5-min breathing workout lowers blood pressure as much as exercise, drugs (2021)(colorado.edu)
colorado.edu
5-min breathing workout lowers blood pressure as much as exercise, drugs (2021)
https://www.colorado.edu/today/2021/06/29/5-minute-breathing-workout-lowers-blood-pressure-much-exercise-drugs
240 comments
I got a pulse oximeter a couple years ago too, and it was eye opening (before COVID, and I didn't get COVID).
The realtime feedback is useful and actionable. Breathing more slowly, exhaling more than inhaling (counterintuitive), pausing, and breathing through the nose definitely make a difference for me.
But everyone is a little different so you have to experiment. Breathing is very multidimensional and hard to explain. The Nestor book is a good intro, and I've mentioned it on HN a few times before.
I'm a big believer now. It is almost laughably simple, and I have to cite the fact the fact that no company profits if you breathe better, sleep better, etc. It's a trite saying but true ...
The realtime feedback is useful and actionable. Breathing more slowly, exhaling more than inhaling (counterintuitive), pausing, and breathing through the nose definitely make a difference for me.
But everyone is a little different so you have to experiment. Breathing is very multidimensional and hard to explain. The Nestor book is a good intro, and I've mentioned it on HN a few times before.
I'm a big believer now. It is almost laughably simple, and I have to cite the fact the fact that no company profits if you breathe better, sleep better, etc. It's a trite saying but true ...
You should get a sleep study as well. It's amazing how little oxygen you can get when you sleep. Cpap sucks to wear at night, but it forces you to take the same breathing techniques. Just avoid philips products and go resmed.
This is why I enjoyed the "tape over mouth" tip by nestor. I was a mouth breather and would not feel very rested because of it. When breathing through nose only, I felt so refreshed as if I got more oxygen.
Was it Nestor that buys into the "acid diet" idea that has been debunked?
If your oxygen level is varying significantly while at rest, you are very out of shape aerobically, and you should be getting more exercise, not obsessing about your breathing patterns.
While it's clear exercise is good for everyone, this statement is not well informed.
For example, oxygen saturation monitoring revealed my at-rest breathing reflex is completely broken due to a known genetic flaw. You know the memes about 'your breathing is now under conscious control'? Mine actually is.
That led to a sleep study-- and, yup, I don't breathe when I'm asleep. I wake every two or three minutes, all night, take a few breaths, and go back to sleep. And have all my life. The mystery of why I'm 'such a light sleeper' also revealed.
Doc I saw about it remarked the mutation is probably more widespread then we know because 'no one is looking for it'. It also completely freaked out a few anesthesiologists.
[There are other reflexes around breathing, and no, I can't just hold me breath as long as I want. The physiological reminders to breathe are pretty strong! But I routinely see my SP02 at rest drop below 70.]
For example, oxygen saturation monitoring revealed my at-rest breathing reflex is completely broken due to a known genetic flaw. You know the memes about 'your breathing is now under conscious control'? Mine actually is.
That led to a sleep study-- and, yup, I don't breathe when I'm asleep. I wake every two or three minutes, all night, take a few breaths, and go back to sleep. And have all my life. The mystery of why I'm 'such a light sleeper' also revealed.
Doc I saw about it remarked the mutation is probably more widespread then we know because 'no one is looking for it'. It also completely freaked out a few anesthesiologists.
[There are other reflexes around breathing, and no, I can't just hold me breath as long as I want. The physiological reminders to breathe are pretty strong! But I routinely see my SP02 at rest drop below 70.]
Is this true? I run ~15 miles a week, play pickup basketball 2x a week, and lift weights 3x a week. My oxygen levels can vary 2-5% depending on circadian rhythm at rest. When doing these breathing exercises, I can stabilize it at higher levels. That's at least my experience with it.
You say “their technique” and “this new tool”. For someone who hasn’t read Hof and Nestor, could you point to any resources explaining the specific techniques you are referring to? If I go down the Google/YT rabbit hole, I fear I’ll be confronted with hundreds of such techniques and just get utterly confused. Thank you.
Breath: the new science of a lost art, by James Nestor (book; helped me switch fully to nasal breathing, practicing better posture, warm myself when I'm cold, and breathing with my whole torso rather than just belly)
Becoming the Iceman: pushing past perceived limits, by Wim Hof (book, but I've only listened to his breathing exercises for warming the body)
Becoming the Iceman: pushing past perceived limits, by Wim Hof (book, but I've only listened to his breathing exercises for warming the body)
I was curious too. Taken from [0], not my knowledge or opinions. (I'm new to all of this.)
- James Nestor - Breath:
"I love this book and it‘s more a kind of overview about different breathing systems and techniques. He writes about Wim Hof and also about Oxygen Advantage. It‘s a good starting point into the topic of breathing. Highly recommended."
"Breathe is like a pop sci intro to breathing. It covers a lot and not very deeply, but it is engaging, makes a good case, and have a few actionable things that have a larger payoff (mouth tape)."
- Patrick McKeown - Oxygen Advantage:
"The base of this book is the Buteyko method and Patrick follows a very scientific approach. He can explain all hows and whys without beeing to complicated. Also highly recommended. You will find breath holds and reduced breathing in different techniques. Focus is on sports and conditioning. Highly recommended."
"O2 Advantage goes a lot deeper and helps you systematically evaluate and improve your co2 tolerance and thereby improve your body's ability to use oxygen. If I only could recommend one of these three, it would be this one with Breathe as a close second (simply because it is so accessible). It gives clear guidelines, tests, and actionable steps to improve your breathing. It is a very useful book."
- Wim Hof - The Wim Hof Method:
"It’s basically about breathing, cold exposure and the mind. The breathing work is about overbreathing (hyperventilation) followed by a breathhold. There are times that I love it, but science is mostly against it. I guess nobody knows why this works. Pavel is against breath holds after hyperventilation by the way (SECOND WIND). But there are lots of people having success using the WHM. I can also recommend the newest book."
"Wim Hof. It mainly focuses on a intense breathing technique and cold exposure. I know a lot of people that swear by them. I've never had any benefits from them that I could tell. After talking to some people that were really into this, they pointed out that I'm way more stressed all the time than they are. Adding more stress when you are already at max doesn't exactly help and probably hurts (more info here). This is my least favorite of the three as it has a very narrow benefit and that benefit isn't applicable to a lot of people. since it is basically a book on how to increase stress levels through breathing and cold."
[0] https://www.strongfirst.com/community/threads/james-nestor%E...
- James Nestor - Breath:
"I love this book and it‘s more a kind of overview about different breathing systems and techniques. He writes about Wim Hof and also about Oxygen Advantage. It‘s a good starting point into the topic of breathing. Highly recommended."
"Breathe is like a pop sci intro to breathing. It covers a lot and not very deeply, but it is engaging, makes a good case, and have a few actionable things that have a larger payoff (mouth tape)."
- Patrick McKeown - Oxygen Advantage:
"The base of this book is the Buteyko method and Patrick follows a very scientific approach. He can explain all hows and whys without beeing to complicated. Also highly recommended. You will find breath holds and reduced breathing in different techniques. Focus is on sports and conditioning. Highly recommended."
"O2 Advantage goes a lot deeper and helps you systematically evaluate and improve your co2 tolerance and thereby improve your body's ability to use oxygen. If I only could recommend one of these three, it would be this one with Breathe as a close second (simply because it is so accessible). It gives clear guidelines, tests, and actionable steps to improve your breathing. It is a very useful book."
- Wim Hof - The Wim Hof Method:
"It’s basically about breathing, cold exposure and the mind. The breathing work is about overbreathing (hyperventilation) followed by a breathhold. There are times that I love it, but science is mostly against it. I guess nobody knows why this works. Pavel is against breath holds after hyperventilation by the way (SECOND WIND). But there are lots of people having success using the WHM. I can also recommend the newest book."
"Wim Hof. It mainly focuses on a intense breathing technique and cold exposure. I know a lot of people that swear by them. I've never had any benefits from them that I could tell. After talking to some people that were really into this, they pointed out that I'm way more stressed all the time than they are. Adding more stress when you are already at max doesn't exactly help and probably hurts (more info here). This is my least favorite of the three as it has a very narrow benefit and that benefit isn't applicable to a lot of people. since it is basically a book on how to increase stress levels through breathing and cold."
[0] https://www.strongfirst.com/community/threads/james-nestor%E...
You could start by reading about Wim Hof (a person) and his "Wim Hof Method": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof
wim-hof is a life saver. I used during my covid battle as well. I had this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tybOi4hjZFQ on loop when I was suffering with covid
Thanks for this. My pensioner mother came back from the doctors yesterday with a chest infection, on top of this she has mild bronchitis. I've just sent her this exercises as I'm hoping it might improve her lung health. Although i did send her this one which is a bit easier: https://youtu.be/0BNejY1e9ik
But thanks for posting it, I never knew about this method. Just tried it myself and it rocks.
