How to start a successful freelance business as a software developer (2017)(nickjanetakis.com)
nickjanetakis.com
How to start a successful freelance business as a software developer (2017)
https://nickjanetakis.com/blog/how-to-start-a-successful-freelance-business-as-a-software-developer
165 comments
The moment a customer does not pay a bill within the specified terms is the moment you must stop working for them.
This also means that you must invoice regularly.
Learned that the hard way.
This also means that you must invoice regularly.
Learned that the hard way.
I bill NET 15 to protect myself, and it's served me well. A fair number of potential clients balk, preferring their usual NET 30 (or even longer), and if they don't come around, I wish them well and walk away from the opportunity.
If funds aren't in my account on the scheduled date (it's printed clearly on invoices), all work (even a tiny commit or Slack message) is suspended for the client. Thankfully this doesn't happen often, and when it does, the client almost always gets with the program thereafter. After two late payments (it's in my contract), I can terminate the engagement as-is, that's to say no wrap-up work of any kind.
This all helps to keep me paid, and just as importantly, improves the quality of my clients.
If funds aren't in my account on the scheduled date (it's printed clearly on invoices), all work (even a tiny commit or Slack message) is suspended for the client. Thankfully this doesn't happen often, and when it does, the client almost always gets with the program thereafter. After two late payments (it's in my contract), I can terminate the engagement as-is, that's to say no wrap-up work of any kind.
This all helps to keep me paid, and just as importantly, improves the quality of my clients.
This is effectively what I do too, and it seems to work for me as well.
Completely agreed.
I abandoned freelancing/moonlighting over collection issues. Including one client that I was basically 40 hours a week who didn't pay for six months, just like OP.
If I ever start again, I hope to be more diligent.
Always worth watching: https://vimeo.com/22053820 featured on Reddit's /u/freelancing, poetic symbolic title F*ck You, Pay Me.
If you are freelancing, watch it once a week.
If I ever start again, I hope to be more diligent.
Always worth watching: https://vimeo.com/22053820 featured on Reddit's /u/freelancing, poetic symbolic title F*ck You, Pay Me.
If you are freelancing, watch it once a week.
You went six months at 40 hours a week without collecting anything at all?
Usually this goes with paying some, but not all. There's always an excuse and they promise to pay more soon.
Most likely it is even a valid excuse. The problem is that the bill runs up over time and you end up deeper and deeper.
These customers tend to be super nice. I still don't hate the customer that teached me how this works, but I did have to engage a lawyer and that's one thing I never want to go through again.
Most likely it is even a valid excuse. The problem is that the bill runs up over time and you end up deeper and deeper.
These customers tend to be super nice. I still don't hate the customer that teached me how this works, but I did have to engage a lawyer and that's one thing I never want to go through again.
Yes, eventually 100% of the money came through.
I was naive and just starting out then. Today I would never put up with something like that.
I was naive and just starting out then. Today I would never put up with something like that.
>The moment a customer does not pay a bill within the specified terms is the moment you must stop working for them.
Be reasonable and communicate. I've had clients tell me in advance they'd be late and had mega corps tell me they are holding all payments until next quarter. . This is really where you have to live with your client being slow pay. When things go sideways, sometimes the right call is to get your work in per the deadline so that when you do end up in court, the whole amount of the bill can be collected, not just the part you turned in.
The big thing is communicate and be reasonable. I've also had clients where I've been able to ask for an advance (and got it) or ask for them to pay earlier. Being flexible set that up (i.e. you were slow last quarter... any chance we can speed up the next milestone payment?)
>This also means that you must invoice regularly.
#1 mistake that most freelancers make is not billing or waiting until "it's worth doing". Have a great system for tracking your hours and deliverables and billing them, as that is all you'll usually need to win any billing dispute.
Be reasonable and communicate. I've had clients tell me in advance they'd be late and had mega corps tell me they are holding all payments until next quarter. . This is really where you have to live with your client being slow pay. When things go sideways, sometimes the right call is to get your work in per the deadline so that when you do end up in court, the whole amount of the bill can be collected, not just the part you turned in.
The big thing is communicate and be reasonable. I've also had clients where I've been able to ask for an advance (and got it) or ask for them to pay earlier. Being flexible set that up (i.e. you were slow last quarter... any chance we can speed up the next milestone payment?)
>This also means that you must invoice regularly.
#1 mistake that most freelancers make is not billing or waiting until "it's worth doing". Have a great system for tracking your hours and deliverables and billing them, as that is all you'll usually need to win any billing dispute.
Yep. Also late fees. I do net 30 with statutory interest (8% plus base rate) which is the maximum on UK B2B invoices. Acts as a nice encouragement and bumps you to the top of the payment pile.
It helps to have a financial buffer. When I started freelancing in 2012, I could do so while keeping the unemployment benefits I got for getting fired in the bankruptcy of my last employer (they survived and actually had a healthy business, but they'd made some poor financial decisions driven by a bug in their home-made accounting system). I ended up not really going anywhere that first year, got a few minor gigs, but after a year I got approached by a recruiter for a bigger client, and that took off. I've been doing half-year to year-and-a-half projects for various large client, including a railway company and 4 banks.
But I rely a lot on recruiters finding me on LinkedIn. I hate LinkedIn with its dark patterns, but it's where 90% of my work comes from, so I don't complain too hard.
But I rely a lot on recruiters finding me on LinkedIn. I hate LinkedIn with its dark patterns, but it's where 90% of my work comes from, so I don't complain too hard.
Sounds like you had terrible clients. Stuff like this seems to be very common, I had simular problems. The hardest part is to be relentless and judge bad people was wanting and move on to better things.
Did you continue to work for this client during these 6 months not getting paid?
No, basically I delivered an app, but the engineer on their side got fired so the back end didn't get done. They didn't want to pay me until they rehired and finished the backend so they could see the app working.
This won't help you, to other freelancers in the same situation, there is this amazing video by Mike Monteiro, titled F*ck You, Pay Me [1]
He has an example where the same thing happened, an entire department got laid off.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U
He has an example where the same thing happened, an entire department got laid off.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U
I mentioned this video also, the six month delay is due to one of the classic excuses he mentions.
This is what small claims court is for.
In most places, no lawyers are allowed, and no discovery. Filing is cheap typically.
