How to feel engaged at work: a software engineer's guide(jasont.co)
jasont.co
How to feel engaged at work: a software engineer's guide
https://jasont.co/ennui/
182 comments
I used to have so much anxiety about trying to fill 40 hours days. It led to me getting great performance reviews but feeling like shit and burning out at multiple places.
During the pandemic I work maybe 4 hours a day. I wake up late, go for a walk, review some PRs, and then dig into a task. Meetings in the afternoon, another walk, maybe a bike ride. After dinner if I have something on my mind I'll log back on and do an hour or two to get it done. I'm accessible via Slack on my phone almost all of the time, but I take ~20 minutes to respond.
So far nobody cares. I'm hitting my OKRs, I'm helping junior devs, and I get to enjoy the beautiful summer weather.
During the pandemic I work maybe 4 hours a day. I wake up late, go for a walk, review some PRs, and then dig into a task. Meetings in the afternoon, another walk, maybe a bike ride. After dinner if I have something on my mind I'll log back on and do an hour or two to get it done. I'm accessible via Slack on my phone almost all of the time, but I take ~20 minutes to respond.
So far nobody cares. I'm hitting my OKRs, I'm helping junior devs, and I get to enjoy the beautiful summer weather.
This is very similar to my schedule right now. Everything gets done. I don't feel burnt out. I'm actually able to feel healthy because I can workout during the day. It's great and no one gives a shit as long as I'm doing well.
In fact, it's much better for the company in the long run because I'm likely to stay for more than a few years because I actually enjoy my wlb.
In fact, it's much better for the company in the long run because I'm likely to stay for more than a few years because I actually enjoy my wlb.
This happened with me, and I thought to myself "how does this work? How am I still as productive as before?" And I tried to recall what life was like in the office. Turns out a lot of my time was spent trying to look busy, rather than actually being busy. It's not like I was Peter Gibbons from Office Space, I wasn't lazy or jaded. But sometimes my brain just wouldn't do what I needed it to do. And instead of doing the correct thing, which is stepping away from the computer and taking a walk, or doing the dishes or whatever, instead I just sat there and mimicked my working routine. Tons of wasted time, wasted potential, and yet it still drags on your energy just as if you were actually working. All of that was because of the social pressure due to being physically in the office.
Yup. It's incredible how often I step away and when I come back the solution is obvious to me.
I think Randy Pausch wrote this in his books that once he got family he naturally got more productive during business hours since he just wanted to get all that stuff done and go spend time with his family
If I ever become a manager I was hoping to actually institute a rule like this as a policy for people I manage. Obviously an emergency or deadline would take precedence. But I thought it would generate a lot of good will and respect if you actually gave people dedicated hours out of their week (and ideally funding or access to learning materials) specifically to work on a project of their choosing or take a class / learn material of their choosing. Would not have to be work related at all (although of course it could be) and there would be no expectation of return what so ever.
I so the same. Except I'm still spending too much time dicking off in front of the computer. I guess partly due to embarrassment about not working "full time".
Your comment inspired me to get out and do something instead. Thanks for that.
Your comment inspired me to get out and do something instead. Thanks for that.
Pretty much what I was about to say. Instead of finding ways to make something mostly out of your control (i.e. work) interesting, it's better to do less of it and use your free time for interesting projects.
The key, of course, is to get a job that isn't as demanding. Personally, I've found that most of those jobs don't pay more nor have better career growth anyway.
The key, of course, is to get a job that isn't as demanding. Personally, I've found that most of those jobs don't pay more nor have better career growth anyway.
Is your manager just next level laid back? I feel like most places are going to notice and be bothered seeing the yellow circle on your Teams or Slack status consistently for long periods of time.
If managers are spending their days watching the color of the circles next to their team member's names, maybe the managers need more work to do in order to "stay engaged" at work.
Of all the bad heuristics for trying to determine whether someone is being productive, this has to be near the bottom of the list. It's the digital equivalent of measuring engineer productivity by looking around the room and seeing who is at their desk. Except that it can be trivially gamed by a simple mouse jiggler script.
Of all the bad heuristics for trying to determine whether someone is being productive, this has to be near the bottom of the list. It's the digital equivalent of measuring engineer productivity by looking around the room and seeing who is at their desk. Except that it can be trivially gamed by a simple mouse jiggler script.
I had a manager like this. I eventually got some software to keep my computer awake/active from 7am-7pm. It was stupid.
A long Youtube video should do the “trick”
A youtube video won't work for me -- my work computer goes idle if the mouse or keyboard doesn't send input for more than 10 minutes. A lot of my work involves work off of my computer, so I just bought a USB mouse jiggler to keep my computer awake so I still get instant messages from my coworkers when I'm working offline.
Youtube didnt work for me either. VLC on the otherhand keeps my computer awake.
Totally agree but from a SWE perspective on any kind of Agile/Scrum team I think the expectation is usually that you pick up another task if you finish early and there's still time during a sprint for example.
This also obviously breeds other bad incentives i.e. the faster you work the more work you get.
This also obviously breeds other bad incentives i.e. the faster you work the more work you get.
>the faster you work the more work you get.
It took me about 2 months to learn this after getting my first job. Nowadays I intentionally add minor bugs that turn up during demos so I have stuff to "go back and fix" later.
It took me about 2 months to learn this after getting my first job. Nowadays I intentionally add minor bugs that turn up during demos so I have stuff to "go back and fix" later.
That sounds... unnecessary. There is always stuff to refactor, and tests to add, folks showing up at the last minute with new requirements. Or you can just wait a day to push commits, etc. More honest, I think.
The point is, that if you demo something and it's perfect, someone in the room is more than likely going to opine about a way it could be even better. Likely not another dev, but a product or biz person. Even if you deflect by saying "that wasn't in the story, but we'll add it to the backlog" that still takes time and unnecessary discussion.
If you leave or introduce some trivially fixable but noticable flaw in the demo, that will (hopefully) get noticed and everyone can feel that they are doing their jobs without needing to make up something.
If you leave or introduce some trivially fixable but noticable flaw in the demo, that will (hopefully) get noticed and everyone can feel that they are doing their jobs without needing to make up something.
Software is never perfect though, especially for an agile product. The reason agile the method is chosen is because they are exploring the space.
But you do touch on a real phenomenon, the Iceberg secret. The solution of which is typically to do mockups with wireframing software:
https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/02/13/the-iceberg-secret...
But you do touch on a real phenomenon, the Iceberg secret. The solution of which is typically to do mockups with wireframing software:
https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/02/13/the-iceberg-secret...
“That looks great. Just one thing – get rid of the duck.“
Refactoring and adding tests can be (and very often are) pushed into the backlog, and then never done. "We'll circle back to that after this sprint (narrator: they would not circle back to it) but for now focus on these new features"
Bugs are more urgent.
Bugs are more urgent.
Disagree. This is a misconception junior devs often have... that you need to ask permission to do your job. (Not unless the boss is dysfunctional, in which case it's time to leave.)
Tests and refactoring should be done as part of every ticket and typically don't need to be explicitly called out. This naturally pushes "done" so you don't run out of tickets early.
Tests and refactoring should be done as part of every ticket and typically don't need to be explicitly called out. This naturally pushes "done" so you don't run out of tickets early.
Yes, but the point of this was to generate (easy) work that others want you to do so they won't ask you to do other (more time-consuming) stuff instead.
You'll have a very different experience telling the product owner you spent the whole week working on bugs that they noticed and they told you to fix (even if you left them in originally on purpose) than telling them you spent all week refactoring code. The former is an instant "great!". The latter is gonna get a concerned look and more questions.
The topic wasn't correctly doing development work, but finding ways to slack off while looking good.
You'll have a very different experience telling the product owner you spent the whole week working on bugs that they noticed and they told you to fix (even if you left them in originally on purpose) than telling them you spent all week refactoring code. The former is an instant "great!". The latter is gonna get a concerned look and more questions.
The topic wasn't correctly doing development work, but finding ways to slack off while looking good.
You don't tell non-technical folks technical details, you deliver finished tickets on schedule, which makes them happy. Would you discuss what algo's you used with them? Database schema? No, then talking about unit tests is a non-sequitur as well. Complete snoozefest for non-geeks anyway.
In fact I'd be disappointed by a dev that constantly introduces careless bugs, it's a dev smell. Most bugs should be unique and result from ambiguous/incomplete specs.
Don't agree it is good advice to build a career being dishonest to others. I'm not even a goody-two-shoes... it's just not necessary in all but the most dysfunctional of places.
In fact I'd be disappointed by a dev that constantly introduces careless bugs, it's a dev smell. Most bugs should be unique and result from ambiguous/incomplete specs.
Don't agree it is good advice to build a career being dishonest to others. I'm not even a goody-two-shoes... it's just not necessary in all but the most dysfunctional of places.
I agree it's not a great idea, for multiple reasons, but I get why the poster who brought it up would prefer letting bugs slip through to padding everything with more refactoring and adding tests. Deliver features fast(er than you really should be, probably), then coast on some easy bugs for a bit.
