Show HN: Visualization tools for bicycle wheelbuilding(islandix.com)
islandix.com
Show HN: Visualization tools for bicycle wheelbuilding
https://www.islandix.com/
103 comments
Building bicycle wheels used to be my personal zen activity many, many years ago. My brain and hands would go on autopilot mode and all manner of creative background processing would happen as a result. Tuning skis in the winter had a similar effect.
Just remembering this and writing it down here has me thinking I should pick that up again during high-stress times like the present.
This is a super cool project, OP. Very nice work.
Just remembering this and writing it down here has me thinking I should pick that up again during high-stress times like the present.
This is a super cool project, OP. Very nice work.
Have you compared wheels you made using this method with wheels made by old school methods?
If so I'm really curious what particular numbers you were chasing to determine what the 'better' wheel was. I have my own ideas on this which is why I'm interested.
If so I'm really curious what particular numbers you were chasing to determine what the 'better' wheel was. I have my own ideas on this which is why I'm interested.
I'm not sure I understand the question. Wheel Analytics augments traditional methods, for which I have great respect (and hundreds of wheelbuilds of experience). Care is taken to preserve traditional ways of working, for example the UI is controlled by foot pedal.
Its benefits reside chiefly in the process and I argue better process leads to better wheels. Wheel quality depends on knowledge, time allowed, and concern. By capturing and presenting wheel information this way, you can get the most from your knowledge and skill. By working faster, you can do a better job in the same amount of time.
Its benefits reside chiefly in the process and I argue better process leads to better wheels. Wheel quality depends on knowledge, time allowed, and concern. By capturing and presenting wheel information this way, you can get the most from your knowledge and skill. By working faster, you can do a better job in the same amount of time.
Hm. Ok. For me wheel quality is defined as durability and ability to withstand stress under use. My primary interest when it comes to building wheels where it really matters what you make in the application of tandems, in particular long distance touring bikes where you are taking your bike on a holiday, packed with gear and two adults. A bad wheel can quite literally ruin your whole day, trip or worse.
So there are some objective qualities that you could judge wheels by. Consistency is key, and knowing where the limits of the materials used are and how far away from those you are. An under-tensioned wheel is safer than an overtensioned one, the undertensioned wheel will fail gracefully, the overtensioned one will desintegrate.
If you are optimizing for speed of building that's another matter altogether, I was hoping for a clear and objective difference in quality of build.
So there are some objective qualities that you could judge wheels by. Consistency is key, and knowing where the limits of the materials used are and how far away from those you are. An under-tensioned wheel is safer than an overtensioned one, the undertensioned wheel will fail gracefully, the overtensioned one will desintegrate.
If you are optimizing for speed of building that's another matter altogether, I was hoping for a clear and objective difference in quality of build.
Undertensioned wheels will start to fail in about 1-2000k from fatigue in the j bend of the spokes. They're a lot easier to build, because spoke windup and nipple galling don't start to be an issue until you get to decent tensions.
There are three failure modes that I've seen for an over-tensioned wheel:
1) The wheel will buckle in a potato chip shape - This is generally something that will happen at build time, and can be recovered from. 2) The inner wall of the rim will pull away from the side wall. This was particularly bad with the old Mavic MA single eyelet rims, but I've seen it on at least one other rim as well, a lightweight MTB rim laced as a tandem rear. (Completely inappropriate choice of components) 3) Spokes can be improperly tightened without lubrication in the threads, causing windup which later (when unloaded under tire pressure and rolling loads) causes the pinging sound of the wheel going out of true. This is not a structural failure, but it does cause the wheel to require attention.
For the buckling limit case, the ultimate load depends on the torsional stiffness of the rim, and a few other minor factors. Box or closed section rims are much better, U shaped rims are bad. Paradoxically, thinner spokes are better, and you need to lubricate the nipple threads and the contact with the rim. I used to really like the Mavic Open4 rims with the double eyelets, but that's gone out of style now.
There are three failure modes that I've seen for an over-tensioned wheel:
1) The wheel will buckle in a potato chip shape - This is generally something that will happen at build time, and can be recovered from. 2) The inner wall of the rim will pull away from the side wall. This was particularly bad with the old Mavic MA single eyelet rims, but I've seen it on at least one other rim as well, a lightweight MTB rim laced as a tandem rear. (Completely inappropriate choice of components) 3) Spokes can be improperly tightened without lubrication in the threads, causing windup which later (when unloaded under tire pressure and rolling loads) causes the pinging sound of the wheel going out of true. This is not a structural failure, but it does cause the wheel to require attention.
For the buckling limit case, the ultimate load depends on the torsional stiffness of the rim, and a few other minor factors. Box or closed section rims are much better, U shaped rims are bad. Paradoxically, thinner spokes are better, and you need to lubricate the nipple threads and the contact with the rim. I used to really like the Mavic Open4 rims with the double eyelets, but that's gone out of style now.
> Undertensioned wheels will start to fail in about 1-2000k from fatigue in the j bend of the spokes.
Yes, I've seen a couple of those, typically mail order or equivalent bikes sold without a mechanic involved in the sales process. Guess who gets to fix them :)
> They're a lot easier to build, because spoke windup and nipple galling don't start to be an issue until you get to decent tensions.
Lubrication during build is the key I think.
> The wheel will buckle in a potato chip shape - This is generally something that will happen at build time, and can be recovered from.
Interesting, I've never seen this at build time but I've seen people that build their own wheels crash terribly because of this, so far only (fortunately) rear wheels. Just thinking about having that happen to a front wheel while on the move is enough to give me views of dentist offices.
> The inner wall of the rim will pull away from the side wall. This was particularly bad with the old Mavic MA single eyelet rims, but I've seen it on at least one other rim as well, a lightweight MTB rim laced as a tandem rear. (Completely inappropriate choice of components)
This I've never seen.
> Spokes can be improperly tightened without lubrication in the threads, causing windup which later (when unloaded under tire pressure and rolling loads) causes the pinging sound of the wheel going out of true. This is not a structural failure, but it does cause the wheel to require attention.
This is the main thing I've come across frequency wise. I suspect some manufacturers don't particularly care about what they ship as long as the customer pays and it makes it out of warranty.
> For the buckling limit case, the ultimate load depends on the torsional stiffness of the rim, and a few other minor factors. Box or closed section rims are much better, U shaped rims are bad.
Yes, logical too. Box or closed section rims can be ridiculously stiff.
> Paradoxically, thinner spokes are better, and you need to lubricate the nipple threads and the contact with the rim.
Can you explain the 'thinner spokes are better' bit? I use thicker spokes on the gear side if a cassette is very high so the wheel is almost flat on one side to get symmetrical tension, but otherwise equal on both sides and thicker for heavier loaded bikes (such as tandems). Would love to understand this bit.
