were using Steam as a loophole to sell their games without getting the official government approval to sell games inside China. It's never been clear why Steam was an exception to the blocks, but that's par for the course. The government never explains to the people why something gets blocked, sites just suddenly stop working from one day to the next and the people are expected to accept it and move on.
The internet blocks are set up by the internet providers in the country, so somebody must know what's going on, but - like many things that happen in China - the people just need to guess the reasoning by reading between the lines of impenetrable Party literature or relying on supposedly independent editorials in the tabloid newspapers.
So nobody knows for sure, but people have deduced that there are several reasons that the government blocks websites. One is as a "punishment" for a foreign company, because that company published content that insulted or offended some officials in the government. Another is if the foreign company is specifically and deliberately producing content aimed at Chinese-speakers that discusses topics the Chinese government does not want Chinese people to discuss freely (June 4/Tiananmen massacre, Hong Kong autonomy, alternative governing models that do not include the the Party at the core etc). Another one might be if the foreign company refuses to allow the Chinese government to install their surveillance hooks. But I think perhaps more relevant to the case of Steam is economic protectionism - the Chinese government tends to block foreign services that could compete with Chinese companies, so that Chinese companies can become dominant in the space.
The thing with Steam is that there wasn't really a local alternative with a wide enough catalog of games that it would please the middle class/educated/moneyed gamer in the country, so that's probably why Steam was quietly allowed to continue for so long. A few years ago Valve announced a partnership with Perfect World (local media company) to produce a Chinese version of Steam, but for whatever reason it took ages to come out. Now that it is out, and presumably up and running (I don't know since I don't live in China any more), the government has no incentive to allow people to buy from the international version, so that is probably why it now got blocked.
As usual, Chinese government only block in one direction - every day, every month, every year there are more and more things blocked. Eventually even though technically people in China are still able to visit most of the internet outside of China, the sites that are the most popular in China will all be owned by Chinese companies (or partnerships) and exist completely inside the monitoring and self-censorship bubble of the Chinese cultural sphere. So it's not like people in China don't have the opportunity to see other content, it's just that those other sources are very far outside the mainstream and not frequently accessed by the average person. If it did become popular, that's when the government would make a move.
I don't know where did you get all this. There is not much "strategy" you imagined.
A censor find something matching a keyword, and he gets CNY 0.5. That's the whole story to it.
A censor find something matching a keyword, and he gets CNY 0.5. That's the whole story to it.
There's a small minority of college educated youth that speak english and are able to use VPNs to bypass GFW.
I might be wrong, or it may changed in the meantime, but I had the impression that VPN traffic is also slowed down extremely. While it allows you to connect to any foreign service, it's so slow as to be nearly useless. I only tried VPN services that were located outside China though. Maybe there are Chinese VPN services which have a 'fast route' to the outside world (I'd be very surprised if this is legal though).
It depends on how your VPN services are hosted. I actually tried to host VPN myself on google app engine and the first time lasted a day or so before it was blocked.
The second time lasted 1 hour or so.
The I changed the strategy to create a VM in azure and it was never blocked for years, the only down time was M$ trying to save me some credit by automatically shutting it down as the load of the VM had always been almost 0%.
The I changed the strategy to create a VM in azure and it was never blocked for years, the only down time was M$ trying to save me some credit by automatically shutting it down as the load of the VM had always been almost 0%.
> VPN traffic is also slowed down extremely.
Exactly that. It took me >30 minutes just load my emails - if I found a spot where the VPN would connect at all. Basically I needed two coffees. One for the time to load the email, and the 2nd coffee to wait while my repliess were sending.
At the same time, access to Chinese websites was super-fast.
Exactly that. It took me >30 minutes just load my emails - if I found a spot where the VPN would connect at all. Basically I needed two coffees. One for the time to load the email, and the 2nd coffee to wait while my repliess were sending.
At the same time, access to Chinese websites was super-fast.
When I lived in China I rented a server in Hong Kong and ran OpenVPN, that pretty much worked fine. Back then VPNs weren't technically illegal I believe but that's changed in recent years. Major VPN providers would stop working for periods of time because China would keep blocking IPs.
Only if the GFW identifies you as likely VPN traffic do they throttle. I used Googles VPN service thingy and kept switching hosts everytime it slowed.
Wrong protocol. If GFW suspects that you are trying to bypass it without confidence, it slows you down instead.
I was in China for about a month, up until a couple weeks before the covid outbreak started. The internet was so locked down I could hardly do anything. Thankfully I had set up my laptop and home server with Wireguard, so I was able to route everything through my home server back in the US. Interestingly, the factory I was in had a room with a "special" connection to the internet, which apparently wasn't nearly as locked down (but probably monitored heavily). This was so they could do things like video calls with businesses outside the country. I don't know if this is representative of China in general, but it was certainly oppressive.
> Really makes you want to visit and see how this actually works for yourself. The more I read about China, the more unbelievably contradictive it gets.
It’s not really weird: most Chinese prefer the best choices possible, and if it isn’t blocked (and often even it is) they will use the service if t has more than a watered down local version. The government blocks internet global services via the great firewall because otherwise they would get used in China (and also makes jumping the wall annoying because otherwise more people would jump it).
It’s not really weird: most Chinese prefer the best choices possible, and if it isn’t blocked (and often even it is) they will use the service if t has more than a watered down local version. The government blocks internet global services via the great firewall because otherwise they would get used in China (and also makes jumping the wall annoying because otherwise more people would jump it).
I have been there more then once. Most of the web outside of China is blocked. The government actively blocks VPNs and any long lived connections (more then a few minutes) that cannot be identified is dropped. Not sure why that is so hard to understand.
There’s no contradiction if you understand that all those bans are on companies, not users. People just use VPN, like they did anyway, but for companies it means they have to comply with Chinese law to make money there.
Who would think that China doesn’t have internet?? They aren’t North Korea. Even Cuba where it’s literally banned has internet.
You should be sceptical of all the news about China that come from the West.
Words can deceive but behaviors never lie. I am inclined to believe what the West has to say about China, because China behaves in a way that gives veracity to many of the claims made by others about China, and what they are/aren't doing. Once you start making judgements based on behavior rather than "he-said/she-said", you will find that you make far more accurate decisions about things in general.
Why? It matches exactly my experience while being in China.
Because china is the rising power to US dominance, and both sides will discredit each other from time to time. Also western journalist orgs have an incentive to paint an unflavourable picture while getting non of the blowback.
Also, keep in mind yours is but one experience out of many.
Also, keep in mind yours is but one experience out of many.
China has no free press. Literally none. Hongkong's free press was obliterated shortly after China broke the treaties they had with the UK about keeping Hongkong independent. Try traveling to the areas where Uigurs are being detained to look for yourself if China is lying. You can't and so can't journalists or independent observers. Why is that?
Saying that both are bad and so nobody can be blamed is a bad faith argument.
Saying that both are bad and so nobody can be blamed is a bad faith argument.
Not what I'm saying. Blame both sides but this is just tit for tat behaviour that happens especially when one side deems the punishments unfair. You are never going to solve anything in that manner.
Same here. And lately I’m getting the feeling that people systematically “distrusting” western media takes on China, would just take Chinese media at face value.
> You should be sceptical of all the news about China that comes from China.
Fixed it for you.
Fixed it for you.
The average Joe in the West doesn't get absolutely any news directly from China, so I'm not sure of what you mean.
They would be surprised that they probably actually do.
I would change to directly from the CCP, because there is no independent free press in China at any meaningful scale.
Not only does a lot of their media get big readership online here, People's Daily and others.
Also does anyone know how much SCMP's independence has eroded now? I don't know that much on that one but it still gets placements in news aggregators for example as if it were the NyTimes.
CCP also pays for reach, spending millions to get their content in the large US based media like WaPo. Most people don't realize they are reading an ad, not an actual article by a WaPo reporter.
Though maybe funnily on the opposite end, a CCP persecuted group Falun Gong owns the Epoch Times, which has grown huge too. In the past few years they have been one of the top sources of social media/fb links. A lot of it is just meme & engage bait. but it's still interesting to think about.
Russia Today too ;)
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/dec/07/china-plan-for-... https://freedomhouse.org/report/special-report/2020/beijings... https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/china/ccp-buys-med...
I would change to directly from the CCP, because there is no independent free press in China at any meaningful scale.
Not only does a lot of their media get big readership online here, People's Daily and others.
Also does anyone know how much SCMP's independence has eroded now? I don't know that much on that one but it still gets placements in news aggregators for example as if it were the NyTimes.
CCP also pays for reach, spending millions to get their content in the large US based media like WaPo. Most people don't realize they are reading an ad, not an actual article by a WaPo reporter.
Though maybe funnily on the opposite end, a CCP persecuted group Falun Gong owns the Epoch Times, which has grown huge too. In the past few years they have been one of the top sources of social media/fb links. A lot of it is just meme & engage bait. but it's still interesting to think about.
Russia Today too ;)
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/dec/07/china-plan-for-... https://freedomhouse.org/report/special-report/2020/beijings... https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/china/ccp-buys-med...
I think you’re missing the point and just want to stand tall on the “China’s(CCP) not so bad!” opinion you are so dearly, devoted to.
By in the “West” what do you mean? US? North America? Any place but China?
By in the “West” what do you mean? US? North America? Any place but China?
Because it doesn't match the one message from the central government?
This also does not refer to the gaseous form of water, which was my first impression reading the headline
As an average Chinese citizen right now:
- You cannot travel abroad (no passport issued for average citizens, except for those that study/work abroad)
- You cannot go beyond China's intranet legally (VPN is technically illegal in China). VPN services keep getting slowed/banned.
- You cannot transfer much money out of country legally (50k limit a year, but you end up going to bank 10+ times just to be able to transfer 10k)
- You cannot watch Spiderman, BTS, squid game, porn and many many more things legally
- You have very little rights as LGBT
- You have to work 9-9-6. Which is why many citizens are lying flat (not working/pursuing marriage)
- You are constantly watched, monitored, "invited" to police station for tea, banned for posts that contain any words that are on the growing banned list
- You should not get rich (1/3 of billionaires have died or disappeared). The state discourages showing off wealth
- You have little recourse as a woman who is abused by men in power
- You are constantly subjugated to random mass covid testing, standing hours outside in the cold
- Oh and there's the yearly flood + shoddy buildings + crashing economy + crashing real estate + aging workforce + factory jobs leaving + dictatorship
终究怀揣的不安，是愈来愈近的丧钟声
- You cannot travel abroad (no passport issued for average citizens, except for those that study/work abroad)
- You cannot go beyond China's intranet legally (VPN is technically illegal in China). VPN services keep getting slowed/banned.
