Ask HN: I’m 41 and still unmarried – what should I do?
737 comments
One of my ex-girlfriends had a list of twenty things she required in a mate. I met 19 of them. She left. I met an amazing woman a couple of years later (at 43). We’re married and have an amazing 13 yo daughter. My ex is still single.
Maybe examine your standards. And I do mean this in a constructive way, by way of perhaps helping to troubleshoot. The way you describe your experience above, you present as high-expectation which though not needy can be high-maintenance in a different way. Maybe that’s true and maybe not, I don’t know you. My point is, the presentation is important.
Before the first date with my wife, we chatted for 3-1/2 hrs on okcupid. That we could hold a conversation that long made me optimistic about dating her. She chose the location for our first date. It was a noisy hangout bar and I could barely hear her. I asked for the check before she finished her food, my hope crushed. Why would someone choose a place like that to get to know someone? I’m walking to the car, dreading the ride back to her place when she asks if I’d like some ice cream. We went to Cold Stone and talked for about 5 hours.
Later in our relationship, we needed our communication skills to work through various conflicts. Even though we have high consensus about parenting, we don’t always see eye to eye. My point there, if you expect to find the perfect mate, also expect to be disappointed. What makes a relationship is the willingness to work through challenges.
Maybe examine your standards. And I do mean this in a constructive way, by way of perhaps helping to troubleshoot. The way you describe your experience above, you present as high-expectation which though not needy can be high-maintenance in a different way. Maybe that’s true and maybe not, I don’t know you. My point is, the presentation is important.
Before the first date with my wife, we chatted for 3-1/2 hrs on okcupid. That we could hold a conversation that long made me optimistic about dating her. She chose the location for our first date. It was a noisy hangout bar and I could barely hear her. I asked for the check before she finished her food, my hope crushed. Why would someone choose a place like that to get to know someone? I’m walking to the car, dreading the ride back to her place when she asks if I’d like some ice cream. We went to Cold Stone and talked for about 5 hours.
Later in our relationship, we needed our communication skills to work through various conflicts. Even though we have high consensus about parenting, we don’t always see eye to eye. My point there, if you expect to find the perfect mate, also expect to be disappointed. What makes a relationship is the willingness to work through challenges.
I really appreciate this reminder . A lot of dating books recommend getting really specific about what you want Funnily enough, I’ve had trouble writing a checklist. I know that I want someone who wants kids, is loving , kind , healthy and into monogamy. I do want to feel physically attracted to them but I think that could take many forms for me.
I really appreciate the part of the story where your wife invited you for ice cream. Sometimes I have difficulty being assertive because I’m afraid of rejection or I have a cultural expectation that if a man really liked me, he would chase.
But as your story illustrates, it can be very important for women to make that move!
Also what I’m getting from this and other threads is that it’s ok if a guy doesn’t seem to immediately want to marry you and have kids, and leave a little more time for the get to know you phase.
And then the get to know you phase that lasts the rest of your lives together.
Thanks so much for sharing your beautiful story.
I really appreciate the part of the story where your wife invited you for ice cream. Sometimes I have difficulty being assertive because I’m afraid of rejection or I have a cultural expectation that if a man really liked me, he would chase.
But as your story illustrates, it can be very important for women to make that move!
Also what I’m getting from this and other threads is that it’s ok if a guy doesn’t seem to immediately want to marry you and have kids, and leave a little more time for the get to know you phase.
And then the get to know you phase that lasts the rest of your lives together.
Thanks so much for sharing your beautiful story.
It would likely have been the end had she not invited me to ice cream.
I’ll share this other funny story. I had decided I was not going to be aggressive making the first move. Fun as they were, I was past looking for sexually-centered ‘relationships’, and I felt moving a little slower than usual would help me find the long term relationship I was looking for.
I show up for our fourth date. She’s curt and says come in. We get to the top of the stairs and she asks me to sit down and says “we need to talk”. Yes, THAT line. She says I think we should end this. I say ok, why? Well, I just don’t think you’re into me. Uh ok, why is that? Well you’ve only hugged me and haven’t even tried to kiss me. I immediately planted a passionate kiss on her lips. And explained I decided I was going to let her tell me when she was ready for more intimate touching. We went on the date and had a good time.
I’ll share this other funny story. I had decided I was not going to be aggressive making the first move. Fun as they were, I was past looking for sexually-centered ‘relationships’, and I felt moving a little slower than usual would help me find the long term relationship I was looking for.
I show up for our fourth date. She’s curt and says come in. We get to the top of the stairs and she asks me to sit down and says “we need to talk”. Yes, THAT line. She says I think we should end this. I say ok, why? Well, I just don’t think you’re into me. Uh ok, why is that? Well you’ve only hugged me and haven’t even tried to kiss me. I immediately planted a passionate kiss on her lips. And explained I decided I was going to let her tell me when she was ready for more intimate touching. We went on the date and had a good time.
I really like you and I really really like your wife. Your wife is proactive and you’re spending your evening giving love advice to a sad 41 year old lady. You two rock.
I read this exchange between us to my wife. I’m not religious and don’t know if you are or not, but she noted one thing missing from your list of things you’ve tried is going to Church.
Anyway, I do want to say your initial presentation vs your interactions are very different. You come across as kind, thoughtful and caring, three foundational features of any mate that can go the distance. Just remember it’s about numbers, there is that magic number of dates you need to endure before you find him. Set a goal of more dates per week than you’re currently doing to accelerate your way to that magic number. I was at 2/week when I found my DW.
Anyway, I do want to say your initial presentation vs your interactions are very different. You come across as kind, thoughtful and caring, three foundational features of any mate that can go the distance. Just remember it’s about numbers, there is that magic number of dates you need to endure before you find him. Set a goal of more dates per week than you’re currently doing to accelerate your way to that magic number. I was at 2/week when I found my DW.
Not GP, but I'll add to this: yes, sometimes the woman needs to be assertive, but you can do it such that the guy doesn't even notice.
I was a year into my marriage when my wife claimed that she was the one who did the pushing of the relationship forward. I said, "That's not true, I did." She asked me what I did to do it, and I opened my mouth. And stopped. I couldn't think of a single thing. My wife just stood there with a knowing smile on her face.
And that's when I learned that my wife had had the reins of the relationship from the beginning.
You can do the same thing; suggest things, make it seem like the guy is making decisions when he is really deciding between things that you have already chosen. Invite him not on dates, but to "help" you on certain things. (My wife pretended to want to learn programming, so I went to her home to do so. Then after suffering through that for 15 minutes, she asked if I wanted dinner. She eventually turned it into a full date. She boiled the frog with that date.
Yes, I was really that clueless. At one point I asked my mom if what my future wife was doing was a hint. She said, "No, they're not." I said, "Oh." I was confused until my mom said, "Those are outright, blatant flirting."
Yeah, I was that clueless.
Now, not every man will be that clueless, but I think what my wife did would have worked on a lot of them. And for others, you can still be more subtle.
I was a year into my marriage when my wife claimed that she was the one who did the pushing of the relationship forward. I said, "That's not true, I did." She asked me what I did to do it, and I opened my mouth. And stopped. I couldn't think of a single thing. My wife just stood there with a knowing smile on her face.
And that's when I learned that my wife had had the reins of the relationship from the beginning.
You can do the same thing; suggest things, make it seem like the guy is making decisions when he is really deciding between things that you have already chosen. Invite him not on dates, but to "help" you on certain things. (My wife pretended to want to learn programming, so I went to her home to do so. Then after suffering through that for 15 minutes, she asked if I wanted dinner. She eventually turned it into a full date. She boiled the frog with that date.
Yes, I was really that clueless. At one point I asked my mom if what my future wife was doing was a hint. She said, "No, they're not." I said, "Oh." I was confused until my mom said, "Those are outright, blatant flirting."
Yeah, I was that clueless.
Now, not every man will be that clueless, but I think what my wife did would have worked on a lot of them. And for others, you can still be more subtle.
Yes. One thing I am definitely going to take away from this is being more assertive. Really appreciate your thoughts.
> A lot of dating books recommend getting really specific about what you want
Also, from my personal experience, what you want is going to change over time. And even if someone checks your boxes today, they’re unlikely to be that same person in 10 years.
Being a parent changed me a lot (hopefully for the better) and 20s me, 30s me, 40s me are all pretty different guys in terms of priorities, willingness to listen to others, etc.
I echo other comments and say the priority is having a communication channel and the willingness to adapt.
Also, from my personal experience, what you want is going to change over time. And even if someone checks your boxes today, they’re unlikely to be that same person in 10 years.
Being a parent changed me a lot (hopefully for the better) and 20s me, 30s me, 40s me are all pretty different guys in terms of priorities, willingness to listen to others, etc.
I echo other comments and say the priority is having a communication channel and the willingness to adapt.
>Also, from my personal experience, what you want is going to change over time. And even if someone checks your boxes today, they’re unlikely to be that same person in 10 years.
And what you can afford is going to change over time.
And what you can afford is going to change over time.
I know I love to grow and change and adapt. It’s a little challenging to tell if the person you meet is an adapter or a communicator . Everyone says communication in a relationship is important but the reality can be different. Is there some way early on you could tell your partner was someone willing to adapt ?
I suppose traditionally this is what one learns during the fiancée stage of the relationship and given your accelerated timeline that’s definitely going to be a challenge. Unfortunately the only way I know to tell is to actually go through a couple of tough spots and see what happens and forcing it might not work. On the plus side, if you do find a test that is predictive and can also be used early in a relationship, you’ll be a best selling author of relationship books for sure.
Love this: "having a communication channel and the willingness to adapt"
Dating books are written by people who are in the business of selling books. I would doubt many elderly couples or parties of who are happily-married for decades write dating or relationship advice books. Keep your money and talk to happy couples: it's better information for cheaper.
I think that's a really good point. I do try to only read dating books by people who have happy, successful marriages. All the better if it was a challenge for them to find someone. People who found a happy marriage effortlessly often can't give that great advice because they didn't go through the struggle and find a solution.
My grandparents were both from extremely broken homes and married young (15 and 21). They were together until they passed, for 70+ years. Even so, they split for about 6 months at one point but came back together.
They:
Chose their battles.
Didn't hold grudges regarding resolving disagreements with compromises and solutions.
Worked together in things as simple as cleaning up the dishes (~6 minutes usually).
Spent a great deal of time together.
Never forgot love meant showing respect, kindness, and tenderness towards each other.
---
In my opinion, a keeper is found by gradually intuiting answers to the extreme fundamental questions in life:
1. Is the vibe approaching effortless, real, natural, and safe? This alone isn't enough but it's a good sign.
2. Do they tick most of the ideal adjectives of a sense of humor, honest, reliable, respectable, fascinating, wise, and not a liability?
3. Who would you (and they) prefer to be stuck on a proverbial deserted island with them?
3. Would you'd trust them implicitly with decisions about your life and everything else if you were away or incapacitated?
4. Have you seen their reactions to not getting their way, under pressure, and with people not in positions of power?
5. Would you die and/or kill (if absolutely essential) for them, and vice-versa again?
6. Are both of you better together than apart overall?
That's my 2c. My bill is in the mail. :)
They:
Chose their battles.
Didn't hold grudges regarding resolving disagreements with compromises and solutions.
Worked together in things as simple as cleaning up the dishes (~6 minutes usually).
Spent a great deal of time together.
Never forgot love meant showing respect, kindness, and tenderness towards each other.
---
In my opinion, a keeper is found by gradually intuiting answers to the extreme fundamental questions in life:
1. Is the vibe approaching effortless, real, natural, and safe? This alone isn't enough but it's a good sign.
2. Do they tick most of the ideal adjectives of a sense of humor, honest, reliable, respectable, fascinating, wise, and not a liability?
3. Who would you (and they) prefer to be stuck on a proverbial deserted island with them?
3. Would you'd trust them implicitly with decisions about your life and everything else if you were away or incapacitated?
4. Have you seen their reactions to not getting their way, under pressure, and with people not in positions of power?
5. Would you die and/or kill (if absolutely essential) for them, and vice-versa again?
6. Are both of you better together than apart overall?
That's my 2c. My bill is in the mail. :)
The first thing that I thought when I read the question is: why did those 120 dates not work out?
I know there are plenty of terrible men out there, but there are also plenty of great ones. 120 should be plenty to find a good match, so why was the match not there?
My wife is not perfect, and neither am I. We have our flaws, because everybody does. We're not the perfect mate the other would have designed if we had to design our perfect mate. We compromise, but we also bring things to the table that the other never expected. Don't cling to some idea of an ideal partner, but open yourself up to who they really are, and be willing to put in the work to make it work. And I think the most important attribute in a partner is that they too are willing to put in that work.
I know there are plenty of terrible men out there, but there are also plenty of great ones. 120 should be plenty to find a good match, so why was the match not there?
My wife is not perfect, and neither am I. We have our flaws, because everybody does. We're not the perfect mate the other would have designed if we had to design our perfect mate. We compromise, but we also bring things to the table that the other never expected. Don't cling to some idea of an ideal partner, but open yourself up to who they really are, and be willing to put in the work to make it work. And I think the most important attribute in a partner is that they too are willing to put in that work.
This is a really good question and one people asked me over and over.
The reason I didn’t go into it more is because when I wrote this post, I was more curious about discovering strategies or hacks others had personally used to find their partner, especially after initially failing.
This is one of the most foreword-thinking, creating online communities solving some of the worlds biggest problems on a global scale. I felt that my post sounded desperate and I was prepared for trolls. But I felt it was worth it to expose myself in this deeply personal way in order to gather insights on problem-solving , specifically love hacks , from such brilliant minds.
I am not the only person with this problem and so I wanted to approach this community of highly creative problem solvers to see if they’d found any solutions I hadn’t thought of.
And then to determine myself if this solution could work for me.
Hearing about people’s personal experiences and from some of the data scientists who have weighed in, has been invaluable. And for that, I am so grateful.
In the beginning of the conversation, I felt that this was the tone: people were giving advice based on their own experiences or from their perspective as programmers and data scientists.
However, as the conversation went on, I felt it became more and more about people analyzing my personal psychology. And people became increasingly insistent I offer up the reasons I did not go on second dates with some people. I felt almost that I was on trial for poor discernment in who I was attracted to or not. Or even, for not being attracted to a particular person, as if that was somehow malevolent on my part.
I’m terms of my personal psychology, I already feel I have support in that area. I have licensed professionals, a therapist, two highly experienced spiritual teachers and very good friends and blunt family members who give me honest, though not always easy to hear feedback.
And I’m far from perfect. As you all saw, while I started answering people graciously, as I got more fatigued , I started to become less gracious, less clear, lost my temper and even spoke to people and about people in a way that was extremely arrogant, dismissive and rude. When I’m tired, I sometimes have a short fuse, and I’m sorry.
(To be clear, I have had overwhelming crushes on men of all shapes and sizes, lots of lovely hair and beautiful smooth heads. You are all handsome in your way.)
When I posted, I was not looking for a deep analysis of my personal psychology or character. And I believe I am not obligated to answer questions about that to a group of strangers.
It did feel a little uncomfortable when people started asking, then if felt, almost demanding, and at times accusing me for why I chose not to go on second dates with 90% of the men I met online.
Certainly, I’ve wondered many times if I’m too selective. And in fact, when I first started dating in my early thirties, I believe I was focused on the wrong things. Since then, I’ve learned that one can really grow to love someone even if there isn’t a spark in the first date - and it’s far better to focus on qualities rather than materialistic things like looks or job.
During my most recent round of dating, I kept a log of every single date I went on. I chose an accountability partner who is cutthroat honest who I told about every experience and why I didn’t want to go on a second date. If she felt the reason was bad, I gave the person another try.
The other reason I did not feel I wanted to share why I didn’t go on second dates, is because I don’t like to disparage others. (Yes, I know it happened in my comments) This post is about my experience, not the men I went out with, who I know will make some woman very happy one day.
Among the reasons I did not go on second dates include sexual harassment, insults, extreme religious views, being rude to a homeless person, overconsumption of alcohol, drug addiction and yes, occasionally bad breath, maybe not fair but it happens. Sometimes, I just wasn’t at all attracted to the person.
I hope this explains my reluctance to not justify the specific reasons I did not go on second dates and I once again thank everyone who weighed in - especially those of you who did volunteer some great, scaleable love hacks :)
Together, through our creative minds and the power of technology, I believe we can solve any problem in the world.
The reason I didn’t go into it more is because when I wrote this post, I was more curious about discovering strategies or hacks others had personally used to find their partner, especially after initially failing.
This is one of the most foreword-thinking, creating online communities solving some of the worlds biggest problems on a global scale. I felt that my post sounded desperate and I was prepared for trolls. But I felt it was worth it to expose myself in this deeply personal way in order to gather insights on problem-solving , specifically love hacks , from such brilliant minds.
I am not the only person with this problem and so I wanted to approach this community of highly creative problem solvers to see if they’d found any solutions I hadn’t thought of.
And then to determine myself if this solution could work for me.
Hearing about people’s personal experiences and from some of the data scientists who have weighed in, has been invaluable. And for that, I am so grateful.
In the beginning of the conversation, I felt that this was the tone: people were giving advice based on their own experiences or from their perspective as programmers and data scientists.
However, as the conversation went on, I felt it became more and more about people analyzing my personal psychology. And people became increasingly insistent I offer up the reasons I did not go on second dates with some people. I felt almost that I was on trial for poor discernment in who I was attracted to or not. Or even, for not being attracted to a particular person, as if that was somehow malevolent on my part.
I’m terms of my personal psychology, I already feel I have support in that area. I have licensed professionals, a therapist, two highly experienced spiritual teachers and very good friends and blunt family members who give me honest, though not always easy to hear feedback.
And I’m far from perfect. As you all saw, while I started answering people graciously, as I got more fatigued , I started to become less gracious, less clear, lost my temper and even spoke to people and about people in a way that was extremely arrogant, dismissive and rude. When I’m tired, I sometimes have a short fuse, and I’m sorry.
(To be clear, I have had overwhelming crushes on men of all shapes and sizes, lots of lovely hair and beautiful smooth heads. You are all handsome in your way.)
When I posted, I was not looking for a deep analysis of my personal psychology or character. And I believe I am not obligated to answer questions about that to a group of strangers.
It did feel a little uncomfortable when people started asking, then if felt, almost demanding, and at times accusing me for why I chose not to go on second dates with 90% of the men I met online.
Certainly, I’ve wondered many times if I’m too selective. And in fact, when I first started dating in my early thirties, I believe I was focused on the wrong things. Since then, I’ve learned that one can really grow to love someone even if there isn’t a spark in the first date - and it’s far better to focus on qualities rather than materialistic things like looks or job.
During my most recent round of dating, I kept a log of every single date I went on. I chose an accountability partner who is cutthroat honest who I told about every experience and why I didn’t want to go on a second date. If she felt the reason was bad, I gave the person another try.
The other reason I did not feel I wanted to share why I didn’t go on second dates, is because I don’t like to disparage others. (Yes, I know it happened in my comments) This post is about my experience, not the men I went out with, who I know will make some woman very happy one day.
Among the reasons I did not go on second dates include sexual harassment, insults, extreme religious views, being rude to a homeless person, overconsumption of alcohol, drug addiction and yes, occasionally bad breath, maybe not fair but it happens. Sometimes, I just wasn’t at all attracted to the person.
I hope this explains my reluctance to not justify the specific reasons I did not go on second dates and I once again thank everyone who weighed in - especially those of you who did volunteer some great, scaleable love hacks :)
Together, through our creative minds and the power of technology, I believe we can solve any problem in the world.
Have you gone to a matchmaker?
While 120 dates sounds like a lot, over 2 years that’s only an average of 5 dates per month. I think it’s a numbers game and you should be meeting like 5 people per week like it’s your second job (this means quick drink after work, and pay for yourself unless you want to see him again). I’m in NYC and this is what I did until I met my now husband; full disclosure I was 33 when we met though so I get that dating is very different at 41.
Regardless, since you desire biological children, you really need to adjust your expectations. You’re not in your 20s and your pool of options is getting smaller— it’s just reality. You listed reasons why you didn’t want a second date with some of these men but I just can’t imagine that Not one of them wasn’t just a nice normal average guy. You are the common denominator.
maybe consider that you’re expecting more than what you can buy in the dating market. You you have to pick from the options you have. It also sounds like you probably need a new accountability buddy; or maybe your perception is skewed and you’re portrayal of these dates is inaccurate. Ultimately, you are at the point that you need to settle for a nice average guy who also wants a family and would also be settling for you.
Lastly, check out this interview with Logan Ury (see link). She's a Google behavioral scientist turned dating coach and director of relationship science at the dating app Hinge. She mentions research shows that only 11% of people feel love at first sight or felt love at first sight with their partner (ie: “spark”). She gives solid advice backed by data.
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/965397828
While 120 dates sounds like a lot, over 2 years that’s only an average of 5 dates per month. I think it’s a numbers game and you should be meeting like 5 people per week like it’s your second job (this means quick drink after work, and pay for yourself unless you want to see him again). I’m in NYC and this is what I did until I met my now husband; full disclosure I was 33 when we met though so I get that dating is very different at 41.
Regardless, since you desire biological children, you really need to adjust your expectations. You’re not in your 20s and your pool of options is getting smaller— it’s just reality. You listed reasons why you didn’t want a second date with some of these men but I just can’t imagine that Not one of them wasn’t just a nice normal average guy. You are the common denominator.
maybe consider that you’re expecting more than what you can buy in the dating market. You you have to pick from the options you have. It also sounds like you probably need a new accountability buddy; or maybe your perception is skewed and you’re portrayal of these dates is inaccurate. Ultimately, you are at the point that you need to settle for a nice average guy who also wants a family and would also be settling for you.
Lastly, check out this interview with Logan Ury (see link). She's a Google behavioral scientist turned dating coach and director of relationship science at the dating app Hinge. She mentions research shows that only 11% of people feel love at first sight or felt love at first sight with their partner (ie: “spark”). She gives solid advice backed by data.
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/965397828
I'm again impressed by your engagement.
I understand why you wanted the focus to be more generic. That's not how I or most other problem solvers I know approach solving problems. Certainly, one could write out a general theory of optimal mate selection that you would be able to apply to yourself without further back and forth. Crafting such a theory is several orders of magnitude more difficult than searching for a potential improvement in a given implementation.
With the disclaimer that I can't speak for others, I suggest that figuring out your rejection function isn't about deciding whether a given decision is good or bad and most certainly isn't an attempt to tell you who you should be attracted to.
There are a few intellectually interesting puzzles it presents: 1. Given some sense of what appeals to actfrench, where is she likely to find more such people? //You provided enough information to give a sense of this 2. Is there a discernible reason that the men she tends to accept tend to reject her? //I have a hypothesis but this is less clear 3. Is there some fundamental conflict between different aspects of what she likes? //Again, less clear 4. Are there reasons to filter someone out earlier in the process? //Again, maybe but unclear
As you note, you have no obligation to deal with any of this. But since you came back after a few days and decided to invest your energy in this, I'm giving you the perspective of one of those guilty of the aforementioned sin on why your psyche seems like a crucial part of solving the puzzle.
Ultimately dating is optimizing three things: 1. The utility of members of the candidate stream: P(Match) - Cost of discovery 2. The quality of rejection function which is a function of both information collected and discriminatory power 3. The probability that the candidate one most wants, wants you back
Anyway, yes, we can solve any problem in the world. One of us has to decide to build a new type of matching experience. I've toyed with doing so as I'm sure dozens of others here have. Sadly, the main constraint is time. Do we fix dating or healthcare or politics or education or just keep our little slice of industry functioning smoothly in exchange for the resources to live.
It will be solved. When and by whom remains unknown. In the meantime, cheers to special casing the problem and decrementing the target market size by one.
I understand why you wanted the focus to be more generic. That's not how I or most other problem solvers I know approach solving problems. Certainly, one could write out a general theory of optimal mate selection that you would be able to apply to yourself without further back and forth. Crafting such a theory is several orders of magnitude more difficult than searching for a potential improvement in a given implementation.
With the disclaimer that I can't speak for others, I suggest that figuring out your rejection function isn't about deciding whether a given decision is good or bad and most certainly isn't an attempt to tell you who you should be attracted to.
There are a few intellectually interesting puzzles it presents: 1. Given some sense of what appeals to actfrench, where is she likely to find more such people? //You provided enough information to give a sense of this 2. Is there a discernible reason that the men she tends to accept tend to reject her? //I have a hypothesis but this is less clear 3. Is there some fundamental conflict between different aspects of what she likes? //Again, less clear 4. Are there reasons to filter someone out earlier in the process? //Again, maybe but unclear
As you note, you have no obligation to deal with any of this. But since you came back after a few days and decided to invest your energy in this, I'm giving you the perspective of one of those guilty of the aforementioned sin on why your psyche seems like a crucial part of solving the puzzle.
Ultimately dating is optimizing three things: 1. The utility of members of the candidate stream: P(Match) - Cost of discovery 2. The quality of rejection function which is a function of both information collected and discriminatory power 3. The probability that the candidate one most wants, wants you back
Anyway, yes, we can solve any problem in the world. One of us has to decide to build a new type of matching experience. I've toyed with doing so as I'm sure dozens of others here have. Sadly, the main constraint is time. Do we fix dating or healthcare or politics or education or just keep our little slice of industry functioning smoothly in exchange for the resources to live.
It will be solved. When and by whom remains unknown. In the meantime, cheers to special casing the problem and decrementing the target market size by one.
“ I understand why you wanted the focus to be more generic.” Actually I wanted the focus to be more specific- on how individuals had solved this problem for themselves, rather than on giving me generic advice.
Huh! That makes sense. And is also confusing. It’s not problem solving; it’s reading stories from which you might glean some combination of hope and a technique or two to mimic.
If I wanted to solicit stories like that, I’d tend to post on Reddit rather than HN and ask something like, “How did those of you who went on dozens or even a hundred dates with little success find a life partner?”
If I wanted to solicit stories like that, I’d tend to post on Reddit rather than HN and ask something like, “How did those of you who went on dozens or even a hundred dates with little success find a life partner?”
Great idea! I'm going to try this! I'll let you know how it goes:)
Checklist people who act like they're entitled to order a person at Burger King are perpetual unicorn chasers. The ego and self-absorption of those types is suffocating.
The good stuff is when it's effortless at first. For the long term, both parties have to be willing to put in the work to cooperate with another differently opinionated, fallible human being. Too many people ("middle-class" Americans 20-35) behave in an entitled manner without putting in the effort or the reciprocity. They're indeed special, like everyone else.
Edit: Also, you should know how someone behaves in extreme situations because that reveals their character. "Do you trust them with your life and everything else?" is the question that must be resolved eventually in the affirmative to consider them a dependable and trustworthy keeper.
The good stuff is when it's effortless at first. For the long term, both parties have to be willing to put in the work to cooperate with another differently opinionated, fallible human being. Too many people ("middle-class" Americans 20-35) behave in an entitled manner without putting in the effort or the reciprocity. They're indeed special, like everyone else.
