My New Old Macintosh SE/30 Computer(charlieharrington.com)
charlieharrington.com
My New Old Macintosh SE/30 Computer
https://charlieharrington.com/my-new-old-apple-macintosh-se30-computer/
134 comments
You know what I miss from that era? The extension that would allow Oscar the Grouch to pop out of the trash can. What I mean is - Macintosh really had this different vibe back then. You could easily customize everything about your experience in a way that was very exploratory. How many hours of my youth were wasted screwing around in RezEdit or in making cool icons? Yes, it's super cool there are things like Swift Playground these days - I'm glad we live in an era where I don't have to pirate Symantec Pascal like I did when I was 13 and wanted to learn how to code. But, I wish the overall user experience were more the fun and creative feel we once had rather than a very slick but overly corporate one.
Thanks for this. I had more fun writing The Grouch and another goofy app named VideoBeep than I did with 35 years of more serious software. -Eric Shapiro
Yeah, besides the fun of personalization and just pure joy of poking around, I worry that some true innovation might be stifled by all this protections.
There should be several levels of security toggles, from being able to install software from anywhere on the internet, all the way to disabling memory protection altogether. As long as the user completely understands each, I think we would be in a much better situation.
There should be several levels of security toggles, from being able to install software from anywhere on the internet, all the way to disabling memory protection altogether. As long as the user completely understands each, I think we would be in a much better situation.
You mean like installing automatic updates ? Or running untrusted code in the browser ?
I didn't understand your question
haha, didn't he sing a little song as well? one of my other favorites from those times was the Eyeballs INIT... useless but still completely awesome. A buddy of mine reimplemented it in JS so you can have Eyeballs on your website hahah http://jouire.com/eyeballs/
Ah, I could go on and on about cool stuff like that. Indeed, ResEdit was super awesome, and I learned soo much about how computers work because of it (also having been a young kid who wanted to learn). Great memories :)
Ah, I could go on and on about cool stuff like that. Indeed, ResEdit was super awesome, and I learned soo much about how computers work because of it (also having been a young kid who wanted to learn). Great memories :)
Yes - "Oh I love trash!" and "I love it because it's trash!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyNDUboVsL8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyNDUboVsL8
Thanks for posting this. What a fun memory. Now I’m wondering how the heck I ended up with it on my families SE/30. We weren’t part of a local MUG and obviously no internet… random shareware I guess?
There is actually a modern version of Eyeballs available, updated for Apple Silicon http://www.sticksoftware.com/software/Eyeballs.html
Oohh, awesome, thanks. Ah, the original developer of Eyeballs, Stick Software / Ben Haller! He also made Solarian II, an old favorite of mine.. nice! Very cool to see all the historical stuff on the website too: http://www.sticksoftware.com/about.html
> I'm glad we live in an era where I don't have to pirate Symantec Pascal like I did when I was 13 and wanted to learn how to code.
I pirated a copy of REALBasic to make my first Mac program. I did, ironically pay for a book on how to program with it though.
I understand why compilers and IDEs cost money, but it seems obvious to me that they should be free and easy for everyone. I’m glad we live in this era.
I pirated a copy of REALBasic to make my first Mac program. I did, ironically pay for a book on how to program with it though.
I understand why compilers and IDEs cost money, but it seems obvious to me that they should be free and easy for everyone. I’m glad we live in this era.
Chiming in with my experience growing up in late 00 early 10s, I spent a lot of similar time doing such things with Linux :) .
> The extension that would allow Oscar the Grouch to pop out of the trash can
I miss the Itchy and Scratchy screen saver for After Dark.
I miss the Itchy and Scratchy screen saver for After Dark.
I had one with a 10baseT network card about 20 years ago. I ran NetBSD on it and punched a hole open so anyone could log in. I think I posted about it in the NetBSD IRC channel back in the EFNet days.
You started up System 7 at first and then clicked on the launcher and it would reboot into NetBSD. This was like 1.something ... might have been 1.5?
I had some external SCSI drives for it in the low GB range and I believe a CDRW. I think the ram was at 128MB (might have been 96)
I had compiled Mozilla 0.9 or so for it (whatever was current) and it actually ran (compiling took I think 4 days because I compiled it on the SE/30). You could see the elements of the interface render to the screen in human time.
I distinctly remember seeing each button come in to view and then slowly typed in "slashdot.org".
I used it as an X terminal as well, using the -broadcast option to log into an HP-UX 10.20 machine. I ran sam and CDE on that tiny monochrome screen. So ridiculous.
It was a glorious waste of time.
Just looked in my old email archives --- this was indeed from 2002. Right, 20 years it is then.
You started up System 7 at first and then clicked on the launcher and it would reboot into NetBSD. This was like 1.something ... might have been 1.5?
I had some external SCSI drives for it in the low GB range and I believe a CDRW. I think the ram was at 128MB (might have been 96)
I had compiled Mozilla 0.9 or so for it (whatever was current) and it actually ran (compiling took I think 4 days because I compiled it on the SE/30). You could see the elements of the interface render to the screen in human time.
I distinctly remember seeing each button come in to view and then slowly typed in "slashdot.org".
I used it as an X terminal as well, using the -broadcast option to log into an HP-UX 10.20 machine. I ran sam and CDE on that tiny monochrome screen. So ridiculous.
It was a glorious waste of time.
Just looked in my old email archives --- this was indeed from 2002. Right, 20 years it is then.
NetBSD/mac68k still boots that way.
I have NetBSD on a IIci (128MB RAM, SCSI drive, Farallon Ethernet NuBus card). I use it for netatalk, and as an internal DNS, DHCP and printer server. Other than requiring a motherboard recap, it performs very well in this capacity. It's not fast, and I gimped it further by pulling the cache card (a source of instability), but it doesn't need to be.
I have NetBSD on a IIci (128MB RAM, SCSI drive, Farallon Ethernet NuBus card). I use it for netatalk, and as an internal DNS, DHCP and printer server. Other than requiring a motherboard recap, it performs very well in this capacity. It's not fast, and I gimped it further by pulling the cache card (a source of instability), but it doesn't need to be.