- You cannot transfer much money out of country legally (50k limit a year, but you end up going to bank 10+ times just to be able to transfer 10k)
- You cannot watch Spiderman, BTS, squid game, porn and many many more things legally
- You have very little rights as LGBT
- You have to work 9-9-6. Which is why many citizens are lying flat (not working/pursuing marriage)
- You are constantly watched, monitored, "invited" to police station for tea, banned for posts that contain any words that are on the growing banned list
- You should not get rich (1/3 of billionaires have died or disappeared). The state discourages showing off wealth
- You have little recourse as a woman who is abused by men in power
- You are constantly subjugated to random mass covid testing, standing hours outside in the cold
- Oh and there's the yearly flood + shoddy buildings + crashing economy + crashing real estate + aging workforce + factory jobs leaving + dictatorship
终究怀揣的不安，是愈来愈近的丧钟声
> You have to work 9-9-6. Which is why many citizens are lying flat (not working/pursuing marriage)
None of the government/public workers are working that schedule. Or someone who finds a job in the private companies who aren't insane.
> You are constantly subjugated to random mass covid testing, standing hours outside in the cold.
Speaking from anecdotal experience, my parent has been subjugated to none in 2021 because they were not living in an affected location. Mass covid testing are only carried out where there are outbreaks.
> You are constantly watched, monitored, "invited" to police station for tea, banned for posts that contain any words that are on the growing banned list
Might apply to your personal case? I don't know even one person who are constantly invited to police station for tea, despite having hundreds of friends in China.
> You cannot watch Spiderman, BTS, squid game, porn and many many more things legally
Except that everyone does, and I'm not aware of any prosecutions. Also, Spiderman, BTS, squid game does not even touch laws, they just haven't been screened in cinemas, you can still get them from different sources (which often means piracy in China).
> Oh and there's the yearly flood + shoddy buildings + crashing economy + crashing real estate + aging workforce + factory jobs leaving + dictatorship
We'll see then. The rhetoric have been around for decades.
Some of what you said is true to a degree, but you are painting it in a very biased fashion. China has a lot of flaws, but what you said certainly does not apply to an 'average' Chinese citizen. In fact, all of these combined are almost impossible to happen to a single Chinese citizen, average or not.
None of the government/public workers are working that schedule. Or someone who finds a job in the private companies who aren't insane.
> You are constantly subjugated to random mass covid testing, standing hours outside in the cold.
Speaking from anecdotal experience, my parent has been subjugated to none in 2021 because they were not living in an affected location. Mass covid testing are only carried out where there are outbreaks.
> You are constantly watched, monitored, "invited" to police station for tea, banned for posts that contain any words that are on the growing banned list
Might apply to your personal case? I don't know even one person who are constantly invited to police station for tea, despite having hundreds of friends in China.
> You cannot watch Spiderman, BTS, squid game, porn and many many more things legally
Except that everyone does, and I'm not aware of any prosecutions. Also, Spiderman, BTS, squid game does not even touch laws, they just haven't been screened in cinemas, you can still get them from different sources (which often means piracy in China).
> Oh and there's the yearly flood + shoddy buildings + crashing economy + crashing real estate + aging workforce + factory jobs leaving + dictatorship
We'll see then. The rhetoric have been around for decades.
Some of what you said is true to a degree, but you are painting it in a very biased fashion. China has a lot of flaws, but what you said certainly does not apply to an 'average' Chinese citizen. In fact, all of these combined are almost impossible to happen to a single Chinese citizen, average or not.
Are you saying China isn't constantly monitoring their population? Are they not the dystopian dictatorship they pretend not to be? I am not so sure I can be convinced when they literally tell citizens how long they can and cannot play video games.... Sorry, behaviors don't lie.
> Are you saying China isn't constantly monitoring their population? Are they not the dystopian dictatorship they pretend not to be?
I did not say anything like that. Why are you setting up a strawman when you can easily go and refute/debate any language in my previous comment? Do you have any disagreement with any specific things I have said? Please be specific.
I did not say anything like that. Why are you setting up a strawman when you can easily go and refute/debate any language in my previous comment? Do you have any disagreement with any specific things I have said? Please be specific.
By “monitoring” did you mean “cameras everywhere in case something happens” type of monitoring or the Orwellian mass surveillance?
As for the play-time restrictions —- how is it much different from drinking age restrictions that are pretty ubiquitous around the world?
As for the play-time restrictions —- how is it much different from drinking age restrictions that are pretty ubiquitous around the world?
> None of the government/public workers are working that schedule. Or someone who finds a job in the private companies who aren't insane.
Oddly enough, on my first trip to China in 1999, everyone was still expected to work Saturdays. The change to getting Saturday off is relatively recent…maybe 15 or so years ago?
> Except that everyone does, and I'm not aware of any prosecutions. Also, Spiderman, BTS, squid game does not even touch laws, they just haven't been screened in cinemas, you can still get them from different sources (which often means piracy in China).
“Rule by law”, as opposed to “rule of law”, means laws are arbitrarily enforced according to the whims of the party. So they aren’t going to prosecute you for watching banned media…until they want to get you for something (and in that case, they’ll find something).
Oddly enough, on my first trip to China in 1999, everyone was still expected to work Saturdays. The change to getting Saturday off is relatively recent…maybe 15 or so years ago?
> Except that everyone does, and I'm not aware of any prosecutions. Also, Spiderman, BTS, squid game does not even touch laws, they just haven't been screened in cinemas, you can still get them from different sources (which often means piracy in China).
“Rule by law”, as opposed to “rule of law”, means laws are arbitrarily enforced according to the whims of the party. So they aren’t going to prosecute you for watching banned media…until they want to get you for something (and in that case, they’ll find something).
This is the second time I've seen you try to piggyback off of a top HN comment without saying anything relevant to it.
Second time this week I saw this from the same user as well. Dang should pay some attention
This is a thread about Chinese citizens quickly and surely losing their freedom. Why wouldn't my upgraded comment be relevant?
Also, do you have anything to refute my comment?
Also, do you have anything to refute my comment?
Why you are posting the exact comment repeatedly? I saw this twice the past week in China related posts
Ok, this makes much more sense than the click-baity title, i already knew that to a degree.They'll probably never ban steam because it doesn't make sense, even if you are "PRC"
What is going on here with the comment section? Seems like it's flooded with pro ccp activists
I didn't read the comments but
1. it could be flooded with pro cpp activists, it's a known fact that China pays people to influence forums
2. It may be difficult to understand for Americans, but (I think) some people here are "pro-china" as they see China as an alternative to US imperialism, or at least something that can be less harmful.
Personally, my wife is Taiwanese so I'm extremely concerned about China in a very concrete way. I'm not sure the people who advertise themselves as "pro-China" really have a sense of what's going on.
Personally, my wife is Taiwanese so I'm extremely concerned about China in a very concrete way. I'm not sure the people who advertise themselves as "pro-China" really have a sense of what's going on.
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freeflight(2)
I must offer another data point. I'm British, and often find myself in these threads criticising criticism of China. Not because I'm being paid by the CCP, but because I believe that mainstream anti-Chinese sentiment tells us more about the West's psychological struggles to come to terms with its own historically unprecedented imperial past, than it does about China itself.
> West's psychological struggles to come to terms with its own historically unprecedented imperial past, than it does about China itself.
oh come on. we criticise China because it’s whole political system, that was set up very recently btw, fights against basic rights we take for granted in the West. not because of what the romans or european empires did hundreds of years ago, but because of what China is doing right now.
oh come on. we criticise China because it’s whole political system, that was set up very recently btw, fights against basic rights we take for granted in the West. not because of what the romans or european empires did hundreds of years ago, but because of what China is doing right now.
Whilst I readily admit that focussing my attention on the West's criticism of China depletes my limited resources to affect positive change in China, I actually believe I am ultimately having a greater impact.
What I'm saying is that if we truly have China's, or namely humanity's best interests at heart when we criticise China, then we could profoundly increase our effectiveness if we demonstrated even just a basic understanding of context. Namely that the West is defined by its colonialism — its power and influence comes from exploitation of more than half the world.
To give an example, if a government truly wants people to wear masks and socially isolate, then the prime minister (Boris Johnson of the UK in this case), should not throw private parties.
We can argue about whether what the West did was net good or bad, but I don't think we can argue about whether the effectiveness of one's words are diminished by acts that are contrary to those words.
What I'm saying is that if we truly have China's, or namely humanity's best interests at heart when we criticise China, then we could profoundly increase our effectiveness if we demonstrated even just a basic understanding of context. Namely that the West is defined by its colonialism — its power and influence comes from exploitation of more than half the world.
To give an example, if a government truly wants people to wear masks and socially isolate, then the prime minister (Boris Johnson of the UK in this case), should not throw private parties.
We can argue about whether what the West did was net good or bad, but I don't think we can argue about whether the effectiveness of one's words are diminished by acts that are contrary to those words.
Your context is where everyone already is as and your example appears to be wholly unrelated to your claim.
I don't think you are having a positive influence here.
I don't think you are having a positive influence here.
Could you give more details?
I like to think that anybody who has heard about the Vietnam war already knows what the West does in terms like colonialism.
I finally understood that your example related to self-consistency and that Boris' binges are not the definition of colonialism, so my suggestion about influence should be discarded.
I finally understood that your example related to self-consistency and that Boris' binges are not the definition of colonialism, so my suggestion about influence should be discarded.
you are cherry-picking history in order to further your narrative about exploitation.
in reality, humanity has been at war for millennia. the chinese have been at war with all their neighbours for centuries. slavery has been the status-quo until 200 years ago.
you are also assuming just because some politician is immoral than people will also be immoral. this is false.
does this have anything to do with how the chinese government treats its citizens in the present? not at all
in reality, humanity has been at war for millennia. the chinese have been at war with all their neighbours for centuries. slavery has been the status-quo until 200 years ago.
you are also assuming just because some politician is immoral than people will also be immoral. this is false.
does this have anything to do with how the chinese government treats its citizens in the present? not at all
Just for the record, and to be 100% clear. I hereby explicitly denounce the Chinese government's murder of innocent students at Tiananmen Square, and the genocide of the Uighurs.
But I think you are completely missing my point.
I don't believe the West actually wants to improve the world. It wants so much power that it can avoid looking at its own past, and present for that matter.
But I think you are completely missing my point.
I don't believe the West actually wants to improve the world. It wants so much power that it can avoid looking at its own past, and present for that matter.
Those rights are available domestically in the West, yes, at least for the time being. Those same rights have never been extended to the citizens of the countries whose democratic governments were toppled or subverted by what we call the West. But hey, here in the imperial core we are quite comfortable. So this state of being must represent our ideals!
>Those same rights have never been extended to the citizens of the countries whose democratic governments were toppled or subverted by what we call the West.
Well yeah, isn't that precisely what's being criticised?
Also not all the evil in the world was created by the West.
Well yeah, isn't that precisely what's being criticised?
Also not all the evil in the world was created by the West.
That's very interesting. So you think generally the news of vast human rights abuse we see coming out of China are due to the West's psychological struggles (?), and not due to actual suffering caused by the Chinese government?
Do you have any Chinese heritage in your family? This reminds me of the perspective most of my half-Chinese friends had from back in college. They always felt as if it was their duty to defend China from the biased Western media, despite all the real world evidence painting a very clear and unbiased picture.
Do you have any Chinese heritage in your family? This reminds me of the perspective most of my half-Chinese friends had from back in college. They always felt as if it was their duty to defend China from the biased Western media, despite all the real world evidence painting a very clear and unbiased picture.
