Launch HN: Charge Robotics (YC S21) - Robots that build solar farms
81 comments
Interesting idea - having worked in the back office of a solar construction company for a number of years I can see a few challenges.
Install labor is relatively cheap but more importantly flexible - relative to the cost of the project install is low double digits %. If a job isn't running smoothly you cut your temps and move your main crew over to another site or send them home if they're local. I would wonder how this work fit in with an automated build/install solution.
Unless you have control at the GC level you're going to be start/stop with electricians cutting trenches in front of you, missing materials (tariffs/port strikes), permitting delays, etc, and you'll have expensive idling equipment that's tough to move.
I get that this is the problem you're trying to solve - but I'd definitely suggest going to enough bread and butter 2-10MW sites where this sort of thing is more common. Also keep in mind Central CA in summer is not Massachusetts in November, weather makes all this 10x worse.
Install labor is relatively cheap but more importantly flexible - relative to the cost of the project install is low double digits %. If a job isn't running smoothly you cut your temps and move your main crew over to another site or send them home if they're local. I would wonder how this work fit in with an automated build/install solution.
Unless you have control at the GC level you're going to be start/stop with electricians cutting trenches in front of you, missing materials (tariffs/port strikes), permitting delays, etc, and you'll have expensive idling equipment that's tough to move.
I get that this is the problem you're trying to solve - but I'd definitely suggest going to enough bread and butter 2-10MW sites where this sort of thing is more common. Also keep in mind Central CA in summer is not Massachusetts in November, weather makes all this 10x worse.
Definitely, we've experienced workers being sent home for a number of reasons (too cold, too windy, too rainy, materials didn't show up as scheduled). Fortunately with an autonomous system there's no logistical overhead, if some external factor prevents us from working then we aren't stuck covering hundreds of per diems and sending everyone home. Yes, we'll have some equipment depreciation as it's not working, but it's at a similar rate to the rented or depreciating trucks/skid steers/telehandlers on existing sites when no one's working them.
Totally hear you on the CA vs MA weather swings (I've lived in both!). We actually see this as a key advantage for us. Sites we've visited in central CA have significant water distribution logistics, frequent shade breaks, and still have high heat exhaustion rates. Sites we've visited in northern climates report about 50% speed reduction in work due to gloves/cold, and will send workers home if the temperatures drop far enough. Our robots can handle both climates without an impact on installation rates (or any of the associated health risks for workers!).
Totally hear you on the CA vs MA weather swings (I've lived in both!). We actually see this as a key advantage for us. Sites we've visited in central CA have significant water distribution logistics, frequent shade breaks, and still have high heat exhaustion rates. Sites we've visited in northern climates report about 50% speed reduction in work due to gloves/cold, and will send workers home if the temperatures drop far enough. Our robots can handle both climates without an impact on installation rates (or any of the associated health risks for workers!).
“Fortunately with an autonomous system there's no logistical overhead”
It might be too early to tell.
Those telehandlers and skidsteers are almost always rentals, so they get called off and picked up at the site. Moving heavy machinery is much more difficult than moving people, and all of your equipment is unique so it’s glued to that job site until it’s complete. Owning your own equipment presents its own set of challenges - you have to store it when it isn’t being utilized, keep excess capacity in case it becomes unavailable, fix/repair on your own, etc. All of the costs in the current installer model, while perhaps higher, are tightly coupled with the cash flows from the job portfolio. This might decouple the cash going out from the cash coming in, to say nothing of the fixed costs of having having hardware/software engineers on staff.
I really want this to succeed so please keep in mind this is just food for thought.
It might be too early to tell.
Those telehandlers and skidsteers are almost always rentals, so they get called off and picked up at the site. Moving heavy machinery is much more difficult than moving people, and all of your equipment is unique so it’s glued to that job site until it’s complete. Owning your own equipment presents its own set of challenges - you have to store it when it isn’t being utilized, keep excess capacity in case it becomes unavailable, fix/repair on your own, etc. All of the costs in the current installer model, while perhaps higher, are tightly coupled with the cash flows from the job portfolio. This might decouple the cash going out from the cash coming in, to say nothing of the fixed costs of having having hardware/software engineers on staff.
I really want this to succeed so please keep in mind this is just food for thought.
Yes! Sorry I explained poorly above, I meant there isn't additional logistical overhead involved in stopping operations for a day for robots, whereas there's tons when workers are involved.
You're dead on with regards to the logistics involved in operating this equipment on site, we'll absolutely be facing each of the challenges you mentioned.
You're dead on with regards to the logistics involved in operating this equipment on site, we'll absolutely be facing each of the challenges you mentioned.
> I meant there isn't additional logistical overhead involved in stopping operations for a day for robots, whereas there's tons when workers are involved.
Time value of money. There is a lot of capital tied up in those machines. If they stop for a day there is no income from that capital.
Does not invalidate your point, but it blunts it
Time value of money. There is a lot of capital tied up in those machines. If they stop for a day there is no income from that capital.