Wow, I can't thank you enough for posting this.
I've been struggling with hypertension and anxiety for a very long time. I just tried the beginner exercise and couldn't believe the effect.
Not only could I hold my breath for longer then I was ever able to on my first try but also I felt relaxed and happy at the end of the exercise.
Thank you!!!
Not only could I hold my breath for longer then I was ever able to on my first try but also I felt relaxed and happy at the end of the exercise.
Thank you!!!
Wim-Hof almost killed me (that exact video). Please don't try it until you are in a state you can comfortably sustain 1+ minute lack of oxygen.
Wim Hof is really good, the calmness you feel after the breathing is unmatched.
There all these small techniques for managing emotions that are just not well known. If you need to calm down in the moment for example, doing a simple inhale for 4 seconds, hold for 2, exhale for 8 can make your stress melt away. Or in really stressful situations, try grabbing an icepack and holding it for a minute.
There all these small techniques for managing emotions that are just not well known. If you need to calm down in the moment for example, doing a simple inhale for 4 seconds, hold for 2, exhale for 8 can make your stress melt away. Or in really stressful situations, try grabbing an icepack and holding it for a minute.
The article is about IMST, which is strictly about muscle strengthening. This is maybe a side effect of the Wim Hoff Method, but the WHM also has other purposes because the main mechanism is hyper ventilation and breath holding. Here is good medical explanation of what happens when practicing the WMH (by a medical professional): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6EPuUdIC1E (summary at 33:46).
When I worked on Mt Erebus we used to play pulseox bingo: see who could match their O2 saturation to their pulse at the lowest or highest value.
I also watched Wim Hof on youtube during the pandemic, he even made a video regarding Covid at that time
Well, I never really got Covid myself, I feel good knowing your recovery experience with that method
Now, I should start using Wim Hof or similar method already
Well, I never really got Covid myself, I feel good knowing your recovery experience with that method
Now, I should start using Wim Hof or similar method already
Do you have a cheat sheet or video we can watch to get the gist? Thanks!
do you mean it increased your running time?
Yes sorry. I used the wrong word. It had a negative effect on my running time up to 20%. In my case it added two minutes to my 10 minute mile average. It took me awhile to get back to normal.
>their techniques
can you link to the exact regimen? tia
can you link to the exact regimen? tia
https://www.wimhofmethod.com/breathing-exercises (YouTube video is best)
Nestor stuff is short. Breathe through nose, tape your mouth, right nostril inhale/left exhale.
Nestor stuff is short. Breathe through nose, tape your mouth, right nostril inhale/left exhale.
By "tape your mouth", James Nestor suggests taping the mouth shut while sleeping, to condition the nose (extra benefit of not drying out the gums--my dentist approves). It took months of applying a thin strip of tape vertically across my lips (surgical tape, easy to pull off if needed, but it never came to that), and now I habitually breathe through my nose at night instead of my mouth, and can nose-breathe all day, too, where before I'd need some mouth-breaths in a panic.
The switching-nostils breathing is just one way to practice (there's a list at the back of the book). If anything, best practice for oxygenation and venting C02 seems to be inhaling over 5-6 seconds and exhaling for the same or slightly longer. The more-recent book Breath Taking by Michael Stephen backs this up.
The switching-nostils breathing is just one way to practice (there's a list at the back of the book). If anything, best practice for oxygenation and venting C02 seems to be inhaling over 5-6 seconds and exhaling for the same or slightly longer. The more-recent book Breath Taking by Michael Stephen backs this up.
The only beef i have with Wim Hof is he says one's attitude matter in following his method. He says a person should be open minded and accept without ego, something along those lines. The problem is its not quantifiable and kind of cop-out, so I don't take it too seriously.
himyogi(7)
> not necessarily meant to replace exercise
I'm hoping someone can answer a question to which I've never heard a really satisfactory answer: Why does human health benefit from exercise whereas any kind of simple machine wears out with exercise? For example, doing a hundred stretches per day improves my health whereas stretching an elastic band 100 times per day will cause it to lose elasticity and soon destroy it. So what's the low-level mechanism by which exercise improves health in people but not in simple machines?
I'm hoping someone can answer a question to which I've never heard a really satisfactory answer: Why does human health benefit from exercise whereas any kind of simple machine wears out with exercise? For example, doing a hundred stretches per day improves my health whereas stretching an elastic band 100 times per day will cause it to lose elasticity and soon destroy it. So what's the low-level mechanism by which exercise improves health in people but not in simple machines?
When recovering after exercise, the body does something called overcompensating. It doesn't just repair the damage done but actually strengthens the area. Muscles undergo hypertrophy and bone becomes more dense. So when you challenge the body physically a moderate amount, something called functional overreaching, your body responds by actually strengthening itself. Obviously inanimate objects don't have this system so they simply wear out over time
To go one "Why?" deeper.
The reason that our bodies do this, as opposed to making all muscles strong all the time, is to avoid wasting energy on muscles you aren't using. It is basically using what muscles were used recently as a heuristic for which muscles need to be strong to ensure survival.
The reason that our bodies do this, as opposed to making all muscles strong all the time, is to avoid wasting energy on muscles you aren't using. It is basically using what muscles were used recently as a heuristic for which muscles need to be strong to ensure survival.
It would be nice, though, if our minds could control that directly, rather than going through exercise. Perhaps evolution is not there yet.
1 - Evolution is only increased genetic contribution to the next generation. Random mutations that help with that will become more common. It's not a magical process that makes us better.
2 - It turns out that your mind does control it directly. The greatest predictor of improved muscular strength is how strongly you can intentionally contract that muscle. Unfortunately, you learn to do that through exercise :|
2 - It turns out that your mind does control it directly. The greatest predictor of improved muscular strength is how strongly you can intentionally contract that muscle. Unfortunately, you learn to do that through exercise :|
I happen to love the exercise so I’ll happily have it this way! Especially if (like me) you’ve crossed over the starting hurdle and you are building/maintaining real muscle - it’s awesome!
I would say since the primary goal of genetic life is to survive and pass on genetic code. Muscles which clearly ended up working so hard that they were damaged need to be strengthen so next time such and such situation occurs they do not need to be stressed to such an extent. They are prepare for the eventual re-occurring of that task. Eventually you will lose muscle mass if you do not use/need it.
With inanimate objects the same happens if you consider humans doing maintenance as part of the system: if some part gets damaged all the time because it's too weak we strengthen it or replace it with a stronger version.
There are a lot of low level mechanisms that improve health with exercise. The basic breakdown is some things like digestion where optimized by evolution around the fact our ancestors moved. For similar reasons UV light in childhood are a requirement for normal vision exercise was simply universal for a very long time.
A lower level example is feedback mechanisms. Mechanical stress from motion are used to maintain bone strength. The cells involved in bone breakdown and repair can detect damage and reinforce where needed, but they also remove bone where it’s not needed. Without that kind of feedback our bones would either be weak or heavy.
The same thing happens with your circulatory system, you grow new capillaries in response to demand. Or for a “negative” example fat cells reproduce when you can store more energy.
A lower level example is feedback mechanisms. Mechanical stress from motion are used to maintain bone strength. The cells involved in bone breakdown and repair can detect damage and reinforce where needed, but they also remove bone where it’s not needed. Without that kind of feedback our bones would either be weak or heavy.
The same thing happens with your circulatory system, you grow new capillaries in response to demand. Or for a “negative” example fat cells reproduce when you can store more energy.
[deleted]
An extension to that question: Why do people say elevating your heart rate is good in relation to exercise, and bad in relation to cocaine? People frequently say things like "stimulants stress your circulatory system", but so does exercise.
Not a professional, but the way I reason it is that pushing your heart to the limit causes it to grow stronger, and that additional capacity means it doesn't have to work as hard during the rest of the day. You basically bring down your average heart rate by making your heart stronger.
That makes sense, but then why is it considered bad for drugs to raise your heart rate?
Just because the heart rate is elevated in both cases, that doesn't mean the context is the same. It's not the same cause, it's not the same result.
Exercise raising the heart rate is a consequence, that (the increased heart rate) is not the singular magic thing improving your health. With exercise there's a positive, body-comprehensive event going on.
Exercise strengthens the heart.
Cocaine (for example) damages the heart. It doesn't just elevate the heart rate, it does some vicious things to the heart, causing damage:
https://www.webmd.com/connect-to-care/addiction-treatment-re...