> So you think generally the news of vast human rights abuse we see coming out of China
I think that generally western news have a tendency to misrepresent countries that are culturally different.
E.g. as a Russian, reading western news about Russia makes me think that journalist play a broken telephone game, misrepresenting marginal stuff as some kind of insane norm, in a completely unnuanced way, without any context.
I wouldn't be surprised if the same was for China. Probably even worse, as verification is even less accessible.
Dramatic news get clicks and there is no accountability for spicing them up. I guess, in the age of AI-delivered clickbait media, the old saying "Don't believe everything you read in the papers" was never as true.
I think that generally western news have a tendency to misrepresent countries that are culturally different.
E.g. as a Russian, reading western news about Russia makes me think that journalist play a broken telephone game, misrepresenting marginal stuff as some kind of insane norm, in a completely unnuanced way, without any context.
I wouldn't be surprised if the same was for China. Probably even worse, as verification is even less accessible.
Dramatic news get clicks and there is no accountability for spicing them up. I guess, in the age of AI-delivered clickbait media, the old saying "Don't believe everything you read in the papers" was never as true.
I agree, this rhetoric is true for western news about India as well. The BBC for example known to be awful at times, actively misrepresenting and hiding facts to suit their narrative. I guess they have to cater to their population with colonial mentality which can't bear the fact that some ex-colonies are on track to surpass them in the Asian century.
Surpass in what exactly? Authoritarianism? Idiots spewing nonsense to collect their paychecks.
Your argument basically boils down to “you should trust propaganda from the authoritarian Chinese government because I trust the propaganda from the authoritarian Russian government.” It’s not very convincing.
> Your argument basically boils down to “you should trust propaganda from the authoritarian Chinese government because I trust the propaganda from the authoritarian Russian government.”
What? Why? How? Where does this extreme binary logic come from? When have I said that he should "trust propaganda from the authoritarian Chinese government"? When have I said that "I trust the propaganda from the authoritarian Russian government"?
You don't need any "propaganda" to leave the house and live a life. I have all the empirical evidence I need to competently state "well, that's not how it works IRL" when I see some weird journalism full of factual errors and false assumptions.
Why are you acting as there is no personal experience?
What? Why? How? Where does this extreme binary logic come from? When have I said that he should "trust propaganda from the authoritarian Chinese government"? When have I said that "I trust the propaganda from the authoritarian Russian government"?
You don't need any "propaganda" to leave the house and live a life. I have all the empirical evidence I need to competently state "well, that's not how it works IRL" when I see some weird journalism full of factual errors and false assumptions.
Why are you acting as there is no personal experience?
Because Russia doesn’t have a free press. So your “personal experience” is one filtered through what the Russian government allows to be printed.
I am 100% British. You misunderstand me. I am saying that if we truly have China's, or namely humanity's best interests at heart when we criticise China, then we could profoundly increase our effectiveness if we demonstrated even just a basic understanding of context. Namely that the West is defined by its colonialism, its power and influence comes from exploitation of more than half the world.
To give an example, if a government truly wants people to wear masks and socially isolate, then the prime minister (Boris Johnson of the UK in this case), should not throw private parties.
We can argue about whether what the West did was net good or bad, but I don't think we can argue about whether the effectiveness of one's words are diminished by acts that are contrary to those words.
To give an example, if a government truly wants people to wear masks and socially isolate, then the prime minister (Boris Johnson of the UK in this case), should not throw private parties.
We can argue about whether what the West did was net good or bad, but I don't think we can argue about whether the effectiveness of one's words are diminished by acts that are contrary to those words.
We can split hairs about Boris Johnson throwing private parties or Joe Biden not wearing a mask or something equally trivial, but at the end of the day, I know of only one major world power which is systematically rounding up its citizens and sending them to reeducation and sterilization camps. It frustrates me when people try to defend China in such roundabout ways when the proof is in the pudding. If anything, humanity would be better off if we were _more_ harsh on China, and willing to call out its grave, grave sins, rather than absurdly shifting the discussion to Western colonialism.
The CCP are quite literally ethnically cleansing their own citizens! And lying about it! Why is it even worth discussing the context of Western colonialism when there's a true and honest legal genocide being performed at the hands of the government? This argument is no different than saying that if we just understood the context of Germany's situation in the 1930s better, perhaps we wouldn't criticize the Nazi regime as strongly. There are some acts which transcend cultural context because of how barbaric they are, and in my opinion, what's happening with the Uighur peoples is beyond forgiveness.
The CCP are quite literally ethnically cleansing their own citizens! And lying about it! Why is it even worth discussing the context of Western colonialism when there's a true and honest legal genocide being performed at the hands of the government? This argument is no different than saying that if we just understood the context of Germany's situation in the 1930s better, perhaps we wouldn't criticize the Nazi regime as strongly. There are some acts which transcend cultural context because of how barbaric they are, and in my opinion, what's happening with the Uighur peoples is beyond forgiveness.
This is a misunderstanding of my viewpoint that I often get. I'm not defending China, and I'm not engaging in Whataboutism. Although I certainly understand how it seems like that. My point is that words are more effective when the speaker of those words lives by those words. Of course the metaphors of Boris Johnson's parties and Joe Biden's lack of mask wearing are trivial, it's just an example.
Yes, the CCP are quite literally ethnically cleansing their own citizens! But also yes, the entirety of the Americas and Australia are already ethnically cleansed. The West has set the precedent. We simply have no power to, as much as it's the ethically correct thing to do, admonish China.
Yes, the CCP are quite literally ethnically cleansing their own citizens! But also yes, the entirety of the Americas and Australia are already ethnically cleansed. The West has set the precedent. We simply have no power to, as much as it's the ethically correct thing to do, admonish China.
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What does criticism of authoritarian censorship today have to do with imperialism? Sounds just like an attempt to muddy the waters tbh
I believe the psychological process involved is the malignant form of projection[1]. To give a metaphor: when I know myself that I've not been productive enough at work (and I secretly berate myself for it), I mis-perceive perfectly normal gestures of encouragement as personal attacks.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
Neville Chamberlain had similar thoughts about Germany.
Perhaps when dictators start doing things like rounding up undesirables into camps and pushing ideological uniformity at the point of a gun the reasonable response is to condemn the behavior? It doesn't matter who's wearing the jackboots, it's despicable to appease, condone, or enable the ones stepping on the throats of human beings.
Perhaps when dictators start doing things like rounding up undesirables into camps and pushing ideological uniformity at the point of a gun the reasonable response is to condemn the behavior? It doesn't matter who's wearing the jackboots, it's despicable to appease, condone, or enable the ones stepping on the throats of human beings.
In Zygmunt Bauman's Modernity and the Holocaust[1] it is argued that the Holocaust was not merely a tragic aberration of the ideals of modern Western civilisation but rather a logical realisation of it. Hitler himself, in both Mein Kampf, and Zweites Buch, wrote of how he was inspired by British concentration camps in South Africa. Maybe I haven't studied history enough, but I simply do not understand how dismissing the terrors of WW2 as merely a German problem is not also appeasing, condoning and enabling the terrors of the British. The Holocaust lies at the feet of Europeans, not merely the Nazis.
The problem isn't about who did what, the problem is the idea that horrors can only possibly happen outside the borders of the nation to which I belong.
The problem isn't about who did what, the problem is the idea that horrors can only possibly happen outside the borders of the nation to which I belong.
> The Holocaust lies at the feet of Europeans, not merely the Nazis.
Why stop abstraction there? You should continue on with all humans, then all life... that would be logical; this isn't.
Why stop abstraction there? You should continue on with all humans, then all life... that would be logical; this isn't.
I'm British. I was specifically taught the gruesome details of the Holocaust in school. But I only learnt about the horrors of British colonialism much later in life, and through my own efforts. British genocides are conspicuous by their absence from both our education system and our political discourse.
I don't think this makes it truly an European issue...
In general history as it is taught is almost a total loss for how biased it is, meaning that since we dropped the ball on writing it down we are doomed to repeat it until we do. So far we have only been playing at historical account, because the truth undermines national borders. But this is a global issue.
In general history as it is taught is almost a total loss for how biased it is, meaning that since we dropped the ball on writing it down we are doomed to repeat it until we do. So far we have only been playing at historical account, because the truth undermines national borders. But this is a global issue.
Have you ever spent time in China? If you had, I suspect you wouldn’t be writing this comment.
Most people criticizing China and the CCP in those forums haven't spent time in China either. I suspect many wouldn't even be able to place China on a map.
I've been to China.
The series of high resolution pictures of me throughout the streets, hotels, places I was during my time there - these all appeared on the screens used by the guards as I was being scanned to leave the country.
So yes, I have been to China, I can place China on a map, and it is the most terrifying reincarnation of Nazi Germany - being defended by people who will say "we didn't know any better" after the concentration camps are freed.
The series of high resolution pictures of me throughout the streets, hotels, places I was during my time there - these all appeared on the screens used by the guards as I was being scanned to leave the country.
So yes, I have been to China, I can place China on a map, and it is the most terrifying reincarnation of Nazi Germany - being defended by people who will say "we didn't know any better" after the concentration camps are freed.
> So yes, I have been to China, I can place China on a map, and it is the most terrifying reincarnation of Nazi Germany - being defended by people who will say "we didn't know any better" after the concentration camps are freed.
Oh, good to know that. I didn't know prisoners could left Nazi Germany just like that, only getting a scan. I had a completely different idea of that regime.
Oh, good to know that. I didn't know prisoners could left Nazi Germany just like that, only getting a scan. I had a completely different idea of that regime.
> I didn't know prisoners could left Nazi Germany just like that, only getting a scan.
The prisoners in the Xinjiang labor camps sure can't leave. You're making a false comparison, intentionally or not.
The prisoners in the Xinjiang labor camps sure can't leave. You're making a false comparison, intentionally or not.
Prisoners in jail, in my country, or every other country you can imagine, can't leave either. It's called conviction. China invented a lot of things, but surely not this.
Precisely my point - you were making a false (in?)equivalence by trying to say that xinniethepooh's point was invalid because they were able to leave China while prisoners in Nazi Germany could not - while it's pretty clear that they weren't a prisoner in China, just a traveler.
I lived there for 18 months
It's curious that you say 'historically unprecedented imperial past' - imperialism typically has to do with having a ruler, and exerting diplomatic or military force to influence other nations.
Why do you say this is historically unprecedented? China has been imperialist since its beginning, and continues its imperialism with Hong Kong, South china sea, Taiwan, Tibet, Xinjiang, Myanmar ...
What 'historically unprecedented imperial past' are you referring to that isn't preceded by China's?
Why do you say this is historically unprecedented? China has been imperialist since its beginning, and continues its imperialism with Hong Kong, South china sea, Taiwan, Tibet, Xinjiang, Myanmar ...
What 'historically unprecedented imperial past' are you referring to that isn't preceded by China's?