Discovery is vital to keep nonsense costs down.
If anyone is thinking of going into consulting:
- simple, plainly worded contracts with pay schedules are important
- check your local small claims court, focus on if lawyers are allowed, if discovery is allowed
- find out what your local demand letter laws are like. A demand letter may be required prior to small claims court.
In most places, no lawyers are allowed, and no discovery. Filing is cheap typically.
Discovery is vital to keep nonsense costs down.
If anyone is thinking of going into consulting:
- simple, plainly worded contracts with pay schedules are important
- check your local small claims court, focus on if lawyers are allowed, if discovery is allowed
- find out what your local demand letter laws are like. A demand letter may be required prior to small claims court.
Small claims court in most areas has a max cap of dollar amount. Someone owed me $8k. Small claims maxes out at $5k.
IN RETROSPECT... I could possibly have taken them to small claims twice, over two unpaid invoices - each around $4k. That would have kept me under the limit, and possibly sped everything up a lot.
IN RETROSPECT... I could possibly have taken them to small claims twice, over two unpaid invoices - each around $4k. That would have kept me under the limit, and possibly sped everything up a lot.
Even dragging them into court for part recovery, is a victory.
Also, if it is a larger corp, even 50 people, small claims court means you are expending far less energy, and funds, than they do.
A corp of even 50 will probably hire a lawyer for advice, and to prep the case, even though the lawyer cannot be in court. The lawyer may try to hound you, trying to pretend they can compel discovery (again check local small claims laws here!)
Many small claims courts don't even allow recovery costs. Meaning, they just spent $20k, and pulled half a dozen employees into repeated discussions, you spent $100 on filing, and some of your time.
I have so little sympathy for miscreants who have no valid reason to pay, other than the one cited above. Pfft. Need to test it, will take half a year.
Come on! Their incompetence is not a valid reason to place an account in arrears.
I work, you pay, that's that.
(No anger here at all!)
So drag them into small claims, and watch them waste multiples of what they would have originally paid.
Also, if it is a larger corp, even 50 people, small claims court means you are expending far less energy, and funds, than they do.
A corp of even 50 will probably hire a lawyer for advice, and to prep the case, even though the lawyer cannot be in court. The lawyer may try to hound you, trying to pretend they can compel discovery (again check local small claims laws here!)
Many small claims courts don't even allow recovery costs. Meaning, they just spent $20k, and pulled half a dozen employees into repeated discussions, you spent $100 on filing, and some of your time.
I have so little sympathy for miscreants who have no valid reason to pay, other than the one cited above. Pfft. Need to test it, will take half a year.
Come on! Their incompetence is not a valid reason to place an account in arrears.
I work, you pay, that's that.
(No anger here at all!)
So drag them into small claims, and watch them waste multiples of what they would have originally paid.
Factoring companies could be a solution for that.
They pre-approve the bill / contract and pay you (minus a fee) and deal with your client themselves.
They pre-approve the bill / contract and pay you (minus a fee) and deal with your client themselves.
As the article alludes, but maybe doesn't state clearly enough, the most important and only thing that really matters when operating independently is the ability to get and retain clients. If you cannot do this, no amount of skill in other areas matters, and if you can do this, skill in other areas is probably helpful but not critical.
Anything you do that does not directly lead to getting a new client, or getting an existing client to sign up for more work, is wasted effort. Obviously you need to fulfill your obligations to clients (falls under the latter).
I always joke when I am freelancing that actually doing the job is 50% of my time, and the other 90% of my time is sales, marketing, and business development.
Anything you do that does not directly lead to getting a new client, or getting an existing client to sign up for more work, is wasted effort. Obviously you need to fulfill your obligations to clients (falls under the latter).
I always joke when I am freelancing that actually doing the job is 50% of my time, and the other 90% of my time is sales, marketing, and business development.
While I agree to an extend, also the quality of the 50% (the work) helps (or hinders) to get more work.
I was a freelance/contract developer for 2 years, went back to full time. And I had a golden ticket (a company had full time amount of work avail, I only did and billed for 20h/wk, paid every other week).
Now that almost all dev work is going to be remote friendly, The only advantage to freelancing that I can see is the flexibility to work less than 40 hour weeks, or take more time off than vacation time you're allotted.
That freedom is purchased with a lot of stress and uncertainty, and may not actually result in that much freedom if you're semi-actively always looking for leads.
Ultimately I found the type of work companies go to freelancers for is terribly uninteresting most of the time.
Now that almost all dev work is going to be remote friendly, The only advantage to freelancing that I can see is the flexibility to work less than 40 hour weeks, or take more time off than vacation time you're allotted.
That freedom is purchased with a lot of stress and uncertainty, and may not actually result in that much freedom if you're semi-actively always looking for leads.
Ultimately I found the type of work companies go to freelancers for is terribly uninteresting most of the time.
> The only advantage to freelancing that I can see is the flexibility to work less than 40 hour weeks, or take more time off than vacation time you're allotted.
I've been doing contract work exclusively for the past 9 years now and this is exactly why I continue with contract arrangements. If I could find a "permanent" position with flexibility like this I would likely consider transitioning away from contract work.
I've been doing contract work exclusively for the past 9 years now and this is exactly why I continue with contract arrangements. If I could find a "permanent" position with flexibility like this I would likely consider transitioning away from contract work.
You can go further and say there is little to no advantage in freelancing. A lot of remote dev work isn’t even 40/hrs a week of constant work. You can pick a low stress job working from home and still make six figures, more than most freelancers with far less stress.
I’ve given up on ever pursuing freelancing because I realized I actually didn’t want to be self-employed, I just wanted to work from home and be in control of my time.
I’ve given up on ever pursuing freelancing because I realized I actually didn’t want to be self-employed, I just wanted to work from home and be in control of my time.
In Europe freelancing is still the main way for a proper paycheck. The salaries have been rising so we'll see if the situation changes, but for now the six-figure jobs are still somewhat elusive outside freelancing.
> You can pick a low stress job working from home and still make six figures, more than most freelancers with far less stress.
Where are these low stress remote jobs making six figures? Asking for a friend.
Where are these low stress remote jobs making six figures? Asking for a friend.
There’s plenty of jobs that are just heads down coding, cranking out tickets and attending a couple zoom meetings a week. Once you find such a job, just stick to it. Don’t go getting promoted to some higher position where you have to endure more meetings or become responsible for more things and have a bunch of people depending on you.