Exercise raising the heart rate is a consequence, that (the increased heart rate) is not the singular magic thing improving your health. With exercise there's a positive, body-comprehensive event going on.
Exercise strengthens the heart.
Cocaine (for example) damages the heart. It doesn't just elevate the heart rate, it does some vicious things to the heart, causing damage:
https://www.webmd.com/connect-to-care/addiction-treatment-re...
Caffeine raises your heart rate for a short(ish) time, but at least for moderate amounts of consumption that doesn't seem to have any negative effects. There are even some studies that suggest that one or two cups of coffee a day may have health benefits, including the cardiovascular system.
Cocaine on the other hand seems to raise your resting heart rate because it damages your cardiovascular system [1]. Your heart has to work more to achieve the same result, the opposite from what you want to achieve with exercise.
1: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
Cocaine on the other hand seems to raise your resting heart rate because it damages your cardiovascular system [1]. Your heart has to work more to achieve the same result, the opposite from what you want to achieve with exercise.
1: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
Simple machines don't have internal processes that rebuild themselves to be stronger after wear and tear.
Bodies heal unlike machines. Maintaining capacity of tissues has energy costs. The body does not want to waste energy maintaining capacity that it does not need. Therefore if your day to day existence does not demand a high level of fitness to function, you will decondition . You must provide stressful stimulus to the body to let it know the level of condition it needs to maintain to be properly adapted.
Rubber band can't dynamically detect and repair weared off molecule clusters.
Mammals are highly adoptive by the design, a living organism consists of trillions programmed and partially controllable nanomachines.
Body has autonomous and centralised systems, which checks and sends hormonal signals and redistribute resources from other parts and could directly command specific cell groups to grow or change behavior in a chance to increase organism survivability.
Mammals are highly adoptive by the design, a living organism consists of trillions programmed and partially controllable nanomachines.
Body has autonomous and centralised systems, which checks and sends hormonal signals and redistribute resources from other parts and could directly command specific cell groups to grow or change behavior in a chance to increase organism survivability.
The human body doesn’t shut down so much as idle. There are mechanical systems that don’t like to idle, like air cooled engines. Anything that maintains itself as part of vigorous operation (flushing out pipes, circulating lubricants or coolants) can get into trouble if not operated vigorously enough for too long. You need to “exercise” your car every few weeks or the battery dies.
Not exactly what you were asking for, but Nassim Taleb's "Antifragile" might be of interest to you. It's about how many human made things e.g. machines, the economy, etc. are fragile and get weaker/collapse under stress. In contrast many organic things (e.g. muscles) are antifragile, i.e., they gain from (small) stressors. Definitely an interesting read.
Your body has a hypertrophy response to exercise stress.
The low-level mechanism could be the endocrine system and its production of anabolic hormones, depending on how 'low-level' you are looking for.
The low-level mechanism could be the endocrine system and its production of anabolic hormones, depending on how 'low-level' you are looking for.
Exercise is bad for your body. Recovery from exercise is very good.
If you have a simple machine that wears out then someone will be along to fix it, if it's of any use to do so and you have the budget. The body uses the same idea.
It is hard to give a short answer to your question but you will find the following books helpful (check reviews on Amazon and elsewhere on the Web);
1) Body by Science: A Research Based Program for Strength Training, Body building, and Complete Fitness in 12 Minutes a Week by John Little and Doug McGuff.
2) The Energy of Life: The Science of What Makes Our Minds and Bodies Work by Guy Brown.
1) Body by Science: A Research Based Program for Strength Training, Body building, and Complete Fitness in 12 Minutes a Week by John Little and Doug McGuff.
2) The Energy of Life: The Science of What Makes Our Minds and Bodies Work by Guy Brown.
Both human and simple machine wear out of exercise.
Human cells (controlled by DNA algorithm) repair the wear out parts via reinforcement learning.
Human cells (controlled by DNA algorithm) repair the wear out parts via reinforcement learning.
My basic understanding is when we are strength training we are putting tiny tears in our muscle fibers. The body then uses protein to heal those tears and make the muscle fiber bigger as part of that process, allowing us to train even harder in the future.
Elastic bands are relatively just static objects.
Elastic bands are relatively just static objects.
In human body, new cells are created every day which is not case with elastic band. Best anology could be economy. If you keep creating wealth and not spending one day you reach your limitations. Continously churning and creating gives boost to economy.
Some tissues generate new cells every day, but tons of relevant things to exercise such as cardiac muscle cells and the fibrocytes making up things like ligaments and tendons really don't. This also goes for most of the other stuff on the inside of your body.
Why is a machine an appropriate analogy to a living body?
life eg. cellular growth
If you want to learn more about breathing I recommend checking out the book The Oxygen Advantage by Patrick Mckeown. It's got a bunch of different breathing exercises and ways to measure progress. It basically reteaches you how to breath too, which is fascinating on its own. Worth checking out for sure.
https://www.amazon.com/Oxygen-Advantage-Scientifically-Breat...
https://www.amazon.com/Oxygen-Advantage-Scientifically-Breat...
Oxygen Advantage is a great book. I'd recommend James Nestor's - 'Breath' [0] as a first read, however. I feel like the book has more real world application and I picked up a number of things outside of what I learned studying Hof breathwork. I also studied, prior to both books, with Wim Hof in Poland in 2017 on one of his week long expeditions. The in person experience of group breath work is something to experience if you've never. It's so much different than working on it solo - especially if you're new to any of these methods.
Breath work and cold exposure have been a large part of my life after reading 'What Doesn't Kill Us' by Scott Carney [1]. That was the book that drove me want to experience it first hand.
[0] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/48890486-breath [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30039048-what-doesn-t-ki...
Breath work and cold exposure have been a large part of my life after reading 'What Doesn't Kill Us' by Scott Carney [1]. That was the book that drove me want to experience it first hand.
[0] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/48890486-breath [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30039048-what-doesn-t-ki...
Did you read _any_ of the negative reviews for "Breath"? It sounds like pseudo science to me.
Commenting on something you haven't read stating that it sounds like something isn't productive. Many of those reviews take statements from the book out of context. For example the one of those comments states the book claims a cure for ADHD. It doesn't. It's an anecdotal reference provided by Dr. Mark Burhenne. Just because a book gathers evidence in support of the books topic doesn't make it "psuedo science".
Wow, you studied with Wim Hof in 2017, thats pretty damn cool! Its funny you say to start with 'Breath' because I was thinking you should start with Oxygen Advantage and then go to Wim Hof, but you sound like you have a much better background for legit recommendations. I had never heard of 'Breath' before. I'll definitely look into it. Is the Wim Hof experience just something one can sign up for? How did you end up there?
Not parent.
In my case for a medical experiment that got published in PNAS.
WHM is the only thing I did. I’ll take a look at the book recommendations.
In my case for a medical experiment that got published in PNAS.
WHM is the only thing I did. I’ll take a look at the book recommendations.
I loved reading 'What Doesn't Kill Us', and have been thinking about doing one of the week-long expeditions with Wim Hof. Did you do any prep before going on the trip, or was it your first experience with his breathwork?
Interestingly, Breath demonstrates that what we used to think is an O2 advantage is actually a CO2 advantage.
Yes and this is exactly what Tummo/Hof capitalize on - better known as the "Bohr Effect" [0]
[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK526028/
[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK526028/
Amazing book! My nasal breathing definitely improved from few simple tips from the book, and I wasn't even particularly diligent with following the program very far. I'm sure I could get even more benefits if I adhered to the exercises more consistently.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but is there a tl;dr? Often these "self-help" books are the same concept repeated for 200 pages that can be summed up in a paragraph.
How should I breathe?
How should I breathe?
An far as I have understood, the key point is the video. It shows a guy who is sucking air throw tough device called power-meter and the greater the power the better. Also, if I've understood correctly, the very process of training the breath power is something that actually lowers blood pressure. Correct me if I am wrong because my English is not fluent and I may miss some points.
Would this be helpful for someone who has chronic allergies and can’t breathe out of one nostril about 95% of the time?
I think tying allergies to this research probably takes some effort. I will say, as someone in a similar boat, that I've gotten a lot of benefit from regular ol' allergy shots, as well as from low-grade steoroids like fluticasone when things get intense.
Separately, if you haven't heard about it already, only being able to breathe clearly out of one nostril at a time is normal, and helps your nose do its job well[0]. You may be noticing it more acutely because of your congestion.
0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasal_cycle
Separately, if you haven't heard about it already, only being able to breathe clearly out of one nostril at a time is normal, and helps your nose do its job well[0]. You may be noticing it more acutely because of your congestion.
0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasal_cycle
Fun things to try with breathing:
- When lightly exercising, close eyes and focus on breathing. Note effects on heart rate.
