Dubai real estate data leak – Exposes criminals, officials, and politicians(e24.no)
e24.no
Dubai real estate data leak – Exposes criminals, officials, and politicians
https://e24.no/internasjonal-oekonomi/i/Bj97B0/dubai-uncovered-data-leak-exposes-how-criminals-officials-and-sanctioned-politicians-poured-money-into-dubai-real-estate
122 comments
> These individuals’ presence in Dubai’s real estate market registries highlights the danger that the emirate’s loose residency requirements and «few questions asked» approach to regulation enables questionable figures to use it as a home away from home, a place to launder their illicit gains through real estate, or simply to store their wealth.
I don't consider that controversial.
> or simply to store their wealth.
Especially this. "oOoOOoOooo soo scaary"
I think the choice of words here will be seen as laughable and antiquated in the future. UAE/Dubai is on the front of this trend and it will pay off very well for them as they accelerate their diversification away from a fossil fuel economy.
Other countries will simply have to find another way to get the behaviors they desire. Fingers crossed about the nukes staying siloed. But territories will shift, and that's not UAE or Dubai's problem, and when it becomes their problem, it won't be somewhere else's problem.
I don't consider that controversial.
> or simply to store their wealth.
Especially this. "oOoOOoOooo soo scaary"
I think the choice of words here will be seen as laughable and antiquated in the future. UAE/Dubai is on the front of this trend and it will pay off very well for them as they accelerate their diversification away from a fossil fuel economy.
Other countries will simply have to find another way to get the behaviors they desire. Fingers crossed about the nukes staying siloed. But territories will shift, and that's not UAE or Dubai's problem, and when it becomes their problem, it won't be somewhere else's problem.
> I think the choice of words here will be seen as laughable and antiquated in the future.
Or we will see countries like Dubai, Malta, Cyprus and other tax havens as collaborators and sanction them into oblivion.
Places that allow the rich to prevent themselves from being taxed by their home countries do not deserve existence. The amount of money laundered and stored away in tax havens is the money that used to fund social services, healthcare or living wages before the world allowed free and unimpeded movement of money. We need to get this money back under our control - if only to prevent social unrest from the 2/3rd of the US which have less than 1000$ in liquid savings.
Or we will see countries like Dubai, Malta, Cyprus and other tax havens as collaborators and sanction them into oblivion.
Places that allow the rich to prevent themselves from being taxed by their home countries do not deserve existence. The amount of money laundered and stored away in tax havens is the money that used to fund social services, healthcare or living wages before the world allowed free and unimpeded movement of money. We need to get this money back under our control - if only to prevent social unrest from the 2/3rd of the US which have less than 1000$ in liquid savings.
> Places that allow the rich to prevent themselves from being taxed by their home countries do not deserve existence.
You are falsely assuming that every country's tax policy is reasonable or fair. Look at the United States policy on foreign assets which effectively amounts to double taxation for no other reason than "we don't like rich people" / "we don't like our citizens not living here".
> We need to get this money back under our control - if only to prevent social unrest from the 2/3rd of the US which have less than 1000$ in liquid savings.
It's not your money to begin with, it belongs to the people who rightfully earned it, not the government, nor the poor. Peoples' assets don't exist to serve as piggy banks for social programs and redistribution.
You are falsely assuming that every country's tax policy is reasonable or fair. Look at the United States policy on foreign assets which effectively amounts to double taxation for no other reason than "we don't like rich people" / "we don't like our citizens not living here".
> We need to get this money back under our control - if only to prevent social unrest from the 2/3rd of the US which have less than 1000$ in liquid savings.
It's not your money to begin with, it belongs to the people who rightfully earned it, not the government, nor the poor. Peoples' assets don't exist to serve as piggy banks for social programs and redistribution.
> It's not your money to begin with, it belongs to the people who rightfully earned it, not the government, nor the poor. Peoples' assets don't exist to serve as piggy banks for social programs and redistribution.
It's up to debate if companies like Microsoft, Apple, AirBnB, Facebook or Uber "rightfully" earned their money - or if they did so by blatantly ignoring or skirting the laws for a long time.
Note that all companies I mentioned have a history of getting fined for violating labor, anti-trust or data protection laws.
It's up to debate if companies like Microsoft, Apple, AirBnB, Facebook or Uber "rightfully" earned their money - or if they did so by blatantly ignoring or skirting the laws for a long time.
Note that all companies I mentioned have a history of getting fined for violating labor, anti-trust or data protection laws.
> You are falsely assuming that every country's tax policy is reasonable or fair.
For that we have democracy. If you don't like the decisions taken by your countrymen, you should not get to extricate yourself so easily. A people has the right to tax its capital if it so pleases, and unless you can substantiate this being not right or unfair with, say, an equivalent to the human rights declaration, go ahead. But we both know this is not typically what tax havens are about; they are about not paying taxes. Besides, what's fair about being able to avoid taxes, where most people can't? Why do the rich get to pass the bill to others but the poor don't? Lotta holes in that line of reasoning.
> It's not your money to begin with, it belongs to the people who rightfully earned it, not the government, nor the poor.
Capital is not and should not magically be excluded from democratic control; and in fact fiat currencies, i.e. all of them, are precisely not your property. They are tokens distributed by a government within a context; the state and all its inhabitants. Speaking about fairness: merely having gathered many of these tokens does not mean you did so fairly or that you deserve them. It just means that you did.
For that we have democracy. If you don't like the decisions taken by your countrymen, you should not get to extricate yourself so easily. A people has the right to tax its capital if it so pleases, and unless you can substantiate this being not right or unfair with, say, an equivalent to the human rights declaration, go ahead. But we both know this is not typically what tax havens are about; they are about not paying taxes. Besides, what's fair about being able to avoid taxes, where most people can't? Why do the rich get to pass the bill to others but the poor don't? Lotta holes in that line of reasoning.
