The PinePhone Pro brings upgraded hardware to the Linux phone(arstechnica.com)
arstechnica.com
The PinePhone Pro brings upgraded hardware to the Linux phone
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/01/the-pinephone-pro-brings-upgraded-hardware-to-the-linux-phone/
69 comments
Slow, short battery life, buggy. You don't want this for your daily driver.
Now, it is a fun toy to play with. PostmarketOS with SXMO is an interesting experiment and I love the idea of a pocketable linux computer with a modem. It could potentially even be a phone if people stop trying to treat it like a feature phone and accept that you are running on limited hardware and software needs to be written as such.
Now, it is a fun toy to play with. PostmarketOS with SXMO is an interesting experiment and I love the idea of a pocketable linux computer with a modem. It could potentially even be a phone if people stop trying to treat it like a feature phone and accept that you are running on limited hardware and software needs to be written as such.
I daily drive it.
>Slow
But it's fast enough. Since you can use overlapping WMs you're not stuck staring at loading screens and can use other apps while you're waiting with no time spent switching. Android is heavy. It's way worse than people realize.
>Short battery life
You can fix this by adding an extra run level that uses RTCWake to sleep the phone when it's "locked" without missing notifications. I think a number of distros have added this.
Also you can swap out batteries unlike nearly every other phone. They even sell a charger. I have three that I cycle through.
>Buggy
IME it's better than Android now. EDIT: Well, let me clarify this. You will have to tolerate some bugs, the EG-25 modem firmware is particularly bad. I use VOIP for MMS and voice because I don't trust the modem to behave. Everything else (the stuff the community actually controls) is better than Android though in my opinion.
>Slow
But it's fast enough. Since you can use overlapping WMs you're not stuck staring at loading screens and can use other apps while you're waiting with no time spent switching. Android is heavy. It's way worse than people realize.
>Short battery life
You can fix this by adding an extra run level that uses RTCWake to sleep the phone when it's "locked" without missing notifications. I think a number of distros have added this.
Also you can swap out batteries unlike nearly every other phone. They even sell a charger. I have three that I cycle through.
>Buggy
IME it's better than Android now. EDIT: Well, let me clarify this. You will have to tolerate some bugs, the EG-25 modem firmware is particularly bad. I use VOIP for MMS and voice because I don't trust the modem to behave. Everything else (the stuff the community actually controls) is better than Android though in my opinion.
>> You can fix this by adding an extra run level that uses RTCWake to sleep the phone when it's "locked" without missing notifications.
This should be part of the default configuration, because the battery life is way too short. Swapping batteries isn't a workable option for a daily driver, and besides the extra batteries have been out of stock for over a month.
This should be part of the default configuration, because the battery life is way too short. Swapping batteries isn't a workable option for a daily driver, and besides the extra batteries have been out of stock for over a month.
Fast enough?
Can it scroll the contacts list at 60 fps? Can it run youtube with hardware acceleration?
Can it scroll the contacts list at 60 fps? Can it run youtube with hardware acceleration?
Congratulations! From having purchased a
Pinephone myself and read the forums, you are probably one of a dozen people in the world able to do this. Pinephone is not yet intended or ready as a daily driver for regular users.
Does it support 5G?
It does not.
My 3G phone will soon be obsolete as 3G is being phased out in the U.S. in favor if 5G. What non-apple non-google 5G options exist?
To my knowledge, none. But I don't think 4G is going away anytime soon to be honest.
> is there another good more FOSSy phone I can turn to?
I have been using Sailfish OS from Jolla since 2014 as daily driver and only phone. It is usable as a daily driver but you can notice it doesn't have the billions of development time poured into it like Google and Apple do. It is not 100% open source, but it is real lInux with systemd, wayland, ssh as root, etcetera. I am using it now on a Sony Xperia XA2 that I bought second hand 2 years ago for 110 Euro, together with 50 Euro for Android App Support it works fine for my usecase. Before that I used the original Jolla 1 for 5 years. That device had support from Jolla from 2013 untill 2020, 7 years in total. Choosing a phone for Sailfish today, I probably would end up with a Sony Xperia 10 or Sony Xperia 10 II.