External perception of how well a developer is doing often has very little to do with how good a job they're actually doing. I don't think making refactoring and test-making your "easy work" would have the same effect on appearances as the fast-features-and-some-bugs approach, at least at a lot of places.
External perception of how well a developer is doing often has very little to do with how good a job they're actually doing. I don't think making refactoring and test-making your "easy work" would have the same effect on appearances as the fast-features-and-some-bugs approach, at least at a lot of places.
> This is a misconception junior devs often have... that you need to ask permission to do your job
I think this is driven more by junior devs still trying to figure out what their job is.
I think this is driven more by junior devs still trying to figure out what their job is.
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The only tests we have are some for a project I worked on that I wrote to prove it could be done. Automated testing might as well be dark magic to my coworkers.
Also called “The Queen’s duck”.
https://bwiggs.com/notebook/queens-duck/
https://bwiggs.com/notebook/queens-duck/
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> from a SWE perspective on any kind of Agile/Scrum team I think the expectation is usually that you pick up another task if you finish early and there's still time during a sprint for example.
This is true, assuming that:
1. the whole team has approximately equal skill
2. the system is uniform and well-documented
3. the people actually give a shit about the product
If any of these assumptions are not met, then the expectation is naive.
This is true, assuming that:
1. the whole team has approximately equal skill
2. the system is uniform and well-documented
3. the people actually give a shit about the product
If any of these assumptions are not met, then the expectation is naive.
I can't think of any environment that I've been in where this is true. I think the closest I've been was as part of a team of three people where each of us could really handle any task in the codebase. It was also true that there were things that we each cared far more about as individuals, so, in spite of comparable skills, we tended to gravitate to specific stories, anyway.
As a manager, I have every expectation that we won't be doing scrum exactly by the book, but that's totally fine. I'm more concerned about (reasonably) consistently reproducible levels of productivity, not squeezing every point out of a sprint. If there's slack time, great. That seems to be when people are most likely to contribute new stories, learn something new, etc. Besides, rigidly following scrum feels anti-Agile, anyway. People and interactions over tools and processes.
As a manager, I have every expectation that we won't be doing scrum exactly by the book, but that's totally fine. I'm more concerned about (reasonably) consistently reproducible levels of productivity, not squeezing every point out of a sprint. If there's slack time, great. That seems to be when people are most likely to contribute new stories, learn something new, etc. Besides, rigidly following scrum feels anti-Agile, anyway. People and interactions over tools and processes.
Picking up another task doesn’t mean that it has to be finished. If one lacks skill, they can train. If documentation is missing, one can document whatever they learn. The last one is difficult to address, but not impossible. If team members don’t give a shit about the product, I bet they can still find something they give a shit about that also contributes to the product.
You make a good point. I guess as long as the people are passionate, the first two issues can be, over time, worked through. I guess the tarpit is that the "time" can be really long, especially for (skill-wise) heterogeneous team working on large undocumented projects.
It might be time to start looking for a team with a better work culture. There are many of them.
I am definitely willing to concede I may be in a bad situation but are there really teams in Agile frameworks with fibonacci pointing where you can pick up a 3-5 point ticket, finish it before the end of a sprint and not work on anything else?
Yes, there are, though that question is weirdly specific.
Is it important to you to work on a team using an Agile framework with Fibonacci pointing?
Is it important to you to work on a team using an Agile framework with Fibonacci pointing?
Not at all, just trying to make a concrete example.
I don't think you're supposed to do nothing at that point. Leisurely improve your tools, read to improve knowledge/performance, etc. This compounds your efficiency over time, without the stress of more deadlines.
I've seen plenty where a point-a-day pace or somewhat under (maybe 0.8pt/day) would be a totally normal pace, and is absolutely achievable with under half a day of actual work per day, including meetings, if you know what you're doing.
But then again, points are incommensurable between teams.
But then again, points are incommensurable between teams.
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Even if that's true, this unengaged manager still has the power to make your life difficult if they think you're not doing enough
And you have the power to schedule a skip-level 1-1 or leave the team.
One thing I've found to be consistently true: Good managers highlight concerns with your performance. Poor managers complain about your hours[1]. If they're complaining about your hours, then there's something else bothering them, but they're using this as a proxy[2]. I don't want to work with managers who are not willing to discuss the real issues. They're a pain to deal with. So I always start looking for another job when this happens.
[1] This is assuming you're not missing meetings, and it's not a role that is customer facing with defined hours (e.g. storefront that's open for an advertised set of hours).
[2] The way to tell, BTW, is there's always someone else who's working less than you're expected to but is getting a pass.
[1] This is assuming you're not missing meetings, and it's not a role that is customer facing with defined hours (e.g. storefront that's open for an advertised set of hours).
[2] The way to tell, BTW, is there's always someone else who's working less than you're expected to but is getting a pass.
>If they're complaining about your hours, then there's something else bothering them, but they're using this as a proxy[2].
This can also be a sign that the manager doesn't really know what you're doing and/or has not set clear goals for you, so they have nothing else to measure except your hours.
As VP Eng with an org of 35, my CEO was always giving me grief about the number of hours people on my team were in the office. I always pushed back with our milestone tracking. We are on target, and that's all that matters to me. People know what they need to get done, and that's what I want to manage, not hours in the office, vacation balances, or anything else. I'm not their parent. I set expectations, support them in meeting those expectations, and let them make the adult decision about their time.
This can also be a sign that the manager doesn't really know what you're doing and/or has not set clear goals for you, so they have nothing else to measure except your hours.
As VP Eng with an org of 35, my CEO was always giving me grief about the number of hours people on my team were in the office. I always pushed back with our milestone tracking. We are on target, and that's all that matters to me. People know what they need to get done, and that's what I want to manage, not hours in the office, vacation balances, or anything else. I'm not their parent. I set expectations, support them in meeting those expectations, and let them make the adult decision about their time.
Ha. I refuse to play the game. I set my slack to away the day I start and never turn it back to green. I've done this at every job during the pandemic. The stupid green bubble vs gray or yellow or whatever is a form of always being at your desk micro management and it isnt productive.
I'll happily explain that to anyone who asks but I've only had a few people ask. Again, if you get your work done most people dont give a shit.
I'll happily explain that to anyone who asks but I've only had a few people ask. Again, if you get your work done most people dont give a shit.
Similar hiding-the-signal tricks:
- Set a reminder to go fuck around with your LinkedIn profile for a few minutes every couple months, so at no point are you suddenly active on it (and so, probably thinking about looking for a new job).
- If you have a job in an office with a relaxed dress code (like most devs, probably) make a point of dressing interview-nice at least a couple times a month, from the start. That way it's not notable when you happen to dress nice one day and also happen to take a slightly long lunch....
- Set a reminder to go fuck around with your LinkedIn profile for a few minutes every couple months, so at no point are you suddenly active on it (and so, probably thinking about looking for a new job).
- If you have a job in an office with a relaxed dress code (like most devs, probably) make a point of dressing interview-nice at least a couple times a month, from the start. That way it's not notable when you happen to dress nice one day and also happen to take a slightly long lunch....
Huh, for what hide that? Would they proactively fire you?
Here, it is always joked that intentionally giving those signals is the trick to support getting the desired pay raise.. some years ago even saw one guy pulling that off.
Here, it is always joked that intentionally giving those signals is the trick to support getting the desired pay raise.. some years ago even saw one guy pulling that off.
The trouble is if you're just idly searching a bit and aren't in a hurry, you might not want your current employer (or co-workers) to start planning to be rid of you soon. At the very least, it might make things awkward.
Its strange but I never worked or can imagine working in such an environment.
When coworkers would learn I'm searching for something else they either understand me and/or try to persuade me not to jump ship. Why should they, lol? And if I go they wish me all the best as I would do to them.
And actually just the same for bosses?
When coworkers would learn I'm searching for something else they either understand me and/or try to persuade me not to jump ship. Why should they, lol? And if I go they wish me all the best as I would do to them.
And actually just the same for bosses?
Yep. After a while I disabled notifications, so Slack just doesn't disturb me when working. Sometimes I just quit it completely for an hour or two so I don't look at it because it usually sits on screen 3(the laptop) and I see stuff moving in the corner of my eye.
If someone would question my work ethic or similar because of my Slack status I would explain to them that this is bogus. If they insist, I would complain about them with their boss. If that all is not futile I would just find another job.
If someone would question my work ethic or similar because of my Slack status I would explain to them that this is bogus. If they insist, I would complain about them with their boss. If that all is not futile I would just find another job.
Yup. Shutting off slack notifications and setting status to away is day one things for me.
I worked at a place where they watched the im dot color to decide whether people were working or not, including expecting you to answer voice calls on the first three rings every time. This place was brain dead. I had to teach people not to call me or not to expect me to pick up, and I built a USB hardware mouse emulator that would move th cursor a couple px left and right while perfectly enumerating as the company’s standard issue mouse.
