Chesa Boudin Recalled by San Francisco Voters(wsj.com)
wsj.com
Chesa Boudin Recalled by San Francisco Voters
https://www.wsj.com/articles/san-francisco-district-attorney-chesa-boudin-faces-recall-election-11654603200
100 comments
There is actually a very real concept that known penalties deters crime. If you stop any significant punishment, criminals are aware, emboldened, and crime increases. Milwaukee is recently reeling in thousands of reckless car thefts, and this is what the perps say themselves:
"I know people who have got 200 car thefts, 300 car thefts."
Interviewer: "Have you thought about how you would do that time?"
"Shit, you only get 3 weeks. It's a misdemeanor!"
Interviewer: "You only do 3 weeks for stealing a car?"
"Hell ya, it's a misdemeanor."
https://youtu.be/fbTrLyqL_nw?t=429
"I know people who have got 200 car thefts, 300 car thefts."
Interviewer: "Have you thought about how you would do that time?"
"Shit, you only get 3 weeks. It's a misdemeanor!"
Interviewer: "You only do 3 weeks for stealing a car?"
"Hell ya, it's a misdemeanor."
https://youtu.be/fbTrLyqL_nw?t=429
What is "the root of most crime"? What should society do with criminals instead?
I suppose it's better to say "roots," plural. Nobody knows what lies at the roots of crime for _certain_, but there has been a lot of research into the topic. Several things seem to be strongly correlated with increased risk for criminal behavior, but we can't draw direct causality relationships quite yet. The Wikipedia article on it is informative, and viewpoint-neutral: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_correlations_of_cr...
One of the more interesting possible roots of criminal behavior is lead exposure as a child. It's not entirely clear, of course (socioeconomic status is a confounding factor that is hard to eliminate), but there seems to at least be some strong correlation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead–crime_hypothesis
My point isn't that we should be redirecting more resources to lead removal than to recalling a prosecutor (even though I _do_ think lead removal is a wise use of resources). My point is that deterrence and punishment is "cleaning up after the fact," rather than trying to address problems at their source.
The question "what should society do with criminals" implies a belief that criminality _must_ exist in a society. Perhaps to some degree, it is true. But it seems as though redirecting our efforts to prevent criminality in the first place by addressing the underlying root causes would ultimately be a far better use of our resources, and far more effective.
One of the more interesting possible roots of criminal behavior is lead exposure as a child. It's not entirely clear, of course (socioeconomic status is a confounding factor that is hard to eliminate), but there seems to at least be some strong correlation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead–crime_hypothesis
My point isn't that we should be redirecting more resources to lead removal than to recalling a prosecutor (even though I _do_ think lead removal is a wise use of resources). My point is that deterrence and punishment is "cleaning up after the fact," rather than trying to address problems at their source.
The question "what should society do with criminals" implies a belief that criminality _must_ exist in a society. Perhaps to some degree, it is true. But it seems as though redirecting our efforts to prevent criminality in the first place by addressing the underlying root causes would ultimately be a far better use of our resources, and far more effective.
Yes, but what should society do with the criminals we already have? Even the most forgiving people can only stomach so much theft, vandalism, rape, murder, etc, before they snap.
Archived version: https://archive.ph/dmlE8
crhulls(10)
Looks like having a DA raised by Weather Underground was too much, even for San Francisco:
"Boudin fell in love with David Gilbert in the 1970s and gave birth to their son Chesa in 1980. When her son was 14 months old, she was arrested and subsequently incarcerated for murder and bank robbery. Her son was raised by former Weatherman leaders Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn."
"Boudin fell in love with David Gilbert in the 1970s and gave birth to their son Chesa in 1980. When her son was 14 months old, she was arrested and subsequently incarcerated for murder and bank robbery. Her son was raised by former Weatherman leaders Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn."
It is disingenuous to say Weather Underground had anything to do with this recall. San Francisco voters knew of his parents' background back in 2019, and still gave him a chance. Ultimately he was kicked out due to his performance (or lack thereof).