I have been using Sailfish OS from Jolla since 2014 as daily driver and only phone. It is usable as a daily driver but you can notice it doesn't have the billions of development time poured into it like Google and Apple do. It is not 100% open source, but it is real lInux with systemd, wayland, ssh as root, etcetera. I am using it now on a Sony Xperia XA2 that I bought second hand 2 years ago for 110 Euro, together with 50 Euro for Android App Support it works fine for my usecase. Before that I used the original Jolla 1 for 5 years. That device had support from Jolla from 2013 untill 2020, 7 years in total. Choosing a phone for Sailfish today, I probably would end up with a Sony Xperia 10 or Sony Xperia 10 II.
Missed your post before commenting my own recommendation below, but definitely second this!
I have been using the OG Pinephone full time for a month in the US (Mobian Phosh). I am able to use VoLTE Calls, SMS, MMS, Visual Voicemail (so all of the basic feature phone stuff works).
It is very very slow however. Firefox takes 40 (EDIT: ok more like 15-20) seconds to load, and I don't even bother to load heavy resource sites without uMatrix.
Also, battery life is not great. Screen on time is 3-4 hours, and standby time is approximately 12 hours.
It is very very slow however. Firefox takes 40 (EDIT: ok more like 15-20) seconds to load, and I don't even bother to load heavy resource sites without uMatrix.
Also, battery life is not great. Screen on time is 3-4 hours, and standby time is approximately 12 hours.
How should one interpret this (and other "it's very slow, short battery life" comments) WRT the newly released "pro" model? Are these the primary issues improved upon?
The Pinephone Pro is much faster, and I wouldn't call it "slow" at all.
However, the Pinephone Pro does not have as mature drivers/kernel/etc. as the OG Pinephone, so I think trying to compare battery life at this point is unfair, as we are comparing something folks have had lots of time to refine versus a brand new product.
However, the Pinephone Pro does not have as mature drivers/kernel/etc. as the OG Pinephone, so I think trying to compare battery life at this point is unfair, as we are comparing something folks have had lots of time to refine versus a brand new product.
>Firefox takes 40 seconds to load
You might try experimenting with different configurations. With a lightweight X11 WM on PMOS Firefox takes ~10 seconds to load cold for me (and it's closer to 4 if I've just killed it.)
You might try experimenting with different configurations. With a lightweight X11 WM on PMOS Firefox takes ~10 seconds to load cold for me (and it's closer to 4 if I've just killed it.)
Ok so maybe I exaggerated a bit (or it just feels like 40 seconds!), I just timed a couple of times, it's closer to 15-20 seconds, so not as bad.
So as a phone it works great? I just want a device that calls, and having a bit of fun with Linux is a plus for me.
I wonder if they can’t use a raspberry pi like base, since in the Pi3-4 loading Firefox is quicker by a margin.
I wonder if they can’t use a raspberry pi like base, since in the Pi3-4 loading Firefox is quicker by a margin.
> So as a phone it works great?
So far for me it has yeah. I really don't know enough about how well it works outside of the US (but many of the devs seem to be in Europe, so I imagine it works well there?) For me the biggest thing that hurts is battery life, but normally I am in areas where I can just plug it in, so it isn't a big issue. If I am out and about for a day, I just carry around a battery pack (or a spare battery).
> I wonder if they can’t use a raspberry pi like base, since in the Pi3-4 loading Firefox is quicker by a margin.
You could probably get an EG-25 USB modem and play around with it, but AFAIK no one is doing that, so you'd be largely on your own.
So far for me it has yeah. I really don't know enough about how well it works outside of the US (but many of the devs seem to be in Europe, so I imagine it works well there?) For me the biggest thing that hurts is battery life, but normally I am in areas where I can just plug it in, so it isn't a big issue. If I am out and about for a day, I just carry around a battery pack (or a spare battery).
