Factorio Friday Facts: Steam Deck, Ghost bugs, Docs improvements(factorio.com)
factorio.com
Factorio Friday Facts: Steam Deck, Ghost bugs, Docs improvements
https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-368
53 comments
Some of the input interactions in Factorio are hard enough even with a mouse, particularly if you are trying to find an item to build that you haven't built since early-game. It's hard to imagine any sort of controller-based input working without significant changes to the UI.
It isn't just the input controls. I cannot imagine playing on a such a small screen. I play facotrio on a single 4k and regularly want more real estate. If there ever was a game with a legit need for 8/12k it is factorio.
The steam deck has a touchscreen thought. So I wouldn't be surprised if those menus were easier to navigate than with a mouse alone ?
Touch screens are comically inaccurate compared to a mouse unless you have a conical fingertip (dunno, from a freak pencil sharpener accident?)
Did you see him try to close the research window near the start of the video? It only took him 4 or 5 attempts.
Touchscreen interfaces have some advantages, but precision is not one of them. They need to be explictly designed for.
Touchscreen interfaces have some advantages, but precision is not one of them. They need to be explictly designed for.
That is where the trackpads come in, with a bit of practice they can replace the need for a mouse in any game, be it strategy or fps.
Replacing the keyboard isn't as easy though.
Replacing the keyboard isn't as easy though.
I was hopeful the track pad on the steam controller could replace a mouse for anything requiring fast and precise aim/controlling (FPS/RTS), but I was sadly disappointed. For a casual or non-real-time gaming, sure. But if you are trying to perform, nothing yet compares to a mouse. I would love some new controller you could use from the couch that competes with the mouse. Maybe some future motion controllers will get there.
I played a fair amount of Overwatch on the old Steam Controller with a combination of touchpad and gyroscope controls. Touchpad for wide sweeping movements and gyro for fine tuning the aim. It's not quite as accurate as a mouse, and it does take some getting used to, but I found I was much more competitive with it than I was with a regular gamepad, especially when playing games like Overwatch that don't support aim-assist on controllers.
For slower strategy games, using the left touchpad for fast/imprecise mouse movement (or map movement) and the right touchpad for slow/fine tuned mouse movement is also decent. I don't know that I'd want to play an RTS that way, though.
For slower strategy games, using the left touchpad for fast/imprecise mouse movement (or map movement) and the right touchpad for slow/fine tuned mouse movement is also decent. I don't know that I'd want to play an RTS that way, though.
It definitely takes time to learn, but a few months of regular use and I believe I could get just as good with my steam controller/Steam Deck as with a mouse.
However, I am certainly not a great fps player so the needed skill to catch up isn't as much as it might be for you.
But I do believe that if you properly learn flick stick then you could probably get quite far, with less effort.
However, I am certainly not a great fps player so the needed skill to catch up isn't as much as it might be for you.
But I do believe that if you properly learn flick stick then you could probably get quite far, with less effort.
There are lots of games with basically the same interface requirements (eg, Minecraft), and they work with a gamepad, it's just very clunky.
Factorio has a sort of almost RTS aspect to it as well. You sometimes need to build fast when the zer... uh, biters are gnawing at your base.
Early when the Steam Deck was revealed they showed a promotional image with Factorio being played on it. It made me think that, yeah, the game does run great on Linux and I'm sure the console can handle it, but would you really want to play with that kind of an input device? I wasn't thinking about it much and a few weeks later I was playing Factorio and noticed how atrocious doing half the things I was doing would be with a controller-like interface.
Steam Deck has the little "pads" from the Steam Controller, those make playing games with mouse-based controls a joy with a handheld device (with some adjustment period).
They show this in the video! I actually almost wish the initial Steam Controller had these flat pads instead of the concave circles, it looks like it's going to be a straight up improvement.
They show this in the video! I actually almost wish the initial Steam Controller had these flat pads instead of the concave circles, it looks like it's going to be a straight up improvement.
Have you used them though? I have two steam controllers and the "mouse circles" are pretty finicky. I'm sure the pads on the deck will be better, but I still doubt they will be precise enough for a game like factorio.
I hope I'm wrong - I LOVE factorio and will definitely start a new save when the deck comes out. But even playing on my macbook touchpad, I wished I had a real mouse.
I hope I'm wrong - I LOVE factorio and will definitely start a new save when the deck comes out. But even playing on my macbook touchpad, I wished I had a real mouse.