Just one example: the entirety of the American continents are culturally European. Imagine if North America was North Chinese speaking Mandarin and South America was South Chinese speaking Cantonese. Not to mention the entire concept of a nation state is a European invention. That Europe drew the borders in Africa, the Middle East, India. Then there's Australia and New Zealand. It's unprecedented. Yes China have/are imperial to an extent, but it seems like apples and oranges to me.
BTW, not to dismiss the other countries from your list, but you should really understand the history of Hong Kong, specifically the Opium Wars. The British took it when the Chinese refused to continue buying their opium.
BTW, not to dismiss the other countries from your list, but you should really understand the history of Hong Kong, specifically the Opium Wars. The British took it when the Chinese refused to continue buying their opium.
> imperialism typically has to do with having a ruler
No, it doesn't, unless by “ruler” you mean the metropolitan state.
No, it doesn't, unless by “ruler” you mean the metropolitan state.
Not being OK with the myriad of human rights abuses the Chinese government commits - sometimes "silently" and sometimes very opening and outright proudly - is just because I struggle with my own regions history? What the actual fuck... I have to call your "theory" what it is: stupid and dangerous - and whataboutism on top.
To give a metaphor, I think it is perfectly reasonable to criticise my project lead when she criticises me for not meeting my targets but turns up hungover and spends the whole day on Facebook.
I am criticising her because I want her to be effective at her job. Not because I disagree with her about our team's laziness.
I am criticising her because I want her to be effective at her job. Not because I disagree with her about our team's laziness.
We are not equating missed targets with atrocity... A terrorist attack does not miss the target of benevolence. It is something that should never, ever happen but this planet is such a soul-crushing clusterfuck that it is like water under a bridge.
Human life has value. It's not effective value or an estimate of value. It is absolute.
Human life has value. It's not effective value or an estimate of value. It is absolute.
My metaphor is not to pointing to project management as an analogy, it's pointing to how criticism of one side does not automatically mean support for the other side. Unless I've misunderstood your point?
I'm suggesting that we do comparison with things conductive to the act of comparison. With the atrocities we are discussing there is nothing to be gained from comparison because things are already maximum bad: The numbers just vary. Comparison can take away the weight of that, which in our fuzzy wetware translates to dissipating motivating energy that could have gone into action.
I do agree with your point and I am not a believer in the law of the excluded middle.
I do agree with your point and I am not a believer in the law of the excluded middle.
And I criticize the Chinese government because I want the Chinese people to live a life that is free and void of the constant danger of abuse (while at the same time I can as well recognize that we in the West have a big list of problems and abuses we have to tackle).
unprecedented? The PRC is still pursuing Imperial Qing claims to this day.
> Not because I'm being paid by the CCP
But you _are_ being paid by the CCP?
But you _are_ being paid by the CCP?
Doxxing myself, check my comment history and website https://tombh.co.uk
I would humbly suggest that you don't post personal information just because someone on the internet is making a comment in extremely poor form - you don't have anything to prove to them. Flag their comment (it's a pretty egregious violation of the HN guidelines) and attend to the people who are making good points.
HN may be one of the best places for discussion on the internet, with some of the best moderators, but even here, you get people who aren't interested in having civil discussions.
HN may be one of the best places for discussion on the internet, with some of the best moderators, but even here, you get people who aren't interested in having civil discussions.
People have different opinions and are free to voice them. I’m not pro ccp (but here I feel the need to clarify up front), but it’s not hard to understand that some people view china more favorably than most in the US. At the very least it shouldn’t be hard to understand why some people would reject the more extreme anti china stance.
edit: long way of me saying, I don’t think anyone that defends china should automatically be labeled ccp propaganda.
edit: long way of me saying, I don’t think anyone that defends china should automatically be labeled ccp propaganda.
Can you provide some examples of this alleged "flood of pro CCP activists" in this comments section?
I'm reading some minor disagreements. Is this activism in your worldview?
I'm reading some minor disagreements. Is this activism in your worldview?
Not everyone who disagrees with you is an activist. It's possible for people to have different information than you or have different values than you.
I am European and not affiliated in any way with China. And don't want to whitewash them.
Still, there is a double standard regarding China vs the Western World. While China gets (IMHO deserved) criticism for their territorial claims and human right abuse, the Iraq War (over 400k deaths) was "business as usual".
The same goes with anti-pandemic restrictions - when it happens in China, it's an authoritarian rule. When in the West - it's social responsibility. When China started vaccinating children, I saw an article with "child soldiers" and a photo of a crying kid. The same action in the West had a picture of a smiling kid, and a more welcoming title.
Or even when it comes to pollution and worker's rights, the West is hypocritical. Blames China, while happily outsources most heavy industry there, due to lower costs. (When was the last time you bought some electronics and there were not "Manufactured in PRL"?)
Still, there is a double standard regarding China vs the Western World. While China gets (IMHO deserved) criticism for their territorial claims and human right abuse, the Iraq War (over 400k deaths) was "business as usual".
The same goes with anti-pandemic restrictions - when it happens in China, it's an authoritarian rule. When in the West - it's social responsibility. When China started vaccinating children, I saw an article with "child soldiers" and a photo of a crying kid. The same action in the West had a picture of a smiling kid, and a more welcoming title.
Or even when it comes to pollution and worker's rights, the West is hypocritical. Blames China, while happily outsources most heavy industry there, due to lower costs. (When was the last time you bought some electronics and there were not "Manufactured in PRL"?)
We're not discussing the US, we're discussing the latest abuse of power by the CCP. That's where the link goes. Would you like to next make a false equivalence of US prison labor to slave labor in China? Because that's where this goes, every thread.
Submit a link of the US' latest atrocity to HN. A world of tolerance allows and accepts the stories of violence perpetrated by all actors. The reason you are seeing so many related to China is we have some new flagrant human rights abuse happening from the CCP every week, sometimes multiple times a week, that's why you see so many of these stories percolate to the top. Just two days ago, the CCP tore down the statue commemorating the Tiananmen Square massacre in Hong Kong. [1]
This is the screaming of the machine doing its work of control, every day of every week. The memories of them will be inhaled whole and exhaled as dust, a phantom of a thing that never truly existed.
[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59764029
Submit a link of the US' latest atrocity to HN. A world of tolerance allows and accepts the stories of violence perpetrated by all actors. The reason you are seeing so many related to China is we have some new flagrant human rights abuse happening from the CCP every week, sometimes multiple times a week, that's why you see so many of these stories percolate to the top. Just two days ago, the CCP tore down the statue commemorating the Tiananmen Square massacre in Hong Kong. [1]
This is the screaming of the machine doing its work of control, every day of every week. The memories of them will be inhaled whole and exhaled as dust, a phantom of a thing that never truly existed.
[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59764029
The commenter you replied to seemed to be comparing 2 situations. That seems normal to me. Comparing things seems to be great way to understand complex issues.
What makes the comment a wrong way to discuss? Is it a bad form of comparison for some reason?
What makes the comment a wrong way to discuss? Is it a bad form of comparison for some reason?
Providing common knowledge on the topic rehashes things everybody knows so it is seen as noise and not signal.
If you have uncovered stuff few people know, please share. Then finding comparisons is more insightful.
If you have uncovered stuff few people know, please share. Then finding comparisons is more insightful.
Not really. The Iraq war was horrible and unnecessary and I doubt you’ll find too many people here who’ll say otherwise.
But it was the past and it’s settled. China is happening now.
But it was the past and it’s settled. China is happening now.
Aren't Guantanamo Bay and other torture camps (black sites as they are known now) still open?
They are, and it’s horrible.
But they key difference is that you won’t really see anyone downplaying them or outright denying their existence.
But they key difference is that you won’t really see anyone downplaying them or outright denying their existence.
To me the key difference is in the way the propaganda is done.
Pro-CCP people are posting comments on the Internet to try to convince western people.
Pro-Russia people are paying celebrities of western countries to promote their culture, they are also creating news networks in the west to do the same.
USA is using the global western culture (Hollywood, singers...) to promote their agenda.
Since we're talking about torture, in the last two decades, the USA produced dozen of films or TV shows where torture is depicted as a necessary evil for the good guy to win over the bad guys. Just look at Jack Bauer. They don't need to go an Twitter saying "no, that's not what happens, we're the good guys, see...", because in the mind of (almost) everyone, it's already accepted, since they saw a good guy doing it in a movie.
The propaganda machine from CCP is just not as evolved as the USA's, they are trying to catch up. But all in all, it's a same. It's just more obvious for the CCP guys because they haven't the right tools yet. But given how they are investing in cultural services, I'm sure they will soon be better at it and we won't have those kind of discussion anymore. It will not be "propaganda", but just people arguing against each other on topics on which their favorite state has different opinion.
Pro-CCP people are posting comments on the Internet to try to convince western people.
Pro-Russia people are paying celebrities of western countries to promote their culture, they are also creating news networks in the west to do the same.
USA is using the global western culture (Hollywood, singers...) to promote their agenda.
Since we're talking about torture, in the last two decades, the USA produced dozen of films or TV shows where torture is depicted as a necessary evil for the good guy to win over the bad guys. Just look at Jack Bauer. They don't need to go an Twitter saying "no, that's not what happens, we're the good guys, see...", because in the mind of (almost) everyone, it's already accepted, since they saw a good guy doing it in a movie.
The propaganda machine from CCP is just not as evolved as the USA's, they are trying to catch up. But all in all, it's a same. It's just more obvious for the CCP guys because they haven't the right tools yet. But given how they are investing in cultural services, I'm sure they will soon be better at it and we won't have those kind of discussion anymore. It will not be "propaganda", but just people arguing against each other on topics on which their favorite state has different opinion.
freeflight(1)
That’s whataboutism. Most liberal democracies didn’t invade anyone recently and have free press and a history of little recent human rights abuse.
It’s possible to criticize China on its own merits without somehow excusing anyone else.
I’d happily pay more for goods from manufacturers saying they avoid China. Hopefully this will be easier and cheaper in coming years.
It’s possible to criticize China on its own merits without somehow excusing anyone else.
I’d happily pay more for goods from manufacturers saying they avoid China. Hopefully this will be easier and cheaper in coming years.
On hn, we should try to engage with peoples ideas, and be careful about attributing motives and dismissing people.
That said, I’ve seen a lot of pro ccp posts in the last few months. If we hypothetically say there are state manipulators on hn becoming active, what is the most mature way to respond to the situation?
That said, I’ve seen a lot of pro ccp posts in the last few months. If we hypothetically say there are state manipulators on hn becoming active, what is the most mature way to respond to the situation?
The most mature way would be to debate their claims with logic, data, sources, etc.
...and, if you suspect that there's actual manipulation going on (as there are a lot of Chinese nationals, real people, who earnestly believe in the points that they're making, on HN), then email [email protected] and they'll use their admin powers to take a look at it.
Really? As somebody constantly accused of being a Chinese bot for not agreeing that the Chinese government is a manifestation of absolute evil that the world needs to destroy in order to save, these threads all seem to be filled with anti-Chinese hypernationalists.
Standard practice anywhere you have Chinese people, most are perfectly reasonable but many are deeply indoctrinated nationalists.
Unfortunately the rest aren’t willing or able to do anything about the genocide cheerleader squad.
