Midnight Trains – A Hotel on Rails(midnight-trains.com)
midnight-trains.com
Midnight Trains – A Hotel on Rails
https://www.midnight-trains.com/en/home
119 comments
Ah, the Ol' Chug-a-Lug. I took the midnight train from Rome to Paris almost 15 years ago on sabbatical in Europe with my wife and largish dog. We had a sleeper car. It had a bit of Old World romance but I wouldn't say it was luxurious back then. 14 hours overnight. We were train noobs and didn't know more than a smattering of Italian so were quite confused when we found our compartment. Where were the beds?!?! After an hour sitting uncomfortably on a bench seat, the conductor arrived, schooched us aside, and pulled out two fully-made bunk beds hidden in the wall. He also impatiently demanded we let him take our passports for unknown reasons (Switzerland!). Compared to the wretched discomfort and inconvenience of contemporary, public, red-eye plane travel, it was preferable, and even charming. Would recommend.
The conductor took your passports for the cross-border check, since you'd likely be soundly asleep at the time when it would happen. You can view this as a service.
That happened to me years ago when I took an overnight train from Paris to Zurich. Problem was I didn't speak French and I didn't understand why he took my passport. Because I didn't know when I would get it back (eventually I did many hours later a few minutes before my final stop), I didn't sleep at all that night because I was worried about not getting it back. Wish I had done a little more research beforehand (and spoke French!).
It also makes sure you don’t hop off before your destination — a problem that mostly does not happen with air travel.
Why is hoping off an issue? They've already paid. They have their luggage.
I've never been on a train that cared if you got off early.
For a train that crosses country borders it can be an issue, if someone hops off the train before arriving to the final station (and having their visa and luggage checked there). Apparently that is not a problem in the US or EU.
Yes, as long as the person is the actual conductor.
You know, they have:
A uniform
Special tools to check the tickets and operate locks
An ID
I don't know where you live but the idea that people would impersonate a conductor(1) to get your passports is something out of a James Bond movie.
1) they would also need to incapacitate the real conductor(s) beforehand.
A uniform
Special tools to check the tickets and operate locks
An ID
I don't know where you live but the idea that people would impersonate a conductor(1) to get your passports is something out of a James Bond movie.
1) they would also need to incapacitate the real conductor(s) beforehand.
You don't need to incapacitate real conductors - you merely need to avoid them and bringing attention to yourself until the end of your impersonation.
Have you ever been on an European train? Especially one crossing borders?
Yes, albeit not recently.
There were many times when conductors were not observing me. Has that changed?
There were many times when conductors were not observing me. Has that changed?
So now you switched from "the guy who (used to) take your ID on a cross-border night train might have been an imposter" to "when I am on a train I am not constantly under survellaince by a controller".
Your fantasy scenario conveniently omits the part where on a night train where you have booked a special compartment with beds and you are crossing borders you can put up a uniform, access the locked wagon-lits cars of the trains, get my passport, get back to the rest of the train, change back, drop off at the next station.
(Hint: the cars with bed compartments are separated by the ones with seats, you access these by showing the tickets to the same uniformed guy who would get your passports and wake you up later, and also night trains do not stop anywhere for hours - stops at the border are as short as possible, and passengers are not allowed to leave the train: for wagon lits the controller will take care of the passports, while people in the normal cars will be checked by the police)
The whole point of taking your passports at the start is to save you being wakened by the border police, so you can sleep for the whole trip.
And for the same reason, wagon lits are locked so that regular passengers cannot get there and disturb you, or try to evade police at the border.
Your fantasy scenario conveniently omits the part where on a night train where you have booked a special compartment with beds and you are crossing borders you can put up a uniform, access the locked wagon-lits cars of the trains, get my passport, get back to the rest of the train, change back, drop off at the next station.
(Hint: the cars with bed compartments are separated by the ones with seats, you access these by showing the tickets to the same uniformed guy who would get your passports and wake you up later, and also night trains do not stop anywhere for hours - stops at the border are as short as possible, and passengers are not allowed to leave the train: for wagon lits the controller will take care of the passports, while people in the normal cars will be checked by the police)
The whole point of taking your passports at the start is to save you being wakened by the border police, so you can sleep for the whole trip.
And for the same reason, wagon lits are locked so that regular passengers cannot get there and disturb you, or try to evade police at the border.
Rome to Paris is a 2h flight. No need for red eyes.
2 hourflight but you have to get to the airport early. Then you have to go from charles de gaulle to the city center. It's really much more than 2 hours. Also, in my opinion, it's a lot more stress. I'd prefer to hop on a train from city-center Rome and get dropped off in city-center Paris. Way easier. Also, trains have bar cars. Those are fun. Midnight Trains: sign me up!
For long distances, a flight is quicker. But for most of Europe, the distances aren't far enough to warrant a flight (over you add in the pre arrival time and waiting for checked luggage, and as someone else pointed out getting to and from the airports.)
I did that one year, traveled all over Europe by plane. By train is much more comfortable. And for the most part not much slower
Travelling by train is more sustainable.
When we were kids we'd go on vacation by loading the car on a train then sleeping on that very same train. I've got very fond memories of this. There were 2nd class cabins (for us) and 1st class ones (for my grandparents). My grandparents would treat us to the train's restaurant, which is like an actual restaurant and not some astronaut-like food served on your lap.