> It's not your money to begin with, it belongs to the people who rightfully earned it, not the government, nor the poor.
Capital is not and should not magically be excluded from democratic control; and in fact fiat currencies, i.e. all of them, are precisely not your property. They are tokens distributed by a government within a context; the state and all its inhabitants. Speaking about fairness: merely having gathered many of these tokens does not mean you did so fairly or that you deserve them. It just means that you did.
For that we have democracy. If you don't like the decisions taken by your countrymen, you should not get to extricate yourself so easily
If you start a new religion or marry into a royal family, you will not need to pay taxes anymore. It's a business tax optimization like any other.
I don't understand why we need to specifically sanction tax havens. Unless rich people are making money in the tax havens themselves (in which case they're not just tax havens), we can just levy all the taxes we want before the money leaves our own borders.
Yup - in particular VAT tax evasion (i.e. a company putting a $2000 sticker on laptops when they pass through Bermuda) is something that the US could easily solve with a minimal cumulative VAT tax - it just chooses not to.
The same corruption that leaves tax loopholes all over the place will prevent sanctions against tax havens - them existing is a desirable state by the corrupt that can purchase influence to perpetuate their existence.
The same corruption that leaves tax loopholes all over the place will prevent sanctions against tax havens - them existing is a desirable state by the corrupt that can purchase influence to perpetuate their existence.
Tax havens act as incentivizers for crimes - not just tax evasion, but also for routing around international sanctions or money laundering. We're punishing people who incentivize others to do criminal acts, so why should countries be exempt?
Could you explain that further? How do tax havens incentivize sanctions evasion or money laundering?
As far as I can tell, they’re just the most attractive places for such activities thanks to their low taxes. Laundering your money in Scandinavia probably wouldn’t be more difficult, it’d just be more expensive.
As far as I can tell, they’re just the most attractive places for such activities thanks to their low taxes. Laundering your money in Scandinavia probably wouldn’t be more difficult, it’d just be more expensive.
> that allow the rich to prevent themselves from being taxed by their home countries
That is a big list of entire countries if you include legal persons in the definition
That is a big list of entire countries if you include legal persons in the definition
> Places that allow the rich to prevent themselves from being taxed by their home countries do not deserve existence.
Sounds like you are describing almost every single country on earth!
I think what you really object to is countries offering attractive tax regimes.
Sounds like you are describing almost every single country on earth!
I think what you really object to is countries offering attractive tax regimes.
Here is what I read:
"Its absurd we are not being hosed equally"
instead of
"Why are we being hosed at all"
Countries finance themselves from the international debt markets, and pay the interest with their taxes and with future debt issuances. They pay prior investors with future investor money, and convince future investors by periodically paying the interest and they idea that the country could pay more interest any time it wants (by raising taxes, or straight expropriation of property). All this means that the things that were going to get funded and built and supported were already chosen to do so and greater tax collection would have no bearing on that. (Some smaller taxes directly fund certain institutions, but its not like a road or school or social service in a poor area would ever actually get prioritized.)
"Its absurd we are not being hosed equally"
instead of
"Why are we being hosed at all"
Countries finance themselves from the international debt markets, and pay the interest with their taxes and with future debt issuances. They pay prior investors with future investor money, and convince future investors by periodically paying the interest and they idea that the country could pay more interest any time it wants (by raising taxes, or straight expropriation of property). All this means that the things that were going to get funded and built and supported were already chosen to do so and greater tax collection would have no bearing on that. (Some smaller taxes directly fund certain institutions, but its not like a road or school or social service in a poor area would ever actually get prioritized.)
> "Why are we being hosed at all"
I really think I don't fully understand you here. If "It's absurd we are not being hosed equally" comes from "It's absurd some people are rich enough to ", then, "Why are we being hosed at all" means, "Why do we pay taxes at all?" Are you implying the government could just keep minting debt without any tax base?
I really think I don't fully understand you here. If "It's absurd we are not being hosed equally" comes from "It's absurd some people are rich enough to ", then, "Why are we being hosed at all" means, "Why do we pay taxes at all?" Are you implying the government could just keep minting debt without any tax base?
> Are you implying the government could just keep minting debt without any tax base?
No. You're getting closer to asking the right questions. The universe of possibilities is just much broader than the public discourse has been led to.
No. You're getting closer to asking the right questions. The universe of possibilities is just much broader than the public discourse has been led to.
I used to be a libertarian, but reading about international organized crime made me realize we do need the state because these people won't be stoped by NAP principle-touting ideologues. financial havens definitely and provably assist in building organizations that can subvert governments, and not in favor of your freedoms I assure you.
Whitelisting transactions is a fools errand and not a policy solution.
If that leaves everyone with a void and absence of any policy solution, that's where we are.
If that leaves everyone with a void and absence of any policy solution, that's where we are.
It is a great pity that so many of those havens are shielded by western countries too. The UK has the crown dependencies (Jersey, Guernsey, various Caribbean holdings), the US has various vassal states (as I understand it), France is the same, then there are the microstates like Monaco. None of it could exist without the tacit consent of large countries that have legal or diplomatic sway over these jurisdictions.
I don't know if I laugh or cry at the naivety of libertarians talking about common people funding defense contractors to protect them from organized crime and foreign state-owned armies.
[deleted]
You can still be a libertarian, you just have to give up on property rights.
So be an actual libertarian in the original sense of the word rather than a neofuedalist?
I don’t understand what they expect Dubai to be doing around transactions. Their is only so much you can check when someone is buying a property and the money is being sent from abroad.