Unfortunately the rest aren’t willing or able to do anything about the genocide cheerleader squad.
The communist party party has successfully managed to associate love of China with loyalty to the party and government, and criticism of the party with being “anti-Chinese”. So being pro-democracy in Hong Kong is being anti-China, and opposing the ethnic and cultural suppression in Xinjiang is China hating.
My wife is Chinese and we have a Chinese friend here in the UK we have to be careful what we say to. She gets upset if anything critical of the Chinese government comes up, because she “loves China”. We love China too, just not the communist party.
My wife is Chinese and we have a Chinese friend here in the UK we have to be careful what we say to. She gets upset if anything critical of the Chinese government comes up, because she “loves China”. We love China too, just not the communist party.
> We love China too, just not the communist party.
I lived in singapore for 10 years until recently moving to Taiwan, this is basically the view of everyone from China I met. “I love China but I hate the government, that’s why I left”
It’s a shame because the actions of the CCP are making people blame Chinese people. But the majority of people from China that I’ve met are awesome.
I lived in singapore for 10 years until recently moving to Taiwan, this is basically the view of everyone from China I met. “I love China but I hate the government, that’s why I left”
It’s a shame because the actions of the CCP are making people blame Chinese people. But the majority of people from China that I’ve met are awesome.
Well yeah, you're self selecting for people who
a. Left China b. Are talking to a foreigner about politics
CCP maintains considerable support among the mainland population.
a. Left China b. Are talking to a foreigner about politics
CCP maintains considerable support among the mainland population.
> a. Left China b. Are talking to a foreigner about politics
This is a weird form of racism I see from a lot of people coming from a Chinese perspective, and it's very arrogant and abrasive.
When a Chinese person is outside of China, they are the foreigner. Walking around the U.S. and calling people laowai is really a... questionable choice.
This is a weird form of racism I see from a lot of people coming from a Chinese perspective, and it's very arrogant and abrasive.
When a Chinese person is outside of China, they are the foreigner. Walking around the U.S. and calling people laowai is really a... questionable choice.
It’s more of a lost in translation - we use _laowai_ as a convenient word. When I just came to US, I sometimes still “translate” what I want to express from Chinese first, so I even called the other fellow US students “foreigner” once when talking about a cultural difference. “Foreigners tends to do XXX while we(Chinese) do YYY”
He laughed and thought it was funny
He laughed and thought it was funny
It’s simply writing about Chinese attitudes and experiences when abroad, and therefore using phrasing from the point of view of the person in question.
Thank you.
Well we don’t know what the support is truly like inside China. But I think it’s safe to assume that there are a lot of people inside china who unfortunately do not have the luxury of being able to move their family overseas.
Some in the mainland population are smart enough not to give their real opinions. It’s not safe unless you no longer live in China (and even then, it’s not safe, as the government can retaliate against the person’s family).
I don’t doubt that the CCP maintains considerable support, but considering they control the media, that’s less impressive than you think it is.
I don’t doubt that the CCP maintains considerable support, but considering they control the media, that’s less impressive than you think it is.
>CCP maintains considerable support among the mainland population
How much of that is genuine support vs saying the party line to avoid persecution?
How much of that is genuine support vs saying the party line to avoid persecution?
Standard practice anywhere you have... people, most are perfectly reasonable but many are deeply indoctrinated nationalists.
Just a cursory reading of the comments in any topic about China will show you that their western counterparts are alive and kicking here
Just a cursory reading of the comments in any topic about China will show you that their western counterparts are alive and kicking here
Bullshit.
Shit like this is almost exclusively a Chinese activity https://www.propublica.org/article/purdue-president-condemns...
You can find countless examples of groups of Chinese people engaging in downright horrible behavior like this, good luck finding many western counterparts.
Where are the western nationalists SWATting families of people who dare to say critical things of their governments?
Nobody will send the secret police to harass my family if I dare to criticize my government, but if I was Chinese they certainly would.
I’m sure it would be possible to indoctrinate westerners to behave in a similar way, but the fact remains that currently it’s the Chinese who are uniquely indoctrinated.
Shit like this is almost exclusively a Chinese activity https://www.propublica.org/article/purdue-president-condemns...
You can find countless examples of groups of Chinese people engaging in downright horrible behavior like this, good luck finding many western counterparts.
Where are the western nationalists SWATting families of people who dare to say critical things of their governments?
Nobody will send the secret police to harass my family if I dare to criticize my government, but if I was Chinese they certainly would.
I’m sure it would be possible to indoctrinate westerners to behave in a similar way, but the fact remains that currently it’s the Chinese who are uniquely indoctrinated.
I dont know if you are being naive or a troll. In any case, for the benefit of other people reading this thread:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
https://theintercept.com/2014/09/25/managing-nightmare-cia-m...
https://theintercept.com/2019/10/22/terrorism-fbi-political-...
https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2016/11/5/13533838/history-...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
https://theintercept.com/2014/09/25/managing-nightmare-cia-m...
https://theintercept.com/2019/10/22/terrorism-fbi-political-...
https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2016/11/5/13533838/history-...
This is bad. But the fact that you can post links to articles written by journalists here is proof enough that this was not okay and unacceptable.
Do you have articles about similar things happening in China by Chinese media?
Do you have articles about similar things happening in China by Chinese media?
The first article is from Wikipedia so you are being highly disingenuous. The second thing is that it is pretty much okay and acceptable since this has never stopped. You seem to believe that if the US does something wrong and it is reported then everything is fine in the world, well, no. This guy went to jail for revealing that the drone attacks were ineffective and amounted to criminal actions:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/27/former-intelli...
I can read about it, that does not make it even 0.0001% better.
Since you asked:
https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-tech/article/3160705/year-chin...
The problem with most westerners is that they just simply dont understand China. Just read this, relax, it is from Harvard, not from Xi's wumao army
https://hbr.org/2021/05/what-the-west-gets-wrong-about-china
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/27/former-intelli...
I can read about it, that does not make it even 0.0001% better.
Since you asked:
https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-tech/article/3160705/year-chin...
The problem with most westerners is that they just simply dont understand China. Just read this, relax, it is from Harvard, not from Xi's wumao army
https://hbr.org/2021/05/what-the-west-gets-wrong-about-china
The fact that you had to link to COINTELPRO is pretty revealing :)
Grasping at straws, no?
Grasping at straws, no?
Tell that to all the people that got their lives ruined. How is the pay rate going on here?: https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/441480-ins...
I only get paid 50 cents by the yellow menace and I am not a rapper.
I only get paid 50 cents by the yellow menace and I am not a rapper.
You'll find the same with any article critical of China.
The party is paying people (quite well) to defend China online. It's another kind of misinformation campaign.
The party is paying people (quite well) to defend China online. It's another kind of misinformation campaign.
There are definitely signs of them here. I have another thread that had someone trying to steer my comment into a East vs West argument just for mentioning China. It seems like they are trying to pick fights out of nowhere as if they are getting paid. And if you notice, they come at certain hours like there is suddenly a wave of them all at once.
"It seems like they are trying to pick fights out of nowhere as if..."
...that is what people generally do on the internet, when they disagree.
...that is what people generally do on the internet, when they disagree.
Yes and no. When you disagree you usually have a point to make, but when you purposefully try to steer a conversation into a confrontational topic, then it does become suspect.
You can also check the comment history of these people to see if they are outright government trolls or brainwashed university students. Sometimes it is pretty clear.
It's not always brainwashing and indoctrination, it can also be the threat to family social standing, political scrutiny, and the ability to travel freely. If they have family or close friends that already have trouble with the state, China makes exquisite use of those factors in controlling people.
Can you point me where to sign up to get paid to defend China online?
Here's a starting point: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/12/20/technology/ch...
I checked, and you don't have sufficient social score.
I guess you mean my credit score/background check. We don't have a social score in the UK. Though I wouldn't be surprised it if something akin was secretly compiled by GCHQ et al.
Always interesting to see what kind of mindblowing absurdities they come up with to defend the horrendous acts against the Uighur people. I also see it in German comment sections at this point.
"we've always been at war with eastasia"
The major problem I see, is that every major power uses propaganda to their benefit, yet even highly intelligent people often don't see the propaganda of their native (or chosen) home.
I see the propaganda of China, Russia as well as the one of the US and Europe.
There are no white, selfless knights around. There never were.
Does that mean that nothing matters, that (subjective) morale suddenly is meaningless?
Of course it doesn't!
But it puts "them vs us" into perspective.
Humans are humans and act like humans all around the world.
The major problem I see, is that every major power uses propaganda to their benefit, yet even highly intelligent people often don't see the propaganda of their native (or chosen) home.
I see the propaganda of China, Russia as well as the one of the US and Europe.
There are no white, selfless knights around. There never were.
Does that mean that nothing matters, that (subjective) morale suddenly is meaningless?
Of course it doesn't!
But it puts "them vs us" into perspective.
Humans are humans and act like humans all around the world.
That is one big false équivalence. The mistreatment of minorities by the CCP is not the same thing as the mistreatment of minorities by the USA. Or did I miss the news about the black lives matter forced sterilisations?
You missed the part where the USA killed off most of the native population of its western side and drove them off their lands, yes. Different times, but maybe that's just the thing to do to get to superpower status and China's just catching up.
No one missed this because Americans are educated in these atrocities from their early years in school.
On the other hand, such a record of atrocities committed by the CCP is not taught in Chinese schools. The Hundred Flowers Campaign, the reconstitution of Tibet and the sending of its natives to work camps by the half million have been erased from the record.
On the other hand, such a record of atrocities committed by the CCP is not taught in Chinese schools. The Hundred Flowers Campaign, the reconstitution of Tibet and the sending of its natives to work camps by the half million have been erased from the record.
Will there be reparations or is the US going to keep the lands? Is it OK if the Chinese do it now and teach their schoolchildren about it 100 years later?
Looking from the outside this just looks like pulling up the ladder. "Oh we did kill them off but that was years ago. These other countries, though..."
Looking from the outside this just looks like pulling up the ladder. "Oh we did kill them off but that was years ago. These other countries, though..."
I don't know what you expect to be done that hasn't been done already. Navajo Nation exists and it's 17,544,500 acres of land for the Navajo people. Native Americans qualify for college benefits that others with citizenship to the States do not qualify for. Compounding the dilemma of how a nation makes reparations for the sins of their mother's mother's mother's there just aren't many Native peoples left to make reparations to.
Your argument, at face value, offers little in the way of solutions. On the contrary, you make an enemy of my argument. Do you seek to apologize for the new makers of genocide today? Or what is the purpose of your comment?
Much as the Buddha focused on present action as a tool for change, that is what we must do now, collectively, so we do not repeat the atrocities of yesterday today.
Your argument, at face value, offers little in the way of solutions. On the contrary, you make an enemy of my argument. Do you seek to apologize for the new makers of genocide today? Or what is the purpose of your comment?
Much as the Buddha focused on present action as a tool for change, that is what we must do now, collectively, so we do not repeat the atrocities of yesterday today.
The US gave land and money to tribes. They held fair trials and often lost. Just recently half of Oklahoma became tribal land because of a lawsuit.
