Ask HN: Bullied into managing (again), how to stay on the IC technical track?
25 comments
Find a company with >500 employees that has a principal engineer track. You’re probably joining companies that are too small and have no need for a super senior IC. You will have to deal with more politics though.
If you don’t like that, you can still resist and ask for “Senior” level responsibility but people will slowly lose respect for you as you get older. That’s how humans work: we want the older people to lead us with their experience.
If you don’t like that, you can still resist and ask for “Senior” level responsibility but people will slowly lose respect for you as you get older. That’s how humans work: we want the older people to lead us with their experience.
>>If you don’t like that, you can still resist and ask for “Senior” level responsibility but people will slowly lose respect for you as you get older. That’s how humans work: we want the older people to lead us with their experience.
Is that really true? I debated this quite a bit in choosing to go back to being an IC. I get the expectation of mentorship with seniority (and maybe life experience/age) but I don't see how that necessitates being a people manager versus a technical lead to do so. I think that I so often provide that in my IC role is why I'm an attractive candidate to be pushed into management though.
Is that really true? I debated this quite a bit in choosing to go back to being an IC. I get the expectation of mentorship with seniority (and maybe life experience/age) but I don't see how that necessitates being a people manager versus a technical lead to do so. I think that I so often provide that in my IC role is why I'm an attractive candidate to be pushed into management though.
It is mostly true.
The worst part is in this industry even your junior peers will tend to not respect your experience/wisdom. They will view you as a grumpy grandpa who rants about the good old days. Let alone non-peers.
Whereas in many other industries it's not like this. A senior surgeon or pilot is always respected by their junior peers. They can brag about having done 10,000 successful flights or surgeries etc... but in our field there's no similar metric that is valued.
The exception is if you are a superhero god-level famous IC which most of us are not.
The worst part is in this industry even your junior peers will tend to not respect your experience/wisdom. They will view you as a grumpy grandpa who rants about the good old days. Let alone non-peers.
Whereas in many other industries it's not like this. A senior surgeon or pilot is always respected by their junior peers. They can brag about having done 10,000 successful flights or surgeries etc... but in our field there's no similar metric that is valued.
The exception is if you are a superhero god-level famous IC which most of us are not.
How often are you telling the organization above you that you're not comfortable continuing on in your management role? If it's not very often, they may have forgotten about you. You may consider making this a talking point the next time you have a checkin with someone up the chain.
I don't think you need to threaten to quit, just remind them of the terms of your previous agreement. If that fails to get results, don't be afraid to take a two week vacation this July to remind them that you're not the long term manager of this team. It sounds like you may need a mental health break, anyway.
To prevent this from happening in the future, I'd suggest telling people that you'd be comfortable being the interim manager for, say, two months, and will also require semiweekly status updates about the progress on seeking a new manager. You may also wish to leave management experience off your resume.
I don't think you need to threaten to quit, just remind them of the terms of your previous agreement. If that fails to get results, don't be afraid to take a two week vacation this July to remind them that you're not the long term manager of this team. It sounds like you may need a mental health break, anyway.
To prevent this from happening in the future, I'd suggest telling people that you'd be comfortable being the interim manager for, say, two months, and will also require semiweekly status updates about the progress on seeking a new manager. You may also wish to leave management experience off your resume.
You just actually quit if they refuse your hard 'no'. I was asked to be a team lead and turned it down as I know it's not right for me. I left my last company after they asked me to do a project in a similar way to an already disastrous one I was on previously. I said no, and left when it was clear that was the way they wanted the project done.
Don't threaten to quit. Line up another job, then quit without threatening.
The team should report to their skip manager until s/he hires a replacement manager. I would go talk with them and say “I didn’t fire him, you did, and I will have no choice but to resign unless you step up here”.
My friend you are me. You need to protect your managers better. I had this unfortunate situation 3 times in my career. Third time is the charm right?