> I wonder if they can’t use a raspberry pi like base, since in the Pi3-4 loading Firefox is quicker by a margin.
You could probably get an EG-25 USB modem and play around with it, but AFAIK no one is doing that, so you'd be largely on your own.
>You could probably get an EG-25 USB modem and play around with it, but AFAIK no one is doing that, so you'd be largely on your own.
I think a lot of the devs actually do this.
I think a lot of the devs actually do this.
AFAIK most devs cross-compile on a beefy machine then debug in the Pinephone (or have some fancy configuration to do it automatically). I personally develop/compile/debug all on phone (but I know I am an outlier in that regard).
>I wonder if they can’t use a raspberry pi like base, since in the Pi3-4 loading Firefox is quicker by a margin.
This would be a massive downgrade as far as freedom. Raspberry Pis are full of blobs. The original PinePhone uses what is basically the Pine A64 as its base. A very old and slow SBC of Pine64's (and it was right at the PinePhone's release). The PinePhone Pro uses what is basically the RockPro64 as a base, better than most if not all Raspberry Pis. The same (but slightly modified) RK3399 SoC used in their Pinebook Pro laptop.
This would be a massive downgrade as far as freedom. Raspberry Pis are full of blobs. The original PinePhone uses what is basically the Pine A64 as its base. A very old and slow SBC of Pine64's (and it was right at the PinePhone's release). The PinePhone Pro uses what is basically the RockPro64 as a base, better than most if not all Raspberry Pis. The same (but slightly modified) RK3399 SoC used in their Pinebook Pro laptop.
That is a shame in a way, I should check the benchmark on the Pro.
It can be fun to play with, but if you need a telephone, you should look elsewhere. It is a coin flip whether an incoming call or SMS will be recieved.
Just get something with LineageOS support and then flash that without gapps. That's the currently-usable solution. I do have a PinePhone and hope it continues to improve also.
Maybe even find something supported by both LineageOS and postmarketOS, like the OnePlus 6. That'll get you closer to something like a PinePhone in the same device if you so desire it.
Maybe even find something supported by both LineageOS and postmarketOS, like the OnePlus 6. That'll get you closer to something like a PinePhone in the same device if you so desire it.
LineageOS is even less secure than stock because it does not support verified boot.
And most of the distros you will run on the PinePhone (Pro) will be even less secure than LineageOS.
> If the PinePhone isn't a good choice is there another good more FOSSy phone I can turn to? I am sick of Google, and I have neither the inclination nor funds to join the apple ecosystem, anything else I could do?
Maybe have a look at the Fairphone, the last iteration seems neat, and it's compatible with several FOSS OSes (at least Android based ones, but I think other too).
Best is to use a second hand/refurbished phone: better for the planet, the price, and you can choose carefully a model compatible with the FOSS OS you would like to have.
PinePhone (Pro) is not (yet?) good as a daily driver, but it's a great platform if you want to develop for various OSes (booting on a new OS is as easy as switching SD card). With the new keyboard accessory, it's a great super small and portable computer, and the community is very active.
Maybe have a look at the Fairphone, the last iteration seems neat, and it's compatible with several FOSS OSes (at least Android based ones, but I think other too).
Best is to use a second hand/refurbished phone: better for the planet, the price, and you can choose carefully a model compatible with the FOSS OS you would like to have.
PinePhone (Pro) is not (yet?) good as a daily driver, but it's a great platform if you want to develop for various OSes (booting on a new OS is as easy as switching SD card). With the new keyboard accessory, it's a great super small and portable computer, and the community is very active.
Is the fairphone available in the US? I would have bought the FP3 in a heartbeat if it was available in the US in the summer of 2020.
Recommend checking out the SailfishOS[0] by Jolla. I have daily driven it on Xperia XA2 and XA10 II and it works "well enough" and is mostly open [1]. I have bought the OS so the phone has Android app support. This review resembles my experiences well [2].