Edit: Also, you should know how someone behaves in extreme situations because that reveals their character. "Do you trust them with your life and everything else?" is the question that must be resolved eventually in the affirmative to consider them a dependable and trustworthy keeper.
I tend to think that when you have a checklist, you're approaching a partner as if they are merchandise for sale. It's better to look at what you share between you, like good communication, love, attraction.
But also, I think that sometimes people have checklists because they are actually really insecure about intimacy. So, I have great empathy for that.
Ah, good ol' insecure attachment styles, emotional unavailability, and/or fear of abandonment.
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BTW: If you want to be immensely unpopular with most people, get good ones tagging along with other good ones of their preferred general demographics. It's absolutely revolting when people consider others besides themselves without ulterior motive but to be cool. :peace:
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BTW: If you want to be immensely unpopular with most people, get good ones tagging along with other good ones of their preferred general demographics. It's absolutely revolting when people consider others besides themselves without ulterior motive but to be cool. :peace:
I have to ask, what was the 20th trait that you did not possess? Only for my on curiosity. And only if you feel comfortable answering
I'll take 3 guesses:
a. 13" x 9". A tape measure and body shaming ensued.
b. Minimum $200m net balance sheet.
c. Minimum 6'7" height.
a. 13" x 9". A tape measure and body shaming ensued.
b. Minimum $200m net balance sheet.
c. Minimum 6'7" height.
Hi sorry for personal question, but you meant you had a child at 43?
Checklist-driven dating.
Re-examining standards and re-evaluating whether every box needs to be ticked is a hugely important next step. I thought at one point that I'd met someone who "checks" all my boxes only to learn that we had some fundamental incompatibilities that kept the relationship from being fruitful for the both of us (in a metaphorical sense).
And honestly, if I encountered a partner who's methodically researched dating with the goal of having kids ASAP, I'd be terrified of getting baby-trapped. The desperation is a colossal turn-off.
Also, since crowdsourcing is up her alley, crowdsourcing relationship errors might not be a bad idea when it comes to OP figuring out where she's going wrong.
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Then again, I run Relationship Advice on Reddit. Mild bias on my part.
Re-examining standards and re-evaluating whether every box needs to be ticked is a hugely important next step. I thought at one point that I'd met someone who "checks" all my boxes only to learn that we had some fundamental incompatibilities that kept the relationship from being fruitful for the both of us (in a metaphorical sense).
And honestly, if I encountered a partner who's methodically researched dating with the goal of having kids ASAP, I'd be terrified of getting baby-trapped. The desperation is a colossal turn-off.
Also, since crowdsourcing is up her alley, crowdsourcing relationship errors might not be a bad idea when it comes to OP figuring out where she's going wrong.
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Then again, I run Relationship Advice on Reddit. Mild bias on my part.
All true. Maybe I should post this on your channel on Reddit:)
I certainly don’t lead the first date with wanting to have kids unless people ask. But I’ve heard from several relationship experts to be sure values are aligned in the first couple dates. Fortunately, people usually specify this in dating apps so you can filter for people who don’t want kids.
Funnily enough, one of the biggest turn-offs I’ve experienced from men is them asking me very specific questions about my fertility and the quality of my eggs even before we went on a first date or even via text BEFORE we met such as, and I kid you not, “how long ago did you freeze your eggs.” “Oh you want kids, are you planning to adopt ? Because , your age…” “ would you be willing to have kids before we got married, because your age…” again, via text before we even met.
I don’t think there’s any shame in being clear I want a family soon and hopefully this will attract a man who shared the same goal.
I certainly don’t lead the first date with wanting to have kids unless people ask. But I’ve heard from several relationship experts to be sure values are aligned in the first couple dates. Fortunately, people usually specify this in dating apps so you can filter for people who don’t want kids.
Funnily enough, one of the biggest turn-offs I’ve experienced from men is them asking me very specific questions about my fertility and the quality of my eggs even before we went on a first date or even via text BEFORE we met such as, and I kid you not, “how long ago did you freeze your eggs.” “Oh you want kids, are you planning to adopt ? Because , your age…” “ would you be willing to have kids before we got married, because your age…” again, via text before we even met.
I don’t think there’s any shame in being clear I want a family soon and hopefully this will attract a man who shared the same goal.
As a man not much younger than you, it's helpful to hear that's a turn-off. What to ask when is tricky. I see several options:
Of course, you're doing that now. This has gotten so much attention that it I'd give you one-third odds of being married in 18 months to either someone who saw this thread or someone someone who sees this thread introduces you to.
This is the dilemma with so many things. In trying to figure out a generic way of solving the problem, you take an approach that works fabulously for you but is difficult to scale. A bit like the education problem...
1. Estimate the odds of successfully procreating upfront; Downside: Can seem boorish and unromantic and ruin the chance of a potentially successful relationship.
2. Keep getting to know each other and discuss once we're more comfortable with each other. If the answer is unfavorable:
a. Be honest about the reason for ending the relationship; Downside: Cruel to one's partner and heartbreaking
b. Fabricate an excuse for ending things; Downside: Dishonest and unfair to partner; guilt and heartbreak
c. Stay anyway; Downside: Reduces likelihood of having children
Of course, you're doing that now. This has gotten so much attention that it I'd give you one-third odds of being married in 18 months to either someone who saw this thread or someone someone who sees this thread introduces you to.
This is the dilemma with so many things. In trying to figure out a generic way of solving the problem, you take an approach that works fabulously for you but is difficult to scale. A bit like the education problem...
I think that it’s perfectly fine to be up front that you want children to a woman, even the first date - or filtering for woman who also want children.
What is not ok is inferring that they couldn’t have children because of their age or asking very pointed questions about their reproductive health on a first date, especially if they don’t want to volunteer that information to someone they barely know. Don’t you think it would be odd if a woman who you were ok a first date asked you about your sperm count and pressured you to reply if you weren’t able to volunteer that info immediately ?
The other thing is that I am clear about my age and desire to have children in my dating profile, so it’s upsetting to have someone second guess me on a first date…
If a woman is kind and compassionate and honest and not sure about her ability to have kids, when you’ve expressed a strong desire to have them, she’ll take the high road and tell you or leave the relationship.
If you are ready to get more serious with someone and have trust and intimacy built up, it is totally ok to have that conversation.
What is not ok is inferring that they couldn’t have children because of their age or asking very pointed questions about their reproductive health on a first date, especially if they don’t want to volunteer that information to someone they barely know. Don’t you think it would be odd if a woman who you were ok a first date asked you about your sperm count and pressured you to reply if you weren’t able to volunteer that info immediately ?
The other thing is that I am clear about my age and desire to have children in my dating profile, so it’s upsetting to have someone second guess me on a first date…
If a woman is kind and compassionate and honest and not sure about her ability to have kids, when you’ve expressed a strong desire to have them, she’ll take the high road and tell you or leave the relationship.
If you are ready to get more serious with someone and have trust and intimacy built up, it is totally ok to have that conversation.
"Of course, you're doing that now. This has gotten so much attention that it I'd give you one-third odds of being married in 18 months to either someone who saw this thread or someone someone who sees this thread introduces you to."
That's a really kind and encouraging thought. I appreciate that.
It's kind of amusing to me that people are starting to think the way I presented myself in this post is the way I should present myself on a first date. I would also worry about scaring someone away! That said, I've already met a couple people through the post, so maybe being up front and explicit about what I want is a good thing!
In trying to figure out a generic way of solving the problem, you take an approach that works fabulously for you but is difficult to scale." ->> so true
" A bit like the education problem..." nice one:) you pay attention to detail!
That's a really kind and encouraging thought. I appreciate that.
It's kind of amusing to me that people are starting to think the way I presented myself in this post is the way I should present myself on a first date. I would also worry about scaring someone away! That said, I've already met a couple people through the post, so maybe being up front and explicit about what I want is a good thing!
In trying to figure out a generic way of solving the problem, you take an approach that works fabulously for you but is difficult to scale." ->> so true
" A bit like the education problem..." nice one:) you pay attention to detail!
You came back to a thread a day later to engage. That takes an unusual amount of dedication and patience.
An assortment of thoughts: I hope you read How to Win Friends and Influence People. And it's not because you need it to know how to communicate. While I'm sure you'd learn a few things about talking to others, I suspect you'll learn something about the way various styles of communication make you feel. You can see it in the variance of of your responses in this thread. I'm not convinced that this is a core issue but seeing the way a few different comments have elicited affection combined with your comment about wanting to feel seen makes me think it could explain why the men who attract you so often tend to disappear.
It might be interesting to ask your dates at what point during the thread they decided they wanted to get to know you. I can imagine a more analytical person finding you appealing enough from the intro. But if I had to guess, this medium works for two reasons. The non-scalable one is that humans care more as they know someone better. The thread is long and you get vastly more mental attention than through other means of introduction. The scalable ones are attributes that come through in your comments but not in your post: You radiate earnestness and ebullience at a level that's rare even in humans a decade younger; you're indefatigably engaged; you have the patience to try and reason with almost anyone yet occasionally lose your temper which is further evidence of complexity; in short you appear human.
An assortment of thoughts: I hope you read How to Win Friends and Influence People. And it's not because you need it to know how to communicate. While I'm sure you'd learn a few things about talking to others, I suspect you'll learn something about the way various styles of communication make you feel. You can see it in the variance of of your responses in this thread. I'm not convinced that this is a core issue but seeing the way a few different comments have elicited affection combined with your comment about wanting to feel seen makes me think it could explain why the men who attract you so often tend to disappear.
It might be interesting to ask your dates at what point during the thread they decided they wanted to get to know you. I can imagine a more analytical person finding you appealing enough from the intro. But if I had to guess, this medium works for two reasons. The non-scalable one is that humans care more as they know someone better. The thread is long and you get vastly more mental attention than through other means of introduction. The scalable ones are attributes that come through in your comments but not in your post: You radiate earnestness and ebullience at a level that's rare even in humans a decade younger; you're indefatigably engaged; you have the patience to try and reason with almost anyone yet occasionally lose your temper which is further evidence of complexity; in short you appear human.
Thank you so much. I really appreciate the time and energy people have spent being engaged with this and their genuine desire to help.
In terms of action items : I will read the book How To Win Friends, and I’m also going to focus on developing relationships with male friends and dating more. Taking more time to get to know people and they me.
Speaking of being indefatigable, I am quite driven when I want something and it’s hard for me to stop, but especially with some of the more recent comments, I think I’ve reached the fatigued point.
With regards to dates : I went out with an incredible guy today that I met through this post, 10x liked him more than any of the last 90 dates.
He said what drew him is how brave I sounded.
We will see what happens but I’ll going to focus on friendship and being bold. I asked him to hang out again :)
Thanks for your kind words and I look forward to reading the book :)
In terms of action items : I will read the book How To Win Friends, and I’m also going to focus on developing relationships with male friends and dating more. Taking more time to get to know people and they me.
Speaking of being indefatigable, I am quite driven when I want something and it’s hard for me to stop, but especially with some of the more recent comments, I think I’ve reached the fatigued point.
With regards to dates : I went out with an incredible guy today that I met through this post, 10x liked him more than any of the last 90 dates.
He said what drew him is how brave I sounded.
We will see what happens but I’ll going to focus on friendship and being bold. I asked him to hang out again :)
Thanks for your kind words and I look forward to reading the book :)
I suspect the bigger challenges in the modern dating market is guys who assume they have all the time in the world to have kids. (Which is not true. Sperm quality degrades with age.)
For what it’s worth, my wife’s view is that women who want kids should be clear about that up front to filter out guys who aren’t like minded. They are out there. Men want kids as much as women, statistically. Maybe find a south Asian guy whose mom has put him on a deadline, lol.
For what it’s worth, my wife’s view is that women who want kids should be clear about that up front to filter out guys who aren’t like minded. They are out there. Men want kids as much as women, statistically. Maybe find a south Asian guy whose mom has put him on a deadline, lol.
> (Which is not true. Sperm quality degrades with age.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War_widows_who_...
On December 10, 1927, the then-21-year-old Stewart married the 81-year-old Martin, primarily to get help raising her son and because his $50 per month Confederate pension check guaranteed her a degree of financial security. She gave birth to a second son, Willie Martin, 10 months after her wedding to William Jasper Martin, who was 82 at the time of the child's birth.
The child trap can work both ways - a woman wanting a child but not a spouse may attempt to divorce and leave with the child, which could be a turn-off for men who actually want children but want the woman to value them - not only as fathers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War_widows_who_...
On December 10, 1927, the then-21-year-old Stewart married the 81-year-old Martin, primarily to get help raising her son and because his $50 per month Confederate pension check guaranteed her a degree of financial security. She gave birth to a second son, Willie Martin, 10 months after her wedding to William Jasper Martin, who was 82 at the time of the child's birth.
The child trap can work both ways - a woman wanting a child but not a spouse may attempt to divorce and leave with the child, which could be a turn-off for men who actually want children but want the woman to value them - not only as fathers.
> I don’t think there’s any shame in being clear I want a family soon
This ruins a lot of my friends dating scenarios. I think you maybe should rethink that.
In my humble opinion, the laws of supply and demand are stacked against you. Most single men in there 40's expect that there partners are wanting to have kids and feel pressured by hearing it on a date.
You also could miss high quality options who say they're " not ready" to have kids, when they mean that they haven't met the right person and/or haven't arrived at their desired financial level. If men think they can't provide, they are going to say "no to kids". I had a friend that was 38 and said he didn't want kids, then he was given a $70k increase ( from $110,000 to $180,000) 3 months later and then he switched to ready to have kid and was married within 6 months. Men need to feel they have a financial security or they will pass.
I think the right answer to my friend circle would be " I do really want to have kids someday with the right person, but not in the next 2 years." Then you can re-evaluate a month later if things are going good and say " we have a great connection, I really would be open to having kids much sooner. Thoughts?"
I know a few guys this worked on. They just were hearing kids immediately as a red flag, when really they were more inline then what either party truly understood at the time.
Think on it. Hope this helps.
This ruins a lot of my friends dating scenarios. I think you maybe should rethink that.
In my humble opinion, the laws of supply and demand are stacked against you. Most single men in there 40's expect that there partners are wanting to have kids and feel pressured by hearing it on a date.
You also could miss high quality options who say they're " not ready" to have kids, when they mean that they haven't met the right person and/or haven't arrived at their desired financial level. If men think they can't provide, they are going to say "no to kids". I had a friend that was 38 and said he didn't want kids, then he was given a $70k increase ( from $110,000 to $180,000) 3 months later and then he switched to ready to have kid and was married within 6 months. Men need to feel they have a financial security or they will pass.
I think the right answer to my friend circle would be " I do really want to have kids someday with the right person, but not in the next 2 years." Then you can re-evaluate a month later if things are going good and say " we have a great connection, I really would be open to having kids much sooner. Thoughts?"
I know a few guys this worked on. They just were hearing kids immediately as a red flag, when really they were more inline then what either party truly understood at the time.
Think on it. Hope this helps.
Great idea about the 'not in the next 2 years'. I would have fallen for that myself. Myself, we waited for 4 years after marriage to have our first. Looking back, I wish we had started off having kids. We have 2 ... I wish we had 4. Oh well.
Just today my 2 year old drank shampoo because we haven't watched him (I was with his older brother). How do people even handle 4 kids? And how do you handle 2 such that you think that having 4 would be great?
this sounds like a failure of communicating more than anything else. your friend at 38 wasn't making clear why he didn't want kids. in his position i'd have said, i don't earn enough money yet for kids.
Men need to feel they have a financial security or they will pass
i wonder if men who need a high income before they fell that security are potentially covering up other insecurities or are just very materialistic. i'd be wary.
"not in the next 2 years." Then you can re-evaluate a month later
i don't like that much. i'd prefer people clearly state their expectations. make clear what conditions you expect before you can have kids. don't have hidden criteria that make you change your mind without the other being aware.
(btw, if i may say so, if we are all going to wait until we have such a high income before having kids then the birthrate is going to drop even more than it already is. but that's just another sign that raising kids in the US is just way to expensive)
Men need to feel they have a financial security or they will pass
i wonder if men who need a high income before they fell that security are potentially covering up other insecurities or are just very materialistic. i'd be wary.
"not in the next 2 years." Then you can re-evaluate a month later
i don't like that much. i'd prefer people clearly state their expectations. make clear what conditions you expect before you can have kids. don't have hidden criteria that make you change your mind without the other being aware.
(btw, if i may say so, if we are all going to wait until we have such a high income before having kids then the birthrate is going to drop even more than it already is. but that's just another sign that raising kids in the US is just way to expensive)
> i don't like that much. i'd prefer people clearly state their expectations. make clear what conditions you expect before you can have kids. don't have hidden criteria that make you change your mind without the other being aware.
That part made me uncomfy too. I'm quite young and I've never dated so take this with a grain of salt, but maybe also clarify that you're open to the fact that you may change your mind? I don't know.
That part made me uncomfy too. I'm quite young and I've never dated so take this with a grain of salt, but maybe also clarify that you're open to the fact that you may change your mind? I don't know.
I tend to agree with this. I also feel that in general men who are in my age range have a clearer idea of what they want and I try to respect that instead of trying to change things or "hook them in." In their twenties, their mind might change drastically, but not so much later in life.
In general, I swipe left on guys who explicitly say they don't want kids or have and don't want more. That's pretty much the extent of it. I've learned not to think I can change somebody if they are that specific that they don't want children.
I totally agree. I once broke off a relationship because she was very clear about not wanting kids. I did want kids. I was madly in love otherwise, but I just couldn't see this working.
Also she smoked. It was clearly a relationship where my emotions conflicted with any sense of reason.
Also she smoked. It was clearly a relationship where my emotions conflicted with any sense of reason.
Seriously ridiculous questions. I know many of my Gen-X peers started families in their 40’s without assistance.
But do you know how many tried and failed? The chance of failure at 40 is definitely higher than 30 (unless you froze eggs when younger).
> The percentage of IVF cycle starts that resulted in live births was 41.5% in women younger than 35 years, 31.9% in women aged 35–37 years, 22.1% in women aged 38–40 years, 12.4% in women aged 41–42 years, 5% in women aged 43–44 years, and 1 % for women older than 44 years. In contrast, in patients who used eggs obtained from healthy, young donors, 51% of fresh transfers resulted in a live birth, regardless of the age of the recipient.
https://www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/committee-op...
> The percentage of IVF cycle starts that resulted in live births was 41.5% in women younger than 35 years, 31.9% in women aged 35–37 years, 22.1% in women aged 38–40 years, 12.4% in women aged 41–42 years, 5% in women aged 43–44 years, and 1 % for women older than 44 years. In contrast, in patients who used eggs obtained from healthy, young donors, 51% of fresh transfers resulted in a live birth, regardless of the age of the recipient.
https://www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/committee-op...
This is one of the statistical realities I really wish society was more open about. It would really help women make proper informed decisions.
That is against the narrative that women are equal or can do everything.
Nature is different as fertility patterns between man and women.
If women does not have their ducks in line at 32.
This thread happens.
I am not saying this is fair or nice.
However men usually dies 5 years earlier in average.
Things are different saying its not does not help.
Edge cases are not normal.
Nature is different as fertility patterns between man and women.
If women does not have their ducks in line at 32.
This thread happens.
I am not saying this is fair or nice.
However men usually dies 5 years earlier in average.
Things are different saying its not does not help.
Edge cases are not normal.
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Are either of you women ? This is seriously obnoxious to ask about on a first date and ignores the reality that many women such as myself , fortunately are quite fertile and capable of having children.
I’m sorry but a woman would not post this BS
I’m sorry but a woman would not post this BS
That's not how statistics work. Which is why the GP post was pointing out the absence of negatives when only selecting for positives. It is certainly something that is crass to bring up on a first date, and I would never, but it is a reality that many women face and they should be forewarned. Not by me, but by media, sex ed at school, other women.
I’m male. And I can’t imagine I would ask about it on a first date.
But if you’re up on fertility issues, it’s a legitimate concern. As people age, the rate of fertility success inevitably goes down, and the risks (e.g. Down syndrome) go up pretty dramatically.
Having frozen eggs greatly reduces those risks, and for an older man that wants kids, a potential wife with frozen eggs could mean a lot.
But if you’re up on fertility issues, it’s a legitimate concern. As people age, the rate of fertility success inevitably goes down, and the risks (e.g. Down syndrome) go up pretty dramatically.
Having frozen eggs greatly reduces those risks, and for an older man that wants kids, a potential wife with frozen eggs could mean a lot.
I agree it is a legitimate question. But a first date is not the place to ask it, as you say, and certainly not to keep prying when a woman says she's not ready to speak about something so personal. I do want to have children but I don't like being treated like a cow for breeding and that's certainly not how I treat men on my dates. This is exactly why I am looking for love and intimacy with someone before having children. If I JUST wanted to have kids, I could go to a sperm bank or ask a friend to lend some swimmers or have a one-night stand. I'm looking for a real, mutually beneficial partnership. And hopefully one of our shared values is having children.
I’ll give a counter example: married at 29, had only an ectopic pregnancy at 31 to show for our trouble, was diagnosed with low Anti-Müller hormone levels, never went the fertility assistance route because losing my mother to breast cancer put me off messing with my hormones. Decided around 38 to be content with my kind husband, comfortable life, travel, and lovely nieces and nephews.
Gave birth to our “happy accident” a few months after my 40th, chasing around a robustly normal, deviously clever near-two-year-old now.
Gave birth to our “happy accident” a few months after my 40th, chasing around a robustly normal, deviously clever near-two-year-old now.
I'm so sorry for the hard times you went through and so happy to hear about your happy accident! I hope you're enjoying your little two-year-old very much!!
You seem a little obnoxious!
I think men today are not as fertile as they used to be in Gen-X
I’ve given a couple of these guys lessons on women’s reproductive health :) hopefully it will benefit the next woman on bumble they meet !
You are one of my favorite new people codewriter
> one of the biggest turn-offs I’ve experienced from men is them asking me very specific questions about my fertility and the quality of my eggs even before we went on a first date or even via text BEFORE we met such as, and I kid you not, “how long ago did you freeze your eggs.” “Oh you want kids, are you planning to adopt ? Because , your age…” “ would you be willing to have kids before we got married, because your age…” again, via text before we even met.
Please don't take what I'm about to say as an attack on you; I'm going to describe the human condition that ALL of us suffer from, using your situation as an example.
What you've just described is the inverse of the kind of vibe you're giving off to potential partners, specifically: an ulterior motive. This is absolutely a turn-off because it gives the impression that the person is just secondary to the goal (a kind of "nice to have"). In your case, an incubator for their child, and in their case some sperm and 18 years of financial liability should it not work out and worst case you get full custody. When things fall apart, the war will be bitter and the one using the other will ruin both the child's and the ex-partner's life as they scorch the earth to fulfill their need.
So there is already conflict and ulterior motives on both sides, and you haven't even spoken yet! Not the best place to start from...
Nobody wants to be played for a fool; that's why you need a long dating process to suss out whether the other person is honorable and wants you for you, or is just using you to satisfy some need.
Ideally, you'd both be without ulterior motive when you start dating, but neither party has that option anymore because the clock is ticking. So you really do need to acknowledge the elephant in the room, and work together to come up with a solution/compromise that both can be satisfied with. These include:
- Not having children
- Freezing eggs
- Adopting
- Having children before dating (sperm donors)
Whichever route you're leaning towards, you're going to need to have a frank talk with any man you talk to about dating, and you'll need to have this conversation early, because BOTH of you are running low on time (you moreso than him), which breeds desperation. And desperation is a HUGE turn off unless you can both have a real, mature conversation about the reality you face, and decide whether you can work together or not. This is no easy task, which is why the dating process usually takes years. And you definitely DO NOT want to bring children into the picture until those years have been spent together. Anyone who tries to take short cuts in this part is being irresponsible, and that's a huge turn off. That's why you're disgusted by the behavior you mentioned.
TBH your most likely chance for success would be to agree to adopt, because then you gain the luxury of time again and could date in peace and really get to know each other without this nagging feeling that you're merely mr/ms Right Now. But any of those solutions still have a decent chance of success, so it's on you to decide what will be your plan A and plan B, and make sure anyone you date is on board with that.
The strongest signal you can give that you're a fit parent and partner is to demonstrate that you've thought this all through very carefully for the child's sake, and expect any potential partner to as well.
Good luck and godspeed!
Please don't take what I'm about to say as an attack on you; I'm going to describe the human condition that ALL of us suffer from, using your situation as an example.
What you've just described is the inverse of the kind of vibe you're giving off to potential partners, specifically: an ulterior motive. This is absolutely a turn-off because it gives the impression that the person is just secondary to the goal (a kind of "nice to have"). In your case, an incubator for their child, and in their case some sperm and 18 years of financial liability should it not work out and worst case you get full custody. When things fall apart, the war will be bitter and the one using the other will ruin both the child's and the ex-partner's life as they scorch the earth to fulfill their need.
So there is already conflict and ulterior motives on both sides, and you haven't even spoken yet! Not the best place to start from...
Nobody wants to be played for a fool; that's why you need a long dating process to suss out whether the other person is honorable and wants you for you, or is just using you to satisfy some need.
Ideally, you'd both be without ulterior motive when you start dating, but neither party has that option anymore because the clock is ticking. So you really do need to acknowledge the elephant in the room, and work together to come up with a solution/compromise that both can be satisfied with. These include:
- Not having children
- Freezing eggs
- Adopting
- Having children before dating (sperm donors)
Whichever route you're leaning towards, you're going to need to have a frank talk with any man you talk to about dating, and you'll need to have this conversation early, because BOTH of you are running low on time (you moreso than him), which breeds desperation. And desperation is a HUGE turn off unless you can both have a real, mature conversation about the reality you face, and decide whether you can work together or not. This is no easy task, which is why the dating process usually takes years. And you definitely DO NOT want to bring children into the picture until those years have been spent together. Anyone who tries to take short cuts in this part is being irresponsible, and that's a huge turn off. That's why you're disgusted by the behavior you mentioned.
TBH your most likely chance for success would be to agree to adopt, because then you gain the luxury of time again and could date in peace and really get to know each other without this nagging feeling that you're merely mr/ms Right Now. But any of those solutions still have a decent chance of success, so it's on you to decide what will be your plan A and plan B, and make sure anyone you date is on board with that.
The strongest signal you can give that you're a fit parent and partner is to demonstrate that you've thought this all through very carefully for the child's sake, and expect any potential partner to as well.
Good luck and godspeed!
Having children is not an "ulterior motive". It is a more important and honest motive than "eternal love" we have been conditioned by Hollywood to believe in.
Thank you. One hundred times yes.
Thanks so much for your kind words and encouragement.
I believe that gently asking someone if they're open to having kids on the third date or so is very different than aggressively asking a woman very specific questions and making generalizations about her reproductive health before you've even had a first date or on that first date, especially when the question was uninvited.