Does not invalidate your point, but it blunts it
I'd call that assumption about logistical over-head highly optimistic. Besides all the manual labor still needed before the mounting structure can go up, you still need to set up your "mobile factory". And if that factory isn't working you still incur the fixed costs of said factory. And as things stand, the most robust, flexible and climate tolerant robot to date is still a human. Especially if sad human labor tends to be comparatively cheap.
EDIT: Autonomous forklifts are old tech by now, most container ports are close to be fully automated as are tons of factories all over the world. Heck, we even have automated lawn mowers and hoovers...
EDIT: Autonomous forklifts are old tech by now, most container ports are close to be fully automated as are tons of factories all over the world. Heck, we even have automated lawn mowers and hoovers...
I was making a much narrower point above, just that there isn't additional overhead involved in shutting down for a day with our system, as opposed to sending hundreds of workers home which does happen today. Absolutely as you mentioned there's overhead in general involved with delivery, setup, teardown, and supervision.
And yes, as you said there is still the lost time value of money associated with any equipment that's not doing productive work.
And yes, as you said there is still the lost time value of money associated with any equipment that's not doing productive work.
"Also keep in mind Central CA in summer is not Massachusetts in November, weather makes all this 10x worse"
Important to keep in mind, but I would suspect(and hope), most solar farms will be installed, where it is sunny and dry.
Important to keep in mind, but I would suspect(and hope), most solar farms will be installed, where it is sunny and dry.
Mostly this is correct. Few exceptions -
Weather patterns on East coast can be unpredictable, much more so than central valley CA. torrential rain = mud leading to bogged down equipment, this can be the difference between a profitable job and unmitigated disaster for an installer.
Second, construction cycles in utility solar can be a bit wonky because of ITC tax credits, lots of turnkey providers looking to have construction starts in q4.
Weather patterns on East coast can be unpredictable, much more so than central valley CA. torrential rain = mud leading to bogged down equipment, this can be the difference between a profitable job and unmitigated disaster for an installer.
Second, construction cycles in utility solar can be a bit wonky because of ITC tax credits, lots of turnkey providers looking to have construction starts in q4.
Nah solar installations work across all weather categories. You just have to manage adverse weather (i.e. additional costs). Some climates have better solar production others have higher costs of energy which solar can undermine.
But they work the most efficient in mainly sunny and arid areas, which is why it might make sense, to focus automatic constraction there and then later also adopt to more harsh conditions.
Amazing. Almost makes me want to move to the states (from NZ) to work with you. Always gratifying to see a job posting where you tick every box.
What a great automation environment! Almost clean-slate too, you don't need to integrate with a patchwork of other solutions that are different per site.
Robots as a service is definitely the way to go. Much lower apparent risk for your clients, less support costs for out of date product you sold early on... many great reasons.
What a great automation environment! Almost clean-slate too, you don't need to integrate with a patchwork of other solutions that are different per site.
Robots as a service is definitely the way to go. Much lower apparent risk for your clients, less support costs for out of date product you sold early on... many great reasons.
Mate, why don't you start something like this in NZ? We totally need more robotic startups IMO.
Years ago I 'worked' at Scott Technologies, around the time they were making this 'smart' straw making machine that had the chocolate/strawberry flavour inside the straw and you just put it in some milk and bam. Really cool going from planning to actually testing the robot (was for some client, can't remember who). I did this while on a high school placement programme in year 13.
I really love robotics, but I moved in a different direction after that!
Years ago I 'worked' at Scott Technologies, around the time they were making this 'smart' straw making machine that had the chocolate/strawberry flavour inside the straw and you just put it in some milk and bam. Really cool going from planning to actually testing the robot (was for some client, can't remember who). I did this while on a high school placement programme in year 13.
I really love robotics, but I moved in a different direction after that!
We have some agricultural robot startups. Have a look around. I think the future of robots doing a lot of on-site moving-stuff-from-A-to-B and looking-at-things tasks in a lot of industries is coming now. It's technologically feasible and traditionally labor heavy work. NZ has mainly ag, so ag robots for us ;) It surely helps that farm labor is expensive and scarce here too. We don't have the luxury of under-the-table Mexican migrant workers.
I agree though that being in NZ seems to stunt you as an engineer. America appears to be overflowing with incredible companies that even normal people, not only "rockstars" can work at.
I agree though that being in NZ seems to stunt you as an engineer. America appears to be overflowing with incredible companies that even normal people, not only "rockstars" can work at.
> America appears to be overflowing with incredible companies that even normal people, not only "rockstars" can work at.
Access to capital. It's obvious that this venture would require huge investment to achieve profitability, way more than has ever been pumped into any kiwi company prior to turning a profit.
Investors here have a much smaller vision.
It's a shame, because this must be one of the worthiest targets for investment ever on the face of it. But it could never get off the ground in NZ.
Access to capital. It's obvious that this venture would require huge investment to achieve profitability, way more than has ever been pumped into any kiwi company prior to turning a profit.