If I were raised by people who had their justifications for "murder and bank robbery," I would also find it difficult to get my hackles up over shoplifters at the Walgreens. Apparently, the voters of SF had a lower tolerance for such things.
It is not "disingenuous" to attribute his recall to WU. It is common sense.
https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/shoplifters-walking-into...
It is not "disingenuous" to attribute his recall to WU. It is common sense.
https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/shoplifters-walking-into...
Children often grow up to hold opposite political views from their parents/guardians as a form of rebellion, so it's not that linear.
A (ethical) social experiment can be made by looking at siblings later in life (e.g. the Hitchens brothers).
A (ethical) social experiment can be made by looking at siblings later in life (e.g. the Hitchens brothers).
You are talking politics--the domain of public policy--where people often disagree on the means, while being mostly in agreement on the ends. I am talking value systems--regarding lawlessness as a tool rather than a dysfunction. Regardless of one's politics, I suspect most people are offended by the idea of using lawlessness in this way--as evidenced by his brief tenure.
Basketball for example: Say the fans see a player traveling. The referee also sees it, but does nothing. How will the fans react? Value systems. Rules are there to be enforced. People get pissed off when the rules aren't enforced, or enforced inconsistently.
I think it goes without saying that apples occasionally fall far from the tree... occasionally.
Basketball for example: Say the fans see a player traveling. The referee also sees it, but does nothing. How will the fans react? Value systems. Rules are there to be enforced. People get pissed off when the rules aren't enforced, or enforced inconsistently.
I think it goes without saying that apples occasionally fall far from the tree... occasionally.
If we are talking about radicalism (far right or far left), lawlessness, and value systems in general, get intertwined with politics.
Radicals will often see violence and law breaking as a means to an end.
I'm not saying this is the case, I don't know much about Boudin. Just mentioning that sometimes being brought up as a child regarding lawlessness as acceptable can sometimes result in the opposite views as an adult. It's not cut and dry.
Radicals will often see violence and law breaking as a means to an end.
I'm not saying this is the case, I don't know much about Boudin. Just mentioning that sometimes being brought up as a child regarding lawlessness as acceptable can sometimes result in the opposite views as an adult. It's not cut and dry.
Political views often shift over the course of a lifetime. Those that rebel with opposite views from their parents in their 20s often shift further center in their middle age.
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>Crime overall has fallen since Mr. Boudin took office in January 2020
lol, that's pretty easy to do when you just stop prosecuting people. Same way graduation rates increase if you just stop failing people. Who cares about the actual purpose of institutions or whether goals are being achieved, just make sure the numbers are what we want
https://twitter.com/DavidSacks/status/1533544746173571079
lol, that's pretty easy to do when you just stop prosecuting people. Same way graduation rates increase if you just stop failing people. Who cares about the actual purpose of institutions or whether goals are being achieved, just make sure the numbers are what we want
https://twitter.com/DavidSacks/status/1533544746173571079
I live in SF but don’t fully buy into the idea that any rise or fall in overall crime is on him.
He entered office right before Covid hit and there’s a dozen different factors that could have played a role here. Regardless it’s clear property crime is bad and downtown is still a ghost town with every other store deserted and companies don’t want to host conferences here anymore.
I don’t think anyone believes recalling him with magically fix any of these issues. To me I see it as more symbolic and a sort of public venting among voters of being fed up with quality of life issues that rarely seem to be top of mind of politicians anymore, and recalling a progressive DA sends a clear message.
He entered office right before Covid hit and there’s a dozen different factors that could have played a role here. Regardless it’s clear property crime is bad and downtown is still a ghost town with every other store deserted and companies don’t want to host conferences here anymore.
I don’t think anyone believes recalling him with magically fix any of these issues. To me I see it as more symbolic and a sort of public venting among voters of being fed up with quality of life issues that rarely seem to be top of mind of politicians anymore, and recalling a progressive DA sends a clear message.
You don't think being soft on crime has an effect on overall crime?
The more I read about this guy the more he sounds like a villain in Season Six of The Wire.
Yeah, what we need is more police state!