And when you arrive in the middle of nowhere, you have your own car and all your luggages. Beats flying and then taking a cab or renting a car big times.
Doesn't work across oceans though.
And when you arrive in the middle of nowhere, you have your own car and all your luggages. Beats flying and then taking a cab or renting a car big times.
Doesn't work across oceans though.
This is still very much a thing:
https://www.amtrak.com/auto-train
> This is still very much a thing: https://www.amtrak.com/auto-train
I used to commute from Bay area and Colorado on the Amtrak to visit family back in SoCal, it has it's charm: I had thought about doing a cooking tour show with a private couch/kitchen model highlighting local produce and cuisine all over the US.
but to be honest, after the 2nd time it was incredibly loathsome experience: it takes way longer than is worth if you value your time and it's incredibly prone to delays that might make your transfers not be there. I got stuck in New Mexico with 20 other people because of some issue with the bus we needed to take to get to the next train and we sat in a run-down town in Raton for 11 hours waiting for someone from Amtrak to sort out our itinerary. Suffice it to say, I'll take Frontier's cramped flight any day unless I seriously have nothing else going on for a few weeks and can enjoy the leisurely pace than trains were meant to be enjoyed as.
I used to commute from Bay area and Colorado on the Amtrak to visit family back in SoCal, it has it's charm: I had thought about doing a cooking tour show with a private couch/kitchen model highlighting local produce and cuisine all over the US.
but to be honest, after the 2nd time it was incredibly loathsome experience: it takes way longer than is worth if you value your time and it's incredibly prone to delays that might make your transfers not be there. I got stuck in New Mexico with 20 other people because of some issue with the bus we needed to take to get to the next train and we sat in a run-down town in Raton for 11 hours waiting for someone from Amtrak to sort out our itinerary. Suffice it to say, I'll take Frontier's cramped flight any day unless I seriously have nothing else going on for a few weeks and can enjoy the leisurely pace than trains were meant to be enjoyed as.
I'm surprised that's economical. We did a three day sleeper train (Toronto to Saskatoon) about ten years ago and it was already enormously expensive, like 4 times the cost of flying. Presumably transporting a car is relatively simple compared to actual passengers since it just sits there and doesn't need a seat or meals or a washroom, or its bed turned down, or whatever else. But still, it's adding logistical complexity at both ends.
There was a great TV show about the line that runs up the west coast of India from Kerala to Mumbai. The line that the British didn't build due to the terrain was built by the locals privately and despite the poverty of many people in India, the one profit making service was the train that took the small trucks from the south of India up to Mumbai. Quicker and cheaper for the lorry drivers and profitable for the railway.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konkan_Railway
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konkan_Railway
From what I remember the auto train is the only profitable long-distance train Amtrak runs (it generates more in fares than it costs to run).
I'd love to see more of those types of options, personally.
I'd love to see more of those types of options, personally.
I've got family who has taken this route before. They wanted to be in the Northeast for a few weeks, and it made a ton of sense logistically and economically to load up the car, park it on a train, and ride north for the 18 hour trip. For most travel, it may be a toss up, but for a longer stay where you need transport on the other side and want to bring more than a single suitcase, it is a really good option.
Oh I can definitely see the appeal of it, particularly relative to the fly + rent a car on the other end option. I just know long haul passenger train travel in Canada is fabulously expensive, infrequent, and unreliable, so I was pleased to see discussion of an option like this that has been made to work.
Looked just now, and it was around $400 roundtrip for the train seat and another $465 for the car. So, yeah its definitely more expensive than driving, even with the current record high gas prices.
The only people I met in Miami who actually used or had a use for such trains were your typical North-East/Miami winter birds. And it makes complete sense that this particular line is profitable for Amtrak.
Only if you're traveling between Washington, DC and Orlando.
Reading comments about this on "train Twitter" most people who are familiar with the industry seem very skeptical about how they want to source their own rolling stock in such a short amount of time.
Especially when you see how long it takes ÖBB and other train companies to get receive their trains they announced years ago.
Curious to see how this will work out. More night train and night train competition is always good and healthy.
Especially when you see how long it takes ÖBB and other train companies to get receive their trains they announced years ago.
Curious to see how this will work out. More night train and night train competition is always good and healthy.
Maybe the rolling stock itself won't be new - maybe they plan to rebuild old carriages? A few years ago, they could have bought DB's Talgo night trains (probably at bargain price), but now they were apparently scrapped because they didn't manage to find a buyer for several years (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talgo_(Deutsche_Bahn,_1994%E2%... - German)...
> Especially when you see how long it takes ÖBB and other train companies to get receive their trains they announced years ago
It doesn't help when major OEBB tenders end up in court due to someone allegedly screwing up a digital signature:
https://www.railjournal.com/fleet/obb-set-to-retender-withdr...
It doesn't help when major OEBB tenders end up in court due to someone allegedly screwing up a digital signature:
https://www.railjournal.com/fleet/obb-set-to-retender-withdr...
I suppose you're referring to ÖBB's Nightjet - didn't they buy the old sleeper cars from DB?
They took over the DB lines, incidentally bringing back sleeper trains from/to the Netherlands after a short absence, and I think rolling stock as well. ÖBB is certainly delivering on its promise. We took the sleeper train from Arnhem to Innsbruck and back just this month for a trip to the North of Italy (which is just two hours on the EuroCity from Innsbruck). The rolling stock is ageing a bit, but it's clean and has great service.