When you want more income, pick up a second job that is also similar. You should easily clear a quarter million dollars or more a year this way, and all you’re doing is writing code and going to some meetings. Easy.
When you want more income, pick up a second job that is also similar. You should easily clear a quarter million dollars or more a year this way, and all you’re doing is writing code and going to some meetings. Easy.
Most US tech companies, except the trick is that you have to put up strong boundaries to overworking and be okay with level stagnation.
Most folks I know in FAANG/equivalent are not that stressed once you give up the race for promotions and accolades.
Most folks I know in FAANG/equivalent are not that stressed once you give up the race for promotions and accolades.
Even then, I've found setting boundaries can actually help with promotions. Making it clear that your time is valuable to you can help force others to value your time. As long as you're spending the rest of your time on the right stuff (80/20 rule totally applies), you can have stellar performance AND a 40 (or effectively less) hour work week.
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> I realized I actually didn’t want to be self-employed
Good for you. I spend a lot of time on /r/freelance and I've identified this as the main reason most freelancers have trouble and just flat out don't like it. They really just don't like running a small business. It's essentially impossible to thrive as a freelancer unless you accept (actually embrace!) this.
Good for you. I spend a lot of time on /r/freelance and I've identified this as the main reason most freelancers have trouble and just flat out don't like it. They really just don't like running a small business. It's essentially impossible to thrive as a freelancer unless you accept (actually embrace!) this.
> Now that almost all dev work is going to be remote friendly, The only advantage to freelancing that I can see is the flexibility to work less than 40 hour weeks, or take more time off than vacation time you're allotted.
Oh, there's a few more reasons: taxes (paid in arrears, after expenses), carry your own insurance/benefits (can work really well if you are young & healthy), business can own property, corporate veil, separate business finance from personal, have more than one client, etc...
> Ultimately I found the type of work companies go to freelancers for is terribly uninteresting most of the time.
Sometimes. Other times it can be better.
Oh, there's a few more reasons: taxes (paid in arrears, after expenses), carry your own insurance/benefits (can work really well if you are young & healthy), business can own property, corporate veil, separate business finance from personal, have more than one client, etc...
> Ultimately I found the type of work companies go to freelancers for is terribly uninteresting most of the time.
Sometimes. Other times it can be better.
Health insurance is not pro. At a big four I am paying ~$50/month for great health insurance, freelancing it was 650 from Covered California and involved repeated heated calls to every party involved.
> Health insurance is not pro. At a big four I am paying ~$50/month for great health insurance,
Most employers aren't passing through the whole premium. With my current company, we're covering 85% of the premium for our employees, so they see some token amount out of their paychecks, but the actual premium is a lot bigger than $50/month.
It's hard to beat HC insurance from a big employer. When you have to buy your own, it can work out as you usually can get a higher hourly rate than an employee by 25-30%. You also avoid double deductibles when your employer changes the plan changes mid-year. You also avoid COBRA if you quit or are fired.
Most employers aren't passing through the whole premium. With my current company, we're covering 85% of the premium for our employees, so they see some token amount out of their paychecks, but the actual premium is a lot bigger than $50/month.
It's hard to beat HC insurance from a big employer. When you have to buy your own, it can work out as you usually can get a higher hourly rate than an employee by 25-30%. You also avoid double deductibles when your employer changes the plan changes mid-year. You also avoid COBRA if you quit or are fired.
Personally glad to be free of complex taxes and insane health care costs on individual market.
Being a developer is too cushy a job full-time.
Being a developer is too cushy a job full-time.
To quote Ray, this is through US colored glasses advice. How would a developer from, let's say, Middle East find good clients? If they only walk and take down notes of business in their area, they will only get jobs that pays according to local wages, none of them would be even $25/h let alone the dream of $150/h like US freelancers.
Yeah, Upwork will "mandate that you keep an app running that randomly takes screenshots of your desktop" but for me, an East European freelancer, was the only way to find clients from US/Canada with which I developed long term relationship.
Perhaps instead of fully vilifying platforms with "Beware of Freelance Platforms, They Are Evil", the author might want to walk a mile in our, less fortunate ones from shitty countries, shoes. My 2 cents.
Yeah, Upwork will "mandate that you keep an app running that randomly takes screenshots of your desktop" but for me, an East European freelancer, was the only way to find clients from US/Canada with which I developed long term relationship.
Perhaps instead of fully vilifying platforms with "Beware of Freelance Platforms, They Are Evil", the author might want to walk a mile in our, less fortunate ones from shitty countries, shoes. My 2 cents.
I second that. "Don't go to freelancing platforms, reach out to your network and local companies" is only good advice if you happen to be in the social/geographical/economical environment that has plenty of opportunities. Local market in any of East European countries is far smaller than it is on Upwork, Fiverr et. al. and is highly unlikely to pay first world rates. One may say that freelancing platform encourage race to the bottom kind of dynamics. That is true to some degree, but for the most part that is a problem only if you are doing commodity work and primarily compete on price. There is a relatively obscure sub-economy in the world of freelancing platform with people doing professional services for professional rates even by the standards of the first world.
Eastern European dev here too, chiming in to confirm the validity of this argument in my experience.
> Upwork will "mandate that you keep an app running that randomly takes screenshots of your desktop"
Of course, this feels really intrusive and back in the day i negotiated fixed price contracts on Upwork with clients, though finding good projects on the platform (and not just ones that ask you to fix neglected WordPress installs) also took a lot of effort.
Nonetheless, when studying in University and before having a proper long term job (in this case in a local company due to the stability of it and academic requirements to work in a credentialed company), it was a nice way to help me get some income!
> Upwork will "mandate that you keep an app running that randomly takes screenshots of your desktop"
Of course, this feels really intrusive and back in the day i negotiated fixed price contracts on Upwork with clients, though finding good projects on the platform (and not just ones that ask you to fix neglected WordPress installs) also took a lot of effort.
Nonetheless, when studying in University and before having a proper long term job (in this case in a local company due to the stability of it and academic requirements to work in a credentialed company), it was a nice way to help me get some income!
[deleted]
Author here, thanks for submitting this.