Had one with the PDS Ethernet card as well. With Mode32 you could put in 128MB of RAM without swapping the ROM, or you could snitch a IIsi (IIRC) ROM and be 32-bit clean.
I put NetBSD on mine as well, and used it as a mail server for a time. With a little jiggery-pokery of a Wifi AP you could even be wireless.
Great machines.
I put NetBSD on mine as well, and used it as a mail server for a time. With a little jiggery-pokery of a Wifi AP you could even be wireless.
Great machines.
Ah, I also bought a SE/30 recently, as part of a batch of an upgraded 128->plus, an original SE, and my prize: the SE/30. All working too.
The reason I bought the SE/30 is because it's the computer I had on long term loan for my very first "paying" gig as developer, I was 17: making the software that drove the audio system for the Lille (FR) brand new metro lines back then.
Wrote the software in Turbo Pascal, to run on a smaller mac -- it had a GPIO card that drove 2 big REVOX tape reels, and was rewinding them in sequence while the other played elevator music. It also had a selector and an 'alarm' button to trigger digital announces from the control room, in case of problems on the metro line. The audio played on 10th's of stations, for years.
After a few mishaps (finding tapes torn to completely shreds in the computer room, because the 'beginning of tape' signal hadn't worked really well after rewinding!) it worked absolutely flawlessly until late 1999. I should have charged more :-)
It also had an easter egg! It was playing an 'happy birthday' message to myself every year, in every stations, early day on my birthday. Nobody ever complained :-)
I eventually returned the SE/30, and was given a PowerBook 140, which wasn't as fast, but hey, laptop baby, and, I still own that one!
The reason I bought the SE/30 is because it's the computer I had on long term loan for my very first "paying" gig as developer, I was 17: making the software that drove the audio system for the Lille (FR) brand new metro lines back then.
Wrote the software in Turbo Pascal, to run on a smaller mac -- it had a GPIO card that drove 2 big REVOX tape reels, and was rewinding them in sequence while the other played elevator music. It also had a selector and an 'alarm' button to trigger digital announces from the control room, in case of problems on the metro line. The audio played on 10th's of stations, for years.
After a few mishaps (finding tapes torn to completely shreds in the computer room, because the 'beginning of tape' signal hadn't worked really well after rewinding!) it worked absolutely flawlessly until late 1999. I should have charged more :-)
It also had an easter egg! It was playing an 'happy birthday' message to myself every year, in every stations, early day on my birthday. Nobody ever complained :-)
I eventually returned the SE/30, and was given a PowerBook 140, which wasn't as fast, but hey, laptop baby, and, I still own that one!
There is just something perfect about the original Mac series.
When Steve Jobs saw the Xerox Alto, he thought "well, obviously all personal computers are going to be like this", which is pretty much how I felt upon encountering the Mac for the first time (not until 1990).
My opinions tend to be pretty weak these days (like a three-handed economist), but with a typical teenage passion, I could not understand why anyone would use Windows, or how Windows could even exist when the Mac was there.
When I finally got my own (i)Mac in 2000, it was no longer quite so perfect. Although, I think the OS X 10.3 - 10.5 era got close.
When Steve Jobs saw the Xerox Alto, he thought "well, obviously all personal computers are going to be like this", which is pretty much how I felt upon encountering the Mac for the first time (not until 1990).
My opinions tend to be pretty weak these days (like a three-handed economist), but with a typical teenage passion, I could not understand why anyone would use Windows, or how Windows could even exist when the Mac was there.
When I finally got my own (i)Mac in 2000, it was no longer quite so perfect. Although, I think the OS X 10.3 - 10.5 era got close.
> I could not understand why anyone would use Windows, or how Windows could even exist when the Mac was there.
Replace Windows with Mac and Mac with Amiga and you’re in my teenage passion years!
Although I had the same feeling of “this is the future” when I saw a demonstration of the original Mac in 1984. But I just remember thinking, “no color?”
Replace Windows with Mac and Mac with Amiga and you’re in my teenage passion years!
Although I had the same feeling of “this is the future” when I saw a demonstration of the original Mac in 1984. But I just remember thinking, “no color?”
Steve Jobs had a bug up his butt about machines that could play games being "toys for kids" and he did everything he could to have the Mac treated like a "serious business" machine, part of that included sticking with boring corporate monochrome graphics.
I think he was mostly trying to avoid comparisons to the 8 bit Apples.
The other reason being of course that VRAM was breathtakingly expensive at the time and you could save some money by going with 1 bit per pixel. All in all the Mac with its 512x342 monochrome display tended to come out looking nicer than the contemporary 320x200 16 color EGA graphics.
I think he was mostly trying to avoid comparisons to the 8 bit Apples.
The other reason being of course that VRAM was breathtakingly expensive at the time and you could save some money by going with 1 bit per pixel. All in all the Mac with its 512x342 monochrome display tended to come out looking nicer than the contemporary 320x200 16 color EGA graphics.
I was never an Amiga guy. I remember seeing one at an acquaintances house and being bothered by the bad "iconography".
In case I missed something, I recently checked out a few web pages that captured images of the original Amiga "desktop" and it confirmed to me that the UI truly was, IMHO, rather poor.
That still is remarkable to me. Susan Kare deserves the accolades, but I'm surprised there no one on the Amiga team that could make as good a UI.
For that matter, the Raspbian OS I've been playing with on the Raspberry Pi has some pretty ugly stuff. Just to use an obvious example, is Thonny's icon for real?
I'll stop ranting about stuff I know nothing about now.
In case I missed something, I recently checked out a few web pages that captured images of the original Amiga "desktop" and it confirmed to me that the UI truly was, IMHO, rather poor.
That still is remarkable to me. Susan Kare deserves the accolades, but I'm surprised there no one on the Amiga team that could make as good a UI.
For that matter, the Raspbian OS I've been playing with on the Raspberry Pi has some pretty ugly stuff. Just to use an obvious example, is Thonny's icon for real?
I'll stop ranting about stuff I know nothing about now.
It is one of those things, yes. Not just an "everyone's tastes are different", which of course they are... but sometimes I see GUIs and think "yikes, how can you bear to look at that all day?"