I bought property recently in another (less expensive) place and they ask about where you work and so on but say I just have money saved up they really have nothing to check. Say im retired can i not buy something now? No that would be pretty stupid. Journalists these days are beyond stupid.
I bought property recently in another (less expensive) place and they ask about where you work and so on but say I just have money saved up they really have nothing to check. Say im retired can i not buy something now? No that would be pretty stupid. Journalists these days are beyond stupid.
They're not stupid.
(Speculation alert)
It seems to me they serve a higher level purpose of squeezing the middle class and the "small rich" (sorry, lack a better expression) out of their wealth.
All this BS anti-ML, KYC, etc do is make this audience's lives harder and more expensive to invest and diversify their risks.
Meanwhile, the "big rich" (again, sorry) can navigate these ridiculous bureaucracies easily, as the fixed costs are comparatively small to them.
Criminals also can navigate this easy as a piece of cake.
Or do they imagine that a person who committed dark crimes will stop and think: "Oh nooo, I have to send my real passport photo? Damn, busted!"
(Speculation alert)
It seems to me they serve a higher level purpose of squeezing the middle class and the "small rich" (sorry, lack a better expression) out of their wealth.
All this BS anti-ML, KYC, etc do is make this audience's lives harder and more expensive to invest and diversify their risks.
Meanwhile, the "big rich" (again, sorry) can navigate these ridiculous bureaucracies easily, as the fixed costs are comparatively small to them.
Criminals also can navigate this easy as a piece of cake.
Or do they imagine that a person who committed dark crimes will stop and think: "Oh nooo, I have to send my real passport photo? Damn, busted!"
As a middle-class/small-rich person, how does anti-ML, KYC legislature make my life harder and poorer in any meaningful way?
I take my paycheck, and I invest it into the SP500. My investment costs are minimal, and my investment gains are correlated with the overall health of capitalism.
In what way does KYC or AML affect me? I'm not looking for theoretical tangents, I'm looking for tangible negative impact.
I understand that there are criminals cheating the system, by doing something illegal, and then working around those restrictions. But how do these restrictions place an onerous burden on me? Showing ID to open a bank account is not an onerous burden that keeps me poor.
I take my paycheck, and I invest it into the SP500. My investment costs are minimal, and my investment gains are correlated with the overall health of capitalism.
In what way does KYC or AML affect me? I'm not looking for theoretical tangents, I'm looking for tangible negative impact.
I understand that there are criminals cheating the system, by doing something illegal, and then working around those restrictions. But how do these restrictions place an onerous burden on me? Showing ID to open a bank account is not an onerous burden that keeps me poor.
You're right, it doesn't meaningfully impact regular people. But as a crypto investor, vmception's real beef is that anti-money laundering regulations make it harder for criminals to transact in crypto and therefore harder for him to make money.
In France, you have to fill a full A4 form if you want to move more than 3000€. At least I do, but some others surely dont.
It just wastes your time when you signed up at your bank, at your brokerage firm. You may have forgot that at one point you did a tedious process. But maybe all your banking was created recently and you have a nice streamlined online signup process that worked perfectly for you, more on that later.
It will waste your time when you want to do anything like borrow especially for a mortgage, or anything slightly more complex when you get some bright idea like trying to transfer the stock shares directly instead of selling them first. It will waste your time when want to invest in other things like a private equity fund or directly into someone else's company. It will waste your time if you try to create more advanced retirement accounts and then invest with those.
It will definitely waste your time when the fintech middleware company that made signing up to a bank easier with some super streamlined online identity verification software doesn't recognize you. "I swear I really didn't live on any of those street addresses, wtf this was supposed to take 5 seconds".
It will waste your time when you want to do anything like borrow especially for a mortgage, or anything slightly more complex when you get some bright idea like trying to transfer the stock shares directly instead of selling them first. It will waste your time when want to invest in other things like a private equity fund or directly into someone else's company. It will waste your time if you try to create more advanced retirement accounts and then invest with those.
It will definitely waste your time when the fintech middleware company that made signing up to a bank easier with some super streamlined online identity verification software doesn't recognize you. "I swear I really didn't live on any of those street addresses, wtf this was supposed to take 5 seconds".
So, it's wasted double-digit minutes of my life, at most. It added one single step to the many tedious steps of onboarding.
> It will waste your time when you want to do anything like borrow especially for a mortgage,
The Augean amount of random bullshit you have to shovel when buying a home absolutely dwarfs the KYC compliance component of it. It's not a meaningful impediment to owning property.
> trying to transfer the stock shares directly instead of selling them first.
Transfer from where to where? One brokerage to another? What gain is there for me in doing that? Could you quantify roughly how much money I'm leaving on the table from not doing this? Where would this money come from?
> It will waste your time when want to invest in other things like a private equity fund or directly into someone else's company.
If I wanted to do that (Can't say that I do), and even if AML/KYC weren't a concern, accredited investor requirements (which I meet, FYI) would require me to jump through the exact same hoops to do that.
You're not making a convincing case for how AML/KYC is materially harming me. It's just one of a million procedural checkboxes that my counterparties ask me to meet, in order to lend me money, or take my money.
I've wasted an order of magnitude more of my life on hold with Comcast, than I have on this. If there's a vast conspiracy to keep me poor, AML/KYC is doing a piss-poor job of it.
> It will waste your time when you want to do anything like borrow especially for a mortgage,
The Augean amount of random bullshit you have to shovel when buying a home absolutely dwarfs the KYC compliance component of it. It's not a meaningful impediment to owning property.
> trying to transfer the stock shares directly instead of selling them first.
Transfer from where to where? One brokerage to another? What gain is there for me in doing that? Could you quantify roughly how much money I'm leaving on the table from not doing this? Where would this money come from?