If anyone has any questions about anything let me know. The post is meant to be a getting started guide. Beyond answering questions here I'd be happy to follow up with additional posts about specific topics if there's interest.
If anyone has any questions about anything let me know. The post is meant to be a getting started guide. Beyond answering questions here I'd be happy to follow up with additional posts about specific topics if there's interest.
What would you say your hit rate is on your cold calls, and/or what is a realistic hit rate?
There's so many deciding factors that go into this. There's timing, you, them, the situation, etc.. It could be a specific percent today and a different percent 2 weeks from now.
I never really payed attention to quantifying these types of stats because I think as an individual your sample size is going to be too small to get meaningful data out of it. In my mind it's always a numbers game where the only thing that matters is if I land a gig or not.
I tweak things based on individual calls and kind of use my gut to guide me. It's not the most scientific thing but I don't think personal sales with a small'ish sample size is going to be purely scientific. So much of it is dependent on reading the other person in real-time and adjusting as you go.
When in doubt honesty and less "hard sale" tactics have worked well.
I never really payed attention to quantifying these types of stats because I think as an individual your sample size is going to be too small to get meaningful data out of it. In my mind it's always a numbers game where the only thing that matters is if I land a gig or not.
I tweak things based on individual calls and kind of use my gut to guide me. It's not the most scientific thing but I don't think personal sales with a small'ish sample size is going to be purely scientific. So much of it is dependent on reading the other person in real-time and adjusting as you go.
When in doubt honesty and less "hard sale" tactics have worked well.
You mention getting numbers as you walk around town, what kind of rates do you charge if this converts into a gig?
It's dependent on the business and project / contract.
Anywhere from $100 to $200 an hour generally but I don't always stick to that.
There's a lot of things to think about. For example having a relationship with a high value trades person (plumber, doctor, lawyer, etc.) has an immense amount of long term value. That doesn't mean you need to drastically cut your rates, but it's something to think about when evaluating how much to charge.
For smaller more common local businesses where it's mostly trading time for money (as opposed to raw materials), I don't mind cutting rates by a lot because it's mutually beneficial for both of us. For example, if a haircutter wants a basic site, instead of charging them $500 to throw up a WP site in a day I might offer to do the site for something substantially less (let's say $150).
I won't bring it up directly that I'm cutting them a massive deal but if you word it around how you want to help a local business and you generally like the person they'll often offer you a deal on their end like free haircuts for life. To me that's more beneficial than a few hundred bucks up front. Not just from a greedy position of expecting something better later, but I've found having a wider network of friends or contacts proves to be useful time and time again.
Anywhere from $100 to $200 an hour generally but I don't always stick to that.
There's a lot of things to think about. For example having a relationship with a high value trades person (plumber, doctor, lawyer, etc.) has an immense amount of long term value. That doesn't mean you need to drastically cut your rates, but it's something to think about when evaluating how much to charge.
For smaller more common local businesses where it's mostly trading time for money (as opposed to raw materials), I don't mind cutting rates by a lot because it's mutually beneficial for both of us. For example, if a haircutter wants a basic site, instead of charging them $500 to throw up a WP site in a day I might offer to do the site for something substantially less (let's say $150).
I won't bring it up directly that I'm cutting them a massive deal but if you word it around how you want to help a local business and you generally like the person they'll often offer you a deal on their end like free haircuts for life. To me that's more beneficial than a few hundred bucks up front. Not just from a greedy position of expecting something better later, but I've found having a wider network of friends or contacts proves to be useful time and time again.
> Sure you have to pick up a phone, but if it lands you a $2,000 deal that requires 10-20 hours of work, then why are you upset?
Because I have to pick up a phone. Phones are scary.
Because I have to pick up a phone. Phones are scary.
Why do you feel phones are scary?
Not OP but everything that is not written is scary.
Suddenly you have someone telling you what you told them and starts wondering: did I really promise that?
(Written doesn't prevent people from trying that trick, as one particulariy brilliant but not very pleasant guy tried to tell me: "yes, <my name> that is what you wrote [in the mail] but not what you meant." However, in these cases I have a written record and I am confindent with myselves and that nasty person can bugger off.)
Not saying one should never talk to people on the phone but when one are stressed out and stretched out thin it is not high on my wishlist.
Suddenly you have someone telling you what you told them and starts wondering: did I really promise that?
(Written doesn't prevent people from trying that trick, as one particulariy brilliant but not very pleasant guy tried to tell me: "yes, <my name> that is what you wrote [in the mail] but not what you meant." However, in these cases I have a written record and I am confindent with myselves and that nasty person can bugger off.)
Not saying one should never talk to people on the phone but when one are stressed out and stretched out thin it is not high on my wishlist.
I hate phones as well but I've developed myself a ritual for alleviating th burden of anxiety-causing calls. Maybe this helps someone else as well:
1. Take pen and paper
2. Write a brief script how to start the call. Just sufficient amount of notes that you have a clear and concise agenda
3. During call take notes
4. If you don't understand something, repeat for the other party what they've said. Not in a way that it can be understood you agree with them as this can become a really problem with business dicussions, but using phrasing as "Can I repeat what you said so I am clear on this. According to you..."
5. At the end of the call, if there are topics that should be handled by you or the other party, review what was agreed topic by topic.
I generally find people appreciate this structured approach in calls. At least it reduces most of the anxiety from my part to minimum.
1. Take pen and paper
2. Write a brief script how to start the call. Just sufficient amount of notes that you have a clear and concise agenda
3. During call take notes
4. If you don't understand something, repeat for the other party what they've said. Not in a way that it can be understood you agree with them as this can become a really problem with business dicussions, but using phrasing as "Can I repeat what you said so I am clear on this. According to you..."
5. At the end of the call, if there are topics that should be handled by you or the other party, review what was agreed topic by topic.
I generally find people appreciate this structured approach in calls. At least it reduces most of the anxiety from my part to minimum.
This is pretty easily solved.
"Hey XYZ, it was such a pleasure speaking with you today. I'm going to shoot ya an email in a bit just to follow-up with everything we discussed. Have a great day!"
Or - if that scares you still - just shoot them an email anyway to follow-up and recap without preluding. It gives them the opportunity to change/add/whatever in-text, and they can't say you said something differently because you can point to the email and say - no, we said this (And you didn't correct me).