This place was hands down the worst place I’ve worked at. Nothing was ever getting done, everyone was running with their hair on fire constantly, it was hell. But managers paid a lot of attention to the color of the IM dot instead of, you know, fixing actual problems.
Fuck this place. I don’t miss it. I hope it gets run into the ground by the multiple layers of incompetents at the helm. But it’s unlikely, their customers are in a regulated, captive market.
This place was hands down the worst place I’ve worked at. Nothing was ever getting done, everyone was running with their hair on fire constantly, it was hell. But managers paid a lot of attention to the color of the IM dot instead of, you know, fixing actual problems.
Fuck this place. I don’t miss it. I hope it gets run into the ground by the multiple layers of incompetents at the helm. But it’s unlikely, their customers are in a regulated, captive market.
Use slack on a phone or tablet most of the time, even when actually working. Set a high notification level when "at work" so you are notified even for non-mentions. Bonus: probably the single most power-hungry and memory-eating piece of crap on your laptop, is reduced to using the tiny amount of power it takes to send a push message, on a different device.
Then it's just normal.
Then it's just normal.
Manager here. I do the same thing and I suspect a few of my reports are as well.
As long as they continue to complete their work to my satisfaction level I don’t question them on it. I’ve made clear to them that there’s a few core hours they need to make sure they can be available for meetings with other teams and our 5-10 minute standup is about the only checkin I need. I can already see their git commits and jira history so if I really really wanted to follow along as they go I check that instead of interrupting the devs.
My management might want us to work harder if they found out, but every time they’ve tried to get more productivity without increasing pay there’s been a mini exodus of employees and I think they’ve(consciously or not) picked up on the amount of output they are going to get for their salary.
The common opinion I and other managers I know well enough to speak openly with is that this a fantastic event for good managers and terrible for bad ones. The good ones work load has diminished because we as managers no longer have to do performative micromanagement for our bosses or other managers. Good managers also already were managing against plans or results that don’t change whether remote or in office. The bad managers have had their workload increase because micromanaging remotely doesn’t appear to be a solved problem
As long as they continue to complete their work to my satisfaction level I don’t question them on it. I’ve made clear to them that there’s a few core hours they need to make sure they can be available for meetings with other teams and our 5-10 minute standup is about the only checkin I need. I can already see their git commits and jira history so if I really really wanted to follow along as they go I check that instead of interrupting the devs.
My management might want us to work harder if they found out, but every time they’ve tried to get more productivity without increasing pay there’s been a mini exodus of employees and I think they’ve(consciously or not) picked up on the amount of output they are going to get for their salary.
The common opinion I and other managers I know well enough to speak openly with is that this a fantastic event for good managers and terrible for bad ones. The good ones work load has diminished because we as managers no longer have to do performative micromanagement for our bosses or other managers. Good managers also already were managing against plans or results that don’t change whether remote or in office. The bad managers have had their workload increase because micromanaging remotely doesn’t appear to be a solved problem
Not directly related to your comment, it just triggered a random reflection on micro management...
Being micro managed as a manager is even worse than as an IC - there's a certain level of badgering you have to pass on so you can satisfy higher management, and there's a limit to how much of that you can filter. So you get micromanagement of yourself plus the extra shitty feeling of having to do it to others.
Being micro managed as a manager is even worse than as an IC - there's a certain level of badgering you have to pass on so you can satisfy higher management, and there's a limit to how much of that you can filter. So you get micromanagement of yourself plus the extra shitty feeling of having to do it to others.
I got out of management for this reason. It was far easier to do my work and otherwise be left alone as an IC. As a manager there were so many meeting that were just there to tell my manager how my reports were doing. It was incredible how much time I spent just relaying tiny updates up and down the chain. Time that could have been spent doing work.
Sure, but what would be their argument against it? "Dev X is pushing his features on time, he's a nice college, always learning from him, but... Ah yeah, but he leaves work 1h before everyone else. Please fire him".
An argument could be made that the dev isn't getting either enough work or difficult enough work
So would it be better for the company for me to take on 1-2 more tickets per sprint and then leave 1+ year sooner from the company because I'm burned out?
Retention isnt talked about often but if companies spent half as much time retaining employees as they do hiring new employees then they would be far better off. A new hire needs 3-6 months before they are going to be as functional as someone who has been with a company for several years.
Retention isnt talked about often but if companies spent half as much time retaining employees as they do hiring new employees then they would be far better off. A new hire needs 3-6 months before they are going to be as functional as someone who has been with a company for several years.
Sure but I guess depending on the place I'd think unless you had an explicit agreement about leaving early that there would be pushback. "If you have enough free time to leave early you have enough time to pick up another ticket"
Which leads right back to the "screw around until the clock strikes five" road, which leads to stress, boredom and resentment. Humans are not machines. 100% efficiency is a pointy-haired manager's pipe dream.
I've left these "time to lean, time to clean" jobs in the dustbin of my teens where they belong. It's a seller's market for us geeks right now; we should take advantage of it while it lasts and find good conditions for ourselves to work in.
How do you filter for that in your job search? Questions during the interview help but it's easy to misunderstand.
I put together these questions for my job search and they have worked ok for me.
"What has turnover looked like in the past year?"
Sweat shops have high turnover, press for a number for this question.
"What are your on call expectations? How do you manage incidents out of hours? How frequently do incidents like that happen?"
If they don't mention comp time or anything like that during those three questions they probably don't offer it, and if incidents happen with any frequency you can assume you will work a good bit of unplanned overtime.
"How is my work evaluated?"
The harder the criteria here the less likely they use butts in seats management. If it's someone vauge about "how well you collaborate with the team" or similar it's probably a subjective measure probably related to if your butt is where they expect it to be when they look.
"What has turnover looked like in the past year?"
Sweat shops have high turnover, press for a number for this question.
"What are your on call expectations? How do you manage incidents out of hours? How frequently do incidents like that happen?"
If they don't mention comp time or anything like that during those three questions they probably don't offer it, and if incidents happen with any frequency you can assume you will work a good bit of unplanned overtime.
"How is my work evaluated?"
The harder the criteria here the less likely they use butts in seats management. If it's someone vauge about "how well you collaborate with the team" or similar it's probably a subjective measure probably related to if your butt is where they expect it to be when they look.
Yeah, fair point. I think the best way is using your connections -- i.e. going to work with people you already know and whose opinion you trust.
Sure, I have time enough to pick up another ticket at 3:30pm. I also have time to fuck it up because I've already racked my brain fixing two other tickets, attending a morning standup, and sitting through a company-wide DEI webinar when I should have been having lunch.
So, what would you prefer? That I clock out early because I've put in a solid day's work despite not getting to have lunch, or that I do a half-assed job just to look busy that I'll just have to revert and fix the next morning?
One gets so utterly weary of all this Taylorist bullshit that managers get in the process of earning their MBAs.
So, what would you prefer? That I clock out early because I've put in a solid day's work despite not getting to have lunch, or that I do a half-assed job just to look busy that I'll just have to revert and fix the next morning?
One gets so utterly weary of all this Taylorist bullshit that managers get in the process of earning their MBAs.
As a manager - my work habits look pretty similar. If you don't trust your peers or reports, such that you need to monitor the specific hours they're doing asynchronous/solo work, then that's a problem.
The challenge is actually getting people to take advantage of this. I work with folks who default to overworking, so I have to be pretty insistent that they take time for themselves.
The challenge is actually getting people to take advantage of this. I work with folks who default to overworking, so I have to be pretty insistent that they take time for themselves.
I currently have a manager like you and honestly this is worth a lot. It's basically part of my compensation, almost like being paid in time.
The peace of mind that comes with knowing that when I say "Hey, sorry, I need to take Wednesday off" the reply will be "Hope you've got something fun planned!" instead of the likes of "Hmm, well, we were ahead last sprint so if we slip this one it's okay" is incalculable. (I probably don't have something fun planned, but the sentiment is appreciated.)
The peace of mind that comes with knowing that when I say "Hey, sorry, I need to take Wednesday off" the reply will be "Hope you've got something fun planned!" instead of the likes of "Hmm, well, we were ahead last sprint so if we slip this one it's okay" is incalculable. (I probably don't have something fun planned, but the sentiment is appreciated.)
Yup. I've left most jobs in the past because of a bad to okay manager. I've stayed at jobs that honestly I should have left sooner because of great managers.
Good managers help you improve your skills, give you meaningful feedback, facilitate work getting done, and get out of your way.
Good managers help you improve your skills, give you meaningful feedback, facilitate work getting done, and get out of your way.
I use it as a recruiting tool. I can’t compete with FAANG salaries so one thing I do is make it clear performance objectives are accomplishment based not time based.
Most of the time my team has a good work life balance. They will all buckle up if shit hits the fan then we go back into normal mode.
Most of the time my team has a good work life balance. They will all buckle up if shit hits the fan then we go back into normal mode.