I was also pleasantly surprised by the fast, no-fuss refund of 25% when our return trip was delayed for 65 minutes. After alighting, on the next train, I arranged for the €80 to be refunded in just five minutes of entering the relevant details through their chat bot.
I was also pleasantly surprised by the fast, no-fuss refund of 25% when our return trip was delayed for 65 minutes. After alighting, on the next train, I arranged for the €80 to be refunded in just five minutes of entering the relevant details through their chat bot.
Its a fun adventure. Feels like school trip with the bunk beds.
Referring to these new ones that are not out yet as far as I know: https://www.nightjet.com/en/komfortkategorien/nightjet-neue-...
I'm unsure if these are refurbished old cars or completely new ones though.
I'm unsure if these are refurbished old cars or completely new ones though.
Ah nice! The current ones are ok, but you can tell they’re old.
Cool website. So you want me to subscribe to a news letter so I can book a train? Very confused.
Came to these comments to figure it out. The following important bit should be more obvious.
> In 2024 we will launch the first line from our Paris hub. This will lay the foundation for our ambitious plan to create a network of more than 10 destinations, each between 800 and 1,500 km from Paris.
Came to these comments to figure it out. The following important bit should be more obvious.
> In 2024 we will launch the first line from our Paris hub. This will lay the foundation for our ambitious plan to create a network of more than 10 destinations, each between 800 and 1,500 km from Paris.
Yeah, the only part actually relevant to travellers is hidden away under a website which hacks out the scroll bar and is really low on actual information. It is exactly that paragraph which matters.
That was the only thing I cared about too - where does it go from and to!
It's a super idée. Très luxe. I hope they provide an appropriate murder on each journey, to be solved by a famous Belgian detective.
You don’t need this to take the real thing: https://www.belmond.com/trains/europe/venice-simplon-orient-...
But it’s potentially not quite as luxe as you’re imagining; for example, nearly all of the carriages are original 20s stock which means no showers.
But it’s potentially not quite as luxe as you’re imagining; for example, nearly all of the carriages are original 20s stock which means no showers.
However, they certainly like to keep up appearances:
> What do I wear on the Venice Simplon-Orient-Express train?
You can never be overdressed on the Venice Simplon-Orient-Express train! For dinner, we ask for formal evening attire and many guests like to don black tie and wear their most glamorous finery for the occasion. Smart daywear is appropriate during the day. At lunch, for example, a jacket/tie or equivalent is suitable. Jeans are not acceptable at any time.
Mustaches, monocles and pocket watches are probably desirable too, although I'm not sure you would get a rebate if you have one...
> What do I wear on the Venice Simplon-Orient-Express train?
You can never be overdressed on the Venice Simplon-Orient-Express train! For dinner, we ask for formal evening attire and many guests like to don black tie and wear their most glamorous finery for the occasion. Smart daywear is appropriate during the day. At lunch, for example, a jacket/tie or equivalent is suitable. Jeans are not acceptable at any time.
Mustaches, monocles and pocket watches are probably desirable too, although I'm not sure you would get a rebate if you have one...
London to Venice is only one night on the train. Although a lot of Americans would seem to disagree, there is really no need to shower every single day...
The carriages are more of an old-world luxury experience: the cabin that my spouse and I stayed in had incredibly intricate, hand-inlayed wood and lacquer decoration, for example. If you're expecting a shower and a high-def LCD television etc. then no, that is not what you're getting.
The service, which is the item that really is the distinguishing factor in luxury travel, was superior. The one part that was a let-down on the journey is that you have to switch to a coach (admittedly a nice one) for the actual crossing of the English Channel via the tunnel.
The carriages are more of an old-world luxury experience: the cabin that my spouse and I stayed in had incredibly intricate, hand-inlayed wood and lacquer decoration, for example. If you're expecting a shower and a high-def LCD television etc. then no, that is not what you're getting.
The service, which is the item that really is the distinguishing factor in luxury travel, was superior. The one part that was a let-down on the journey is that you have to switch to a coach (admittedly a nice one) for the actual crossing of the English Channel via the tunnel.
I'm surprised they can find enough people willing to pay 3000 gbp per night for that to stay in business.
The vast majority of the people that we met on the train were retirement-age people from the working- or middle-classes; and the journey was the centerpiece of a special celebration for them. It's very different from the typical international business/first-class flight crowd, for example.
> no showers
Bathtubs?
Bathtubs?
wow, truly exorbitant
The price is not know yet, but this Paris-Rome line look like a luxury train, a bit like the Riviera Express line (Nice-Moscow), the Paris-Moscou Express (both on hold since 2020) or the classic Venise-Simplon-Orient-Express. None of them are cheap choices for a night train.
That said, the actual choice for Paris-Rome by train is to take the Paris-Milan TGV trains with the french SNCF or the italian Trainitalia, and then the Milan-Rome (with Trainitalia or NTV). All in all is a 20h travel for around 200-300€ (for tomorrow), probably way cheaper than this 2024 train, and around the same than most plane tickets (but you can find "cheaper" planes...).
In the past, there was a night train between Paris and Milan by Thello (a Trainitalia subsidiary), but is't also closed since 2020.