> You need to lubricate the nipple threads and the contact with the rim
Yes, this is key. You won't be able to get the spokes properly tensioned if you don't do that (or you end up eating up the hole around the spoke nipple). That's a great way to ruin a rim or to end up with busted spoke nipples.
Oh, and also important: use the proper key! (not those round ones but the ones that go over and on, obviously sized exactly for the nipples you use).
Yes, I've seen a couple of those, typically mail order or equivalent bikes sold without a mechanic involved in the sales process. Guess who gets to fix them :)
> They're a lot easier to build, because spoke windup and nipple galling don't start to be an issue until you get to decent tensions.
Lubrication during build is the key I think.
> The wheel will buckle in a potato chip shape - This is generally something that will happen at build time, and can be recovered from.
Interesting, I've never seen this at build time but I've seen people that build their own wheels crash terribly because of this, so far only (fortunately) rear wheels. Just thinking about having that happen to a front wheel while on the move is enough to give me views of dentist offices.
> The inner wall of the rim will pull away from the side wall. This was particularly bad with the old Mavic MA single eyelet rims, but I've seen it on at least one other rim as well, a lightweight MTB rim laced as a tandem rear. (Completely inappropriate choice of components)
This I've never seen.
> Spokes can be improperly tightened without lubrication in the threads, causing windup which later (when unloaded under tire pressure and rolling loads) causes the pinging sound of the wheel going out of true. This is not a structural failure, but it does cause the wheel to require attention.
This is the main thing I've come across frequency wise. I suspect some manufacturers don't particularly care about what they ship as long as the customer pays and it makes it out of warranty.
> For the buckling limit case, the ultimate load depends on the torsional stiffness of the rim, and a few other minor factors. Box or closed section rims are much better, U shaped rims are bad.
Yes, logical too. Box or closed section rims can be ridiculously stiff.
> Paradoxically, thinner spokes are better, and you need to lubricate the nipple threads and the contact with the rim.
Can you explain the 'thinner spokes are better' bit? I use thicker spokes on the gear side if a cassette is very high so the wheel is almost flat on one side to get symmetrical tension, but otherwise equal on both sides and thicker for heavier loaded bikes (such as tandems). Would love to understand this bit.
> You need to lubricate the nipple threads and the contact with the rim
Yes, this is key. You won't be able to get the spokes properly tensioned if you don't do that (or you end up eating up the hole around the spoke nipple). That's a great way to ruin a rim or to end up with busted spoke nipples.
Oh, and also important: use the proper key! (not those round ones but the ones that go over and on, obviously sized exactly for the nipples you use).
> Can you explain the 'thinner spokes are better' bit?
The rim deflects inward as it contacts the ground. This is controlled by the stiffness of the rim. The deflection untensions the spoke. The cycle of tension/untension as the wheel rotates causes fatigue and also if the tension reduces to near zero allows the nipples to unwind. A thinner spoke elongates more for a given tension, so the rim deflection reduces tension proportionally less.
For example, given a thin spoke that elongates 5mm under tension, and a thick spoke that elongates 2mm, a 2mm rim deflection reduces tension 40% on the thin spoke and 100% on the thick spoke. So the thick spoke will fatigue and fail faster.
Ideally use the thinnest spokes that can deliver the desired wheel tension. This is not commonly done in cheap wheels because thin spokes have more windup and more spokes interact when truing so the build takes more time and care.
The rim deflects inward as it contacts the ground. This is controlled by the stiffness of the rim. The deflection untensions the spoke. The cycle of tension/untension as the wheel rotates causes fatigue and also if the tension reduces to near zero allows the nipples to unwind. A thinner spoke elongates more for a given tension, so the rim deflection reduces tension proportionally less.
For example, given a thin spoke that elongates 5mm under tension, and a thick spoke that elongates 2mm, a 2mm rim deflection reduces tension 40% on the thin spoke and 100% on the thick spoke. So the thick spoke will fatigue and fail faster.
Ideally use the thinnest spokes that can deliver the desired wheel tension. This is not commonly done in cheap wheels because thin spokes have more windup and more spokes interact when truing so the build takes more time and care.
I don't think I have pics of the MA, but the tandem rim looked like this: http://static.wiredfool.com/wiredfool/bigRimCrackpt.jpg
The MA had 2cm long cracks in a similar location, maybe gapped 1mm or so, at most of the drive side spokes.
The MA had 2cm long cracks in a similar location, maybe gapped 1mm or so, at most of the drive side spokes.
Wow that looks bad.
Another thing I've seen is rims with the spoke nipples pulling so hard that the rim material was flowing upwards, so you got all these little bulges (they definitely weren't designed like that, not all of the spokes had them).
Another thing I've seen is rims with the spoke nipples pulling so hard that the rim material was flowing upwards, so you got all these little bulges (they definitely weren't designed like that, not all of the spokes had them).
>An under-tensioned wheel is safer than an overtensioned one
Well...an undertensioned wheel is a recipe for broken spokes. Why not correctly tension a wheel? The correct tension is quite a lot higher than most builders go. An overtensioned wheel is not very easy to produce, at high tensions truing the wheel becomes super-critical in that tiny changes move the rim absurd amounts, and that is the point to back off.
Well...an undertensioned wheel is a recipe for broken spokes. Why not correctly tension a wheel? The correct tension is quite a lot higher than most builders go. An overtensioned wheel is not very easy to produce, at high tensions truing the wheel becomes super-critical in that tiny changes move the rim absurd amounts, and that is the point to back off.
Is it possible for spokes to gain tension while riding? My intuition says no, which would mean erring on the side of more tension would keep you in the correct range over time.
I have heard of top level downhillers using minimal spoke tension for better compliance and traction. They also have professional mechanics and piles of wheels to use for a race weekend. Meaning their wheels have to be just reliable enough to hold together for a 4 minute race run.
I have heard of top level downhillers using minimal spoke tension for better compliance and traction. They also have professional mechanics and piles of wheels to use for a race weekend. Meaning their wheels have to be just reliable enough to hold together for a 4 minute race run.
Not normally, unless you count the little bit of variation due to different thermal expansion coefficients of rim and spokes but that should not be enough to make a meaningful difference.
But they do lose tension over time, so it doesn't hurt to periodically check. That's also a good way to spot cracks in rims, which and do happen especially on bikes that are built once and then used for years.
But they do lose tension over time, so it doesn't hurt to periodically check. That's also a good way to spot cracks in rims, which and do happen especially on bikes that are built once and then used for years.