For others as interested in this ruling as I was here is a link to a story that covers this verdict [1]
[1] https://www.npr.org/2020/07/09/889562040/supreme-court-rules...
[1] https://www.npr.org/2020/07/09/889562040/supreme-court-rules...
How old is China? How big is China? Was it always that big? Everybody just come together in a big kumbaya circle one day?
> sending of its natives to work camps by the half million
Never heard of this event. Mind to provide a link with more details?
Never heard of this event. Mind to provide a link with more details?
I should have put the link in my original comment, thank you for asking. It's at [1].
[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-54260732
[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-54260732
Thanks, this is what the major part of the report.
> The report, authored by Adrian Zenz, an independent Tibet and Xinjiang researcher, says that 500,000 people, mostly subsistence farmers and herders, were trained in the first seven months of 2020 and authorities have set quotas for the mass transfer of those workers within Tibet and to other parts of China.
One thing I hate about mainstream media reporting is that they never link to the source material.
Just from the above description, I cannot see that these people are forced in anyway. And deriving such numbers from public Chinese government documents is not accurate either, as certain words can be easily misunderstood given the sinophobia sentiment nowadays.
> The report, authored by Adrian Zenz, an independent Tibet and Xinjiang researcher, says that 500,000 people, mostly subsistence farmers and herders, were trained in the first seven months of 2020 and authorities have set quotas for the mass transfer of those workers within Tibet and to other parts of China.
One thing I hate about mainstream media reporting is that they never link to the source material.
Just from the above description, I cannot see that these people are forced in anyway. And deriving such numbers from public Chinese government documents is not accurate either, as certain words can be easily misunderstood given the sinophobia sentiment nowadays.
The expansion of Chinese civilization in the south was also not entirely peaceful. It followed patterns of settlers occupying fertile lands and forcing indigeneous people to retreat to less fertile ones and to mountain ranges. The suppressions of the Miao/Hmong rebellions during Ming and Qing dynasty was quite brutal.
The spread of civilization and the establishment of the modern nation states was rarely peaceful, neither in the West, nor in the East, and in many cases required cultural assimilation. It is disingeneous to pretend it was otherwise.
The spread of civilization and the establishment of the modern nation states was rarely peaceful, neither in the West, nor in the East, and in many cases required cultural assimilation. It is disingeneous to pretend it was otherwise.
If you're referring to Xinjiang, China's ahead of the USA, not behind it. China emptied out Xinjiang in the eighteenth century; the people there today are not indigenous.
Of course, the government at the time was not Chinese, and the Emperor pursued this course over the objections of his Chinese advisors...
Of course, the government at the time was not Chinese, and the Emperor pursued this course over the objections of his Chinese advisors...
You missed the part where you can openly discuss that in the US.
You even have politicians like Elizabeth Warren overblowing their native ancestry to gain an advantage.
You even have politicians like Elizabeth Warren overblowing their native ancestry to gain an advantage.
This happened 150+ years ago. Tianeman square was 1989, the "Great Leap Forward" with its 15-55M estimated dead was in 1960. And to this day China denies these things happened, purges the Internet of any records, and punishes/arrests anyone in China who mentions them. I'm not even going into the persecution of the Uyghur Muslims in China, their forced detention and "indoctrination" camps... which again China denies, covers up etc.
Western Europe and the US, while they have done some shit in the past, can't really be compared. At least in these countries, people are allowed to discuss these things, protest, vote out politicians whose views they disagree with. China meanwhile, is cracking down on free speech and democracy in Hong Kong.
Western Europe and the US, while they have done some shit in the past, can't really be compared. At least in these countries, people are allowed to discuss these things, protest, vote out politicians whose views they disagree with. China meanwhile, is cracking down on free speech and democracy in Hong Kong.
Nah, its just getting less publicity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzungar_genocide
Nah. Qing technically is Manchu. Qing racist to the Hans too. The main race in China. CCP actually has less racist ideology compare to others previous ruler in China. China is very complex country.
There is no such thing as unbiased news. But here in the west I can (legally) read Chinese state news and get the other side of the story. The other way around is not possible.
Well it's the first page from 'Politics for Dummies': find an enemy and blame it for everything. If there's no enemy,create one or even imagine one.
And if you already have an enemy and they’re doing horrible things, don’t look the gift horse in the mouth, tell people about it.
Comparing China’s bad behavior to the bad behavior of the West is a false equivalence on every aspect. It is clear that the West also has (or had) bad behavior, but bringing it up is a form of whataboutism to distract from the much worse behavior happening right now in China.
Comparing China’s bad behavior to the bad behavior of the West is a false equivalence on every aspect. It is clear that the West also has (or had) bad behavior, but bringing it up is a form of whataboutism to distract from the much worse behavior happening right now in China.
No it is not.
All this whataboutism talk is besides the point.
I am not saying what China is doing is right, I am saying that others are equally worse and we should deal with that TOO.
And yes, the US invading foreign soil is equally bad.
All this whataboutism talk is besides the point.
I am not saying what China is doing is right, I am saying that others are equally worse and we should deal with that TOO.
And yes, the US invading foreign soil is equally bad.
> I see the propaganda of China, Russia as well as the one of the US and Europe.
This is a huge false equivalence.
You won't see Chinese citizens publicly in favor of US/Europe but you will damn well see it the other way around.
E.g., some of my coworkers genuinely think it is ok for China to ban Western companies in the name of harmony but the US introducing the slightest of regulations is seen as fascism.
A discussion like this can't happen inside China on a popular platform.
This is a huge false equivalence.
You won't see Chinese citizens publicly in favor of US/Europe but you will damn well see it the other way around.
E.g., some of my coworkers genuinely think it is ok for China to ban Western companies in the name of harmony but the US introducing the slightest of regulations is seen as fascism.
A discussion like this can't happen inside China on a popular platform.
I though US maintains list of black listed companies
You really think the cases are equivalent?
TikTok is allowed unabated in the US. Twitter is blocked in China.
This sort of false equivalency discussion is getting really annoying. Even Hacker News is partly blocked in China.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20600787
If the US follows China's policies symmetrically, a ton more companies would be blacklisted.
TikTok is allowed unabated in the US. Twitter is blocked in China.
This sort of false equivalency discussion is getting really annoying. Even Hacker News is partly blocked in China.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20600787
If the US follows China's policies symmetrically, a ton more companies would be blacklisted.
Of course I see Western propaganda, but at least Western propaganda pretends to benefit me.
So I would rather pretend to believe in Western progaganda than Chinese propaganda.
„Humans are humans“ is dangerously naive in a world full of thug nations.
So I would rather pretend to believe in Western progaganda than Chinese propaganda.
„Humans are humans“ is dangerously naive in a world full of thug nations.
What will happen to Chinese games on Steam? I will be profoundly sad if they disappear. For example: Dyson Sphere Program is one of my favorite games of all time. If that's gone, I'm going to have a hard time not making the CCP my mortal enemy
> If that's gone, I'm going to have a hard time not making the CCP my mortal enemy
Wouldn't be a bad choice, regardless of what happens with Steam.
Wouldn't be a bad choice, regardless of what happens with Steam.
The Chinese government != the Chinese people. Whenever geopolitics separates artists from their audiences, it’s just sad. It’s in a similar vein of when total war is waged; the governments talk a big game but it’s the common, every day people who suffer.
If you have an axe to grind be advised to make sure it’s targeted at the right people.
If you have an axe to grind be advised to make sure it’s targeted at the right people.
> The Chinese government != the Chinese people
Are they controlled by aliens from the space? The government people come from the people, it’s same culture/mentality.
You can make whole CCP government disappear and new wave of similar people will replace them setting same rules.
Are they controlled by aliens from the space? The government people come from the people, it’s same culture/mentality.
You can make whole CCP government disappear and new wave of similar people will replace them setting same rules.
When did I attack the people themselves? It's the Party I said should be stood up against.
On second read that’s fair. As long as we separate the people from the government/party!
> > If that's gone, I'm going to have a hard time not making the CCP my mortal enemy
> Wouldn't be a bad choice, regardless of what happens with Steam.
I can't tell if this is an ideological thing or not. There's a lot of states out there to vehemently dislike. But it's always this creepy strain of cold war torch-bearing that is so many people's pet cause. For the record, I think almost all states are on the exact same level of hateable, as a concept.
> Wouldn't be a bad choice, regardless of what happens with Steam.
I can't tell if this is an ideological thing or not. There's a lot of states out there to vehemently dislike. But it's always this creepy strain of cold war torch-bearing that is so many people's pet cause. For the record, I think almost all states are on the exact same level of hateable, as a concept.
That's wrong. Saying that two things are the same doesn't make them the same. So a comment like yours is either totally naive, or paid for by China.
Chinese games are free to be published outside of China. It is about the control of what's available inside the country.
(Wow thanks for that gem, looks amazing I just bought it in case it goes away.)
Dyson Sphere Program is in my library backlog… I guess I need to bump it up to the top position!
I appreciate that like something created by a group of people. It’s a great relationship between creators and audiences. That’s awesome and I hope you aren’t cut off from this group for arbitrary reasons like geopolitics.
It might not actually be banned; there are reports on Twitter and Reddit saying it's just a DNS cache poisoning attack similar to one a few years ago. No one's posting good verifiable info though so I don't really know. Steam definitely seems to be inaccessible in China right now, but why and whether it's intentional is not yet clear.
But a ban can be expected, as Chinese government enforces a system that allows only pre-approved games to be available to the country citizens. Chinese gaming companies too had been hit with bans.
This correlates with some of the other reports I’ve read and I appreciate your skepticism. A “ban” is certainly not outside the realm of possibilities in China, especially given some of the new social policies, but we cannot afford to react like this whenever the word “China” makes its way into a headline if we want to draw attention to the real “bad” things.
https://twitter.com/Stutsies/status/1474748979326111751?s=20
Looks like it's a DNS attack, not a ban.
Looks like it's a DNS attack, not a ban.
"Steam has been banned in China" reads differently than the article's original title: "Steam Has Reportedly Been Banned In China".
FFS, get it right the first time. Initial impressions went from:
* "Oh really? Not likely but okay..", clicks thread
* Fast-reads comments top to bottom "fuck, what is this.."
* Reads actual article, "God damnit."
FFS, get it right the first time. Initial impressions went from:
* "Oh really? Not likely but okay..", clicks thread
* Fast-reads comments top to bottom "fuck, what is this.."
* Reads actual article, "God damnit."
Wouldn't be surprised if tencent and others are going to launch their own app store. Tencent already partially did with the epic game store. Pull some string in China to block steams global edition to even out the fight for epic game store. Tencent owns like 40~48% of epic.
I didn't know until now that Tencent owned such a large stake in Epic. Makes me wonder a little about the disputes with Google & Apple.
Whilst Epic seems to be fighting the good fight, I've thought it was very odd that they were putting so much on the line in their Google & Apple battles. Now I have to wonder if Tencent endorsed those legal battles with some more ambitious goal in mind.
Whilst Epic seems to be fighting the good fight, I've thought it was very odd that they were putting so much on the line in their Google & Apple battles. Now I have to wonder if Tencent endorsed those legal battles with some more ambitious goal in mind.