E: I noticed that currently purchasing SailfishOS from outside ofl Europe is "prohibited" according to the purchase page. That is a bummer for non-europeans.
[0] https://sailfishos.org/
[1] https://sailfishos.org/info/
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbYPoiZh8wg&t=150
E: I noticed that currently purchasing SailfishOS from outside ofl Europe is "prohibited" according to the purchase page. That is a bummer for non-europeans.
[0] https://sailfishos.org/
[1] https://sailfishos.org/info/
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbYPoiZh8wg&t=150
I got a "beta edition" PinePhone circa Sept. 2021 that wouldn't run without locking up or resetting for more than a minute at a time. Tried a bunch of images with different memory frequency settings but no dice.
Mine was probably just a dud but it was still an expensive paperweight.
Mine was probably just a dud but it was still an expensive paperweight.
Replace it with.. a Pixel.
https://grapheneos.org/releases
https://calyxos.org/install/
https://grapheneos.org/releases
https://calyxos.org/install/
> EDIT: If the PinePhone isn't a good choice is there another good more FOSSy phone I can turn to?
There are only a few [1][2]. Pine and Purism seem to be the two main ones, in the US at least.
[1]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open-source_mobile_pho...
[2]:https://itsfoss.com/open-source-alternatives-android/
There are only a few [1][2]. Pine and Purism seem to be the two main ones, in the US at least.
[1]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open-source_mobile_pho...
[2]:https://itsfoss.com/open-source-alternatives-android/
The PinePhone doesn't have the performance, battery life, or application ecosystem to be a primary phone. LineageOS or one of the other de-googled Android distributions are worth checking out.
Do not use as a daily driver. It is a useful toy, but requires massive amounts of more development
I bought a Pinephone a few months ago. It is not ready for a daily driver. It's a dev project still. An important, crucial project, but still in dev. Others have said this as well so will end my comment here.
I really like calyxos on the pixel 5a
Wow, RK3399 is the performance option. I recall the GPU in that device being extremely slow to the point where it was quite difficult to get the inking performance in Google Keep to be acceptable instead of terrible. That was in 2016.
And now in the Year of Our Lord 2022 it's being marketed as a "pro" phone?
And now in the Year of Our Lord 2022 it's being marketed as a "pro" phone?
On the one hand, yes, it'd be nice to have faster options. On the other hand, yes, this is the best CPU that meets the constraints of the system (probably, "supports a SoC with drivers and datasheets available")
AFAIR in 2016 pnafrost was inexistent or in its infancy. Considering the epoch you're talking about, I think your problems were caused by software rendering.
Take a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKULVvGSQD8
Take a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKULVvGSQD8
I doubt it. This was on ChromeOS and I'm about 97% certain the GPU drivers were enabled.
Hmmm... That's is strange. Indeed, Hantro, the VPU hardware, only got drivers mainlined recently and we still, AFAIK, got no ffmpeg/gstreamer release using these. I'd expect more from a rk3399. I have a rockpi4 but haven't used it in a long time.
I'll consider compiling armbian to test it again. My personal experience with it is better than what I had with a raspberry pi 3.
I'll consider compiling armbian to test it again. My personal experience with it is better than what I had with a raspberry pi 3.
I think GPU performance is still continuing to improve on the software side. Most SBCs have such poor drivers that their full potential is never seen.
Linux Apps don't benefit much from the fancy GPUs unless you're running eg wayland. If you're mostly using Xterm, muPDF, Firefox etc. the GPU on the original is plenty fast.
Do these phones run mainline distros e.g. Debian? I'm thinking about getting one just for occasional ssh. Even a tty with the keyboard addon would be fine. Regular phones these days are such massive spyware that I'm not even willing to trust ssh keys inside them.
Well there are volunteer groups that add extra packages to these distros and build images for them (mobian -> debian, alarm -> arch, PMOS -> alpine.) I think a lot of it will get upstreamed to Debian (if it hasn't already.)
On mine I run PMOS configured nearly the same way I have my other computers configured (same WM and everything.)