Interesting, I have stood next to a World Cup winning downhiller begging his mechanic to increase tension in his wheels beyond where the mechanic was happy so his wheels would survive longer. He thought this 'compliance' stuff was bs, and he liked that I agreed with him (hence the conversation). This was a couple of years ago mind, but I would be suprised if it had really changed.
A few years back Mike Levy from Pinkbike rode Troy Brosnan's bike and made note of how little tension was in the spokes: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/riding-troy-brosnans-world-cup....
Paul Aston (World Cup pack fill, former Pinkbike journalist) also made note of experimenting with extremely low tension and implied it worked pretty well: https://www.downtimepodcast.com/paul-aston-2021/
Really though, where you have the resources to experiment with something like spoke tension, you are likely to end up with a couple outliers.
Paul Aston (World Cup pack fill, former Pinkbike journalist) also made note of experimenting with extremely low tension and implied it worked pretty well: https://www.downtimepodcast.com/paul-aston-2021/
Really though, where you have the resources to experiment with something like spoke tension, you are likely to end up with a couple outliers.
Because this isn't math: an overtensioned wheel will break for sure, and will do so violentely, a properly tensioned wheel (which is a pretty wide range, as long as you keep the tension consistent between all spokes) will do just fine and an undertensioned wheel will eventually go out of true, which is a pretty good sign that something isn't ok. If you keep cycling after that point you only have yourself to blame.
Overtensioning is actually pretty easy, and I've seen more than one wheel respoked by novices that were overtensioned to the point that they were simply dangerous (because when one spoke goes the wheel will immediately respond and if you're unlucky it could even break).
Overtensioning is actually pretty easy, and I've seen more than one wheel respoked by novices that were overtensioned to the point that they were simply dangerous (because when one spoke goes the wheel will immediately respond and if you're unlucky it could even break).
> Because this isn't math
Not quite, but it is engineering.
> Overtensioning is actually pretty easy
Again what materials are you using? When at optimal tensions in a mtb wheel from mavic, you would already be turning really hard and in danger of damaging the nipples before overtensioning. It really is not that easy if you tensioned the wheel evenly
Not quite, but it is engineering.
> Overtensioning is actually pretty easy
Again what materials are you using? When at optimal tensions in a mtb wheel from mavic, you would already be turning really hard and in danger of damaging the nipples before overtensioning. It really is not that easy if you tensioned the wheel evenly
Engineering is to math as ideal lines between points are to sharpie marks, superficially they cover the same concepts but they're not the same. Engineers worth with safety margins (in this case: 40 to 60%), mathematicians work with ideals.
Engineers will use math to get to their solutions, and will then back off from that 'perfect' solution to give them a safety margin to take into account excursions into borderline overload, material defects and so on all balanced against costs.
Engineers will use math to get to their solutions, and will then back off from that 'perfect' solution to give them a safety margin to take into account excursions into borderline overload, material defects and so on all balanced against costs.
You are arguing the importance of appropriate spoke tension but also suggesting that measuring tension by ear is perfectly acceptable?
That does not add up to me.
That does not add up to me.
Millions of violinists would disagree.
You can go by tone to a pretty high degree of consistency.
https://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/tension.htm
You can go by tone to a pretty high degree of consistency.
https://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/tension.htm
Cool article. The pitch based measurement does seem sensible enough for some people. And more accurate then squeezing spokes with your hand.
Still, I trust my ability to read a tension meter more than my ability to match pitch. Props to anyone who feels otherwise - pitch pipes are much cheaper than good tension meters.
Still, I trust my ability to read a tension meter more than my ability to match pitch. Props to anyone who feels otherwise - pitch pipes are much cheaper than good tension meters.
What about apps that spell out the pitch for you (like guitar/instrument tuners), or even translate it directly to spoke tension?
e.g. https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/spoke-tension-gauge/id51887082...
e.g. https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/spoke-tension-gauge/id51887082...
Fantastic, I appreciate the deep visualization of multiple inputs. As a “friends and family” hobbyist mechanic who touches a handful of wheels per year Im still interested. Its a heck of a lot faster than paper notes while working through tension.
Two questions: Is there any allowance/procedure for setting the lateral center? What about detecting angle or rotation for matching tension/run out adjustments to specific spokes? I guess you could track your input values and use those to indicate direction and approximate location.
Two questions: Is there any allowance/procedure for setting the lateral center? What about detecting angle or rotation for matching tension/run out adjustments to specific spokes? I guess you could track your input values and use those to indicate direction and approximate location.
The video explainer was awesome. Even without any knowledge of bicycle wheel tuning I was able to follow. One request though, for lesser mortals, may be another video explaining why tuning a bicycle wheel is important?
Is the market for this bike shops or mechanics that can use this tool to get work done much faster(or charge more)? Or more for an enthusiast that can build a better wheel than they could without this tool?
The product is aimed at shops/mechanics that make money building wheels. Time is money so building a little faster is more profitable. Or a better result can be delivered in the same amount of time. If you like it will give you PDF output as receipts for your efforts, for example to show before and after snapshots of a wheel under repair (essentially for free). Little things like this can differentiate one service provider from another and/or help justify shop rates.
Neat project. Sorry for the off-topic question, but can you share any details about that foot pedal device? I.e. is it custom made, or something I might find on its own elsewhere? I DIYed something similar as a camera remote trigger, and it works well enough, but that simple two-pedal device would have been perfect for me.
It's a standard industrial pedal. We have a pile of them, maybe a dozen different samples. The shell is a starting point. Final manufacturing happens here where the internal wiring is completed, internal components are added, and the output cable gets installed.
This might be a dumb question but would this work for motorcycle spoked wheel truing as well?
Absolutely. Needs no changes for this application.
Marketing to motorcycle mechanics is one of my growth ideas but I'm focused on bicycle wheels for the moment because that's the niche I come from.
Marketing to motorcycle mechanics is one of my growth ideas but I'm focused on bicycle wheels for the moment because that's the niche I come from.
In the video, you keep saying "Turing" (turr-ing), when I think you mean to say "truing" (troo-ing).
He's saying it properly and isn't even remotely strange in my mind. Are you from the midwest? You might be used to the midwest accent's vowel lengthening
The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt is all I ever needed. I've built hundreds of wheels, I don't feel I need this tool. I guess if you're being really anal about it it's of value. I've used a spoke tensioner once ever, just a stand and a good feel for tension is fine. I've ridden over 60000km on my wheels, no problems.
Sure, I've built and raced my own wheels too, on my hand-built stand which just used thumbscrews for indicators.
So, and I also clicked through with a pretty skeptical attitude.
But it didn't take many seconds to say "oh, COOL!". Perhaps it is just that I now work in a field where tolerances in the thousandths of an inch are ordinary, but I would have thought this was way cool back then too.