Totally. Right now we have a few tickets in the sprint that have hard deadlines. I'm actually excited to work on them because its a bit of a challenge. Most of our tickets, like most tickets regardless of if people want to admit it or not, don't have hard deadlines so we can actually get things done in a reasonable timeframe.
I don't think there is a single thing that helps retention better than WLB. Comp is a close second but someone will always pay better that you. You cant win that battle. WLB is hard to screen for while interviewing so when you find it you are less likely to take a chance on losing it by taking a new job.
I don't think there is a single thing that helps retention better than WLB. Comp is a close second but someone will always pay better that you. You cant win that battle. WLB is hard to screen for while interviewing so when you find it you are less likely to take a chance on losing it by taking a new job.
In microsoft teams you can schedule "focus" time for a max of 4 hours. This acts like DnD and books your calendar. What I did was copy the same slots into 2 more 4 hour slots. So every day I'm busy for 12 hours with DnD. It does not go to the yellow status during that time. Win-win situation if you have shitty management :P
Wait. Does slack show idleness? Maybe it’s disabled in my org. Never seen it on any of my colleagues. We are either green or gray
I think there is a yellow state. But yellow and gray are both "bad" since they are not green.
Is there? I wonder how to trigger that, don't think I've ever seen it. There's just green, grey and that little z thing for do-not-distrub for me.
Mouse jigglers are quite liberating.
Same, I get all my work done in 4 hours a week. The rest is "me" time and chores
I sincerely hate to be the bearer of bad news, but we are in the very early innings of a major global economic recession. If you like your job, I strongly suggest putting in an honest effort and work week. This past 5 years in particular have been incredibly cushy for employees, and that is about to change rapidly. I highly doubt many (if any) companies will employ a 4 day work week in a year or so.
I could also be wrong here and the correction won't be this harsh, but just throwing out a different perspective I don't feel is being shared across Hacker News enough yet.
I could also be wrong here and the correction won't be this harsh, but just throwing out a different perspective I don't feel is being shared across Hacker News enough yet.
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I found this to be an incredibly depressing article. It boiled down to, "think about pleasant things that aren't work." For example,
> Pick an activity that you've always wanted to try. Don't have ideas? Try Wikipedia for a good list of hobbies
I already have plenty of hobbies, and I'd rather work on any of them than be at work!
I've always been very self-motivated. I want to work on what I want to work on. Being forced to work on things that I don't care about in order to draw a salary sucks, and no amount of
> Schedule a 30-minute time block to freely jot down questions that spark your curiosity as an engineer. (They don't have to be about work.)
is going to change that. If anything, it makes it worse because now I would rather be investigating those questions than working!
> Pick an activity that you've always wanted to try. Don't have ideas? Try Wikipedia for a good list of hobbies
I already have plenty of hobbies, and I'd rather work on any of them than be at work!
I've always been very self-motivated. I want to work on what I want to work on. Being forced to work on things that I don't care about in order to draw a salary sucks, and no amount of
> Schedule a 30-minute time block to freely jot down questions that spark your curiosity as an engineer. (They don't have to be about work.)
is going to change that. If anything, it makes it worse because now I would rather be investigating those questions than working!
These were my thoughts as well. The article has nothing to say about being engaged at work. It's all non-work suggestions.
The best interpretation I could infer was that if you are engaged outside work, you'll be able to be more engaged at work?
My feelings about cause-and-effect are the opposite. When I'm disengaged at work, I'm less engaged outside of work. I'll try to do hobbies and stuff outside of work but it makes the contrast more drastic, which makes work less bearable.
The best interpretation I could infer was that if you are engaged outside work, you'll be able to be more engaged at work?
My feelings about cause-and-effect are the opposite. When I'm disengaged at work, I'm less engaged outside of work. I'll try to do hobbies and stuff outside of work but it makes the contrast more drastic, which makes work less bearable.
Perhaps not depressing but certainly unhelpful. If I'm spend time thinking about other more interesting stuff, I tend to get sucked into those things. Which just means I've got zero focus on stuff I need to get done.
I thought point 2 addressed engagement well. If you can get behind the purpose of the whole company, then understanding why your particular cog is important to the machine will help keep you engaged.
My spouse and I do this occasionally, where we pick a business off the street that we're walking by and think about how they make money.
I think it can work for a small business where you can hold the whole thing in your head. It's _much_ harder when you're thinking about a multi-thousand-person enterprise with a dozen product lines.
I think it can work for a small business where you can hold the whole thing in your head. It's _much_ harder when you're thinking about a multi-thousand-person enterprise with a dozen product lines.
In the beginning of a career, I can respect some of the choices mentioned in the article. But to be able to stick around in the biz you must work with something that feels meaningful.
I wish I realized earlier that changing job is no big thing. Even though one should do it for the right reasons. Once you feel like you are dying inside at a workplace it is not like a hobby will fix that.
I wish I realized earlier that changing job is no big thing. Even though one should do it for the right reasons. Once you feel like you are dying inside at a workplace it is not like a hobby will fix that.
Unfortunately, many (many!) people are not intrinsically-motivated like you or I and would rather do other things (unpopular opinion: many people are perfectly fine with doing nothing, and I mean not a DAMN thing). This article is for them.
Having intrinsic motivation for your work is a huge privilege. Be thankful for it!
Having intrinsic motivation for your work is a huge privilege. Be thankful for it!
> Having intrinsic motivation for your work is a huge privilege. Be thankful for it!
Just to clarify, I am intrinsically motivated for my work. I am not intrinsically motivated at work. I've actually begun to see the industry I work in as kind of dumb.
Just to clarify, I am intrinsically motivated for my work. I am not intrinsically motivated at work. I've actually begun to see the industry I work in as kind of dumb.
i need to purposefully avoid thinking about my hobbies at work or i'll get too distracted daydreaming
Hypnosis worked for Peter Gibbons.
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My motto is: I don't want to work on a CRUD app. I want computer science to actually be part of what I do. Not parsing and validation and deployments and migrations.
But finding these jobs where actual "what you do with the data" is the majority work, and the fluff around it is a minority, is HARD and such jobs seem to be more far between. Perhaps because the software jobs that used to be difficult algorithmic problems are now so specialised (Data scientist, Game engines, AI, ...). And that's a bit sad. For those of us who get a kick out of not making a Todo app in an ever cooler JS framework but instead like to write the synth/raytracer/fluid sim/game/, the job market has become pretty boring. Luckily I have a job that ticks the boxes, but it's hard to find another.
But finding these jobs where actual "what you do with the data" is the majority work, and the fluff around it is a minority, is HARD and such jobs seem to be more far between. Perhaps because the software jobs that used to be difficult algorithmic problems are now so specialised (Data scientist, Game engines, AI, ...). And that's a bit sad. For those of us who get a kick out of not making a Todo app in an ever cooler JS framework but instead like to write the synth/raytracer/fluid sim/game/, the job market has become pretty boring. Luckily I have a job that ticks the boxes, but it's hard to find another.
I am the same way. This is where smaller companies thrive because you get exposure to more of the stack. Just have to find the right domains with interesting problems. For me that’s building analytics and visualization tools for scientific and engineering modeling data
IMHO those jobs are exceedingly rare, because all the roles with difficult algorithmic problems seem to have the grind around them as the majority of work that needs to be done. You mention data science, well, if you're doing serious data analytics two thirds or more of your time is converting data from one form to another and handling its flow; if you're doing cutting edge AI research, most of your time is devoted to 'plumbing' required to run these experiments, and only a minority to the algorithms you're researching. The same is pretty much everywhere, so if you find a job where that does not apply, that's quite exceptional.
agree with this 100%. I am considering going into management purely because i cannot get myself to write another screen to db crud app. Just the thought makes me depressed.
There are tons ways to escape: security, sre, engineering sales, etc etc.
These are just as tedious as web programming. SRE even worse. Security might have a few research roles if you’re really lucky but most are boring jobs where you nag people to do things they don’t care about
I'd put those in the bin with "Stuff that just goes on around what programs do but doesn't actually relate to what they do".
Burning Man taught me an important lesson about expectations and satisfaction. You can't go to Burning Man and expect everybody else to give you a good time all the time, or you can end up bored, bummed out, and alone in a crowd. If you want a fun time, bring it with you. Don't spectate, participate.
Give yourself a small purpose and spend some of your work day on it. Make it something that feels rewarding. Remember, 1/3 of your life is spent at work.
Maybe you only want to focus on the technical. That doesn't mean only becoming an expert in one domain, but also pulling in knowledge from other domains for perspective and inspiration. Maybe you learn how the operating system works, or embedded design. Maybe learn how car ECUs work. Maybe in learning about cars you notice different companies make different designs, decisions, priorities, leading to different outcomes. Maybe you learn about NUMMI and the Toyota Production System. Then maybe you hear tech buzzwords that come from Toyota and find out how they're related. Then maybe you take all those non-technical ideas back into your technical work.