> It will waste your time when want to invest in other things like a private equity fund or directly into someone else's company.
If I wanted to do that (Can't say that I do), and even if AML/KYC weren't a concern, accredited investor requirements (which I meet, FYI) would require me to jump through the exact same hoops to do that.
You're not making a convincing case for how AML/KYC is materially harming me. It's just one of a million procedural checkboxes that my counterparties ask me to meet, in order to lend me money, or take my money.
I've wasted an order of magnitude more of my life on hold with Comcast, than I have on this. If there's a vast conspiracy to keep me poor, AML/KYC is doing a piss-poor job of it.
[deleted]
> You're not making a convincing case for how AML/KYC is materially harming me.
I'm not the person you originally replied to. Their speculation is conflating a couple things.
I'm not the person you originally replied to. Their speculation is conflating a couple things.
You're not diversifying your risks by putting all your money in the US.
Try doing something abroad, like starting a business elsewhere, opening a bank account, investing abroad, and tell us how it goes.
Try doing something abroad, like starting a business elsewhere, opening a bank account, investing abroad, and tell us how it goes.
That highlights another point really well, the low-level financial worker's perception of "source of fund laws" (AML/KYC) is laughable, the reasoning they tell the investor/customer is laughably incorrect, just an ambiguous quip about "security purposes" or "making sure you aren't a drug dealer/terrorist/laundering money"
when thats all incorrect. from the investor/customer and low-level banker's perspective, it is impossible to distinguish between the actual law, their private company's interpretation of that law, strictly separate company policy, their implementation of that combination of things, the flaws or merits of that implementation, the flaws and merits of the law.
In this case, the person asking you actually doesn't care at all. Your role is to simple not say the bad word. A word you don't know. So you can always say pretty much anything, as long as its not "I'm on the OFAC list and I'm circumventing sanctions moving money from my heroin business".
A US citizen, for example, would never have any restriction banking in the US due to prior conduct (unless you pissed off that sector due to a history of overdrafts, bounced checks, see chexsystems). Al Capone would always be able to open a bank account or brokerage account or buy property. The Patriot Act would have never flagged the Saudi terrorist wire transfers despite being passed under the guise of flagging that kind of thing. AML/KYC is just a data mining operation masqueraded as preventing ... something. Something thats not terribly expensive, especially when compared to the amount of money that isn't flagged. Turns out people just don't want to blow up planes and buildings. The only people convicted of violating capital controls are the poorest of the proletariat that has some ambiguous and wrong understanding about "moving $10,000", and gets thrown in prison for attempting to circumvent it simply because the law against circumventing the threshold is on the books, whether the threshold would have applied to how the money was moved or not!
The entire thing is a ridiculous waste of taxpayer and public sector resources, and private sector compliance costs are probably overhanging a full digit % of the GDP growth.
Its successfully stigmatized the concept of having money, from the very population that needs and strives to have it the most! While everyone that can afford education or legal help or a dynasty of passed on knowledge is operating with complete freedom.
when thats all incorrect. from the investor/customer and low-level banker's perspective, it is impossible to distinguish between the actual law, their private company's interpretation of that law, strictly separate company policy, their implementation of that combination of things, the flaws or merits of that implementation, the flaws and merits of the law.
In this case, the person asking you actually doesn't care at all. Your role is to simple not say the bad word. A word you don't know. So you can always say pretty much anything, as long as its not "I'm on the OFAC list and I'm circumventing sanctions moving money from my heroin business".
A US citizen, for example, would never have any restriction banking in the US due to prior conduct (unless you pissed off that sector due to a history of overdrafts, bounced checks, see chexsystems). Al Capone would always be able to open a bank account or brokerage account or buy property. The Patriot Act would have never flagged the Saudi terrorist wire transfers despite being passed under the guise of flagging that kind of thing. AML/KYC is just a data mining operation masqueraded as preventing ... something. Something thats not terribly expensive, especially when compared to the amount of money that isn't flagged. Turns out people just don't want to blow up planes and buildings. The only people convicted of violating capital controls are the poorest of the proletariat that has some ambiguous and wrong understanding about "moving $10,000", and gets thrown in prison for attempting to circumvent it simply because the law against circumventing the threshold is on the books, whether the threshold would have applied to how the money was moved or not!
The entire thing is a ridiculous waste of taxpayer and public sector resources, and private sector compliance costs are probably overhanging a full digit % of the GDP growth.
Its successfully stigmatized the concept of having money, from the very population that needs and strives to have it the most! While everyone that can afford education or legal help or a dynasty of passed on knowledge is operating with complete freedom.
[deleted]
> The entire thing is a ridiculous waste of taxpayer and public sector resources, and private sector compliance costs are probably overhanging a full digit % of the GDP growth.
It's estimated that, worldwide, KYC/AML bring in only an insignifant 1/150th of the enormous compliance cost it puts on the private sector. More than two freaking orders of magnitude.
It's, indeed, a complete total and utter waste.
Not to mention that some things that used be "sacred" do not exist anymore: for example in Belgium (and in other countries I'm sure), lawyers now are forced, in many cases, to denounce potential clients that come to asks for their help.
This is beyond insanity. I do believe that even bad guys should have a right to see a lawyer without fearing that the lawyer is actually a little snitch.
It's estimated that, worldwide, KYC/AML bring in only an insignifant 1/150th of the enormous compliance cost it puts on the private sector. More than two freaking orders of magnitude.
It's, indeed, a complete total and utter waste.
Not to mention that some things that used be "sacred" do not exist anymore: for example in Belgium (and in other countries I'm sure), lawyers now are forced, in many cases, to denounce potential clients that come to asks for their help.
This is beyond insanity. I do believe that even bad guys should have a right to see a lawyer without fearing that the lawyer is actually a little snitch.
