Where in EU would you relocate?
25 comments
I can tell you that having a small kid in Germany is a pain, as kindergartens can be hard to get into. Also, the country is stuck in the 80s when it comes to bureaucracy and digitalization. Depending on where you live, you may find it difficult to have friends and adapt - the West/North being much more accepting than the South/East. This is not to say that Germany is a bad option, but it is a weird country that takes some effort to live in as a foreigner.
I haven't lived in the UK or Switzerland, but if you have an option to be anywhere in Europe, you might want to consider Denmark. Copenhagen is very beautiful and a delight to live in, and public services are all top notch. Other options I would personally consider are Netherlands, Belgium and Portugal, but I haven't lived there as well.
I haven't lived in the UK or Switzerland, but if you have an option to be anywhere in Europe, you might want to consider Denmark. Copenhagen is very beautiful and a delight to live in, and public services are all top notch. Other options I would personally consider are Netherlands, Belgium and Portugal, but I haven't lived there as well.
Finding a Kita spot in Germany, especially in Berlin, can be hard because Kita is free, but the alternative is that one person sacrifices their career in Switzerland because the childcare costs are so high. You can make your own decision.
If its a company starting with G, they are one of the highest-paying employers in Switzerland. That would be my pick, with the following pros and cons:
Pros:
- Great outdoors activities all year round.
- Beautiful country, every few meters you can snap a postcard-perfect picture.
- Low taxes, decent public services. Not as good as Germany if you need public assistance or want to have children.
- Zero taxes on capital gains when you satisfy long-term investor criteria.
Cons:
- People are insular and somewhat closed-minded.
- Politics can lean towards the right.
- Citizenship is harder to get both for yourself and your children even if they are born in Switzerland.
- Language is hard. Harder than Germany I would say, unless you speak French and are living in Romandie, because Swiss German is a dialect and not taught in schools and courses the way Hochdeutsch is.
- Having children and buying property is more expensive here in absolute terms, although manageable on a FAANG salary.
- Less maternity & paternity leave. Germany is the best in that regard unless comparing to Scandinavian countries.
I personally live in Germany and am looking at moving to Switzerland for the pros I mentioned.
Addendum: If you only speak English, Berlin is your best bet between all the cities in Germany and Switzerland.
Pros:
- Great outdoors activities all year round.
- Beautiful country, every few meters you can snap a postcard-perfect picture.
- Low taxes, decent public services. Not as good as Germany if you need public assistance or want to have children.
- Zero taxes on capital gains when you satisfy long-term investor criteria.
Cons:
- People are insular and somewhat closed-minded.
- Politics can lean towards the right.
- Citizenship is harder to get both for yourself and your children even if they are born in Switzerland.
- Language is hard. Harder than Germany I would say, unless you speak French and are living in Romandie, because Swiss German is a dialect and not taught in schools and courses the way Hochdeutsch is.
- Having children and buying property is more expensive here in absolute terms, although manageable on a FAANG salary.
- Less maternity & paternity leave. Germany is the best in that regard unless comparing to Scandinavian countries.
I personally live in Germany and am looking at moving to Switzerland for the pros I mentioned.
Addendum: If you only speak English, Berlin is your best bet between all the cities in Germany and Switzerland.
Sweden might be an interesting alternative. The language is quite a bit easier to learn than German, social security works rather well and the cost of living is not that much higher than in Germany if you don’t move to Stockholm (I’m a German living and working in Sweden, but will go back to Germany later this year). Of course, you have to like winters…
Depends on how much you make.
UK (London) offers the best quality of life if you have tons of money to spend.
Germany is fine if you don’t have much money to spend. Don’t expect to find any luxury though.
Switzerland is great if you have tons of money to spend and don’t want to live in a big city.
Brexit has been utterly irrelevant to wealthy people, in fact it seems to have made some luxury goods cheaper.
UK (London) offers the best quality of life if you have tons of money to spend.
Germany is fine if you don’t have much money to spend. Don’t expect to find any luxury though.
Switzerland is great if you have tons of money to spend and don’t want to live in a big city.
Brexit has been utterly irrelevant to wealthy people, in fact it seems to have made some luxury goods cheaper.