Sometimes you get amazing manahers who may not be as informed as you and you don't think to grow their career. Instead of focusing on your task, find out what will make their manager value them more and accomplish that first. You need to be them and your own role, but only to the point where you can supplant their limitations.
As an IC you have to understand the reason people move to management in many cases is they are at their limits in a technical capacity so help them grow instead of forcing them to fend.
I used to ignore monthly sla reports because who cares but my manager was let go because our slas failed. He didn't understand how standard deviations work so I could have saved the job of a person who understood how to allow me to focus on the most important tasks.
Sometimes you get amazing manahers who may not be as informed as you and you don't think to grow their career. Instead of focusing on your task, find out what will make their manager value them more and accomplish that first. You need to be them and your own role, but only to the point where you can supplant their limitations.
As an IC you have to understand the reason people move to management in many cases is they are at their limits in a technical capacity so help them grow instead of forcing them to fend.
I used to ignore monthly sla reports because who cares but my manager was let go because our slas failed. He didn't understand how standard deviations work so I could have saved the job of a person who understood how to allow me to focus on the most important tasks.
This is a take I havent seen here much but maybe we can use more of. Manage the metagames to assure you can also play the games you want to play.
I personally would threaten. Setting clear boundaries is important, “I’m unhappy in my current role and I’m looking for new opportunities. I’d love to find one at _this_ company but if we can’t work something out I may have to leave.”
I’ll admit though that I’m biased and my own team is currently looking for high-level ICs (senior and principal) who want to stay and grow in that role. If you (or any readers) are interested message [email protected]
I’m a high-level IC who used to manage a team of 12. Company was more than happy to let me do IC work, hired a manager of my choice to fill my previous role, _and_ promoted me with pay increase after the transition. I’d say my work is ~50% coding, ~25% architecture discussions, 12% mentoring, and 12% leadership meetings.
I’ll admit though that I’m biased and my own team is currently looking for high-level ICs (senior and principal) who want to stay and grow in that role. If you (or any readers) are interested message [email protected]
I’m a high-level IC who used to manage a team of 12. Company was more than happy to let me do IC work, hired a manager of my choice to fill my previous role, _and_ promoted me with pay increase after the transition. I’d say my work is ~50% coding, ~25% architecture discussions, 12% mentoring, and 12% leadership meetings.
Management is an awful job yet it's also essential.
I made a post about this three years ago (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20532057) and unless you're very extroverted it sucks all the joy out of the field.
> How can I avoid being put in this situation again? I made it very clear I was not interested and wasn't really given any choice not to.
Like some others have said protect your manager, but I'd qualify that by saying provided they earn that protection and trust. Also, build a relationship where the manager is effectively working for you and then (eventually) with you.
You also have to ask yourself what sort of manager the company or the team needs. A people manager who can build connections with others and trusts (relies completely) on the team to work out the engineering? Or a technically-savvy manager, who can guide and mentor on the basics?
Not the easiest topic and these are not mutually exclusive, but depth in one usually means sacrificing the other.
Note: I'm the latter type and it's unfortunately an inhibitor to my own growth. Schmoozing is not something I can get comfortable with and soires like large company gatherings I just shut down (too much sensory input). But I'm loving how my team is growing and provide input on best practices, some architectural decisions (eventually I'll have to give this up), and technical evaluations.
I made a post about this three years ago (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20532057) and unless you're very extroverted it sucks all the joy out of the field.
> How can I avoid being put in this situation again? I made it very clear I was not interested and wasn't really given any choice not to.
Like some others have said protect your manager, but I'd qualify that by saying provided they earn that protection and trust. Also, build a relationship where the manager is effectively working for you and then (eventually) with you.
You also have to ask yourself what sort of manager the company or the team needs. A people manager who can build connections with others and trusts (relies completely) on the team to work out the engineering? Or a technically-savvy manager, who can guide and mentor on the basics?
Not the easiest topic and these are not mutually exclusive, but depth in one usually means sacrificing the other.