For me, while KDE 1 was OK, KDE 2, 3 and 4 got progressively uglier and uglier. Finally KDE 5 (call it "plasma" or whatever you like) went all flat and it's at least bearable to look at, although not pleasant.
GNOME 3, OTOH, while I've never liked it at all as a desktop, looks immaculate. I think this is largely credit to Jakub Steiner's work on its graphical design (https://jimmac.eu/). He is really good.
As far as the Amiga goes, yes, I agree. The weird colours of AmigaOS 1.x (blue, white, bright orange, black) were so that it would display with decent contrast on a TV set rather than a monitor – specifically, an analogue CRT TV using US NTSC modulation. https://guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/amigaos10
When the Amiga got a bit more mature and more people used monitors, AmigaOS 2.x got a slightly more toned-down blues-and-greys palette. https://guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/amigaos204
But to my eyes the design was always crude and blocky and not appealing, whereas classic MacOS always looked great, either in monochrome on a tiny screen, or greyscale on a medium-sized one, or thousands of colours on several huge screens.
For me, while KDE 1 was OK, KDE 2, 3 and 4 got progressively uglier and uglier. Finally KDE 5 (call it "plasma" or whatever you like) went all flat and it's at least bearable to look at, although not pleasant.
GNOME 3, OTOH, while I've never liked it at all as a desktop, looks immaculate. I think this is largely credit to Jakub Steiner's work on its graphical design (https://jimmac.eu/). He is really good.
As far as the Amiga goes, yes, I agree. The weird colours of AmigaOS 1.x (blue, white, bright orange, black) were so that it would display with decent contrast on a TV set rather than a monitor – specifically, an analogue CRT TV using US NTSC modulation. https://guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/amigaos10
When the Amiga got a bit more mature and more people used monitors, AmigaOS 2.x got a slightly more toned-down blues-and-greys palette. https://guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/amigaos204
But to my eyes the design was always crude and blocky and not appealing, whereas classic MacOS always looked great, either in monochrome on a tiny screen, or greyscale on a medium-sized one, or thousands of colours on several huge screens.
> When Steve Jobs saw the Xerox Alto, he thought "well, obviously all personal computers are going to be like this"
a good idea in theory until you see that the original Lisa sold for what would be the inflation-adjusted price of $24,000 USD today.
a good idea in theory until you see that the original Lisa sold for what would be the inflation-adjusted price of $24,000 USD today.
Got one of those Lisa's on my own dime so I could run Smalltalk-80. It was years before anything else caught up :-)
> There is just something perfect about the original Mac series.
Oh, come on:
- tiny screen
- one-button mouse
- little memory
- expense
- poor tools
- closed architecture
- yada yada
I remember when the Mac first came out, the guy in the next room had one. I asked him "How do I write some C code on this?" Blank looks.
Oh, come on:
- tiny screen
- one-button mouse
- little memory
- expense
- poor tools
- closed architecture
- yada yada
I remember when the Mac first came out, the guy in the next room had one. I asked him "How do I write some C code on this?" Blank looks.
It's hard to quantify, but sitting at one of these upright Macs is a joy. The B&W screen was great for writing. It had this friendly-face look about it, and it took up so little desk space. A laptop is sort of similar, but you sit hunched over at those. The classic Mac allowed you to sit like a human instead of a caveman.
I get that it's not great for everything we do today that requires acres of screen real estate, but if you want to concentrate on a single task like writing (or programming) with little distraction, it's really nice.
I get that it's not great for everything we do today that requires acres of screen real estate, but if you want to concentrate on a single task like writing (or programming) with little distraction, it's really nice.
Really? I had a mac plus. Loaded Think C on it. Worked fine.
Key bit is first came out. I don't think in 1984 there was any dev tools for the Mac or very little (MS Basic I guess?). Think C was released sometime in 1986. Mac software production at the time was done on Lisas in a kinda similar fashion to iOS and the Mac today.
The Mac first came out in January 1984. C barely existed on microcomputers in 1984. Microsoft's first C compiler came out in 1983.
The first question out of a knowledgeable user's mouth would not have been "Can I write C on it?" You would rightly have deserved hostile stares rather than blank looks.
The first question out of a knowledgeable user's mouth would not have been "Can I write C on it?" You would rightly have deserved hostile stares rather than blank looks.
There would have been a dev environment (MacBasic) for the average user, but certain forces had other plans:
https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=MacBasic.txt
https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=MacBasic.txt
More context: When Microsoft unveiled Windows, John Sculley threatened legal action against them for copying the "look and feel" of the Macintosh. Bill Gates responded by threatening to stop development of all Macintosh programs and not renew the license for Apple II Basic, so Apple backed down. As a part of the remediation process, Apple had to stop working on MacBasic and (more importantly) sign an agreement granting Microsoft a license to create derivative works of the Macintosh's GUI.
https://www.filfre.net/2018/07/doing-windows-part-6-look-and...
https://www.filfre.net/2018/07/doing-windows-part-6-look-and...
And to complete the story, the program itself: https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/macbasic-10
More information on how early Mac development was done: https://macgui.com/news/article.php?t=477
Aztec C was the first C compiler for the Mac I remember... I think it was 1985? It was self-hosted too, no Lisa required. But Think C (and Think Pascal) were the real game-changers for me.
The Mac 128K came out in, pretty sure, September of '84. I bought mine in November of '84. (School discount.)
The first development tool I had access to was a port of UCSD Pascal. This was old school, original, UCSD Pascal v2. Simply imagine UCSD Pascal with a Quickdraw extension (that is if you can actually imagine UCSD Pascal at all...). I spent an entire evening making a button.
Next, we managed to get the next generation of UCSD. A much more "Mac native" dev environment, full access to the toolbox. We tried to build a sample program on a single drive machine. After about 30+ floppy swaps, the build failed. We didn't try it after that.
I don't know if I ever really got access to MS-BASIC. To be honest, at this point I was too busy having fun building Car Wars design spreadsheets in Multiplan -- which was AMAZING. If you weren't there, it's hard to imagine the impact of the mouse on a spreadsheet. It was cool enough in a word processor, but on a spreadsheet? Whoo boy.