That said, the actual choice for Paris-Rome by train is to take the Paris-Milan TGV trains with the french SNCF or the italian Trainitalia, and then the Milan-Rome (with Trainitalia or NTV). All in all is a 20h travel for around 200-300€ (for tomorrow), probably way cheaper than this 2024 train, and around the same than most plane tickets (but you can find "cheaper" planes...).
In the past, there was a night train between Paris and Milan by Thello (a Trainitalia subsidiary), but is't also closed since 2020.
> there was a night train between Paris and Milan by Thello
The Austrian train company OEBB operate night trains under their NightJet brand[0], according to their route map[1] both Paris and Milan are served, although it doesn't look like that's direct, presumably you have to change (in Austria somewhere?)
[0] https://www.nightjet.com/ [1] https://www.nightjet.com/en/dam/jcr:6a8041cb-0131-4ad3-84fd-...
The Austrian train company OEBB operate night trains under their NightJet brand[0], according to their route map[1] both Paris and Milan are served, although it doesn't look like that's direct, presumably you have to change (in Austria somewhere?)
[0] https://www.nightjet.com/ [1] https://www.nightjet.com/en/dam/jcr:6a8041cb-0131-4ad3-84fd-...
Fairly sure that Midnight Trains are specifically going after a different market than the luxury super-long-haul market. A lot of their marketing blurb really focuses on them as an alternative to short-haul (i.e. intra-european) flights.
> In 2024 we will launch the first line...
So this is a fancy website to collect emails for a service that is not even intended to launch for a couple years. I'm feeling like marketing folks these days really believe, "Market it, and they will come." But it would really help to actually have a product to sell.
So this is a fancy website to collect emails for a service that is not even intended to launch for a couple years. I'm feeling like marketing folks these days really believe, "Market it, and they will come." But it would really help to actually have a product to sell.
The Edinburgh route seems quite ambitious, due to the apparently near-insurmountable challenges of meeting channel tunnel safety and regulatory requirements.
Deutsch Bahn tried for years to introduce a route to London through the tunnel, but even they couldn't make it happen and gave up in the end. Eurostar's monopoly is well entrenched!
And there is, of course, a London to Edinburgh (and on to Aberdeen, etc) sleeper service already: https://www.sleeper.scot
Deutsch Bahn tried for years to introduce a route to London through the tunnel, but even they couldn't make it happen and gave up in the end. Eurostar's monopoly is well entrenched!
And there is, of course, a London to Edinburgh (and on to Aberdeen, etc) sleeper service already: https://www.sleeper.scot
The Orient Express (Venice Simplon-Orient Express) can "start" in London, but the restored antique train has never run in the channel tunnel. I've seen it done differently in most of the YouTube-hosted videos I've seen. The current method uses Eurostar to get to France and transfer to the antique train. Previous methods involved transfers on the British side from a fancy "Pullman" train.
What were the hard saefty challenges? Fire proof carriages maybe?
There's some info here: https://railinsider.co.uk/2021/02/26/db-views-cross-channel-...
One of the issues is that Eurotunnel requires a minimum train length, so that if a train is ever stopped in the tunnel, there will always be an emergency exit accessible without having to walk down the track. DB planned to meet the minimum length by joining two units together, but the problem is that there was no way for passengers to move between the front and rear units.
One of the issues is that Eurotunnel requires a minimum train length, so that if a train is ever stopped in the tunnel, there will always be an emergency exit accessible without having to walk down the track. DB planned to meet the minimum length by joining two units together, but the problem is that there was no way for passengers to move between the front and rear units.
Sleeper trains are making a come back. There are more initiatives being launched. European Sleeper is starting with Brussels/Rotterdam/Amsterdam – Berlin/Dresden/Prague soon:
https://www.europeansleeper.eu/english/
https://www.europeansleeper.eu/english/
Snälltåget started a Berlin / Malmo / Stockholm route last year too
https://www.snalltaget.se/en
https://www.snalltaget.se/en
That’s been going for a while now (it goes on to Åre as well). What I’d really like is the proposed Malmö – Brussels night train, but no bidders approached SJ for that one.
Okay I just checked the price for a day in August, for my family it would cost north of 500 eur for 17 hour trip. Flying seems a better option on all counts.
Honestly I'm a little skeptical that it will work out.
They're building custom train cars ($$$) that will generally serve people who are visitors to Paris (otherwise why would you pay extra for a hotel night on a train from a city that you live in, and not fly discount airlines instead?).
The trains will be in operation only 50% duty cycle (the train arrives in the morning, so I suppose it takes the return journey that evening and not immediate turnaround), since the outbound was 13 hours.
I'm guessing the tickets will be quite premium priced to make it profitable.
They're building custom train cars ($$$) that will generally serve people who are visitors to Paris (otherwise why would you pay extra for a hotel night on a train from a city that you live in, and not fly discount airlines instead?).
The trains will be in operation only 50% duty cycle (the train arrives in the morning, so I suppose it takes the return journey that evening and not immediate turnaround), since the outbound was 13 hours.
I'm guessing the tickets will be quite premium priced to make it profitable.
In terms of business when you can buy a 30 euro easy jet ticket or a 200 euro train ticket, not a lot of people are going to be able to afford the train. In many parts of Europe, trains are not price competitive with air connections. And also a lot slower.