"Hey XYZ, it was such a pleasure speaking with you today. I'm going to shoot ya an email in a bit just to follow-up with everything we discussed. Have a great day!"
Or - if that scares you still - just shoot them an email anyway to follow-up and recap without preluding. It gives them the opportunity to change/add/whatever in-text, and they can't say you said something differently because you can point to the email and say - no, we said this (And you didn't correct me).
Skip the conversation over phone/skype, and it will work even better. Worked fine for me for 20 years (since 1998), until Covid, when Zoom become the new norm.
What you do is write notes (or use the meeting transcription) and after the meeting send the important points around in an email as minutes of the meeting.
That way you still have a written record to refer to.
That way you still have a written record to refer to.
Depending on your local laws, it might be legal to record calls. Do so and then after the call listen to it again and take notes - that'll allow you to track what's been said.
This prompted me to finally look at Australian law on the point. It varies by state: some allow you to record if you’re a party to the conversation, others require consent or similar, but all of the latter have an exception for if you’re protecting the lawful interests of one party, which sounds to me like blanket permission to record.
Kinda like how snakes are protected in Australia and it’s illegal to kill them unless you or your family or such are in immediate danger from a snake, which basically means if you see a snake you can kill it.
Kinda like how snakes are protected in Australia and it’s illegal to kill them unless you or your family or such are in immediate danger from a snake, which basically means if you see a snake you can kill it.
It’s not easy to explain. I have to talk to someone. Maybe it’s someone I know, someone I talk to every week at church, but… this is by phone. It’s different. I know I have to make a phone call today or tomorrow, but I know I can’t ring now because he’ll be out on the farm, and if I ring now I’ll probably interrupt their evening meal or their family Bible readings, and now it’s too late, and now he might be at work, and… oh. I was supposed to call him the day before yesterday. Oops.
I want to drop my car off for a service in Ballarat when I head down to Melbourne later this week, but that takes ringing them to make a booking. I should have done this in the middle of last week, when I planned to go down. All it takes is ringing their number, saying “can I book my car in for a service, drop off on the 13ᵗʰ or 14ᵗʰ, collection on the 15ᵗʰ”. For some reason that I can’t express, I haven’t made that phone call, and it’s probably too late now. I guess that DPF light will just continue flashing for a while longer.
I could go on and on. It’s quite ridiculous how much trouble I have caused myself (and others, sometimes) just because I don’t like making phone calls. I’ve delayed things that would benefit me for years in a couple of cases. Receiving phone calls isn’t my favourite, either. I’m not crash hot with email or letters either, but phones and text messages are significantly worse.
Phone call quality used to be fairly terrible, and I think that helped make it more of an ordeal too. That excuse is mostly gone now.
If you don’t mind, or like, phones, you might be surprised just how many people are quite averse to making phone calls, some to the point of hating it with the passion of perhaps not a thousand suns, but at least a brown dwarf or two. Five or six of my seven siblings are in much the same boat as me, and my parents don’t like phones either. A couple of my siblings, and multiple other people I’ve talked with, find they more or less forget what they were going to talk about as soon as the call connects, and so it becomes an ordeal where they have to write a detailed list of what they want to talk about before dialing, or else their mind is just blank.
But there is yet hope for me: I’m setting myself up as the local IT guy in my rural area, in significant part to force myself to deal with people more. Computers are easy, they do what I tell them to do, and I’m even pretty good at telling them the right thing to do; but people are what actually matter in life. I’m waiting for the return of Jesus and the establishment of God’s kingdom on earth, and I don’t think we’ll need software then. Well, a bloke rang me yesterday, I answered, and today I did my first job, and even got paid straight away.
I want to drop my car off for a service in Ballarat when I head down to Melbourne later this week, but that takes ringing them to make a booking. I should have done this in the middle of last week, when I planned to go down. All it takes is ringing their number, saying “can I book my car in for a service, drop off on the 13ᵗʰ or 14ᵗʰ, collection on the 15ᵗʰ”. For some reason that I can’t express, I haven’t made that phone call, and it’s probably too late now. I guess that DPF light will just continue flashing for a while longer.
I could go on and on. It’s quite ridiculous how much trouble I have caused myself (and others, sometimes) just because I don’t like making phone calls. I’ve delayed things that would benefit me for years in a couple of cases. Receiving phone calls isn’t my favourite, either. I’m not crash hot with email or letters either, but phones and text messages are significantly worse.
Phone call quality used to be fairly terrible, and I think that helped make it more of an ordeal too. That excuse is mostly gone now.
If you don’t mind, or like, phones, you might be surprised just how many people are quite averse to making phone calls, some to the point of hating it with the passion of perhaps not a thousand suns, but at least a brown dwarf or two. Five or six of my seven siblings are in much the same boat as me, and my parents don’t like phones either. A couple of my siblings, and multiple other people I’ve talked with, find they more or less forget what they were going to talk about as soon as the call connects, and so it becomes an ordeal where they have to write a detailed list of what they want to talk about before dialing, or else their mind is just blank.
But there is yet hope for me: I’m setting myself up as the local IT guy in my rural area, in significant part to force myself to deal with people more. Computers are easy, they do what I tell them to do, and I’m even pretty good at telling them the right thing to do; but people are what actually matter in life. I’m waiting for the return of Jesus and the establishment of God’s kingdom on earth, and I don’t think we’ll need software then. Well, a bloke rang me yesterday, I answered, and today I did my first job, and even got paid straight away.
Thank you for the explanation! It makes more sense to me now.
You're selling a product (service.) You need to market the product.
You also need to handle administration of the business or outsource those tasks.
Regardless of who is putting in this effort, your business needs to pay for it (your time or the time someone else puts into it.)
Add to that, self-employment taxes, insurance, sick leave, vacation leave, equipment, office, utilities, etc. Anything you aren't charging for, you're subsidizing.
That's ABC stuff.
I don't like the word freelancing, because people take the label with a bunch of assumptions, which may not be correct. The language "the most important thing" is also troublesome because it may put you in the wrong frame.
The reality is that running a business is a common complex thing. It's like relationships, many people are in them, but being such a common part of life doesn't make them easier to figure out. Society gives you basic scaffolding, which you need to use or not use as basic building blocks. Come to the problem with an empty cup and start building from scratch. And then it still isn't easy, as many people get caught up in details which isn't necessarily giving back the same return on the end result. My heuristic is to start with the envisioned end-result, work backwards and then build a plan going forwards again. The entire time, you have an eye on that end-result and asking if what you are doing is serving that end-point. And then, as Tyson said, "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." But a plan is better than no plan.