Investors here have a much smaller vision.
It's a shame, because this must be one of the worthiest targets for investment ever on the face of it. But it could never get off the ground in NZ.
Is labor cost a significant obstacle to building solar farms? What % of initial capital goes to labor?
Reports are somewhat varied here but we find that about 10-20% of the overall site cost goes into labor. The bulk of the rest is component cost for solar modules and tracking systems, which are relatively commoditized and so are a thin margin above the cost of the raw materials to make them (silicon, steel). Those costs won't drop unless the underlying materials get cheaper.
We find that beyond the direct cost, the logistics of getting hundreds of people to a remote site is a significant challenge for construction companies. We directly saw how much of a hurdle this can be when we were on a site with the closest city an hour and a half away. Weather conditions are also a factor here, work on the site was actually shut down due to conditions that were too cold for laborers.
As we've interviewed solar construction companies, all of them have told us that they're turning down potential jobs just because they don't have enough people/capacity to build them. Unfortunately they can't simply raise their hourly rate by a few dollars to make this problem go away, because the challenges are more the regional specificity and logistical challenges of getting workers to sites.
We find that beyond the direct cost, the logistics of getting hundreds of people to a remote site is a significant challenge for construction companies. We directly saw how much of a hurdle this can be when we were on a site with the closest city an hour and a half away. Weather conditions are also a factor here, work on the site was actually shut down due to conditions that were too cold for laborers.
As we've interviewed solar construction companies, all of them have told us that they're turning down potential jobs just because they don't have enough people/capacity to build them. Unfortunately they can't simply raise their hourly rate by a few dollars to make this problem go away, because the challenges are more the regional specificity and logistical challenges of getting workers to sites.
I am a little surprised that silicon is still competitive. I had the impression that cadmium telluride was much cheaper, in bulk. Or is it about reliability/lifetime?
(For home use, I worry about my neighborhood becoming a superfund site in event of a fire. I read claims that fire burning the house under CdTe panels will not release the 8g/m^2 of cadmium on them, but don't know how to evaluate that.)
(For home use, I worry about my neighborhood becoming a superfund site in event of a fire. I read claims that fire burning the house under CdTe panels will not release the 8g/m^2 of cadmium on them, but don't know how to evaluate that.)
Yes, silicon is still the majority[1], and it really just boils down to all-in cost. In watts per dollar thin-film ends up being reasonably competitive with silicon, but only because it's manufactured in the US which has steep import tariffs on foreign PV modules.
[1]https://www.usa-cdte.org/
[1]https://www.usa-cdte.org/
Ah, thanks, I missed the tariff bit.
Is the solution than perhaps the rapid build up and turn down of mini cities for workers during the build phase? The problem sounds like Black Rock City public works for solar projects, versus robots for labor needs that can change rapidly (trenching, racking install, panel mounting, etc).
TLDR Worker housing and logistics vs robotics.
TLDR Worker housing and logistics vs robotics.
Black Rock City's DPW for solar is a really interesting idea! Temporary housing is definitely used at times for more remote projects, but it's more expensive than just booking out all the local hotels (of course, once you've saturated hotel rooms you might not have the option).
Fortunately the labor needs are typically predictable, with each step you mentioned happening in parallel across a site spanning 100's or 1000's of acres. One of the main reasons that larger sites are particularly appealing for us is that the work done by our robots is continuously in demand somewhere, as opposed to a small site which might move in more discrete stages and have the rapidly changing needs you mentioned.
Fortunately the labor needs are typically predictable, with each step you mentioned happening in parallel across a site spanning 100's or 1000's of acres. One of the main reasons that larger sites are particularly appealing for us is that the work done by our robots is continuously in demand somewhere, as opposed to a small site which might move in more discrete stages and have the rapidly changing needs you mentioned.
I'm more interested in what kind of possibilities this unlocks. Sure, labor might not be a huge cost in projects at present moment. But that might be because all projects today are happening in places where labor is cheap. What if this unlocks projects in more remote and harsher terrains?
We joke that Mars will be the easiest market for us to penetrate :)
Not really from what I’ve seen. There’s a rabbit hole of research reports, but the key chart is shown here: https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/what-is-a-solar-farm-do-i-...
Maybe 10-15% of total cost depending on install type.
Maybe 10-15% of total cost depending on install type.
This is the real question
From my experience the biggest cost other than Panels and copper wire is the framing and structural infrastructure. Building codes, wind loads, etc. make it so its not as simple as propping up a few panels and plugging them in. It's significant and also cost inefficient in many ways.
Automation + Solar two of my favourite things, honestly! Congrats on getting this far.
Have you considered, or have views on, the scope for using telerobotics in this field as a step to full automation? Point being the qualified labour could be anywhere in the world for a particular job and the data generated from that could be used towards the drive for full automation.
Have you considered, or have views on, the scope for using telerobotics in this field as a step to full automation? Point being the qualified labour could be anywhere in the world for a particular job and the data generated from that could be used towards the drive for full automation.