Here in Germany, there are a lot of domestic flights under 1 hour that connect places that would be 4-6 hours away by train. Even with the inconvenience of being treated like cattle, having to travel for an hour to get to and from the airport on both ends, etc. it's still a net gain. And often it's cheaper too. And it's the difference between needing a hotel or being able to travel back and forth on a single day. Early morning and evening flights are usually packed.
Trains should be dirt cheap but they aren't. A round trip to my parents with a 4.5 hour train journey costs me around 110 Euros every time I do it. The fuel expenses for the same journey by car are about the same.
Reason: Deutsche Bahn is a state protected monopoly that has little to no real competition and is run in a super inefficient way. So companies that have to burn enormous amounts of kerosene are able to compete on price. That's insane. There are buses competing with train journeys in Germany charging 30-40% of the train ticket price. Sometimes less. Do buses have better fuel economy than trains? Of course they don't.
So, yes, these luxury trains will be drop in the ocean in terms of actually cutting down on that. I doubt they will be profitable at all. At those prices, filling the trains will be a challenge. Though there is a market for people with a conscious and a wallet that want to go places but feel bad about flying there.
Here in Germany, there are a lot of domestic flights under 1 hour that connect places that would be 4-6 hours away by train. Even with the inconvenience of being treated like cattle, having to travel for an hour to get to and from the airport on both ends, etc. it's still a net gain. And often it's cheaper too. And it's the difference between needing a hotel or being able to travel back and forth on a single day. Early morning and evening flights are usually packed.
Trains should be dirt cheap but they aren't. A round trip to my parents with a 4.5 hour train journey costs me around 110 Euros every time I do it. The fuel expenses for the same journey by car are about the same.
Reason: Deutsche Bahn is a state protected monopoly that has little to no real competition and is run in a super inefficient way. So companies that have to burn enormous amounts of kerosene are able to compete on price. That's insane. There are buses competing with train journeys in Germany charging 30-40% of the train ticket price. Sometimes less. Do buses have better fuel economy than trains? Of course they don't.
So, yes, these luxury trains will be drop in the ocean in terms of actually cutting down on that. I doubt they will be profitable at all. At those prices, filling the trains will be a challenge. Though there is a market for people with a conscious and a wallet that want to go places but feel bad about flying there.
There was once a guy who traveled from somewhere in southern England to London by way of Berlin because that was cheaper than simply taking the direct train to London.
It's utterly ridiculous how much air travel is subsidized and train travel is not. Another problem is indeed that trains can't really compete with each other; even privatised, they still end up with local monopolies on specific lines, or else it would become chaos. I suppose there's some competition between high-speed rail and short flights, and sometimes, high-speed train tickets (to France at least) can get surprisingly cheap if you buy them at the right moment, but the competition remains unfair because of all the subsidies air travel gets.
Maybe EU governments should subsidise trains to the point travel becomes free. I'm sure that would cut down on traffic jams on roads too.
It's utterly ridiculous how much air travel is subsidized and train travel is not. Another problem is indeed that trains can't really compete with each other; even privatised, they still end up with local monopolies on specific lines, or else it would become chaos. I suppose there's some competition between high-speed rail and short flights, and sometimes, high-speed train tickets (to France at least) can get surprisingly cheap if you buy them at the right moment, but the competition remains unfair because of all the subsidies air travel gets.
Maybe EU governments should subsidise trains to the point travel becomes free. I'm sure that would cut down on traffic jams on roads too.
It isn't just the air travel is subsidized (it is, but not by enough to explain the cost), it is inherently cheaper to maintain an airport on either and, an airplane. While both of those costs are more expensive than a train station and train maintenance, track maintenance will kill you.
Tracks still is worth it, but only if you use the track a lot.
Tracks still is worth it, but only if you use the track a lot.
The infrastructure that is used by the planes (air) is way cheaper than the one used by the trains (rail). Air maintenance costs are about zero. Rails maintenance is far from it.
The nature is subsidizing air travel much more than any government ever could.
The nature is subsidizing air travel much more than any government ever could.
Might be like that way in Germany, but in mainland France and Spain domestic flights are almost unheard of as the train is nearly always a better option and price is the same if you book in advance as you would for a plane ticket.
For short, in-county trips the train station is normally more convenient than an airport, and there is less spent in security. Trains tend to run a lot more often, while planes are often only a few times per day. Thus a train is the same price, about as fast, and a lot more convenient.
France and Spain have both invested in High Speed rail. Germany is behind there, the lack of speed on their train network. For humans time is a very important consideration.
France and Spain have both invested in High Speed rail. Germany is behind there, the lack of speed on their train network. For humans time is a very important consideration.
France has one major problem in that there are no transversal lines in the South (Bordeaux->Toulouse->Marseille or Bordeaux->Lyon) which makes a lot of the travelling in that direction incredibly inconvenient, to the point plane is the better means of transportation.
> otherwise why would you pay extra for a hotel night on a train from a city that you live in
Because if you stayed at home, you have to wake up early and deal with the airport to fly on the airline. This way, you can take your time, make use of the journey for some work or relaxation and arrive fresh in the morning.
Because if you stayed at home, you have to wake up early and deal with the airport to fly on the airline. This way, you can take your time, make use of the journey for some work or relaxation and arrive fresh in the morning.
So take up your personal time to travel rather than the company's during the day?