On mine I run PMOS configured nearly the same way I have my other computers configured (same WM and everything.)
FWIW Debian can run on the pinebookpro, which uses a similar soc as the pinephonepro (rk3399 vs. rk3399s). There are a few kernel changes needed, but they might be mainlined by the next LTS.
So I would say maybe in a year or so Debian testing could run on it.
So I would say maybe in a year or so Debian testing could run on it.
https://blog.mobian-project.org/posts/2021/12/28/pinephone-p...
It’s running already (well as close as possible for mobile). But they say «in a year» it’ll be usable as a daily driver too.
It’s running already (well as close as possible for mobile). But they say «in a year» it’ll be usable as a daily driver too.
I was talking about the official Debian project, which is stringent about non-free firmware and patches to the kernel.
Mobian and Manjaro ARM are much more lenient about patching up their kernels in the name of device support (perhaps to a fault, but if the images work...).
Mobian and Manjaro ARM are much more lenient about patching up their kernels in the name of device support (perhaps to a fault, but if the images work...).
If you are interested in Debian, look at: https://mobian-project.org/
I would call it....sort of official? It isn't Debian per se, but many of the devs working on it also are working with Debian to get as much upstreamed as possible (or are affiliated with Debian proper). It also tries to use upstream Debian packages as much as possible.
I run that (and develop for it!), and I have ssh on it.
I would call it....sort of official? It isn't Debian per se, but many of the devs working on it also are working with Debian to get as much upstreamed as possible (or are affiliated with Debian proper). It also tries to use upstream Debian packages as much as possible.
I run that (and develop for it!), and I have ssh on it.
What are the critical innovations needed to get the OS usable for a non-tech person only interested in Phonecalls, SMS, and pictures?
It's pretty much all there, it just needs to be packaged.
Also most people don't like carrying a compass and road atlas like I do so the turn by turn navigation needs to work (KDE marble will stick you on a slippy map and route for you but I don't think it does real time navigation right now.)
Also most people don't like carrying a compass and road atlas like I do so the turn by turn navigation needs to work (KDE marble will stick you on a slippy map and route for you but I don't think it does real time navigation right now.)
I wonder if anyone has evaluated the possibility of porting OsmAnd for navigation.
Since html supports gps, I wonder if there are any web based turn by turn nav apps? I did a quick search and didn't turn up anything current, but a deeper dive might yield something.
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Depending on your carrier (I live in the US so I can only speak to them), Calls, MMS, SMS already work just fine.
As far as pictures....the Camera on the OG Pinephone is not great, I would not use it to take serious pictures (or I am bad at taking pictures, which may also be true!). The Pinephone Pro has a much better Camera, but so far, it does not work in software.
As far as pictures....the Camera on the OG Pinephone is not great, I would not use it to take serious pictures (or I am bad at taking pictures, which may also be true!). The Pinephone Pro has a much better Camera, but so far, it does not work in software.
I guess I'll have to wait another 5 years before going back to having a pocket computer.
It's just not ready, and won't be for a while. I guess not many people want a full blown Linux pc in their pockets. A shame really
It's just not ready, and won't be for a while. I guess not many people want a full blown Linux pc in their pockets. A shame really
I share the feeling that we have to wait but there are some form factor complications that won't go away.
Full blown Linux applications need a keyboard. Even if they are reworked as touch friendly (I think GNOME is working on that, Canonical did) when the use cases swing toward typing a lot then we need a keyboard. There are foldable keyboards that fit into a pocket but the two of them start to become bulky. They probably belong to a bag and a bag could accommodate a tablet (10" screen) plus a keyboard of that size.
If one moves between multiple houses each one equipped with monitors and keyboard, it could be OK as a low power desktop replacement. I don't think I'm able to do my work on that though. Not enough RAM. It could be OK as an emergency device, but again, so is my tablet and my Bluetooth keyboard. BTW, my tablet runs Ubuntu 16.04 in a container (same kernel as Android.) Too bad Samsung discontinued Linux for Dex.