There's no "the most important thing." It's more complex than that. You have to approach a complex problem with agility to shift frames. Be creative. Be curious. Ask questions. Do research. Answer the questions. Every article about "this is how you do <insert complex thing> is missing massive amounts of detail.
Also note, there is a goldmine of articles on making money on building software in HN. Do a search. If you stop at this thread, you're seriously missing out.
And further reading on detail in life...
http://johnsalvatier.org/blog/2017/reality-has-a-surprising-...
ETA: This is more about the mindset than the nuts and bolts. There are tons of golden posts here on the nuts and bolts. Do a search and see what pops up with the most votes and comments.
You also need to handle administration of the business or outsource those tasks.
Regardless of who is putting in this effort, your business needs to pay for it (your time or the time someone else puts into it.)
Add to that, self-employment taxes, insurance, sick leave, vacation leave, equipment, office, utilities, etc. Anything you aren't charging for, you're subsidizing.
That's ABC stuff.
I don't like the word freelancing, because people take the label with a bunch of assumptions, which may not be correct. The language "the most important thing" is also troublesome because it may put you in the wrong frame.
The reality is that running a business is a common complex thing. It's like relationships, many people are in them, but being such a common part of life doesn't make them easier to figure out. Society gives you basic scaffolding, which you need to use or not use as basic building blocks. Come to the problem with an empty cup and start building from scratch. And then it still isn't easy, as many people get caught up in details which isn't necessarily giving back the same return on the end result. My heuristic is to start with the envisioned end-result, work backwards and then build a plan going forwards again. The entire time, you have an eye on that end-result and asking if what you are doing is serving that end-point. And then, as Tyson said, "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." But a plan is better than no plan.
There's no "the most important thing." It's more complex than that. You have to approach a complex problem with agility to shift frames. Be creative. Be curious. Ask questions. Do research. Answer the questions. Every article about "this is how you do <insert complex thing> is missing massive amounts of detail.
Also note, there is a goldmine of articles on making money on building software in HN. Do a search. If you stop at this thread, you're seriously missing out.
And further reading on detail in life...
http://johnsalvatier.org/blog/2017/reality-has-a-surprising-...
ETA: This is more about the mindset than the nuts and bolts. There are tons of golden posts here on the nuts and bolts. Do a search and see what pops up with the most votes and comments.
Honestly it couldn't be easier if you have some degree of skill - register on Toptal.com and the jobs literally flow in ($70p/h + depending on skills) and you don't have to worry about contracts, marketing, management, invoices etc - you literally just do the work.
Frankly, Toptal rates are not good enough if you know what you're doing / are a senior. They seem to take way too much. There are lots of agencies, in Europe at least, that specialize in freelancer staffing and take a much lower cut -- depends on an agency of course and how transparent they are, but you should be able to find one taking 10€/h and passing on the rest to you.
Even better is to have direct clients but that's then a lot more time consuming.
Even better is to have direct clients but that's then a lot more time consuming.
[deleted]
any agency you can recommend?
Hmm, while that’s a random number with no specific skills attacked, $70ph works out ~£412pd which is not very high at least by London standards compared to getting a contract job as a developer.
What's the things with Toptal ? You need to succeed 3 different technical interviews where one is a one week long project and if you pass all 3, you are not guarantee to have contracts.
I've heard of people not having contracts after succeeding everything.
To me there is no way I will work for one useless algorithm exam, one interview with a Toptal engineer and then one week long project.
I've heard of people not having contracts after succeeding everything.
To me there is no way I will work for one useless algorithm exam, one interview with a Toptal engineer and then one week long project.
> You need to succeed 3 different technical interviews where one is a one week long project and if you pass all 3, you are not guarantee to have contracts.
Sounds like I might as well be doing regular interviews....
Sounds like I might as well be doing regular interviews....
Toptal selection is flawed exactly in the same way many tech hiring processes are: they heavily bias against people who are busy enough not to be able to fit 1-3 weeks long unpaid projects into their schedule. Sure, it weeds out incompetent people, but that's not the same as selecting top people.
agree, it is easy if you are a good engineer. I usually work with headhunter, they take my CV and arrange interviews with customers. From there is just like applying for a normal job. Key is to have a good CV and perform in the interviews.
Having a serious side project in your CV helps. For me its https://www.monsterwriter.app/
Having a serious side project in your CV helps. For me its https://www.monsterwriter.app/
Addion: I guess what I'm doing is called "contractor". Working for one client at a time but for multiple months. For me this is more profitable then working for 10 clients at the same time. Between the contracts, you also have time to rest a litte.
Any tips on finding a good headhunter?
This was my experience too. After the initial period where recruiters are a bit afraid to give you your first engagement everything starts flowing really smooth.
I started at Upwork and was constantly writing proposals and struggling with the search to find relevant jobs.
But on Toptal, even after an abrupt end of the contract I get something else in less than a week and it's zero effort from me and all effort from the Toptal team.
Even if I get bored and want a change, announcing the end of contract turns on the avalanche of offers from the Toptal team.
It's just insanely smooth and I had no idea I'd find something like that, initially.
I started at Upwork and was constantly writing proposals and struggling with the search to find relevant jobs.
But on Toptal, even after an abrupt end of the contract I get something else in less than a week and it's zero effort from me and all effort from the Toptal team.
Even if I get bored and want a change, announcing the end of contract turns on the avalanche of offers from the Toptal team.
It's just insanely smooth and I had no idea I'd find something like that, initially.
Other comment mentions difficult onboarding process at Toptal with 3 interviews, is this also your impression?
Their interview process is well documented (for instance, here https://clevercoder.net/2017/09/04/toptal-passed-interview/). My experience was that it was doable, though you need to brush up your algorithm skills and have luck with the problems you get.
The interview process is onerous more than difficult: mostly leetcode style questions that need lots of practice for, plus a basic but time-consuming take-home task.
And for me the scheduling was super difficult: the whole process took weeks, with the only times available at odd hours West Coast US time, and my recruiter flaking and rescheduling once.