It is sad to me that so many people feel that I should hide my desire to have children because "it's a turn-off."
I feel that it's important to be honest and truthful with people.
I believe that gently asking someone if they're open to having kids on the third date or so is very different than aggressively asking a woman very specific questions and making generalizations about her reproductive health before you've even had a first date or on that first date, especially when the question was uninvited.
It is sad to me that so many people feel that I should hide my desire to have children because "it's a turn-off."
I feel that it's important to be honest and truthful with people.
I'm sorry, that's not what I was intending to say. I'm not finding the right words (and the English language sprinkles too many negative connotations on words that should be more neutral, without offering suitable alternatives).
Getting an agreement about having kids early on is absolutely a good thing. And those examples of aggressive questioning are absolutely a bad thing, morally speaking.
But I'm not talking about morality, rather, psychology. The landscape you find yourself in is not ideal to forming trusting relationships, which means that one must navigate much more carefully than someone in their twenties would. Not because you have anything shameful or things to hide (quite the opposite), but rather because there are many desperate people in similar situations who improperly court the idea that a little deception or trickery now can be made up for later. And in doing so they poison the well.
I also agree with you that being honest and up front about what your goals are is absolutely essential. After all, you're building a relationship, and its strength is directly proportional to the foundation of trust.
I guess all I can say in the end is: You're not doing anything wrong, but also that not everyone is the same. There are people out there who share your ideals and goals, and it's a matter of luck to meet them because all of the dating apps and services out there suck (I dealt with them before marrying someone I met in a completely different context and completely by chance and with no initial intent for a relationship, in my early 40s - go figure). I still don't envy your position, but I do wish you good fortune. Keep the faith.
Getting an agreement about having kids early on is absolutely a good thing. And those examples of aggressive questioning are absolutely a bad thing, morally speaking.
But I'm not talking about morality, rather, psychology. The landscape you find yourself in is not ideal to forming trusting relationships, which means that one must navigate much more carefully than someone in their twenties would. Not because you have anything shameful or things to hide (quite the opposite), but rather because there are many desperate people in similar situations who improperly court the idea that a little deception or trickery now can be made up for later. And in doing so they poison the well.
I also agree with you that being honest and up front about what your goals are is absolutely essential. After all, you're building a relationship, and its strength is directly proportional to the foundation of trust.
I guess all I can say in the end is: You're not doing anything wrong, but also that not everyone is the same. There are people out there who share your ideals and goals, and it's a matter of luck to meet them because all of the dating apps and services out there suck (I dealt with them before marrying someone I met in a completely different context and completely by chance and with no initial intent for a relationship, in my early 40s - go figure). I still don't envy your position, but I do wish you good fortune. Keep the faith.
Maybe she wants to rule out potentialy abusive partners this way. Someone who isn't sensible enough to mention such things on a first date raises too many flags. The fertility questions are already in abusive language territory even if they're well intended.
I think you may have misunderstood me: She is absolutely right in rejecting such interactions, because they betray a selfishness (in the bad sense) on his part, and good sensibility on her part to say no.
The point of my comment is to raise awareness of the overarching problem of ulterior motives no matter how benign in the end. At this late stage in the dating scene, almost EVERYONE will have it. And there is a certain ... "selfishness" isn't the right word (English is too morally blunt to describe this), but definitely need and time pressure on the part of people when it comes to dating for the ultimate goal of having a lasting relationship AND starting a family this late in the game. It's unavoidable that your motives get mixed and jumbled, so it's especially important to communicate this and not accidentally come off as "progeny first, you second".
I don't envy her or anyone in this position, because it's hard enough to communicate these when you ARE on the level and honorable, let alone trying to discern that from the selfish, abusive, whatnot people out there.
The point of my comment is to raise awareness of the overarching problem of ulterior motives no matter how benign in the end. At this late stage in the dating scene, almost EVERYONE will have it. And there is a certain ... "selfishness" isn't the right word (English is too morally blunt to describe this), but definitely need and time pressure on the part of people when it comes to dating for the ultimate goal of having a lasting relationship AND starting a family this late in the game. It's unavoidable that your motives get mixed and jumbled, so it's especially important to communicate this and not accidentally come off as "progeny first, you second".
I don't envy her or anyone in this position, because it's hard enough to communicate these when you ARE on the level and honorable, let alone trying to discern that from the selfish, abusive, whatnot people out there.
> dating for the ultimate goal of having a lasting relationship AND starting a family this late in the game
> I don't envy her or anyone in this position
Thank you for the follow up, but I'm afraid your tone is somewhat too assertive.
> I don't envy her or anyone in this position
Thank you for the follow up, but I'm afraid your tone is somewhat too assertive.
I’m a guy fwiw and think this is the best comment I’ve seen so far on the thread. Mostly because: I agree with it, think the advice/reasoning about ulterior motives and the luxury of time is wise, and lays out some good alternatives for OP.
Best of luck to the above poster and OP
Best of luck to the above poster and OP
I think that if a motivation to create a child with someone is expressed plainly and clearly, it is far from an ulterior motive. It's a genuine motive.
Ok. I’m not sure how me talking about wanting to have kids in this post spun into me telling every man on the first date that I’m desperate to have kids immediately. That’s obviously not something I would do. I might bring it up casually a couple dates in or put it on my dating profile. Seems like people are kind of making a stretch.
Most of what you said sounds totally reasonable but I don't understand how being turned off by men asking very specific questions and interrogating her about her fertility before they even met is an "ulterior motive"? Am I missing something here?
>And honestly, if I encountered a partner who's methodically researched dating with the goal of having kids ASAP, I'd be terrified of getting baby-trapped. The desperation is a colossal turn-off.
What alternative is there for a person who wants kids that is running out of time to have kids?
What alternative is there for a person who wants kids that is running out of time to have kids?
Lower your standards dramatically, like most men do.
But at some point, you need to accept some responsibility for why you don't have kids. A woman can literally go and attempt a pregnancy on any given day of the week.
Note that having kids is not the same as finding a man who wants to start a family with a 41-year old woman. That's just the reality of it.
But at some point, you need to accept some responsibility for why you don't have kids. A woman can literally go and attempt a pregnancy on any given day of the week.
Note that having kids is not the same as finding a man who wants to start a family with a 41-year old woman. That's just the reality of it.
I “need to accept responsibility for not having kids”?
How am I not accepting responsibility for not having kids?
How am I not accepting responsibility for not having kids?
I think what they are trying to say is that getting pregnant is easy. You could do it if you want to. It’s the finding a mate first that is making it difficult.
yes, that's true.
In non-western cultures, the primary goal of 'dating', if you can call it that is marriage, and the primary goal of marriage is to have kids.
Thank you! It is really strange to me that a woman talking about dating as a means to find a partner and children is such a "turn-off" and expresses "an ulterior motive"
I guess in some circles it's only acceptable to think about dating as a means to have sex? Very odd.
I guess in some circles it's only acceptable to think about dating as a means to have sex? Very odd.
There's a more charitable reading of the proper motive which aligns what you want: To be wanted for some essential thing about yourself.
Because in most non-Western countries it’s assumed that even a marriage solely meant for making children will never dissolve. Let alone the western divorce courts which are prone to leaving the man with no real access to their kids and 18 years of financial obligation to a woman who hates him. Divorce is how vast majority of western marriages end up in our modern times.
If you don’t internalise this simple reality you will not understand why those men behave towards you the way they do.
If you don’t internalise this simple reality you will not understand why those men behave towards you the way they do.
> My time for having children is running out.
> Please encouragement only, no discouragement. I’m discouraged enough already.
IMHO, that's exactly the problem. Bear with me for a sec.
Unless you find someone who has the exact same objective and wants to have kids asap (i.e., a more transactional relationship), this will always be a major turn off. Your partner will feel pressured to make a decision quickly, and sooner or later will think the main thing you want is their sperm to have a baby. That's a recipe for folks to back off. Even if you believe you're not putting pressure, I bet they can smell it a mile away. It has a direct impact on your mindset, your behavior, and self-confidence, even if you believe you're effective in masking it.
It may sound counter intuitive, but once you stop trying "to find someone to marry and have kids", you may actually find someone.
The first step is to start accepting yourself and your life as it is -- and being proud of being single and having no kids. It is what it is. Cut the bullshit of dating coaches, hundred dates, dozen of books, and all the mental energy you're wasting obsessing about it. Give up the serial dating, and immerse yourself in work, or a cause you care about, sports, gym, hobbies, church, or whatever suits your fancy. Sure, make new friends and go on dates, but not because you want to "find love and build a family", but because you want to have fun and enjoy having sex every now and then.
Once you do it - truly do it - you'll be seen as more attractive, more powerful, successful, confident, remarkable, independent. You won't need anyone on your side to be the best version of yourself. And there's nothing more f*ing attractive than that.
Pragmatically speaking, you've already frozen your eggs, so you have a plan B for later. For now, internalize that you are enough. Once you accept it, everything else will follow.
> Please encouragement only, no discouragement. I’m discouraged enough already.
IMHO, that's exactly the problem. Bear with me for a sec.
Unless you find someone who has the exact same objective and wants to have kids asap (i.e., a more transactional relationship), this will always be a major turn off. Your partner will feel pressured to make a decision quickly, and sooner or later will think the main thing you want is their sperm to have a baby. That's a recipe for folks to back off. Even if you believe you're not putting pressure, I bet they can smell it a mile away. It has a direct impact on your mindset, your behavior, and self-confidence, even if you believe you're effective in masking it.
It may sound counter intuitive, but once you stop trying "to find someone to marry and have kids", you may actually find someone.
The first step is to start accepting yourself and your life as it is -- and being proud of being single and having no kids. It is what it is. Cut the bullshit of dating coaches, hundred dates, dozen of books, and all the mental energy you're wasting obsessing about it. Give up the serial dating, and immerse yourself in work, or a cause you care about, sports, gym, hobbies, church, or whatever suits your fancy. Sure, make new friends and go on dates, but not because you want to "find love and build a family", but because you want to have fun and enjoy having sex every now and then.
Once you do it - truly do it - you'll be seen as more attractive, more powerful, successful, confident, remarkable, independent. You won't need anyone on your side to be the best version of yourself. And there's nothing more f*ing attractive than that.
Pragmatically speaking, you've already frozen your eggs, so you have a plan B for later. For now, internalize that you are enough. Once you accept it, everything else will follow.
I used to believe this kind of advice. However, I’ve actually spent quite a bit of time working on myself and coming to peace with my life as it is.
I think the everything will follow piece is a spiritual bypass that isn’t reflected in reality.
There are so many confident, beautiful , career-driven women who are in the same predicament as me.
I think that women are learning to take charge in every aspect of their lives. Why not relationships.
When I’m building my startup, no one says, sit back, be confident and the startup will grow itself.
Why shouldn’t it be that I can have a strategic goal in my life to have kids and a family and work towards achieving that in an active, not passive way ?
I think the everything will follow piece is a spiritual bypass that isn’t reflected in reality.
There are so many confident, beautiful , career-driven women who are in the same predicament as me.
I think that women are learning to take charge in every aspect of their lives. Why not relationships.
When I’m building my startup, no one says, sit back, be confident and the startup will grow itself.
Why shouldn’t it be that I can have a strategic goal in my life to have kids and a family and work towards achieving that in an active, not passive way ?
I'm not sure if I'm reading the previous comment and this one correctly, but it sounds like you're up front with your dates about what you want -- the monogamy, kids, etc. And that could work well, but... it also might not. It creates a feeling of pressure, which I'll try to explain:
Some time back, I was set up for a date with an absolutely amazing woman. She was attractive, fit, wealthy, worked as a CTO in a very successful and growing startup. I think she was on one of those Forbes lists. Also, out of my league, but she didn't seem to think so.
Anyway, we had a date, it went fine, and then she told me about her bucket list, all the cool ideas she'd had. Well, she'd already crossed off everything except "find a guy to have kids with". It was kind of a clever little way to drop what she wanted into conversation, and I thought she carried everything off with confidence and aplomb. She also let me know that she'd go out with me again.
I didn't ask for a second date. I still think about why from time to time. Nothing about her was wrong for my tastes -- all the success, intelligence, confidence, etc is attractive to me -- so why not carry on a bit further? The conclusion I came to was: I just felt like I'd be wasting her time. She told me exactly what she wanted, but I didn't have the same certainty. I didn't feel like I was a good inclusion to the plans of someone so focused and certain of her goals. She was also short on time to go ahead and get a family set up; what if I dated her for two, or four, or six months then decided that we weren't a perfect match? I'd feel guilty as hell, because I burned some extremely valuable time. So: better to bow out.
Anyway, that's all a long anecdote with no specific point or lesson, and unfortunately I don't know how it could have gone better for her. Your description of yourself just reminded me of that story, so I thought it might be of interest to hear a retrospective from "one of those guys".
Some time back, I was set up for a date with an absolutely amazing woman. She was attractive, fit, wealthy, worked as a CTO in a very successful and growing startup. I think she was on one of those Forbes lists. Also, out of my league, but she didn't seem to think so.
Anyway, we had a date, it went fine, and then she told me about her bucket list, all the cool ideas she'd had. Well, she'd already crossed off everything except "find a guy to have kids with". It was kind of a clever little way to drop what she wanted into conversation, and I thought she carried everything off with confidence and aplomb. She also let me know that she'd go out with me again.
I didn't ask for a second date. I still think about why from time to time. Nothing about her was wrong for my tastes -- all the success, intelligence, confidence, etc is attractive to me -- so why not carry on a bit further? The conclusion I came to was: I just felt like I'd be wasting her time. She told me exactly what she wanted, but I didn't have the same certainty. I didn't feel like I was a good inclusion to the plans of someone so focused and certain of her goals. She was also short on time to go ahead and get a family set up; what if I dated her for two, or four, or six months then decided that we weren't a perfect match? I'd feel guilty as hell, because I burned some extremely valuable time. So: better to bow out.
Anyway, that's all a long anecdote with no specific point or lesson, and unfortunately I don't know how it could have gone better for her. Your description of yourself just reminded me of that story, so I thought it might be of interest to hear a retrospective from "one of those guys".
100x this. Unless the OP finds someone with an equal drive to build a family and have kids now, 9 out of 10 guys will simply bail out before even trying. No one wants the risk of realizing later that you wasted OP's precious time, so better to not even try.
I have to confess that when I don't think a guy is a good fit for me, I really go heavy into my desire to get married and have kids soon. It's a really good way to avoid being asked on a second date and having to hurt someone's feelings.
Anyway, I think this woman missed out, because you are a great writer and seem to have a high opinion of women and really respect them.
Anyway, I think this woman missed out, because you are a great writer and seem to have a high opinion of women and really respect them.
That's a pretty funny strategy. Considering how smart my date was, I'm sure she was also aware enough to know the whole "kids now" thing might scare me off and said it anyway, in line with whatever her dating game theory was.
I have no idea if the following applies to you, so I won't even suggest it might. I'll just share some anecdata.
I'm male, married, with two beautiful, clever children and a beautiful, clever wife. The wife has a rich list of ambitions and expectations from life, more and more as time goes on. Model 21st century woman really. She's killing it at work, learning new sports, lifting weights, networking, recently joined a government expert panel, really nailing it.
The one thing she doesn't have time for is me. I'm just there, right? But between work, always keeping an eye for new, better jobs, taking the kids to ever more elaborate activities, I'm the washing machine of the relationship: it's essential that it's there, if it makes a funny noise you better fix it, but when it's just fine you don't think about it for 2 mins. She also doesn't seem to even acknowledge that there is a tradeoff made.
Tbh, and my wife isn't on HN, if not for the kids, I'd be well gone by now. For the kids, and the kids alone, I feel at least for now it's worth sticking to it.
So, long intro done, I'd now be very, very wary of people who have long and detailed expectations of life. It's not like I'm unambitious, underachieving or slouching on the sofa. But my expectations of life is more like, strive to be happy and do interesting, meaningful things. A career for the sake of career, for example, isn't on it.
The thing is, we are bombarded left right and centre (and women perhaps more so) with propaganda that this is the only way. If you're not aiming for a top career, doing 2 sports, yoga, learning Mandarin, focusing on yourself, oh and don't forget mindfulness, then you're cave-dwelling troglodyte. Thing is, that might just not leave space for an actual relationship, or at least sound that way.
I've heard this attitude labelled in certain circles as "men being afraid/threatened by modern women", but it's not that. It's about finding someone who want to genuinely make space for another person in their life, give something and get something. That is at odds with the widely acclaimed approach that life is there to take take take from.
I'm male, married, with two beautiful, clever children and a beautiful, clever wife. The wife has a rich list of ambitions and expectations from life, more and more as time goes on. Model 21st century woman really. She's killing it at work, learning new sports, lifting weights, networking, recently joined a government expert panel, really nailing it.
The one thing she doesn't have time for is me. I'm just there, right? But between work, always keeping an eye for new, better jobs, taking the kids to ever more elaborate activities, I'm the washing machine of the relationship: it's essential that it's there, if it makes a funny noise you better fix it, but when it's just fine you don't think about it for 2 mins. She also doesn't seem to even acknowledge that there is a tradeoff made.
Tbh, and my wife isn't on HN, if not for the kids, I'd be well gone by now. For the kids, and the kids alone, I feel at least for now it's worth sticking to it.
So, long intro done, I'd now be very, very wary of people who have long and detailed expectations of life. It's not like I'm unambitious, underachieving or slouching on the sofa. But my expectations of life is more like, strive to be happy and do interesting, meaningful things. A career for the sake of career, for example, isn't on it.
The thing is, we are bombarded left right and centre (and women perhaps more so) with propaganda that this is the only way. If you're not aiming for a top career, doing 2 sports, yoga, learning Mandarin, focusing on yourself, oh and don't forget mindfulness, then you're cave-dwelling troglodyte. Thing is, that might just not leave space for an actual relationship, or at least sound that way.
I've heard this attitude labelled in certain circles as "men being afraid/threatened by modern women", but it's not that. It's about finding someone who want to genuinely make space for another person in their life, give something and get something. That is at odds with the widely acclaimed approach that life is there to take take take from.
I think it's noble to stay in for the sake of your children.
One thought: perhaps it's obvious to you that your wife is ignoring you, but not obvious to her? Maybe she takes your calm, grounded presence in her life for granted and loves you deeply, not seeing how much you are suffering.
I'm curious to know the efforts you've made to communicate your concerns to her? Taking her out for a nice date night, couples therapy?
Perhaps your wife values you and your marriage much more than you realize and change is indeed possible.
Your kids will be fine, get out and live your life and be a positive strong influence on them. Think about what your kids see every day, the same things you described here. This becomes their model of a father, a family. Do you want that?
I am divorced with two beautiful teenage daughters from my current -happy- marriage and a 20 year old son from my first. My son not only understands why the divorce happened (dysfunctional relationship that made me feel miserable), but has admitted that seeing me happy and fulfilled has done wonders for his psychological development. He was 6 years old when I divorced my first wife.
I am divorced with two beautiful teenage daughters from my current -happy- marriage and a 20 year old son from my first. My son not only understands why the divorce happened (dysfunctional relationship that made me feel miserable), but has admitted that seeing me happy and fulfilled has done wonders for his psychological development. He was 6 years old when I divorced my first wife.
I recommend you go to personal counseling. Not group, or family. I think you really need someone to confide in to discuss your situation. At least try it once.
Woah thanks for sharing your situation. Talking about it to others sounds like a step in the right direction.
One thing to consider is what you are teaching your kids by staying. Kids have a habit of picking up on these things at an early age and can internalize the unhealthy relationship you have as ‘normal’.
One thing to consider is what you are teaching your kids by staying. Kids have a habit of picking up on these things at an early age and can internalize the unhealthy relationship you have as ‘normal’.
Have you spoken to your wife about this or gone to therapy together? Is she aware that she is neglecting you?
You’re correct though, it’s about priorities. I’m a corporate lawyer but I always put my husband first because at the end of the line I surely won’t be thinking, “I wish I worked more.” What’s it all for if you don’t have someone to share with.
You’re correct though, it’s about priorities. I’m a corporate lawyer but I always put my husband first because at the end of the line I surely won’t be thinking, “I wish I worked more.” What’s it all for if you don’t have someone to share with.
Live life with no regrets my friend. Also, what do you think your kids would have you do, were they grownups?
Also, maybe your wife needs the reality check?
Also, maybe your wife needs the reality check?
I love my kids without bounds, they are best served by two parents right now. The logistics of separated parent childcare, for now, outweigh the daily dredge of being a washing machine.
As for later, who knows. Somewhere between the age of 0 and 30, you don't need your parents to hold your hand when you have a nightmare, when that time comes I'll think again.
As for later, who knows. Somewhere between the age of 0 and 30, you don't need your parents to hold your hand when you have a nightmare, when that time comes I'll think again.
At what cost? At least if you ring the alarm bell early you could improve your situation if you attempt to stick it out (couples therapy etc), but resigning to being “a washing machine” sounds like a terrible plan for your life.
The mind finds excuses to propagate your situation because it is afraid of change, and I can see that very clear in your words about “logistics”. Logistics is not a good reason at all to live your life as a washing machine.
The mind finds excuses to propagate your situation because it is afraid of change, and I can see that very clear in your words about “logistics”. Logistics is not a good reason at all to live your life as a washing machine.
Yeah yeah, we've done couples therapy. Talked. Yada yada.
The thing is, i just love and prioritise my kids. It's also not like I'm not living a good life, just a good relationship isn't part of it.
The thing is, i just love and prioritise my kids. It's also not like I'm not living a good life, just a good relationship isn't part of it.
I get what you're saying. Lots of people here suppose you're unhappy and need to get out now. I don't think they have grounds to suppose that. You do you!
To awsrocks, im in the same situation. still sweating it out tbh.
How does your wife feel about your concerns? She doesn't care?
mail?
Yea you are going to be need to be very strategic since the dating pool is so tiny for your age and family desires.
Alot of men who wanted families don't want career women, or already have their own family.My brother is 35 with three kids oldest is 10. My other brother is 52 year old banker who married a 34 year old woman, and they have several kids now.
I think your desire for someone of equal education or financial background will make it nearly impossible.
Alot of men who wanted families don't want career women, or already have their own family.My brother is 35 with three kids oldest is 10. My other brother is 52 year old banker who married a 34 year old woman, and they have several kids now.
I think your desire for someone of equal education or financial background will make it nearly impossible.
Yikes!
All this talk about men being threatened by your career - eh, I really can't relate. I wouldn't focus or worry about that. I'd just recommend working to accept older male features: balding, dad bod, maybe not too tall, etc.
Have you read the story of Chris McKinlay hacking Okcupid? https://www.wired.com/2014/01/how-to-hack-okcupid/
Your post could be a personals ad of sorts but you stopped short of inviting readers to reach out directly and inquire about a date
Have you read the story of Chris McKinlay hacking Okcupid? https://www.wired.com/2014/01/how-to-hack-okcupid/
Your post could be a personals ad of sorts but you stopped short of inviting readers to reach out directly and inquire about a date
Maybe that’s the best idea yet :) and actually it looks like some dates might even come out of this post unexpectedly!!
Go where your target market is, startup 101.
Lol relationships shouldn't be looked at as "achievements" or something to put on a resume or require "work"/labor, at least good relationships. Going that route is gonna lead to many things lacking.
I mean go ahead with your plan, but if that's been your "strategy" for however long and you're still single and without the trophy kids, you're "strategy" is severely flawed and obviously not working.
I mean go ahead with your plan, but if that's been your "strategy" for however long and you're still single and without the trophy kids, you're "strategy" is severely flawed and obviously not working.
I certainly don't see a relationship or kids as an achievement or something to put on my resumé. Anyone who knows me knows how deeply I love my friends and want to share that love with an intimate partner. Anyone who knows me knows how much I care for children and would love to have my own to love.
Why does this translate as an achievement for a resumé rather than a heart longing?
Why does this translate as an achievement for a resumé rather than a heart longing?
Because it totally does sound like that. I mean your choice of words like "taking charge", being "strategic" about it, and then comparing it to building a startup. It sounds like you're treating it as something to calculate, work for, and acquire. Like do you want a cyborg, a prop, or a human being?
Just imagine that wording being on a dating profile. Yeah, you'd get some responses and sure, maybe it works out, but upon reading that I'd put money down and bet that it'd scare away a huge number of potential winners (min 30% compared to better wording). It's because it sounds too robotic, calculated, blueprint-like, and signals up-tight, controlling, another job to work at after coming home from their day job. The opposite is needed.
Guys get scared off when they hear things like that. It has nothing to do with a strong and empowered woman. It's got everything to do with affecting their freedom to be themselves, hang with their boys, and just not feel like they'd be put on a leash and treated like a prop. Guys, typically speaking, just want to be bros with whoever, regardless of gender, and just chill and not worry about being constrained.
Do what you want, but at least don't go by the advice you want to hear here. Go by what you need to hear here.
Just imagine that wording being on a dating profile. Yeah, you'd get some responses and sure, maybe it works out, but upon reading that I'd put money down and bet that it'd scare away a huge number of potential winners (min 30% compared to better wording). It's because it sounds too robotic, calculated, blueprint-like, and signals up-tight, controlling, another job to work at after coming home from their day job. The opposite is needed.
Guys get scared off when they hear things like that. It has nothing to do with a strong and empowered woman. It's got everything to do with affecting their freedom to be themselves, hang with their boys, and just not feel like they'd be put on a leash and treated like a prop. Guys, typically speaking, just want to be bros with whoever, regardless of gender, and just chill and not worry about being constrained.
Do what you want, but at least don't go by the advice you want to hear here. Go by what you need to hear here.
*When I’m building my startup, no one says, sit back, be confident and the startup will grow itself*
Maybe it’s because someone else’s feelings are involved too? And they may not want to be a pawn in your plan?
Maybe it’s because someone else’s feelings are involved too? And they may not want to be a pawn in your plan?
The idea that partners are not a means to an end is the last bitter pill to swallow before learning to love yourself.
Most importantly, you can’t love someone else until you love yourself.
You can be strategic about it. But the outcome of 'getting a partner' is not within anyone's control. You can only present the best version of yourself, but you can't control who will and won't like you.
We're only humans after all.
We're only humans after all.
> You can only present the best version of yourself, but you can't control who will and won't like you
if you want to listen to that advice - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1WiCGq-PcY&t=1s
if you want to listen to that advice - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1WiCGq-PcY&t=1s
Thanks for sharing this video with Bryan Cranston.
Funnily enough, I started my career as an actor before moving into entrepreneurship and eventually tech.
What rings true for me in this, is keeping your eye on what's most important to you, in my case, giving and receiving love, giving and receiving support and letting go of the outcome.
One of the benefits of dating a lot of people is you really do stop caring if the people like you or not, and let go of the outcome.
I've found that since I've adopted that approach, 90-95% of men asking me on a second date.