Definitely, and its all theatre, easily circumventable such that dirty/sanctioned/fraudulently acquired money is within the financial system. Its circumventable in the way that the KYC fails to assist the state in any investigation, and more!
I am hoping something like this leaks for UK. It's No. 1 destination for corrupt politicians to park their ill-earned money (atleast for Pakistani politicians).
BTW I know people who have moved there to evade taxes. It looks like people in the mall will try to get you to buy a house in cryptocurrencies, advertising that they're not asking any questions. If I was a BTC millionaire it doesn't sound like a bad deal, no taxes, no questions, and you get a house. Well, you still have to live in Dubai.
Except that the UAE is an absolute Survailance state.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/12/11/us-intelligence-ag...
https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-health-ap-top-news...
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/12/11/us-intelligence-ag...
https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-health-ap-top-news...
I pitty everyone who is trying to hide their wealth by buying real estate in Dubai.
The biggest penalty we could impose on them is make them live there.
The biggest penalty we could impose on them is make them live there.
There are loads of wealthy people living in Dubai without issues. Every country has its tradeoffs, but whenever I leave UAE I'm suddenly conscious about my wallet and dread using public bathrooms. It is what you make of it and there's a lot more here than the fake glamorous life everyone likes to moan about.
Honest question. What do you not like about Dubai? Have you ever been there?
I went here 4 years ago. Hypocritical society, everything seemed fake and useless, made just to impress. Someone was writing below about infrastructure and all that. It’s what I would imagine the US, everything being made for cars, a huge n-lane highway through the city, impossible to walk anywhere, except maybe the fake marina and the fake neighborhoods. The only genuine place there was the old town, but I might suspect that was also fake.
Public transport is for naive Europeans and the slaves, oh, sorry, the Asian people exploited to serve and run their society. The whole city is full of people impressed by the so called wealth and futurism, tasteless shops, malls and skyscrapers.
When I left I said to myself I will never come back to such a hypocritical and shallow place made for wannabe Instagram millionaires and low level mobsters.
Public transport is for naive Europeans and the slaves, oh, sorry, the Asian people exploited to serve and run their society. The whole city is full of people impressed by the so called wealth and futurism, tasteless shops, malls and skyscrapers.
When I left I said to myself I will never come back to such a hypocritical and shallow place made for wannabe Instagram millionaires and low level mobsters.
The indentured servants probably have real culture wherever they go on their four hours off to sleep, but foisting one's tourist ass into what little solace they have seems pretty gross.
It's hot, so people aren't really out. There's no sidewalks, so you just take a cab to go everywhere or go from buildings to buildings using bridges. It's all about living a luxurious life. If you've been to Vegas, it's like living in these hotels 24/7, or at least that's how I imagined living there after my trip there.
Oh and of course the culture and the politics there... you really have to look the other way.
Oh and of course the culture and the politics there... you really have to look the other way.
To add to the other replies, this video highlights the bad aspects of the city: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tJuqe6sre2I
Heat
Been there for work a couple of days.
I haven't ever been in a place that felt so fake and liveless. The only thing you can do is go to the mall.
It's dystopian in every aspect.
I haven't ever been in a place that felt so fake and liveless. The only thing you can do is go to the mall.
It's dystopian in every aspect.
> I haven't ever been in a place that felt so fake and liveless. The only thing you can do is go to the mall.
That’s not true at all. Mall is probably the last place anyone should go to in Dubai.
Instead of going to the Mall, you could drive a little and go view the wonderful collection at Louvre Abu Dhabi.
You could also go eat excellent sushi at the little (and cheap) 3 Fils at the local Fishing harbor in Jumeirah. There’s also a decent seafood restaurant next door run by local fishermen.
On Palm there’s the excellent Ibn AlBahr run by a group of Lebanese(?) fishermen.
Deira too is full of nice authentic places.
But sure, if you’re a mall enthusiast then a shitty mall is all you will find. If you seek out nice authentic places, they’re easy to find.
That’s not true at all. Mall is probably the last place anyone should go to in Dubai.
Instead of going to the Mall, you could drive a little and go view the wonderful collection at Louvre Abu Dhabi.
You could also go eat excellent sushi at the little (and cheap) 3 Fils at the local Fishing harbor in Jumeirah. There’s also a decent seafood restaurant next door run by local fishermen.
On Palm there’s the excellent Ibn AlBahr run by a group of Lebanese(?) fishermen.
Deira too is full of nice authentic places.
But sure, if you’re a mall enthusiast then a shitty mall is all you will find. If you seek out nice authentic places, they’re easy to find.
Dubai sounds decidedly better than the towns that surround it, sure, but it's pretty clear based on this description (and every other) that it is not even close to a world class city.
I mean I’m deliberately neglecting to mention all the European restaurants like L'Atelier de Joël Robuchon, LPM, Gaia, COYA, Zuma, Cipriani and so many others.
Most of these aren’t my favourites, but they’re definitely well loved in world class cities like London.
Do I think Dubai is a world class city? Nah. But it’s not very far.
Personally I’m really not a fan of the place, I’d only ever visit to meet with lawyers. Too warm, too much sand, most of the restaurants can also be found in much better cities (Monaco has most of the aforementioned within a short distance, and vastly better beaches)
Most of these aren’t my favourites, but they’re definitely well loved in world class cities like London.
Do I think Dubai is a world class city? Nah. But it’s not very far.
Personally I’m really not a fan of the place, I’d only ever visit to meet with lawyers. Too warm, too much sand, most of the restaurants can also be found in much better cities (Monaco has most of the aforementioned within a short distance, and vastly better beaches)
Corrupt amoral regime, filled with corrupt amoral people. Bliss for many here, hell for people who value humanity
It’s nice for a week or two, but gets boring pretty fast. You can only eat at L’Atelier so many times.