The point is that it's a more efficient way to travel. Both in time (you travel in your sleep), and energy/pollution. And it's more comfortable (or in this case luxurious) than the cattle-drive experience of air travel.
It is more expensive, though. But that's also because air travel gets lots of subsidies and doesn't pay for externalities. That should change.
It is more expensive, though. But that's also because air travel gets lots of subsidies and doesn't pay for externalities. That should change.
It's not necessarily more expensive either. Instead of arriving in the afternoon, you have the whole day ahead of you, and you mostly spent down time for travel. To get the same amount of waking hours in a trip where you fly you would need an extra night in the accommodation of choice at the travel destination. That's €50 – €100 extra. And of course the costs of getting from the airport to a place you actually want to spend time, and the costs of your time in terms of leave taken from work!
For many sleeper trains already are cost effective. And as soon as governments finally give in and stop subsidising air travel it will only become more attractive.
And every train fan knows that there is one thing that can't be beat: get off the train in the early morning, take a few steps, and you're standing in front of the station and you're done. You can go visit a museum or do some other leisurely thing. No security, no delays in getting your luggage, not being stuck in airport getting ready for the train/taxi/bus to some place humans actually want to be.
For many sleeper trains already are cost effective. And as soon as governments finally give in and stop subsidising air travel it will only become more attractive.
And every train fan knows that there is one thing that can't be beat: get off the train in the early morning, take a few steps, and you're standing in front of the station and you're done. You can go visit a museum or do some other leisurely thing. No security, no delays in getting your luggage, not being stuck in airport getting ready for the train/taxi/bus to some place humans actually want to be.
Indeed, when comparing trains to airplanes, the time necessary to get from the city to the airport and the security checks & boarding time are generally forgotten (repeat at arrival). It's generally around 1 to 3 hours for a single flight.
So, for a short flight, using the train may take the same time than using the plane (particularly true in Europe with the speed trains).
For example, Paris-Frankfurt, next wednesday with Deutsche Bahn ICE 9553 it's 4 hours for 56€ from city center to city center (cheapest price for the week, it can go up to 350€). By plane, with Air-France it's 1h20 from airport (CDG) to airport (FRA) for 127€ the same day. From Paris center to CDG airport, it's around 30 mins, and for Frankfurt airport to Frankfurt center it's 40 minutes. Both ride by local trains (for 5~10€ each). All in all around 2h30 from city-center to city-center, but then you need to not forget the necessary time for security check & boarding. Let's say 1h30 only because you have no luggage... If you have a luggage add 40 minutes more.
All in all, for this ride, the time is around the same, but the stress is not...
So, for a short flight, using the train may take the same time than using the plane (particularly true in Europe with the speed trains).
For example, Paris-Frankfurt, next wednesday with Deutsche Bahn ICE 9553 it's 4 hours for 56€ from city center to city center (cheapest price for the week, it can go up to 350€). By plane, with Air-France it's 1h20 from airport (CDG) to airport (FRA) for 127€ the same day. From Paris center to CDG airport, it's around 30 mins, and for Frankfurt airport to Frankfurt center it's 40 minutes. Both ride by local trains (for 5~10€ each). All in all around 2h30 from city-center to city-center, but then you need to not forget the necessary time for security check & boarding. Let's say 1h30 only because you have no luggage... If you have a luggage add 40 minutes more.
All in all, for this ride, the time is around the same, but the stress is not...
9am meeting - would you a) fly the day before and stay in a hotel? or b) travel be train overnight?
I'd take the train.
I'd take the train.
I'd take the train.
Unless you actually want make sure you're on time for the meeting. Unless you are in Switzerland or Japan, if the train is supposed to arrive at 8am, the chance you'll make your 9am meeting on time is a coin toss at best, even if it's held right next to the train station.
Also the hotel is guaranteed to have a much more comfortable bed, a shower and a better breakfast.
Unless you actually want make sure you're on time for the meeting. Unless you are in Switzerland or Japan, if the train is supposed to arrive at 8am, the chance you'll make your 9am meeting on time is a coin toss at best, even if it's held right next to the train station.
Also the hotel is guaranteed to have a much more comfortable bed, a shower and a better breakfast.
I'm also interested in their train designs, the planned capsule trains from the austrian railways are quite interesting capacity wise (https://www.railtech.com/rolling-stock/2019/12/04/obb-will-i...), the default 4 bed compartment configuration but without sharing the compartment with 4 strangers. Let's see their pricing if they start rolling the stock this year.
To be honest, I like the idea. I have used night trains in Europe before and they are a great way to travel and save a day when on holiday.
The one thing they really need. To get right is the bed needs cannot be perpendicular to the direction of motion. That sucks.
The one thing they really need. To get right is the bed needs cannot be perpendicular to the direction of motion. That sucks.
I’ve slept on the aligned bunks and I agree, the perpendicular berths are a relic of the compartment era. Also a better packing efficiency, e.g. the ones in Thailand:
https://gotothailand.com/thai-sleeper-trains/
https://gotothailand.com/thai-sleeper-trains/
The duty cycle is indeed a problem. When I used to work for Intercity West Coast back in the day, the sleeper coaches got serviced and then sat in the yard for the whole day since they can't be used for much during the day.
So what's new here? Slow-ish night trains are very common in Russia. I've used them more times than I care to count. They're a good fit for traveling between St Petersburg and Moscow. Sure, even the most luxurious class РЖД offers doesn't come close to this, but other than that...