Note: I'm the latter type and it's unfortunately an inhibitor to my own growth. Schmoozing is not something I can get comfortable with and soires like large company gatherings I just shut down (too much sensory input). But I'm loving how my team is growing and provide input on best practices, some architectural decisions (eventually I'll have to give this up), and technical evaluations.
I suggest you look at how people perceive your value.
They obviously see you as being more valuable as being a manager than an IC.
I would look at how your 'brand' comes over and work on making sure people see the value you bring as an expert IC outweighs that of being a manager.
The more you increase your value as an IC the more costly it becomes to use you as a manager. Then you can look for a job that understands that.
I hope this helps
I would look at how your 'brand' comes over and work on making sure people see the value you bring as an expert IC outweighs that of being a manager.
The more you increase your value as an IC the more costly it becomes to use you as a manager. Then you can look for a job that understands that.
I hope this helps
I would certainly leave again - I'm really surprised that this happened to you twice, but any reasonable company would respect your wishes rather than forcing you into a role you never asked to do. It doesn't sound like you did anything wrong based on your description of the events.
I was kind of amazed when it had happened again, I was less experienced the first time. The second time with new company I was abundantly clear from day 1.
Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice..
... can't get fooled again?
The answer, as always, is to tell them what you want and walk if you care enough about getting it that you'd rather work elsewhere than stay without it.
The answer, as always, is to tell them what you want and walk if you care enough about getting it that you'd rather work elsewhere than stay without it.
Would they have fired you if you said no?
I don't know, but probably not immediately at least given the situation of not having a manager. If I was fully prepared to quit/be fired in response, I wouldn't be asking HN for advice, because quitting is obviously one option to exit the role.
Some companies do provide a technical track in which you can become a Principal Engineer with no management responsibility. But if you have experience in solving problems, you may be good as a mentor/coach to other devs.
The longer term solution to this problem may be technical consulting.
The longer term solution to this problem may be technical consulting.
There is a technical track at my company and I'm fairly high on the IC track. I took a fairly good sized pay cut when I stepped back to IC, which I was completely fine with in exchanged for the type of work. The mentoring is one of the few things I like about managing, but there's so much other downside to my quality of life and my technical skills just suffer.
Well do for others what others did for you, you had a manager that looked out for you and let you be happy as an IC. I suffer for others as others suffered for me, make the beauty of staying as you were your gift to your team. Because that's the thing, a lot of people have terrible bosses because better people don't want to be bosses, they don't step up. Now you can step up, and derive enjoyment from helping those ICs enjoy the happiness you wanted for yourself. And BE that umbrella for them, bear that burden, as those before you did for you.
You could be a great manager.
You could be a great manager.
> Well, eventually they didn't succeed at hiring a manager and designated me
A sufficiently senior IC should help interview and attract management talent into a company. You need to consider it part of your job to hire a manager to take the ICs who get assigned to you.
I get the sense you're grey haired, and people look at you as a management option based on age and experience. Again, treat it as a core responsibility to help hire managers.
A sufficiently senior IC should help interview and attract management talent into a company. You need to consider it part of your job to hire a manager to take the ICs who get assigned to you.
I get the sense you're grey haired, and people look at you as a management option based on age and experience. Again, treat it as a core responsibility to help hire managers.
You just quit. This isn't a company you want to work for. Find a manager/employer that cares about their people. It's hard, but they do exist.
You could just always stop doing your managerial duties and focus on IC. They can't actually physically force what tasks you work on. Now, they may fire you, but let's be honest, in this situation that might actually be a good thing for you, right? Because then you can go find another role that fits your proclivities better.
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This has happened more than once now. I've been very clear about the type of growth I want, and don't want to manage peoples work and growth and be the shit umbrella of organizational politics. It drains me, I like solving technical problems and systems. I enjoy that and I'm good at it. Just because I'm a decent manager too doesn't mean I want to do it.
Do I just threaten to quit if I'm continued to be forced to manage a team instead of the IC role I was hired for? How can I avoid being put in this situation again? I made it very clear I was not interested and wasn't really given any choice not to.