But it’s surely better than almost every other city in the world.
But it’s surely better than almost every other city in the world.
> But it’s surely better than almost every other city in the world
On which basis?
On which basis?
Good infrastructure, clean streets, adequate public transit, no crime.
Well connected globally.
> Good infrastructure
They don’t even have a working sewage system.
They don’t even have a working sewage system.
Hmmm. this article from 2011 says they do: https://web.archive.org/web/20130504074926/http://gulftoday....
This company is still advertising its tanker services in 2020.
https://dotless.ae/how-does-dubai-manage-its-sewage-water/
From 2016 so Dubai may have had a working sewage system for a year, so I could be wrong.
> Dubai: The emirate of Dubai will get a new deep tunnel sewerage system costing Dh12.5 billion in the next five years to replace more than 121 sewage pumping stations.
Pumping station meaning tankers transport the waste away.
https://gulfnews.com/uae/government/dubai-to-get-a-new-sewag...
https://dotless.ae/how-does-dubai-manage-its-sewage-water/
From 2016 so Dubai may have had a working sewage system for a year, so I could be wrong.
> Dubai: The emirate of Dubai will get a new deep tunnel sewerage system costing Dh12.5 billion in the next five years to replace more than 121 sewage pumping stations.
Pumping station meaning tankers transport the waste away.
https://gulfnews.com/uae/government/dubai-to-get-a-new-sewag...
From the end user perspective that still seems like a working sewage system, no?
It’s not like they’re making residents pay high taxes to pay for the tankers either.
It’s not like they’re making residents pay high taxes to pay for the tankers either.
We disagree on what a working sewage system means. Tanker trucks aren’t it. Dubai may have had a working sewage system for a year now. Not great but better than I thought was the case.
Your definition involves strange mental gymnastics to turn a perfectly functional albeit expensive sewage system into a non-working sewage system.
The end user experience of the sewage system in Dubai is no different than in regular Western cities. That’s really all that matters when trying to figure out if it’s “working” or not.
The end user experience of the sewage system in Dubai is no different than in regular Western cities. That’s really all that matters when trying to figure out if it’s “working” or not.
Restaurants, flight connections, quality of services, friendly tax regime. Restaurants obviously being the most important metric.
Sure, it’ll lose out to London, Paris, Barcelona, New York, Los Angeles, …
But it won’t lose out to cities like Manchester or Liverpool.
Sure, it’ll lose out to London, Paris, Barcelona, New York, Los Angeles, …
But it won’t lose out to cities like Manchester or Liverpool.
>Restaurants obviously being the most important metric
This reminds me a bit of Eddie Izzard's impression of the Queen: "A plumber? What on Eaaarrrthh is that?" Not everyone can eat at a restaurant nightly. Not everyone can eat. And some of the reason for that is designed into the current system.
This reminds me a bit of Eddie Izzard's impression of the Queen: "A plumber? What on Eaaarrrthh is that?" Not everyone can eat at a restaurant nightly. Not everyone can eat. And some of the reason for that is designed into the current system.
Sure, but HN audience is primarily rich tech workers, entrepreneurs and temporarily embarrassed versions of those.
In this context it makes sense to look at things from that perspective. On reddit it would of course be different.
In this context it makes sense to look at things from that perspective. On reddit it would of course be different.
I’d hope rich tech workers and entrepreneurs aren’t all ok with the amount of slavery and oppression going on in Dubai.
There is no slavery in Dubai, oppression yes, but not actual slavery.
You’ll find more slaves per capita in the US where prisoners are widely used as actual slave labor.
You’ll find more slaves per capita in the US where prisoners are widely used as actual slave labor.
There are definitely people who are enslaved in the UAE under the Kafala System. It’s unclear to me how widespread it is, but it does happen. When I was there, I personally met a woman on Tinder, and on our date she told me she had been forced into prostitution by the person who brought her to the UAE. She had to earn tens of thousands of dollars to get her passport back from him.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafala_system
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafala_system
This is absolutely illegal and you can get your passport back within a day or two by just calling MOHRE.
A decade ago this stuff may have been more common, but the government has cracked down heavily to the point that it doesn’t exist any more than it does in Europe.
A decade ago this stuff may have been more common, but the government has cracked down heavily to the point that it doesn’t exist any more than it does in Europe.
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This is the first intelligent comment I've read here.
At this point, is anybody surprised that high end real estate is a crook's game? Whether it is London, Dubai, or anywhere else, the chronically dishonest gravitate towards effortless capital gains driven by financialisation and rent seeking. It is a pity so much cash is tied up in this stuff instead of being put to use in the real economy, or simply redistributed to those who need it.
What a rotten world.
What a rotten world.
Too much people and too powerful people are benefiting from such a rotten world. Even if you somehow removed them, new people would replace them and apply the same rotten systems. The average human is not a good person. I like to think I ´d never oppress anyone, but I happen to behave like true a*hole from time to time.
That said I dream of a better world but looking at current trends, it’s quite depressing. Looks like we’re going backwards faster than ever… And I feel powerless.
That said I dream of a better world but looking at current trends, it’s quite depressing. Looks like we’re going backwards faster than ever… And I feel powerless.
I am not really sure how this is news to anyone. The UAE is not aligned with the West and generally doesn't follow their sanctions. From that perspective why wouldn't they take the money?
Not sure what sanctions have to do with it. Maybe for the last month it's been challenging for Russians, but more world oligarchs launder money through US real estate than through UAE real estate.
The UAE is a military ally of the US, and now Israel, which is why they have get out of a jail for free card.