Now, would I spend the USD$785 for it as a hobbyist? Not likely, unless I got really serious about racing again.
But if I built wheels on any more regular or professional basis, it's the first tool I'd get after the spoke wrench set and truing stand.
Of course, the first improvement I'd really want is a way to track the locations of warps on the circumference of the rim and visualize them (e.g., an angular sensor and a way to measure a starting point such as the air valve hole). I'd also want to be sure that this whole setup does not require an internet connection. Of course, I'd be happy to share data if it could create some general benefit of big data analysis and I could share in that benefit, but it'd have to be optional.
So, and I also clicked through with a pretty skeptical attitude.
But it didn't take many seconds to say "oh, COOL!". Perhaps it is just that I now work in a field where tolerances in the thousandths of an inch are ordinary, but I would have thought this was way cool back then too.
Now, would I spend the USD$785 for it as a hobbyist? Not likely, unless I got really serious about racing again.
But if I built wheels on any more regular or professional basis, it's the first tool I'd get after the spoke wrench set and truing stand.
Of course, the first improvement I'd really want is a way to track the locations of warps on the circumference of the rim and visualize them (e.g., an angular sensor and a way to measure a starting point such as the air valve hole). I'd also want to be sure that this whole setup does not require an internet connection. Of course, I'd be happy to share data if it could create some general benefit of big data analysis and I could share in that benefit, but it'd have to be optional.
I appreciate your comment. This is a B2B product and I feel comfortable the ROI is there for the right customer. Keep in mind 50% of the price pays for premium digital indicators from Mitutoyo. On the Islandix blog I explain how to source cheaper Chinese indicators for customers wanting in at a lower pricepoint.
To answer your question in the last paragraph, Wheel Analytics does not require an Internet connection. There is no phone home, no telemetry, no checking for software updates, etc. There are no cloud components that can fail or be withdrawn/changed.
To answer your question in the last paragraph, Wheel Analytics does not require an Internet connection. There is no phone home, no telemetry, no checking for software updates, etc. There are no cloud components that can fail or be withdrawn/changed.
OH COOL!! I was just skimming and didn't realize that that INCLUDED the pair of Mitutoyo digital indicators -- THAT actually makes it quite a bargain! (Do you manage to get a substantially better price buying them in bulk?)
Also excellent news about the ability to work stand-alone / no connection!
thanks!
Also excellent news about the ability to work stand-alone / no connection!
thanks!
Thumbscrews are plenty accurate enough imho. I an only interested in mountain bike wheels so... I would rather have a highly tensioned wheel than a very true wheel, and as wheels get to very high tensions they are harder to true, so it is a compromise. That's why lots of mechanics steer clear of high tensions, it its easier to go slacker.
Yes, one can get really finicky with a decent thumbscrew.
Good point on the tensioning - higher tension makes the trueing really finicky. I haven't done my Mtn Bike wheels, but my current thinking on tension is that I'd probably go with fairly tense on the rear wheel to minimize power losses, but on the slacker side in the front. High tension wheels are also much closer to catastrophic failure or folding, which I really don't want anywhere near a situation where my wheels are taking a big impact. I've also been surprised a few times how well my bike was riding after discovering that my spokes were quite slack - kind of like it creates a bit of suspension action. Just thoughts on things to try next...
Good point on the tensioning - higher tension makes the trueing really finicky. I haven't done my Mtn Bike wheels, but my current thinking on tension is that I'd probably go with fairly tense on the rear wheel to minimize power losses, but on the slacker side in the front. High tension wheels are also much closer to catastrophic failure or folding, which I really don't want anywhere near a situation where my wheels are taking a big impact. I've also been surprised a few times how well my bike was riding after discovering that my spokes were quite slack - kind of like it creates a bit of suspension action. Just thoughts on things to try next...
> High tension wheels are also much closer to catastrophic failure or folding,
Another way to look at it is that the higher tension gives more force holding the rim where it should be. Catastrophic failure or folding is a result of heavy impact, not tension. Unless you jump off buildings on your bike this should be very rare. Are you really seing these kind of failures with modern mtb rims from quality manufacturers. Even at downhill I would expect most wheels to be replaced due to denting or heavy buckling, not folding?!?
> I've also been surprised a few times how well my bike was riding after discovering that my spokes were quite slack - kind of like it creates a bit of suspension action
Interesting, I hate that feeling because loose front wheels deflect sideways in corners, which is kind of what you pay money for suspension not to do! Your money, your choice.
Another way to look at it is that the higher tension gives more force holding the rim where it should be. Catastrophic failure or folding is a result of heavy impact, not tension. Unless you jump off buildings on your bike this should be very rare. Are you really seing these kind of failures with modern mtb rims from quality manufacturers. Even at downhill I would expect most wheels to be replaced due to denting or heavy buckling, not folding?!?
> I've also been surprised a few times how well my bike was riding after discovering that my spokes were quite slack - kind of like it creates a bit of suspension action
Interesting, I hate that feeling because loose front wheels deflect sideways in corners, which is kind of what you pay money for suspension not to do! Your money, your choice.
>>Another way to look at it is that the higher tension gives more force holding the rim where it should be.
Sort of. I'm pretty sure that the situation is basically a pre-load on a spring, and the spokes are tension springs. So, yes, you pre-load a spring and it will make the mechanism stiffer upon the initial force application. But, the spring is also that much closer to it's failure limit both in available travel and available force absorbtion capacity.
What I noticed was that I've been surprised on a good number of occasions to find little noticeable deflection even when I've checked my spokes on coming home and found them looser than I expected. They aren't sloppy loose or anything, but just loose enough that a good finger squeeze of two spokes would yield a few mm of motion, instead of twanging like a piano string. And I've been lazy enough to go out after noticing that a few times before re-tensioning them, with no ill effects. Hence my thought about really tight rear, and (slightly) loose front tuning. But yeah, something to test, not just go with ;-)
The other thing that I've noticed is that one can get a wheel so tight that it will fail catastrophically if one spoke/thread/seat fails - that gap in the tension structure can cause the pull from the other spokes to be so out of balance that it'll fold the rim. Seems to be on low-spoke-count lightweight wheels. So, I'm a bit skeptical of that approach.
Sort of. I'm pretty sure that the situation is basically a pre-load on a spring, and the spokes are tension springs. So, yes, you pre-load a spring and it will make the mechanism stiffer upon the initial force application. But, the spring is also that much closer to it's failure limit both in available travel and available force absorbtion capacity.