[deleted]
> lol, that's pretty easy to do when you just stop prosecuting people. Same way graduation rates increase if you just stop failing people.
Or the way COVID cases drop when you stop testing!
Or the way COVID cases drop when you stop testing!
This can't be simple as a corrupt or lazy prosecutor, right? What is the full story here?
A prosecutor who was captured by ideology.
care to expand on that?
DA parents were domestic terrorists jailed or murder (google it)
So he was raised with parents in jail and became a defendant attorney. He took power he took revenge on the system and people by stopping prosecuting people in the name of social justice, and letting crime run rampant.
Straight out of a Batman movie, just in real life there is no Batman to save SF.
People had enough and are revolting against this lying lunatic. Good riddance.
Straight out of a Batman movie, just in real life there is no Batman to save SF.
People had enough and are revolting against this lying lunatic. Good riddance.
Interesting. However your explanation does not look exactly impartial, what is the story from their side of things?
It also looks stupid and petty to "take revenge" from the system when the system can expel you before you actually do any significant damage. Wouldn't be more logical to rise to the top and bring it down from there by playing the system?
It also looks stupid and petty to "take revenge" from the system when the system can expel you before you actually do any significant damage. Wouldn't be more logical to rise to the top and bring it down from there by playing the system?
> what is the story from their side of things?
That crime is going down (but see grand-grand-grand parent's point about less prosecutions).
That these policies actually help the homeless or reduces crime(initial evidence does not look good).
That voters voting for recall are brain-washed by misinformation from Republicans (?!. Ah yes the classic misinformation bogeyman misleading the poor gullible voters).
That crime is going down (but see grand-grand-grand parent's point about less prosecutions).
That these policies actually help the homeless or reduces crime(initial evidence does not look good).
That voters voting for recall are brain-washed by misinformation from Republicans (?!. Ah yes the classic misinformation bogeyman misleading the poor gullible voters).
Judging from the chart, looks like about a 20% drop in felony prosecutions in 2020/2021 compared to a typical previous year, plus a larger drop in the number of misdemeanor prosecutions. (Which, note, are separate statistics from the number of reported crimes.)
The once-in-a-century pandemic also had significant effects here, both on the DA office and courts, and on the level/types of crime in the city, making it hard to get a clear causal story about the relation between prosecution decisions vs. crime rates.
What is the “actual purpose” of the DA’s office in your view: to prosecute as many cases as possible, irrespective of circumstances?
The once-in-a-century pandemic also had significant effects here, both on the DA office and courts, and on the level/types of crime in the city, making it hard to get a clear causal story about the relation between prosecution decisions vs. crime rates.
What is the “actual purpose” of the DA’s office in your view: to prosecute as many cases as possible, irrespective of circumstances?
Yes. In our adversarial justice system, we rely on the DA to eagerly prosecute, the defense attorney or public defender to eagerly defend, the judge or jury to render the verdict, and the legislature to pass laws. Trying to compensate for dysfunction in one system by introducing dysfunction in another only makes the issues worse.
Boudin was a public defender, and a pretty good one at that. He carried the public defender mindset into the DA's office, and it didn't work well.
(You edited your comment to add "irrespective of circumstances", which changes the meaning. There will always be gray areas where we rely on the judge or the DA to exercise discretion, but in a healthy system the scope of those areas can't amount to refusing to enforce entire statutes or reinterpreting statutes by executive policy.)
Boudin was a public defender, and a pretty good one at that. He carried the public defender mindset into the DA's office, and it didn't work well.
(You edited your comment to add "irrespective of circumstances", which changes the meaning. There will always be gray areas where we rely on the judge or the DA to exercise discretion, but in a healthy system the scope of those areas can't amount to refusing to enforce entire statutes or reinterpreting statutes by executive policy.)
We expect eager prosecution in the courtroom, but DAs should exercise discretion about when to bring charges at all. I have not followed this story close enough to have an opinion about its application in San Francisco, but nationally I feel pretty confident we should be dialing the knob down not up.
[deleted]
SFPD is rotten to the core and need to be recalled.
