Study show that people think that data analysts and accountants are boring(journals.sagepub.com)
journals.sagepub.com
Study show that people think that data analysts and accountants are boring
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/01461672221079104
79 comments
a higher barrier to entry to become even a "junior" accountant
I couldn't help chuckle at this one.
When I was in college, engineering was known as "pre-accounting" --- those who couldn't handle the math went into accounting.
This is not to say accountants aren't nice people but the math involved is what my engineering professors disparaging referred to as "kindergarten" algebra so the barrier to entry is really not very high.
I couldn't help chuckle at this one.
When I was in college, engineering was known as "pre-accounting" --- those who couldn't handle the math went into accounting.
This is not to say accountants aren't nice people but the math involved is what my engineering professors disparaging referred to as "kindergarten" algebra so the barrier to entry is really not very high.
Nobody said accounting math is particularly hard so. Everything around it is. Once you fail to be able to publish SEC required balance sheets because those mathematically highly skilled engineers screwed up your books by ignoring every single accounting standard, you might come to realize the value of good accountants. Well, after those good accountants left, that is..
because those mathematically highly skilled engineers screwed up your books by ignoring every single accounting standard
Sounds like some accountant made a really bad choice in accounting software --- probably went with the most cost effective option.
Sounds like some accountant made a really bad choice in accounting software --- probably went with the most cost effective option.
Oh, the software is just fine! If your fancy engineers are picking, say, training as a cost item for, say, equipment when creating the purchase requisition you can barely blame accounting when they catch that too late. And yes, that works in all systems if you put the necessary details into the line description text instead of some field your ERP system is able to analyze.
I think there is a bit of confusion between topics here.
Software Engineering as an academic topic can be very difficult; as a career, because of various factors over the last 30 years, it's anything but.
Accounting as an academic topic is fundamentally very simple (it's mostly about giving precise names to money movements); as a career, because of rigorous qualification paths in most countries, it's anything but.
Software Engineering as an academic topic can be very difficult; as a career, because of various factors over the last 30 years, it's anything but.
Accounting as an academic topic is fundamentally very simple (it's mostly about giving precise names to money movements); as a career, because of rigorous qualification paths in most countries, it's anything but.
because of rigorous qualification paths in most countries, it's anything but.
LOL!
Here is are the requirements to take a CPA exam in the USA.
https://www.ais-cpa.com/cpa-exam-requirements/
LOL!
Here is are the requirements to take a CPA exam in the USA.
US Citizen, 18 years old with a valid SSN
120 hrs of college credit or a bachelor's degree.
https://www.ais-cpa.com/cpa-exam-requirements/
PASSING the test is what is rigorous. Just as you don't need a law degree to sit for the bar (in some states), the requirements to sit for the CPA exam are basic. But the exam itself is not a walk in the park.
My view might be skewed - in the UK there are stricter requirements and several exams, and the same in Italy.
Aren't there accounting disciplines that are all about navigating laws and regulations to find advantageous loopholes, legal or not, by which to maximize customers' profit with least risk, aka, creative-accounting? And its counterpart, forensic-accounting? I'd imagine that virus/antivirus battle would be very interesting and difficult.
Accounting practice of any type requires skill, I'm not denying that. I'm just saying that it's conceptually less complicated than dealing with physics or advanced mathematics.
And yet all the accountants I’ve worked with have had to be able to prove their ability by way of recognised qualifications. Ie legally they have to have certain qualifications in order to do their job.
Whereas I dropped out of school at 17 after being on track to fail my A Level in Maths and yet I recently built an ERP system for a $100m revenue company. No one checked my (lack of) qualifications! (Nor did my lacking certain bits of paper impede my ability to do a good job)
I’m not as bad at maths as that failed A Level would have indicated, but I doubt I would have easily sailed through accountancy training/qualifications. Not for lack of intelligence but for lacking in other areas.
So raw “math ability” is only one element here and just focussing on that could risk minimising all the other skills required to be a good accountant (including organisation and people skills).
Whereas I dropped out of school at 17 after being on track to fail my A Level in Maths and yet I recently built an ERP system for a $100m revenue company. No one checked my (lack of) qualifications! (Nor did my lacking certain bits of paper impede my ability to do a good job)
I’m not as bad at maths as that failed A Level would have indicated, but I doubt I would have easily sailed through accountancy training/qualifications. Not for lack of intelligence but for lacking in other areas.
So raw “math ability” is only one element here and just focussing on that could risk minimising all the other skills required to be a good accountant (including organisation and people skills).
Ie legally they have to have certain qualifications in order to do their job.