- Get into an uncomfortable (but safe) position such as a deep squat, crab position, etc. Close eyes and focus on breathing. Note effects on feelings of discomfort, and effort to maintain the position.
- When lightly exercising, close eyes and focus on breathing. Note effects on heart rate.
- Get into an uncomfortable (but safe) position such as a deep squat, crab position, etc. Close eyes and focus on breathing. Note effects on feelings of discomfort, and effort to maintain the position.
Safety note for folks with uncontrolled hypertension: before squatting even just your body weight, read up on the Valsalva maneuver.
when I'm completely relaxed after a breathing workout, I sometimes dont "feel" the need of breathing, for long periods, is that normal?
If by breathing workout you mean Wim Hof style hyperventilation, then yes. Hyperventilation causes hypocapnia, which reduces air hunger.
I don't fully get the "lowers blood pressure" claim. Doesn't Table S2 in the paper say that blood pressure stayed roughly the same for people doing high-resistance IMST and went up for the control/sham group doing low-resistance IMST? The question in my mind is "why does low-resistance IMST increase blood pressure?" Am I missing something?
Casual vs ambulatory blood pressure readings seem to account for the difference between what is reported in Table S2 and what is shown in the main paper. I don't know which kind of reading is more clinically significant or reliable. A little worrying that its not seen in the ambulatory too.
Comparing group means might not be quite so informative in any case, because of baseline effects (e.g. you'd want to do paired tests I think to compare the diffs)
Comparing group means might not be quite so informative in any case, because of baseline effects (e.g. you'd want to do paired tests I think to compare the diffs)
Hmm this is a great catch. The figures quoted in their Methods and Results ("from 135±2 mm Hg to 126±3 mm Hg") don't seem to match any in Table 2.
Those are casual systolic blood pressure readings (from 135±2 mm Hg to 126±3 mm Hg). Table S2 are ambulatory.
Do you have thoughts or resources on comparing the two types of readings?
No, sorry; I was just learning about them now, because they were terms in the paper I didn't understand.
By my understanding "casual blood pressure" is when you sit for 5 minutes in a doctor's office then have a blood pressure measurement taken [1]. "Ambulatory blood pressure" is when a monitor is strapped onto you and automatic readings are taken periodically (typically half hourly) over a period of time (typically 24 hours) then averaged.
There is some debate (according to Google), but diagnosis of hypertension typically involves an ambulatory measurement over a casual measurement. It strikes me that the ambulatory measurement is the more important one from a long term health perspective, and it's odd that the paper chose not to mention the ambulatory measurement along with the casual measurement, though I'm not a medico.
As an aside, at one point I added a microcontroller to a cheap Aldi blood pressure monitor to do ambulatory measurements. A doctor seemed keen to diagnose hypertension based on a few casual readings, but I was keen to base the diagnosis on more data.
[1] https://link.springer.com/referenceworkentry/10.1007%2F978-3...
There is some debate (according to Google), but diagnosis of hypertension typically involves an ambulatory measurement over a casual measurement. It strikes me that the ambulatory measurement is the more important one from a long term health perspective, and it's odd that the paper chose not to mention the ambulatory measurement along with the casual measurement, though I'm not a medico.
As an aside, at one point I added a microcontroller to a cheap Aldi blood pressure monitor to do ambulatory measurements. A doctor seemed keen to diagnose hypertension based on a few casual readings, but I was keen to base the diagnosis on more data.
[1] https://link.springer.com/referenceworkentry/10.1007%2F978-3...
This is interesting, and is a pre-regisetered double blind study; still it was 18 participants in each condition, which is on the low end of what I'd find acceptable.
Okay, so I have some straight up anecdotal evidence done with a real blood pressure cuff by a trained medical professional for a related phenomenon.
I have to get a buprenorphine injection monthly.
As a part of this, they take my blood pressure.
I was talking to the nurse, animatedly about the silly policies our state government has around electric scooters, as she was taking my blood pressure.
She didn't read out both for me, but I initially had "135" as the result.
The nurse got me to take 5 minutes doing a guided (heavy) breathing and relaxation protocol, and sure enough, on running the blood pressure test again, I got "118"
I have to get a buprenorphine injection monthly.
As a part of this, they take my blood pressure.
I was talking to the nurse, animatedly about the silly policies our state government has around electric scooters, as she was taking my blood pressure.
She didn't read out both for me, but I initially had "135" as the result.
The nurse got me to take 5 minutes doing a guided (heavy) breathing and relaxation protocol, and sure enough, on running the blood pressure test again, I got "118"
If you are going to study effects on blood pressure in your own physiology, I very much recommend getting a home device so you can take a lot of measurements. Blood pressure changes constantly for any reason or (as far as I can tell) no reason.
When I take my own measurements, I take five measurements back to back without moving and see bigger swings that you did. I've seen that using three different home devices. I've seen it in clinical settings being measured by many, many professionals. I remember once seeing a thirty point swing between two measurements taken immediately back to back by a nurse. The sheer amount of downright superstitious behavior I've seen in nurses surrounding blood pressure measurements is pretty incredible, too: lots of retaking measurements until the number is what they expect, repositioning, or trying something random like you did. I find it all very reminiscent of the 2 4 6 Puzzle -- a lot more confirmation and explanation than investigation.
I'm not trying to say this sort of thing is statistically invalid at a population level. On the contrary. I'm pretty convinced in my own case that breathing exercises are worth about ten points. But I strongly recommend developing a healthy respect for the sheer variability of the number before drawing strong conclusions from a low number of measurements.
When I take my own measurements, I take five measurements back to back without moving and see bigger swings that you did. I've seen that using three different home devices. I've seen it in clinical settings being measured by many, many professionals. I remember once seeing a thirty point swing between two measurements taken immediately back to back by a nurse. The sheer amount of downright superstitious behavior I've seen in nurses surrounding blood pressure measurements is pretty incredible, too: lots of retaking measurements until the number is what they expect, repositioning, or trying something random like you did. I find it all very reminiscent of the 2 4 6 Puzzle -- a lot more confirmation and explanation than investigation.
I'm not trying to say this sort of thing is statistically invalid at a population level. On the contrary. I'm pretty convinced in my own case that breathing exercises are worth about ten points. But I strongly recommend developing a healthy respect for the sheer variability of the number before drawing strong conclusions from a low number of measurements.
It’s called the “white coat syndrome” — when you’ve just arrived to the hospital to make your appointment, and the nurse/doctor start taking your readings in a high-stress environment, the reading ends up being higher: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/high-blood-pr...
I actually think this is why fitness devices like the Apple Watch (v8 is supposed to be able to check blood pressure) are great in that high sampling rates probably yield overall more accurate results as outlying deviations can be more easily and methodically sorted out.
I actually think this is why fitness devices like the Apple Watch (v8 is supposed to be able to check blood pressure) are great in that high sampling rates probably yield overall more accurate results as outlying deviations can be more easily and methodically sorted out.
Apple Watch 7 doesn’t measure BP. But yeah I get white coat syndrome every visit.
I agree, this is a great trick. I've been using it for almost 20 years and it's kinda funny to use around friends too, if you are playing around with home blood pressure equipment for any reason. Also take off any hats, wear loose-fitting clothing, wear sandals instead of shoes if possible, and uncross your feet if they are crossed.
Also if they are weighing you clothes-on, it's worth some care as well. A lot of doctors offices will happily register that you gained a significant amount of weight without taking into account that you are wearing work boots, jeans, a vest holding your phone, etc. vs. your last appointment in the summer when you were wearing shorts, a T-shirt, and sandals. Your doctor won't see any of this of course, so it's your word vs the EMR.
And finally, a friend tells me that you should always feel out the doctor first before showing them your full noot stack or other health experiments. ;-)
Also if they are weighing you clothes-on, it's worth some care as well. A lot of doctors offices will happily register that you gained a significant amount of weight without taking into account that you are wearing work boots, jeans, a vest holding your phone, etc. vs. your last appointment in the summer when you were wearing shorts, a T-shirt, and sandals. Your doctor won't see any of this of course, so it's your word vs the EMR.
And finally, a friend tells me that you should always feel out the doctor first before showing them your full noot stack or other health experiments. ;-)
The weight thing never made sense to me. At some point I noticed doctors offices started weighing me on the way in instead of wearing the gown, as you note it's less standardized between readings. Fine whatever, but if that's going to be the case maybe don't needle me over < 5lb shifts in weight? One visit I'm wearing shorts, t-shirt, sandals, and not much else. The next visit its a heavy coat, jeans, and my pockets full of crap. I wonder what the difference was.
IIRC standard protocol is (don't know how closely adhered to) to give the patient a 5 minute resting period before doing a BP reading anyway.