For all the problems the Steam controller had, trackpad precision was the one thing I never really heard people complain about. For this sort of game, I think it would be a very effective compromise to get it working on-the-go.
Of course, it's still just a computer at the end of the day. If you want to pair a Bluetooth mouse and play that way, that's your prerogative; I imagine that most people would be contented to use the touchpads out of convenience though.
Of course, it's still just a computer at the end of the day. If you want to pair a Bluetooth mouse and play that way, that's your prerogative; I imagine that most people would be contented to use the touchpads out of convenience though.
The 'finicky' is from the default settings meant to work in as many games as possible. (Almost) Every game I tried I found some community-maintained controller profile that had near-perfect settings. I really love Steam's community. :D
Steam Controllers are my primary controllers. Precision is adjustable. They're super effective, in my opinion. From the sounds of it, you just prefer mice. But there's nothing finicky about them.
There are many non-essential keyboard macros and a good few that are essential.
A controller interface would have to break these macros up into layered directional menus. Nothing ground-breaking, but it is a different learning curve.
A controller interface would have to break these macros up into layered directional menus. Nothing ground-breaking, but it is a different learning curve.
Well, people successfully play Factorio on trackpads, which the Deck has aplenty, as the two pads below the sticks, as well as having a touchscreen.
So I suppose it's better than if you were playing it on Xbox or something like that.
So I suppose it's better than if you were playing it on Xbox or something like that.
What makes the Steam Deck so much more versatile IMO are the touch pads. I use the touchpads on my Steam Controller to play a few games that are 95% mouse-driven (simulators for a trading card game) and they're a joy.
I too have had a Steam Deck dev kit since pretty early on and have put an ungodly amount of time into it on there. It works really well, like the article already mentioned. Steam Input set up is pretty easy and carries you all of the way through the game. Actually, to completely side step Factorio, Steam Input is an amazing tool on the Deck. It makes it incredibly easy to coerce just about any game out there to play ball with the Deck controller scheme. Super pumped for the device to come out into general hands now
The Steam Deck looks pretty cool, but I recently starting using an existing Valve product that nullifies most use cases for me: Steam Link.
If you want a Steam Deck you should first try Steam Link. If it doesn't meet your needs (gaming requiring internet, mobile internet adding too much latency), then the Steam Deck becomes attractive. I hadn't considered this when evaluating the value of the Steam Deck and I suspect most others haven't either (judging from the lack of Steam Link coverage).
If you want a Steam Deck you should first try Steam Link. If it doesn't meet your needs (gaming requiring internet, mobile internet adding too much latency), then the Steam Deck becomes attractive. I hadn't considered this when evaluating the value of the Steam Deck and I suspect most others haven't either (judging from the lack of Steam Link coverage).
Makes total sense but my use case - and from what I can tell, this is very common - is sitting on the couch with the wife in the evenings while she's/we're watching something. There is a couple of hours after the kids go to bed where I could spend that time in the office, or I could be on the couch with her. I don't know if it's a woman thing or just my wife, but she definitely prefers I'm close to her, even if I'm on my phone. Since I like making her happy, I don't spend a lot of time on my PC playing games anymore. The Deck will allow me to play games again, and I'm really looking forward to it. Throw in the ability to play while on vacation/traveling/in bed, plus the cool features like instant resume from sleep (which my PC definitely cannot compete with) and gyroscopes, and I can't remember being this excited about a new gadget.
This is my primary use case too. I've started using my phone with steam link and an xbox controller to play some of the bigger single player titles I've been sitting on for the past few years (such as Horizon Zero Dawn, Witcher 3, and Cyberpunk 2077).
My 4790k is long in the tooth but it can lock 30 fps in any game. Coupled with a 3070 I can stream 1080p30 at max graphics settings on any of these games and I don't need to buy another computer to do it.
My 4790k is long in the tooth but it can lock 30 fps in any game. Coupled with a 3070 I can stream 1080p30 at max graphics settings on any of these games and I don't need to buy another computer to do it.
As someone who uses (or used to use) Steam Link to be able to use a Windows PC headlessly to game from a macOS machine, I think it's a really compelling argument to consider it before considering a Steam Deck.