I'm not looking to them to validate me or fill a whole on my heart.
But dating a lot of people really helps with this.
You learn some people like you and you don't feel it's a fit.
You like some people and they don't feel it's a fit.
Every now and then you get the magic combination.
It's rare, but it can happen.
I completely agree.
So true.
Throwaway, because I'm going to say things that may not be all that kosher, but you asked for honest feedback, so here.
Additionally, you're asking some very nerdy nerds this advice on a Saturday of a long weekend. The population sample here is biased as hell.
Also, lets face it, men are pigs. And without a picture of you, we're all just guessing as to real reasons why. And, no, that doesn't mean I want a pic of you, please don't do that, please keep your privacy on HN. No pics.
Ok, that all said:
> I think that women are learning to take charge in every aspect of their lives. Why not relationships?
Men, bad as it is, don't want superwoman. Especially the men you're looking for in Austin. They want to take care of their woman and their families. I've read a few of your comments on here, but not all. And you come off as driven and very very smart. It's awesome.
That's generally a good thing, but likely not here based on your self reported failure.
Partnerships, sure. That's great. But men want to be men. And that mean the 3 P's: Provider, Protector, Procreator. If you have all three, you can be a 'real man' and participate in the great game of male honor. If you have only two Ps, you better be really good at them. If you only have one, you're not a real man and can't participate in male honor groups. Yeah, yeah, caveats all over the place. But, generally, you gotta have the three P's to be a 'real man'.
That you are a founder and a kick-ass, take-names, kinda gal is great. But it takes away the P of Provider part of being a man. Doing some real bad projection here, you likely make more than him, or will soon if all goes to plan. That means, to him, you're prospectively taking away some part of his manhood and honor. Also, he's likely reading into the reality that there just isn't a lot of time for another person in your life outside of your business. We all read here on HN how hard founder life is and how much of a time suck it is.
This one is less of an issue, maybe, I dunno. You mention crossfit and the like. That's awesome, you're doing a great job of working on your health and fitness. Keep doing that. But, depending on how big and fit you are, that takes away the P of Protector. He's not the person that can protect his family from the wolves at the cabin door. You both may be. That's awesome when wolves actually are at the cabin door. But he's trying to imagine his future with you, fantasize about what may be. Sharing that role of Protector may not be what he wants to fantasize about.
The last one is maybe the biggest issue and unfortunately the least changeable. The role of Procreator. You're 41. I'm not going to lie to you, the stats on procreation at as advanced maternal age as yourself are not the worst, but they are not the best either. Geriatric pregnancies like the one you are aiming to have come with a lot of risks and side effects on the child. That's pretty common knowledge. Men that you are looking for are aware that having children with you is a more risky proposition than with the, to borrow a baseball term, average replacement. Meaning that, clone you exactly but 10 years younger, it's less risk to go with the younger clone in terms of child health. I know, that's really pretty brutal. I'm sorry, it's fucking bullshit. But by being older than younger-clone-you, you essentially lessen the third P of Procreator.
So, what to do then?
Like I said, you have to have all three to be a real man, or be really good at at least two. I feel that you're pretty dead set on the Procreator role for your man. That's totally cool. I have kids too. They are awesome, more people should have them. They filled a hole in me that I wasn't aware that I had. But with your age, understand that means he's going to count that one as a 'less' role for himself. You need to build him up on the other two.
So for the Provider one, you kinda gotta aim for men that make more than you, are otherwise really good at hunting/fishing/outdoors stuff and take that really seriously, or are really good at scrapping, knowing the right people, grifting, etc. He's gotta feel like he's able to Provide for you, that you depend only on him for your future and your financial security. Because the P of Procreator is lessened, you have to heighten this one. Being a kick-ass start-up founder, yeah, this is going to be a tough one for you to navigate. Honestly, I'd go for the outdoorsy types as the financial stuff is going to be messy. You can kinda let this P be a 'less' overall, but not as much as the Procreator one.
So, for the Protector one, as I said at the start, you gotta drop the handkerchief. I think this is the one you can have the most success with. Be more of a damsel in distress for him. Yeah, I know, it's not the most modern-orthodox idea. But you need to build these men up as being able to take the role of Protector as the main role for them in the realtionship. You have to make him feel really truly huge as a Protector for you. Aim for the bulkier gym rat guys, maybe veterans or active duty men that can 'Provide/r' a really good healthcare and retirement plan, and again the outdoorsy hunters with lot of guns. You're in Austin, there are a lot of gun start-ups there, take advantage of that. Talk up how unsafe you feel about town, how your ex was abusive or something, how you really like a guy that can take care of you in a fight. Strange as it sounds, be easily startled.
In short, drop the handkerchief. I think it's your best bet.
Best of luck! I hope all goes well and I look forward to seeing a post on here from you about how it all turned out great! You got this girl!
Additionally, you're asking some very nerdy nerds this advice on a Saturday of a long weekend. The population sample here is biased as hell.
Also, lets face it, men are pigs. And without a picture of you, we're all just guessing as to real reasons why. And, no, that doesn't mean I want a pic of you, please don't do that, please keep your privacy on HN. No pics.
Ok, that all said:
> I think that women are learning to take charge in every aspect of their lives. Why not relationships?
Men, bad as it is, don't want superwoman. Especially the men you're looking for in Austin. They want to take care of their woman and their families. I've read a few of your comments on here, but not all. And you come off as driven and very very smart. It's awesome.
That's generally a good thing, but likely not here based on your self reported failure.
Partnerships, sure. That's great. But men want to be men. And that mean the 3 P's: Provider, Protector, Procreator. If you have all three, you can be a 'real man' and participate in the great game of male honor. If you have only two Ps, you better be really good at them. If you only have one, you're not a real man and can't participate in male honor groups. Yeah, yeah, caveats all over the place. But, generally, you gotta have the three P's to be a 'real man'.
That you are a founder and a kick-ass, take-names, kinda gal is great. But it takes away the P of Provider part of being a man. Doing some real bad projection here, you likely make more than him, or will soon if all goes to plan. That means, to him, you're prospectively taking away some part of his manhood and honor. Also, he's likely reading into the reality that there just isn't a lot of time for another person in your life outside of your business. We all read here on HN how hard founder life is and how much of a time suck it is.
This one is less of an issue, maybe, I dunno. You mention crossfit and the like. That's awesome, you're doing a great job of working on your health and fitness. Keep doing that. But, depending on how big and fit you are, that takes away the P of Protector. He's not the person that can protect his family from the wolves at the cabin door. You both may be. That's awesome when wolves actually are at the cabin door. But he's trying to imagine his future with you, fantasize about what may be. Sharing that role of Protector may not be what he wants to fantasize about.
The last one is maybe the biggest issue and unfortunately the least changeable. The role of Procreator. You're 41. I'm not going to lie to you, the stats on procreation at as advanced maternal age as yourself are not the worst, but they are not the best either. Geriatric pregnancies like the one you are aiming to have come with a lot of risks and side effects on the child. That's pretty common knowledge. Men that you are looking for are aware that having children with you is a more risky proposition than with the, to borrow a baseball term, average replacement. Meaning that, clone you exactly but 10 years younger, it's less risk to go with the younger clone in terms of child health. I know, that's really pretty brutal. I'm sorry, it's fucking bullshit. But by being older than younger-clone-you, you essentially lessen the third P of Procreator.
So, what to do then?
Like I said, you have to have all three to be a real man, or be really good at at least two. I feel that you're pretty dead set on the Procreator role for your man. That's totally cool. I have kids too. They are awesome, more people should have them. They filled a hole in me that I wasn't aware that I had. But with your age, understand that means he's going to count that one as a 'less' role for himself. You need to build him up on the other two.
So for the Provider one, you kinda gotta aim for men that make more than you, are otherwise really good at hunting/fishing/outdoors stuff and take that really seriously, or are really good at scrapping, knowing the right people, grifting, etc. He's gotta feel like he's able to Provide for you, that you depend only on him for your future and your financial security. Because the P of Procreator is lessened, you have to heighten this one. Being a kick-ass start-up founder, yeah, this is going to be a tough one for you to navigate. Honestly, I'd go for the outdoorsy types as the financial stuff is going to be messy. You can kinda let this P be a 'less' overall, but not as much as the Procreator one.
So, for the Protector one, as I said at the start, you gotta drop the handkerchief. I think this is the one you can have the most success with. Be more of a damsel in distress for him. Yeah, I know, it's not the most modern-orthodox idea. But you need to build these men up as being able to take the role of Protector as the main role for them in the realtionship. You have to make him feel really truly huge as a Protector for you. Aim for the bulkier gym rat guys, maybe veterans or active duty men that can 'Provide/r' a really good healthcare and retirement plan, and again the outdoorsy hunters with lot of guns. You're in Austin, there are a lot of gun start-ups there, take advantage of that. Talk up how unsafe you feel about town, how your ex was abusive or something, how you really like a guy that can take care of you in a fight. Strange as it sounds, be easily startled.
In short, drop the handkerchief. I think it's your best bet.
Best of luck! I hope all goes well and I look forward to seeing a post on here from you about how it all turned out great! You got this girl!
I’m sorry but I find this overly simplified psychological model of men quite demeaning. Sure you will find men who do fit this model, but why the hell would you want to?
You are essentially asking op to change who she is to fit into an outdated model of the world.
Moreover the person she finds will likely be completely incompatible for her and even abusive toward her.
This is bad advice
You are essentially asking op to change who she is to fit into an outdated model of the world.
Moreover the person she finds will likely be completely incompatible for her and even abusive toward her.
This is bad advice
Thanks for the feedback!
The 3Ps model comes from Gilmore's 1991 book Manhood in the Making: Cultural Concepts of Masculinity. It's a dense read and very well researched. The 3Ps comes out of the studies on male honor and that culture and how they are all linked together. Very few societies do not have male honor cultures. And yes, not all males participate in their honor culture, but as a consequence they are not considered 'real men' in their culture. The culture of men in Texas very much has the 3Ps defining a 'real man'.
https://www.amazon.com/Manhood-Making-Cultural-Concepts-Masc...
As for asking OP to change, welp, yeah. I mean, she's literally asking HN what she needs to change to get a man to settle with her.
I don't see why they would be abusive at all. The Protector role is the literal opposite of that. A 'real man' protects his family and loved ones, he does not harm them. This is in part why wife-beaters and child abusers are so reviled in the culture and courts of Texas.
Hopefully the book will be a good summer read for you. Thanks again!
The 3Ps model comes from Gilmore's 1991 book Manhood in the Making: Cultural Concepts of Masculinity. It's a dense read and very well researched. The 3Ps comes out of the studies on male honor and that culture and how they are all linked together. Very few societies do not have male honor cultures. And yes, not all males participate in their honor culture, but as a consequence they are not considered 'real men' in their culture. The culture of men in Texas very much has the 3Ps defining a 'real man'.
https://www.amazon.com/Manhood-Making-Cultural-Concepts-Masc...
As for asking OP to change, welp, yeah. I mean, she's literally asking HN what she needs to change to get a man to settle with her.
I don't see why they would be abusive at all. The Protector role is the literal opposite of that. A 'real man' protects his family and loved ones, he does not harm them. This is in part why wife-beaters and child abusers are so reviled in the culture and courts of Texas.
Hopefully the book will be a good summer read for you. Thanks again!
A man can have honor and represent amicable qualities: wanting to provide and protect - nothing wrong with that, but if a man has a problem with a woman being a provider or protector then thats a recipe for disaster. You shouldn’t have to make yourself appear weak so that a man is attracted to you.
Its better to filter out people who don’t accept you for who you are rather than bend over backwards to try to appease someone. If you are a kickass woman entrepreneur then lean into that and find someone who admires that quality in you.
In regards to the potentially abusive situation, let me elaborate: If a man needs a woman to be weaker than him, in my mind that is toxic and potentially abusive. Best filter these people out from the beginning by being honest with yourself and them
Its better to filter out people who don’t accept you for who you are rather than bend over backwards to try to appease someone. If you are a kickass woman entrepreneur then lean into that and find someone who admires that quality in you.
In regards to the potentially abusive situation, let me elaborate: If a man needs a woman to be weaker than him, in my mind that is toxic and potentially abusive. Best filter these people out from the beginning by being honest with yourself and them
Interesting! Any knowledge of a corresponding female social phenomenon being similarly characterized?
Thank you for your kind and encouraging post!
I’d be curious to hear from men here if they identify with this and feel un attracted to a woman providing for herself.
Many thanks again for your thoughts and being positive and affirming .
I’d be curious to hear from men here if they identify with this and feel un attracted to a woman providing for herself.
Many thanks again for your thoughts and being positive and affirming .
I can’t relate to this “three Ps” thing at all. I just want a partner who is deep thinking (most important), reasonably kind, and reasonably good looking.
I couldn’t give two shits about some weird notion of being a provider or a protector. Income, strength? It doesn’t come into the equation for me. But then, I also don’t have a strong need to be a procreator.
I have no success dating due to my own seemingly excessive standards (almost impossible to find deep thinkers) so I can’t give any advice on that front.
But you shouldn’t rule out being a single mother, because I suspect you’d regret that once it’s no longer possible.
I couldn’t give two shits about some weird notion of being a provider or a protector. Income, strength? It doesn’t come into the equation for me. But then, I also don’t have a strong need to be a procreator.
I have no success dating due to my own seemingly excessive standards (almost impossible to find deep thinkers) so I can’t give any advice on that front.
But you shouldn’t rule out being a single mother, because I suspect you’d regret that once it’s no longer possible.
I find women who cannot provide for themselves unattractive.
I was brought up by 2 working parents and all my siblings are working professionals; I expect my partner to "pull her weight". Damsel's in distress are a huge turn-off for me,and having that imbalance feels icky and transactional on some level - to me.
But I know men who exclusively date women with lower academic qualifications than them, because they want that income gradient/clear pecking-order.
I was brought up by 2 working parents and all my siblings are working professionals; I expect my partner to "pull her weight". Damsel's in distress are a huge turn-off for me,and having that imbalance feels icky and transactional on some level - to me.
But I know men who exclusively date women with lower academic qualifications than them, because they want that income gradient/clear pecking-order.
It's utter nonsense. It's typical HN, a long winded extremely confident post about something that the commenter clearly doesn't understand half as well as they think they do.
> I’d be curious to hear from men here if they identify with this and feel un attracted to a woman providing for herself.
No, I don’t identify in the slightest. The opposite is true. I find interest in someone who can be a partner in the true sense of the word. We should strive to improve each other and remain together by choice, because we’re happy, not because one of us has a small ego and the other is incapable of being independent. What a boring scenario.
That said, I don’t doubt it does happen. A friend has told me of a man she dated who couldn’t get over the fact she earned more than him. Unsurprisingly, they didn’t last. She’s much happier now, in a healthy relationship.
Is finding someone so important that you’d consider presenting as someone you are not? Sounds like a recipe to attract a partner you’d regret choosing.
No, I don’t identify in the slightest. The opposite is true. I find interest in someone who can be a partner in the true sense of the word. We should strive to improve each other and remain together by choice, because we’re happy, not because one of us has a small ego and the other is incapable of being independent. What a boring scenario.
That said, I don’t doubt it does happen. A friend has told me of a man she dated who couldn’t get over the fact she earned more than him. Unsurprisingly, they didn’t last. She’s much happier now, in a healthy relationship.
Is finding someone so important that you’d consider presenting as someone you are not? Sounds like a recipe to attract a partner you’d regret choosing.
Dated women who were way more successful than me. Wasn't a problem at all. It'd only be a problem if a guy has no confidence.
Personally, I think you just need to give up (that's what I did) and just learn to be okay with the things the way they are now. It either will happen or not. You just cannot force these things.
Also (probably not such a great advice) but maybe you just need to go to a bar and meet a guy who is a little bit of an asshole..?
Personally, I think you just need to give up (that's what I did) and just learn to be okay with the things the way they are now. It either will happen or not. You just cannot force these things.
Also (probably not such a great advice) but maybe you just need to go to a bar and meet a guy who is a little bit of an asshole..?
I'm very into women who can provide for themselves, and potentially me (and I them) in case we need to lean on each other.
But I also 100% don't want to make kids, so probably not your target audience.
I'd actually be open to the idea of raising kids, parenting, adopting, etc., I just don't want to make them.
Not offering myself, but it's entirely possible there are men with similar preferences (or who had a vasectomy, etc.).. are you overlooking them as possible matches? Because you could have your relationship and your kids, and if there's no pressure on being the bio-dad within any time-frame, maybe that takes pressure off relationship candidates also
But I also 100% don't want to make kids, so probably not your target audience.
I'd actually be open to the idea of raising kids, parenting, adopting, etc., I just don't want to make them.
Not offering myself, but it's entirely possible there are men with similar preferences (or who had a vasectomy, etc.).. are you overlooking them as possible matches? Because you could have your relationship and your kids, and if there's no pressure on being the bio-dad within any time-frame, maybe that takes pressure off relationship candidates also
Based on my own - very Eurocentric - experience, and my circle of friends, relationships where only one part is the provider all failed (to reiterate: not all of them fail, just the relationship of people I personally know/friends of friends). It was about the money. Once one party starts to feel that the other is spending “their” money, the wheels come off. Maybe it worked better when divorce was frowned upon.
As for the protector… it does not matter how buff you are, in 99% of the time your average male will still be more able to fight off a physical threat. But yes, there are men who feel inferior because of being less fit. And there are men, who will applaud it and have no trouble lifting less weight than you. Guess who is more self confident…
About the procreation: that one I could imagine. If you want to badly have kids as a man, or want to badly leave that option for the future, you’d probably pick a spouse with enough “runway”. But there are also many guys who rather enjoy the money and don’t want kids.
As for the protector… it does not matter how buff you are, in 99% of the time your average male will still be more able to fight off a physical threat. But yes, there are men who feel inferior because of being less fit. And there are men, who will applaud it and have no trouble lifting less weight than you. Guess who is more self confident…
About the procreation: that one I could imagine. If you want to badly have kids as a man, or want to badly leave that option for the future, you’d probably pick a spouse with enough “runway”. But there are also many guys who rather enjoy the money and don’t want kids.
It’s bad advice and maybe the rantings of a lunatic. Act like a damsel in distress? I don’t think I can read that twice without losing my vision. And the 3 P’s? C’mon. I have army special forces friends that make less than their wives and are childless, I don’t get the impression that they don’t feel like ‘real men’.
I would not mind my wife earning more than I do… she doesn’t but I wish she would (I was simply lucky enough to be passionate about something that pay well)! To be honest I think she put way more effort in her job than I do in mine! On the other hand my mother is richer than my father (they both are very wealthy but she is the wealthier) and was never an issue for them (still happily married at 72yo)
The women not providing for herself being attractive seems like bullshit.
It's a lot easier to build a future with someone who makes good money.
Maybe as a gay man my advice doesn't fit here, but that is not my experience at all. Gay couples work nicely even if they both earn similar income and there is no "provider".
i don't identify with this at all, but keep in mind, HN is not your average demographic. a lot of people here earn a lot themselves, so of course a partner with a good income is not going to make them uncomfortable.
I think it’s an outdated perspective.
I would never marry a woman that can’t provide for herself, and I think it would be amazing if she earns more than me.
However, I don’t think it’s completely wrong, men do want to feel needed somehow.
You seems so perfect and the only thing missing in your life it’s a child. That’s not a good advertisement.
Let men feel needed and tell them that, ask for their help and their opinion. If a guy is real computer nerd, let him help with your IT related issues, and sure, you could probably pay someone to do it better, but the point is to let people/men feel as part of your life.
What is missing in your life beside a child?
Are you too serious? Look for a funny guy that can make you laugh.
Are you too healthy maniac? Look for a guy that can sometimes push you to really tasty food, but not healthy.
Are you too impulsive? Look for a guy that keep you grounded.
And let them know how they complete you!
I would never marry a woman that can’t provide for herself, and I think it would be amazing if she earns more than me.
However, I don’t think it’s completely wrong, men do want to feel needed somehow.
You seems so perfect and the only thing missing in your life it’s a child. That’s not a good advertisement.
Let men feel needed and tell them that, ask for their help and their opinion. If a guy is real computer nerd, let him help with your IT related issues, and sure, you could probably pay someone to do it better, but the point is to let people/men feel as part of your life.
What is missing in your life beside a child?
Are you too serious? Look for a funny guy that can make you laugh.
Are you too healthy maniac? Look for a guy that can sometimes push you to really tasty food, but not healthy.
Are you too impulsive? Look for a guy that keep you grounded.
And let them know how they complete you!
It describes a significant portion of your target market.
This is probably over generic, putting all men in the same bucket.
Some of us find career driven, go get it attitude attractive. It all depends on how grounded you are.
Some of us find career driven, go get it attitude attractive. It all depends on how grounded you are.
very well written. thank you!
two thoughts that came up:
- your 3 Ps sounds like a lot like I imaging older generations (older than me, mid20). Do you think this is changing with newer generations? As you said, this all is pretty much bullshit...
- From what OP said, she's more on the intellectual side. Men (or human in general) on this side might be more open and doesn't follow the cave man 'uga-uga' mentality
two thoughts that came up:
- your 3 Ps sounds like a lot like I imaging older generations (older than me, mid20). Do you think this is changing with newer generations? As you said, this all is pretty much bullshit...
- From what OP said, she's more on the intellectual side. Men (or human in general) on this side might be more open and doesn't follow the cave man 'uga-uga' mentality
Thanks!
To answer your ?s and speak to your comment:
- Short answer: Probably never. The 3Ps theory is well established in academic masculinist studies. A good overview of the 3Ps comes from Gilmore's 1991 book Manhood in the Making: Cultural Concepts of Masculinity if you want to learn more. Very briefly, all males conform to these Ps to participate in male honor. Yes, many males do not, but they are then without honor, and therefore considered not 'real' men in their culture. Honor is redefined here to encompass more than just the classical concept and is more a pan-male term, it gets a bit wonky. Man is also generally defined as 'not a boy', not 'not a woman'(sorry for all the nots here). The book does a much better job at introducing the ideas than a little HN comment could. In the end, I fail to see how any generation is going to escape ~200,000 years of human history. I could be very very wrong though!
https://www.amazon.com/Manhood-Making-Cultural-Concepts-Masc...
- It's not caveman, it's a theory of how men work in their culture and in almost all cultures we know of (the book goes into the exceptions and how they 'prove the rule' essentially). In the culture of Texas, 'real men' possess these three Ps, or at least have 2 Ps in above average amounts. HN isn't the best place to really dive into it, as most of the men here have above average Provider traits due to the income from tech jobs. It kinda blinds them to men that have to rely on the Protector and Procreator roles for their honor. I want to stress, Provider is not just income.
OP being a selector, and not a selectee, changes the equation a lot, of course. However, understanding the psychology of the men she is dating and their need of the 3Ps may help her address why her strategy is failing. Fluffing up the Protector role, or choosing men that have a lot of strengths in that role, may lead to more success.
To answer your ?s and speak to your comment:
- Short answer: Probably never. The 3Ps theory is well established in academic masculinist studies. A good overview of the 3Ps comes from Gilmore's 1991 book Manhood in the Making: Cultural Concepts of Masculinity if you want to learn more. Very briefly, all males conform to these Ps to participate in male honor. Yes, many males do not, but they are then without honor, and therefore considered not 'real' men in their culture. Honor is redefined here to encompass more than just the classical concept and is more a pan-male term, it gets a bit wonky. Man is also generally defined as 'not a boy', not 'not a woman'(sorry for all the nots here). The book does a much better job at introducing the ideas than a little HN comment could. In the end, I fail to see how any generation is going to escape ~200,000 years of human history. I could be very very wrong though!
https://www.amazon.com/Manhood-Making-Cultural-Concepts-Masc...
- It's not caveman, it's a theory of how men work in their culture and in almost all cultures we know of (the book goes into the exceptions and how they 'prove the rule' essentially). In the culture of Texas, 'real men' possess these three Ps, or at least have 2 Ps in above average amounts. HN isn't the best place to really dive into it, as most of the men here have above average Provider traits due to the income from tech jobs. It kinda blinds them to men that have to rely on the Protector and Procreator roles for their honor. I want to stress, Provider is not just income.
OP being a selector, and not a selectee, changes the equation a lot, of course. However, understanding the psychology of the men she is dating and their need of the 3Ps may help her address why her strategy is failing. Fluffing up the Protector role, or choosing men that have a lot of strengths in that role, may lead to more success.
If both you and your wife have good jobs I doubt you would be considered a less honorable man then if you had the same good job and your wife had a shitty one.
marrgTA says >...make him feel really truly huge as a Protector ... Aim for the bulkier gym rat guys, maybe veterans or active duty men that can 'Provide/r' a really good healthcare and retirement plan, and again the outdoorsy hunters .... You're in Austin, ... lot of gun start-ups there... Talk up how unsafe you feel ... how your ex was abusive ... you really like a guy that can take care of you in a fight. ... be easily startled.<
Bad advice, badly misinformed, all around. And lying to your intended is not a good recommendation:
- Crime in Austin is down and the town is incredibly left-leaning despite being in Texas. Your real problem is finding a single heterosexual male willing to procreate who has matching political views (unless you don't mind the difference),
- "Lot of gun start-ups there (Austin)" - incredible!
- The likelihood of getting in a fight in Austin, indeed, most anywhere, is slim: talking about such marks you as paranoid. [Chicago, maybe less paranoid!]. And, as everyone knows, in Texas we don't fight - we shoot each other [just joking!]. But again, pretending to fear a fight is lying.
That aside, my one question to you is why aren't you married yet - why have you rejected those men you've met who are willing to marry?
And finally, consider:
- moving to Utah (where everyone will make it their task to find you a suitable partner - they're very good at this and the Mormons are wonderful people). And Utah is a fantastic place to raise children. Hard to get good coffee there sometimes though.
- dating foreign nationals who need citizenship. Many would be surprised and pleased that you want to have children. [OTOH they might worry about your age (or their mother would!8-)).]
Bad advice, badly misinformed, all around. And lying to your intended is not a good recommendation:
- Crime in Austin is down and the town is incredibly left-leaning despite being in Texas. Your real problem is finding a single heterosexual male willing to procreate who has matching political views (unless you don't mind the difference),
- "Lot of gun start-ups there (Austin)" - incredible!
- The likelihood of getting in a fight in Austin, indeed, most anywhere, is slim: talking about such marks you as paranoid. [Chicago, maybe less paranoid!]. And, as everyone knows, in Texas we don't fight - we shoot each other [just joking!]. But again, pretending to fear a fight is lying.
That aside, my one question to you is why aren't you married yet - why have you rejected those men you've met who are willing to marry?
And finally, consider:
- moving to Utah (where everyone will make it their task to find you a suitable partner - they're very good at this and the Mormons are wonderful people). And Utah is a fantastic place to raise children. Hard to get good coffee there sometimes though.