Beyond some basic level of coding, it's more a test of patience and time.
And for me the scheduling was super difficult: the whole process took weeks, with the only times available at odd hours West Coast US time, and my recruiter flaking and rescheduling once.
Beyond some basic level of coding, it's more a test of patience and time.
Automatically evaluated leet coding session (2 hours) + Live English language check interview (15 mins) + 2 week fake template project + Live coding session (30 mins).
I was fortunate enough to pass everything without additional attempts and had no job at that time. Some of my friends got in after 1 year (after you fail at some step, 2nd attempt is delayed), some never managed to complete the whole process.
I was fortunate enough to pass everything without additional attempts and had no job at that time. Some of my friends got in after 1 year (after you fail at some step, 2nd attempt is delayed), some never managed to complete the whole process.
Would you mind going into your experiences with Toptal more? I’ve been curious about them but it’s hard to tell whether it’s any different from the other freelance sites.
Not OP, but I do about 50% of my freelancing though Toptal (the rest through my network). I see them as having 2 advantages over other sites:
1. Unlike smaller sites and job boards, they have lots of work available. Every couple of days something is posted that aligns perfectly with my skills.
2. Unlike odesk/fiverr/elance they pay market rates. Not FAANG or CTO or IPO rates, but I charge more on Toptal than I ever earned working for Bay Area startups. Plus you get paid net 20; they're on the hook for getting paid from the client.
Everything else about Toptal is frustrating: the byzantine interview process that's irrelevant to the actual work you perform, constant pressure to decrease your rates, the big cut they take, legal restrictions on forming relationships with clients outside Toptal, staff who won't leave you alone during the application process but vanish the second the contract is signed.
I wouldn't want to rely solely on them for freelancing. But they're great when I have a gap in my schedule: I can fill out minimal online applications on Monday, start work by the end of the week, money in the bank by the end of the month.
1. Unlike smaller sites and job boards, they have lots of work available. Every couple of days something is posted that aligns perfectly with my skills.
2. Unlike odesk/fiverr/elance they pay market rates. Not FAANG or CTO or IPO rates, but I charge more on Toptal than I ever earned working for Bay Area startups. Plus you get paid net 20; they're on the hook for getting paid from the client.
Everything else about Toptal is frustrating: the byzantine interview process that's irrelevant to the actual work you perform, constant pressure to decrease your rates, the big cut they take, legal restrictions on forming relationships with clients outside Toptal, staff who won't leave you alone during the application process but vanish the second the contract is signed.
I wouldn't want to rely solely on them for freelancing. But they're great when I have a gap in my schedule: I can fill out minimal online applications on Monday, start work by the end of the week, money in the bank by the end of the month.
Could you expand on the restrictions regarding relationships with clients outside Toptal? When I signed the contract, I remember paying attention to this and being pleased to read that you are allowed to work directly with a client after one year from the engagement's end date (which is similar to a clause I had when I was employed for a consulting firm). Are there other restrictions than this?
Guess it depends on where in the world. But for many, $70 per hour wouldn't be that great when all costs are subtracted, down time without billing included etc.
This is generally good advice, but there is a caveat to the point about networking: it dilutes you. selling out is a real thing, I've found, and the more you care about others and their whims the less of yourself will be left in the work. This is fine if you work in marketing, for example, where your job is to sell someone or something else, but if you're a product person, be careful.
If you are a product person, i recommend slowing down, think about stuff and dedicate yourself to the parts of your work and the relationships you find meaningful. It pays less, at least in the short term, but it is quite nice to feel true to yourself.
If you are a product person, i recommend slowing down, think about stuff and dedicate yourself to the parts of your work and the relationships you find meaningful. It pays less, at least in the short term, but it is quite nice to feel true to yourself.
Actually at what point does one become not freelance but a studio? I find people/company treat you at a spectrum of seriousness, payment dueness in particular, between "freelance" and studio. Is it a business registration, team size, or mentality? Otherwise I would suggest not to use the term freelance but to start your own studio house instead.
Part of this is in the way you present - do you have a business structure, do you use all the right terminology and language? I personally say I am a small business and rely on the funds coming in, and cannot afford to loan money to a large business then get into a position where a large amount of money is outstanding. The payment terms are part of my negotiation before I sign the contract, and go on the contract. This includes politely informing that I stop work if the owed balance gets to the size I specify, typically two weeks fulltime.
Having got agreement at the executive level, it often gets tried on anyway, but the very first day it's late I start letting people know, and consuming their time, and reiterating reasons why its setup to pay. I follow the chain of people to get actual contact to the accounts paying person and build a personal relationship with them, as an individual they have a commitment to paying rather than just another bill on the stack. An individual who will ring them for a person plea, plus consume their time, if they don't pay as agreed.
This reminds them it's an issue and that my work continuing relies on them paying, as they agreed. I do this politely, but clearly, and conscientiously. I find this significantly increases my chances of getting paid properly.
The critical time for this is when the first, and perhaps second bills are paid. Once they are trained that yours is a bill to to pay without games, it tends to become smooth sailing.
Also, in the case where it is delayed - stop working. This is critical. If you work when they are not paying as agreed you're undermining your main leverage and will possibly have big problems.
Be polite, always, yet clear and firm about the agreements made, and be ready to walk away and find new work if necessary. Usually late payments will be resolved in days to a week and if it's taking longer then put your effort to finding new work.
Having got agreement at the executive level, it often gets tried on anyway, but the very first day it's late I start letting people know, and consuming their time, and reiterating reasons why its setup to pay. I follow the chain of people to get actual contact to the accounts paying person and build a personal relationship with them, as an individual they have a commitment to paying rather than just another bill on the stack. An individual who will ring them for a person plea, plus consume their time, if they don't pay as agreed.
This reminds them it's an issue and that my work continuing relies on them paying, as they agreed. I do this politely, but clearly, and conscientiously. I find this significantly increases my chances of getting paid properly.
The critical time for this is when the first, and perhaps second bills are paid. Once they are trained that yours is a bill to to pay without games, it tends to become smooth sailing.
Also, in the case where it is delayed - stop working. This is critical. If you work when they are not paying as agreed you're undermining your main leverage and will possibly have big problems.
Be polite, always, yet clear and firm about the agreements made, and be ready to walk away and find new work if necessary. Usually late payments will be resolved in days to a week and if it's taking longer then put your effort to finding new work.