In short order, I bumped the machine up to 512K in a back alley in Pasadena, and got my hands on a 400K external drive. Now, my friends, we're cooking with gas.
Indeed, Aztec C was the first compiler I bought. It provided a "unix like" dev environment with a unixy shell with an assortment of utilities, vi for the editor. It was completely competent for writing C on the Mac, you had full access to the toolbox. You need the 512K and external drive to pull it off, but it worked fine. Honestly, you needed that configuration for most anything. In those days, you rebooted -- a lot. (Programmers switch ftw!)
I had the "Phone Book" Inside Macintosh as a reference. Later we drove up to a computer show in San Francisco, and Addison-Wesley had just released the hard cover version. $80!! I still bought it (this was a lot of money for me). I also bought a very cool multi-tasking Forth, who's name escapes me.
Appreciate that C development on, well, any contemporary micro computer was a nightmare. Everything was slow, everything was small. Hard drives were rare. The Mac was no speed demon, but it was faster than a PC. It was faster than a Z80. Most anyone doing any real work for any of these machines, was doing it on something else. I think Microsoft did everything on VAXes (obviously not everything, but core development).
I got the Apple Smalltalk in late '85. This was THE Smalltalk. Blue book Smalltalk. The Xerox image on an Apple VM. This is where Squeak came from. But it wasn't very usable on a 512K machine.
Think Pascal was the real game changer. A full boat "IDE" self hosted on the Mac. This was, effectively, the "Turbo Pascal" of the Macintosh. It was dreamy. The Interwebz says it came out in '86.
Nobody I knew was using the Lisa. Nobody had access to one. We were all Mac geeks, making do. It's hard to imagine doing anything with a 9" screen, but we did. Just adapted. Wrote code on it, wrote (and laid out) the user group newsletter on it. I did database work on a Mac Plus, using 4th Dimension. Made some very nice reports for a survey system.
Bonus of a 9" screen? We all took our Macs with us. We all had those padded Mac bags. I bungied mine to the back of my scooter. When our user group met in a pizza joint, it was invaded with Macs, and we still had room for the pizza. Oh, and can you say...AppleTalk?
The first development tool I had access to was a port of UCSD Pascal. This was old school, original, UCSD Pascal v2. Simply imagine UCSD Pascal with a Quickdraw extension (that is if you can actually imagine UCSD Pascal at all...). I spent an entire evening making a button.
Next, we managed to get the next generation of UCSD. A much more "Mac native" dev environment, full access to the toolbox. We tried to build a sample program on a single drive machine. After about 30+ floppy swaps, the build failed. We didn't try it after that.
I don't know if I ever really got access to MS-BASIC. To be honest, at this point I was too busy having fun building Car Wars design spreadsheets in Multiplan -- which was AMAZING. If you weren't there, it's hard to imagine the impact of the mouse on a spreadsheet. It was cool enough in a word processor, but on a spreadsheet? Whoo boy.
In short order, I bumped the machine up to 512K in a back alley in Pasadena, and got my hands on a 400K external drive. Now, my friends, we're cooking with gas.
Indeed, Aztec C was the first compiler I bought. It provided a "unix like" dev environment with a unixy shell with an assortment of utilities, vi for the editor. It was completely competent for writing C on the Mac, you had full access to the toolbox. You need the 512K and external drive to pull it off, but it worked fine. Honestly, you needed that configuration for most anything. In those days, you rebooted -- a lot. (Programmers switch ftw!)
I had the "Phone Book" Inside Macintosh as a reference. Later we drove up to a computer show in San Francisco, and Addison-Wesley had just released the hard cover version. $80!! I still bought it (this was a lot of money for me). I also bought a very cool multi-tasking Forth, who's name escapes me.
Appreciate that C development on, well, any contemporary micro computer was a nightmare. Everything was slow, everything was small. Hard drives were rare. The Mac was no speed demon, but it was faster than a PC. It was faster than a Z80. Most anyone doing any real work for any of these machines, was doing it on something else. I think Microsoft did everything on VAXes (obviously not everything, but core development).
I got the Apple Smalltalk in late '85. This was THE Smalltalk. Blue book Smalltalk. The Xerox image on an Apple VM. This is where Squeak came from. But it wasn't very usable on a 512K machine.
Think Pascal was the real game changer. A full boat "IDE" self hosted on the Mac. This was, effectively, the "Turbo Pascal" of the Macintosh. It was dreamy. The Interwebz says it came out in '86.
Nobody I knew was using the Lisa. Nobody had access to one. We were all Mac geeks, making do. It's hard to imagine doing anything with a 9" screen, but we did. Just adapted. Wrote code on it, wrote (and laid out) the user group newsletter on it. I did database work on a Mac Plus, using 4th Dimension. Made some very nice reports for a survey system.
Bonus of a 9" screen? We all took our Macs with us. We all had those padded Mac bags. I bungied mine to the back of my scooter. When our user group met in a pizza joint, it was invaded with Macs, and we still had room for the pizza. Oh, and can you say...AppleTalk?
I had Turbo Pascal first, later THINK Pascal and then THINK C.
Ooh, are you by any chance the "J Calhoun" who made Glider? If so, thank you for making such an awesome game that is such a strong memory of mine from those days! :) If not, well, you share the last name and first initial of a legendary (IMO) Mac game developer! haha
I did write Glider. That was a long time ago. Thank you for your kind words.
I still enjoy writing small amusing applications and games.
I still enjoy writing small amusing applications and games.
Another Glider fan. I wrote a poor clone of it for the Commodore 64, which was not a patch on the original. Thanks for a great little game.
That's funny because the first playing around with a paper-airplane-floating-on-a-column-of-air I did was on a Commodore 64 using character graphics (that I hand-edited to look more like a paper airplane and floor vent).
When I got a Mac Plus and figured out how to draw sprites, I recalled that little Commodore exploration I had done years earlier.
When I got a Mac Plus and figured out how to draw sprites, I recalled that little Commodore exploration I had done years earlier.