I personally would choose somewhere in southern EU like Portugal, Spain, or Italy. Better weather and I think lower cost of living - assuming her salary is same in any EU country and they aren't pro-rating it.
You will most likely have to supplement any education for your child anyhow (to educate them on English and American things), I wouldn't focus too much on that being a deciding factor. As much as there are different areas in the US, the culture is very similar. I imagine being a road trip away from the language and culture of another country will provide more perspective and opportunities for education than you could get here in the US.
Maybe the company can offer up ex-pats in your top 3 countries that she can talk to for an idea on what its like?
You will most likely have to supplement any education for your child anyhow (to educate them on English and American things), I wouldn't focus too much on that being a deciding factor. As much as there are different areas in the US, the culture is very similar. I imagine being a road trip away from the language and culture of another country will provide more perspective and opportunities for education than you could get here in the US.
Maybe the company can offer up ex-pats in your top 3 countries that she can talk to for an idea on what its like?
If your requirement is the EU (and not merely Europe) ... I've heard the best things about the Nordic countries (especially Sweden) and Cyprus
Switzerland isn't a member of the EU (https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/countries-in-europe/eu-coun...) - but the folks I' know who've lived there liked it (minus cost of living)
I've also heard good things about Iceland - but, again, they're not an EU member nation
Switzerland isn't a member of the EU (https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/countries-in-europe/eu-coun...) - but the folks I' know who've lived there liked it (minus cost of living)
I've also heard good things about Iceland - but, again, they're not an EU member nation
Big cities in Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, UK, Ireland are all great. Especially if you aren't white. Too much right wing politics in France and Switzerland.
You can live very well in all of those countries. Furthermore, the quality of life can vary greatly between subregions. It all depends on what you value in life, and without that we’re left with a very broad and vague question.
If I had the choice I would go for Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, the Netherlands, or Denmark. All have fantastic living standards by almost any metric, and given that it’s a FAANG job I’m sure cost won’t be as much of an issue.
If I had the choice I would go for Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, the Netherlands, or Denmark. All have fantastic living standards by almost any metric, and given that it’s a FAANG job I’m sure cost won’t be as much of an issue.
Salaries in Switzerland are significantly higher so you may end up better off, even taking cost of living into account. On the other hand, if you think the German language is on the negative side then you should avoid Swiss German speaking areas (Swiss German is its own thing...)
I am not sure Brexit makes much difference unless you are EU citizens. Note that London is its own bubble so it would also depend on where in the UK you would be moving to.
I am not sure Brexit makes much difference unless you are EU citizens. Note that London is its own bubble so it would also depend on where in the UK you would be moving to.
> I am not sure Brexit makes much difference unless you are EU citizens.
As an EU citizen living in the UK I haven’t really noticed it making any difference.
Well, stuff on farfetch seems to have gotten cheaper after brexit. Definitely won’t complain about that.
As an EU citizen living in the UK I haven’t really noticed it making any difference.
Well, stuff on farfetch seems to have gotten cheaper after brexit. Definitely won’t complain about that.
What I mean is the impact of Brexit when deciding to move to the UK vs. EU/EEA/Switzerland. If you are an EU (non-Irish) citizen then now there are hoops to go through and your status in the UK is less secure than before.
But for EU citizens who have been in the UK for years then indeed nothing changed.
But for EU citizens who have been in the UK for years then indeed nothing changed.
Of those three? Germany, hands down.
I've visited Germany and the UK a dozen or so times each, back in my international traveling consulting days. (Though only three times to Switzerland, for short visits - not enough to say much.)
German is not so difficult and many Germans speak English. I've had several English/non-German-speaking friends move there. And if your wife is working with a large company, they'll be able to help with the transition and government bureaucracy. Plus, she'll have plenty of co-workers who have done the same thing.
Germany also has good public services. There's more support for walkable/bikeable living than the UK.
Beyond that though really requires knowing more of your preferences. Friends of mine living in the UK didn't like sending their kids to gender-separated schools. I don't like the UK's privatization policies, nor its class system.
While my political and other persona views seem more aligned with German ones.
I can't help but wonder if, during those "international traveling consulting days", had a long-term contract in Germany, I might be living there now.