I don't think it's being portrayed as news first, as it's just the first hard proof that a lot of these actors have investments and how they maintain their wealth and life styles despite the heavy scrutiny and weight of sanctions.
Second, I think it actually __is news__ for a lot of people just how such person's store their wealth. The schemes available once you have a huge amount of money are nothing that most people can even consider as an option for a store of wealth, so it probably is a surprise for a lot of people that yes, once you have 6 figures to throw around, you can throw that money around pretty freely, and worse, regardless of what laws are created just to restrict you.
For me I hope the take away is that sanctions aren't as much of a pressure they are made out to be and tend to harm the general populous of countries more than it does the actual actors targeted by the sanctions. Financially it does hit the actors of course, but you still have people with millions or more hidden away in places the sanctions cannot touch. It's a momentary hiccup at best in many cases and the actors continue to love lavish life styles with a nest egg to pull from that lasts decades without much of a change in life style.
All while common people suffer with money and food shortages and wondering how they're going to make a living in the years to come.
The argument might be to "rise up then!" But this is really not feasible as those in power take exceptional steps to make sure this cannot happen without an excessive bloodbath, and even with that it's not clear it will actually even help.
As I see it, as long as such places like Dubai exist and Seve clients of all types, including those who aren't the target of sanctions, the situation cannot improve by sanctions alone. If hitting these actors where it counts also means that Senator Bob Everyperson gets too much attention to their financial investments, then these financial store methods are going to continue to aid such actors and will not be touched.
I don't have an answer for how ti fix this since the world shouldn't bow to any single entity's rule; but hitting millions of innnocents who have no means to fight back or effectively change the systems they had the misfortune to be born into seems counterproductive and only strengthens the grip and popularity of these actors. Cutting off the people's access to free information only makes it worse, and limiting their ability to get fresh information makes it almost impossible to change public opinion of these actors. The end result is bad actors that don't suffer at all, look even better and more popular with their constituents, and millions suffer to get basic necessities or to secure a path to a better life.
So yes, articles like this are important I think, as it shows that it's not so black and white as just apply sanction and make bad person suffer; they don't at all. A better method needs to be found.
Second, I think it actually __is news__ for a lot of people just how such person's store their wealth. The schemes available once you have a huge amount of money are nothing that most people can even consider as an option for a store of wealth, so it probably is a surprise for a lot of people that yes, once you have 6 figures to throw around, you can throw that money around pretty freely, and worse, regardless of what laws are created just to restrict you.
For me I hope the take away is that sanctions aren't as much of a pressure they are made out to be and tend to harm the general populous of countries more than it does the actual actors targeted by the sanctions. Financially it does hit the actors of course, but you still have people with millions or more hidden away in places the sanctions cannot touch. It's a momentary hiccup at best in many cases and the actors continue to love lavish life styles with a nest egg to pull from that lasts decades without much of a change in life style.
All while common people suffer with money and food shortages and wondering how they're going to make a living in the years to come.
The argument might be to "rise up then!" But this is really not feasible as those in power take exceptional steps to make sure this cannot happen without an excessive bloodbath, and even with that it's not clear it will actually even help.
As I see it, as long as such places like Dubai exist and Seve clients of all types, including those who aren't the target of sanctions, the situation cannot improve by sanctions alone. If hitting these actors where it counts also means that Senator Bob Everyperson gets too much attention to their financial investments, then these financial store methods are going to continue to aid such actors and will not be touched.
I don't have an answer for how ti fix this since the world shouldn't bow to any single entity's rule; but hitting millions of innnocents who have no means to fight back or effectively change the systems they had the misfortune to be born into seems counterproductive and only strengthens the grip and popularity of these actors. Cutting off the people's access to free information only makes it worse, and limiting their ability to get fresh information makes it almost impossible to change public opinion of these actors. The end result is bad actors that don't suffer at all, look even better and more popular with their constituents, and millions suffer to get basic necessities or to secure a path to a better life.
So yes, articles like this are important I think, as it shows that it's not so black and white as just apply sanction and make bad person suffer; they don't at all. A better method needs to be found.
Consequences.
Positive consequences.
The entire concept of using public resources and burdonsome private sector regulations to whitelist transactions has always been shaky logic. The theatre has simply bought time on - or against - considering attempting other forms of compliance (war). But its always been bullshit and its always been an option to not play along with that, and do your own thing. UAE is doing their own thing.
Its business as usual, lots of financial conferences, crypto parties, meeting and trade spot for people of all nationalities. Thats kind of one of my favorite things about travel, going somewhere where its not taboo to run into someone from a third country.
I know a lot of people that have hung out in dubai over the last 2 months promoting whatever product or service, as if nothing else was going on in the world. Russian, America, EU citizen, Swiss, Ukrainian, Ukranian-American, Russian-America, people from other countries less involved in this conflict. Just business as usual. The weather is also pretty nice.
Sometimes its useful to just shift your mental nexus. There is a version of the world where Dubai is (or remains) its own bubble while the rest of the world is shambling along with their unrelated conflicts. Like a future bubble city like in an Aldous Huxley novel or the Jetsons.
The entire concept of using public resources and burdonsome private sector regulations to whitelist transactions has always been shaky logic. The theatre has simply bought time on - or against - considering attempting other forms of compliance (war). But its always been bullshit and its always been an option to not play along with that, and do your own thing. UAE is doing their own thing.
Its business as usual, lots of financial conferences, crypto parties, meeting and trade spot for people of all nationalities. Thats kind of one of my favorite things about travel, going somewhere where its not taboo to run into someone from a third country.
I know a lot of people that have hung out in dubai over the last 2 months promoting whatever product or service, as if nothing else was going on in the world. Russian, America, EU citizen, Swiss, Ukrainian, Ukranian-American, Russian-America, people from other countries less involved in this conflict. Just business as usual. The weather is also pretty nice.