If you like to solve problems, you don't have to stop at technical ones. You can work on organizational problems, financial problems, logistical problems, communication problems, architectural problems. There's a million problems outside your domain of expertise, and you can learn about all of them. Your biggest problem is an overabundance of choice.
If you like to help people, you don't have to help just your immediate team. You can look at other teams and see if they need help. Maybe not even business help, but personal help. Maybe you'd like to join an employee resource group, or organize one; or a charity bake sale, or a hackathon. Or work on convincing your job to have a donation matching program, or finding a local charity to reinvest some percentage of profit into, or convincing execs to give everyone the day off on election day.
Give yourself a small purpose and spend some of your work day on it. Make it something that feels rewarding. Remember, 1/3 of your life is spent at work.
Maybe you only want to focus on the technical. That doesn't mean only becoming an expert in one domain, but also pulling in knowledge from other domains for perspective and inspiration. Maybe you learn how the operating system works, or embedded design. Maybe learn how car ECUs work. Maybe in learning about cars you notice different companies make different designs, decisions, priorities, leading to different outcomes. Maybe you learn about NUMMI and the Toyota Production System. Then maybe you hear tech buzzwords that come from Toyota and find out how they're related. Then maybe you take all those non-technical ideas back into your technical work.
If you like to solve problems, you don't have to stop at technical ones. You can work on organizational problems, financial problems, logistical problems, communication problems, architectural problems. There's a million problems outside your domain of expertise, and you can learn about all of them. Your biggest problem is an overabundance of choice.
If you like to help people, you don't have to help just your immediate team. You can look at other teams and see if they need help. Maybe not even business help, but personal help. Maybe you'd like to join an employee resource group, or organize one; or a charity bake sale, or a hackathon. Or work on convincing your job to have a donation matching program, or finding a local charity to reinvest some percentage of profit into, or convincing execs to give everyone the day off on election day.
> make time to be curious.
This is kinda dangerous advice, because I've been involved in countless CRUD apps where the developers were bored and made things more interesting for themselves; NoSQL databases, difficult programming languages like Scala, microservices, CQRS, infrastructure-as-code that was never used in practice (it was wishful-thinking-as-code), home-rolled frameworks (one involved the CTO / lead developer to basically work from home and stay underwater for six months before coming out with a C# framework; it was just e-commerce that used a 3rd party to do all the heavy lifting), etc.
Heed the magpie developer. Choose boring technology. Eat the shit sandwich or move on if you think CRUD is beneath you.
This is kinda dangerous advice, because I've been involved in countless CRUD apps where the developers were bored and made things more interesting for themselves; NoSQL databases, difficult programming languages like Scala, microservices, CQRS, infrastructure-as-code that was never used in practice (it was wishful-thinking-as-code), home-rolled frameworks (one involved the CTO / lead developer to basically work from home and stay underwater for six months before coming out with a C# framework; it was just e-commerce that used a 3rd party to do all the heavy lifting), etc.
Heed the magpie developer. Choose boring technology. Eat the shit sandwich or move on if you think CRUD is beneath you.
I wonder if a plain old CRUD app in a fill-in-the-blanks framework really is the best kind of job for a developer. I'd like to try it at least once in my career and see if there is any truth to it.
It would also be nice to have a job solving interesting computer science problems, like building compilers, tools, optimisation systems, etc. But that's unlikely unless you're actually a genius, or at least an accomplished academic, but some of the things you have to do to get ahead in academia seem even more demeaning than writing CRUD apps.
Instead every single job in my career has been the mess that you describe, and I'm starting to lose hope that there is anything other than it in this industry. I think it's the absolute worst of both worlds. You're solving completely trivial problems, but you're forced to do it in the most convoluted way possible. You sit all day racking your brain under maximum cognitive load trying to accomplish something so trivial and mundane that every single fill-in-the-blanks framework already does for you out of the box.
It would also be nice to have a job solving interesting computer science problems, like building compilers, tools, optimisation systems, etc. But that's unlikely unless you're actually a genius, or at least an accomplished academic, but some of the things you have to do to get ahead in academia seem even more demeaning than writing CRUD apps.
Instead every single job in my career has been the mess that you describe, and I'm starting to lose hope that there is anything other than it in this industry. I think it's the absolute worst of both worlds. You're solving completely trivial problems, but you're forced to do it in the most convoluted way possible. You sit all day racking your brain under maximum cognitive load trying to accomplish something so trivial and mundane that every single fill-in-the-blanks framework already does for you out of the box.
I had a sudden realization that this is currently the biggest problem in "tech" after reading this hacker news comment - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25968087
Somehow we have an industry of people who believe that work needs to be a source of personal entertainment instead of, you know, work.
Expectations need to change. Imagine if other occupations were like this? You hire a plumber to fix a clog and they spend the entire day on fastening some custom device because they felt that using a drain snake was just too boring.
Somehow we have an industry of people who believe that work needs to be a source of personal entertainment instead of, you know, work.
Expectations need to change. Imagine if other occupations were like this? You hire a plumber to fix a clog and they spend the entire day on fastening some custom device because they felt that using a drain snake was just too boring.
It's probably more obvious how it affects the bottom line to those who make and do things in the physical realm. For example, I recently had a new septic system put in. The contractor decided to be clever, and ended up having to redo everything, taking up several people and machines for three more days. That probably cost them more than their profit margin on that whole job, and they're not going to forget about it any time soon.
Compare to product owners and engineering managers who either have no clue how bad it is, or have been conditioned to believe that it is completely normal or even desirable.
>Somehow we have an industry of people who believe that work needs to be a source of personal entertainment instead of, you know, work.
More importantly it should be a source of money for living without either burning yourself out or causing the poor sods who have to clean up after you to burn out. The current state of affairs is hurting both employees and employers. Just telling the employees off doesn't change anything or help anyone.
Compare to product owners and engineering managers who either have no clue how bad it is, or have been conditioned to believe that it is completely normal or even desirable.
>Somehow we have an industry of people who believe that work needs to be a source of personal entertainment instead of, you know, work.
More importantly it should be a source of money for living without either burning yourself out or causing the poor sods who have to clean up after you to burn out. The current state of affairs is hurting both employees and employers. Just telling the employees off doesn't change anything or help anyone.
100% agree and can relate. Part of our "estate" is exactly that type of a project - all that was required was a CRUD app, what we got and have to maintain is an app written in functional style written with 3 layered frameworks using Hexagonal Architecture. In answer to the question "Why?", the response was - "We were bored."
This is reasonable advice but it carries the assumption that "simplest is easiest". It is in hindsight. People sometimes say "It's easy to make a complicated solution for a simple problem, but not the other way around," and it's painfully true, as Rube Goldberg noticed. But of course that means we actually have a real challenge if we get our priorities straight.
There are still tedious/repetitive things that come up, though, and if the repetition is bad enough, then there are opportunities to do something clever... But again: Can it be done simply enough to make it worthwhile? Another challenge.
And sometimes you just gotta do the dirty work dirty, and hang in there. Admittedly that is part of any job done well, in the long run.
There are still tedious/repetitive things that come up, though, and if the repetition is bad enough, then there are opportunities to do something clever... But again: Can it be done simply enough to make it worthwhile? Another challenge.
And sometimes you just gotta do the dirty work dirty, and hang in there. Admittedly that is part of any job done well, in the long run.
TBH, I'm fine with people who want to flex refusing to work on CRUD apps. CRUD apps are my favorite. They pay well, rarely demand overtime, and never have me on call after hours. They're great for developers who just want to do a job, get paid, and have a life that doesn't revolve around tech.
Here's my advice on the same topic after living through burnout and "blah" several times:
Make your job the union of what you're interested in and what is valuable to the business.
You have to know what is valuable to the business; that knowledge is challenging to acquire but will _always_ help you in any role. It has to be true and verified with stakeholders, not your gut. There are soft skills involved here.
You also have to know what you're interested in, which is also not easy after building CRUD apps for years.
And you have to sell it — more soft skills.
If you can — you can! — the result is a job description or project that you helped co-create, that you own in the most meaningful sense of the word, and that you're more excited to work on. The add on results is that you are more valuable to that specific company, and you've leveled up soft skills and business thinking that makes you more valuable to any company.
I've done this consciously several times in at least 4 companies of various sizes. I've ended up building a new mobile architecture platform and library, a data warehouse and ETLT pipeline, multiple projects in languages I wanted to learn, new frameworks and libraries for various other industry-specific web dev things, and a few rewrites of legacy software.
I still feel blah a lot of the time, and still think my path through this industry has been... non-optimized to say the least, but I have a path that helps me reengage when I have the energy for internal sales.
Make your job the union of what you're interested in and what is valuable to the business.
You have to know what is valuable to the business; that knowledge is challenging to acquire but will _always_ help you in any role. It has to be true and verified with stakeholders, not your gut. There are soft skills involved here.
You also have to know what you're interested in, which is also not easy after building CRUD apps for years.
And you have to sell it — more soft skills.