On the one hand, I can't disagree with you, but on the other, it's like saying that Fred Astaire isn't good looking enough to be a movie star.
But he could dance a little. The original Macs were not really useful at all.
News to me as someone who used them to do things as a kid (music sequencing, sound design, software experiments, vector/bitmap art).
Modern machines are incredible and do so much more but these were useful in their time.
Modern machines are incredible and do so much more but these were useful in their time.
My comment was on the original Macs - those with almost no memory, one floppy drive, and huge expense.
For me at least, WYSIWYG word processing was the killer app on the original Mac. The 8-bit machines and current DOS machines at the time just couldn’t compare, although windows PCs caught up pretty quickly.
I remember it took years for Windows to catch on - not until Windows 3.0 I'd say, so really a 5+ year gap. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_3.0
There were other graphical desktops like Amiga and Atari ST around that time but nothing on either platforms had the finesse of the early Mac programs (as flawed as they could be).
There were other graphical desktops like Amiga and Atari ST around that time but nothing on either platforms had the finesse of the early Mac programs (as flawed as they could be).
They really didn't catch up until much later, and much of that had to do with printing. Macs produced decent output out of the box — fonts were a focus, and it showed.
I came in on Team Mac Plus and 1 megabyte was adequate.
My sense was the 128K Mac and 512 ("FatMac") were rather brief footnotes.
Still, college friend got a 128K Mac when they came out (Carnegie Mellon gave them to all the Freshmen?) and MacPaint + ImageWriter had us making our own cassette tape labels.
My sense was the 128K Mac and 512 ("FatMac") were rather brief footnotes.
Still, college friend got a 128K Mac when they came out (Carnegie Mellon gave them to all the Freshmen?) and MacPaint + ImageWriter had us making our own cassette tape labels.
It's interesting how similar these complaints are to the ones about the original iPhone. Many are literally the same.
The Mac became more open than the iPhone ever did - then started getting closed down more and more again - but they were both basically perfect MVP/proof of concept launches for a basic form factor and interface that got extended over the years to do so much more.
The Mac became more open than the iPhone ever did - then started getting closed down more and more again - but they were both basically perfect MVP/proof of concept launches for a basic form factor and interface that got extended over the years to do so much more.
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> Write Apple-Script to automate turning on 32-bit addressing automatically and setting the correct date every time I turn on the computer
Rob Mitchelmore wrote the Force32 extension which is made for Macs without a PRAM battery. It makes sure 32-bit addressing is enabled during startup. (Note that since a restart is required after enabling 32-bit addressing, it will automatically restart during the first cold boot).
https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/force32
https://github.com/cheesestraws/Force32
Rob Mitchelmore wrote the Force32 extension which is made for Macs without a PRAM battery. It makes sure 32-bit addressing is enabled during startup. (Note that since a restart is required after enabling 32-bit addressing, it will automatically restart during the first cold boot).
https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/force32
https://github.com/cheesestraws/Force32
This is very helpful! I will try this first. Thanks.
In that post he links to "the 6th most 'notable' Mac ever" over on Six Colors where they created a Top 20 of all-time list.
How that list failed to include the "Jurassic Park" computer, the gorgeous Quadra 700, truly made me sad. It's a machine where, if you need to take it apart, you can remove every single component - even the PSU and motherboard - with only ever needing to remove a single screw. (You can even remove the PSU's fan w/o needing any tools.) The rest is so beautifully designed that you can pop release all of it: floppy drive, hard drive PSU, speaker, motherboard, etc.
The 1 single screw holds the drive caddy to the case. That's it. And it's a design strategy that I'm willing to bet at least 50% of Quadra 700 owners back in the day didn't even realize was sitting on their desks.
By the way, the mini-desktop machine could be stood vertically or laid on its side - it was up to the user. Simply breathtakingly incredible design.
How that list failed to include the "Jurassic Park" computer, the gorgeous Quadra 700, truly made me sad. It's a machine where, if you need to take it apart, you can remove every single component - even the PSU and motherboard - with only ever needing to remove a single screw. (You can even remove the PSU's fan w/o needing any tools.) The rest is so beautifully designed that you can pop release all of it: floppy drive, hard drive PSU, speaker, motherboard, etc.
The 1 single screw holds the drive caddy to the case. That's it. And it's a design strategy that I'm willing to bet at least 50% of Quadra 700 owners back in the day didn't even realize was sitting on their desks.
By the way, the mini-desktop machine could be stood vertically or laid on its side - it was up to the user. Simply breathtakingly incredible design.
Well, the list's author (Jason Snell, the former editor of Macworld) does write, "one of the most popular things about this series will be arguments about my terrible rankings and my unforgivable omissions." :)
100% - I totally get it. Lists like these are always going to have What Ifs thrown in every direction. And the Q700 wasn't exactly popular by the mainstream (honestly, it was too expensive for that kind of awareness). And the list they created is fine even though the ordering could be batted around by plenty.
I was just opining about an anecdotal personal fave. :)
I was just opining about an anecdotal personal fave. :)
The Quadra 700 case was basically a copy of the Mac IIcx and IIci, which are on there. My first Mac was a IIcx, and I still have it. It really does have a great case. (Sadly, it boots to error chimes.)
There weren't a lot of screws on any contemporary Macs, were there? I had a 7200 that I opened for RAM/VRAM upgrades a couple times, and don't remember needing screws. Didn't try the drives or PCI slots, though.
Just a note related to the SCSI2SD device mentioned in the article ...
I recently bought four of these for use with various SGI and ran into a minor difficulty and the maker of these devices went well beyond the call of duty to assist me and provide suggestions, etc.
On a Saturday.
I recently bought four of these for use with various SGI and ran into a minor difficulty and the maker of these devices went well beyond the call of duty to assist me and provide suggestions, etc.
On a Saturday.
Find a copy of the game, Crystal Quest. I think it was the best of the early arcade style games.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Quest
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Quest
Playable on an emulated Mac in your browser (along with loads of other demos), courtesy of the Internet Archive:
https://archive.org/details/mac-demo-games
https://archive.org/details/mac-demo-games
SE/30's are the best. Here's a summary of some other modern and contemporaneous upgrades available: https://nickpunt.com/blog/se-30th-anniversary/
We had The Oregon Trail as part of teaching materials in our school in the 1980s.