What I noticed was that I've been surprised on a good number of occasions to find little noticeable deflection even when I've checked my spokes on coming home and found them looser than I expected. They aren't sloppy loose or anything, but just loose enough that a good finger squeeze of two spokes would yield a few mm of motion, instead of twanging like a piano string. And I've been lazy enough to go out after noticing that a few times before re-tensioning them, with no ill effects. Hence my thought about really tight rear, and (slightly) loose front tuning. But yeah, something to test, not just go with ;-)
The other thing that I've noticed is that one can get a wheel so tight that it will fail catastrophically if one spoke/thread/seat fails - that gap in the tension structure can cause the pull from the other spokes to be so out of balance that it'll fold the rim. Seems to be on low-spoke-count lightweight wheels. So, I'm a bit skeptical of that approach.
> Unless you jump off buildings on your bike this should be very rare.
That's true, but kerb impacts are pretty common when cycling a lot in traffic, especially the rear (though, intuitively I would assume that that detensions the spokes rather than that it tensions them). For the front not so much, you can usually pull up the front in time. But on a bike heavy with shopping you may not always have that luxury.
I think I understand where you are coming from: competition MTB is a pretty interesting niche and it allows you to really max out on the bike for those conditions. But it makes me wonder how long such a very tight setup would last in everyday use over 10K km / year or so. Because that's my application, I've never done any MTB / offroading and at a guess stuff breaks and gets replaced far more frequently in that setting.
That's true, but kerb impacts are pretty common when cycling a lot in traffic, especially the rear (though, intuitively I would assume that that detensions the spokes rather than that it tensions them). For the front not so much, you can usually pull up the front in time. But on a bike heavy with shopping you may not always have that luxury.
I think I understand where you are coming from: competition MTB is a pretty interesting niche and it allows you to really max out on the bike for those conditions. But it makes me wonder how long such a very tight setup would last in everyday use over 10K km / year or so. Because that's my application, I've never done any MTB / offroading and at a guess stuff breaks and gets replaced far more frequently in that setting.
we both know that there are many types of cyclists. you’re clearly one of the 95% rider 5% equipment camp, but i don’t fully agree with you wrt racing. in racing (cat 6 all the way to cat 1) these sorts if things can provide the .5% boost needed.
i guess this is more of a comment on the sort of people who would take the time to let us know how little they need help because they are so talented, when all it does is show how little they can understand others needs
i guess this is more of a comment on the sort of people who would take the time to let us know how little they need help because they are so talented, when all it does is show how little they can understand others needs
I build my own wheels too. There's another reason for these kinds of comments, which is that a lot of cyclists have been persuaded that wheelbuilding (and other kinds of bike work) is a deep philosophical mystery requiring decades of experience and a shop full of specialized tooling. Yet people have maintained their own bikes satisfactorily with basic tools for more than a century.
This happens in any technical discipline -- two people will disagree diametrically on the amount of gear and technique needed, yet achieve identical results. And nobody knows why.
So my own reaction is that equipment like this could benefit someone who is supporting competitive cyclists (including themselves), such a person knows who they are, and has already built a few wheels. But "the rest of us" sometimes just need a reassurance that much more modest tooling will get you to a satisfactory wheel that will last a long time. Likewise for routine periodic maintenance such as tensioning and truing. My goal is decent truth, zero spoke breakage, minimal re-truing later on.
This happens in any technical discipline -- two people will disagree diametrically on the amount of gear and technique needed, yet achieve identical results. And nobody knows why.
So my own reaction is that equipment like this could benefit someone who is supporting competitive cyclists (including themselves), such a person knows who they are, and has already built a few wheels. But "the rest of us" sometimes just need a reassurance that much more modest tooling will get you to a satisfactory wheel that will last a long time. Likewise for routine periodic maintenance such as tensioning and truing. My goal is decent truth, zero spoke breakage, minimal re-truing later on.
Yeah, for Pro mechanics who are paid to build the absolute best, yes perhaps it's useful. But for the rest of us, nah.
Even then I doubt it. The best wheelbuilders are the tradional ones.
Here is a fantastic, compact and very much to the point guide on how to spoke wheels (in dutch, google translate is your friend):
http://www.m-gineering.nl/techdex.htm
Here is a fantastic, compact and very much to the point guide on how to spoke wheels (in dutch, google translate is your friend):
http://www.m-gineering.nl/techdex.htm
Likewise violin makers.
I wonder if the common thread is that these activities require a high level of skill but don't pay very well and are tiny markets, so there's no way to do the R&D needed to automate production.
I wonder if the common thread is that these activities require a high level of skill but don't pay very well and are tiny markets, so there's no way to do the R&D needed to automate production.
There exist automatic wheel spoking machines, typically used for mass produced bikes. If I buy a new bike the first thing I do is check the spoke tension because for sure it will be a huge mess. The next is to check the fork bearings because those will usually be too tight (you can feel the individual balls) or too loose (a clicking sound when you hold the front brake and rock the bike back and forth). The joke here is that when you buy a bike it's more work than building one yourself because you first have to take it apart again. That's obviously not true but I've seen some pretty bad stuff come out of factories (brand names too...).
One recent weird thing on a brand new bike was a set of spokes that had the inside and the outside exchanged leading to all of the spokes rubbing gaps in each other. I still wonder what the story was about that one, it makes absolutely no sense at all that an error like that would be made in a mass produced bike and no sane bike mechanic would spoke a wheel like that.
One recent weird thing on a brand new bike was a set of spokes that had the inside and the outside exchanged leading to all of the spokes rubbing gaps in each other. I still wonder what the story was about that one, it makes absolutely no sense at all that an error like that would be made in a mass produced bike and no sane bike mechanic would spoke a wheel like that.
I've seen videos of wheel making "by machine." There is still some manual work, such as part or even all of lacing. If a wheel is laced "off," then it's pretty much downhill from there.
By day I'm an industrial physicist, and I've designed systems for doing automated mechanical adjustment. There's an 80/20 rule, where tightening the specs can dramatically increase the cycle time. So, you can make more widgets per hour if you relax the specs.
By day I'm an industrial physicist, and I've designed systems for doing automated mechanical adjustment. There's an 80/20 rule, where tightening the specs can dramatically increase the cycle time. So, you can make more widgets per hour if you relax the specs.
I remember taking a bike maintenance class where the instructor said that mechanical wheelbuilding has not reached the level of quality of hand wheelbuilding (maybe he even said "has not approached").
Since this part of the thread is kind of about that question, I would like to ask: how come? Isn't machines' consistency something that could be very useful here? And if not, couldn't tools like the one presented by the original post help the machines reach a high standard?
Since this part of the thread is kind of about that question, I would like to ask: how come? Isn't machines' consistency something that could be very useful here? And if not, couldn't tools like the one presented by the original post help the machines reach a high standard?
I raced my hand built wheels on tour divide. They didn't explode, unlike a lot of people with overpriced wheels from "specialists". Granted, tour divide is the extreme end of endurance though.