However, I'm viewing Steam Deck as a mobile gaming machine, which might be replacing my current Windows gaming laptop, and I can leave my Windows gaming laptop at home (or replace with a tower altogether). And if Steam Link works with a Steam Deck, I can have the best of both worlds (mobile gaming + regular gaming via Steam Link)!
However, I'm viewing Steam Deck as a mobile gaming machine, which might be replacing my current Windows gaming laptop, and I can leave my Windows gaming laptop at home (or replace with a tower altogether). And if Steam Link works with a Steam Deck, I can have the best of both worlds (mobile gaming + regular gaming via Steam Link)!
I can see a little overlap between the two, but how are they competing with each other?
With Link, you need a gaming PC running 24/7, and then you need another device and a controller to go with it. The Deck is all in one.
It's like Stadia vs a Nintendo Switch. Overlapping for sure, but pretty different overall.
With Link, you need a gaming PC running 24/7, and then you need another device and a controller to go with it. The Deck is all in one.
It's like Stadia vs a Nintendo Switch. Overlapping for sure, but pretty different overall.
If you already use Steam then you already have a PC and according to the steam hardware survey you very likely have a more powerful GPU than what is in the steam deck.
Nearly everyone has a smartphone and video streaming box on a TV. So to get all the way there you need a controller.
Stadia vs. Switch is apt, except with negligible latency in the home (TV sharing is a common issue in couples/families today) and without needing to pay a subscription for things you own. Also, the graphics quality is going to be much better than what Stadia or Deck can deliver if you use Link with any decent gaming rig. Also I don't invite any google venture into my life because it's spyware and vaporware.
https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/
Nearly everyone has a smartphone and video streaming box on a TV. So to get all the way there you need a controller.
Stadia vs. Switch is apt, except with negligible latency in the home (TV sharing is a common issue in couples/families today) and without needing to pay a subscription for things you own. Also, the graphics quality is going to be much better than what Stadia or Deck can deliver if you use Link with any decent gaming rig. Also I don't invite any google venture into my life because it's spyware and vaporware.
https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/
Not necessarily, you can use steam on a Mac and it runs natively, you can also use it with parallels with virtualized windows, or you could've owned a PC and accumulated steam games at one point in your life and then moved over to the mac ecosphere. There are plenty of use cases where you may have a steam library and not have a PC... you're just not looking very hard.
> If you already use Steam then you already have a PC
that's probably not their target demographic.
that's probably not their target demographic.
I agree, but I think many on HN and the excited hardware junkies (which there will be plenty of for this niche boutique product) could gain some value without having another computer through existing, free, undermarketed software.
OT: is the link at the top for donations for the Ukrainian red cross legit?
https://donate.redcrossredcrescent.org/ua/donate/~my-donatio...
because the ifrc website has also campaign for Ukraine
https://donation.ifrc.org/?campaign=e8952a8a-5096-ec11-a2db-...
https://donate.redcrossredcrescent.org/ua/donate/~my-donatio...
because the ifrc website has also campaign for Ukraine
https://donation.ifrc.org/?campaign=e8952a8a-5096-ec11-a2db-...
Huh, that is a bit suspect. https://redcrossredcrescent.org/ refuses connection, the HTTP version just redirects to the IFRC homepage. The only backlink to that domain I can find is this tweet, and I have no idea if the twitter account is legt: https://twitter.com/RedCrossUkraine/status/14969278216163205...
> even though we never take part in sales or bundles
That's one reason I didn't hesitate to purchase it.
That's one reason I didn't hesitate to purchase it.
Years ago, I asked on the forums[0] if they'd have it on GOG since I wanted a DRM Free copy that I could pull updates from. They said, essentially, "not in the near future" so I bought it on a humblebundle ... I got a Steam key though.
A few weeks later it came out on GOG and I contacted about getting a key and they said, just buy it again.
I also haven't seen it on GOG-connect to make it available to Steam key holders.
So my experience definitely conflicts with their "early purchaser" customer-appreciation rationale for this.
[0]: https://forums.factorio.com/viewtopic.php?p=189466#p189466
A few weeks later it came out on GOG and I contacted about getting a key and they said, just buy it again.
I also haven't seen it on GOG-connect to make it available to Steam key holders.
So my experience definitely conflicts with their "early purchaser" customer-appreciation rationale for this.