What's new? Nothing - except that night trains have been slowly dying out in Western Europe (the German railways DB completely cancelled their own night/car trains a few years ago and gave up the car loading facilities - but DB is known for its willingness to prioritize cost savings over maintaining or expanding its network), and now they are seeing a resurgence...
It's a bit early to tell if it's a resurgence, so far everything is in the planning phase. Travelling by train in extra comfort sounds nice, but that is only if you don't have frequent stops and you don't have to switch trains in the middle of the night. Solutions like this one look like they'll be very expensive. It would be interesting to put the whole cabin on movable parts and use control theory to keep the cabin steady at all times. To remove the repetitive train track sounds for extra luxury. I hope they succeed.
Actually the Talgo trainsets I mentioned in another comment are apparently very quiet (only one axle per car) and steady running (their special setup counteracts the tendency of conventional carriages to swing from side to side https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunting_oscillation) - so Deutsche Bahn was on to something when they ordered these for use as night trains. Unfortunately I never got to travel with one while they were still in use.
Most train tracks in Western Europe are continuously welded nowadays (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_track#Continuous_welde...), so no "repetitive train track sounds", except at points/switches.
Most train tracks in Western Europe are continuously welded nowadays (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_track#Continuous_welde...), so no "repetitive train track sounds", except at points/switches.
> So what's new here? ... even the most luxurious class РЖД offers doesn't come close to this
That's the whole point.
That's the whole point.
In the west, the economics are stacked against trains and usually require government subsidy to run, sleeper trains are some of the most expensive since they use lots of staff and carriages that are not much use for anything else.
This company is trying the luxury angle so that people would pay more than they might for a "normal" train and therefore the business might be viable.
Lots of people do use charters and luxury trains so it might not be crazy but the difficult part will be not running too many services to cost money but not too few that they are not useful for the traveller.
This company is trying the luxury angle so that people would pay more than they might for a "normal" train and therefore the business might be viable.
Lots of people do use charters and luxury trains so it might not be crazy but the difficult part will be not running too many services to cost money but not too few that they are not useful for the traveller.
...and they're the only viable option for getting to parts of Russian south, now that airplanes don't go there due to its proximity to the war theater.
I used night trains in Poland back when that was the option I could afford to travel. God, never again. Drunken people arguing, folks smoking cigarettes, thieves and bedbugs are only some of the attractions I've had to endure. I remember one time the ticket lady outright told me "i recommend not to fall asleep sir, they're stealing luggage here".
How long ago was that?
Like 10 years ago, but I still see the same exact trains going through the same routes, so it's hard to imagine much has changed since then. Maybe they hired some security, but I doubt the bedbugs would care.
Cool, together with the planned offerings of the austrian railway it seems the Europe wide night lines will finally be reality... I really hope they will also finally tackle the complicated mess of buying cross boarder train tickets within the EU... vienna -> paris, a day in paris, and then paris -> porto seems nice :)
Through ticketing is still an unsolved issue. This is a shame.
https://europa.eu/year-of-rail/news/new-action-plan-boosting...
https://europa.eu/year-of-rail/news/new-action-plan-boosting...
It's getting better each year though. On a trip to Italy I bought NightJet and EuroCity tickets via ÖBB's website, and a Frecciargento ticket via Trenitalia's website. All from the comfort of my Dutch home. Tickets for local trains can be trivially bought at terminals which speak a host of languages these days at most Italian stations.
At such long distances I prefer to plan a day or so at intermediate points (like Paris in your example) to prevent delays from cascading into the whole trip. So you would have separate tickets anyway.
I realise someone who speaks only Dutch and a bit of English may be daunted by that, but there are local train travel agents who can do it for you for a modest fee.
At such long distances I prefer to plan a day or so at intermediate points (like Paris in your example) to prevent delays from cascading into the whole trip. So you would have separate tickets anyway.
I realise someone who speaks only Dutch and a bit of English may be daunted by that, but there are local train travel agents who can do it for you for a modest fee.
I took the "4 day" Toronto to Vancouver train around Christmas time 2019.
It was eventful, they had a bad batch of wheel bearings, which got us stuck at Sudbury ON for a day.
But despite that, it was a fun, low stress experience. Especially compared to air travel.
I look forward to the day that I could take the Vancouver to Toronto train.
Side note, I did take the Stockholm to Malmo to Copenhagen night train, and I took the Bergen to Oslo night train. If there's even a bed, I would not hesitate doing that again on another vacation. If you're going to sleep in a hotel, you might as well be moving.
But despite that, it was a fun, low stress experience. Especially compared to air travel.
I look forward to the day that I could take the Vancouver to Toronto train.
Side note, I did take the Stockholm to Malmo to Copenhagen night train, and I took the Bergen to Oslo night train. If there's even a bed, I would not hesitate doing that again on another vacation. If you're going to sleep in a hotel, you might as well be moving.
Sounds like a new Orient Express, I wish them all the best. I know several overnight train connections, and I usually use them when they're available. It's nice when you're going on vacation, bit of an experience in itself, and you save a night in the hotel. But it can be a bit tricky actually getting to sleep, I once used it to go to a conference and ended up being very tired on the first day. And those are nowhere near as luxurious as on those pictures, much more like regular trains cabins with seats that can be converted to beds.