Teleoperation is on our radar, especially for getting robots un-stuck when they are confused about a particular situation. Our vision is that a single remote operator can monitor an entire fleet of robots, stepping in to resolve confusing situations as necessary. We've seen this model deployed at other robotics companies like Third Wave Automation [1] and Teleo [2].
[1] https://www.thirdwave.ai/ [2] http://www.teleo.ai/
[1] https://www.thirdwave.ai/ [2] http://www.teleo.ai/
I wonder to what degree construction of solar farms over pasture could be automated. It seems like an easy competitive advantage over single-use: there is already revenue on the parcel, grass yield is increased because of reduced heat stress, evaporation is reduced, and generation efficiency is higher. Maybe combined with water collection, cutting erosion?
Sharing with row crops seems like the next level, where you probably need to share with irrigation and harvesting equipment. In the near future, production of NH3 on-site for fertilizer and fuel when grid price bottoms might become practical.
Sharing with row crops seems like the next level, where you probably need to share with irrigation and harvesting equipment. In the near future, production of NH3 on-site for fertilizer and fuel when grid price bottoms might become practical.
This seems to be the same age-old problem of construction automation. A system that can really deliver for solar farms could be adapted for many other construction types, at least in principle. Since the world has largely failed to automate construction, and not for lack of trying, you really have to wonder if a startup could really disrupt the field, and I say that as an automation engineer.
The Construction Physics blog is mandatory lecture on this subject. You will find the many and varied ways huge companies failed at automating construction, and why construction is just different than other fields:
https://constructionphysics.substack.com/p/where-are-the-rob...
https://constructionphysics.substack.com/p/why-did-agricultu...
https://constructionphysics.substack.com/p/japans-skyscraper...
The Construction Physics blog is mandatory lecture on this subject. You will find the many and varied ways huge companies failed at automating construction, and why construction is just different than other fields:
https://constructionphysics.substack.com/p/where-are-the-rob...
https://constructionphysics.substack.com/p/why-did-agricultu...
https://constructionphysics.substack.com/p/japans-skyscraper...
I disagree that this is the same age-old problem. Automation in construction has failed more often than not in scenarios that require a high-level of engineering and/or exhibit complex tasking on-site. Your second listed article provides a good rationale for the failure of automation to infiltrate construction: mechanization. Many of the on-site build requirements for construction application are much more complicated and intricate than some of the motions required for agricultural automation. Furthermore, process design in construction is human-centric with a wide gap to transition to automation-centric design. This is well-outlined in your third article e.g. setup/tear-down costs, robot unfriendly environments, start-stop processes.
However, Charge Robotics has a problem that is generally free of much of the above hindrances and is employing a modular approach. Modular construction can lend itself very well to automation. See the modular housing boom that employs automation quite heavily.
One of the more complex construction portions of the build is handled by a portable factory:
"First, a portable robotic factory placed on-site assembles sections of racking hardware and solar modules. This factory fits inside a shipping container. Robotic arms pick up solar modules from a stack and fasten them to a long metal tube (the "torque tube")."
This process could also employ human labor as well. The rest of the build process requires a more simple transfer of these pre-built components with a final assembly:
"Second, autonomous delivery vehicles distribute these assembled sections into the field and fasten them in place onto target destination piles."
The locations of operation are large open fields with minimal occlusion (which often makes robots in many construction settings infeasible) and reuses prior equipment (bankability and minimizes setup/tear down costs).
I don't think this is an easy problem as there are significant technical engineering requirements, but if each modular process can be proven effective, then the external factors that prohibit automation adoption in construction outlined above are fairly minimal.
However, Charge Robotics has a problem that is generally free of much of the above hindrances and is employing a modular approach. Modular construction can lend itself very well to automation. See the modular housing boom that employs automation quite heavily.
One of the more complex construction portions of the build is handled by a portable factory:
"First, a portable robotic factory placed on-site assembles sections of racking hardware and solar modules. This factory fits inside a shipping container. Robotic arms pick up solar modules from a stack and fasten them to a long metal tube (the "torque tube")."
This process could also employ human labor as well. The rest of the build process requires a more simple transfer of these pre-built components with a final assembly:
"Second, autonomous delivery vehicles distribute these assembled sections into the field and fasten them in place onto target destination piles."
The locations of operation are large open fields with minimal occlusion (which often makes robots in many construction settings infeasible) and reuses prior equipment (bankability and minimizes setup/tear down costs).
I don't think this is an easy problem as there are significant technical engineering requirements, but if each modular process can be proven effective, then the external factors that prohibit automation adoption in construction outlined above are fairly minimal.
Thanks for putting this together! This is basically what we would've written. There are many aspects of solar construction that make it a much more robot-friendly environment to operate in than that of a generic construction site (detailed engineering drawings with GPS locations of piles, graded terrain, low number of obstacles). And as you mentioned, we're eliminating a lot of variables by bringing a portable factory onto the site.