Behind every big battle or war there is always a motivation to gain market access. This was true for ww1 and ww2 and I wouldn't be surprised it is true in these legal battles.
Wouldnt be surprised that tencent actually was the key player that pushed epic to open source their unreal engine so that the US can't block the unreal engine code base from being exported to China.
Wouldnt be surprised that tencent actually was the key player that pushed epic to open source their unreal engine so that the US can't block the unreal engine code base from being exported to China.
Doubtful, Xi Jing Ping is hellbent on destroying the Chinese tech industry right now
In what way has the Chinese government destroyed Chinese tech. The big tech companies are still there just more regulated. They are also still innovating.
The Chinese government does actually know the difference between real productive forces and the stock market. It would be really weird for a socialist government to not know the theoretic works of Marx, lenin and stalin.
The Chinese government does actually know the difference between real productive forces and the stock market. It would be really weird for a socialist government to not know the theoretic works of Marx, lenin and stalin.
As a Chinese who moved to U.S. couple years ago... I will never move back to China if there's no sign of democratization.
Xi Jinping has turned China into a nightmare dictatorship. Ethically, why do any companies want to do business there?
Every business that goes into China gets it's IP stolen, it's new business entities stolen, etc. Why would anyone want to do business there period?
I do no business with anyone or any company in China with my company.
Every business that goes into China gets it's IP stolen, it's new business entities stolen, etc. Why would anyone want to do business there period?
I do no business with anyone or any company in China with my company.
> Xi Jinping has turned China into a nightmare dictatorship.
That...seems to be giving him too much credit. Not saying that China under Xi isn't a nightmare dictatorship, just that if it is, he either didn't make it that way or didn't have far to go to get there.
> Every business that goes into China gets it's IP stolen, it's new business entities stolen, etc.
That description has been being made of China longer than Xi has been in power, probably from a few days after the initial euphoria of Communist China opening up to Western business wore off.
That...seems to be giving him too much credit. Not saying that China under Xi isn't a nightmare dictatorship, just that if it is, he either didn't make it that way or didn't have far to go to get there.
> Every business that goes into China gets it's IP stolen, it's new business entities stolen, etc.
That description has been being made of China longer than Xi has been in power, probably from a few days after the initial euphoria of Communist China opening up to Western business wore off.
China liberalized a bit under Hu, with the pullbacks liberties only beginning after the 2008 olympics. Xi…as a child of the cultural revolution who seems to have nostalgic feelings for it for some reason, was a huge step back. He is also china’s first leader who is monolingual and skipped most of his college education (having a degree handed to him after the cultural revolution ended). It’s weird.
People forget china’s rollercoaster with liberalization in recent history, with China opening up dramatically in the late 80s before a huge pullback due to Tiananmen Square, there was also a movement in the late 70s that gained a lot of traction before being quashed. The pullback after the 2008 olympics has just lasted longer than the previous ones.
People forget china’s rollercoaster with liberalization in recent history, with China opening up dramatically in the late 80s before a huge pullback due to Tiananmen Square, there was also a movement in the late 70s that gained a lot of traction before being quashed. The pullback after the 2008 olympics has just lasted longer than the previous ones.
I honestly (no flamewar intended) wonder if the people of China (the majority of its regular citizens) suddenly decided that they're actually not happy with where the country is going, could they successfully make a change in government? Or is the power grip (+ available technology) of the powers that be (Xi and co) already too strong as to make that impossible, i.e. beyond the point of no return?
I am asking because, putting China aside, other countries seem to be headed in a similar direction if are not outright copying what China's been doing during the last years.
I am asking because, putting China aside, other countries seem to be headed in a similar direction if are not outright copying what China's been doing during the last years.
Thankfully, Taiwanese game franchises like "Sword & Fairy" are still available. It's deeply irritating that Emperor Xi is now butting his interfering nose into gaming entertainment.
Sent the link to my son who is an avid gamer.
Got an one-word response:
"Winnienet".
Could not phrase it better.
Got an one-word response:
"Winnienet".
Could not phrase it better.
China does this, then gets their panties in a bunch when the US bans goods made with slave labor.
> anti-Chinese, including the presence of "effeminate men"
How can effeminate men be anti-chinese?
How can effeminate men be anti-chinese?
Because it is preventing Chinese citizens from exercising their human rights to choose the way they want to live their lives rather than some made up masculine "uberm-man" of the CCP.
Banning google, banning, crypto, banning Steam, so much for progress.
eh, crypto might have been the right choice tho
Decentralized web advancements will continue to punch holes.
You don't need web3 to punch holes in The Great Firewall of China. I've got a tech illiterate acquaintance living there right now and they regularly finds ways around it.
That explains why China decided to propagandize the whole internet.
Pretty much. Seen /r/worldnews recently?
In my eyes, the attack on 'effeminate men' is the nail in the coffin for the government of China. They are as dead to me and my actions will reflect it. Down with Emperor Pooh!
Please do not take HN threads into flamewar like this. We ban accounts that do that, for what should be obvious reasons if you review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
You can make your substantive points thoughtfully, so please do that instead.
You can make your substantive points thoughtfully, so please do that instead.
It's less than 'final nail', but rather sign that government has no better topics, than crude mix of chauvinism an and emotional manipulation. Cf. Russian progression from 'ignore politics, look at economic growth' -> 'ignore politics for economical stability sake' -> 'ignore politics or homos will diddle your kids'
You know the end is near when ideas of proper morality flow from a government to its citizens, rather than the reverse.
> You know the end is near when ideas of proper morality flow from a government to its citizens, rather than the reverse.
You have no idea how many of social liberties you take for granted were strongarmed by governments/judiciary. Also how many liberties were taken from you by majority of citizens. So be careful what you wish for.
You have no idea how many of social liberties you take for granted were strongarmed by governments/judiciary. Also how many liberties were taken from you by majority of citizens. So be careful what you wish for.
[flagged]
It is amusing. They could have gone on filling the oceans with plastic and using banned CFCs and gamifying life on Earth through Social Credit all while enjoying near total deference from the prevailing virtuegeist of the West. But instead they chose to mess with LGBTQ and all of the sudden they're evil incarnate.
This is easy to understand. All the things you mention are issues that affect everybody. A better understanding of what it means to be man affects a very small percentage, so when when a govt looks past everything it should care about in order to mess with natural roles then it is really obvious that they are in the wrong.
What gymnastics would you have performed if the systemic oppression of Uyghurs had been in my list? Another sin largely ignored by the echo chamber, yet one that certainly does single out a minority. Shall we speculate on the relative population sizes of 'effeminate' Chinese men vs Uyghurs while further regressing into this rationalization of selective outrage?
None, because that issue is hotly contested. This issue is not contested; there is no denial from them on this issue. If they are doing something wrong they know that it is wrong. Meanwhile they think this is something they can get away with openly.
I hope this clears up the confusion. There is no selectivity here.
I hope this clears up the confusion. There is no selectivity here.
Hotly contested? Uyghur oppression is some figment of our imagination? Will you assert that without the "hotly contested" weasel words?
No that seems like you are over-extending what I said. 'Hotly contested' doesn't imply there is substance to the context, only that there is great effort being made.
> 'Hotly contested' doesn't imply there is substance to the context, only that there is great effort being made.
This is incoherent.
This is incoherent.
It's not about an amount of caring like liters of water. Even then the things you mention are effects and not causes.
Also maybe the genocide in Xinjiang.
The constant attacks against India.
Daily sending war planes into Taiwan's air defense zone.
Using armed fishing vessels to militarily attack the Philippines.
Raiding the fishing grounds of poor countries by turning off transponders and sending hundreds of fishing vessels into their national waters at night.
Destroying world heritage nature reserves to steal fish.
And don't get me started about the crimes the Chinese Communists are doing to the Chinese people...
The constant attacks against India.
Daily sending war planes into Taiwan's air defense zone.
Using armed fishing vessels to militarily attack the Philippines.
Raiding the fishing grounds of poor countries by turning off transponders and sending hundreds of fishing vessels into their national waters at night.
Destroying world heritage nature reserves to steal fish.
And don't get me started about the crimes the Chinese Communists are doing to the Chinese people...
steelstraw(3)
lucian1900(3)
The real q should be what is not banned …
Almost 6.5 billion people in the world excluding china, and I don't think a single one should care.
> The move comes as a surprise
How dense and gullible do you have to be?
Do people keep forgetting they’re dealing with an authoritarian dictatorship?
ANYTHING is on the table, nothing should come as a surprise.
Divest from China and diversify manufacturing sources, otherwise we will wake up one day imprisoned, and „the move will come as a surprise“
How dense and gullible do you have to be?
Do people keep forgetting they’re dealing with an authoritarian dictatorship?
ANYTHING is on the table, nothing should come as a surprise.
Divest from China and diversify manufacturing sources, otherwise we will wake up one day imprisoned, and „the move will come as a surprise“
It's not a surprise because the localized version of steam done in cooperation with Perfect world, a Chinese publisher, was in development specifically for this purpose, I believe, i.e. the inevitable/planned replacement of foreign with local and fully controlled. Otherwise there wouldn't be a need to do it for Valve.
Not surprising really considering how hard it is to publish a game in China to begin with -- you basically have to have a local company representing you, and they usually take 80-90% of your profits, that's on top of the the 30% share that stores take, and go through an extensive bureaucratic process, with various forms of censorship of course, and even then there is no guarantee that you will be allowed to publish.
China tries and succeeds at playing the globalization game in a way that everyone else ends up dependent on them, but not the other way around. And the global corporations are stampeding over each others heads to betray all the principles there still are in the west for that sweet sweet access to the giant Chinese market, for the time being they are still allowed to that is.
Not surprising really considering how hard it is to publish a game in China to begin with -- you basically have to have a local company representing you, and they usually take 80-90% of your profits, that's on top of the the 30% share that stores take, and go through an extensive bureaucratic process, with various forms of censorship of course, and even then there is no guarantee that you will be allowed to publish.
China tries and succeeds at playing the globalization game in a way that everyone else ends up dependent on them, but not the other way around. And the global corporations are stampeding over each others heads to betray all the principles there still are in the west for that sweet sweet access to the giant Chinese market, for the time being they are still allowed to that is.
>> Divest from China and diversify manufacturing sources
Who is this aimed at?
Major brands (apple, tesla, disney, etc.) are not going to divest from China. China is a big part of their future market, they hope. They're going to invest wherever their market is. Obviously they know that this comes with strings and risks attached. They will get sideswiped with rules, punitive or otherwise.
Authoritarian government action is just a risk, like any other risk. Apple might also lose their popularity. Disney might get There could be an economic downturn. These are all risks, and companies take risks. The reward is worth the risk, evidently.
On the manufacturing side... there probably aren't as many surprises in the cards. Whatever qualms are to be had were had decades ago.
On a side note, China is proof that 99% of chamber of commerce-ish "warnings" are nonsense. Investment goes wherever the market is, whatever the rules. The ccp could decree that all iphones must be red and starred as of next week. Apple would make red starred iphones, and Cook would make a public statement praising the wisdom of this regulation.