In the UK.
Most of us in my class didn't know where Oregon is, really did not care about a story of woefully unprepared people who chose to make a journey for reasons of absolutely no consequence to a British nine year old, and to this day likely bear a grudge against an entire US state.
I got into an awful lot of trouble for submitting the minimum possible homework on that. Other kids: fifteen pages of detailed drawings and stories. Me: two A5 sides of completely disinterested made-up diary.
It was my only real rebellion.
In the UK.
Most of us in my class didn't know where Oregon is, really did not care about a story of woefully unprepared people who chose to make a journey for reasons of absolutely no consequence to a British nine year old, and to this day likely bear a grudge against an entire US state.
I got into an awful lot of trouble for submitting the minimum possible homework on that. Other kids: fifteen pages of detailed drawings and stories. Me: two A5 sides of completely disinterested made-up diary.
It was my only real rebellion.
We played Oregon Trail as part of school here in the US, and probably had a similar sense of US geography at the time, but we were just happy to get to use the computers.
> Me: two A5 sides of completely disinterested made-up diary. It was my only real rebellion.
/me adds unfocussed_mike to terrorist watch list
/me adds unfocussed_mike to terrorist watch list
> We had The Oregon Trail as part of teaching materials in our school in the 1980s.
> In the UK.
You may be misrembering - a Mac would be very rare in a UK school - it was probably an Apple II.
> In the UK.
You may be misrembering - a Mac would be very rare in a UK school - it was probably an Apple II.
I didn't say anything about a Mac. Though I accept I am taking it way off topic with my little grumble. Really I'm just still smarting at being told off :-)
It absolutely wouldn't have been an Apple II; I never saw an Apple II in the UK until they were retro. It would have been a port to the (similarly 6502-based) BBC Model B. We had loads of those in schools [0].
A bit of a google suggests that it was likely based on code from a 1978 computer listing, though it would have been 1983 when it was inflicted on us.
Funnily enough I don't think we spent more than half an hour with the computer. A week or so with the assignment.
[0] the Apple II would have been more expensive, and didn't provide the opportunity for schools-television-related content or a loan of the county's (truly groundbreaking) Domesday Book laser disk system:
https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co83846...
It absolutely wouldn't have been an Apple II; I never saw an Apple II in the UK until they were retro. It would have been a port to the (similarly 6502-based) BBC Model B. We had loads of those in schools [0].
A bit of a google suggests that it was likely based on code from a 1978 computer listing, though it would have been 1983 when it was inflicted on us.
Funnily enough I don't think we spent more than half an hour with the computer. A week or so with the assignment.
[0] the Apple II would have been more expensive, and didn't provide the opportunity for schools-television-related content or a loan of the county's (truly groundbreaking) Domesday Book laser disk system:
https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co83846...
> I didn't say anything about a Mac.
True, but this is a post about Macs - see title.
True, but this is a post about Macs - see title.
Yes -- edited my comment. I'm really just dragging it off topic and should be ignored :-)
> You may be misrembering - a Mac would be very rare in a UK school - it was probably an Apple II.
Getting even more off-topic, but I remember being a kid/teen in 1980s/90s Australia, and the diversity of machines we got to use at school impresses me in hindsight: Apple IIs, Commodore 64s, classic Macs, Acorn Archimedes, IBM PC JXs running DOS, Atari STs, no-name IBM PC compatibles running Windows 3.x/9x and Netware. (Not all at the same school, that was across four different schools I attended K-12.) My own kids don’t get exposed to anywhere near as much technological variety.
Getting even more off-topic, but I remember being a kid/teen in 1980s/90s Australia, and the diversity of machines we got to use at school impresses me in hindsight: Apple IIs, Commodore 64s, classic Macs, Acorn Archimedes, IBM PC JXs running DOS, Atari STs, no-name IBM PC compatibles running Windows 3.x/9x and Netware. (Not all at the same school, that was across four different schools I attended K-12.) My own kids don’t get exposed to anywhere near as much technological variety.
I went to a .. I want to say not very affluent school in Scotland, but that'd be an understatement. But we were taught to type on classic macs. I don't remember exactly what model, but definitely these ones with the little offset grin.
All I really remember is a shufflepuck game. That's it.
Just to confuse things, this would have been about 1995. That awkward gap between the beebs, and Tesco taking an interest in the matter.
All I really remember is a shufflepuck game. That's it.
Just to confuse things, this would have been about 1995. That awkward gap between the beebs, and Tesco taking an interest in the matter.
We had a room of BBC Micros, a room of RM Nimbuses, and a room of Macs at school (UK). The Macs were evidently the coolest. Pretty much the first thing I did when I got to university was buy a IIsi (funded by the articles I was writing for an 8-bit magazine).
The Nimbus was such a disappointing machine. At least the 380Z and 480Z looked like they came from a sci fi movie.
> At least the 380Z and 480Z looked like they came from a sci fi movie.
Nah. they lookd like what they were, clunky bent-steel boxes.
I agree the Nimbus was a dead-end.
Nah. they lookd like what they were, clunky bent-steel boxes.
I agree the Nimbus was a dead-end.
I'm about a decade younger than you - and I have the exact opposite memories of the Oregon Trail.
It was a break from school where we got to play video games.
It was a break from school where we got to play video games.
[deleted]
I still have my old SE/30. It's still working. Has the Ethernet card installed, so it's even marginally useful.
I also picked up my old 512k "Fat" Mac from my aunt's house where I had it stored for 20 years. Powered it up. Bright white screen, perfectly sharp, works perfectly. Not bad for a machine that debuted in 1984.
I also picked up my old 512k "Fat" Mac from my aunt's house where I had it stored for 20 years. Powered it up. Bright white screen, perfectly sharp, works perfectly. Not bad for a machine that debuted in 1984.
Would you say it's worth getting an ethernet card and fixing one with screen (likely leaky cap) issues?