I've seen more than one overtensioned bikewheel completely lose it, especially wheels with reduced numbers of spokes should be tensioned 'just so', too tight and you're waiting for a wheel failure, which if it is your front wheel at speed could very well land you in the hospital or even kill you.
Given that Jobst Brandt was ... opinionated about tensiometers, I'd disagree. (well, he was opinionated about most everything)
I think he'd like this system, as it provides a faster way to properly build up a wheel with well balanced, proper tension. The recording options would be welcomed as documentation of the wheel build.
I think he'd like this system, as it provides a faster way to properly build up a wheel with well balanced, proper tension. The recording options would be welcomed as documentation of the wheel build.
I like to think Brandt would approve. But he would probably have some thoughts and not spare my feelings haha.
Thanks for your contributions about wheels elsewhere in this thread (I've restricted my comments to the tooling). You demonstrate knowledge that is uncommon even among people paid to work on wheels.
Thanks for your contributions about wheels elsewhere in this thread (I've restricted my comments to the tooling). You demonstrate knowledge that is uncommon even among people paid to work on wheels.
Thanks, I appreciate the recognition. When I was doing my masters in Civil/Structural (with a big side of FEA), I was somewhat obsessed with understanding bike wheels, as far as I could. Even spent a couple weeks while procrastinating on my project doing basically nothing but looking at old books (Theory of Elastic Stability, Timeshenko and Gere) and writing FEA model generators for wheels. Between that, a basic understanding from rec.bicycles.tech (including Brandt), his book, and wheel builds, I think I got there.
And now I've found the _archive_ of Jobst and r.b.t. https://yarchive.net/bike/index.html
And I'm sure that's only a portion of what he posted.
And I'm sure that's only a portion of what he posted.
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It's been years since I built a wheel, but this seems useful for just truing up a wheel after it gets beat up. Very cool, I would've loved to have this setup when I worked in a shop.
And I just saw the price. Holy.
As someone who has never built a wheel but as someone who has spent hundreds of dollars getting a wheel trued only to have it go out of true a month later, I can understand this price.
It's easy to make (or buy) a shitty wheel, but if you commute on a bike, you need to invest in well built wheels
It's easy to make (or buy) a shitty wheel, but if you commute on a bike, you need to invest in well built wheels
> As someone who has never built a wheel but as someone who has spent hundreds of dollars getting a wheel trued up
That sounds like you were ripped off. It isn't hard to do and it isn't hard to do right. It takes very little in terms of investment in tools (the most important thing is a stable stand so you can rotate the wheel, an old fork with a guide attached will do fine for this, and a $15 hardened spoke key).
That sounds like you were ripped off. It isn't hard to do and it isn't hard to do right. It takes very little in terms of investment in tools (the most important thing is a stable stand so you can rotate the wheel, an old fork with a guide attached will do fine for this, and a $15 hardened spoke key).
An issue with wheels is that bringing them up to correct tension takes time, even if someone or something is guiding the process. If the wheel is going out of true, then it wasn't properly tensioned. In that case, a machine isn't going to motivate a shop to do a better job. Deming said: "Quality control is a management problem."
According to fairly widespread bike folklore (i.e., in the absence of real stats), machine built wheels tend to start out with insufficient tension. Correcting that one issue will result in a more stable and longer lasting wheel. I've seen this on two bikes in my family's fleet, both were new from bike shops, and of reputable brands. Our oldest bikes, with hand made wheels, have stayed put for decades.
According to fairly widespread bike folklore (i.e., in the absence of real stats), machine built wheels tend to start out with insufficient tension. Correcting that one issue will result in a more stable and longer lasting wheel. I've seen this on two bikes in my family's fleet, both were new from bike shops, and of reputable brands. Our oldest bikes, with hand made wheels, have stayed put for decades.
Spokes can and do stretch differently over time due to manufacturing variance. Checking your wheel periodically by strumming the spokes can help identify spokes that have stretched unevenly compared to the rest. Typically you'll find the opposing spoke to also have lost some tension and probably one or two spokes earlier and later.
Spokes coming loose over time can be caused by lack of stress relieving. This is where there is some twist in the spoke due to friction between the nipple and rim. This is where handbuilt wheels have an advantage
To be a little more specific, you're conflating two things here.
1) Stress relieving is tensioning the spokes by grabbing pairs and squeezing them. This takes a elastic bending moment in the j-bend and over-stresses it into plastic deformation, permanently changing the shape of the spoke. When relaxed from the stress relieving, the spoke is bent differently, and the stress in the spoke is more uniform with less of a bending moment. (bending moments lead to a compressive stress on one side and tension on the other, superimposed over the tension of the spoke. If the compressive side of the spoke winds up with an actual stress reversal on every wheel revolution, it will start to crack and fail in O(1e6) cycles, or 2000km). Due to the overstress here, this also beds the spoke into the hub.
2) Windup comes from the spoke being a long torsional spring. There's friction between the spoke threads and the nipple, and if the threads aren't lubricated, the friction is enough to twist the spoke instead of tightening the thread. You'll still see some of this with thinner spokes and higher tension, but you can back off a bit on each adjustment and make sure that the spoke isn't twisted before going on. This windup causes the pinging when a new wheel is used for the first time, and each spoke is somewhat unloaded when it's at the bottom of the rotation. This reduces the friction in the threads, and the spoke springs back, changing it's total length.
Incidentally, the highest compression in the rim and highest tension ever in the spokes is in the stress relieving step of wheel building. This is where a super tensioned wheel will potato chip buckle if it's going to. Adding a tire and air pressure reduces the spoke tension. When riding, the bottom ~4ish spokes detension somewhat (depends on the spoke count, numbers are for old school 32ish/ 700c not terribly deep rims).
1) Stress relieving is tensioning the spokes by grabbing pairs and squeezing them. This takes a elastic bending moment in the j-bend and over-stresses it into plastic deformation, permanently changing the shape of the spoke. When relaxed from the stress relieving, the spoke is bent differently, and the stress in the spoke is more uniform with less of a bending moment. (bending moments lead to a compressive stress on one side and tension on the other, superimposed over the tension of the spoke. If the compressive side of the spoke winds up with an actual stress reversal on every wheel revolution, it will start to crack and fail in O(1e6) cycles, or 2000km). Due to the overstress here, this also beds the spoke into the hub.
2) Windup comes from the spoke being a long torsional spring. There's friction between the spoke threads and the nipple, and if the threads aren't lubricated, the friction is enough to twist the spoke instead of tightening the thread. You'll still see some of this with thinner spokes and higher tension, but you can back off a bit on each adjustment and make sure that the spoke isn't twisted before going on. This windup causes the pinging when a new wheel is used for the first time, and each spoke is somewhat unloaded when it's at the bottom of the rotation. This reduces the friction in the threads, and the spoke springs back, changing it's total length.