[deleted]
My BP is always high while I'm talking
It might just be the sitting there for 5 minutes, and not so much the protocol. I get my BP checked regularly by my PCP's nurse. Usually they have me sit for a few mins and then come in to check. It's not uncommon that the first reading is higher than they'd like, and then they tell me to wait there for 5-10 mins and voila when they come back it's much lower.
Anecdote. My mother had asthma since age of 30 and my father developed high bp at age of 50. Mother had a very strict diet ( inhaler weren't popular in Indian middle class) and father was supposed to take a pill for life.
They started following breathing exercises (Pranayam) as told by Indian yog Guru Ramdev on television for 30-60 mins a day and they have mostly controlled it now for last 18 years.
For anyone searching on youtube, he and other gurus make lot of tall claims and say irrational things, sell snake oil and are in general against western medicines, you'll have to ignore it.
They started following breathing exercises (Pranayam) as told by Indian yog Guru Ramdev on television for 30-60 mins a day and they have mostly controlled it now for last 18 years.
For anyone searching on youtube, he and other gurus make lot of tall claims and say irrational things, sell snake oil and are in general against western medicines, you'll have to ignore it.
> For anyone searching on youtube, he and other gurus make lot of tall claims and say irrational things, sell snake oil and are in general against western medicines, you'll have to ignore it.
That's the insidious thing about those gurus: they often couple genuinely healthful practices like mindful breathing and exercise and healthy diet with horrible things like snake oil remedies and religious intolerance - essentially using the former to try to legitimize the latter, and many who follow them are not equipped to distinguish one from each other.
That's the insidious thing about those gurus: they often couple genuinely healthful practices like mindful breathing and exercise and healthy diet with horrible things like snake oil remedies and religious intolerance - essentially using the former to try to legitimize the latter, and many who follow them are not equipped to distinguish one from each other.
Especially with Ramdev who's made an entire conglomerate in his name making all sorts of stuff from detergents to instant noodles to medicines, all of which use his reputation to promote their "healthy" status despite a lot of the ingredients just being bog standard and the same as any other product on the market and often plain inferior. My parents are sucked in completely and buy so many of their products
It's a shame that he turned so political and money hungry. A lot of his yoga and breathing techniques are simple and easy to follow and are genuinely helpful
It's a shame that he turned so political and money hungry. A lot of his yoga and breathing techniques are simple and easy to follow and are genuinely helpful
I do this 11 min Pranayama it helps a lot https://youtu.be/vhmbnsXOhx8
The article mentions that the device is used during the inhale. Doesn't clarify if it's also used during the exhale or not.
(I just rolled-up my fist and breathed through it. And it provided lots of resistance. So it looks like I might be able to make this work with just my fist.)
If anyone knows, please hit reply and let me know.
(I just rolled-up my fist and breathed through it. And it provided lots of resistance. So it looks like I might be able to make this work with just my fist.)
If anyone knows, please hit reply and let me know.
Paper is linked in the article: https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/JAHA.121.020980
Intervention section mentions that study participants used a device called 'POWERbreathe K3 inspiratory muscle training device'.
Googling the device provides these videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd5U7mDhFi4 & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvtZW5Q1ox8
When I was working out in the gym in the summer in pandemic season with masks on, I noticed my breathlessness, the movement of the mask amplifies the visual and it was easy to draw a comparison in this way with my surrounding gym peers, and indeed I realized my lungs were in much worse shape than I'd expected, so I'm going to give this thing a try.
Edit: model featured in YouTube is not the same one the study used but close ‘nuff to get the idea.
Intervention section mentions that study participants used a device called 'POWERbreathe K3 inspiratory muscle training device'.
Googling the device provides these videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd5U7mDhFi4 & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvtZW5Q1ox8
When I was working out in the gym in the summer in pandemic season with masks on, I noticed my breathlessness, the movement of the mask amplifies the visual and it was easy to draw a comparison in this way with my surrounding gym peers, and indeed I realized my lungs were in much worse shape than I'd expected, so I'm going to give this thing a try.
Edit: model featured in YouTube is not the same one the study used but close ‘nuff to get the idea.
Don't know for sure but from skimming the paper it looks like it's inhalation only. "Inspiratory muscle strength training (IMST) is an alternative form of physical training that uses the diaphragm and accessory respiratory muscles to repeatedly inhale against resistance." The words "exhale," "expire," and their various inflected forms don't appear anywhere in the paper.
Thanks.
I'm not sure I understand the question.
The point is to breathe in and out as strongly/deeply and slowly as possible. You don't "do" anything aside from breathing and increasing the difficulty mode as your strength improves (over e.g. weeks).
If you breathe out quickly you're losing a large amount of the benefit of the exercise.
PS - I own a POWERBREATHE Sport, no relation to the company or this study.
The point is to breathe in and out as strongly/deeply and slowly as possible. You don't "do" anything aside from breathing and increasing the difficulty mode as your strength improves (over e.g. weeks).
If you breathe out quickly you're losing a large amount of the benefit of the exercise.
PS - I own a POWERBREATHE Sport, no relation to the company or this study.
The article mentioned what to do during the "inhale" but didn't mention "exhale", so I wasn't sure if one still does the restricted breathing during exhale or not.
Powerbreathe seems like an unnecessary uni-tasking gadget conforming to western sensibilities.
Zen and the Brain by James Austin details his study of Zen monks brains which revealed this breathing-stress connection scientifically decades ago.
If I remember correctly, the exhale is especially important to triggering certain relaxation states; brains of monks who were especially focused on long exhales were appreciably different from other monks.
Zen and the Brain by James Austin details his study of Zen monks brains which revealed this breathing-stress connection scientifically decades ago.
If I remember correctly, the exhale is especially important to triggering certain relaxation states; brains of monks who were especially focused on long exhales were appreciably different from other monks.
> Powerbreathe seems like an unnecessary uni-tasking gadget conforming to western sensibilities.
This is an incredibly elitist and exclusive observation.
The use of a tool that provides positive health benefits to assist those unfamiliar with zen breathing techniques should be applauded. Meditation is ‘easy’ to those who are open and have time to commit to it, and it’s not for everyone. To some it might even be outside their own cultural or personal comfort zone, and that is entirely OK.
And what on earth is the problem with a ‘uni-tasking gadget’? My garage, bathroom and kitchen drawers are all full of these things. In fact, with the obvious exception of the smart phone, it’s the multi-tasking gadgets that should be derided (the outdoors industry is full of these, as epitomised by the ‘axesaw’).
This is an incredibly elitist and exclusive observation.
The use of a tool that provides positive health benefits to assist those unfamiliar with zen breathing techniques should be applauded. Meditation is ‘easy’ to those who are open and have time to commit to it, and it’s not for everyone. To some it might even be outside their own cultural or personal comfort zone, and that is entirely OK.
And what on earth is the problem with a ‘uni-tasking gadget’? My garage, bathroom and kitchen drawers are all full of these things. In fact, with the obvious exception of the smart phone, it’s the multi-tasking gadgets that should be derided (the outdoors industry is full of these, as epitomised by the ‘axesaw’).
This seems an unnecessary patronizing comment; free speech and all but thanks dad for admonishing others that don’t cater to your sensibilities.
You found a holy war in a disposable comment. You might consider your own knee jerk reaction over something so insignificant.
“Unnecessary unitasker” is not equivalent to “all unitaskers.” Not sure how you can take the language as is an extrapolate so much drama.
Two sentences and look at the thin skins remind me “we’re a society!”
You found a holy war in a disposable comment. You might consider your own knee jerk reaction over something so insignificant.
“Unnecessary unitasker” is not equivalent to “all unitaskers.” Not sure how you can take the language as is an extrapolate so much drama.
Two sentences and look at the thin skins remind me “we’re a society!”
I won’t get drawn in to free speech / whatever argument.
The tool offers a cheap shortcut to a positive health outcome. The alternatives could be medication, or a guided practice - both of which require financial and time commitments. Why would you dismiss it on some ideological grounds?
The tool offers a cheap shortcut to a positive health outcome. The alternatives could be medication, or a guided practice - both of which require financial and time commitments. Why would you dismiss it on some ideological grounds?
In the video on the webpage at 0:14 the patient is using the device only for inhaling, not for exhaling. I tried breathing through my fist and it worked really well. Since I am not interested in another device that I have to clean and carry with me on travels I will try the fist method in the next weeks.
Thank you for clarifying about the "exhale" part. Saved me some time.
Swimming also restrict air flow to the lungs: you must inhale quickly and hold your breath during parts of the strokes. Possibly the effect shown here contributes to swimming being such a good exercise and might be useful in comparing the physiology of swimming with that of similar sports (e.g., rowing).