Who is this aimed at?
Major brands (apple, tesla, disney, etc.) are not going to divest from China. China is a big part of their future market, they hope. They're going to invest wherever their market is. Obviously they know that this comes with strings and risks attached. They will get sideswiped with rules, punitive or otherwise.
Authoritarian government action is just a risk, like any other risk. Apple might also lose their popularity. Disney might get There could be an economic downturn. These are all risks, and companies take risks. The reward is worth the risk, evidently.
On the manufacturing side... there probably aren't as many surprises in the cards. Whatever qualms are to be had were had decades ago.
On a side note, China is proof that 99% of chamber of commerce-ish "warnings" are nonsense. Investment goes wherever the market is, whatever the rules. The ccp could decree that all iphones must be red and starred as of next week. Apple would make red starred iphones, and Cook would make a public statement praising the wisdom of this regulation.
> Major brands (apple, tesla, disney, etc.) are not going to divest from China
Diversification is already happening - 20,000 foreign companies have left China in the last 4 years. Samsung, LG, GoPro, etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk6lkW4A7Ec
> China is a big part of their future market
The Unemployed and semi-unemployed might reach 300M+ people in China. Chinese consumer market is slowing down big time - Lost decades just like Japan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk6lkW4A7Ec
Diversification is already happening - 20,000 foreign companies have left China in the last 4 years. Samsung, LG, GoPro, etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk6lkW4A7Ec
> China is a big part of their future market
The Unemployed and semi-unemployed might reach 300M+ people in China. Chinese consumer market is slowing down big time - Lost decades just like Japan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk6lkW4A7Ec
China is not a rich country per capita (on par with LATAM), but it’s massive size is what attracts businesses.
> Do people keep forgetting they’re dealing with an authoritarian dictatorship?
> ANYTHING is on the table, nothing should come as a surprise.
That does not follow from the first part. People and politics can, at large, still be predictable independent of the political organization.
> ANYTHING is on the table, nothing should come as a surprise.
That does not follow from the first part. People and politics can, at large, still be predictable independent of the political organization.
I would argue that any single individual is perfectly capable of being unpredictable, so any form of authoritarianism would derive that unpredictability.
This is, fwig, the instability that a republic is meant to fix.
This is, fwig, the instability that a republic is meant to fix.
This is also not a surprise because tech journalists as early as February already anticipated that Valve working on a Chinese version of Steam implied a later ban for the "international" version.
Waiting until they declare VPNs as a crime punishable by 5-10 years in prison when you're caught using one.
beebeepka(2)
[deleted]
taway54321(1)
Boilers on notice!
Maybe they don't want a dull population sitting many hours playing games and eat junk food.
Or they want the population to use some domestic platform, I am not sure, but even the Google ban has some legitimacy perhaps, when considering the amount of misleading news articles.
China does propaganda, the US outlets lie selectively according to their bias.
And such things can and will lead to having Trump elected with his maga disciples.
I think both are equally bad, just different.
Or they want the population to use some domestic platform, I am not sure, but even the Google ban has some legitimacy perhaps, when considering the amount of misleading news articles.
China does propaganda, the US outlets lie selectively according to their bias.
And such things can and will lead to having Trump elected with his maga disciples.
I think both are equally bad, just different.
Or maybe they don't want kids learning to communicate and cooperate randomly with each other through online games.
Or maybe they prefer that only video games that espouse loyalty to the party and communist values become the only possible types of games played, so they whittle away right along the road to achieving that goal
Recently I have been getting a lot more annoyed about China. Sure they can ban things, it's their right. But I just don't understand why we are not doing the same.
You don't understand why your own nation isn't following the tantrums of a totalitarian regime? That would make your own nation into China, why the heck would you want that?!
Because trade only really works if there's balance and bilateral rules.
Opening your nation to trade, while the other does not, and does things like subsidize their companies to put yours out of business, is not good.
The US should probably play tit-for-tat and ban an arbitrary Chinese company for every US company banned by China.
That way, China understands at least the repressions.
Of course, that policy might not work, as it would just spiral up into a big 'ban fest', but you get the idea.
Banning games is a funny thing, people like games. People are going to be upset.
When people are playing games, they are not agitating.
When people are bored, they think about things like politics.
Opening your nation to trade, while the other does not, and does things like subsidize their companies to put yours out of business, is not good.
The US should probably play tit-for-tat and ban an arbitrary Chinese company for every US company banned by China.
That way, China understands at least the repressions.
Of course, that policy might not work, as it would just spiral up into a big 'ban fest', but you get the idea.
Banning games is a funny thing, people like games. People are going to be upset.
When people are playing games, they are not agitating.
When people are bored, they think about things like politics.
We wouldn't be turning into China if we only banned Chinese companies, if we only blacklisted/punished western companies that spread CCP propaganda (nine-dash line, calling Taiwan a province of China, etc).
To quote HN user stale2002: Tit for tat reciprocity is the basis of most modern trade relations.
To quote HN user stale2002: Tit for tat reciprocity is the basis of most modern trade relations.
Banning Chinese companies is actually a ban on Americans using Chinese companies. As tempting as it is to retaliate or perhaps extract national economic gain, It must be done sparingly, if at all, as it as a reductions in freedom for American citizens.
> To quote HN user stale2002: Tit for tat reciprocity is the basis of most modern trade relations.
It is also a basis of the most bloody and destructive wars in the world. Are you hoping that this time US wins again?
It is also a basis of the most bloody and destructive wars in the world. Are you hoping that this time US wins again?
To put it bluntly: Because we're better than them.
Yet we are allowing human right abuses? I think we only care about money, that's why we allow this to happen.
Just look at Intel right now, apologizing for not using slave labour...
Just look at Intel right now, apologizing for not using slave labour...
Not by a large margin, but yes, yes you are, to some extent still.
I just wished you and Europe where as good as your PR, I really and genuinely do
I just wished you and Europe where as good as your PR, I really and genuinely do
Impossible. You are thinking about it as an exercise in rationality and morals. This is a fight of chimp tribes, all the bla bla about human rights,justice, liberty is a very thin coat about the hate for the other band of apes. We are talking about 7 million years of evolution in action.
No, that's not it at all.
Trade is a serious issue, it has consequences.
If China banned most US companies, the US would have to ban most Chinese companies.
Trade is a serious issue, it has consequences.
If China banned most US companies, the US would have to ban most Chinese companies.
Does it make it better to make our workers compete with people without rights, healthcare, holidays, sustainable pay? I don't have any problem with China they can ban what they want, I would just desire that this open borders crap would require import only from countries where workers have a compatible standard of living of importing countries
I probably should have added the implied "in this particular way at least".
Also, the problems you describe don't affect all of the western world. And I would like to add, based on talking to a few chinese friends, those things are a problem in China as well. Competition in particular is quite brutal from kindergarten onwards there.
Also, the problems you describe don't affect all of the western world. And I would like to add, based on talking to a few chinese friends, those things are a problem in China as well. Competition in particular is quite brutal from kindergarten onwards there.
Because we are not them? There must be a fine distinction which results in freedom of speech
Cough Huawei Cough.
I mean you should take yourself and your valuable talents to China and live your best life under the CCP paradise.
If other countries start banning everything, isn’t that just as bad as what China is doing here?
US already banned and blacklisted numbers of chinese companies
European and American economies will be destroyed by China soon. But their stockholm syndrome prevents them from doing anything against it.
Ooookkkkk. That's not even China's goal. China need the US and Europe to have strong economies to sell stuff to for the foreseeable future. China doesn't have a strong consumer sector, outside real estate, which is not a good driver for growth in the long term, and the demographics of China mean it's not likely to develop a strong consumer class before the work force ages out.
Eh these days biggest trade partner for China is ASEAN, it will be much bigger of course if other Asia included. Especially when RCEP become effective.
What is China going to do? Tell their corporations to take on trillions upon trillions of foreign currency denominated debt, become unable to repay it, default on it all and go bankrupt?
Because that seems like the current MO.
Because that seems like the current MO.
I just asked my 23 years old sister if she knew what Steam was, she said no.
I would guess that China doesn't have any big enough economic advantage of allowing steam, so maybe steam is not that really big that people think.
Not to mention Valve takes a large cut of game sales so China has pretty good reasons to block it.
Aren't PC game sales a big stagnant? And on all those sales, Steam seems to be interesting for indie and niches games, not for big AAA games, since those AAA games often have their own online platform.
I looked some numbers some time ago, and to me it seems that the PC game market is not really profitable anymore.
And honestly, China might also increase its game profits by banning steam. When you can legally push a product out to make more money, you do it. China doesn't care about liberal economics.
I would guess that China doesn't have any big enough economic advantage of allowing steam, so maybe steam is not that really big that people think.
Not to mention Valve takes a large cut of game sales so China has pretty good reasons to block it.
Aren't PC game sales a big stagnant? And on all those sales, Steam seems to be interesting for indie and niches games, not for big AAA games, since those AAA games often have their own online platform.
I looked some numbers some time ago, and to me it seems that the PC game market is not really profitable anymore.
And honestly, China might also increase its game profits by banning steam. When you can legally push a product out to make more money, you do it. China doesn't care about liberal economics.
China seems more anti-game than it seems pro-profit in this case.
Otherwise why limit children to 3 hours per week of gaming? Why ban images of “effeminate men”?
To me, China seems to be preparing.
Otherwise why limit children to 3 hours per week of gaming? Why ban images of “effeminate men”?
To me, China seems to be preparing.
> To me, China seems to be preparing.
This is a really interesting perspective. If China is trying to masculinize its teenage male population, we could see it engage in conflict as soon as these teenagers grow into adults at their physical prime, 6-8 years from now.
I think it's entirely likely that China will attempt to annex Taiwan within the next 10 years.
I think we will also see China be one of the first countries to engage in large-scale cyberwarfare alongside any physical conflict, e.g. DOS'ing civilian communications.
This is a really interesting perspective. If China is trying to masculinize its teenage male population, we could see it engage in conflict as soon as these teenagers grow into adults at their physical prime, 6-8 years from now.
I think it's entirely likely that China will attempt to annex Taiwan within the next 10 years.
I think we will also see China be one of the first countries to engage in large-scale cyberwarfare alongside any physical conflict, e.g. DOS'ing civilian communications.
Yes China seems to have a very long term perspective with their five year plans that they seem to take very seriously.
Couple that with the treatment China received in the Opium Wars, Rape of Nanking, etc.
I type on computers for a living so take it with a grain of salt. But it seems to me China was on top technologically for thousands of years. Then they suffered humiliations for hundreds of years. And I think they’re done with that.
Couple that with the treatment China received in the Opium Wars, Rape of Nanking, etc.
I type on computers for a living so take it with a grain of salt. But it seems to me China was on top technologically for thousands of years. Then they suffered humiliations for hundreds of years. And I think they’re done with that.
They were neck and neck with other civilizations but they certainly weren't "on top" unless you only read Chinese history books.
Most Chinese Steam users have historically been using the global service instead, as this Chinese version of Steam has only been available since February 2021.