No, they don't. Only about half the accountants in the USA are licensed CPAs. And you don't need a college degree to become one in many states.
No, they don't. Only about half the accountants in the USA are licensed CPAs. And you don't need a college degree to become one in many states.
<And you don't need a college degree to become one in many states.>
I don't think ANY state requires a degree or CPA license to be employed in a job that may have the word accountant in its title; however, there are certain kinds of roles, with certain responsibilities, that generally require a degree, and sometimes a CPA license.
I don't think ANY state requires a degree or CPA license to be employed in a job that may have the word accountant in its title; however, there are certain kinds of roles, with certain responsibilities, that generally require a degree, and sometimes a CPA license.
Surely a degree is a qualification…
You're confusing SITTING for the exam with being issued a license -- it's the latter where you'll need a degree. The rules are set up to allow college students, who are close to graduation, to sit for the exam. The coursework requirements are such that a certain number of credits in Accounting must already be in hand, and it's almost inconceivable that any person meeting those requirements wouldn't be on the cusp of graduating.
How many states require a degree in accounting to become a licensed CPA?
Lots of lawyers are licensed CPAs without any accounting degree.
Lots of lawyers are licensed CPAs without any accounting degree.
You need from 24-30+ credits of Accounting coursework in every state. No one is taking 8-10 accounting classes in college to round out their electives. 99% of CPAs have a business degree. Yes, there are exceptions.
I mean that a degree is by definition a qualification: a condition that must be fulfilled before a right can be acquired; an official requirement.
Hmm yes you’re right actually (although I’m talking from a UK standpoint). Maybe I’m conflating the legal requirement to meet certain accounting filing standards vs a requirement for a particular qualification (the qualification being the way to ensure you are fully trained in those standards).
However for companies over a certain size it would be very rare, at least in the UK, to employ someone without formal recognised accounting qualifications.
And for certain accounting practices (auditing accounts for example) then there are actually legal requirements around having qualifications from a recognised body.
So you’re partly right, but for all intents and purposes in the UK at least, there are de facto qualification requirements for working as an accountant. (I would say for anything more than just preparing simple accounts for sole traders or individuals).
This accepted minimum qualification level is not matched in the software development field. Even if “a degree” is listed as required, this can often be sidestepped by being able to prove one’s track record.
My comparison between software development and accounting was somewhat tongue-in-check anyway. I was really just trying to stand up for the accountants :)
However for companies over a certain size it would be very rare, at least in the UK, to employ someone without formal recognised accounting qualifications.
And for certain accounting practices (auditing accounts for example) then there are actually legal requirements around having qualifications from a recognised body.
So you’re partly right, but for all intents and purposes in the UK at least, there are de facto qualification requirements for working as an accountant. (I would say for anything more than just preparing simple accounts for sole traders or individuals).
This accepted minimum qualification level is not matched in the software development field. Even if “a degree” is listed as required, this can often be sidestepped by being able to prove one’s track record.
My comparison between software development and accounting was somewhat tongue-in-check anyway. I was really just trying to stand up for the accountants :)
He didn't mean in terms of skill or difficulty; he was referring to the bullshit one has to go through to actually be an accountant (certifications, etc).
Just like a lot of other professions --- only easier. Try passing a legal bar exam or becoming a licensed engineer.
I have passed the bar exam actually lol
Can't say whether or not it's easier than an exams to become an accountant. Bear in mind though that one needs to keep taking exams to maintain CPA status, whereas in law, we have no such requirement. Just have to keep doing (usually bullshit) CLEs.
In any event, any kind of licensure is more than we have to become devs, which I think is the main point.
edit: I see your point in another comment that one need not be a CPA to be an accountant, and that's fair enough.
Can't say whether or not it's easier than an exams to become an accountant. Bear in mind though that one needs to keep taking exams to maintain CPA status, whereas in law, we have no such requirement. Just have to keep doing (usually bullshit) CLEs.
In any event, any kind of licensure is more than we have to become devs, which I think is the main point.
edit: I see your point in another comment that one need not be a CPA to be an accountant, and that's fair enough.
Bear in mind though that one needs to keep taking exams to maintain CPA status
Nope, not in the USA.
Most states have "continuing education" reporting requirements which can be self study in many cases. Take an approved on-line class every 2 years and you're good in most states.
Also bear in mind that most accountants (at least in the USA) don't have any license or certification. Try practicing law like that.
Nope, not in the USA.
Most states have "continuing education" reporting requirements which can be self study in many cases. Take an approved on-line class every 2 years and you're good in most states.
Also bear in mind that most accountants (at least in the USA) don't have any license or certification. Try practicing law like that.