Gotta look out for my fellow roboticists ;)
Cost optimized construction switched to large concrete elements in the sixties or so, so brick layers were obsoleted by that. Also a lot less concrete casting is needed.
Also bathrooms started arriving as ready made modules etc. The factories that make these, I assume they actually are quite automated?
Also bathrooms started arriving as ready made modules etc. The factories that make these, I assume they actually are quite automated?
Excellent idea! The videos are a bit underwhelming - more context would be helpful. On the other hand, I really like that you're doing actual work in the field instead of making 3d animations. I really like also that this seems to be such a small scope. You are using existing solar panels and hardware, just the assembly is automated.
I guess the biggest questions are:
1. are telehandlers precise enough for final assembly on their own without humans? 2. if you need humans too, can they safely co-operate with the robots? 3. if you need humans too, how much will this save on workforce needs in the end?
I guess the biggest questions are:
1. are telehandlers precise enough for final assembly on their own without humans? 2. if you need humans too, can they safely co-operate with the robots? 3. if you need humans too, how much will this save on workforce needs in the end?
Very cool. Great to see fellow robotics starters on HN! How are you connecting the solar modules, electrically?
Also, I didn't see on your page anything about remote work. I understand why that might not be in the cards for robotics work, but is that the case for Charge?
Also, I didn't see on your page anything about remote work. I understand why that might not be in the cards for robotics work, but is that the case for Charge?
> Great to see fellow robotics starters on HN!
Yes! We are excited every time we see a robotics company show up on HN :)
> How are you connecting the solar modules, electrically?
Right now we are focused on nailing mechanical installation, and are leaving electrical installation to a separate team of subcontractors. That said, we do want to tackle this problem in the future, and have some ideas on how to make the make the electrical connectors on solar modules more suitable for robotic manipulation. The standard PV connectors today are comically bad for handling by robots, dangling loosely from wires on the back of the module.
> Also, I didn't see on your page anything about remote work. I understand why that might not be in the cards for robotics work, but is that the case for Charge?
There's enough hands-on work involving the robot that we aren't quite ready to bring on full-time remote workers yet. As we grow, this is something we will become more open to.
Yes! We are excited every time we see a robotics company show up on HN :)
> How are you connecting the solar modules, electrically?
Right now we are focused on nailing mechanical installation, and are leaving electrical installation to a separate team of subcontractors. That said, we do want to tackle this problem in the future, and have some ideas on how to make the make the electrical connectors on solar modules more suitable for robotic manipulation. The standard PV connectors today are comically bad for handling by robots, dangling loosely from wires on the back of the module.
> Also, I didn't see on your page anything about remote work. I understand why that might not be in the cards for robotics work, but is that the case for Charge?
There's enough hands-on work involving the robot that we aren't quite ready to bring on full-time remote workers yet. As we grow, this is something we will become more open to.
> The standard PV connectors today are comically bad for handling by robots, dangling loosely from wires on the back of the module.
Yeah, I made some machines that attached those harnesses in a prior life. My condolences. ;)
> There's enough hands-on work involving the robot that we aren't quite ready to bring on full-time remote workers yet. As we grow, this is something we will become more open to.
Not unexpected, but still sad. That said, I love what you all are doing and will keep you in mind!
Yeah, I made some machines that attached those harnesses in a prior life. My condolences. ;)
> There's enough hands-on work involving the robot that we aren't quite ready to bring on full-time remote workers yet. As we grow, this is something we will become more open to.
Not unexpected, but still sad. That said, I love what you all are doing and will keep you in mind!
Hey guys! I'm so excited to see your launch HN! We chatted about your who's hiring thread middle of last year when you were in stealth mode. I still think this is such an epic idea, very happy to see you succeeding.
Can't wait to see what comes next!
Can't wait to see what comes next!
Thanks! Great to hear from you (assuming I don't miss my guess from your username), hope everything's been going well for you. Looking forward to staying in touch as we make progress!
Wow, this is huge.
As an innocent little child I dreamed of a world where robots will produce all life essential things, primarily food, houses (shelter). Apparently here we have Robots building energy supply.
I also thought that the robots will have to be built by someone and their work wouldn't be free. As a kid I didn't have a solution for that.
We shouldn't equip the robots with to much AI though otherwise they will start to form a league and claim minimal wages ...
As an innocent little child I dreamed of a world where robots will produce all life essential things, primarily food, houses (shelter). Apparently here we have Robots building energy supply.
I also thought that the robots will have to be built by someone and their work wouldn't be free. As a kid I didn't have a solution for that.
We shouldn't equip the robots with to much AI though otherwise they will start to form a league and claim minimal wages ...
Since you say it's a risk averse sector. Do you think you will need to do the entire process (building the solar farm) or do you expect that companies that build solar farms will hire your robots for part of the process? Or are you aiming for an acquisition?
We're operating as a subcontractor for existing large construction firms, where we come in and do the mechanical construction step.