- dating foreign nationals who need citizenship. Many would be surprised and pleased that you want to have children. [OTOH they might worry about your age (or their mother would!8-)).]
> Why shouldn’t it be that I can have a strategic goal in my life to have kids and a family and work towards achieving that in an active, not passive way ?
How’s that working out for you?
How’s that working out for you?
As desperate and defeated as my post does sound, actually rather well.
When I stopped sitting in my room complaining about friends about how I was single, I started getting on dating apps.
I enjoyed some lovely kisses, a few intimate moments and eventually met my first boyfriend.
I haven't met my husband yet, but I've definitely experienced that I'm living IN the world and moving closer to what I want instead of staying frozen and feeling a victim of circumstance.
If I didn't have hope, I would never have posted something so personal in such a public format.
And I've actually gotten a lot of great advice!
That is being strategic. Part of being strategic is seeking feedback.
Furthermore, I've learned from dating what I'm seeking is rare.
And I've gotten greater clarity on what I want.
That was a huge learning, and it came from seeking feedback.
I've learned I'm desirable and that's improved my self-confidence.
That came from finding an accountability partner and actually going on dates.
I've learned that a happy marriage is hard to find and it might take a lot of work. And that's given me inspiration.
That's come from being strategic.
I've learned that to get better matches on dating apps, you need great photos.
That's strategy.
I believe that knowledge is power. Women can have power over their lives and don't need to sit in their rooms and wait for prince charming to ride up on his horse.
Men are extremely strategic in how they date.
Many treat it like a sales funnel.
I don't agree about thinking about love like sales.
But I do think it's good to reflect and improve your strategy to find what you want.
And I think in this case, what I want is a good thing.
And something it's OK to long for. Not something, as some in this channel would suggest, is an "ulterior motive" or "makes me appear needy" or in some way suggests that I view men as a commodity to bear my "trophy kids."
If men are strategic about dating, why shouldn't women do the same?
You seem very smart and thoughtful. As you’ve asked for opinions, I’ll give you mine… the thing I’ve noticed missing in your posts in this thread (and if I missed it, forgive me) is mention of love.
Instead, you seem quite and transactional and check-list oriented.
Has there not been a man you’ve met for whom you’ve simply fallen head over heels in love? A man that suddenly makes all your strategic-thinking utterly irrelevant? I have no tips for how to find such a guy. But, I would bet that IF you find your soulmate, it will come out of the blue and, perhaps, he’ll meet very very few of your criteria. And, you won’t care in the slightest as you will have found in him a host of qualities that you suddenly realize you can’t live without.
Good luck.
Practical advice? Stay off the apps… I’ll risk the downvotes by saying the obvious: you don’t want the kind of guy who uses dating apps. You want the kind of guy you bump into in person, walking the dog.
In short, find a guy your attracted to, and flirt. It’s your superpower as a woman: regrettably, most women seem to have no idea how much control they have in finding a mate. Your last line about men being strategic in dating is wrong. We are not. Instead, most men are just waiting and hoping and praying that a woman will smile at them and start a flirtatious conversation.
*edit*I don’t think I was clear. Your problem isn’t getting dates… I get that. You probably know how to flirt quite well. I guess what I’m saying is that once you have the guy, make it romantic. Your superpower (more downvotes incoming) is your ability (and most women’s ability) to make a guy do whatever you want. Hell, many guys are dead-set against getting married… until I woman gets them to completely change their mind. It’s cliche in fact. You don’t need to find a guy who wants kids, in other words; you need only find a guy who wants to make you happy. Once you find that guy, you’re set— his pre-you opinions, goals, dreams, and sometimes even religion, is irrelevant at that point… we’re quite malleable, you know, and not nearly as set in our ways or strategic as you might think.
Instead, you seem quite and transactional and check-list oriented.
Has there not been a man you’ve met for whom you’ve simply fallen head over heels in love? A man that suddenly makes all your strategic-thinking utterly irrelevant? I have no tips for how to find such a guy. But, I would bet that IF you find your soulmate, it will come out of the blue and, perhaps, he’ll meet very very few of your criteria. And, you won’t care in the slightest as you will have found in him a host of qualities that you suddenly realize you can’t live without.
Good luck.
Practical advice? Stay off the apps… I’ll risk the downvotes by saying the obvious: you don’t want the kind of guy who uses dating apps. You want the kind of guy you bump into in person, walking the dog.
In short, find a guy your attracted to, and flirt. It’s your superpower as a woman: regrettably, most women seem to have no idea how much control they have in finding a mate. Your last line about men being strategic in dating is wrong. We are not. Instead, most men are just waiting and hoping and praying that a woman will smile at them and start a flirtatious conversation.
*edit*I don’t think I was clear. Your problem isn’t getting dates… I get that. You probably know how to flirt quite well. I guess what I’m saying is that once you have the guy, make it romantic. Your superpower (more downvotes incoming) is your ability (and most women’s ability) to make a guy do whatever you want. Hell, many guys are dead-set against getting married… until I woman gets them to completely change their mind. It’s cliche in fact. You don’t need to find a guy who wants kids, in other words; you need only find a guy who wants to make you happy. Once you find that guy, you’re set— his pre-you opinions, goals, dreams, and sometimes even religion, is irrelevant at that point… we’re quite malleable, you know, and not nearly as set in our ways or strategic as you might think.
Because building a startup is unfortunately an entirely different endeavor from finding a mate. Otherwise successful entrepreneurs would always have happy home lives, and we all know that’s not the case.
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thrown_22(1)
Dating is only one way to find someone, it's definitely not the only way.
I'm not American and nobody I know in a committed relationship, not a single one (even the Americans I know), met their partner through dating (where I'm defining "dating" as meeting with strangers or near-strangers with the intent of evaluating a possible romantic connection).
For the most part, my own relationship and the relationships around me started as friendships. People encounter others organically, through some hobby, club, group, event with a mutual friend or something like that. They talk a bit, they (platonically) like each other, they (platonically) hang out just because they enjoy each other's company.
Only after properly getting to know each other (think years, not weeks or months) is romance considered.
So I'd suggest that instead of going broad but incredibly shallow with over a hundred meetings with strangers, try going narrow but deep. Try to make a few male friends that you know and feel comfortable with and see if you find yourself wanting more from any of them.
Even if you don't find romance from any of them, you end up with more friends. They likely have friends of their own that you can also befriend and the cycle continues.
I'm not American and nobody I know in a committed relationship, not a single one (even the Americans I know), met their partner through dating (where I'm defining "dating" as meeting with strangers or near-strangers with the intent of evaluating a possible romantic connection).
For the most part, my own relationship and the relationships around me started as friendships. People encounter others organically, through some hobby, club, group, event with a mutual friend or something like that. They talk a bit, they (platonically) like each other, they (platonically) hang out just because they enjoy each other's company.
Only after properly getting to know each other (think years, not weeks or months) is romance considered.
So I'd suggest that instead of going broad but incredibly shallow with over a hundred meetings with strangers, try going narrow but deep. Try to make a few male friends that you know and feel comfortable with and see if you find yourself wanting more from any of them.
Even if you don't find romance from any of them, you end up with more friends. They likely have friends of their own that you can also befriend and the cycle continues.
I am going to do this. I intuitively feel that this is the right path forward for me. Kissing someone I just met oj a dating app is super weird and creepy to me. I will let you know how it goes. Thanks, friend :)
My own experience is that I met my now wife right after I ditched dating apps and decided to enjoy life with friends instead. Or to be precise, I met her before that, but didn't care to speak and socialize with her.
Dating apps never worked to me because I was inexperienced and wanted to take my time to get to know the person (I mean like meeting a few times over a few weeks or months), but on dating apps there is this commonly shared nonsense that the first date and impression must all be perfect, or it's doomed.
My advice would be to make friends, spend as much time as you can outside (or meetups when friends are not an option) meeting random people in various contexts.
Also a couple of considerations:
- Love at first sight is a trap. It is more likely that 'the one' will seem 'meh' to you at first. You need to meet people multiple times to get to know them.
- Don't only meet people that are potential dating material. It is very important not to have this mindset, because it affects your behavior and image negatively. Socializing with people of both genders and all ages is also a very important part of that.
Dating apps never worked to me because I was inexperienced and wanted to take my time to get to know the person (I mean like meeting a few times over a few weeks or months), but on dating apps there is this commonly shared nonsense that the first date and impression must all be perfect, or it's doomed.
My advice would be to make friends, spend as much time as you can outside (or meetups when friends are not an option) meeting random people in various contexts.
Also a couple of considerations:
- Love at first sight is a trap. It is more likely that 'the one' will seem 'meh' to you at first. You need to meet people multiple times to get to know them.
- Don't only meet people that are potential dating material. It is very important not to have this mindset, because it affects your behavior and image negatively. Socializing with people of both genders and all ages is also a very important part of that.
I think it's just healthier. You go out and have a good time. Getting a date is just icing on the cake. You do online dating, anything short of success is a failure.
Plus you get to vet people before creating any expectations of an outcome.
Plus you get to vet people before creating any expectations of an outcome.
While reading your post I was thinking the same thing but the parent comment put it a lot more elegantly than I could lmao. I don't really have a lot of advice because a) I'm quite young and I've never dated someone and b) I don't really want kids, but I'm replying to let you know that I wish you all the best!
You are a love. Thank you so much for your encouragement.
Sorry for hijacking the comment. This is not specifically for you. I think all people should try to adopt instead of procreating. Having child by procreation is kind of selfish if you think, the child never asked for it, but we are forcing them to exist and go though all the problems of life. Bringing them to consciousness just to satisfy our needs and goals. Nobody reproduces by thinking anything beneficial for the child. There is also uncertain future now.
By contrast, there are plenty of kids who are alone and would be grateful if someone gives the the love of parents. There are already here, no need to bring more. Why is having shared genes is necessary if you just want to love a child?
By contrast, there are plenty of kids who are alone and would be grateful if someone gives the the love of parents. There are already here, no need to bring more. Why is having shared genes is necessary if you just want to love a child?
Socializing beats dating apps!
1. Do things you like 2. Where would the guy you want to date go to socialize?
1. Do things you like 2. Where would the guy you want to date go to socialize?
Good question! I think the guy I'd love would be a generous nerd, who is more handsome than he realizes. So maybe I'd go to hackathons or volunteer at soup kitchens. What do you think?
I think you'd get very different people at those two. Perhaps stereotyping, but do you want more career driven or socially driven?
I've met some really interesting people at maker spaces. Never dated anyone there.
I always thought habitat for humanity would be cool/useful/fun/have interesting people, but they don't do it around here.
I haven't been, but you might try https://austinswingsyndicate.org/
I always make better friends when I'd go places regularly. When I was younger, I'd hop around to a new place frequently. I didn't build lasting friendships this way. Find something you'd like to do for a while.
Volunteering to help out at events can lead to meeting more people.
I've met some really interesting people at maker spaces. Never dated anyone there.
I always thought habitat for humanity would be cool/useful/fun/have interesting people, but they don't do it around here.
I haven't been, but you might try https://austinswingsyndicate.org/
I always make better friends when I'd go places regularly. When I was younger, I'd hop around to a new place frequently. I didn't build lasting friendships this way. Find something you'd like to do for a while.
Volunteering to help out at events can lead to meeting more people.
I think it's more like trying to build your love than search for it.
Might work. It works with happiness.
Might work. It works with happiness.
What culture is this, if I may ask?
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This post is framed as a laundry list of the things you've tried, but there's no information about your interactions with the men you dated. So I'm curious about what prevented those 120 dates from progressing forward.
How many different men did you go on the 120 dates with? How many men asked for second or third dates? Of these, how many did you accept? How many men did you ask for a second date? Assuming you get a second or third date, what typically ends the relationship?
There's really too little to go on here, but I've found a few common themes among other people who struggle with dating:
- They overrate their value on the dating market and set their sights on people out of their league.
- They're attracted to people who are bad fits in other ways. They may focus on winning over people who just aren't interested in them. Or they're attracted to people who have no intention of settling down with anyone. (EDIT: You wrote below that you set you're range from 30-50. That seems like a good sign that you're not being overly picky. Although, I would wager most 30 year old men setting up online dates with 40 year old women are looking for sex and not marriage).
- They spread themselves too thin, begin treating people like a commodity, and don't put effort into developing meaningful relationships, instead jumping from date to date hoping for love at first sight. You might be playing it like a numbers game, and that can be antithetical to building relationships. Online dating can make it worse, since it's so easy to just move on to the next person.
Also, it's unfortunately just much harder to date at 40+. The people who want to be married often are married by that age. You'll catch people on the rebound from divorces, but they're not always ready to jump back into a marriage. It's not impossible, it's just harder.
EDIT: I just thought of an online dating suggestion from my own experience. Use recent photos that are flattering but realistic. When I was in my mid-30s, I my hair began thinning and I didn't update my photos because I was so self-conscious. And as my hair loss progressed, my dates started going worse and worse. When a woman called me out on it, I finally updated my photos. After that, my dates had realistic expectations and I was no longer losing their trust right off the bat, and things improved immediately.
How many different men did you go on the 120 dates with? How many men asked for second or third dates? Of these, how many did you accept? How many men did you ask for a second date? Assuming you get a second or third date, what typically ends the relationship?
There's really too little to go on here, but I've found a few common themes among other people who struggle with dating:
- They overrate their value on the dating market and set their sights on people out of their league.
- They're attracted to people who are bad fits in other ways. They may focus on winning over people who just aren't interested in them. Or they're attracted to people who have no intention of settling down with anyone. (EDIT: You wrote below that you set you're range from 30-50. That seems like a good sign that you're not being overly picky. Although, I would wager most 30 year old men setting up online dates with 40 year old women are looking for sex and not marriage).
- They spread themselves too thin, begin treating people like a commodity, and don't put effort into developing meaningful relationships, instead jumping from date to date hoping for love at first sight. You might be playing it like a numbers game, and that can be antithetical to building relationships. Online dating can make it worse, since it's so easy to just move on to the next person.
Also, it's unfortunately just much harder to date at 40+. The people who want to be married often are married by that age. You'll catch people on the rebound from divorces, but they're not always ready to jump back into a marriage. It's not impossible, it's just harder.
EDIT: I just thought of an online dating suggestion from my own experience. Use recent photos that are flattering but realistic. When I was in my mid-30s, I my hair began thinning and I didn't update my photos because I was so self-conscious. And as my hair loss progressed, my dates started going worse and worse. When a woman called me out on it, I finally updated my photos. After that, my dates had realistic expectations and I was no longer losing their trust right off the bat, and things improved immediately.
I know many educated, intelligent, attractive, kind 40 something women. Who also say they want to get married. But, are searching for a unicorn. And will not lower their unreasonable standards. Because, their dream guy doesn’t exist.
Some dealbreaker’s of their’s - never married no kids degree makes 6 figures texan (even though she is in colorado) makes 7-8 figures a year (I kid you not, $1-10M / yr) dog lover vegan wants kids
The list continues for these women. There will always be some ‘red flag’, that disqualifies their potential partner.
Meanwhile, a man just wants - attractive, good in bed, and it’d be nice if she cooks.
Today, women want it all. I don’t think men are built to be the perfect partner and best friend.
Some dealbreaker’s of their’s - never married no kids degree makes 6 figures texan (even though she is in colorado) makes 7-8 figures a year (I kid you not, $1-10M / yr) dog lover vegan wants kids
The list continues for these women. There will always be some ‘red flag’, that disqualifies their potential partner.
Meanwhile, a man just wants - attractive, good in bed, and it’d be nice if she cooks.
Today, women want it all. I don’t think men are built to be the perfect partner and best friend.
I actually do quite agree with you, but that’s not me!
I want someone kind, loyal, good in bed, happy, smart enough and yes, I’ll admit eager to grow and learn as a person.
Don’t care a wit about six figures, vegan , though all my married women friends say I should !! :)
I want someone kind, loyal, good in bed, happy, smart enough and yes, I’ll admit eager to grow and learn as a person.
Don’t care a wit about six figures, vegan , though all my married women friends say I should !! :)
"smart enough"...after reading a lot of your replies, I get the sense this is biggest blocker. It seems you run a startup, so your looking for equal to that? Do you realize how rare that is?
If I'm right about running a startup, or something of that nature of leadership, you may want to consider looking for someone that's funny and interesting, rather than smart. If you look at your male counterparts who have found marriage success, I bet you will find plenty of un-equall 'intelligence', measured by their achievements anyway. But this doesn't make them bad partners, often it makes even better actually.
It's not too often you find doctor couples, that's all I'm saying.
If I'm right about running a startup, or something of that nature of leadership, you may want to consider looking for someone that's funny and interesting, rather than smart. If you look at your male counterparts who have found marriage success, I bet you will find plenty of un-equall 'intelligence', measured by their achievements anyway. But this doesn't make them bad partners, often it makes even better actually.
It's not too often you find doctor couples, that's all I'm saying.
Makes sense.
Since she had no father, I suggest the Mr.Right must be somebody not only husband but also the father, irrespective of his age, i.e.must be the image of father the little girl has - the smartest man on the earth, the strongest man on the earth, etc etc....
Since she had no father, I suggest the Mr.Right must be somebody not only husband but also the father, irrespective of his age, i.e.must be the image of father the little girl has - the smartest man on the earth, the strongest man on the earth, etc etc....
This probably sounds really arrogant, but I’ve long given up finding a man as smart as me:)
A basic ability to carry on a conversation and make decisions based on data would be nice
A basic ability to carry on a conversation and make decisions based on data would be nice
If you made such a comment on a date, I'd get up and walk out without saying another word to you. To be quite honest, you do come across as somewhat naive / self-centered to the extent where I need to ask if you've ever been in a serious long-term relationship. That, combined with the sense that you're approaching this from an achievement point-of-view, makes me think that you're in for a rough time. Relationships are complicated and kids even more so. Being a good parent is not something that can be taken for granted, it takes a lot of time and a lot of energy.
By the way, you can't tick the "working on yourself" box by doing "therapy, support groups, meditation, dating coaching, yoga and hypnotism". These are just activities, and I'd say at least equally prone to make you a worse person as to improve you. The best way to work on yourself is to be in a healthy, dynamic relationship with someone that doesn't think you're insufferable. The compromises and attitude adjustments you'll have to make to keep the relationship going are invaluable learning (and humbling) experiences that no book or yoga teacher will ever teach you. And this is my advice to you, someone who's in his early 50s, divorced, happily remarried with kids from both marriages.
It seems to me you're trying to dive before learning to swim. I would forget kids for the next 1-3 years, and focus on finding someone to be in a deep relationship with. Even if that doesn't work out, you'll be a lot better off afterwards regarding working on yourself. That will also make you a better parent.
By the way, you can't tick the "working on yourself" box by doing "therapy, support groups, meditation, dating coaching, yoga and hypnotism". These are just activities, and I'd say at least equally prone to make you a worse person as to improve you. The best way to work on yourself is to be in a healthy, dynamic relationship with someone that doesn't think you're insufferable. The compromises and attitude adjustments you'll have to make to keep the relationship going are invaluable learning (and humbling) experiences that no book or yoga teacher will ever teach you. And this is my advice to you, someone who's in his early 50s, divorced, happily remarried with kids from both marriages.
It seems to me you're trying to dive before learning to swim. I would forget kids for the next 1-3 years, and focus on finding someone to be in a deep relationship with. Even if that doesn't work out, you'll be a lot better off afterwards regarding working on yourself. That will also make you a better parent.
Yeah I don't really follow her desire to find a man that makes "data driven choices" in his life and then talks about hypnotism and gives a lot of data about her failures in dating and doesn't see that the common denominator in all of this is her.
No offense OP - I don't know you and I'm not making a statement around you specifically, but more just the conclusions one could draw in general about a person that has posted the information you've posted. I wish you well.
No offense OP - I don't know you and I'm not making a statement around you specifically, but more just the conclusions one could draw in general about a person that has posted the information you've posted. I wish you well.
Harsh
i don't know if you can see it, but a sister comment here that has been flagged states:
Makes sense.
Since she had no father, I suggest the Mr.Right must be somebody not only husband but also the father, irrespective of his age, i.e.must be the image of father the little girl has - the smartest man on the earth, the strongest man on the earth, etc etc....
i can vouch for this 100%. growing up with a single parent of the same gender does make you subconsciously look for that missing parent. and a part of the challenge is that you don't even know what you should be looking for, so you look for something that you imagine, but you most often end up with someone who is like the other parent that you do know.
Makes sense.
Since she had no father, I suggest the Mr.Right must be somebody not only husband but also the father, irrespective of his age, i.e.must be the image of father the little girl has - the smartest man on the earth, the strongest man on the earth, etc etc....
i can vouch for this 100%. growing up with a single parent of the same gender does make you subconsciously look for that missing parent. and a part of the challenge is that you don't even know what you should be looking for, so you look for something that you imagine, but you most often end up with someone who is like the other parent that you do know.
I have never once in my relationship considered who was smarter than who. What makes you so smart that this is even a thought?
> This probably sounds really arrogant, but I've long given up finding a man as smart as me:)
The smartest people I know think they're the dumbest person in the room. Your above response is very indicative of the kind of vibe you give to the men you date.
If you can't find a man who's as smart as you, that reflects on the pool of people you surround yourself with, not the intelligence of the men you can't find.
Your sort of thought will usually manifest itself in unconscious behaviour on dates, and will be a turn-off to the men you date. In the same way that many people can't detect the smell on their own bodies, you too likely won't know how abrasive your behaviour might be to others. I know a woman who has professed the same thoughts as you do (in a more humblebrag manner) and she has had extreme difficulties in finding a man to marry despite extreme efforts at such.
The smartest people I know think they're the dumbest person in the room. Your above response is very indicative of the kind of vibe you give to the men you date.
If you can't find a man who's as smart as you, that reflects on the pool of people you surround yourself with, not the intelligence of the men you can't find.
Your sort of thought will usually manifest itself in unconscious behaviour on dates, and will be a turn-off to the men you date. In the same way that many people can't detect the smell on their own bodies, you too likely won't know how abrasive your behaviour might be to others. I know a woman who has professed the same thoughts as you do (in a more humblebrag manner) and she has had extreme difficulties in finding a man to marry despite extreme efforts at such.
It is likely to be quite effective if you talked yourself back down to earth. If you permit the crude phrasing, your "value" in the "dating market" peaked 20-15 years ago and you are well past your prime. (Yes, yes, "individuals", "not generalisations", "blah blah", but you are talking statistics when you've gone out with 120 men already).
Upon reading your post, it appears highly likely you are overestimating how clever you are.
Also, do not forget that almost nobody seeks a long term relationship (of the "looking for a mate" kind) where they do not feel "needed".
Another factor to consider is that grandiosity is often a symptom of a deep unmet need from childhood.
I hope you learn the humility which is necessary to find what you are looking for. Good luck!
Upon reading your post, it appears highly likely you are overestimating how clever you are.
Also, do not forget that almost nobody seeks a long term relationship (of the "looking for a mate" kind) where they do not feel "needed".
Another factor to consider is that grandiosity is often a symptom of a deep unmet need from childhood.
I hope you learn the humility which is necessary to find what you are looking for. Good luck!
> This probably sounds really arrogant, but I’ve long given up finding a man as smart as me:)
That does sound really arrogant but I can understand it. It may be that at your core you believe you know what is right, and no one knows better. So you’ll never find someone that is as smart as you, because in your mind that meter is pegged at maximum.
But you still need someone you can respect. And remember that even if someone is not a smart as you in one way, they may be wiser and more capable in other ways that you can respect. Mutual respect is what is important in the end IMO.
That does sound really arrogant but I can understand it. It may be that at your core you believe you know what is right, and no one knows better. So you’ll never find someone that is as smart as you, because in your mind that meter is pegged at maximum.
But you still need someone you can respect. And remember that even if someone is not a smart as you in one way, they may be wiser and more capable in other ways that you can respect. Mutual respect is what is important in the end IMO.
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Agreed. The term partner is really not what men are looking for. We’re looking for a wife— take care of my house and children, be attractive and cook. If you’re intelligent more the better.
Speak for yourself! A partner is exactly what I want. I don't need a cook or a housekeeper; if I did, I'd hire one. I want to be part of a team of equals, or I'd rather be single.
I am not speaking hypothetically. It was a real problem for me when my ex-wife lost her job, gave up looking for another, and just... turned herself into a housewife. I could not relate to her anymore. This was not the issue which ultimately broke our marriage, but it certainly didn't help.
I am not speaking hypothetically. It was a real problem for me when my ex-wife lost her job, gave up looking for another, and just... turned herself into a housewife. I could not relate to her anymore. This was not the issue which ultimately broke our marriage, but it certainly didn't help.
I really appreciate you speaking up. It means a lot to women to see men want more than an indentured servant/sex worker.
I'm really sorry to hear about your troubles with your ex-wife. I can imagine it could be really depressing/invalidating to lose a job and not know where to turn. Luckily, as a single person, we don't really have the option of not working so there's an energy and force behind finding a vocation.
I sometimes think in a different reality, I might enjoy teaching and raising children while my husband worked. It's a ton of work though and you don't really get any down time, which is hard.
I did this before when I was dating someone who had a son, but I also worked. I still found it very fulfilling.
When I was a teacher, I always found the kids who were the most grounded were the ones who had a stay-at-home dad.
I think it's nice for kids when one parent is there just for the child rearing.
Some random thoughts and musings, but it's really really tough when both people don't have interests outside the marriage.
I'm sorry you and your ex had to go through this.
I'm really sorry to hear about your troubles with your ex-wife. I can imagine it could be really depressing/invalidating to lose a job and not know where to turn. Luckily, as a single person, we don't really have the option of not working so there's an energy and force behind finding a vocation.
I sometimes think in a different reality, I might enjoy teaching and raising children while my husband worked. It's a ton of work though and you don't really get any down time, which is hard.
I did this before when I was dating someone who had a son, but I also worked. I still found it very fulfilling.
When I was a teacher, I always found the kids who were the most grounded were the ones who had a stay-at-home dad.
I think it's nice for kids when one parent is there just for the child rearing.
Some random thoughts and musings, but it's really really tough when both people don't have interests outside the marriage.
I'm sorry you and your ex had to go through this.
You don’t have to be a housewife to fulfill the other criteria.
You appear to be mistaking your personal preferences for universal human ideals. This is an easy mistake to make, as the things we want feel obvious and natural; it can be hard to imagine not wanting them, or wanting something contrary. It's OK to want whatever it is you want, but we're all different, and we really do want different things.
I don’t think so. I feel like you may be in a bubble. I travel a lot for work (within the US) and that seems to be the vast majority.
Of course I am - intentionally so! Who cares? You made a sweepingly broad assertion about the nature of male desire, which was simplistic and inadequate. I demonstrated as much by describing my own preferences, as several others here have done. The nature of my social bubble is irrelevant, because I made no claim beyond the bounds of my personal experience.
You're in a bubble, too, whether you see its boundaries or not. In order to speak meaningfully about what the "vast majority" of people want, we would need some actual research.