Would this regimen improve the blood pressure of swimmers? Swimmers are already breathing under restrictive conditions (possibly as much as an hour or two each day) so my guess is "No".
But if I can get any significant part of a swimming workout in minutes per day, I'll take it!
Would this regimen improve the blood pressure of swimmers? Swimmers are already breathing under restrictive conditions (possibly as much as an hour or two each day) so my guess is "No".
But if I can get any significant part of a swimming workout in minutes per day, I'll take it!
While breathing during swimming is definitely “less easy” than normally, I would point out that when swimming you are not experiencing resistive airflow. But some trainer snorkels do include pieces to increase airflow resistance and it might have similar effects to IMST. I’m not sure if these are used by serious athletes though.
isitmadeofglass says >"when swimming you are not experiencing resistive airflow."<
I disagree! During swimming:
- you have a window of time within which to inhale during each stroke and you're inhaling as much as possible. If you do this slower then you move slower (and you lose the race),
- meanwhile the (mouth, throat, lungs) system works to keep stray water from entering the lungs and to remove any that has entered, causing further restriction,
- the position of the head and neck relative to the body constantly changes b/c of the body's rotation and the head's movement. The airflow changes accordingly.
Ask any other competitive/Masters' swimmer about this.
For these reasons I doubt "PowerBreathe" is useful to (esp. competitive) swimmers, who already are breathing in a restricted manner. But that's just my opinion after swimming and racing for decades.
Note: To my astonishment, while searching this topic before posting, I stumbled across PowerBreathe ads targeted toward swimmers, the very audience I thought would find it useless! So maybe I've been sucked into a PowerBreathe SPAM campaign unwittingly.
I disagree! During swimming:
- you have a window of time within which to inhale during each stroke and you're inhaling as much as possible. If you do this slower then you move slower (and you lose the race),
- meanwhile the (mouth, throat, lungs) system works to keep stray water from entering the lungs and to remove any that has entered, causing further restriction,
- the position of the head and neck relative to the body constantly changes b/c of the body's rotation and the head's movement. The airflow changes accordingly.
Ask any other competitive/Masters' swimmer about this.
For these reasons I doubt "PowerBreathe" is useful to (esp. competitive) swimmers, who already are breathing in a restricted manner. But that's just my opinion after swimming and racing for decades.
Note: To my astonishment, while searching this topic before posting, I stumbled across PowerBreathe ads targeted toward swimmers, the very audience I thought would find it useless! So maybe I've been sucked into a PowerBreathe SPAM campaign unwittingly.
I've been using a Powerbreathe for inspiratory muscle training. The daily exercise only takes a few minutes. But it requires occasional cleaning, and the spring valve sometimes gets stuck closed. I haven't noticed any obvious decrease in blood pressure.
https://www.powerbreathe.com/product-category/breathing-trai...
https://www.powerbreathe.com/product-category/breathing-trai...
[deleted]
There are inhalation resistance trainers on Amazon for as little as $20. I'm doubtful the more expensive devices offer any benefits. In fact the simpler less expensive models look much easier to take apart and clean. As long as you are breathing against resistance, you're getting a benefit.
I wonder if you can stack the breathing exercises (9pt reduction) with grip strength exercises (10% reduction) for even more benefit.
Edit: People are disagreeing with this? Why?
Edit: People are disagreeing with this? Why?
Just lift weights.
Is this the same article from 2019?
https://www.colorado.edu/today/2019/02/25/novel-workout-impr...
https://www.colorado.edu/today/2019/02/25/novel-workout-impr...
The follow up clinical trial.
My wife has white coat syndrome.
There was a time (~7 years ago). We were living in NYC. The doctors office was at the top of 5 flights of stairs and the elevator was out. Having just climbed 5 flights of stairs and telling the doctor she has white coat syndrome, they _immediately_ take her blood pressure. Noting it’s (unsurprisingly) high, suggests she go on blood pressure medication. A decision that would surely have damaged her health.
4 years ago, we told her OBGYN she had white coat syndrome. We got a blood pressure cuff to use at home that recorded every reading (including date/time) so we could bring it in to her. Every reading at home, out and about, was good - even borderline low. At the doctors office, it was always high. The doctor, knowing this, STILL tried to suggest we induce early labor.
TL;DR - doctors will kill you. Your health is your own - don’t delegate the most important decision in your life.
There was a time (~7 years ago). We were living in NYC. The doctors office was at the top of 5 flights of stairs and the elevator was out. Having just climbed 5 flights of stairs and telling the doctor she has white coat syndrome, they _immediately_ take her blood pressure. Noting it’s (unsurprisingly) high, suggests she go on blood pressure medication. A decision that would surely have damaged her health.
4 years ago, we told her OBGYN she had white coat syndrome. We got a blood pressure cuff to use at home that recorded every reading (including date/time) so we could bring it in to her. Every reading at home, out and about, was good - even borderline low. At the doctors office, it was always high. The doctor, knowing this, STILL tried to suggest we induce early labor.
TL;DR - doctors will kill you. Your health is your own - don’t delegate the most important decision in your life.
This is especially true for pregnancy. The provider you choose has an extreme amount of power over you towards the end.
For my first we were basically threatened and coerced for near zero medical reason to get "interventions". Before we got to the hospital we were promised one thing, but when we got there it was break her water or find a new provider and potentially have our baby die.
We trusted the doctors even though we both felt coerced and lied to. It all culminated in an unnecessary C-section 12 hours later because the doctor was already woken up for someone else. She said our baby was going to have a much worse outcome. That we would just have a c-section anyway so we might as well just do it.
I think we both deal with the team from that still.
Just remember to interview your doctor's and find local patient outcomes. We wish we had the first time.
The second went with minimal intervention and, fingers crossed, the third will go the same.
Also it's not that we are against needed intervention or chosen intervention. We simple want the best outcome for everyone. Intervention imo should be a last resort or as needed for patients like my wife.
For my first we were basically threatened and coerced for near zero medical reason to get "interventions". Before we got to the hospital we were promised one thing, but when we got there it was break her water or find a new provider and potentially have our baby die.
We trusted the doctors even though we both felt coerced and lied to. It all culminated in an unnecessary C-section 12 hours later because the doctor was already woken up for someone else. She said our baby was going to have a much worse outcome. That we would just have a c-section anyway so we might as well just do it.
I think we both deal with the team from that still.
Just remember to interview your doctor's and find local patient outcomes. We wish we had the first time.
The second went with minimal intervention and, fingers crossed, the third will go the same.
Also it's not that we are against needed intervention or chosen intervention. We simple want the best outcome for everyone. Intervention imo should be a last resort or as needed for patients like my wife.
I had a similar situation a few years ago.
I knew I had strep, went to urgent care to get tested so I could get antibiotics. They said there was no way I had strep, and told me the white spots all over my throat were "stress cankers". I was really sick and ended up going back 2 hours later because I wasn't breathing well. They just blew it off again and wouldn't do anything for me.
5 hours later I was in the ER because I couldn't breathe and ended up having strep and pneumonia. ER doctor said I would have died if I had waited longer since I was had sepsis. He also told me that the strep test is only 50% effective so there is no way they should have been that dismissive of me.
I knew I had strep, went to urgent care to get tested so I could get antibiotics. They said there was no way I had strep, and told me the white spots all over my throat were "stress cankers". I was really sick and ended up going back 2 hours later because I wasn't breathing well. They just blew it off again and wouldn't do anything for me.
5 hours later I was in the ER because I couldn't breathe and ended up having strep and pneumonia. ER doctor said I would have died if I had waited longer since I was had sepsis. He also told me that the strep test is only 50% effective so there is no way they should have been that dismissive of me.
Good that she could self-advocate!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_coat_hypertension describes the condition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_coat_hypertension describes the condition.
You are completely correct with your TLDR. I saw the same when a close family member had to battle their way through the medical system to live through (and eventually overcome) advanced cancer.
I’ve started to see doctors more like advanced chatbots than anything else.
They are good if you know what you need and how to formulate your questions. They are good at searching UpToDate (a database of DDx flows). They are good at treating specific problems.
But it is a very rare doctor who takes considerate time to understand a patient and treat them holistically. I believe this is why alternative medicine providers are able to peddle their voodoo so effectively. Many people who don’t feel understood by allopathic medicine turn to cranks, because at least the cranks listen to them and make them feel heard.
I’ve started to see doctors more like advanced chatbots than anything else.
They are good if you know what you need and how to formulate your questions. They are good at searching UpToDate (a database of DDx flows). They are good at treating specific problems.
But it is a very rare doctor who takes considerate time to understand a patient and treat them holistically. I believe this is why alternative medicine providers are able to peddle their voodoo so effectively. Many people who don’t feel understood by allopathic medicine turn to cranks, because at least the cranks listen to them and make them feel heard.