[0]: https://forums.factorio.com/viewtopic.php?p=189466#p189466
Not that Wube Software handled this well, but you're better off not using GOG Galaxy for updates. It's had a 0-day privilege escalation vulnerability for over two years. GOG tried to pull a fast one on the security researcher who reported it and has downplayed the severity of the issue. They've left their customers vulnerable for so long that their incompetence is effectively indistinguishable from malice.
https://wccftech.com/gog-has-had-a-severe-internal-vulnerabi...
https://wccftech.com/gog-has-had-a-severe-internal-vulnerabi...
Thanks for the info and yeah, this adds another brick to the GOG pile of shame unfortunately.
GOG has been very lethargic to the point of straight-up dishonesty regarding their plan for Linux support for games, galaxy and their downloader. Their rollout of Galaxy has been panned and definition of what qualifies as DRM-free has been eroded over time.
I understand the disparity of resources, but steam has done much more lately to embrace Linux and their community than GOG and gaping security holes is just unacceptable.
A lot has changed since 2016.
GOG has been very lethargic to the point of straight-up dishonesty regarding their plan for Linux support for games, galaxy and their downloader. Their rollout of Galaxy has been panned and definition of what qualifies as DRM-free has been eroded over time.
I understand the disparity of resources, but steam has done much more lately to embrace Linux and their community than GOG and gaping security holes is just unacceptable.
A lot has changed since 2016.
That's the reason I never purchased it
This thread caused me to look up why they don't do sales. I was a bit frustrated at first; but I must say, after reading their rationale, that now I'm kinda convinced.
To quote one of the Factorio mods/staff:
> It isn't about visibility or sales, its about respecting the players who have already purchased the game. We don't want to reward the people who hold off on buying the game, the game is a price we find reasonable, and this is the deal. If you think it is priced too high, then it is your choice to not purchase, and we hope that with enough time, and extra development, we will be able to convince you of its value.
Sources:
https://forums.factorio.com/viewtopic.php?p=159626#p159626
https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-140
https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/8stbnl/psa_factor...
To quote one of the Factorio mods/staff:
> It isn't about visibility or sales, its about respecting the players who have already purchased the game. We don't want to reward the people who hold off on buying the game, the game is a price we find reasonable, and this is the deal. If you think it is priced too high, then it is your choice to not purchase, and we hope that with enough time, and extra development, we will be able to convince you of its value.
Sources:
https://forums.factorio.com/viewtopic.php?p=159626#p159626
https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-140
https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/8stbnl/psa_factor...
I don't buy it. These developers don't discount because they don't have to. They're not doing it out of some altruistic sense of duty to not "reward people who hold off." That's silly and I honestly can't believe that you believe that.
You are missing out. This game is worth way more than what it sells for.
Why? It's already arguably underpriced at $30.
I never before paid this much for a game
I paid around $10 in brazilian Steam.
Is there any reason to make a line of inserters instead of using belts?
not a whole line like that, but there are some situations where you'd want two of them spaced that way and it doesn't really make sense to put a belt or chest in between them. I'd assume the image was mostly just to illustrate that that layout could be disrupted with a ghost.
Only reason I have is if you're doing a no-belts run.
burner-inserter loops aren't a bad way to dispose of wooden power poles after refactoring your early base. I usually just set up a logistics chest to request some and then feed them into the burner inserter loop.
Seems natural to lock the cursor to the map grid (think: Advance Wars). But that is probably easier said than done.
A naive grid-lock would not quite be good enough for Factorio. Yes, there is a grid, but there's also a grid within that grid, if you mine a rock for instance there will be four pieces of rock lying within that one grid cell, and perhaps you want to pick up just one of them. Then there's combat which doesn't take place on the grid, sometimes you want to shoot a shell or a rocket between a few biters which don't neatly fit in any one cell, and they're moving quite quickly that you need a mouse pointer's freedom you shoot where you want.
It's an interesting problem, I'm looking forward to how they approach the proper controller support later in the year. I suspect Keyboard + Mouse will always be the most comfortable way to play though.
It's an interesting problem, I'm looking forward to how they approach the proper controller support later in the year. I suspect Keyboard + Mouse will always be the most comfortable way to play though.
Terraria gets around this with a dual mode aiming system. Holding the button to mine without holding a direction methodically selects each nearby mineable tile in your field of view one by one, but holding the joystick to aim lets you target freely.
I'll be buying the expansion on their word alone that it's ready and for sale. If they develop another game I'll buy that too.