If you can — you can! — the result is a job description or project that you helped co-create, that you own in the most meaningful sense of the word, and that you're more excited to work on. The add on results is that you are more valuable to that specific company, and you've leveled up soft skills and business thinking that makes you more valuable to any company.
I've done this consciously several times in at least 4 companies of various sizes. I've ended up building a new mobile architecture platform and library, a data warehouse and ETLT pipeline, multiple projects in languages I wanted to learn, new frameworks and libraries for various other industry-specific web dev things, and a few rewrites of legacy software.
I still feel blah a lot of the time, and still think my path through this industry has been... non-optimized to say the least, but I have a path that helps me reengage when I have the energy for internal sales.
Do you mean intersection, not union? Union is kind of a fantasy, getting paid to have your own fun.
Yes, I did mean intersection, thank you.
I want to be less engaged! Leaving work behind both physically and mentally at 5pm is important to me.
I want to treat my work as a necessary "transaction" and don't want to devote any additonal energy to it than is required. Save your mental energy for your own life and activities.
Sure we all want our work to be fulfilling, but from experience I would urge against getting too "into" your work.
I want to treat my work as a necessary "transaction" and don't want to devote any additonal energy to it than is required. Save your mental energy for your own life and activities.
Sure we all want our work to be fulfilling, but from experience I would urge against getting too "into" your work.
"Fulfilling" work is a huge privilege.
As a high school dropout who eventually did community college to a degree in computer science at a UC, I've worked all kinds of minimum wage, soul-sucking jobs in between. Just having enough money and free time now to do anything else besides my job has been such an amazing gift, and I could give two shits at this point if I sometimes have to deal with a GWT codebase regularly.
As a high school dropout who eventually did community college to a degree in computer science at a UC, I've worked all kinds of minimum wage, soul-sucking jobs in between. Just having enough money and free time now to do anything else besides my job has been such an amazing gift, and I could give two shits at this point if I sometimes have to deal with a GWT codebase regularly.
Another way to do this that isn't about escaping from your boring work is... well, making your work more interesting.
Have a good idea? Coordinate with the right people and go for it. Even if nobody asked you to.
You should never feel like you need someone's authorisation to do a good job.
Becoming free anywhere, even within one's regular work, is not about asking for freedom -- it's about insisting to act as if one is already free.
Or, as Grace Hopper put it, "it's far easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission."
----
Sometimes this will lead to wonderful things.
Sometimes, sure, this will get you into a mess, but honestly, weren't you sort of already? Spending a 25 % of your life somewhere you are unable to engage is messed up.
Have a good idea? Coordinate with the right people and go for it. Even if nobody asked you to.
You should never feel like you need someone's authorisation to do a good job.
Becoming free anywhere, even within one's regular work, is not about asking for freedom -- it's about insisting to act as if one is already free.
Or, as Grace Hopper put it, "it's far easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission."
----
Sometimes this will lead to wonderful things.
Sometimes, sure, this will get you into a mess, but honestly, weren't you sort of already? Spending a 25 % of your life somewhere you are unable to engage is messed up.
This is what I try to do, but at the org I work for there's a low key assumption that Devs are too stupid to do anything but what can be implemented in a sprint, no matter the complexity of the problem (which obviously leads to poor engineering outcomes). Teams are criticized when there're no 0-burndowns by people upstairs so everyone adapted by vastly simplifying solutions/work to fit that expectation.
Be careful. Stay at one of these places too long, or work at too many in a row, and you’ll end up so burned out that you won’t be able to even entertain the idea of programming ever again for quite some time. Been there, got the t-shirt.
To me - this article reads a lot like pure copium. This is the advice from a selfish manager who refuses to invest in their employees and instead tries to be extremely transactional and harvest as much as they can before PIPing them and managing them out.
Engagement is almost entirely dictated by your employer - not the employee. You need a good manager, good team, and decent work to stay engaged.
Engagement is almost entirely dictated by your employer - not the employee. You need a good manager, good team, and decent work to stay engaged.
I liked the article and the wikipedia page for hobbies is very interesting, I've found some gems...
- Magnet Fishing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet_fishing)
- Binge watching ( didn't know it can be called as a hobby - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binge-watching )
- Constructing languages ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructed_language )
- Tea bag collecting ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_bag )
- Magnet Fishing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet_fishing)
- Binge watching ( didn't know it can be called as a hobby - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binge-watching )
- Constructing languages ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructed_language )
- Tea bag collecting ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_bag )
+1 for constructed languages. Fascinating hobby. I've dabbled myself.
Bonus: Tolkien would approve.
Bonus: Tolkien would approve.
> "Oh, I'm just building another CRUD app",
Sometimes that's all there is to it. This is work - fulfillment is optional.
For this reason I try to engage in a measly paid, but interesting project from time to time.
I'm currently in one. I won't be buying that apartment I wanted any time soon, but I can say with confidence that I like my job.
Sometimes that's all there is to it. This is work - fulfillment is optional.
For this reason I try to engage in a measly paid, but interesting project from time to time.
I'm currently in one. I won't be buying that apartment I wanted any time soon, but I can say with confidence that I like my job.
Why would I want to be engaged at work? I just want to do my job and get paid. I think that expecting emotional fulfillment or meaning from my job is a trap, a way to con me into working more while accepting less pay than I deserve.
Work won't love me back, so why should I love my work? I lost interest in unrequited love back in high school when I outgrew my Young Werther phase.
Work won't love me back, so why should I love my work? I lost interest in unrequited love back in high school when I outgrew my Young Werther phase.
> "Why would I want to be engaged at work? I just want to do my job and get paid."
Because a career spans 40-50 years of being employed in one's profession. As the slow but steady stream of Ask HN's that boil down to "How do I get out of the software industry?" highlight, one pretty must has to derive at least some minimal enjoyment of their profession to help avoid becoming jaded or burnt out.
Because a career spans 40-50 years of being employed in one's profession. As the slow but steady stream of Ask HN's that boil down to "How do I get out of the software industry?" highlight, one pretty must has to derive at least some minimal enjoyment of their profession to help avoid becoming jaded or burnt out.
but I want my work to be engaging...
it seems like I want this out of an existencial instict; one which the modern world has completely disregarded.
I want it, but I know (and I agree with your stance) that I will not find it in any "industry" work; academic work, on the other hand, does rely on this kind of self-motivated engagement much more than industry but has other problems.
it seems like I want this out of an existencial instict; one which the modern world has completely disregarded.
I want it, but I know (and I agree with your stance) that I will not find it in any "industry" work; academic work, on the other hand, does rely on this kind of self-motivated engagement much more than industry but has other problems.
> it seems like I want this out of an existencial instict; one which the modern world has completely disregarded.
Has the modern world completely disregarded this existential need, or have capitalists weaponized it against workers?
Has the modern world completely disregarded this existential need, or have capitalists weaponized it against workers?
> Why do web applications have no sound?
Collective trauma in the current web application-building cohort from the dark days of the 90s/00s?
Collective trauma in the current web application-building cohort from the dark days of the 90s/00s?
It is utteriy pointless to convince yourself to be exited about your job if you cant feel it. And it wont last long. If you decline your own emotions its not going to end well.
This feels more like how to not be miserable than stay engaged. I would have accepted do it for the money they pay you so much money you can retire early and end the misery.
I know that this wasn't the point of the article, but please don't ever do this.
> Why do web applications have no sound? Why can't we make boring internal tools come to life with sound, in the same way that UI on a Nintendo Switch pops and clicks and whistles?
> Why do web applications have no sound? Why can't we make boring internal tools come to life with sound, in the same way that UI on a Nintendo Switch pops and clicks and whistles?
Sound can work well on the web[1], as long as it isn't over the top, there's no reason it couldn't be used more.
I've been considering adding some sounds[2] to the project I'm working on.
1: https://www.joshwcomeau.com/react/announcing-use-sound-react... 2: https://github.com/snd-lib/snd-lib
I've been considering adding some sounds[2] to the project I'm working on.
1: https://www.joshwcomeau.com/react/announcing-use-sound-react... 2: https://github.com/snd-lib/snd-lib
If you add sounds to anything on the web, please, please, make a top-level, easily identifiable mute button.
And mute the sound by default!
In my experience, one of the key factors of being engaged with one's work is feeling a sense of progress or accomplishment. Few things sap motivation more than the feeling that you're just spinning your wheels and nothing is getting done.
I realize that if you're not a team lead or manager, this is difficult to implement. However, sometimes physical manifestations of progress can make progress feel more tangible. For example, if you have to churn through tickets, make a little card for each one. And push them from a pending pile into the done pile as you go. This makes your progress more visible and tangible than a number on a website. Of course, a big "to do" pile may demotivate some folks. YMMV.
Just a bit of food for thought.
I realize that if you're not a team lead or manager, this is difficult to implement. However, sometimes physical manifestations of progress can make progress feel more tangible. For example, if you have to churn through tickets, make a little card for each one. And push them from a pending pile into the done pile as you go. This makes your progress more visible and tangible than a number on a website. Of course, a big "to do" pile may demotivate some folks. YMMV.