I know of a couple CPAs who have mentioned the need to study for some test to maintain their credentials. What is it that they may have been referring to?
CPE (Continuing Professional Education).
Total BS to show you're still involved and interested in accounting. The idea behind the requirement is to keep accountants up to date on new tax laws.
As I said above, report your results (pass/fail) from an on-line class once every 2 years and you're good in most states. A lot of states will accept self study. This is nothing like the CPA test.
Note: I have a CPA in my extended family.
Total BS to show you're still involved and interested in accounting. The idea behind the requirement is to keep accountants up to date on new tax laws.
As I said above, report your results (pass/fail) from an on-line class once every 2 years and you're good in most states. A lot of states will accept self study. This is nothing like the CPA test.
Note: I have a CPA in my extended family.
> I cannot say the same however for software developers (of which I'm one). Far more variability there!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-group_homogeneity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-group_homogeneity
Interesting!
However I’m not affected by cognitive biases, so this probably doesn’t apply to me. /s
However I’m not affected by cognitive biases, so this probably doesn’t apply to me. /s
What people think is extremely influenced by pop culture. Programming was boring, coding is cool. Investing is boring, VC is cool. Being a lawyer was boring, being a lawyer is cool.
People comfortable with numbers are also not average in their soft skills.
This comment reminds me of how the Simpsons potentially influence public opinion on nuclear power being unsafe.
Seriously. Society is an airtight room made of mirrors.
[deleted]
The impact factor of the journal is 5/10
Well yes. Yes. Of course, it's a bit of a jump isn't it? I mean, er, data analyst to lion taming in one go. You don't think it might be better if you worked your way towards lion taming, say, via machine learning?
For those that don't get the reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAOQH4xEyhM
I think for many people the definition of boring is:
- anything that I don't understand
- anything that forces me to think
- anything that I don't understand
- anything that forces me to think
You're two thirds of the way there.
The final, most important piece of the puzzle is of course "anything that, having put in the thought required to understand it, would be considered a waste of time an energy".
Talk about the analytics of, say, how and why spouses cheat, and you'll be able to get anyone's attention easily.
Talk about the analytics of, say, how and why spouses cheat, and you'll be able to get anyone's attention easily.
This is the kind of comment a very boring person would make
Although the study says the among the most boring hobbies is watching tv, which everyone understands and evokes almost no thought at all.
And:
- even if I learned it, nobody in my social circle would care
- even if I learned it, nobody in my social circle would care
Plus: I never saw a drama series about it
What about that documentary starring Ben Affleck?
Oh, that one. They always pick those special cases for those real-life documentaries, don't they? Maybe it changes when Netflix turns it into sequel series...
I was a math major in college. Now, math is not exactly stock car racing, or lion taming, but I never would have conceived of doing business with my life. It was obviously way dull and the only people I knew around the dorm who majored in it were dopes who were coasting through college and didn't know what else to do. (Everybody sees, right, that I am setting up to be proved wrong?)
Twenty years later I got a subscription to the New Yorker and they ran a regular business column (https://www.newyorker.com/contributors/james-surowiecki) . Almost every one was super interesting. Decision making under uncertainty, leveraged buyouts, and all kinds of stuff that was worth thinking about.
These days, someone here turned me on to Matt Levine's newsletter (https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/authors/ARbTQlRLRjE/matthe...). I never thought that finance could regularly be laugh out loud fun. Who knew?
I'm a college professor. I sometimes tell the Business folks that they could do with a lesson in marketing. They smile, a little, and change the subject. I think they are so flooded with folks that it is not really of interest. Too bad.
Twenty years later I got a subscription to the New Yorker and they ran a regular business column (https://www.newyorker.com/contributors/james-surowiecki) . Almost every one was super interesting. Decision making under uncertainty, leveraged buyouts, and all kinds of stuff that was worth thinking about.
These days, someone here turned me on to Matt Levine's newsletter (https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/authors/ARbTQlRLRjE/matthe...). I never thought that finance could regularly be laugh out loud fun. Who knew?
I'm a college professor. I sometimes tell the Business folks that they could do with a lesson in marketing. They smile, a little, and change the subject. I think they are so flooded with folks that it is not really of interest. Too bad.
> I think they are so flooded with folks that it is not really of interest
I think they actually want to actively discourage people. They understand supply and demand.
I think they actually want to actively discourage people. They understand supply and demand.