Incidentally, the highest compression in the rim and highest tension ever in the spokes is in the stress relieving step of wheel building. This is where a super tensioned wheel will potato chip buckle if it's going to. Adding a tire and air pressure reduces the spoke tension. When riding, the bottom ~4ish spokes detension somewhat (depends on the spoke count, numbers are for old school 32ish/ 700c not terribly deep rims).
I wasn't conflating two things, it appears my stress relieval procedure has more steps than yours. For your part 2 (in addition to what you said for part 1) I also used to grab the wheel with one side against my belly, forarms across the rim edge, so elbows at 3 and 9 oclock and hands at 12. Then I would push my elbows down to get the pinging sound you described, and then rotate a quarter turn and repeat. Then turn over and do the same. When it stopped I would retrue the wheel and do it again. If you don't do this you get the pinging you described on your first ride and a therefore a wonky wheel.
I believe this is one of the important steps in making a wheel stay true and not need trueing after one ride. This is described better in the Art of Wheelbuilding if you want to try it.
I believe this is one of the important steps in making a wheel stay true and not need trueing after one ride. This is described better in the Art of Wheelbuilding if you want to try it.
All good stuff this, thank you! Some of it I knew intuitively but not good enough to really understand, let alone explain it to others.
The tire and air pressure thing is perfectly logical and anybody can demonstrate this, as you pump up the tire the spoke pitch goes down.
The tire and air pressure thing is perfectly logical and anybody can demonstrate this, as you pump up the tire the spoke pitch goes down.
Yes, as well as the spoke end becoming embedded, stretch and the spoke nipple becoming embedded (typically: harder spoke nipples vs aluminum wheels). So make sure when you get a new bike to check this after your first couple of rides and then again after 6 weeks or so when more subtle effects start to kick in.
What (specific) type of deformation are you seeing? Elastic deformation, plastic deformation, or creep?
Elastic deformation is not a time dependent property, and should be the regime in which the wheel is operating.
Plastic deformation is (also not time dependent) where you have gone beyond the yield point of the material, and have permanently changed the shape, even after unloading the part. All of the plastic deformation of wheel components should happen at build time.
Creep is when a constant load causes additional time dependent strain. There shouldn't be anything in a wheel that creeps, but it's possible that some plastics or epoxy/composites could creep.
Elastic deformation is not a time dependent property, and should be the regime in which the wheel is operating.
Plastic deformation is (also not time dependent) where you have gone beyond the yield point of the material, and have permanently changed the shape, even after unloading the part. All of the plastic deformation of wheel components should happen at build time.
Creep is when a constant load causes additional time dependent strain. There shouldn't be anything in a wheel that creeps, but it's possible that some plastics or epoxy/composites could creep.
> All of the plastic deformation of wheel components should happen at build time.
I suspect this is true, except that parts being what they are (always with small inconsistencies) and the spoke nipples riding inside the rim and j bends in the spokes riding inside the holes in the hub tend to 'find their spot' after being exercised for a while. I've made it a pretty hard rule to re-check after 6 weeks and invariably something has shifted. This probably indicates that my wheel building technique could be better, then again, I've never had a wheel that I built fail - so far - and over the years have done between 100 and 200, some of them for very heavily loaded bikes (tandem trekking bikes).
Most recent wheel was actually this weekend, I'll be sure to give it another really good look to see if I missed something that might cause this which I can catch at an earlier stage.
My typical wheels: double walled aluminum rims, quality spokes and nipples (and the latter seem to be hit-and-miss, I've had bad batches of nipples more than once in spite of re-ordering the exact same kind, but I noticed it immediately during assembly), typically Shimano hubs.
I suspect this is true, except that parts being what they are (always with small inconsistencies) and the spoke nipples riding inside the rim and j bends in the spokes riding inside the holes in the hub tend to 'find their spot' after being exercised for a while. I've made it a pretty hard rule to re-check after 6 weeks and invariably something has shifted. This probably indicates that my wheel building technique could be better, then again, I've never had a wheel that I built fail - so far - and over the years have done between 100 and 200, some of them for very heavily loaded bikes (tandem trekking bikes).
Most recent wheel was actually this weekend, I'll be sure to give it another really good look to see if I missed something that might cause this which I can catch at an earlier stage.
My typical wheels: double walled aluminum rims, quality spokes and nipples (and the latter seem to be hit-and-miss, I've had bad batches of nipples more than once in spite of re-ordering the exact same kind, but I noticed it immediately during assembly), typically Shimano hubs.
I have to admit that my stress relieving method is pretty much ad hoc. I take the wheel off the stand a couple times and press the axle against the floor. I grab the spokes and squeeze. I pluck the spokes and listen.
Usually I put the wheel back on the stand after a week or two of riding. A really good builder shouldn't need to do this, but part of this whole exercise is to evaluate and improve my skills as I build more wheels. And I'm not building racing wheels, but trying to do the best possible job is part of the learning process.
Usually I put the wheel back on the stand after a week or two of riding. A really good builder shouldn't need to do this, but part of this whole exercise is to evaluate and improve my skills as I build more wheels. And I'm not building racing wheels, but trying to do the best possible job is part of the learning process.
Pretty similar here. And I trust my own wheel building skills more than the kid at the bikestore (and once upon a time I was that kid... respoking wheels and patching tires for pocket money).
I have never had these kind of problems with dtswiss spokes and nipples and quality rims. Handbuilding is so labour intensive why would you compromise on materials like this?
Interesting. I've had this happen even with good materials and I totally agree that compromising on materials makes no sense. Even so, it doesn't hurt to check things periodically so they don't sneak up on you.
I recently re-spoked my s-pedelec because I didn't like the spoke brand and nipples used, that thing is too heavy and too fast to take any chances with.
I recently re-spoked my s-pedelec because I didn't like the spoke brand and nipples used, that thing is too heavy and too fast to take any chances with.
Would be nice if spoke tension is also measured and recorded. Spoke tension is a very important factor building robust wheels.
That's one of the features. Live Tensio, one visualization in Wheel Analytics, shows live tension as you introduce your tensiometer to the wheel. A live reading can be recorded by pressing the foot pedal. Tension distribution is then presented in bar graph form along with min/max/avg. A printable version can be generated for record keeping or sharing with customers for marketing purposes.
You are 100% right that tension is a critical wheel dimension.
You are 100% right that tension is a critical wheel dimension.
Ah, I see now. Only saw first intro movie.