That TLDR should be on every so-called physician's office, especially in America. Actual healthcare is your own duty. Most physicians are there for medicine/testing, which are both for-profit, and they are not incentivized to keep you in optimal health. In fact, they make a little bit more money if all of their clients are not too healthy... which is why so many doctors are moral injured from hospitals putting profits ahead of health when they realize they act as prescription and diagnosis drones for so many of their patients. It's better to call US "healthcare system" the "disease maintenance industry", as once you combine the "health" lobby with the "food" lobby, you see they work synergistically to keep consumers at sub-optimal health, and maximum profitability for all the leeches involved. Disgusting.
> TL;DR - doctors will kill you.
Personal opinion only but I think that in 100 years we will look back on the standard prescription drugs of the current era with the same mixture of horror and fascination that we feel today when we look back on the medicine of the 19th century.
Personal opinion only but I think that in 100 years we will look back on the standard prescription drugs of the current era with the same mixture of horror and fascination that we feel today when we look back on the medicine of the 19th century.
And it's pretty much guaranteed that some of the things we do regularly these days will be viewed as completely insane. My money is on sitting the whole day or commuting with the car.
> commuting with the car.
I have a blood pressure monitor at home and my values can go from 140/100 to 110/80 within pretty short time. It's completely insane to make a medication recommendation after only one blood pressure measurement.
Anyone know if breath is also connected to specific body parts? Really crude contrived example to illustrate what I mean: deep breathing affecting the left arm, shallow breathing affecting the right arm?
I always felt there must be some connection but never really understood how to even investigate. I definitely noticed that certain deep breathing was extraordinarily useful for alleviating IBS symptoms... basically the physical expansion of the lungs (contracting the diaphragm) clearly physically pressed upon the intestinal tract and massaged it (this is personal experience, anecdotal)... I have always wondered if this principle was extendable further?
Everything I've seen about the lungs is always about what it does for oxygen/co2 regulation in the blood... feels like this really underestimates whats going on
I always felt there must be some connection but never really understood how to even investigate. I definitely noticed that certain deep breathing was extraordinarily useful for alleviating IBS symptoms... basically the physical expansion of the lungs (contracting the diaphragm) clearly physically pressed upon the intestinal tract and massaged it (this is personal experience, anecdotal)... I have always wondered if this principle was extendable further?
Everything I've seen about the lungs is always about what it does for oxygen/co2 regulation in the blood... feels like this really underestimates whats going on
> “We have identified a novel form of therapy that lowers blood pressure without giving people pharmacological compounds and with much higher adherence than aerobic exercise,” said senior author Doug Seals, a Distinguished Professor of Integrative Physiology
I laugh at the term "novel" here, and am frustrated that we feel we need to make up a new technique and a new gadget when we could be teaching breathing practices that have been around for millenia. Try "nadi shodhana" or alternate-nostril breathing, using one's own hand to apply pressure (see the appendix of the book Breath by James Nestor; though I'm sure there are other references, that's what I've read and feel confident recommending).
I laugh at the term "novel" here, and am frustrated that we feel we need to make up a new technique and a new gadget when we could be teaching breathing practices that have been around for millenia. Try "nadi shodhana" or alternate-nostril breathing, using one's own hand to apply pressure (see the appendix of the book Breath by James Nestor; though I'm sure there are other references, that's what I've read and feel confident recommending).
Just for context, I posted this study since I was intrigued by this[0] recent HN comment about an anecdotal apnea training effect on weight and then came across this study. I'm using the Apnea Trainer app on iOS, but too early to say how it affects my weight.
I'm going to get a PowerBreathe device[1] as used here, since I am also dealing with hypertension.
[0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30617118#30624918
[1]https://www.powerbreathe.com/product/powerbreathe-plus-mediu...
I'm going to get a PowerBreathe device[1] as used here, since I am also dealing with hypertension.
[0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30617118#30624918
[1]https://www.powerbreathe.com/product/powerbreathe-plus-mediu...
I wonder if they will come down in price. The internal mechanism doesn't seem to warrant a starting price of 400€.
Interesting. I’m currently trying to lower blood pressure naturally and have found typical “in through nose, out through mouth” breathing exercises will drop mine a few points. Also, hand weights- 2 reps of 10 in each arm- will drop significantly. I have a lingering concern though that these are just ways to hack the test. In me, the drop has been temporary- by the afternoon it’s back up if that’s all I do. It is encouraging that this study seems to say there are long term benefits, but I still wonder if that’s because the treatments are allowing for better traditional cardio. In the video he kind of hints at that.
Of course this should not stop you from exercising where possible. It could be very useful in case of arthritis or similar conditions inhibiting exercise.
Eating garlic works even better for lowering blood pressure: https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/garlic-for-blood-pressu...
But combining garlic with breathing exercises might lead to unwanted side effects ;-)
This is called Pranayam.
We are doing this in India since ages... Good to see that 'experts' from Western countries taking baby steps to learn. Good for you guys!
Keep it up.
Note 1: Some 'expert' took my comment on their ego and downvoted my comment. Guys, my comment was encouraging. Taking it on your ego is your personal choice.
Note 1: Some 'expert' took my comment on their ego and downvoted my comment. Guys, my comment was encouraging. Taking it on your ego is your personal choice.
>This is called Pranayam.
Does Pranayam involve high-resistance inspiratory breathing?
Anyway, this is about scientific investigation, not received wisdom and cultural or religious practice. Conceivably they could have found no effect; would you have "congratulated" them then?
Does Pranayam involve high-resistance inspiratory breathing?
Anyway, this is about scientific investigation, not received wisdom and cultural or religious practice. Conceivably they could have found no effect; would you have "congratulated" them then?
> Does Pranayam involve high-resistance inspiratory breathing?
Yes, Pranayama is vast. So many different exercises for different purposes. But keep in mind that I'm a German and my knowledge is from books and some videos only. I'm no expert ...
One thing all sources I've read or seen are very clear about is that those exercises are advanced exercise. Also, Pranayama does very precisely assign exercises to specific conditions.
One thing we "western" guys can improve on is patience. I see it with myself every second of my life :-).
Yes, Pranayama is vast. So many different exercises for different purposes. But keep in mind that I'm a German and my knowledge is from books and some videos only. I'm no expert ...
One thing all sources I've read or seen are very clear about is that those exercises are advanced exercise. Also, Pranayama does very precisely assign exercises to specific conditions.
One thing we "western" guys can improve on is patience. I see it with myself every second of my life :-).
What else do you believe the west is missing?
I don't think I have time to compare what East has to learn from West and vice-versa.
You can try to document it as it suits you.
I'm a German with lots of interest in Yoga science ...
I'd say patience. And non-attachement.
I'd say patience. And non-attachement.
mainne englo shikshakon ke saath adhyayan kiya, lekin seedhe Sri BKS Iyengar ke vansh ke tahat. mere shikshak bahut satark the. main bahut achchhe svaasthy mein hoon aur tees saal baad ab meree achchhee aadaten hain. Light on Pranayama kee adhikaansh takaneeken ek shaharavaasee ke lie, yahaan tak ki mere lie bhee, bahut unnat hain.
edit: apologies for the terrible Hindi, but since YNews was so rude to a guest with a downvote, I wanted to show some respect to the South Asian knowledge. Yogas citta vritti naroda'ha -- namaste
edit: apologies for the terrible Hindi, but since YNews was so rude to a guest with a downvote, I wanted to show some respect to the South Asian knowledge. Yogas citta vritti naroda'ha -- namaste
Another commenter made this observation, but his comment was deleted by HN moderators.
I sure hope Elon Musk takes over Twitter so we will not need HN to have an open conversation.
I sure hope Elon Musk takes over Twitter so we will not need HN to have an open conversation.
Does this mean that wearing a mask with a proper seal and filtration has been improving my cardiovascular health?
>...the IMST group saw their systolic blood pressure (the top number) dip nine points on average, a reduction which generally exceeds that achieved by walking 30 minutes a day five days a week.
Walking isn't very aerobic. I think you would have to walk/jog up a hill for some sort of meaningful comparison.
Walking isn't very aerobic. I think you would have to walk/jog up a hill for some sort of meaningful comparison.
> Walking isn't very aerobic.
Depends how much weight is in your pack
Depends how much weight is in your pack
This is exactly what is prescribed in yoga. Very interesting.
Any idea on how to do this without the device?
Probably someone with Pranayama can comment - to me this seems a modification of anuloma-viloma (alternate nostril breathing).
Probably someone with Pranayama can comment - to me this seems a modification of anuloma-viloma (alternate nostril breathing).