I once travelled with my now-wife through a few former Soviet bloc countries via overnight trains in the early naughties. We travelled through Czech, Bulgaria, Poland, Slovenia to name a few.
We hired the best "couche" room we could on the train. Normally equipped with foods, a bottle of spirits and some music.
During our travels we loved these trips. They were no frills though - Soviet era train services are very basic.
But we saved a nights accommodation every trip doing this and had great fun en route.
We hired the best "couche" room we could on the train. Normally equipped with foods, a bottle of spirits and some music.
During our travels we loved these trips. They were no frills though - Soviet era train services are very basic.
But we saved a nights accommodation every trip doing this and had great fun en route.
I rode the overnight train from St Petersburg to Moscow back around 1992; there were many vendors on the train who were extremely happy to sell a bottle of vodka or shampanskoye to anyone who neglected to provision themselves.
It was a bunk bed for 2 and a sink, btw. Not much else.
I love trains but unfortunately sleeper trains don't work for a light/nervous sleeper like me. Maybe if I used one regularly I could get used to it. But the couple of times I used one I didn't sleep much. I've always been envious of heavy sleepers.
Same here. I took one in Japan a month or two ago and the somewhat irregular shaking kept setting off my earthquake senses and I'd wake up with a shot of adrenaline. It was really fun though, until I had to try to fall asleep!
Beautiful train.
Tangentially, in the US south, the midnight train was once a metaphor for salvation from bondage or prison, perhaps via death, as immortalized in these lyrics by blues legend Leadbelly:
"Let the Midnight Special shine an ever-lovin' light on me"
Tangentially, in the US south, the midnight train was once a metaphor for salvation from bondage or prison, perhaps via death, as immortalized in these lyrics by blues legend Leadbelly:
"Let the Midnight Special shine an ever-lovin' light on me"
Like many of you, I had to search to figure out how to book. Checked their social media and they’re lionising Pullman who, yeah sure, revolutionised luxury train travel but who was also an exceedingly terrible human.
How does it compare on cost, though?? One of the great things about flying in Europe is the price, usually less than £50 a ticket, sometimes low as £5, it’s usually cheaper to fly than take Eurostar.
That's the thing of course. National airlines get bail out after bail out, pay zero taxes on fuel, have national and regional governments finance most of their on-ground infrastructure (airports), have their vehicle development also largely financed through governments, while railways need to keep their own pants up in every way. There is no fair competition of any kind, and I wish it was so!
I have taken a semi significant amount of overnight trains in the USA. Amtrak is not a great experience. I'd love to take trains around the world but my wife isnt interested at all.
There’s little business case these days but I wish train operators would build more (or drastically simplify) car-carrying motorail trains.
There are still a few in Europe. Seat61 (predictably) has a guide: https://www.seat61.com/motorail-trains.htm
Sadly, many countries have moved to multiple unit trains to avoid wasted time shunting.
Motorail in the UK used to be a few carriages tagged on the back of (usually) a sleeper train. There were all kinds of issues with the time it takes to load and unload safely at either end and the option to unload en-route is largely not there.
In the UK, a lot of space beside stations was also sold off so not all stations could support this any more (I guess you could build additional stops)
I think like moving freight by train, if there was a minimum level of demand, it would be worth the investment but until you invest, you don't really know what the demand is. In the UK, probably only the longest journies would be popular for taking cars by trains since most people would rather then drive for 4-5 hours than have the hassle and expense of the train journey.
Motorail in the UK used to be a few carriages tagged on the back of (usually) a sleeper train. There were all kinds of issues with the time it takes to load and unload safely at either end and the option to unload en-route is largely not there.
In the UK, a lot of space beside stations was also sold off so not all stations could support this any more (I guess you could build additional stops)
I think like moving freight by train, if there was a minimum level of demand, it would be worth the investment but until you invest, you don't really know what the demand is. In the UK, probably only the longest journies would be popular for taking cars by trains since most people would rather then drive for 4-5 hours than have the hassle and expense of the train journey.
I wonder how much really going by train is sustainable compared to flying when you count in all the costs of maintenance of the rails, making tunnels, burden on surrounding environment etc whereas with flying this is virtually non-existent.
Surely flying is still worst but it seems more scalable; once we get electric planes then all of a sudden planes will be more sustainable maybe?
Surely flying is still worst but it seems more scalable; once we get electric planes then all of a sudden planes will be more sustainable maybe?
IIRC in terms of cost, a cargo ship costs $0.01 per kg per km, a train costs $0.03 per kg per km, and an airplane costs $0.60 per kg per km. Assuming things which are environmental burdens are even a little bit correlated with costs, its not even a competition.
“Once we get electric planes” is such a handwavy statement. We are so far off getting anything close to an electric commercial passenger plane.
The environmental cost Of train infrastructure is also amortised over the lifetime of the infrastructure.
There are tunnels and bridges in the UK built in the 1800s which are still transporting trains in it today.
The environmental cost Of train infrastructure is also amortised over the lifetime of the infrastructure.
There are tunnels and bridges in the UK built in the 1800s which are still transporting trains in it today.
EDIT: ok, found it (under "our story"):
> In 2024 we will launch the first line from our Paris hub. This will lay the foundation for our ambitious plan to create a network of more than 10 destinations, each between 800 and 1,500 km from Paris.