I've got one that I've wondered might be a good connected-but-not-TOO-connected device.
I've got one that I've wondered might be a good connected-but-not-TOO-connected device.
Also own a Mac SE/30 and pretty much went through the hoops that the linked article did, only I did all of it myself. I also picked up an ethernet card for it because I had a retro-computer connection who got me one for a really good price (like, an AMAZINGLY good price). Otherwise, the network adapters for the SE/30's PDS slot are pretty rare and usually very expensive.
A far less expensive option is to get a Pi Zero, a USB-to-serial adapter, and a Apple-to-9-pin null modem cable. You can set up SLIRP on the pi running linux and then use a PPP modem driver to connect to the internet on the se/30. You're stuck at serial port speeds, but honestly for most of what you want to do on a computer this old (irc, bbsing, file transfers of se/30 sized files) it's actually pretty solid. I use the pi zero / serial interface for a bunch of my old computers that don't have proper network adapters.
A far less expensive option is to get a Pi Zero, a USB-to-serial adapter, and a Apple-to-9-pin null modem cable. You can set up SLIRP on the pi running linux and then use a PPP modem driver to connect to the internet on the se/30. You're stuck at serial port speeds, but honestly for most of what you want to do on a computer this old (irc, bbsing, file transfers of se/30 sized files) it's actually pretty solid. I use the pi zero / serial interface for a bunch of my old computers that don't have proper network adapters.
If you haven't already, you should open it up and remove the PRAM battery. I've seen what happens when the battery bursts and then sits for a few years... not pretty. The caps aren't as big of a deal in comparison, they just need to be replaced when you want to use it.
The caps are a big deal, just not as bad as the battery. The caps leak corrosive electrolytic fluid which eats traces and corrodes component legs. Most un-restored SE/30s require trace repairs at this point due to leaky caps. The longer the original caps remain the more extensive the repairs.
If you're a real Mac lover? Definitely. I used to use mine all the time as a very fancy vt100 terminal for an old Apollo server I had, and also to telnet to a BBS I was running in the late 90s.
It's a great conversation piece, too.
It's a great conversation piece, too.
Which ethernet card do you have? I have a saved ebay search but nothing has popped up recently
You could emulate one with an ESP32 or something and have wifi. The bus is only 16 MHz, slow enough for a modern microcontroller to bit-bang.
Niice, this is great. I really need to recap and otherwise tidy up my SE/30. Just dreading opening it up and finding a bunch of leaked capacitor fluid... Guess I better get on that!! Uh and the Mac Plus, too... >_> The one downside of having lots of old computers is you have to take care of them too!
Besides all of the software listed, that machine would also be a prime A/UX rig with that amount of RAM installed
I read every article about classic Macs. Like many of us, these computers are where I got started with my tech love. That said the only thing I really miss is Flying Toasters. Okay, maybe a spacial Finder as well.
The SE30 was the first real computer I was working on. The company my father worked for started to implement computers at the desks of most people. During the day they learned how to use them. In the late afternoon and evenings he did his regular work as a team lead. Me, being 14 was often at his work place (him being a single dad had me helping at the photocopy machine and stuff). And I was allowed to work/play on the computer.
Shortly thereafter I got my own Macintosh Classic with 4mb RAM and 40 MB hard disk.
Shortly thereafter I got my own Macintosh Classic with 4mb RAM and 40 MB hard disk.
There was a video I saw a while back of one of these connecting to Google. It took a while but when it loaded it was surreal like wow, this old technology works today.
Also if you like this stuff there's popular channels out there like Adrian's Digital basement or 8bit guy, etc...
Side note: the movie Jobs (2013) was dramatized and all that but it had a cool scene, when those circuits drew something on a screen. I am aware of Xerox Alto and all that. But still the concept of making something so new... idk that's cool would like to be part of that. Also those chips seem more tangible than an i7 or something. You could almost mentally map which chip goes to what part of the screen.
I will say I'm past it though, I don't really covet old tech just because of performance. I do to some degree like old Chromebooks using Linux.
Also if you like this stuff there's popular channels out there like Adrian's Digital basement or 8bit guy, etc...
Side note: the movie Jobs (2013) was dramatized and all that but it had a cool scene, when those circuits drew something on a screen. I am aware of Xerox Alto and all that. But still the concept of making something so new... idk that's cool would like to be part of that. Also those chips seem more tangible than an i7 or something. You could almost mentally map which chip goes to what part of the screen.
I will say I'm past it though, I don't really covet old tech just because of performance. I do to some degree like old Chromebooks using Linux.
I have spent most of my early computer years playing Sierra games and (Beyond) Dark Castle on a Mac SE.
Still a marvellous memory!
[my father brought one day a CD300. It was supposed to be a revolution. Well ok, I used it to listen to Pink Floyd CDs while playing King Quest ;)]
Still a marvellous memory!
[my father brought one day a CD300. It was supposed to be a revolution. Well ok, I used it to listen to Pink Floyd CDs while playing King Quest ;)]
Can someone explain why removal (as opposed to replacement) of the PRAM battery is necessary? How is this different from any other CMOS motherboard battery? Is there a fault in the circuitry that causes the battery to fail catastrophically?
Those batteries fail and leak all over the board around them, destroying traces and components. These aren't your typical lithium coin cell batteries that are very good at not leaking.
When a leak happens, even if you can fix/replace the components mounted to the boards, when you've got multi-layer boards it gets hard to figure out how repair the damage that happened to the internal traces and such.
If possible, replacing those batteries with something less likely to juice all over is what you want to do. And since you don't really know when it will start to leak, getting those old batteries out NOW is the safest option.
When a leak happens, even if you can fix/replace the components mounted to the boards, when you've got multi-layer boards it gets hard to figure out how repair the damage that happened to the internal traces and such.
If possible, replacing those batteries with something less likely to juice all over is what you want to do. And since you don't really know when it will start to leak, getting those old batteries out NOW is the safest option.
I’ll never quite get over the fact that many of these computers could just be designed with the components (and exploding battery) facing down so that, when they leak their corrosive fluids, they will flow away from the board.
OTOH, who’d imagine back then we’d still be using and cherishing these little machines?