I've visited Germany and the UK a dozen or so times each, back in my international traveling consulting days. (Though only three times to Switzerland, for short visits - not enough to say much.)
German is not so difficult and many Germans speak English. I've had several English/non-German-speaking friends move there. And if your wife is working with a large company, they'll be able to help with the transition and government bureaucracy. Plus, she'll have plenty of co-workers who have done the same thing.
Germany also has good public services. There's more support for walkable/bikeable living than the UK.
Beyond that though really requires knowing more of your preferences. Friends of mine living in the UK didn't like sending their kids to gender-separated schools. I don't like the UK's privatization policies, nor its class system.
While my political and other persona views seem more aligned with German ones.
I can't help but wonder if, during those "international traveling consulting days", had a long-term contract in Germany, I might be living there now.
> Germany also has good public services. There's more support for walkable/bikeable living than the UK.
Are you joking? Surely he speaks of London when he speaks of FAANG jobs in the UK. This is a far more walkable/bikeable city than most German cities.
> Friends of mine living in the UK didn't like sending their kids to gender-separated schools
There are a plenty of co-ed schools.
Are you joking? Surely he speaks of London when he speaks of FAANG jobs in the UK. This is a far more walkable/bikeable city than most German cities.
> Friends of mine living in the UK didn't like sending their kids to gender-separated schools
There are a plenty of co-ed schools.
My experience is over 10 years old, and mostly concerning Cambridge and Oxford, plus visits to London. Things may have changed.
I found Berlin to be an excellent biking city.
At one event I went to in Oxford, one of the locals had recently been killed while biking by a driver.
> There are a plenty of co-ed schools.
I may have misremembered the story. They were Finns, describing unexpected parts of their life in Cambridge. It might have been that they were surprised there were so many gender segregated schools.
I found Berlin to be an excellent biking city.
At one event I went to in Oxford, one of the locals had recently been killed while biking by a driver.
> There are a plenty of co-ed schools.
I may have misremembered the story. They were Finns, describing unexpected parts of their life in Cambridge. It might have been that they were surprised there were so many gender segregated schools.
Gender-separated schools are only a thing for private schools, and some grammar schools (which are selective state schools). The main aspect here is that the best schools tend to be private and many people do send their children to private schools when their income allows it or they invest in private tuition and hope to get into a grammar school. That is indeed something to keep in mind, especially for secondary school (from year 7).
The class system is overblown. Vastly different 'classes' don't mix much in any country.
The class system is overblown. Vastly different 'classes' don't mix much in any country.
> The class system is overblown
How do you judge that? Germany doesn't have an official nobility class. The UK ... does.
I don't like that.
Perhaps you're referring to economic classes? I believe Germany has lower economic disparity than the UK (eg, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq... says Germany's after taxes Gini coefficient after taxes is 0.295 vs UK's 0.345), so again, I prefer Germany.
How do you judge that? Germany doesn't have an official nobility class. The UK ... does.
I don't like that.
Perhaps you're referring to economic classes? I believe Germany has lower economic disparity than the UK (eg, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq... says Germany's after taxes Gini coefficient after taxes is 0.295 vs UK's 0.345), so again, I prefer Germany.
Sure, a monarchy has a nobility class... but that's irrelevant for 99% of the population and in a republic this is usually replaced by an equivalent dominating upper class but without hereditary titles (which are pretty much all that 'nobles' have over us commoners).
The class system means social classes in society as a whole: Working class, middle class, upper class, mostly, with people staying within their class. In real life nowadays that translates pretty much in what happens in all countries: If you're rich and educated you tend to live in an area where people are also rich and educated and you interact socially with similar people most.
Despite being a monarchy with a nobility class the UK have actually historically been front runners in Europe when it comes to the rule of law and protection of individual rights, which is what matters above ideology. For example, is there still a "church tax" in Germany? Well even if the Queen is head of the Church of England that would be perceived as an unacceptable breach of individual freedom this side of the Channel.
Bottom line regarding the discussion at hands: none of this makes any practical difference to individuals and people thinking of moving to the UK.
The class system means social classes in society as a whole: Working class, middle class, upper class, mostly, with people staying within their class. In real life nowadays that translates pretty much in what happens in all countries: If you're rich and educated you tend to live in an area where people are also rich and educated and you interact socially with similar people most.