In general robotics companies need to pick between "sell robots" or "operate robots as a service", and we've picked the latter model. Personally I think that throwing robots over the fence to a customer typically results in more headaches on both sides. Instead, we deliver mechanically assembled solar farms to construction companies, and they don't need to worry about how we got there - just that we did it quickly, efficiently, and spared them the staffing logistics.
Re:acquisition, we believe we can become a significantly profitable company operating independently. If we can become the best way of building solar, we'll be in a great position to sell services to all of the existing large solar construction companies.
In general robotics companies need to pick between "sell robots" or "operate robots as a service", and we've picked the latter model. Personally I think that throwing robots over the fence to a customer typically results in more headaches on both sides. Instead, we deliver mechanically assembled solar farms to construction companies, and they don't need to worry about how we got there - just that we did it quickly, efficiently, and spared them the staffing logistics.
Re:acquisition, we believe we can become a significantly profitable company operating independently. If we can become the best way of building solar, we'll be in a great position to sell services to all of the existing large solar construction companies.
This is awesome! That [location redacted] video is very cool.
Love that Bill Withers soundtrack!
I also work in the "robots for PV" space, it's just the place to be. Good luck!
I also work in the "robots for PV" space, it's just the place to be. Good luck!
Firstly this is what I call "field into factory" - robots have transformed the internal buildings environment but barely made any in-roads to the outside. I am not sure about this particular business case but this is the direction of travel for the future.
second, amazing stuff guys - keep on going!
second, amazing stuff guys - keep on going!
Congratulations Banks and Max, this is excellent!
-Dane
-Dane
Dane! Good to hear from you, and thanks!
Cool stuff! Would love to see a drone shot and/or time-lapse of an solar farm installation.
We have a video with some drone shots of pallet unloading/staging here! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9MLKmfmR30
This is super cool! I'm curious how much of a problem the policy side of things is here? My impression is that some of these projects fail because of NIMBYism and long lawsuits over land use and the like (despite the net positive climate impact).
This definitely comes up. Some communities are more receptive to solar than others, and it is important that the local community buys into a project before it gets built. We've definitely passed by signs in the lawns of local residents unhappy about the project being built next door.
We are fortunate in that those sorts of problems are actually largely the responsibility of the solar project developer, whose job it is to finance the project, get land rights, do the appropriate environmental/interconnect studies, and build relationships with the community. The developer lets the construction company (and us) focus on building the project. But it's an excellent question.
We are fortunate in that those sorts of problems are actually largely the responsibility of the solar project developer, whose job it is to finance the project, get land rights, do the appropriate environmental/interconnect studies, and build relationships with the community. The developer lets the construction company (and us) focus on building the project. But it's an excellent question.
Unlike Wind I do not understand who in their right mind opposes solar projects. It is mostly a static piece of flat construction with hardly any rise sitting on private land.
Should we do this? My understanding is that solar installation is the next (semi?) skilled labor that could potentially be careers for many people.
It doesn't seem to be the most socially stable thing to cut out humans from this job market before it really booms.
It doesn't seem to be the most socially stable thing to cut out humans from this job market before it really booms.
It's a good question. When you look at why utility-scale solar construction isn't happening fast enough, you quickly find that there are fundamental scaling problems associated with getting hundreds of people to very remote construction sites every day for the duration of a project -- and these problems get worse as the sites get larger and more remote. While our robots will reduce the number of people required to build a given MW of solar capacity, increasing the labor supply will dramatically grow the number of solar installations happening overall each year, and with it create a lot of skilled construction jobs.
> My understanding is that solar installation is the next (semi?) skilled labor that could potentially be careers for many people.
This is partially true -- a lot of the more specialized solar jobs show up in the residential solar market, which is growing quite quickly (residential solar grew 30% in 2021 over 2020). The training period for the tasks we're performing on large-scale sites is a couple of days.
> My understanding is that solar installation is the next (semi?) skilled labor that could potentially be careers for many people.
This is partially true -- a lot of the more specialized solar jobs show up in the residential solar market, which is growing quite quickly (residential solar grew 30% in 2021 over 2020). The training period for the tasks we're performing on large-scale sites is a couple of days.
Weirdly one of the reasons for rapid growth of solar in India was the widely available cheap semi skilled labor. The stringent regulations in US and elsewhere seems to make this a much bigger challenge i guess.
I would imagine this works best for large scale projects that are on nice flat land?
So plenty of room for humans to handle smaller/trickier projects. And of course to look after the machines that are doing the work.
Turning a blind eye to climate friendly tech for fear of losing (potential) future jobs doesn't seem wise, and it's irrelevant anyway in our capitalist society where someone else will just follow the money and step straight into your place.
So plenty of room for humans to handle smaller/trickier projects. And of course to look after the machines that are doing the work.
Turning a blind eye to climate friendly tech for fear of losing (potential) future jobs doesn't seem wise, and it's irrelevant anyway in our capitalist society where someone else will just follow the money and step straight into your place.