I don't like what I've heard about Boudin at all, but can someone explain how the 40% who supported Boudin might feel about this? What is their motivation? Is it as simple as not worrying too much about crime and believing Boudin's approach is justified?
It’s a gross abuse of the recall process. Recalls should be reserved for flagrant abuses of power, egregious ethical lapses, or profound incompetence.
If voters are just unhappy with an elected official, they should follow the normal election process. The SF DA is up for a routine election in November of 2023.
Turning recalls into a routine part of politics, where billionaire-backed activists can try to dump a bunch of money into advertising and redo every election they didn’t like the outcome of, in low-turnout primaries or special elections, ends up costing the city a fortune and distorting the ordinary political process.
If voters are just unhappy with an elected official, they should follow the normal election process. The SF DA is up for a routine election in November of 2023.
Turning recalls into a routine part of politics, where billionaire-backed activists can try to dump a bunch of money into advertising and redo every election they didn’t like the outcome of, in low-turnout primaries or special elections, ends up costing the city a fortune and distorting the ordinary political process.
Presumably the people who voted for the recall believe he's guilty of all three of those. Certainly, a prosecutor who refuses to prosecute criminals could be described as engaging in profound incompetence. It's hard to get worse at doing your job than outright refusing to do it.
[deleted]
Speaking in general terms, its likely due to low voter primary turnout. The change side of the party (the progressive side) is much more organized since they are attempting to challenge the status quo and therefore have much more recently put in place infrastructure to get out the vote (perhaps peaking in response to the tech influx/peak BLM/Trump) to get Chesa in.
The incumbents are generally properly larger but largely apathetic/too busy trying to afford SF rent - unless things go too far in the wrong direction.
I think the recent attempts by the newly installed progressives at renaming schools (while the schools were closed for covid), changing the admissions to the magnet school to be non-test based, etc. - led to some infrastructure being built among the moderate, middle class family democratic voting base - particularly on the western side (Richmond/Sunset) which is mostly Asian.
The fact that the media reported a lot of Anti-Asian crime in SF that Chesa didn't seem to do much about - probably fit well with this newly organized group.
The incumbents are generally properly larger but largely apathetic/too busy trying to afford SF rent - unless things go too far in the wrong direction.
I think the recent attempts by the newly installed progressives at renaming schools (while the schools were closed for covid), changing the admissions to the magnet school to be non-test based, etc. - led to some infrastructure being built among the moderate, middle class family democratic voting base - particularly on the western side (Richmond/Sunset) which is mostly Asian.
The fact that the media reported a lot of Anti-Asian crime in SF that Chesa didn't seem to do much about - probably fit well with this newly organized group.
I didn't really know anything about him beyond all the media the last year calling him the "Progressive DA in San Francisco" ... and then I read his wikipedia page and WEW.
I'm genuinely gobsmacked that a) people are surprised he behaved the way he did as DA and b) that some actually thought it was a good idea to elect a communist as chief law enforcement officer. Maybe don't do that? In any case, this is a rare but good story about democracy's fail safe mechanisms kicking in.
I'm genuinely gobsmacked that a) people are surprised he behaved the way he did as DA and b) that some actually thought it was a good idea to elect a communist as chief law enforcement officer. Maybe don't do that? In any case, this is a rare but good story about democracy's fail safe mechanisms kicking in.
> that some actually thought it was a good idea to elect a communist as chief law enforcement officer.
Blame the "tough on crime" crowd for that. They thought he'd be putting everyone in gulags, like any proper communist would.
Blame the "tough on crime" crowd for that. They thought he'd be putting everyone in gulags, like any proper communist would.
Can you explain why you want to do the other thing, when the results aren't really working?
Tomorrow's headline: Prosecution reform disappears following hundreds of catalytic converters
This recall seems to be an expression of our basic urge to punish, rather than any real desire to address the problems that lie at the root of most crime.
We’ve tried the “tough on crime” approach for so many years, and all it’s really done is inflate the prison population (with mostly non-white people, at that).
Hopefully someday we can break the cycle and make real changes that will (in time) reduce crime by addressing the sources of the problem in the first place.