As an accountant - Not surprised. Part of the issue is that you’d spend 8 hours a day doing stuff that is quite arcane and the average person has literally no reference point that would make it relatable.
eg I mostly do large private equity stuff - mostly offshore. Confidentiality aside the average person has zero chance of following any sort of cross jurisdiction finance stuff. Or worse they read some clickbait write up on Panama paper or whatever by a journalist that also doesn’t know anything about the topic aside from outrage sells newspapers.
So I mostly just don’t say anything. Add 8 hours of sleep and you don’t have many hours of interesting left
eg I mostly do large private equity stuff - mostly offshore. Confidentiality aside the average person has zero chance of following any sort of cross jurisdiction finance stuff. Or worse they read some clickbait write up on Panama paper or whatever by a journalist that also doesn’t know anything about the topic aside from outrage sells newspapers.
So I mostly just don’t say anything. Add 8 hours of sleep and you don’t have many hours of interesting left
There are vastly worse things to be than boring.
Young people definitely make decisions about things based on perceived social appeal. It's kind of a thing.
Can you blame them? Social appeal has significant mating and survival consequences.
I think the whole lonely geek thing has gotten better in the last decade, but it used to be really bad. Like the Lone Gunmen in the X-Files (really dating myself now).
If you're in that stereotype, either you end up finding a lucky niche that appreciates your talent (easier these days) or you can easily end up ostracized and terribly lonely, with fewer friends, mates, opportunities, etc., which can in turn lead to severe depression and other mental health consequences.
"I'm smart, I'm nice, why doesn't anyone like me"... used to be a common complaint of the geeky types. Thankfully it's a bit better these days.
I think the whole lonely geek thing has gotten better in the last decade, but it used to be really bad. Like the Lone Gunmen in the X-Files (really dating myself now).
If you're in that stereotype, either you end up finding a lucky niche that appreciates your talent (easier these days) or you can easily end up ostracized and terribly lonely, with fewer friends, mates, opportunities, etc., which can in turn lead to severe depression and other mental health consequences.
"I'm smart, I'm nice, why doesn't anyone like me"... used to be a common complaint of the geeky types. Thankfully it's a bit better these days.
> Can you blame them?
Can't and don't. It's just a measurable fact of the human condition. I'm not sure why you thought I would.
Can't and don't. It's just a measurable fact of the human condition. I'm not sure why you thought I would.
Not you personally, sorry. It's just a saying. "Can anyone blame them" would've been a better choice of phrasing.
For someone with full blown ADHD. There isn’t much worse then being bored. It feels like a physical pain so much so that I’ll take a considerable amount of physical pain over being bored.
Self-flagellation isn't boring. If you can do it on a unicycle, even better!
> "Unfortunately, some people are perceived as boring."
Some people just are crashing bores.
Some people just are crashing bores.
Guardian did an amusing take on it here : https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/mar/19/if-you-find-...
I would love to know what people think about software engineers.
Time to consider becoming a lion tamer [1].
[1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LqQlCOmXuHM
[1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LqQlCOmXuHM
Stereotypes suck. Why would data analytics be boring?
Read the abstract: Data analysts, not data analytics. The persons interested in these seem to have boring traits.
Yeah, my mistake. But how can such person be considered boring? In my mind the are the persons that tackle the data, find connections where others don't see it, good at observing patterns...
Don't worry, people on HN know what filthy beasts data analysts truly are.
Everyone who digs that type of mathematics, is also doing some other naughty things for fun.
What is surprising from this shotty paper is that they conclude boring people are perceived as "less competent".
Seems counter-intuitive, considering accounting and taxes.
What is surprising from this shotty paper is that they conclude boring people are perceived as "less competent".
Seems counter-intuitive, considering accounting and taxes.
I’m guessing you didn’t read the whole paper. Perhaps you thought it would be boring?
They did two different studies. One took a list of occupations, and asked the respondents “Joe is an accountant. How boring does that make him seem, 1-7?”
The other study then created a vignette combining attributes that were individually rated into a bigger description, then asked “how competent (skilled, hard-working) does this person seem?”
So the connection is boringness -> low competency, and not necessarily all data analyst -> boring.
Data analyst was down the list a bit on boringness - less than accounting, law, and a few others. Mathematics on the other hand had the lowest boringness rating of the occupations.
They did two different studies. One took a list of occupations, and asked the respondents “Joe is an accountant. How boring does that make him seem, 1-7?”
The other study then created a vignette combining attributes that were individually rated into a bigger description, then asked “how competent (skilled, hard-working) does this person seem?”
So the connection is boringness -> low competency, and not necessarily all data analyst -> boring.
Data analyst was down the list a bit on boringness - less than accounting, law, and a few others. Mathematics on the other hand had the lowest boringness rating of the occupations.