OTOH, who’d imagine back then we’d still be using and cherishing these little machines?
My understanding is that it just needs to be replaced, it's a standard 1/2 length AA battery.
People recommend to remove them altogether though, I guess they figure the machines will be sitting in a closet for another 15 years, best to remove the problem altogether.
People recommend to remove them altogether though, I guess they figure the machines will be sitting in a closet for another 15 years, best to remove the problem altogether.
> People recommend to remove them altogether though, I guess they figure the machines will be sitting in a closet for another 15 years, best to remove the problem altogether.
This is the reason.
At the repair shop where I've worked we do recycling, and there's a lot of electronics that get destroyed by leaky batteries.
If you can do it without voiding warranty (and sometimes even if you do void the warranty), always take the batteries out of electronics when they go into storage.
This is the reason.
At the repair shop where I've worked we do recycling, and there's a lot of electronics that get destroyed by leaky batteries.
If you can do it without voiding warranty (and sometimes even if you do void the warranty), always take the batteries out of electronics when they go into storage.
It looks like this guy is actively using the machine so I couldn't understand why putting in a fresh battery and changing it regularly wouldn't be the preferred option and not dealing with a reset system clock every time you powered it off. As opposed to there was something on the logic board of the SE/30 that was harming the battery in some way and causing it to fail prematurely.
This read more like "my gran says to always unplug the toaster else the house will surely burn down"
This read more like "my gran says to always unplug the toaster else the house will surely burn down"
Even if it is currently being used frequently, there will come a time where it sits forgotten for an extended period. This isn't always a deliberate decision. Even if it is, it's easy to procrastinate removing the battery. This person is also afraid of opening the machine due to the CRT. In such a situation I think foregoing the battery is smart. Another option is wiring up an external battery that is much easier to remove (and won't be able to destroy the machine even if forgotten).
Seems like a great use for one of those "battery eliminator" things, with an empty plastic shell in the shape of the battery with a pair of leads that extends out of the case.
Yeah, definitely. I started designing one a while back but haven't done the external mounting system for it yet. This is the prototype (finished one would have longer wires and an enclosure that clips onto the back of the Mac someplace): https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?attachments/img_20201213_191...
That was the first Mac I really, really wanted. Beefy (for the era) processor, still the great form factor.
Sadly, I didn't actually get a Mac for another 10 years, but the SE/30 lives on in my head. Had I extravagant amounts of free space in my office, I'd track one down to run as a hobby.
Sadly, I didn't actually get a Mac for another 10 years, but the SE/30 lives on in my head. Had I extravagant amounts of free space in my office, I'd track one down to run as a hobby.
This guy came from money. I had a Mac SE but couldn't afford that 30MB drive. I had two floppy disks instead.
Does anyone know what kind of dev environment you can get on an SE? I guess assembly and Pascal are available.
Think C: https://www.macintoshrepository.org/1417-symantec-think-c-5-...
QuickBASIC: https://winworldpc.com/product/quickbasic/10x-for-mac
Logo, Smalltalk, Forth, ABC, Lisp, and others: https://www.gryphel.com/c/sw/program/index.html
QuickBASIC: https://winworldpc.com/product/quickbasic/10x-for-mac
Logo, Smalltalk, Forth, ABC, Lisp, and others: https://www.gryphel.com/c/sw/program/index.html
interesting. a lot than I expected
Apple's dev environment was MPW - Macintosh Programmer's Workshop - which provided a Unix-ish command-line environment within a text editor, if that makes sense. Ot included Asm, Pascal, C (later C++) and Rez compilers as well as common utilities. Some GNU utilities were also ported over.
Thanks. Does it have something similar to later Vim? I'll check it out.
As a tip, which I learned the very hard way, I now keep the machines upside down (or, in some cases, on their sides) in a way the exploding components face the ground so that, if they decide to destroy the computer, gravity will prevent the fluids from digesting the board.
Surprising how expensive these were. Apparently the original price for this was around $4k - maybe $9k modern eqv.
128MB of RAM would have been insanely spendy in 1989. Somewhere around $30k modern eqv.
So the total equivalent cost would be as much as a higher spec Mac Pro.
128MB of RAM would have been insanely spendy in 1989. Somewhere around $30k modern eqv.
So the total equivalent cost would be as much as a higher spec Mac Pro.
When the SE/30 came out it could only address up to 8mb of RAM anyways due to the 24-bit ROM. I think you could either swap the ROM from IIfx or IIsi (which came out the next year), or use the MODE32 INIT[0] which I believe required System 7 and came out in 1991, two years after the release of the SE/30. I guess 128mb of RAM would have been a bit cheaper by then... hopefully haha
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MODE32
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MODE32
Mine was maxed out with 8x 1M simms. Didn't hear about a 32 M mod until just recently.
>128MB of RAM would have been insanely spendy in 1989
I’m pretty sure those were unavailable at that time for any amount of money.
I’m pretty sure those were unavailable at that time for any amount of money.
In 1989, supercomputers came with 512 - 2048 MB of RAM
I meant RAM sticks that would fit on a SE
As someone who owned an SE/30, I had an emotional roller coaster. Like, really?!?!?! You dare use a custom firmware?!??!
Oh, but...YES! The memories! chef's kiss
Oh, but...YES! The memories! chef's kiss
score! Honestly I like BBEdit to this day for text, and the vector drawing programs. No mention of postscript printing, but that works well (pre-Level III postscript). Very fast interface for most things, even faster than many desktop computers today for native Mac software. I definitely kept my OS install disks and amenities, but it is somewhat humbling to read about entire ROMs and SCSI hacks here.. not easy! very nice to see it on YNews.
Mac/Claris Draw is still more usable than anything comparable today and therefore the effective power is almost as much for non-pro users.
I love these machines, I restored one some 20 years ago (put it together from parts of two others), and gave it away to a friend. I hope she kept it.
Mine was 6K USD new in 1989 I think.
I really want one of these. Any sellers in Singapore?
don't hard drives die after so many years?
The article talks about the SCSI2SD, which emulates a hard drive with a modern SD card.