You're in a bubble, too, whether you see its boundaries or not. In order to speak meaningfully about what the "vast majority" of people want, we would need some actual research.
I could not relate to her anymore
i don't want to analyze or criticize your feelings, but since i may face a similar situation, i'd like to explore how to avoid that for myself.
i do want my wife to be an equal too, but how can she be if she is not working like me?
a couple of thoughts come to mind: (these are random ideas, i don't know if they all make sense)
there is a school of thought that says that housework should be treated like any other respectable fulltime job.
like in a startup, there are fun tasks and boring gruntwork. i am doing the programming work for the customers, which brings in the money and my businesspartner is managing the accounting, invoices and takes care of the office. we are saving the expense for a janitor, so we do cleanup ourselves, and since i am busy on the computer, it's mostly done by my partner (i remember reading about a CEO who said being a janitor was part of his duties)
so to translate that to a family, like a business, there are a number of things that need to be done. someone may be focusing on doing the work that brings in the money, and the other person is doing all those other things.
the point is, all those tasks are equally important for the success of a business as they are for a family. we would not consider a CEO to be less valued than the CTO, so why should the housewife be considered unequal to her money earning husband?
we are a team, where each of us is valued the same, but that doesn't mean we have to split the work equally too. instead everyone contributes according to their ability.
i think what your problem may have been that you simply were unprepared for the change and didn't know how to deal with it. i don't know how i am going to deal with that either, but at least i know it will most likely be happening so i'll do my best to prepare.
a few more thoughts of what could help to achive equality when one partner is not working:
make decisions together. especially about spending money. care for each others goals and interests outside of work and housework. in other words, take each other seriously, regardless of what the other is contributing. treat the housework as enabling your outside work, just like the CEO enables the CTO.
i don't want to analyze or criticize your feelings, but since i may face a similar situation, i'd like to explore how to avoid that for myself.
i do want my wife to be an equal too, but how can she be if she is not working like me?
a couple of thoughts come to mind: (these are random ideas, i don't know if they all make sense)
there is a school of thought that says that housework should be treated like any other respectable fulltime job.
like in a startup, there are fun tasks and boring gruntwork. i am doing the programming work for the customers, which brings in the money and my businesspartner is managing the accounting, invoices and takes care of the office. we are saving the expense for a janitor, so we do cleanup ourselves, and since i am busy on the computer, it's mostly done by my partner (i remember reading about a CEO who said being a janitor was part of his duties)
so to translate that to a family, like a business, there are a number of things that need to be done. someone may be focusing on doing the work that brings in the money, and the other person is doing all those other things.
the point is, all those tasks are equally important for the success of a business as they are for a family. we would not consider a CEO to be less valued than the CTO, so why should the housewife be considered unequal to her money earning husband?
we are a team, where each of us is valued the same, but that doesn't mean we have to split the work equally too. instead everyone contributes according to their ability.
i think what your problem may have been that you simply were unprepared for the change and didn't know how to deal with it. i don't know how i am going to deal with that either, but at least i know it will most likely be happening so i'll do my best to prepare.
a few more thoughts of what could help to achive equality when one partner is not working:
make decisions together. especially about spending money. care for each others goals and interests outside of work and housework. in other words, take each other seriously, regardless of what the other is contributing. treat the housework as enabling your outside work, just like the CEO enables the CTO.
That's not true. Sure there are a lot of men that want a traditional wife to take care of the house, etc. But I'm not sure they are the majority of men in 2022. Lots of men out there certainly don't want or care if their wife is a homemaker. I, personally, and many people I know aren't particularly interested in that sort of wife and would prefer a "partner" that that has her own professional and personal life and goals equal to us.
It's so affirming to see men speak up and say they are not looking for a traditional housewife. Thank you for speaking up. I'm sure that this doesn't only impact me, but other women reading this.
You are woefully out of touch if you think that’s what the majority of men are not looking for and that’s just in the United States. Additionally a woman working does not automatically mean she doesn’t satisfy the other criteria.
Who is we?
Speak for yourself… it’s a very outdated view… it’s some sh!tty legacy code frequently causing problems - that badly needs rewriting.
And someone more intelligent / independent wouldn’t go for that arrangement you laid out.
Speak for yourself… it’s a very outdated view… it’s some sh!tty legacy code frequently causing problems - that badly needs rewriting.
And someone more intelligent / independent wouldn’t go for that arrangement you laid out.
I mean, thats what you want, I want a thriving adult to share life with.
This is a super weird attitude to me (a man).
I was absolutely looking for a partner, and I did not care even a little whether she cooked. And physical attractiveness is extremely subjective and not the highest on my list (although obviously it is important). But to each their own I guess.
I was absolutely looking for a partner, and I did not care even a little whether she cooked. And physical attractiveness is extremely subjective and not the highest on my list (although obviously it is important). But to each their own I guess.
That's very true.
You should look for men who are divorced or widowers, because 41 is 41. I know you said “no discouragement” but perhaps that is one of your issues. People who lie to you to avoid hurting your feelings are not necessarily doing you a favor. Very few men who are not in the 2nd hand category or are themselves in their 50s or older are going to be even interested. Your other issue is most men who are not in those categories will feign serious interest just to screw you, after which you will be ignored. That is what a couple of my wife’s friends who are in this category often struggle with. So, my suggestion is to restrict your search to second-hand men.
Definitely ! And I’m also not opposed at all to having step kids. I’d love them and mother them with all my heart !
Upvote for this one.
You might actually WANT a 2nd hand man, because those who have had a family before would have less qualms doing it again (if they have the means) and can decide fast knowing what they are getting into.
What you are short on is time, but I assume you don't want to compromise either. Someone who is widowed or divorce (that's not his fault) isn't a compromise in his quality as an individual, but one of time and some resources. But he would very much appreciate a mature woman who is open to his family.
Not gonna lie: if I didn't have kids and was single, I'd shoot for early 30's max until I was into my 50's. Unless you were a knockout who is just better than me (but then you wouldn't want me either). But having kids changes that equation immensely, because I'd appreciate the partner aspect much more because there is less pressure to have multiple kids.
You might actually WANT a 2nd hand man, because those who have had a family before would have less qualms doing it again (if they have the means) and can decide fast knowing what they are getting into.
What you are short on is time, but I assume you don't want to compromise either. Someone who is widowed or divorce (that's not his fault) isn't a compromise in his quality as an individual, but one of time and some resources. But he would very much appreciate a mature woman who is open to his family.
Not gonna lie: if I didn't have kids and was single, I'd shoot for early 30's max until I was into my 50's. Unless you were a knockout who is just better than me (but then you wouldn't want me either). But having kids changes that equation immensely, because I'd appreciate the partner aspect much more because there is less pressure to have multiple kids.
Good ideas.
41 isn't that old, and by this age there are more divorced than never married.
If someone has never had a serious relationship by the time they're 33 or so, it's a red flag 100% of the time in my experience.
41 isn't that old, and by this age there are more divorced than never married.
If someone has never had a serious relationship by the time they're 33 or so, it's a red flag 100% of the time in my experience.
Yeah, I’m afraid I might be the red flag ! That said, I spent most of my twenties processing being abandoned by my dad and fear of sexual assault due to that being part of the history of women in my family. So I didn’t really start dating with an open mind until my thirties- and that was in nyc which is notoriously bad for women. But probably I still have a little red flag :) one guy asked me on a date why “the beautiful one hadn’t been taken.” I was like, um, I’m not sure I knew I was for sale ? :) love divorced guys though. And love you for being so active in this discussion ! I’m inviting you to my wedding metadat:)
Everyone has some flags, but I thought you said you'd had a boyfriend from an app before? If it was more than a purely physical relationship, I think you're off the hook :)
> And love you for being so active in this discussion ! I’m inviting you to my wedding metadat:)
Aww I'm honored, and FYI- I literally just sent out the invites for mine this coming August :D Cheers!
> And love you for being so active in this discussion ! I’m inviting you to my wedding metadat:)
Aww I'm honored, and FYI- I literally just sent out the invites for mine this coming August :D Cheers!
So he complimented you, and you twisted it such that he implied you're a whore instead?
Interesting.
Interesting.
Oh ok. No, I didn’t think he was implying I was a whore. That’s what you read into it. I took odds with the language implying that I was a piece of property to be “taken.” But I was very gracious. Don’t worry. Good thoughts !
Ok, don't take this wrong. I'm rooting for you. But there's the red flag.
He said something that's a common expression, "taken", which is used for both men and women. It was clearly intended to be a compliment.
You chose an unlikely interpretation that clearly didn't match intent or common usage and decided to get offended about it.
After all your self description, I was wondering "how is she single?"
Right there, now I understand. I'd be out the door. Someone that is looking HARD for ways to be offended is not relationship material.
Think about your need to assign your meanings to other people's words. Maybe talk to a professional. This one thing can sink you.
Good luck!
He said something that's a common expression, "taken", which is used for both men and women. It was clearly intended to be a compliment.
You chose an unlikely interpretation that clearly didn't match intent or common usage and decided to get offended about it.
After all your self description, I was wondering "how is she single?"
Right there, now I understand. I'd be out the door. Someone that is looking HARD for ways to be offended is not relationship material.
Think about your need to assign your meanings to other people's words. Maybe talk to a professional. This one thing can sink you.
Good luck!
> Someone that is looking HARD for ways to be offended is not relationship material.
Relationship material is subjective, and this is a really insensitive way to say you don't think you'd be compatible with them (some might say insensitivity makes someone "not relationship material")
For what it's worth, I'm a man and I understand why that language is off-putting to women. Also more interested in women who are more interested in being the taker than the takee, but I'm weird like that, I think gender scripts have most men seeking women looking for partners to take a more passive role (at least in some regards)
Relationship material is subjective, and this is a really insensitive way to say you don't think you'd be compatible with them (some might say insensitivity makes someone "not relationship material")
For what it's worth, I'm a man and I understand why that language is off-putting to women. Also more interested in women who are more interested in being the taker than the takee, but I'm weird like that, I think gender scripts have most men seeking women looking for partners to take a more passive role (at least in some regards)
Well said, also another red flag, at least for me, is that she mentioned that she is looking for qualities of a partner like looking for a CTO. But the difference is that with a CTO is it is purely an economic relationship which can be terminated at anytime with no hard feelings while with a life partner or a husband, it is more of a covenant relationship meant to survive future uncertainties and so really less flashy qualities such as loyalty, tolerance and humility are more attractive than popularity, beauty or intelligence.
I absolutely disagree. Someone you work with every day who is an intimate partner in your company that you depend on for your livelihood is far from someone that you can terminate with no hard feelings. I'm sure anyone who has built a company and had to part with a CTO knows that there were many many feelings involved and it was a real partnership and by no means easy.
loyalty, tolerance and humility are qualities i would also like in a business partner because our business relationship should also be able * to survive future uncertainties*
I was thinking the same thing.
I'm not comment OP, but you literally said "I was like, um, I’m not sure I knew I was for SALE?"
A women for sale is pretty much a whore, so it doesn't seem they read into rather than taking you literally.
But even regardless, the fact that you took his word 'taken' in a literal sense rather than the compliment it was intended as, and here your defending it again rather than reflecting.
If your crossing off guys because they compliment you with common colloquial phrases that you take literally and negatively, well, you will indeed have a short list of suiters.
A women for sale is pretty much a whore, so it doesn't seem they read into rather than taking you literally.
But even regardless, the fact that you took his word 'taken' in a literal sense rather than the compliment it was intended as, and here your defending it again rather than reflecting.
If your crossing off guys because they compliment you with common colloquial phrases that you take literally and negatively, well, you will indeed have a short list of suiters.
How would you feel on a date if a woman asked, "why have you not been taken?"
Impossible to answer. Social cues are tough. It all depends on how it was said and how it was meant - could be a totally innocuous comment or something to be concerned about.
For some people, “why have you not been taken” may mean nothing more than “I really like you and I can’t believe you are available.”
For some people, “why have you not been taken” may mean nothing more than “I really like you and I can’t believe you are available.”
If we have been chatting friendly for a while already, then flattered. It's clearly implying that from their perspective I appear to be very desirable.
And if it was a serious question asked early on, I would probably reply with something I don't like about myself, a weakness, if you will. It's not an entirely unreasonable question.
And if it was a serious question asked early on, I would probably reply with something I don't like about myself, a weakness, if you will. It's not an entirely unreasonable question.
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I’m very confused
The biggest lie told in western society is that a woman can either have it all or that getting married/mom is being oppressed.
So the story is now for a woman to work hard, go to school, work / become a “boss bi*” and be independent. Don’t need a man! You go girl!
So this woman reaches a local maxima in career and by her 30s starts to question the narrative she’s bought into. Except Father Time has taken its toll, and what was once a healthy fruitful person is slowly turning into a dry fruit.
A successful career woman, will want to find a partner who’s her equal or better. So she’s now targeting someone who’s:
mid-30s+ * at same income or higher * single
Except this dreamy man who fits the criteria is looking for :
* woman in 20s * income ? Who cares?
So now our boss lady is left sad and mad at the false narrative she’s been fed her whole life. A couple more years pass and whatever fake dreams of “I heard IVF is really good now!” Are long gone.
Free lunches don’t exist.
So the story is now for a woman to work hard, go to school, work / become a “boss bi*” and be independent. Don’t need a man! You go girl!
So this woman reaches a local maxima in career and by her 30s starts to question the narrative she’s bought into. Except Father Time has taken its toll, and what was once a healthy fruitful person is slowly turning into a dry fruit.
A successful career woman, will want to find a partner who’s her equal or better. So she’s now targeting someone who’s:
mid-30s+ * at same income or higher * single
Except this dreamy man who fits the criteria is looking for :
* woman in 20s * income ? Who cares?
So now our boss lady is left sad and mad at the false narrative she’s been fed her whole life. A couple more years pass and whatever fake dreams of “I heard IVF is really good now!” Are long gone.
Free lunches don’t exist.
Absolutely spot on. I truly don't see why so many people miss this obvious truth.
I am a man who dated many women casually via online dating, until I decided to settle down (wrote about this here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31021578), so I think I can bring a somewhat relevant perspective.
Based on my experience, dating is absolutely a market driven by a typical economy of supply and demand, and the supply of "good enough" men who want to settle down with a woman is virtually unlimited for virtually any woman out there, in virtually any major US metro area. This means that the problem might be in yourself, and my guess is:
- Men perceive you as "weirdo". For example, going on a first date and immediately stating that you are looking to have kids since your time is "running out" would be a red flag even to the most desperate men.
- (I bet my money on this) You are too picky, even if you don't think you are, and the only men you're interested in are the ones who have an overwhelming abundance of choice (e.g. top 5% in terms of earning, looks, status), and as such are not in any pressure to settle down with you.
Based on my experience, dating is absolutely a market driven by a typical economy of supply and demand, and the supply of "good enough" men who want to settle down with a woman is virtually unlimited for virtually any woman out there, in virtually any major US metro area. This means that the problem might be in yourself, and my guess is:
- Men perceive you as "weirdo". For example, going on a first date and immediately stating that you are looking to have kids since your time is "running out" would be a red flag even to the most desperate men.
- (I bet my money on this) You are too picky, even if you don't think you are, and the only men you're interested in are the ones who have an overwhelming abundance of choice (e.g. top 5% in terms of earning, looks, status), and as such are not in any pressure to settle down with you.
Thanks for sharing your article ! Looking forward to reading it!
And thank you even more for taking the time to share your advice with me. Your time is precious and the fact you’d take time for me who you don’t even know means a lot.
So….
With regards to your first point, I am definitely a weirdo and proud of it! One of my favorite teachers says, “weird is wonderful !” Who else but a bonafide weirdo would post such ah intimate post about their dating life and deepest hopes and fears for children and marriage in such a public setting as Hacker News. Oddly enough, despite being a proud weirdo, I find almost every guy I go out with wants to see me again. So that’s cool, and I appreciate that! I think it’s partly because I’m grounded and kind, and partly because I’m pretty, rarely because I feel truly seen and appreciated for being the delightful weirdo I am.
With regards to your second point, I can’t tell you how much I loathe the word, “picky” which I find to be used so much when in comes to dating and by so many people in this thread. Can’t we at least say “selective”? The word picky makes me think of someone picking their nose not picking a partner.
I think that what people are actually implying when they say “picky” is that I’m materialistic , that I’m looking for a rich guy, for a hot guy, etcetera.
While at times, like most human beings, I am sure I dismissed someone wonderful for the wrong reasons and really missed out, overall I do not believe this to be the case.
I’m looking for a kind man, for an honest man, for a loyal man, for a man I’m physically attracted to, yes, but I think that can also grow with time.
I think that I’ve fallen in love with many a man I didn’t like immediately and so I find myself gravitating more towards advice of friends first then be less selective on such an important decision than life partner.
Would anyone say that someone is being too selective on choosing their CTO ? What can be more important than life partner ?
And thank you even more for taking the time to share your advice with me. Your time is precious and the fact you’d take time for me who you don’t even know means a lot.
So….
With regards to your first point, I am definitely a weirdo and proud of it! One of my favorite teachers says, “weird is wonderful !” Who else but a bonafide weirdo would post such ah intimate post about their dating life and deepest hopes and fears for children and marriage in such a public setting as Hacker News. Oddly enough, despite being a proud weirdo, I find almost every guy I go out with wants to see me again. So that’s cool, and I appreciate that! I think it’s partly because I’m grounded and kind, and partly because I’m pretty, rarely because I feel truly seen and appreciated for being the delightful weirdo I am.
With regards to your second point, I can’t tell you how much I loathe the word, “picky” which I find to be used so much when in comes to dating and by so many people in this thread. Can’t we at least say “selective”? The word picky makes me think of someone picking their nose not picking a partner.
I think that what people are actually implying when they say “picky” is that I’m materialistic , that I’m looking for a rich guy, for a hot guy, etcetera.
While at times, like most human beings, I am sure I dismissed someone wonderful for the wrong reasons and really missed out, overall I do not believe this to be the case.
I’m looking for a kind man, for an honest man, for a loyal man, for a man I’m physically attracted to, yes, but I think that can also grow with time.
I think that I’ve fallen in love with many a man I didn’t like immediately and so I find myself gravitating more towards advice of friends first then be less selective on such an important decision than life partner.
Would anyone say that someone is being too selective on choosing their CTO ? What can be more important than life partner ?
I used "picky" in another reply and I apologize since this is obviously a sensitive subject and you're right that it's not the most generous word choice.
That said, I think you do need to find a balance. Using your CTO example: if you only interview a single person, you're certainly not selective enough. But if you spend over a year and interview 100+ qualified candidates and still haven't found a mutual fit, then yeah maybe you're being too selective, or just not realistic about how you stack up against the competition.
There's a saying in hiring that you might have heard that says "hire for strength, not lack of weakness". That might apply well in your case too as a way to kind of mentally smooth over accepting someone that maybe doesn't meet all your standards. Like maybe they're well below your physical attractiveness standards or not well spoken, but they're incredibly kind or funny or interesting to talk to.
If you're pursuing a guy that you would have also been interested in when you were 28 and in your physical prime, well, that probably means you've got a lot of competition that will be tough to overcome. Perhaps a weird way to think about it, but it's better if there's something faintly eww about him from your 28 year old self's perspective, that you're now willing to look past.
Anyway, I really wish you luck. You seem like a great person and it's a shame that simply by the mistake of waiting a bit too long in the biological game, you're in a tough spot. While men have their own set of challenges, we don't have to deal with a deadline on figuring these things out.
That said, I think you do need to find a balance. Using your CTO example: if you only interview a single person, you're certainly not selective enough. But if you spend over a year and interview 100+ qualified candidates and still haven't found a mutual fit, then yeah maybe you're being too selective, or just not realistic about how you stack up against the competition.
There's a saying in hiring that you might have heard that says "hire for strength, not lack of weakness". That might apply well in your case too as a way to kind of mentally smooth over accepting someone that maybe doesn't meet all your standards. Like maybe they're well below your physical attractiveness standards or not well spoken, but they're incredibly kind or funny or interesting to talk to.
If you're pursuing a guy that you would have also been interested in when you were 28 and in your physical prime, well, that probably means you've got a lot of competition that will be tough to overcome. Perhaps a weird way to think about it, but it's better if there's something faintly eww about him from your 28 year old self's perspective, that you're now willing to look past.
Anyway, I really wish you luck. You seem like a great person and it's a shame that simply by the mistake of waiting a bit too long in the biological game, you're in a tough spot. While men have their own set of challenges, we don't have to deal with a deadline on figuring these things out.
You don't have to apologize for the word picky, I can easily say words like that with friends without them being triggered, similarly to the word ,,taken'' in another thread.
It's an expression that has been used for a long time, and I don't even see that much difference between the word picky and selective (maybe because I'm not native English speaker, but in my language they are translated the same).
It's an expression that has been used for a long time, and I don't even see that much difference between the word picky and selective (maybe because I'm not native English speaker, but in my language they are translated the same).
It's really hard and vulnerable to put yourself out there like this. I think it's good to be as kind and generous as possible in these kinds of conversations even (or especially) if there's some brutal honesty involved.
> "What can be more important than life partner?"
My favourite TED talk pairing is Dan Gilbert's Surprising Science of Happiness[1], where he offers evidence upon evidence that we humans grow to like what we are stuck with and can't change. A year after winning the lottery and a year after losing the use of their legs, lottery winners and paraplegics report being equally happy with their lives, one of his studies shows, for example. And Barry Schwartz's Paradox of Choice talk[2] where he argues that the more choice we have, the less happy we will be after we made the choice, full of doubt whether we could or should have chosen better, questioning if we should choose again, and seeing any flaw in the choice as a reason to blame ourselves for choosing it.
In the USA there's over two million marriages every year[3], that seems a lot for people making the most important decision of their lives, to me.
> "I think that what people are actually implying when they say “picky” is that I’m materialistic , that I’m looking for a rich guy, for a hot guy, etcetera."
(I think that's different from common usage; a 'picky eater' is not someone looking for rich food or hot food, it's someone with a narrowband filter on what foods they will eat. By contrast, there's a joke about the shopkeeper who gets a bag of potatoes, splits them into two different containers, and marks one container "selected potatoes" with a higher price. 'Selective' means you selected, even people whose criteria is 'the first person I see' are selecting!)
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q1dgn_C0AU
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO6XEQIsCoM
[3] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/marriage_rate_2018/marr...
My favourite TED talk pairing is Dan Gilbert's Surprising Science of Happiness[1], where he offers evidence upon evidence that we humans grow to like what we are stuck with and can't change. A year after winning the lottery and a year after losing the use of their legs, lottery winners and paraplegics report being equally happy with their lives, one of his studies shows, for example. And Barry Schwartz's Paradox of Choice talk[2] where he argues that the more choice we have, the less happy we will be after we made the choice, full of doubt whether we could or should have chosen better, questioning if we should choose again, and seeing any flaw in the choice as a reason to blame ourselves for choosing it.
In the USA there's over two million marriages every year[3], that seems a lot for people making the most important decision of their lives, to me.
> "I think that what people are actually implying when they say “picky” is that I’m materialistic , that I’m looking for a rich guy, for a hot guy, etcetera."
(I think that's different from common usage; a 'picky eater' is not someone looking for rich food or hot food, it's someone with a narrowband filter on what foods they will eat. By contrast, there's a joke about the shopkeeper who gets a bag of potatoes, splits them into two different containers, and marks one container "selected potatoes" with a higher price. 'Selective' means you selected, even people whose criteria is 'the first person I see' are selecting!)
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q1dgn_C0AU
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO6XEQIsCoM
[3] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/marriage_rate_2018/marr...
> Would anyone say that someone is being too selective on choosing their CTO ?
If you’ve been searching for 3 years and the list of 120 viable candidates have been exhausted all because the CEO “wasn’t feeling it” with every single candidate while they each go on to become successful CTO’s of other companies. The yes, yes of cause everyone would say that they where being too selective on choosing their CTO.
If you’ve been searching for 3 years and the list of 120 viable candidates have been exhausted all because the CEO “wasn’t feeling it” with every single candidate while they each go on to become successful CTO’s of other companies. The yes, yes of cause everyone would say that they where being too selective on choosing their CTO.
i had a list of criteria, it wasn't a high priority list but more ideas of what i expected from a relationship. but, most of the things that turned out to be a challenge later were not on that list. now with that experience i could build a better list, but no-one has that experience before their first marriage. so this is difficult.
the only way out that i see is that both partners recognize the challenge and find the opportunity to work through these questions together, which btw is already a good way to work out if you can cooperate.
being able to cooperate, for me is now the most important quality in my relationship. if we can work together on reaching each others goals, we can solve the problems that get in the way.
ironically that is the same quality that's most important in the relationship of company founders.
the only way out that i see is that both partners recognize the challenge and find the opportunity to work through these questions together, which btw is already a good way to work out if you can cooperate.
being able to cooperate, for me is now the most important quality in my relationship. if we can work together on reaching each others goals, we can solve the problems that get in the way.
ironically that is the same quality that's most important in the relationship of company founders.
> Over the last two years I’ve been on over 120 dates with men I’ve met online - a few I met in person - in 3 different cities .
> You are too picky, even if you don't think you are.
Agreed. Actionable advice to OP would be to compromise and narrow down core requirements for a partner.
https://smile.amazon.com/Marry-Him-Case-Settling-Enough/dp/0... (Amazon: Marry Him: The Case for Settling for Mr. Good Enough)
https://openlibrary.org/works/OL8109804W/Marry_him?edition=i... (Open Library: Marry Him: The Case for Settling for Mr. Good Enough)
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/03/marry-h... (The original Atlantic piece that was the genesis of the above book)
https://smile.amazon.com/Science-Happily-Ever-After-Enduring... (The Science of Happily Ever After: What Really Matters in the Quest for Enduring Love)
> You are too picky, even if you don't think you are.
Agreed. Actionable advice to OP would be to compromise and narrow down core requirements for a partner.
https://smile.amazon.com/Marry-Him-Case-Settling-Enough/dp/0... (Amazon: Marry Him: The Case for Settling for Mr. Good Enough)
https://openlibrary.org/works/OL8109804W/Marry_him?edition=i... (Open Library: Marry Him: The Case for Settling for Mr. Good Enough)
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/03/marry-h... (The original Atlantic piece that was the genesis of the above book)
https://smile.amazon.com/Science-Happily-Ever-After-Enduring... (The Science of Happily Ever After: What Really Matters in the Quest for Enduring Love)
A new date every week for two years....doesn't really seem like she really got the chance to know any of them at that rate.
Thank you so much for the great book recommendations !
I don’t think I’m being too picky. I’d wont share the reasons I didn’t go out again with 90% of these guys but it would horrify you and violate my privacy and theirs. I always cross-check with a trusted friend on whatever my reason is.