Just a bit of food for thought.
I won’t spoil the article, but the advice is great. I’ll give number 4 a try. But the hobbies page of Wikipedia is too long and unorganized for my tastes.
Anyone have any cool hobbies?
Anyone have any cool hobbies?
“1:1 podcast with you as the guest”
Anyone can call me and say hi. We chat about anything you’re passionate about, pair program or… rant.
I’ve met a tonne of fascinating people this way. Another neat side-effect of that was filling my backlog with new project ideas (mostly thanks to rants).
Come and say hi! http://sonnet.io/posts/hi/
Anyone can call me and say hi. We chat about anything you’re passionate about, pair program or… rant.
I’ve met a tonne of fascinating people this way. Another neat side-effect of that was filling my backlog with new project ideas (mostly thanks to rants).
Come and say hi! http://sonnet.io/posts/hi/
I used to collect catalogs when they were still paper based. I’d punch ‘order catalog’ into Google and find all sorts of weird manufacturers and retailers selling specialty crap.
Taxidermy supplies, figurines suppliers (from Hummel to Gundam), not to mention the tomes from electronics and engineering distributors like R.S, which are still available (usually at a fee).
Sure you can do it just browsing an ecommerce website, but it’s not the same.
I think I just liked seeing a snapshot of a specific industry’s craft.
I opportunistically go to random trade fairs when I’m travelling now - there’s always one or two in a given major city. Similar ‘snapshot of an industry’ experience.
Taxidermy supplies, figurines suppliers (from Hummel to Gundam), not to mention the tomes from electronics and engineering distributors like R.S, which are still available (usually at a fee).
Sure you can do it just browsing an ecommerce website, but it’s not the same.
I think I just liked seeing a snapshot of a specific industry’s craft.
I opportunistically go to random trade fairs when I’m travelling now - there’s always one or two in a given major city. Similar ‘snapshot of an industry’ experience.
Bouldering seems to be really popular amongst Software Engineers I know.
Taps into many things that Software Engineers typically like.
Walls often require problem solving as well as physical ability.
Walls are shorter than rock climbing walls (fast iteration cycles/“dev loop”)
Lots of different difficulties for a clear sense of progression.
Indoors (usually). Can be done solo.
Taps into many things that Software Engineers typically like.
Walls often require problem solving as well as physical ability.
Walls are shorter than rock climbing walls (fast iteration cycles/“dev loop”)
Lots of different difficulties for a clear sense of progression.
Indoors (usually). Can be done solo.
I make math problems for Math Olympiads for kids, and bouldering feels similar. To build an interesting wall it must not be obvious, but it must be solvable. From time to time I fell in the rabbit hole of a YouTube channel that explain unusual solutions "Beta Break!" by Albert Ok: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsfWe31L6Quop7WDY7ky7... (Note: I only climb stair, and only if they are not too stepped :) .)
Every one of my coworkers who boulders gets injured (usually lightly) on a regular basis. After climbing (on a rope) for more than a decade, I've never had an injury.
Due to the fact you have to ramp up the per-move difficulty much faster on a bouldering problem as the grade increases, the chance per injury on any given move is much higher (e.g. if you chopped a bouldering-sized section out of a 5.12a, it wouldn't be that hard of a problem, but having to do 3-4x such problems in a row is much more grueling). The types of injury one gets from such intense exertion will impact one's ability to type too (e.g. finger pulley injuries, elbow injuries either in terms of the rotation of one's wrist or spraining if one does the typical "fall off the wall and put your hands behind you" thing I've seen on the bouldering wall).
> Can be done solo.
I'd argue this is a bug, not a feature. I've made so many great friends at the climbing gym by just asking people on the autobelays if they want to pair up for roped climbing (or joining an odd-numbered group of people to even it out), yet I see so many boulderers just silently do their thing with their airpods in.
For software engineers who don't get a lot of reps in social situations in the nature of our jobs, this is a very easy venue to learn to meet new people in a low-stakes situation.
Due to the fact you have to ramp up the per-move difficulty much faster on a bouldering problem as the grade increases, the chance per injury on any given move is much higher (e.g. if you chopped a bouldering-sized section out of a 5.12a, it wouldn't be that hard of a problem, but having to do 3-4x such problems in a row is much more grueling). The types of injury one gets from such intense exertion will impact one's ability to type too (e.g. finger pulley injuries, elbow injuries either in terms of the rotation of one's wrist or spraining if one does the typical "fall off the wall and put your hands behind you" thing I've seen on the bouldering wall).
> Can be done solo.
I'd argue this is a bug, not a feature. I've made so many great friends at the climbing gym by just asking people on the autobelays if they want to pair up for roped climbing (or joining an odd-numbered group of people to even it out), yet I see so many boulderers just silently do their thing with their airpods in.
For software engineers who don't get a lot of reps in social situations in the nature of our jobs, this is a very easy venue to learn to meet new people in a low-stakes situation.
injuries come from pushing the limits of your skill and physical fitness. an aggressive climber is much more likely to get injured on a bouldering problem, but you can still mess up your hands crimping on a toprope route you haven't trained for appropriately. you get to choose whether you want to be this person. I never "fall" on bouldering problems. I just climb down if I'm not confident I can make a dyno. I'll never tackle a V8 this way, but who cares?
as for the social aspect, I'd say that depends a lot on your local gym. the toprope area tends to be pretty packed where I go. people are either climbing or belaying; it's not a good place to stand around and chat. in the bouldering area, there's almost always an active conversation going about the newest problems. I find people are very open to a quick chat between problems.
as for the social aspect, I'd say that depends a lot on your local gym. the toprope area tends to be pretty packed where I go. people are either climbing or belaying; it's not a good place to stand around and chat. in the bouldering area, there's almost always an active conversation going about the newest problems. I find people are very open to a quick chat between problems.
Bouldering has to be the nerdiest sport. You spend most of your time sitting and problem-solving with intermittent short bursts of work, you can do it at any level of fitness, and there's no competition. I'm kind of surprised nobody has combined a math game with it yet, where as you climb you uncover numbers that tell you where the next hold is so you can't pre-plan your route.
I remembered coming across an interactive bouldering game a while ago, which used a projector to light up holds to create a custom problem each time. I couldn't find it with a quick search, but I did find this list of bouldering wall games:
http://www.canadarockclimbing.com/games.html
which includes 'Pointer', where a partner uses a broomstick to point out the next hold in the sequence just as the climber has reached the previous hold.
http://www.canadarockclimbing.com/games.html
which includes 'Pointer', where a partner uses a broomstick to point out the next hold in the sequence just as the climber has reached the previous hold.
3D printing is a fun hobby that combines engineering skills with actual useful stuff. Just printed a set of tablecloth clamps for camping.
Speaking of, camping! Nice to get some fresh air and away from screens for a bit. And I love cooking over an open fire.
Speaking of, cooking! Once you get a little practice, you can really dazzle yourself and others with some delicious food. Especially when you realize that cooking is not actually as fiddly as it seems. Once you have enough experience under your belt to substitute and improvise and just throw something together the real fun begins. I recommend https://www.youtube.com/c/GlenAndFriendsCooking . Just pick a recipe and go for it, and Glen has very practical advice about exactly how unnecessary the fiddly parts of cooking are.
Other things I do: retro video games and related electronics projects (currently building a supergun to play arcade games at home), learn yo-yo tricks, read books, garden, play music.
Lack of hobbies isn't the problem. If someone would pay me a salary just to do my hobbies I'd be extremely happy.
Speaking of, camping! Nice to get some fresh air and away from screens for a bit. And I love cooking over an open fire.
Speaking of, cooking! Once you get a little practice, you can really dazzle yourself and others with some delicious food. Especially when you realize that cooking is not actually as fiddly as it seems. Once you have enough experience under your belt to substitute and improvise and just throw something together the real fun begins. I recommend https://www.youtube.com/c/GlenAndFriendsCooking . Just pick a recipe and go for it, and Glen has very practical advice about exactly how unnecessary the fiddly parts of cooking are.
Other things I do: retro video games and related electronics projects (currently building a supergun to play arcade games at home), learn yo-yo tricks, read books, garden, play music.
Lack of hobbies isn't the problem. If someone would pay me a salary just to do my hobbies I'd be extremely happy.
I’d love to get into 3D printing, but the sheer amount of waste I’d produce is too much for me. I looked into recycling wasted filament into new filament, and all the reviews of different devices made it seem very hit or miss.
Is there a good way to not generate plastic waste and still get into 3D printing?
Is there a good way to not generate plastic waste and still get into 3D printing?
If you print things that you'd buy anyway the packaging would make up for a good bit of waste plastic.
I got into 3D printing miniatures and statues and stuff during the pandemic. Spent one of the stimulus checks on a good resin printer, was astounded by the quality. Then realized the filament printers were a better idea for some prints and bought 3 of them.