Sometimes its useful to just shift your mental nexus. There is a version of the world where Dubai is (or remains) its own bubble while the rest of the world is shambling along with their unrelated conflicts. Like a future bubble city like in an Aldous Huxley novel or the Jetsons.
> Sometimes its useful to just shift your mental nexus. There is a version of the world where Dubai is (or remains) its own bubble while the rest of the world is shambling along with their unrelated conflicts. Like a future bubble city like in an Aldous Huxley novel or the Jetsons.
Until the oil runs out or you get khashoggid.
Until the oil runs out or you get khashoggid.
Sounds more like something from a Hemingway novel or the Great Gatsby.
Expats flitting about in their little fragile world. Unlikely to end well.
Expats flitting about in their little fragile world. Unlikely to end well.
My prediction is this will have just as much impact as the Panama Papers. Basically none.
The prime minister of Pakistan was forced to step down bc of the Panama Papers. If there's will in the courts, the leaks will have consequences.
Great that there was an impact, but still its not big enough.
> Basically none
?? secretive, highly competitive and rivalrous insider rings and you saying flatly "no impact" makes it so?
the only thing that did NOT happen was "no impact".. its not public information.. how could cascading side effects be seen or measured?
absolutely need more sleuthing IMO and data dumps -- not by tax bureacrats -- here and elsewhere
?? secretive, highly competitive and rivalrous insider rings and you saying flatly "no impact" makes it so?
the only thing that did NOT happen was "no impact".. its not public information.. how could cascading side effects be seen or measured?
absolutely need more sleuthing IMO and data dumps -- not by tax bureacrats -- here and elsewhere
"tax bureaucrats" are what took down Al Capone. These days Al would have much better lawyers and layers of shell corporations in various tax havens. He would be untouchable merely because the effort to sleuth out the truth has become much harder. Laws and regulations subdue any advantages transparency tech could bring.
Are we doomed then? Modern day All Capone´s are now richer than ever, above the laws, buying whole social networks, or becoming potus. Is there anything that can be done?
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Of course not. Whoever could cause an "impact" either:
1) Benefits from this;
2) Is very close to someone who benefits from this;
3) Has a glass-made roof and doesn't feel precisely confident in throwing rocks at other people's roofs.
1) Benefits from this;
2) Is very close to someone who benefits from this;
3) Has a glass-made roof and doesn't feel precisely confident in throwing rocks at other people's roofs.
Panama Papers had a huge impact in most of the world outside the USA, including many toppled governments.
From what I recall after listening to a podcast (I don't remember which one) on foreign policy, it's said that Putin was extremely angry that it was leaked because it exposed his wealth. It's also said that the Panama Papers helped create sanctions against him.
What did it expose specifically about him?
Serious question: what's the point of all these KYC/AML measures if they actually dont stop this stuff?
You can maintain the stability of your own markets and economy while allowing rogue/grey markets to exist outside your sphere. If you do nothing at all, it's your home's that get horded by dirty people. It also encourages your own people to be bent. If we can cheat and live on with no consequences, then only fools and true believers will follow the rules.
UAE, like a lot of places a willing blind eye to corruption and bad people because they're insulated from the traumas that were born from that dirty money.
From a personal morality standpoint, I'm all about closing off the doors to profit from corruption and misery as much as possible. What's your moral stand on the matter?
UAE, like a lot of places a willing blind eye to corruption and bad people because they're insulated from the traumas that were born from that dirty money.
From a personal morality standpoint, I'm all about closing off the doors to profit from corruption and misery as much as possible. What's your moral stand on the matter?
To provide a paper trail that the state can use to nail your local off the books tire shop/daycare/alternative pharmacy/etc when they feel like it.
Nets are for small fish.
Nets are for small fish.
I'm not surprised with the UAE. I'm more surprised this happens to a larger scale in London, illegal but sanctioned by our Conservative government.
Politicians even providing the service to rich multi nationals.
Politicians even providing the service to rich multi nationals.
>Rich Russians consider London-Dubai property swap to avoid financial scrutiny
>Prospective UAE buyers also being offered deep discounts on UK luxury homes
https://www.ft.com/content/72549746-f46f-4b91-a588-576dd928e...
>Prospective UAE buyers also being offered deep discounts on UK luxury homes
https://www.ft.com/content/72549746-f46f-4b91-a588-576dd928e...
It is still easier to launder money through london.
"Exposes criminals, criminals, and criminals."
Relatively small potatoes
I lived in Dubai and Sharjah (neighboring emirate) for almost 15 years during my childhood. This was in a time when UAE was not as glamorous as it is today. I am of Asian decent and basically had zero rights. I still remember the time when we were at the beach, a family friend was arrested for staring at the local emirati ladies (who were fully clothed in a burkha). During the time that I left (around 2000) Dubai had started to change, and was in a construction boom and had just launched the Dubai Shopping Festival (DSF). It was a month when all the retailers and shops would participate in a city wide discount program and slash 10-50% on prices. The whole city would also be covered in lights and fireworks every day. This is when Dubai started attracting a lot of investment. I admire the way the Sheikh of Dubai envisioned this, and basically built a metropolitan and business friendly city to overcome the reliance on oil earnings. But, under the surface the old regime still exists where minorities are mistreated and a blind eye is turned towards where the money is coming from. I see what's happening in Dubai as a natural progression when there is a lack of morality and humanity in society. You have to understand the roots of how these Sheikhs who were no better than local tribe leaders wandering the deserts who came upon riches (oil!) and quickly catapulted as head of states. It's going to be hard for them to regulate this behavior and knowingly or unknowingly participate in this.