This seems like a good idea. Present yourself as a business, and don't make it obvious you're a one man show (I'm not saying lie, I'm just saying watch how you present yourself).
[deleted]
I started a freelancing business in 2017 that ultimately involved me freelancing and cutting my teeth. Stuck with it and after a long struggle finally broke through. Some things I've learned:
- Passive marketing just won't work early on. That means spending time on your website, buying Google Ads etc will likely only be dead-ends until you've established yourself. (The exception might be writing niche content about some industry if you happen to know one well).
- I've used all of the freelancing platforms- Toptal, Upwork etc. You can make good money but you probably won't grow your business. Your objective if you're trying to grow a business is to scale up, and these platforms mandate that you're the one who has to do the work. I know there are Upwork firms, but I think they're worthless. Oh and Thumbtack is a scam.
- The Meetup angle didn't necessarily work for me, but I've learned that going to non-developer meetups are more fruitful, if you're willing to learn about an industry.
- The low hanging fruit in 2022 for finding clients is probably investing 15 minutes a day into building a Linkedin network (trivial and you don't need to pick up a phone :)). That means growing your connections, and learning to search for people looking for a developer for X, Y, Z, filtering out full-time hires etc.
- Actually the lowest hanging fruit is referral business, so when you get your first clients do a great job and send them emails every few months reminding them to put you in touch with anyone they know.
- When a client asks you to do something extra always say no. Always. If they're a great client, do something extra that they didn't ask for. This sounds insane, but the second you do submit to doing an extra request, a client will subconsciously discount your work and time and take it for granted. It almost never wins kudos, almost always wins more requests. I've seen this happen 35+ times. When you do something they didn't ask for, they tend to be more appreciative and touched.
- The following are essential business processes you should set up if you want to grow: task management (Github issues for me, make sure to adopt a task format with predictable attributes whatever you use), communication (Slack, invite my clients to a dedicated channel), CRM (I use Hubspot which is free for just CRM), and a project cycle.
- By project cycle I mean a contract where you're cash-flow positive, i.e. charge hourly deposits up front as much as possible, as well as defined expectations. What happens when the project finishes? How do you prevent scope creep?
- PayPal invoices are nice but they were my biggest expense, 3% of my revenue! Do ACH if possible, or Wire Transfer if the fixed fee is less than the PayPal cost. I even set up a consulting business for invoicing just because this is such a big issue [1]. But don't optimize this until it's worthwhile.
Feel free to get in touch if anyone needs any help getting established. My email is my HN username [email protected]
[1] https://receivable.dev
- Passive marketing just won't work early on. That means spending time on your website, buying Google Ads etc will likely only be dead-ends until you've established yourself. (The exception might be writing niche content about some industry if you happen to know one well).
- I've used all of the freelancing platforms- Toptal, Upwork etc. You can make good money but you probably won't grow your business. Your objective if you're trying to grow a business is to scale up, and these platforms mandate that you're the one who has to do the work. I know there are Upwork firms, but I think they're worthless. Oh and Thumbtack is a scam.
- The Meetup angle didn't necessarily work for me, but I've learned that going to non-developer meetups are more fruitful, if you're willing to learn about an industry.
- The low hanging fruit in 2022 for finding clients is probably investing 15 minutes a day into building a Linkedin network (trivial and you don't need to pick up a phone :)). That means growing your connections, and learning to search for people looking for a developer for X, Y, Z, filtering out full-time hires etc.
- Actually the lowest hanging fruit is referral business, so when you get your first clients do a great job and send them emails every few months reminding them to put you in touch with anyone they know.
- When a client asks you to do something extra always say no. Always. If they're a great client, do something extra that they didn't ask for. This sounds insane, but the second you do submit to doing an extra request, a client will subconsciously discount your work and time and take it for granted. It almost never wins kudos, almost always wins more requests. I've seen this happen 35+ times. When you do something they didn't ask for, they tend to be more appreciative and touched.
- The following are essential business processes you should set up if you want to grow: task management (Github issues for me, make sure to adopt a task format with predictable attributes whatever you use), communication (Slack, invite my clients to a dedicated channel), CRM (I use Hubspot which is free for just CRM), and a project cycle.
- By project cycle I mean a contract where you're cash-flow positive, i.e. charge hourly deposits up front as much as possible, as well as defined expectations. What happens when the project finishes? How do you prevent scope creep?
- PayPal invoices are nice but they were my biggest expense, 3% of my revenue! Do ACH if possible, or Wire Transfer if the fixed fee is less than the PayPal cost. I even set up a consulting business for invoicing just because this is such a big issue [1]. But don't optimize this until it's worthwhile.
Feel free to get in touch if anyone needs any help getting established. My email is my HN username [email protected]
[1] https://receivable.dev
I have done freelancing for many years but I prefer FT job over it. The reason is piece of mind. You don't have to worry about your financials. Running a business or SAAS business is also better
[deleted]
Has anyone had luck approaching strangers at Meetup.com meetups, as the TFA recommends? My experience has been that people mostly go to meetups with friends, to talk to their friends, and are generally averse to talking to complete strangers without some strong pre-existing connection (former classmate, colleague of spouse, etc.). I went to a few dozen tech meetups in South Bay with nothing really to show for it.
Apologies for the threadjacking but I think I did a better job writing this up a decade ago.
https://jacquesmattheij.com/be-consultant/
https://jacquesmattheij.com/be-consultant/
Shameless plug: if you found the article to be relevant for you, you might also enjoy my write-up on the same topic. 2019, but still relevant.
https://blog.classycode.com/going-freelance-as-a-software-en...
I appreciate you sharing this article here, it's very helpful!
Fire writing!
jmconfuzeus(13)
Between subcontracting from established freelancer friends and reaching out to my network I was able to get a few projects, and things were progressing nicely but then my biggest single client had some internal issues and basically didn't pay me for 6 months.
My financial situation going into freelancing was not good - I had some debt going in, and then put some incidental expenses like visiting a customer's city and staying in a (cheap and amazingly nasty) hotel for a few weeks on a credit card. The gap between invoicing the work and getting paid was too much and I realised I needed reliable cash flow.
They say the main reason businesses fail is lack of capital. Turns out starting a business with negative capital is hard. Too hard for me.