And I’ve logged them all so I can go back and learn and grow from my past experiences
I don’t think I’m being too picky. I’d wont share the reasons I didn’t go out again with 90% of these guys but it would horrify you and violate my privacy and theirs. I always cross-check with a trusted friend on whatever my reason is.
And I’ve logged them all so I can go back and learn and grow from my past experiences
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120 isn't that many, it took me around that many FaceTimes and about 35-40 in-person dates before I found the love of my life during the pandemic.
Some people are way too picky, it's impossible to know if that's the case here or not, we don't have enough information.
Some people are way too picky, it's impossible to know if that's the case here or not, we don't have enough information.
immediately stating that you are looking to have kids since your time is "running out" would be a red flag
i disagree. that is something that i would want to know up front. yes, it may put off some people. but if the person is put off by that they are not likely to be a good candidate anyways in my eyes.
if you really want kids, then time is running out, and both need to be aware of that. i'd consider not stating that up front but bringing it up later an unfair bait-and-switch. if both are not on board with taking this biological limitation into account, then that's not going to work.
i disagree. that is something that i would want to know up front. yes, it may put off some people. but if the person is put off by that they are not likely to be a good candidate anyways in my eyes.
if you really want kids, then time is running out, and both need to be aware of that. i'd consider not stating that up front but bringing it up later an unfair bait-and-switch. if both are not on board with taking this biological limitation into account, then that's not going to work.
> I’ve deeply invested myself in therapy, support groups, meditation, dating coaching, yoga and hypnotism.
I’ve known plenty of my female friends who were so aggressively “fixing” and improving themselves, that they even didn’t notice how big their ego had become.
Their whole life was revolving around Me Me Me, I want to be perfect, I want a perfect marriage, I want a perfect husband, I am perfect, I I I…
It’s hard to explain, but from the side it was obvious for me why men kept avoiding them, which perpetuated the vicious circle of “self-improvement”.
No sane man or woman would want a partner obsessed with his ego.
No matter how fit, smart and beautiful the partner is.
I don’t know if it has anything to do with your situation (for that I’d need to know you in person at least) — but I see the described pattern in many women (and men too) around me. So maybe it was useful for someone.
I’ve known plenty of my female friends who were so aggressively “fixing” and improving themselves, that they even didn’t notice how big their ego had become.
Their whole life was revolving around Me Me Me, I want to be perfect, I want a perfect marriage, I want a perfect husband, I am perfect, I I I…
It’s hard to explain, but from the side it was obvious for me why men kept avoiding them, which perpetuated the vicious circle of “self-improvement”.
No sane man or woman would want a partner obsessed with his ego.
No matter how fit, smart and beautiful the partner is.
I don’t know if it has anything to do with your situation (for that I’d need to know you in person at least) — but I see the described pattern in many women (and men too) around me. So maybe it was useful for someone.
Totally agree. It's something I noticed a lot when I was living in SV, and I think a symptom of the cultural zeitgeist combined with the notorious superficiality of the typical California crowd.
My first wife's sister was a typical example, perfect on paper but a total trainwreck IRL. Her constant mindfulness retreats and yoga sessions (she was an instructor) had reinforced her self-image to such an extent that she couldn't see herself as anything but blameless in any manifest issue with another person while in reality, she was one of the worst narcissists I've ever encountered and a pathological manipulator to boot.
I'm not against activities such as meditation or yoga, as long as they're framed properly. They're inherently escapist and do not magically make someone a better person.
My first wife's sister was a typical example, perfect on paper but a total trainwreck IRL. Her constant mindfulness retreats and yoga sessions (she was an instructor) had reinforced her self-image to such an extent that she couldn't see herself as anything but blameless in any manifest issue with another person while in reality, she was one of the worst narcissists I've ever encountered and a pathological manipulator to boot.
I'm not against activities such as meditation or yoga, as long as they're framed properly. They're inherently escapist and do not magically make someone a better person.
My two cents, and I’m no expert…
Trying too hard is unattractive and unsuccessful. Many guys get spooked by someone who is on a short timeline to get married. They’re doing you the favor backing out early. This isn’t an accomplishment that one checks off like getting into the right school, or running a marathon.
Do things you like to do. Find your tribe. Be open to meeting people in that tribe as friends first.
You’re also in a bit of a demographic trap because men yourr age can date women from 25-50. Is your range that wide? If not, open your boundaries for what is considered acceptable (age, profession, already having kids, etc) if the interest and respect is there.
Good luck!
Trying too hard is unattractive and unsuccessful. Many guys get spooked by someone who is on a short timeline to get married. They’re doing you the favor backing out early. This isn’t an accomplishment that one checks off like getting into the right school, or running a marathon.
Do things you like to do. Find your tribe. Be open to meeting people in that tribe as friends first.
You’re also in a bit of a demographic trap because men yourr age can date women from 25-50. Is your range that wide? If not, open your boundaries for what is considered acceptable (age, profession, already having kids, etc) if the interest and respect is there.
Good luck!
Lol actually I set my range at 30-50. It’s been interesting !
Why is 50 a cutoff? There are lots of smart successful guys in their late 50s, early 60s who realise that their time to have a family is almost over.
The age difference will become a huge problem when one partner is still active while the other is an elderly man. It’s fine for a few years but not great to build a family.
I think you're underestimating what healthy 60 year olds can do. Physical fitness is only required for kids under about 6. After that it's just a nice to have. A good friend of mine had a 60 year old dad and 30 something mum. By all accounts it was great. The only downside was that his dad died when my friend was in his early 20s. I've also got some friends where the mum is mid 40s and the dad is in his early 60s. You can see that the dad avoids unnecessary running, but he's loving it and they've got a great 3 year old. Originally I thought the dad was a granddad. The OP is right at the end of her window to have children, her best bet is to massively lower her standards, or find a man at the end of his window to have children.
The problem is not the 60s, but the 70s and the 80s when the other partner is a lot younger. I’m sure a dad can be loving whatever his age is.
You're right, but the bigger picture is that the OP is about to seriously consider using a sperm donor. A 60 year old man with good genes who will provide 10 years of active parenting and an inheritance for the kid is a lot better than a sperm donor who will provide nothing. As for looking after him in his old age; she should screen for 60 year old men who can fund their own old age care.
This is terrible advice. This means that she would likely be widowed before she is 60 and will either have to start dating again or be alone in her golden years. Also, it doesn’t matter how good his genes are because sperm quality degrades with age and can cause birth defects.
I think you're letting perfect be the enemy of good, which is how the OP got into this mess.
Obviously it's best to meet when the woman is 28 and the man is 32. Then have kids when she is 31-35. The OP didn't do this and is now a bit stuck.
The OP is no longer able to attract the men she used to so she has to find a compromise she can live with. Older men are an option, ugly men are an option broke men are an option. The men she wants are choosing women exactly like her, but 10-15 years younger
Probably she's going to pick the default which is no kids or use a sperm donor.
Obviously it's best to meet when the woman is 28 and the man is 32. Then have kids when she is 31-35. The OP didn't do this and is now a bit stuck.
The OP is no longer able to attract the men she used to so she has to find a compromise she can live with. Older men are an option, ugly men are an option broke men are an option. The men she wants are choosing women exactly like her, but 10-15 years younger
Probably she's going to pick the default which is no kids or use a sperm donor.
The problem isn’t that OP isn’t getting anyone around her age who is interested in her it’s that she is rejecting them. I’m not saying she gets perfection. she is out of time to look for a Disney romance and having a family, she gets one and just needs to settle on someone who is likely also settling for her.
I dunno. I’m about 40 and male. But I think a successful and attractive 41-year-old woman who wants kids would be insane to go with someone over 50. That’s just too old. Definitely wise to set a 50 year hard cap and aim for 41 or lower IMO.
If you've only been doing it for two years... it may just not be long enough. I'm so sorry that's the case, but it seems to be. Also, you say a lot about yourself, but not a lot about what makes someone a "marriageable man". What are your criteria? Who are you looking for? Clearly you have a lot of people who seem like good candidates, so what rules them out?
My own anecdata is that it took me about three years of seriously looking - in my mid twenties - to find the person I'm now married to. She was my first and only successful date from Bumble in two years of using that app. I had done everything else: met people through my faith, through social events, used all the other apps, on and on and on.
Then, when we did meet, it was like lightning. It was one of the most bizarre experiences I have ever had, because I was completely convinced the kind of falling in love I experienced was a) impossible and b) would never be requited, and yet it was happening to me. It still makes my heart flutter thinking about it. I've spoken to my wife about it and she felt and still feels the same way. Within maybe a few hours of meeting each other, we both suspected, and after a couple of months we knew for sure. Like you, I had dated a lot of people, and many of them fit most or all of my personal criteria, and I theirs, but they weren't the right fit for reasons I couldn't quite explain. I don't think that means my wife is "the One" or anything - there is no such thing - but I have never met anyone else I'm not related to by blood with whom I've shared this kind of connection and a romantic intent.
It's incredibly tough and painful to search for that needle in a haystack, and I'm sorry you're going through it. But I believe it's possible to find for the vast majority of people.
I could write a lot more on this subject, but this has probably been poetical enough for now. I hope this helps.
My own anecdata is that it took me about three years of seriously looking - in my mid twenties - to find the person I'm now married to. She was my first and only successful date from Bumble in two years of using that app. I had done everything else: met people through my faith, through social events, used all the other apps, on and on and on.
Then, when we did meet, it was like lightning. It was one of the most bizarre experiences I have ever had, because I was completely convinced the kind of falling in love I experienced was a) impossible and b) would never be requited, and yet it was happening to me. It still makes my heart flutter thinking about it. I've spoken to my wife about it and she felt and still feels the same way. Within maybe a few hours of meeting each other, we both suspected, and after a couple of months we knew for sure. Like you, I had dated a lot of people, and many of them fit most or all of my personal criteria, and I theirs, but they weren't the right fit for reasons I couldn't quite explain. I don't think that means my wife is "the One" or anything - there is no such thing - but I have never met anyone else I'm not related to by blood with whom I've shared this kind of connection and a romantic intent.
It's incredibly tough and painful to search for that needle in a haystack, and I'm sorry you're going through it. But I believe it's possible to find for the vast majority of people.
I could write a lot more on this subject, but this has probably been poetical enough for now. I hope this helps.
I’d warn the poster to be wary of descriptions like this of meeting “the one” - it seems already that she might be a bit too close to well marketed content that sells the dream of this experience of being a “lightning bolt from heaven”. That expectation is very appealing from romantic standpoint of lifting oneself out life’s mostly dreary mundanity…. However in my experience that/those incredibly intense first experiences have NEVER failed to be anything but (at best) the crushing disappointment of baseless assumptions meeting reality, and at worst the beginning of a “situation” with someone with highly questionable goals, morals and expectations
THE SUCCESSFUL relationships I’ve had have unfailing started with a tone of calm, comfort, and unexpectedly cosy familiarity. Not the emotional explosion everyone seems to want to hold out for, but is something that is a base to build on
THE SUCCESSFUL relationships I’ve had have unfailing started with a tone of calm, comfort, and unexpectedly cosy familiarity. Not the emotional explosion everyone seems to want to hold out for, but is something that is a base to build on
> THE SUCCESSFUL relationships I’ve had have unfailing started with a tone of calm, comfort, and unexpectedly cosy familiarity.
I think you're just describing the same thing, experienced differently, because we are different people.
My main point is that it's not uncommon at all to know, on some level, that what you have with a given person is very different from what you've had with others well before you're sure it's serious.
> However in my experience that/those incredibly intense first experiences have NEVER failed to be anything but (at best) the crushing disappointment of baseless assumptions meeting reality, and at worst the beginning of a “situation” with someone with highly questionable goals, morals and expectations
I'm sorry this has been your experience. And it's true, I am telling a cute version of the story that didn't include all the hard hard work of having an actual functioning relationship. Suffice it to say that there has been a huge amount of that, as well. Something being intense does not make it easy or healthy, you're right. But I also don't think OP is wrong to hope for something like that, or that it can't happen, and I think that it happening does not necessarily mean you'll end up in a "situation".
I think you're just describing the same thing, experienced differently, because we are different people.
My main point is that it's not uncommon at all to know, on some level, that what you have with a given person is very different from what you've had with others well before you're sure it's serious.
> However in my experience that/those incredibly intense first experiences have NEVER failed to be anything but (at best) the crushing disappointment of baseless assumptions meeting reality, and at worst the beginning of a “situation” with someone with highly questionable goals, morals and expectations
I'm sorry this has been your experience. And it's true, I am telling a cute version of the story that didn't include all the hard hard work of having an actual functioning relationship. Suffice it to say that there has been a huge amount of that, as well. Something being intense does not make it easy or healthy, you're right. But I also don't think OP is wrong to hope for something like that, or that it can't happen, and I think that it happening does not necessarily mean you'll end up in a "situation".
I loved your story
The best one I had just felt so easy when I met them. So simple, so easy. That’s the only way I can describe it :)
This mirrors my experience almost exactly - it's like lightning, and hasn't faded even over time.
I'd add it's been especially tough to date during the past two years due to the pandemic. Many high-quality people didn't even bother to be on the apps, so often the inventory wasn't very good, to say the least.
Once you find your needle and get to the other side of this process, it'll feel like you're finally home and you won't even remember all the near endless pain and nonsense you've been through to get there.
p.s. Sorry for chiming in so much in this thread, I'm super passionate about this topic and really feel for @actfrench. Successful dating has a high learning curve these days, to say the least. It's a huge topic, and I hope I've been at least somewhat helpful to you and other HNers.
I'd add it's been especially tough to date during the past two years due to the pandemic. Many high-quality people didn't even bother to be on the apps, so often the inventory wasn't very good, to say the least.
Once you find your needle and get to the other side of this process, it'll feel like you're finally home and you won't even remember all the near endless pain and nonsense you've been through to get there.
p.s. Sorry for chiming in so much in this thread, I'm super passionate about this topic and really feel for @actfrench. Successful dating has a high learning curve these days, to say the least. It's a huge topic, and I hope I've been at least somewhat helpful to you and other HNers.
You are a gem. I so appreciate you caring and all your wisdom metadat.
I think it is really important to remember how tough it is post-pandemic. Everyone is a little traumatized, unused to social interactions, sun deprived , under-exercised etcetera
Thank you thank you thank you so much for the chimes. It’s a topic I’m really passionate about too and if I do find a solution for myself I really want to use that knowledge to help others
I think it is really important to remember how tough it is post-pandemic. Everyone is a little traumatized, unused to social interactions, sun deprived , under-exercised etcetera
Thank you thank you thank you so much for the chimes. It’s a topic I’m really passionate about too and if I do find a solution for myself I really want to use that knowledge to help others
This is actually an incredibly wonderful, very validating and encouraging response.
I’ve been reading a bit about light tailed and heavy tailed systems and I think that this quite reflects the heavy -tailed nature of dating but also the magic and possibility .
I actually had a similar experience with meeting my first boyfriend on bumble and while he ultimately decided he didn’t want to have a child with me, it still makes me believe what you say is try and recognize it.
This does help and Thanks for the encouragement to keep moving forward.
Thank you so so much. And I’m so very happy for you that you found your true love. It’s probably also because you and your wife have big hearts that are ready to give and receive that kind of love. Your loving spirit is certainly reflected here in this generous note to me.
I’ve been reading a bit about light tailed and heavy tailed systems and I think that this quite reflects the heavy -tailed nature of dating but also the magic and possibility .
I actually had a similar experience with meeting my first boyfriend on bumble and while he ultimately decided he didn’t want to have a child with me, it still makes me believe what you say is try and recognize it.
This does help and Thanks for the encouragement to keep moving forward.
Thank you so so much. And I’m so very happy for you that you found your true love. It’s probably also because you and your wife have big hearts that are ready to give and receive that kind of love. Your loving spirit is certainly reflected here in this generous note to me.
Glad it helps! By the way, I showed what I wrote to my wife and she had three things to add: First, that I spelled lightning wrong. Second, that it's always a good idea to sit with yourself, think through all your non-superficial criteria, and try to turn them into a list where you know not just what you want, but why you want it. She hadn't been looking nearly as long as I had and she attributes a lot of her willingness to "make the call", as it were, to knowing exactly what she was looking for and why. It sounds like you may have already done that, in which case you are ahead of the game :).
The last thing she wondered about is whether you have been explicit with your therapist about your goals? Self-improvement is great, but therapists aren't only for that. They can also be valuable allies in things like this. Talking to a therapist was how she figured out the second piece of advice above.
> I actually had a similar experience with meeting my first boyfriend on bumble and while he ultimately decided he didn’t want to have a child with me, it still makes me believe what you say is try and recognize it.
This is another rough one - that sucks. I had something similar, a girl I liked quite a lot, who wasn't comfortable having an exclusive relationship with me (or anyone, I think, but I'm not sure), regardless of how much we liked each other. That one hurt a lot.
Anyway, we both wish you the best of luck!
The last thing she wondered about is whether you have been explicit with your therapist about your goals? Self-improvement is great, but therapists aren't only for that. They can also be valuable allies in things like this. Talking to a therapist was how she figured out the second piece of advice above.
> I actually had a similar experience with meeting my first boyfriend on bumble and while he ultimately decided he didn’t want to have a child with me, it still makes me believe what you say is try and recognize it.
This is another rough one - that sucks. I had something similar, a girl I liked quite a lot, who wasn't comfortable having an exclusive relationship with me (or anyone, I think, but I'm not sure), regardless of how much we liked each other. That one hurt a lot.
Anyway, we both wish you the best of luck!
I love you both. And I definitely need a partner who corrects my spelling and numerous typos. Better add that to the highly controversial checklist !
What leads you to believe it’s possible for the “vast majority”? Isn’t it far more likely that this sort of spark is relatively rare?
I guess I don't have hard evidence. But here's a statistical game I like to play:
Suppose that 0.0001% of the US population - a vanishingly small amount - could produce that "spark" for you, and are actively looking for someone. That's about 33,000 people. There's about 20,000 cities and towns in the US, according to Google, so on average, there's between 1 and 2 people in every city in the country who are the right person for you. And people move around, and a big city probably has proportionally many more people than a small town.
So if OP lives in a city with a million people in it, maybe there's 5 or 6 or 10 people who are the right fit. But they're looking, and so are you... so it's just a matter of time.
Like so many other things, it's just a numbers game.
Suppose that 0.0001% of the US population - a vanishingly small amount - could produce that "spark" for you, and are actively looking for someone. That's about 33,000 people. There's about 20,000 cities and towns in the US, according to Google, so on average, there's between 1 and 2 people in every city in the country who are the right person for you. And people move around, and a big city probably has proportionally many more people than a small town.
So if OP lives in a city with a million people in it, maybe there's 5 or 6 or 10 people who are the right fit. But they're looking, and so are you... so it's just a matter of time.
Like so many other things, it's just a numbers game.
Sorry to be this person, but 0.0001% is 1 in 1 million -- so about 330 people in the US.
So maybe need to settle for that 1 in 10,000 person-- 1 in a million is a bit tricky logistically.
So maybe need to settle for that 1 in 10,000 person-- 1 in a million is a bit tricky logistically.
I think your math is off. 0.0001% of US population is only about 300 people, so about 6 per US state. :)
Great question!!!!
I'm reading back again through all the comments on this thread- and I just want to say that yours is one of few that have provided me with real encouragement and validation and been respectful to women. I really want to thank you for being so kind and understanding and supporting me in moving forward.
I'm same age and a woman (but lesbian). My perspective is different though but I do understand.
My advice - don't focus on the end goal. Which seems to be multiple: - Be married - Have kids - Be in love
Those goals are all achievable by themselves and each one leads you toward the holy trinity.
Meet people that you can connect with. As a nerd who loves data analysis, you have 120 dates of data you can look into to determine trends. What was the good/bad parts of each date? That might help narrow things down for the future dates.
A lot of men are looking for atleast one of those (sometimes all of the above), but I've seen my male friends get overwhelmed for a lack of a better term when faced with all of them at once.
I know that's not the quick fix advice you want but I think that's the honest truth. There's lots of men out there.
Freezing your eggs is a possibility but I can understand the challenges/reluctance in that.
Good luck and I hope you will come back to this post in a year and add "PS. I found the love of my life and we're having twins!"
My advice - don't focus on the end goal. Which seems to be multiple: - Be married - Have kids - Be in love
Those goals are all achievable by themselves and each one leads you toward the holy trinity.
Meet people that you can connect with. As a nerd who loves data analysis, you have 120 dates of data you can look into to determine trends. What was the good/bad parts of each date? That might help narrow things down for the future dates.
A lot of men are looking for atleast one of those (sometimes all of the above), but I've seen my male friends get overwhelmed for a lack of a better term when faced with all of them at once.
I know that's not the quick fix advice you want but I think that's the honest truth. There's lots of men out there.
Freezing your eggs is a possibility but I can understand the challenges/reluctance in that.
Good luck and I hope you will come back to this post in a year and add "PS. I found the love of my life and we're having twins!"
Thank you for such a kind and encouraging note. I do think I get a little hung up on the order of these things . And I love the idea of looking at these as data points as opposed to , I’m so frustrated and defeated.
I think I also get overwhelmed by the number of options on dating apps.
I did freeze my eggs (thanks mom for the grand kids investment )
One thing I’ve learned as a tech entrepreneur is there aren’t quick fixes, not when hiring, not when building a company or finding love.
I really appreciate you and your kind, warm words.
I plan in trying everyone’s suggestions and I will circle back !
Many blessings , good vibes, big hugs or whatever you like in terms of positive intentions your way
I think I also get overwhelmed by the number of options on dating apps.
I did freeze my eggs (thanks mom for the grand kids investment )
One thing I’ve learned as a tech entrepreneur is there aren’t quick fixes, not when hiring, not when building a company or finding love.
I really appreciate you and your kind, warm words.
I plan in trying everyone’s suggestions and I will circle back !
Many blessings , good vibes, big hugs or whatever you like in terms of positive intentions your way
You're not going to like it, but I think the men you usually find attractive are out of your league
Also, unfortunately, in today's society, high value men have less incentive to settle down. That is sad. Someone desirable to you, probably is for many other girls too, and they know that
You might be a great person/woman, but might have something turning down people as well... I can't say. We, internet strangers, can't help without knowing you
Also, unfortunately, in today's society, high value men have less incentive to settle down. That is sad. Someone desirable to you, probably is for many other girls too, and they know that
You might be a great person/woman, but might have something turning down people as well... I can't say. We, internet strangers, can't help without knowing you
I don’t believe in the concept of out of your league or better or worse people . I don’t think there are better or worse people. I’ve dated all kind of guys, the last one I truly loved most people said was way “below my league” but love doesn’t work that way. It’s about fit.
Men and women have different qualifiers about leagues.
They often see career women as a negative so he might have viewed you as a lower league too.
This is fascinating. Describe that fit. What is it that drew you to him initially? What traits differentiate him from others you've met?
If your tastes are less aligned with typical as this suggests that bodes well for your prospects.
If your tastes are less aligned with typical as this suggests that bodes well for your prospects.
It just felt easy together. And I felt he deeply saw me for who I was.
And I like really sweet, super nerdy guys:)
Out of the 120, how many were sweet and super nerdy? What was their second date rate?
Along a different dimension, what indicia of nerdiness appeal to you?
This comment along with your reactions suggests a theory. Let's see if it validates :)
Along a different dimension, what indicia of nerdiness appeal to you?
This comment along with your reactions suggests a theory. Let's see if it validates :)
I liked the fact that they were outliers.
Attractive men who didn't know that they were attractive.
And appreciated and saw my intelligence.
And socially awkward, so I felt I had something to bring to the relationship and that I wouldn't have to compete too hard for them, like they'd be nicely tucked behind their computer away from other women to steal from me.
And very data-driven, scientific-minded, so I felt confident their caring meant something - and that they were honest, not manipulative.
And that my ability to present myself well and emotional intelligence was something of value to them, that they admired.
You answered the thing you feared to answer elsewhere :) Or perhaps there's more?
A lot of this makes sense. This seems consistent with my understanding of who you are. If your assessment of them was accurate, I'm surprised they left so readily. This makes me wonder what the 12 or so second dates would say.
I wonder if this suggests there were men you were even more interested in who you didn't go out with again because they seemed too perfect, because you felt you wouldn't be good enough.
A lot of this makes sense. This seems consistent with my understanding of who you are. If your assessment of them was accurate, I'm surprised they left so readily. This makes me wonder what the 12 or so second dates would say.
I wonder if this suggests there were men you were even more interested in who you didn't go out with again because they seemed too perfect, because you felt you wouldn't be good enough.
Personally, I don’t believe dates work for love. For lust, attraction, and curiosity/discovery, sure. But love is what grows over time after (continuous/regular) prolonged exposure. Mostly out of friendship. It is also one of those things that always seems to rise (as a feeling) when you least expect it and aren’t looking for it. Every couple I know met their significant other around study, family acquaintances, sports clubs, etc. Somewhere with a shared, safe(?), reason for being there out of which something grows.
Live your life, meet people. Stop looking desperately and just observe.
Live your life, meet people. Stop looking desperately and just observe.
There is data supporting what you write. The longer a man and woman has known eachother before starting dating, the less picky women get in regards to how physically attractive the man has to be according to a statistic that was looking at relationships.
Oddly I find that the longer I know someone, the less likely I am to be attracted to them in that sort of way.
That's actually a good thing, those feelings are a strong signal you probably wouldn't be a fit together.
This is beautiful. (maybe minus the stop looking desperately part, that's hard to enact)
My mom is/was not a great person overall but one thing she imparted to me at a young age sticks with me today: "dating is just divorce practice; either find friends or be a sperm donor"
No offense, but that's not advice it's just deep bitterness.
finding friends is really the best advice that can be given in just two words.
As someone in his early 40s, who plunged back into dating during covid after divorce, I guess I might be able to give a perspective from the other side, as it were? Or at least offer a few disconnected observations.
1) My dating age range was set to 30 to 45. After going on a couple of dates with 30 year olds (and bearing in mind that I was last dating in my early 30s), I switched to 36 to 45 because My Word, when did 30 year olds get so _young_? This is a long-winded way of saying that older men only wanting younger women is by no means a universal.
2) Some men really want children, and some really don't, but most will go along with whatever happens, and be happy if it does. Most of my male friends with children validate this: they are happy to have children, but admit it happened because it was what their partners wanted. This is a long-winded way of suggesting that when it comes to evaluating potential partners, the buckets should be "definitely doesn't want children" (so, not for you) and "everyone else". You don't need to only sample from the "definitely wants children soon" bucket. That bucket is tiny.
3) Being indelicate, after 30 people age very differently. Aging well makes you a catch :).
1) My dating age range was set to 30 to 45. After going on a couple of dates with 30 year olds (and bearing in mind that I was last dating in my early 30s), I switched to 36 to 45 because My Word, when did 30 year olds get so _young_? This is a long-winded way of saying that older men only wanting younger women is by no means a universal.