Full blown Linux applications need a keyboard. Even if they are reworked as touch friendly (I think GNOME is working on that, Canonical did) when the use cases swing toward typing a lot then we need a keyboard. There are foldable keyboards that fit into a pocket but the two of them start to become bulky. They probably belong to a bag and a bag could accommodate a tablet (10" screen) plus a keyboard of that size.
If one moves between multiple houses each one equipped with monitors and keyboard, it could be OK as a low power desktop replacement. I don't think I'm able to do my work on that though. Not enough RAM. It could be OK as an emergency device, but again, so is my tablet and my Bluetooth keyboard. BTW, my tablet runs Ubuntu 16.04 in a container (same kernel as Android.) Too bad Samsung discontinued Linux for Dex.
Ah, but imho it's completely unrealistic to expect full blown Linux DE on a phone, in touch mode. This should not be forced on anyone
I actually think Canonical was on the right track to deliver something great. Maybe too great. Without getting into conspiracy mode, I'd say it was very unfortunate that it ended up nowhere which exactly where Mozilla did with their efforts.
I've long ago abandoned the hope of having one device do it all. It makes no sense, really. But Linux phone is possible. Having a nice UI with it is far from the main issue I think.
I actually think Canonical was on the right track to deliver something great. Maybe too great. Without getting into conspiracy mode, I'd say it was very unfortunate that it ended up nowhere which exactly where Mozilla did with their efforts.
I've long ago abandoned the hope of having one device do it all. It makes no sense, really. But Linux phone is possible. Having a nice UI with it is far from the main issue I think.
With that hardware and software even $400 seems a complete rip-off.
The CPU/RAM/storage seem roughly reasonable for that price? And in general, I'd say it's only a rip-off if its price is out of line with what it costs to make or maybe if it's out of line with anything compatible, in which case it's beating everything else by virtue of 99% of phones not having its features (kill switches, nearly-mainline kernel, non-Android distro support) and what phones do compete on features lose on price (Librem 5) or specs (non-pro Pinephone).
It looks to me like his reply is based on the assumption of using it as a daily driver and yours is more focused on it as a dev device.
For me, it's not beating everything else by virtue of 99% of phones working as daily drivers out of the box. From all I've heard elsewhere, and even in comments in this thread from owners it clearly does not pass that bar.
For me, it's not beating everything else by virtue of 99% of phones working as daily drivers out of the box. From all I've heard elsewhere, and even in comments in this thread from owners it clearly does not pass that bar.
It's never been marketed as anything but a development device. I don't think you can judge a device by holding it to a bar that it never set out to meet.
Well yes but maybe it's not so expensive if I think about it as a small desktop (and with a touch screen!) that can fit in a pocket and can be carried over between places where I have everything I need to use it. Maybe it's not even so big anymore ("160.8 x 76.6 x 11.1 mm") and so heavy ("Approx. 215 g"). Those data are from the very bottom of https://www.pine64.org/pinephonepro/
If I think about it as a phone it's heavy like a stone (hopefully everybody agrees), too large (probably I'm almost alone on this one) and too expensive.
If I think about it as a phone it's heavy like a stone (hopefully everybody agrees), too large (probably I'm almost alone on this one) and too expensive.
But you should think of it as a smartphone rather than a small desktop/laptop. That's what it's billing itself as.
As a smartphone I'd also have to carry with me an Android one. As they write in their page "If you depend on proprietary mainstream mobile messenger applications, banking applications, use loyalty or travel apps, consume DRM media, or play mobile video games on your fruit or Android smartphone, then the PinePhone Pro is likely not for you."
Furthermore I'm definitely not buying a phone that heavy.
Furthermore I'm definitely not buying a phone that heavy.
It's actually a very good price - even considering that you don't really pay for software there.
[deleted]
EDIT: If the PinePhone isn't a good choice is there another good more FOSSy phone I can turn to? I am sick of Google, and I have neither the inclination nor funds to join the apple ecosystem, anything else I could do?