Interesting tool, although I`m not a wheel builder. Its a real craftsmanship ;)
Interesting tool, although I`m not a wheel builder. Its a real craftsmanship ;)
Strum the spokes and listen. That's a very easy way to get your spokes within a very small margin of error tensioned accurately.
It is a way to get them consistent very easily, but getting them to an optimum tension is hard to define.
The optimum is very much dependent on the materials used (steel wheel, aluminum wheel, single or multiple layers, the kind of spoke nipple used, the spoke thickness, the number of spokes, the shape of the spokes, the length of the spoke and so on). If you don't know exactly what you are doing I would stay away from the optimum and simply play it safe, it doesn't really pay to find that you over estimated one or more of the parts. Overtensioning is much more dangerous than undertensioning, what is far more important is that you tension the spokes evenly, and if you have asymmetric spokes (for instance: most rear wheels) that you tighten the shorter side a little bit more. Consistency is key.
I can't agree. According to the legendary 'Art of wheelbuilding' by Gerd Schraner (and promoted by dtswiss spokes) slack wheels are a recipe for broken spokes. I have heard what you said repeated by many 'old time' mechanics, but the evidence from dtswiss is that all wheels should be tightened to the maximum tension the rim can support. I certainly always did this with my mountain bike wheels when I was a downhill racer and the pro riders I knew agreed. I never had a catastrophic failure and my wheels were maxed out using the method in the book already mentioned
There is a big difference between 'not overtensioned' vs 'slack'. Obviously the latter is going to get you in trouble. But simply don't overdo it, err on the side of caution and don't try to go for maximum tension before things break unless you really know what you are doing. Because they will break if you are not 100% certain that you are still under the limit.
I think the big difference between your use case and mine is simply that I don't have the luxury of rebuilding my wheels every three weeks but they have to last for years. I'm sure that if you treat them as disposables that you can get much closer to the limit, but the bike shop where I worked built ordinary bikes for ordinary people, and then long term reliability is far more important than to squeeze the last little bit of stiffness out of a wheel, though I can see that even in that case there might be some gain from being able to do that.
Keep in mind that this was - and in many places still is - a pretty low tech affair and broken spokes on a bike through normal use on a properly maintained bike in principle should not happen. Usually that indicates that either something got abused, badly mounted or left without maintenance for too long.
I think the big difference between your use case and mine is simply that I don't have the luxury of rebuilding my wheels every three weeks but they have to last for years. I'm sure that if you treat them as disposables that you can get much closer to the limit, but the bike shop where I worked built ordinary bikes for ordinary people, and then long term reliability is far more important than to squeeze the last little bit of stiffness out of a wheel, though I can see that even in that case there might be some gain from being able to do that.
Keep in mind that this was - and in many places still is - a pretty low tech affair and broken spokes on a bike through normal use on a properly maintained bike in principle should not happen. Usually that indicates that either something got abused, badly mounted or left without maintenance for too long.
Unless the spokes go slack, the tension does not affect the stiffness of the wheel. Properly functioning wheels operate in the linear elastic region.
Higher tension is related to higher ultimate load capacity and better fatigue resistance.
Higher tension is related to higher ultimate load capacity and better fatigue resistance.
> Unless the spokes go slack, the tension does not affect the stiffness of the wheel.
Sure, but when they go slack you've lost the plot somewhere along the line. That should - in principle - never happen.
> Properly functioning wheels operate in the linear elastic region.
Yes, more simply put: they are non-deforming springs.
> Higher tension is related to higher ultimate load capacity and better fatigue resistance.
Up to a point!
Sure, but when they go slack you've lost the plot somewhere along the line. That should - in principle - never happen.
> Properly functioning wheels operate in the linear elastic region.
Yes, more simply put: they are non-deforming springs.
> Higher tension is related to higher ultimate load capacity and better fatigue resistance.
Up to a point!
Very interesting! The one-minute videos are really clear, and the interface simple and brilliant, and I went from someone knowing very little about the system to someone thinking "if I built wheels for a living, I would definitely use something like this"!
No videos on Firefox Android. I'll check on desktop later today or tomorrow, if I don't forget about it. It was really strange not to see even a single picture on the home page.
Works fine on Firefox here, both Android and Desktop.
Thank you. I went to the web site again and finally noticed the button to touch to popup the videos. Maybe I've been the only one to miss it but I feel that an important video should be embedded directly in the home page, possibly with no autoplay.
Would this be suitable for mountain bike wheels?
I don’t see any reason why it wouldn’t be, just asking the dumb question. Plus this seems really valuable for mountain bikers, especially if you’re into downhill or enduro style riding where knocking a wheel out of true is a regular occurrence.
I don’t see any reason why it wouldn’t be, just asking the dumb question. Plus this seems really valuable for mountain bikers, especially if you’re into downhill or enduro style riding where knocking a wheel out of true is a regular occurrence.
Good for spoked wheels of every type. The speedup factor for repairs is one of the main benefits. The display highlights the most deviant parts of the wheel and shows these deviations in the context of the whole wheel. Mechanics can use the tool to take before-and-after snapshots (essentially for free), which can be helpful on the customer interaction side.
i think I'll still with the sheldon method, built countless amounts of wheels and never needed or thought i needed to add unnecessary tech to what is such a simple job
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I don't understand. There are numbers on those digital indicators, why do I need black box, LCD and $100 computer?
A naked indicator shows alignment at a single point. Wheel Analytics puts this number in context by relating it to the readings for every point on the wheel and adds analysis to help improve alignment.
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I wrote my thesis about lacing patterns for spokes on a bicycle wheel [0] after trying to build my own wheel and experiencing how difficult it can be. Simple in theory, hard to master. Really cool to see some tech reaching this space.
I think for most people this isn't needed (I don't even own a proper truing stand, just spinning my wheels while mounted somewhere), but for those building wheels daily (manufacturers, specialty shops) it can be a nice addition.
What I like about is that it doesn't replace the knowledge or process. Just enhances it. So one can do as before, but probably faster thanks to the additional info.
[0]: Discussed here at the time https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10410813
I think for most people this isn't needed (I don't even own a proper truing stand, just spinning my wheels while mounted somewhere), but for those building wheels daily (manufacturers, specialty shops) it can be a nice addition.
What I like about is that it doesn't replace the knowledge or process. Just enhances it. So one can do as before, but probably faster thanks to the additional info.
[0]: Discussed here at the time https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10410813
Very much on point. Wheel Analytics is designed to supercharge skills rather than replace them.
I'm a bicycle mechanic that figured I could make the process of bicycle wheelbuilding faster, more accurate and more satisfying. I do it by sampling digital indicators, rendering the data in useful ways, and injecting domain-specific insights. The UI interaction happens by foot pedal so my paradigm retains the traditional way of working with your hands.