Using a mouse sensor — made me smile. Best kind of solutions. Great concept, keep it up!
Will your system be robust to changes in solar farm design? Like if the industry goes towards the Erthos model of installing panels on the ground without racking or trackers?
Single-axis tracked solar isn't going anywhere anytime soon, but we are going to have to adapt if and when the industry changes. We're building relatively generic robotic primitives that should be useful for many different types of system.
I like this idea although labour is not the bottleneck, at least not in Spain. Any advance in robotics is a big plus to humanity. Hope you make it work very soon.
Congrats on the progress. Solid music choice in the videos!
Aside from labor replacement and the implied capital efficiency, are there other benefits automation can bring to solar installations?
Absolutely. A couple that we're closely looking at:
Better documentation/data/insight into exactly what was built when, install rates, fuel consumption, and vehicle utilization during construction. Having our robots take a timestamped picture of every bolt that's installed is a significant win for construction companies in case any warranty issues come up after install. Currently there's not much visibility into exactly what was built where/when, so concrete data here will help significantly with scheduling/planning. We can actually generate a live updating map of the solar farm as it's being built.
Nighttime operation. Currently, all tasks on the site are performed during the day, so any amount of work we can shift to night time reduces site congestion. This actually can speed up the overall installation, as right now there's limited space between rows of panels, and multiple teams/vehicles trying to navigate through them simultaneously. We think of nighttime operation as analogous to parallelization as tasks that workers were waiting on can be performed asynchronously.
Better documentation/data/insight into exactly what was built when, install rates, fuel consumption, and vehicle utilization during construction. Having our robots take a timestamped picture of every bolt that's installed is a significant win for construction companies in case any warranty issues come up after install. Currently there's not much visibility into exactly what was built where/when, so concrete data here will help significantly with scheduling/planning. We can actually generate a live updating map of the solar farm as it's being built.
Nighttime operation. Currently, all tasks on the site are performed during the day, so any amount of work we can shift to night time reduces site congestion. This actually can speed up the overall installation, as right now there's limited space between rows of panels, and multiple teams/vehicles trying to navigate through them simultaneously. We think of nighttime operation as analogous to parallelization as tasks that workers were waiting on can be performed asynchronously.
How can I invest?
if you'd like to know where your bots are with CM accuracy and you've already got GPS coordinates, we can make your life a lot easier with our robotic-specific location API. https://pointonenav.com/polaris
if you'd like to know where your bots are with CM accuracy and you've already got GPS coordinates, we can make your life a lot easier with Point One Navigation.
This sounds awesome and it’s great that Solar is so cheap. But if it’s only available several hours in the day at best is it really that practical? Or am I just misinformed and we have grid scale storage already?
A dollar spent on renewables is still better spent on generating capacity, most places, even if peak power is given away part of every day.
Storage cost is falling even faster than solar ever did, so waiting until next year gets you more storage for the price. Also, transmission to local storage is low-loss, so you don't strictly need to be responsible for both. Finally, demand for peak generation will only increase as synthesis (H2, NH3, etc.) capacity comes online. Stockpiled H2 and NH3 will prove entirely adequate as bulk storage despite their low round-trip efficiency, given just a few hours of a better alternative, and anyway that efficiency will only ever improve.
The main attraction of H2 and NH3 storage, despite current lossiness, is that the equipment can operate even after the tanks are full, because there will be unlimited demand for both, for a long time. That is, anytime you are not actually drawing down stored energy, the expensive synthesis equipment can be producing to sell, producing revenue. Similarly for liquified air (N2, really).
Storage cost is falling even faster than solar ever did, so waiting until next year gets you more storage for the price. Also, transmission to local storage is low-loss, so you don't strictly need to be responsible for both. Finally, demand for peak generation will only increase as synthesis (H2, NH3, etc.) capacity comes online. Stockpiled H2 and NH3 will prove entirely adequate as bulk storage despite their low round-trip efficiency, given just a few hours of a better alternative, and anyway that efficiency will only ever improve.
The main attraction of H2 and NH3 storage, despite current lossiness, is that the equipment can operate even after the tanks are full, because there will be unlimited demand for both, for a long time. That is, anytime you are not actually drawing down stored energy, the expensive synthesis equipment can be producing to sell, producing revenue. Similarly for liquified air (N2, really).
Your intuition is right that storage is important for renewables -- fortunately grid scale batteries exist and are increasingly popular! At the end of 2020, 34% of solar projects under development were being co-located with battery storage in the US. [1]
If you're curious, Bloomberg has a nice summary [2] where they talk about how much more battery storage the world will need in a future that relies heavily on renewables (it's a lot -- see page 4 specifically).
[1] https://eta-publications.lbl.gov/sites/default/files/2021.04... [2] https://assets.bbhub.io/professional/sites/24/NEO-Executive-...
If you're curious, Bloomberg has a nice summary [2] where they talk about how much more battery storage the world will need in a future that relies heavily on renewables (it's a lot -- see page 4 specifically).