Then I wanted painted stuff, so I bought some cheap store paints, they were okay so I bought some hobby paints which were excellent. It really wows people instead of getting them some cheap present for Christmas printing them a cool statue and painting it up.
Another thing is that 3D printers are still very hacker ish so for me another fun part was analyzing what upgrades were actually functional and helped me print faster/more accurately and only doing those upgrades. This includes software side like compiling your own open source firmware and integrating a general purpose CPU in a Raspberry Pi to do the gcode processing. It’s a good way to do low stakes configuration and compiling of software so it’s something I’m capable of as an SWE and it’s fun to tinker with since the worst that’ll happen is I’ll have to reformat my printer.
Then I wanted painted stuff, so I bought some cheap store paints, they were okay so I bought some hobby paints which were excellent. It really wows people instead of getting them some cheap present for Christmas printing them a cool statue and painting it up.
Another thing is that 3D printers are still very hacker ish so for me another fun part was analyzing what upgrades were actually functional and helped me print faster/more accurately and only doing those upgrades. This includes software side like compiling your own open source firmware and integrating a general purpose CPU in a Raspberry Pi to do the gcode processing. It’s a good way to do low stakes configuration and compiling of software so it’s something I’m capable of as an SWE and it’s fun to tinker with since the worst that’ll happen is I’ll have to reformat my printer.
I mostly just dabble in a bunch of things. I started by looking at what classes are offered in my city, and started signing up for random ones. So far, I've done some leatherworking, metalsmithing, weaving, archery, bike repair, American sign language, etc. I also cook a decent amount, and am always trying new recipes. Trying to add fermenting and preserving to the list this summer. And I've recently reached out to an instructor for guitar and singing lessons.
My level of engagement is directly proportional to the pay.
This article means well but these tips are mostly platitudes. What I want to read is how people who do not care about work (i.e. people who are borderline anti-work) find work that is meaningful.
I do not believe that people aspire to not have purpose. I do believe that many people's work life is misaligned with their true purpose OR they don't know what their purpose is. I'd love to read more articles like that.
(I naturally love the work that I do and tend to invent work by solving problems that people think are worth solving. I cannot relate to people who straight-up don't want to work. Articles like the above would help me understand their mindset.)
I do not believe that people aspire to not have purpose. I do believe that many people's work life is misaligned with their true purpose OR they don't know what their purpose is. I'd love to read more articles like that.
(I naturally love the work that I do and tend to invent work by solving problems that people think are worth solving. I cannot relate to people who straight-up don't want to work. Articles like the above would help me understand their mindset.)
99% of jobs are not interesting or fulfilling.
These things are always a little funny for me, I'm just a longtime wannabe dev and the thing that makes me disengaged in my jobs is just wanting to code all the time. I guess the grass is always greener.
There was an article on HN a while ago saying that basically the secret to productivity is ... slack. In other words, excess capacity.
I used to have a tight schedule switching from tasks to learning to meetings to more tasks and more learning, 50 minutes work, 10 minutes break, relentlessly, like a robot.
Then I realized I'm not a fucking robot. Now I work 2 hours per day at most. Complete my tasks and can do this shit in a sustainable way as opposed to burning myself for what?
I'm super engaged. For two hours tops :D
I used to have a tight schedule switching from tasks to learning to meetings to more tasks and more learning, 50 minutes work, 10 minutes break, relentlessly, like a robot.
Then I realized I'm not a fucking robot. Now I work 2 hours per day at most. Complete my tasks and can do this shit in a sustainable way as opposed to burning myself for what?
I'm super engaged. For two hours tops :D
What do you do for the rest of the time? I had a job like this where it was 80% bullshit so I’d either only need a couple hours a day to get actual stuff done, or I’d work a full day and then spread out my commits and PRs throughout the day.
While in office, it was pure agony. I was bored out of my mind.
While pandemic remote, it was slightly better (never played as much PS4), but it was not freeing either because I had to answer random voice calls or attend hours long BS meetings and keep paying attention in case I was asked something. So it was like working but worse.
While in office, it was pure agony. I was bored out of my mind.
While pandemic remote, it was slightly better (never played as much PS4), but it was not freeing either because I had to answer random voice calls or attend hours long BS meetings and keep paying attention in case I was asked something. So it was like working but worse.
99% of effort is wasted. (Naval)
This is especially true with code where the cost of replication is zero.
Most company goes out of business, most programming project don’t get completed or get unused by the actual customer.
In a large company it’s even worse as you are far from the user and the chance that what you work on is unused get through the roof.
But there is a tiny chance that what you do become massively useful (http, bitcoin, etc)
This is especially true with code where the cost of replication is zero.
Most company goes out of business, most programming project don’t get completed or get unused by the actual customer.
In a large company it’s even worse as you are far from the user and the chance that what you work on is unused get through the roof.
But there is a tiny chance that what you do become massively useful (http, bitcoin, etc)
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I don't need to feel engaged at work. I feel engaged with my career though. A job is just a temporal contract I do for money. I do my best (thankfully I'm not bad at it since I love my career), but usually I don't give a damn about feeling engaged with my current employer.
This article was actually interesting.
Something that might is timing WHEN you start drinking coffee in the morning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bjxFnAIAiI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bjxFnAIAiI
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> Stay hungry, stay foolish.
If you want to feel disengaged at work, neglect your diet and make foolish choices that break people’s trust.
If you want to feel engaged at work, eat lunch with your coworkers and talk philosophy.
If you want to feel disengaged at work, neglect your diet and make foolish choices that break people’s trust.
If you want to feel engaged at work, eat lunch with your coworkers and talk philosophy.
My earlier advice continues being relevant: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25509941
That was a nice read.
I try to always work on something that’s contributing to something I care about in the world. I find that motivation is less of an issue if there’s intrinsic value to the work I’m doing.
> Imagine you are the CEO
Warning: If you take this farther than idle speculation, it is a good way to burn yourself out trying ineffective strategies to drive organizational change.
Warning: If you take this farther than idle speculation, it is a good way to burn yourself out trying ineffective strategies to drive organizational change.
Practicing your “circle of control” is one of the best things I’ve done for my mental health. I’m not going to worry about a VPs problem. That’s the whole point of not being a VP
Adding my voice to the consensus that this article is trash. As always, the blackest of falsehoods are dressed up in platitudes.
It's not your job to feel engaged. It's your employers job, your bosses. You can feel how you want to about it.
While objectively true, it's silly for employers not to exploit the psychology of the engaged employee for the employer's gain.
I disagree. It's exploitive for people in a position of power to exploit the psychology of the folks that are in their care. You use the word exploit, exploiting folks isn't good or moral, in any case. It's never ok to exploit folks.
If we say we are aligning the interests of the employer and employee that's different. If we are saying a rising tide raises all ships, we all do well when we all do well, etc. That's different. None of that is exploitive, it's inspiring. There is a difference between inspiring and aligning people in powerful ways, and exploiting them. One is ok, one is not. One leads to true long term success and prosperity, one leads to short term success but long term failure, a flash in the pan.
If we say we are aligning the interests of the employer and employee that's different. If we are saying a rising tide raises all ships, we all do well when we all do well, etc. That's different. None of that is exploitive, it's inspiring. There is a difference between inspiring and aligning people in powerful ways, and exploiting them. One is ok, one is not. One leads to true long term success and prosperity, one leads to short term success but long term failure, a flash in the pan.
I was admittedly being facetious, but my point is that those who push the "work is for working, not for having fun" line are neither doing the employers nor the employees any favours.
The other side of the coin is that what employers do to try to improve engagement is usually ineffective and often quite demeaning. What Erik Dietrich calls "carnival cash". You just can't fake the sense of producing something useful for the customers and in return getting your fair share of the proceeds.
The other side of the coin is that what employers do to try to improve engagement is usually ineffective and often quite demeaning. What Erik Dietrich calls "carnival cash". You just can't fake the sense of producing something useful for the customers and in return getting your fair share of the proceeds.
Why is someone's name humorous? The name Mr. Tu is humorous to the author of the post. I find this mildly insulting.
Because the author’s name is “Jason Tu”. That’s what they said “no relation”.
Thanks for clarifying. Didn't notice that.
let's be honest here, many IT jobs could get the work done in 20h/week. all the rest is a fucking circus.
I misread this as "How to feel enraged at work," and thought that I really didn't need any guidance.
Why did I read this as “How to feel enraged at work”? Complacency modification?
How do I find work that is worth being engaged in?
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But I, and I suspect most engineers, have the capacity to get my work done for a week in less than 40 hours. I used to spend time dicking off on my computer to fill the time. Now I don't. I go do something I want to do.
I find that I'm much more engaged in my work because I am actually using all my time to get things done. I'm not watching the clock till its time to leave for the day.
I'll probably get hate for this but its incredibly sustainable since I'm not working at a start up anymore. I suspect whenever I take on another job search I'll only consider 4 day work weeks since that's similar to what I'm doing now.