Despite being a monarchy with a nobility class the UK have actually historically been front runners in Europe when it comes to the rule of law and protection of individual rights, which is what matters above ideology. For example, is there still a "church tax" in Germany? Well even if the Queen is head of the Church of England that would be perceived as an unacceptable breach of individual freedom this side of the Channel.
Bottom line regarding the discussion at hands: none of this makes any practical difference to individuals and people thinking of moving to the UK.
If it's irrelevant to the 99%, why haven't they voted it out? How much could they save by getting rid of an irrelevant House of Lords, for example?
> equivalent dominating upper class
Which is why I pointed to the Gini coefficient as a hand-waving argument that it isn't equivalent.
Perhaps I should have used the term "aristocracy"?
> unacceptable breach of individual freedom
When will they get rid of the law which requires the monarch to Anglican? (Or at the very least, not Catholic?)
How come school uniforms, so common in the UK but almost non-existent where I grew up in the US, aren't seen as a breach of individual freedom?
In England, "schools are also required by law to provide a daily act of collective worship, of which at least 51% must be Christian in basis over the course of an academic year." - https://religionmediacentre.org.uk/factsheets/religious-educ... . How is that acceptable?
If you grow up with it, you're used to it, and it's acceptable. If it's different, it's often not.
> none of this makes any practical difference to individuals and people thinking of moving to the UK.
It's important enough to me, which I added after writing "requires knowing more of your preferences" and "I don't like".
> equivalent dominating upper class
Which is why I pointed to the Gini coefficient as a hand-waving argument that it isn't equivalent.
Perhaps I should have used the term "aristocracy"?
> unacceptable breach of individual freedom
When will they get rid of the law which requires the monarch to Anglican? (Or at the very least, not Catholic?)
How come school uniforms, so common in the UK but almost non-existent where I grew up in the US, aren't seen as a breach of individual freedom?
In England, "schools are also required by law to provide a daily act of collective worship, of which at least 51% must be Christian in basis over the course of an academic year." - https://religionmediacentre.org.uk/factsheets/religious-educ... . How is that acceptable?
If you grow up with it, you're used to it, and it's acceptable. If it's different, it's often not.
> none of this makes any practical difference to individuals and people thinking of moving to the UK.
It's important enough to me, which I added after writing "requires knowing more of your preferences" and "I don't like".
church tax only for those who declare they are part of religion, this is voluntary and you get some benefits, as additional holidays I believe. I always left the religion option empty and never had to pay church tax.
> The class system is overblown. Vastly different 'classes' don't mix much in any country.
Also it’s an exclusively British thing. As a foreigner you can safely ignore all that nonsense, especially in the London bubble.
Also it’s an exclusively British thing. As a foreigner you can safely ignore all that nonsense, especially in the London bubble.
Are you currently in Ireland? If you want something similar consider other areas of England outside the South-East (I'm in Nottingham) or Scotland or Wales. Where have you lived previously? What do you enjoy doing?
Lots of people live/work in Germany or Switzerland without speaking German! Personally I'd go for Norway (not sure if that counts) or Spain.
Lots of people live/work in Germany or Switzerland without speaking German! Personally I'd go for Norway (not sure if that counts) or Spain.
Munich. Surf culture, Great Beer, 2 hours to the slopes. Low crime rate. Cycle lanes. Oktoberfest. Most people speak english.
Switzerland has difficult languages too, including German, and Switzerland is not part of the European Union (if you meant that by "EU") ;)
Lots of my peers are going to Malta. I wonder how is it.
Where she relocates to is pretty much open but we most often gravitate towards Germany, UK and Switzerland. We are pretty mixed up though due to mixed signals from all of them (UK: Brexit, Germany: difficult language, Switzerland: cost of living).
One thing we know is that we don't want to go to Ireland or something close to it. Great job market but high cost of living and public services not close to taxation (we were not happy especially with health and education). We have a small pre-school kid. So, if we learned anything from there is that we're willing to exchange a higher taxation rate with good public services.
Anyway. I'm curious. Which country in EU would you consider under similar circumstances.
Thanks