[1] https://eta-publications.lbl.gov/sites/default/files/2021.04... [2] https://assets.bbhub.io/professional/sites/24/NEO-Executive-...
Tracking solar systems can deliver 5-hours of generation. Solar and wind is for super cheap bulk energy. Solar is delivering the cheapest energy in history. Then we use a portfolio of other resources for balancing - grid interconnections; short and long-duration storage including pumped hydro; load flex; and bio-fuel, electro-fuel, and natural gas generators very occasionally.
We just got back from our first demo on a 150MW solar construction site, where we showed off our initial prototype: an autonomous forklift that unloads pallets of solar modules from a truck and stages them around the site. It’s a huge milestone for us, and we felt like now would be a good time to share what we’re working on more publicly. You can see a couple videos of our robot in action here:
Staging modules on the site: https://youtu.be/Fwf4v8upuoI
Performing a two-pallet sliding and unloading operation in our warehouse: https://youtu.be/EOJiyMXpVeQ
As solar modules have become commoditized and prices have plummeted, solar has become the cheapest form of power generation in many regions. Demand has skyrocketed, and now the primary barrier to getting it installed is labor logistics and bandwidth. Every solar construction company we've talked to is drowning in demand and turning down projects because they don't have the capacity to build them. 1/5th of all the solar that exists in the US was installed last year!
We're engineers who have been friends since living together at MIT where we studied robotics and CS. We always wanted to start a company together. We zeroed in on solar after seeing compelling statistics about its cost effectiveness and projected growth – and because we shared a motivation to do something about climate change. We actually started out writing software to predict optimal locations for solar sites (searching land for sale and scoring by price, amount of sunlight, proximity to existing substations) when we decided to learn more about what comes next.
Utility-scale solar farms (2MW+) are mechanically quite simple. They feature a steel racking system held to the ground by vertical posts ("piles"), and overwhelmingly (90%+) feature a single motorized axis to track the sun over the course of the day. Modules are then fastened to this axis with brackets.
We're using a two-part robotic system to build this racking structure. First, a portable robotic factory placed on-site assembles sections of racking hardware and solar modules. This factory fits inside a shipping container. Robotic arms pick up solar modules from a stack and fasten them to a long metal tube (the "torque tube"). Second, autonomous delivery vehicles distribute these assembled sections into the field and fasten them in place onto target destination piles.
This is a hard technical problem, but not research-level hard. We think of it as the "homework version" of self-driving cars, as we're operating in a semi-structured environment (flattened dirt field) with drastically fewer edge cases. Manual construction today breaks about 0.1%-0.5% of modules during installation, which is an easier bar for us to target than the stringent performance requirements of the AV world.
We're operating in a risk-averse industry, though, which makes deploying new technology more challenging. One industry-standard term we've become very familiar with is "bankability". It's difficult for projects to secure funding from lenders if they aren't using parts that have already spent years out in the field.
We've seen surprisingly little penetration of technology into this space in general. Projects are largely tracked with sticky notes in a "command room", material delivery schedules are highly volatile and often not known until days in advance, and there's no live monitoring of construction progress, making current status opaque. We actually had a site we visited outright lose a forklift – we were surprised that all vehicles aren't GPS tagged and monitored, especially given they're operating on multi-thousand acre sites.
Our system is the first to handle the full mechanical installation of existing solar components (remember bankability). We've tweaked the order of construction operations slightly to be more robot-friendly, as the more precise operations involved in fastening modules to steel tubes happen in a more controlled factory environment.
For our mobile robots, we’re building on top of existing vehicles (called telehandlers, or reach lifts) which are already ubiquitous on these sites due to their enormous tires and broad capabilities. They're able to unload shipping containers due to their extending boom, as well as move materials around the site. On our prototype vehicle, we did some significant up-front reverse engineering including mapping out CAN messages sans documentation. The steering and brake were directly hydraulically actuated (no drive-by-wire), so we added motors to both in order to control them with our software stack. The most unique sensor we contributed was an optical mouse sensor mounted onto the boom joint, telling us the extension distance.
The backbone of our robotic sensing is a robust vision system. We're using stereo cameras for SLAM and object detection. Fortunately, solar construction sites already have detailed engineering drawings including GPS coordinates of each vertical post in the ground, so we have a detailed map of the site to localize ourselves on.
Watching the existing process for large-scale solar installation in real time evokes the sense of watching paint dry or grass grow, only it involves hundreds of workers. After witnessing the physically grueling and inefficient process of workers manually installing thousands of solar modules, we realized there had to be a better way of building solar, and that increased automation was the way forward.
Our goal is to transition the world to renewable energy as quickly as possible. We’re excited to share what we’re working on with HN - please let us know what you think in the comments and we’ll be around to respond!
P.S. We’re hiring! If you want to work on cool robots with a positive climate impact, please reach out: https://chargerobotics.com/careers.html