[deleted]
If you have to ask then you're probably boring outside your field. I work in property management and while it's fascinating to me I'm also aware that things like the story of the neighboring building with a staircase railing that's fine but implemented debateably within code will put the average person to sleep. Being interesting isn't about you it's about a two way interaction.
>But how can such person be considered boring?
Consider a continuum from Boring to Exciting. Now place these jobs on them:
- Firefighter
- Rocket Scientist
- Data Analyst
They are more boring, ergo, they are the boring jobs.
Consider a continuum from Boring to Exciting. Now place these jobs on them:
- Firefighter
- Rocket Scientist
- Data Analyst
They are more boring, ergo, they are the boring jobs.
Isn't "boring" also a function of "would I see myself doing this?"?
People don't seem to find being an Uber driver boring, because you talk to people all day. This sounds extremely boring and tiresome to me.
People don't seem to find being an Uber driver boring, because you talk to people all day. This sounds extremely boring and tiresome to me.
> how can such person be considered boring?
Have you met my constant companions, Dunning and Kruger?
Have you met my constant companions, Dunning and Kruger?
Clearly they have not seen The Accountant (2016), starring Ben Affleck.
Title reads like every one of my public school bullies.
Study shows that studies are boring
A possible limitation that jumps out to me about the study is that the participants were all from crowd-sourcing services (mainly Amazon's Mechanical Turk, residing in the USA; but also Prolific.co, residing in the UK). Are people who work for crowd-sourcing services representitive of the wider population?
I found their definition of boredom interesting:
> Boredom is often conceptualized as the adverse experience of wanting but being unable to pursue satisfactory activity. It is an unpleasant emotion characterized by low or mixed arousal, a lack of interest in the situation, the perception that time is passing slowly, failure to sustain attention, and a lack of perceived purpose. Boredom, an affective experience, signals that current (in)activity fails to offer a sense of meaningfulness and propels the pursuit of actions that, for example, offer a sense of purpose, novelty, or might temporarily distract from one’s immediate predicament.
And what might make people boring:
> [prior] results indicated that stereotypically boring people are characterized by negative egocentrism in interactions (e.g., lack of interest in the other person’s contributions and constant complaining) and banality (e.g., interest in a single topic only; repeating jokes); they talked less and shared relatively little subjective information.
> Our research shows that being perceived as boring likely conveys low competence and low warmth, being a social burden, thus causing avoidance by others.
Their table of stereotypical characteristics of boring people: https://journals.sagepub.com/na101/home/literatum/publisher/...
Their table of boring jobs: https://journals.sagepub.com/na101/home/literatum/publisher/...
Their table of boring hobbies: https://journals.sagepub.com/na101/home/literatum/publisher/...
I found their definition of boredom interesting:
> Boredom is often conceptualized as the adverse experience of wanting but being unable to pursue satisfactory activity. It is an unpleasant emotion characterized by low or mixed arousal, a lack of interest in the situation, the perception that time is passing slowly, failure to sustain attention, and a lack of perceived purpose. Boredom, an affective experience, signals that current (in)activity fails to offer a sense of meaningfulness and propels the pursuit of actions that, for example, offer a sense of purpose, novelty, or might temporarily distract from one’s immediate predicament.
And what might make people boring:
> [prior] results indicated that stereotypically boring people are characterized by negative egocentrism in interactions (e.g., lack of interest in the other person’s contributions and constant complaining) and banality (e.g., interest in a single topic only; repeating jokes); they talked less and shared relatively little subjective information.
> Our research shows that being perceived as boring likely conveys low competence and low warmth, being a social burden, thus causing avoidance by others.
Their table of stereotypical characteristics of boring people: https://journals.sagepub.com/na101/home/literatum/publisher/...
Their table of boring jobs: https://journals.sagepub.com/na101/home/literatum/publisher/...
Their table of boring hobbies: https://journals.sagepub.com/na101/home/literatum/publisher/...
_People_ are boring.
Shocking!
I've known quite a few accountants over the years. Some fit this typical stereotype rather well, and others have been a bit more "dynamic".
However, they are notable in that nearly all of them have been some of the nicest people I've ever met, with very high levels of integrity and authenticity. Very level headed, high attention to detail, professional, knowledgeable and kind.
Obviously the profession does attract a certain type, but despite any negative stereotypes, in my experience their traits overall seem to be overwhelmingly positive.
I cannot say the same however for software developers (of which I'm one). Far more variability there!
I guess this is partly because there is perhaps a higher barrier to entry to become even a "junior" accountant, whereas any random blundering idiot who dropped out of school can become a software developer (n=1 proof: me)
:-p