I bought this one for this purpose and it seems to work. ($25)
https://www.amazon.com/Expand-A-Lung-BD12512-Breathing-Fitne...
I'm curious how breathing with this device compares with breathing through the nose
It's adjustable with a screw down. In general though breathing through the nose just will not replicate the inspiratory effort required to use this device. Not even close.
You could try this instead. It has similar benefits.
https://highbloodpressurebegone.com/how-to-do-hand-grip-exer...
https://highbloodpressurebegone.com/how-to-do-hand-grip-exer...
I am worried about the risk of pneumothorax with uncontrolled use of such devices. If you are at risk I would be careful.
So where can I buy this simple machine?
Or do I need a prescription and paying US healthcare level prices?
Or do I need a prescription and paying US healthcare level prices?
Seems to be available on the amazons: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=POWERbreathe
I haven't read the paper yet, so not going to impule-buy a $70 device yet, but the cheaper models seem interesting (assuming they operate on the same principle).
I haven't read the paper yet, so not going to impule-buy a $70 device yet, but the cheaper models seem interesting (assuming they operate on the same principle).
guess I will stop ignoring those breathing sessions my watch recommends
I wonder if they got the idea from watching Wim Hoff videos on YouTube.
Interestingly enough, I entered a friend’s clinical research study last year where they’re looking to replace the standard cardiac stress test by proving their hypothesis.
Essentially, they believe that by purposefully engaging in a combination of deep/long/shallow/etc. ("Wim Hoff style breathing techniques" - my friend’s words not mine), and get a patient to hyperventilate basically (in a controlled environment and developed protocol/framework), they could produce similar results and draw similar clinical conclusions as one would after a traditional stress test. They had me do two hours of various breathing techniques while simultaneously imaging my heart and then my brain using fMRI imaging.
* NAD but I managed to get the DICOM files and found some open source software (Horos) and loaded up the slices and it was super cool seeing what was going on during the different breathing *
I recently caught up with the individual and was told the study is in its final stages and so far looks very promising (which I’m sure all researchers say right but I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt).
Essentially, they believe that by purposefully engaging in a combination of deep/long/shallow/etc. ("Wim Hoff style breathing techniques" - my friend’s words not mine), and get a patient to hyperventilate basically (in a controlled environment and developed protocol/framework), they could produce similar results and draw similar clinical conclusions as one would after a traditional stress test. They had me do two hours of various breathing techniques while simultaneously imaging my heart and then my brain using fMRI imaging.
* NAD but I managed to get the DICOM files and found some open source software (Horos) and loaded up the slices and it was super cool seeing what was going on during the different breathing *
I recently caught up with the individual and was told the study is in its final stages and so far looks very promising (which I’m sure all researchers say right but I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt).
If you read the article you'll see this is an adjustment of a technique used since the 80s.
Considering it's an exercise protocol from the 1980s, probably not.
Which device was used in the study? Any buying recommendations?
They mention power breathe device
https://www.powerbreathe.com/
https://www.powerbreathe.com/
I guess this would help some truly disabled people, but traditional exercise, even in similar time frames, offers so many additional health benefits than breathing techniques.
And weight loss. See:
https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/files/docs/public/heart/hbp_low.pd...
and
https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/wfhtn/documents/wfhtn_aha_...
My brother, who is probably about 70 pounds overweight, takes blood pressure medication. Won't even try losing weight. He claims that "everyone he knows" takes it and just resigned to having to use it.
https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/files/docs/public/heart/hbp_low.pd...
and
https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/wfhtn/documents/wfhtn_aha_...
My brother, who is probably about 70 pounds overweight, takes blood pressure medication. Won't even try losing weight. He claims that "everyone he knows" takes it and just resigned to having to use it.
Where can I buy one?
It's called Inspiratory Muscle Strength Training (IMST) and they are on the market: https://www.powerbreathe.com/ (and other manufacturers).
I believe this study used the POWERbreathe K-Series: https://www.powerbreathe.com/product-category/breathing-trai...
I believe this study used the POWERbreathe K-Series: https://www.powerbreathe.com/product-category/breathing-trai...
[deleted]
Amazon. PowerBreathe. Around $70.
Looks like the ones used in the study are an order of magnitude more expensive than the ones on amazon.
Amazon (Plus model), $70: https://www.amazon.com/POWERbreathe-Fitness-Breathing-Traine...
From manufacturer (K3 model), $500: https://www.powerbreathe.com/product/k3/
Amazon (Plus model), $70: https://www.amazon.com/POWERbreathe-Fitness-Breathing-Traine...
From manufacturer (K3 model), $500: https://www.powerbreathe.com/product/k3/
There are various inhalation resistance trainers on Amazon for as little as $20. I'm doubtful the more expensive devices offer any benefits over the less expensive models. In fact the simpler less expensive models look much easier to take apart and clean. As long as you are breathing against resistance, you're getting a benefit.
The lack of skepticism in this comment section is so depressing.
Rather than post this completely useless comment, why don't you actually contribute by posting why you think this study should be ignored? I think many people in this comment section know from personal experience that breathing is a powerful tool for stress management so this result is intuitive to them.
breathing is a powerful tool for stress management
As is the occasional recreational drug of choice. Heck, a glass of milk before bed can do be a powerful tool for stress management. Same for going to a salon and having someone else wash your hair.
Even when it seems to work for you, you should still be sceptical when you find this stuff in a paper - especially when it is a small study. Especially with stress relief, something can "work" for you but still be completely without scientific merit (no better than a placebo, so no real benefit in telling the general population to do it).
As is the occasional recreational drug of choice. Heck, a glass of milk before bed can do be a powerful tool for stress management. Same for going to a salon and having someone else wash your hair.
Even when it seems to work for you, you should still be sceptical when you find this stuff in a paper - especially when it is a small study. Especially with stress relief, something can "work" for you but still be completely without scientific merit (no better than a placebo, so no real benefit in telling the general population to do it).
> Especially with stress relief, something can "work" for you but still be completely without scientific merit
This paper is scientific evidence. What it really sounds like is for some strange reason you don't want this to be true. Put in the effort yourself, read the study, and tell us all why this paper is bs.
This paper is scientific evidence. What it really sounds like is for some strange reason you don't want this to be true. Put in the effort yourself, read the study, and tell us all why this paper is bs.
> As is the occasional recreational drug of choice. Heck, a glass of milk before bed can do be a powerful tool for stress management. Same for going to a salon and having someone else wash your hair.
So? What does that say about this technique? I can't see the logic.
So? What does that say about this technique? I can't see the logic.
Doctors hate him
If you do the exercise right you won't even need the breathing.
Run 45 minutes a day, doesn't have to be fast, just consistent.
My blood pressure and pulse is actually too low sometimes and have to make sure I take enough salt.
Run 45 minutes a day, doesn't have to be fast, just consistent.
My blood pressure and pulse is actually too low sometimes and have to make sure I take enough salt.
What is the obsession of looking for a cheap way out if you are able bodied. Literally just go for a walk, run, or ride. I highly doubt doing some small activity can really compare to the full health benefits of some daily exercise.
BP tends to go up with age even being able bodied and active, so research into how to control it without medications (which have to be tuned to the individual and can have some unpleasant side effects) is worthwhile.
Why are you punishing yourself with unnecessary work if the easy way gets most of the benefit? Literally just breathe.
"But I like exercise" OK that's great for you, I have other things to do and not enough time to do them.
"But I like exercise" OK that's great for you, I have other things to do and not enough time to do them.
Yes, exercise is not always easy, but it has been worth it. I have met plenty of amazing people and gone to many interesting places because of it, its not just about the exercise. I wouldn't exchange that for sitting around retweeting Elon Musk lol.
* I have met plenty of amazing people and gone to many interesting places because of it, its not just about the exercise.*
I haven't. At best, I'm alone. At worst - especially when I was younger - I was just laughed at. Not to mention that I couldn't always do things like afford shoes that allowed me to walk regularly without pain or that I can rarely find a sports bra in my size (let alone afford it), so things like running are out of the question.
I haven't. At best, I'm alone. At worst - especially when I was younger - I was just laughed at. Not to mention that I couldn't always do things like afford shoes that allowed me to walk regularly without pain or that I can rarely find a sports bra in my size (let alone afford it), so things like running are out of the question.
I had a blood pressure monitor and pulse oximeter on my bedside table that I would experiment with doing these various techniques and seeing my heart rate go down, my blood pressure go down, my anxiety would disappear, lung/chest inflammation would settle, and even oxygen levels increase up to 5%.
I did this primarily because Covid reduced my average running mile time by around 20%. I was hopeful that I could make a full recovery which I did and then some.
This new tool I believe saved my life, and I’m excited to use it for the rest of it.