2) Some men really want children, and some really don't, but most will go along with whatever happens, and be happy if it does. Most of my male friends with children validate this: they are happy to have children, but admit it happened because it was what their partners wanted. This is a long-winded way of suggesting that when it comes to evaluating potential partners, the buckets should be "definitely doesn't want children" (so, not for you) and "everyone else". You don't need to only sample from the "definitely wants children soon" bucket. That bucket is tiny.
3) Being indelicate, after 30 people age very differently. Aging well makes you a catch :).
You are a sweetheart. Yeah, I definitely go after the guys with dating profiles that have no preferences and sometimes, no information:) Those ones are usually the outliers.
>Over the last two years I’ve been on over 120 dates with men I’ve met online - a few I met in person - in 3 different cities
I'd aim to reduce your rate of new dates over time by changing your criteria for whether to go or not. There is likely a mismatch between them and whatever your true preferences are. Obvious to focus on the specificity, but my hunch is that sensitivity is the key. Worth considering also that the pool of potential mates (spanning 3 cities) is vastly greater than almost anyone else at any time in history had access to, which also suggests that selection criteria are the important factor here.
>I’ve read and done the exercises in Calling In the One, Love Addiction, Datonomics, Make Your Move and If the Buddha dated. I’ve listened to every episode of Girls Gotta Eat.
Similarly, I'd also aim for quality over quantity in sources of advice. At a certain point, more advice will just dilute the concentration of good advice.
I'd aim to reduce your rate of new dates over time by changing your criteria for whether to go or not. There is likely a mismatch between them and whatever your true preferences are. Obvious to focus on the specificity, but my hunch is that sensitivity is the key. Worth considering also that the pool of potential mates (spanning 3 cities) is vastly greater than almost anyone else at any time in history had access to, which also suggests that selection criteria are the important factor here.
>I’ve read and done the exercises in Calling In the One, Love Addiction, Datonomics, Make Your Move and If the Buddha dated. I’ve listened to every episode of Girls Gotta Eat.
Similarly, I'd also aim for quality over quantity in sources of advice. At a certain point, more advice will just dilute the concentration of good advice.
Thank you so much for the data-driven advice! A lot of the other advice has been not so data-driven :) I guess soliciting Hacker News for advice falls in quantity over quality. Some of the advice has been outstanding, but other stuff has fallen more on the demoralizing side of things.
A good friend of mine once told me: "You can be a great mother or a great career woman. You can't be great at both." She's now a SVP at a well-known company, but got there by making a conscious decision to forgo raising a family of her own. You seem like a very busy person, so I have to ask: are you prepared to give it all up? Or are you just looking to check off a box of life's accomplishments, like a project manager sifting through the backlog in a frantic panic? Because if you're out of story points to assign you can't do it all.
Are you prepared to be the young lady I saw in the grocery store this evening - holding an infant in one arm and pushing the shopping carriage with the other, with a sweaty look of defeat on her face? If the answer is no, then don't have children. Sadly I think you have bought into the myth that you can have your cake and eat it too. I'm sure someone will reply with countless examples of how it is possible, but I ask are those examples of great parents, or are they examples of people who own children? Having a child and raising a family is a lifelong commitment. You need to give it your all. If you're doing it for the wrong reasons, bragging rights, because it was a life 'goal' etc.; the child, and by extension society, will suffer for it. You can still have a very fulfilling life.
My personal opinion - outsourcing your child's rearing to a full time nanny or dumping them off to childcare as many busy people do - is harmful to the child's development. Anecdotally speaking, some of the most successful people I know also have some of the most f--ked up kids I've ever seen. It's because they're never around to raise and discipline them properly.
Are you prepared to be the young lady I saw in the grocery store this evening - holding an infant in one arm and pushing the shopping carriage with the other, with a sweaty look of defeat on her face? If the answer is no, then don't have children. Sadly I think you have bought into the myth that you can have your cake and eat it too. I'm sure someone will reply with countless examples of how it is possible, but I ask are those examples of great parents, or are they examples of people who own children? Having a child and raising a family is a lifelong commitment. You need to give it your all. If you're doing it for the wrong reasons, bragging rights, because it was a life 'goal' etc.; the child, and by extension society, will suffer for it. You can still have a very fulfilling life.
My personal opinion - outsourcing your child's rearing to a full time nanny or dumping them off to childcare as many busy people do - is harmful to the child's development. Anecdotally speaking, some of the most successful people I know also have some of the most f--ked up kids I've ever seen. It's because they're never around to raise and discipline them properly.
I don’t agree… my mother was/is a career woman and is a great mother (she is 72 and just retired whilst I am 36). And I grew up with great mental health and high self esteem! I did well in school and university and have a job that pays well and leaves me with plenty of free time! I am also merrier with my high school sweetheart (20yo relationship) with our fist kid on the way… can’t really say my parents (both career people) did a poor job!
I have to say I agree. I work with some really high profile families with very successful moms and dads who are actively involved in their kid's lives. I think it's problematic to expect women to "do it all," but it's not impossible to have a meaningful career and also be a great, involved parent. Can also go the other way, of course.
People always parrot that advice as if it’s a fact, when there are ample counter examples out there in the world.
I'm not sure this will be at all helpful to you, but I will ahar a short story that had a meaningful impact on myself. I was at the point where I felt finding someone was hopeless (though now I realize I was still quite young). I was on a tour trip and spent a few days with a couple whom I learned found each other through an arraigned marriage. At first I was out off by the idea, but over the few days together l realized that they had something beautiful. They made a commitment to work together. After that I changed my efforts from finding a perfect match to finding someone I could work together with. Since then I have known my partner for 10 years and been married for over seven.
I like this story. It reminded to a video I saw the other day talking about how the romantic love from literature has shaped our expectations. I also believe finding the perfect person is really hard. However working on the relationship and overcoming difficulties is what really brings couples closer. At least I see it that way with my wife.
https://youtu.be/sPOuIyEJnbE
https://youtu.be/sPOuIyEJnbE
That’s lovely
I think arranged marriage can be incredibly successful. And people in arranged marriages do date. They often have the possibility to see options and say yes or no. One of the challenges of freedom is that it opens up our options so much that it can make it very hard to choose. But in an arranged marriage, the parents make sure values are aligned, that extended family gets along, the two people like each other well enough and then they grow to love each other. It's much more clearly laid out than modern dating. I heard a story of a Japanese man who was in an arranged marriage who proudly exclaimed, I love my life and it's only taken 15 years! :)
I don’t usually post, but I wanted to weigh in. We don’t usually know quickly if it’s going to work out with someone. If you can get that many dates, then you are attractive so don’t worry about that. And guys are attracted to you so don’t worry about that. Coffee is a perfect first date, and waiting until you are comfortable with a guy before intimacy is also fine - just don’t let the guy feel like you are using them. The right guy will not care if you make more money - you can weed them out that way. But for the others, try just taking it one step at a time. Be patient with them and yourself. The first few dates should only be about if you can laugh, have fun, and share honestly with each other. They should never insult you or put you down or purposefully make you ashamed of yourself or your life choices. They will certainly say the wrong things sometimes and mess up, its ok- just no pattern of it. We all make mistakes amd it can be hard to forgive. But serious long term relationships have to have forgiveness or they would end at the first mistake. Tell them you always wanted a family but previously work got in the way. Take the time to make a real connection and follow your heart. Date one person maybe 5 or 6 times, and if you don’t feel potential by then, pick another. Your success and ambition is attractive. You will succeed if you have patience with them. Good communication and being able to laugh together is essential. Pick those guys who you can talk and laugh with and go on one date every week or two with them. I know you will succeed and once you find that right guy it will all become so easy and move quickly after a short amount of time!
Coffee maybe fine for some people, but it's too sterile, formulaic, low-effort, and low-energy like a business meeting. I prefer to do something.
And don't waste 5-6 dates when you know in the first 1-2 if they're worth exploring more. There's too many people and you develop a sense about personality traits.
For example, I avoided a date with someone who presented themselves as a comedienne. She came off as arrogant and unwilling to listen to anyone else initially but I gave her a second try. Her set was so bad, I got up and left after she finished because I'm not going to say it was fantastic. I had a beer somewhere else. Lo and behold, who walks in but this same chick. I hoped she didn't see me but she came over and started bitching me the riot act. I told her that my suspicions were proven correct by her behavior and that she should get lost unless she wanted a face full of pepper spray. I told her to fuck off and let me enjoy my beer.
And don't waste 5-6 dates when you know in the first 1-2 if they're worth exploring more. There's too many people and you develop a sense about personality traits.
For example, I avoided a date with someone who presented themselves as a comedienne. She came off as arrogant and unwilling to listen to anyone else initially but I gave her a second try. Her set was so bad, I got up and left after she finished because I'm not going to say it was fantastic. I had a beer somewhere else. Lo and behold, who walks in but this same chick. I hoped she didn't see me but she came over and started bitching me the riot act. I told her that my suspicions were proven correct by her behavior and that she should get lost unless she wanted a face full of pepper spray. I told her to fuck off and let me enjoy my beer.
I like this advice a lot and how you write. It’s very kind. Thanks so much for the encouragement and taking the time to weigh in even though you don’t usually post. I appreciate it.
Hey! I'm a guy, single, 37, also living in Austin, and I have no idea what I'm doing with my own love life. I read a lot of my own feelings in what you write. If you'd like to meet someone with no weirdo agenda (or at least like, not worryingly weird), get in touch?
No pressure to respond, and I don't want to be an internet creep. I just thought you might like to know you're not the only one like us out there. You posting this here was so brave and I feel less alone just having read it.
No pressure to respond, and I don't want to be an internet creep. I just thought you might like to know you're not the only one like us out there. You posting this here was so brave and I feel less alone just having read it.
super let's meet! manisha[at]manisharose[dot]com :) Thank you for reaching out.
Having read a lot of this thread before seeing this, I keep wondering to myself, what must she look like? I think physical attraction is the first and most important thing to match on. After all, you really do need to fancy the other person. To go on over 100 dates without success had me thinking you must be unattractive. So, I went to your domain and saw you are obviously attractive (to me anyway - married, not looking for a date). It isn’t your looks is all I’m saying, so I guess this is a positive.
All I can add is my own experience. I found love when I was least expecting it. In a bar of all places, 2 weeks after arriving in a new country for a working holiday. Happily married for over 15 years with 2 kids. I was absolutely not looking for a relationship (how often have you heard the cliche that you find love when you least expect it?). I suggest focusing on who makes you feel good and puts a fire in your belly. Try to forget about kids and all the rest. That (hopefully) comes later, after you have found someone you like, as the relationship develops. Pressure and desperation won’t do you any favours. As difficult as it probably is with your current mindset, stop trying too hard. Live your life. What will be will be etc. Once you stop looking and trying too hard, you will probably discover something new. Certainly what you have been trying isn’t working! Good luck in life.
I love this advice and it definitely makes me feel good:) I agree that focusing on that loving partnership first is important. It's important to me, otherwise I would pursue other ways to have kids. Thanks very much for taking the time to share and to share kind words about me. It does make a difference.
Not sure it’s a good idea to post your personal coordinates on a public forum on a dating thread even in this “obfuscated” format. You’ll probably get some unwelcome attention or at least get spambot subscribed to “newsletters” and “offers” by random web scrapers.
At the very least op should ask whoever sends her an email to confirm that they are user “mtklein” by updating his hn profile about section with a random, unique, string she generates or something. Just to be sure they are the right person. Also rip her inbox.
I would of course be happy to do something like this. Safety first, absolutely.
Also, um, can we maybe be cool here folks? This is just two people meeting for the first time in a funny way. I understand what you might read into this, but please, let's not?
Incidentally I think it'd be kind of fun to be catfished for all my HN carma (karma?). Is that the number next to my login? I still have no idea what that means or does after all these years.
Also, um, can we maybe be cool here folks? This is just two people meeting for the first time in a funny way. I understand what you might read into this, but please, let's not?
Incidentally I think it'd be kind of fun to be catfished for all my HN carma (karma?). Is that the number next to my login? I still have no idea what that means or does after all these years.
+1 Yes, safety first.
We can be safe, but the world isn't safe.
We can be safe, but the world isn't safe.
The downvotes are at best amusing and at worst concerning, usually I don't comment on it but in this case I'm genuinely curious- who is against staying safe? Like, what!?? Please leave a comment instead, unless you're just bitterly trolling.
gosh! programmers dating!
Better safe than sorry. Likewise user “mtklein” should exercise caution. She may be after his carma. You’d be surprised to what lengths people go just to be able to downvote or flag others on here. o_O
/jk
/jk
Be careful mtklein- I may steal your karma ! I really do need some good karma :) I promise I’ll ask politely, I won’t steal though.
[deleted]
Yeah, I agree, bad idea. HN doesn't let users edit comments beyond a certain date, but perhaps the mods can scrub it for her if she decides to.
it's probably to late now, but it's better to put your email address into your profile where you can remove it later.
maybe you can ask @dang to remove the email from this comment.
maybe you can ask @dang to remove the email from this comment.
Good luck you two :)
So cute! Wishing you the best.
It sounds like you are earnestly trying. This is genuinely a difficult problem, so please do not get discouraged. You only need to succeed once.
A large part of the problem is that many men who wanted to be married are already paired off.
You may have to make tradeoffs for “willing to marry and have children” versus other aspects of what you want in a partner.
Out of all your friends who are (happily) married, could you see yourself with someone like their husband? If the answer is no, why not?
Also, if you are religious, have you thought of finding someone via those events?
A large part of the problem is that many men who wanted to be married are already paired off.
You may have to make tradeoffs for “willing to marry and have children” versus other aspects of what you want in a partner.
Out of all your friends who are (happily) married, could you see yourself with someone like their husband? If the answer is no, why not?
Also, if you are religious, have you thought of finding someone via those events?
This is a really good question. I think I need to look more deeply at my friends husbands. It’s been hard for me because I haven’t had a model for a good husband and I think this is a really good starting place. Thank you for a new insight !
I'm going to tell you what I think is the issue here.
You probably are not looking for the kind of advice that will actually work. Because that advice entails changing your end goal (lowering your standards) instead of merely changing your strategy. You are vehemently agreeing with the posts that flatter your "strategy" and disagreeing with the ones that get to the bottom of the issue (The men who will meet your standards can get young attractive women, they don't care if you are smart/successful.)
You also have an inflated sense of how smart you are. You are a humanities graduate running a generic education startup. Not the kind of tech genius you are painting yourself to be. You said you can't find any men as smart as you? Seriously? You can't find men smarter than you? Or is it that you have an inflated sense of how smart you are combined with a very narrow definition of what "smart" is?
I also looked at your twitter and you are not physically attractive enough to go on 120 dates and not find a match. Sure your friends will tell you you are beautiful but you are physically a 6.5/10. I don't say this to be mean, but to be honest. You are a 41 year old woman and you look like it. The kind of men you are looking for will not start dating you now. You seriously underestimate how much this factors in to the equation. I'm a 25 year old guy and you probably make more money than me, but I won't date you because I don't find you physically attractive enough. Men who have much more money than me would also probably feel the same.
You probably are not looking for the kind of advice that will actually work. Because that advice entails changing your end goal (lowering your standards) instead of merely changing your strategy. You are vehemently agreeing with the posts that flatter your "strategy" and disagreeing with the ones that get to the bottom of the issue (The men who will meet your standards can get young attractive women, they don't care if you are smart/successful.)
You also have an inflated sense of how smart you are. You are a humanities graduate running a generic education startup. Not the kind of tech genius you are painting yourself to be. You said you can't find any men as smart as you? Seriously? You can't find men smarter than you? Or is it that you have an inflated sense of how smart you are combined with a very narrow definition of what "smart" is?
I also looked at your twitter and you are not physically attractive enough to go on 120 dates and not find a match. Sure your friends will tell you you are beautiful but you are physically a 6.5/10. I don't say this to be mean, but to be honest. You are a 41 year old woman and you look like it. The kind of men you are looking for will not start dating you now. You seriously underestimate how much this factors in to the equation. I'm a 25 year old guy and you probably make more money than me, but I won't date you because I don't find you physically attractive enough. Men who have much more money than me would also probably feel the same.
Closeness comes from sheer amount of time spent together. I'm talking hundred+ hours just to get a new friend. Relationships beyond that require even more time.
Random dates are not the best way to fall in love, you want repeated interactions. People who you hang out with socially all the time.
This is why church/work/school have been traditional ways to find a partner. Lots of time spent close together talking and getting to know someone.
Odds are you aren't going to find yourself super duper into someone after one date. You need to do an objective judgment to see if there might be potential (good personality fit, right stage of life, etc) and go on a 2nd and 3rd date, preferably longer events, a day at a water park, skiing, whatever, just really spent time together.
Relationships can take months of interactions to blossom!
Source: I used to run a startup dedicated to helping people make friends and build long lasting relationships (non-romantic), all the research out there says the same thing: time time time!
Oh btw "love (lust) at first sight" is evolution's way of tricking us into spending lots of time with one person, thereby allowing a deeper relationship to form. (Or not in the case of people who just seek new relationship energy all the time)
Random dates are not the best way to fall in love, you want repeated interactions. People who you hang out with socially all the time.
This is why church/work/school have been traditional ways to find a partner. Lots of time spent close together talking and getting to know someone.
Odds are you aren't going to find yourself super duper into someone after one date. You need to do an objective judgment to see if there might be potential (good personality fit, right stage of life, etc) and go on a 2nd and 3rd date, preferably longer events, a day at a water park, skiing, whatever, just really spent time together.
Relationships can take months of interactions to blossom!
Source: I used to run a startup dedicated to helping people make friends and build long lasting relationships (non-romantic), all the research out there says the same thing: time time time!
Oh btw "love (lust) at first sight" is evolution's way of tricking us into spending lots of time with one person, thereby allowing a deeper relationship to form. (Or not in the case of people who just seek new relationship energy all the time)
Maybe it's time for an "Ask HN: Who's Single". I can't imagine there's only one person on here trying to find someone.
If politics are occasionally allowed on here, maybe that would be, too.
If politics are occasionally allowed on here, maybe that would be, too.
The problem with this thought is that HN tends to skew strongly male. I have no idea what current stats are, but, say, twelve years ago, surveys suggested active participants were as much as 98 percent male.
Dating apps tend to skew male, iirc, and it's a problem. I doubt they typically skew that far male.
I believe female representation has improved here over the years, but it probably still skews very strongly male.
Dating apps tend to skew male, iirc, and it's a problem. I doubt they typically skew that far male.
I believe female representation has improved here over the years, but it probably still skews very strongly male.
The HN meetups are still happening, right?
There are HN meetups? Do you have more information on this?
I've only seen the posts about them on HN--see these searches for context.[1] There was a flurry of submissions announcing them around ten years ago that quickly tapered off. The original DC group looks dead, and the much-praised HNLondon dissolved as well.
Most were organized using Meetup.com, and today, the site's 'Hacker News' topic lists a number of groups around the world.[2] Also relatively recent is this 2019 submission of a list of groups that has some meta discussion.[3] Raised there is a salient question: What, really, distinguishes an HN meetup from any other tech meetup?
[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?query=hn%20meetup&prefix=true & https://hn.algolia.com/?query=hacker%20news%20meetup&prefix=...
[2] https://www.meetup.com/topics/hacker-news/
[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19264764
Most were organized using Meetup.com, and today, the site's 'Hacker News' topic lists a number of groups around the world.[2] Also relatively recent is this 2019 submission of a list of groups that has some meta discussion.[3] Raised there is a salient question: What, really, distinguishes an HN meetup from any other tech meetup?
[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?query=hn%20meetup&prefix=true & https://hn.algolia.com/?query=hacker%20news%20meetup&prefix=...
[2] https://www.meetup.com/topics/hacker-news/
[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19264764
Probably deserves its own site or app.
Also, everyone is already on tinder, hinge, bumble, grindr etc.
Also, everyone is already on tinder, hinge, bumble, grindr etc.
Love it! I have to work up my courage a little more though :)
I absolutely love your honesty. Your willingness to put yourself out there and then not get defensive when people are a little bit harsh in their opinions is exceptionally rare.
Since I love children so much, it’s a little heartbreaking to hear your yearning. The one encouraging thing I can say is that you are insanely brave and you are an exceptionally clear thinker. I wish you the very best on your journey.
Since I love children so much, it’s a little heartbreaking to hear your yearning. The one encouraging thing I can say is that you are insanely brave and you are an exceptionally clear thinker. I wish you the very best on your journey.
You’re the best. It is a lot of ups and downs and when people like you are kind and encouraging it makes a big difference.
One thing I am grateful for is that as a teacher and an edtech entrepreneur I am fortunate to spend a good deal of time with children of my friends and customers and I love them all the more not having kids of my own. I’ve been fortunate to make some very deep friendships with young children , especially during this pandemic and I think that because I didn’t have my own it gave me more time and space to really grow close. So there’s always a silver lining. Plus, I don’t have to change diapers or defuse tantrums which is great :)
One thing I am grateful for is that as a teacher and an edtech entrepreneur I am fortunate to spend a good deal of time with children of my friends and customers and I love them all the more not having kids of my own. I’ve been fortunate to make some very deep friendships with young children , especially during this pandemic and I think that because I didn’t have my own it gave me more time and space to really grow close. So there’s always a silver lining. Plus, I don’t have to change diapers or defuse tantrums which is great :)
Want to know how much I enjoyed kids? Due to having a couple of handicapped kids I had to change diapers for 16 years straight. But somehow I never minded. So not even that needs to be a deal killer! Much love to you.
Someone once said to me, if anyone knew what it was really like to have kids, no one would ever have them! But then after you have them, the LOVE is so great.
Thank you for being kind and for the love you bring to your beautiful children. I am sure they bring and will continue to bring much love back into the world.
Much love back to you, Tomcam.
Thank you for being kind and for the love you bring to your beautiful children. I am sure they bring and will continue to bring much love back into the world.
Much love back to you, Tomcam.
You asked for a hack: Our culture is messing up your perception of the pool of available men.
500 years ago your possible mating pool was about 50 people, and the most attractive man you'd ever seen lived in your village, and you knew him.
Today advertising and the media is parading hundreds of impossibly attractive people in front of you every day. It messes with your perception of normal, and guys that you know can never measure up to the standards of guys in movies.
The only way out is to know that your standards have been artificially inflated and deliberately lower them.
Next time you go on a date compare the new man to the last 50 or so dates, if he's in the top half then marry him.
500 years ago your possible mating pool was about 50 people, and the most attractive man you'd ever seen lived in your village, and you knew him.
Today advertising and the media is parading hundreds of impossibly attractive people in front of you every day. It messes with your perception of normal, and guys that you know can never measure up to the standards of guys in movies.
The only way out is to know that your standards have been artificially inflated and deliberately lower them.
Next time you go on a date compare the new man to the last 50 or so dates, if he's in the top half then marry him.
My impression is that all the complex and time consuming things you have been doing, you are just doing in order to to leave a properly documented trail to convince yourself (mainly, as well as anyone else) that you made a good and proper effort, and that the lack of a result must be due to some uncontrollable external factors, and not something like your heart not being in it, or you're scared or reasons like that.
These are three options, there are more:
Option 1: Expand the pool - learn to be turned on by and interested in a wider variety of people.
Option 2: Convert an existing relationship, perhaps a platonic friendship, to a mutually beneficial partnership.
Option 3: Genuinely give up, allow yourself to relieve yourself of any expectations, and try to become mindful of the internal pressures you are applying on yourself as a reaction to your own childhood etc.
Option 1: Expand the pool - learn to be turned on by and interested in a wider variety of people.
Option 2: Convert an existing relationship, perhaps a platonic friendship, to a mutually beneficial partnership.
Option 3: Genuinely give up, allow yourself to relieve yourself of any expectations, and try to become mindful of the internal pressures you are applying on yourself as a reaction to your own childhood etc.
Option 2 sounds most interesting and fun. Option 3 is what feels most effective but also impossible to force.
Option 1 I have really really done. I’ve dated such a huge variety…
Option 1 I have really really done. I’ve dated such a huge variety…
In what sense were the people you dated varied? Gender? Age? Class? Race? Nationality? Geography? Lifestyle?
What are your expectations of your potential partner?
What are your expectations of your potential partner?
I wish you the best luck. My advice for the children part is: this is deeply personal and everyone is different, for me personally biological children would be out of the question at that age (esp given no current long-term partner). However there’s other options.
My sister had a 2 yo and was pregnant of 7 months when her husband had a sudden heart failure and passed away. It was as dramatic as you imagine.
She rebuilt her life, eventually meeting her current partner, a great guy who loves has her and her two children. They are a happy family, he is their dad.
Life throws hard balls sometimes, but it also surprises you. I guess my hack is “keep your eyes open, you might not get the limousine you wanted but you could get a tank instead, and tank are quite cool”.
I also think it would help if you mentioned something about why you think none of the previous 120 candidates didn’t work out.
Again, best of luck.
My sister had a 2 yo and was pregnant of 7 months when her husband had a sudden heart failure and passed away. It was as dramatic as you imagine.
She rebuilt her life, eventually meeting her current partner, a great guy who loves has her and her two children. They are a happy family, he is their dad.
Life throws hard balls sometimes, but it also surprises you. I guess my hack is “keep your eyes open, you might not get the limousine you wanted but you could get a tank instead, and tank are quite cool”.
I also think it would help if you mentioned something about why you think none of the previous 120 candidates didn’t work out.
Again, best of luck.
Sorry you're going through this. That sounds trying.
Was it Alaska that was described as "the odds are good, but the goods are odd" regarding the dating scene and overabundance of men? Maybe a summer in Anchorage is worth a try. You will lose Austin's amazing taco scene, but gain some glaciers :)
Was it Alaska that was described as "the odds are good, but the goods are odd" regarding the dating scene and overabundance of men? Maybe a summer in Anchorage is worth a try. You will lose Austin's amazing taco scene, but gain some glaciers :)
Sounds great !! Know anyone with a sublet there ? :)
Have all the rejections been from one side, or has there been a mix?
I don't think I have a great answer. Before I met my wife, it felt hopeless. I had dates and girlfriends, but no one I would want to spend the rest of my life with. And then I met my wife at work, and very quickly it felt obvious that I would spend the rest of my life with her.
I guess my point is that it isn't something you build up to, necessarily. It goes from "there is no way I could find a life partner" to "I can't imagine not being with this person" without much in between. It isn't like you start with someone where you say, "Oh, I could spend a few weeks with this person", move on to the one year person, before finally getting to the lifetime partner... it just happens.
I don't think I have a great answer. Before I met my wife, it felt hopeless. I had dates and girlfriends, but no one I would want to spend the rest of my life with. And then I met my wife at work, and very quickly it felt obvious that I would spend the rest of my life with her.
I guess my point is that it isn't something you build up to, necessarily. It goes from "there is no way I could find a life partner" to "I can't imagine not being with this person" without much in between. It isn't like you start with someone where you say, "Oh, I could spend a few weeks with this person", move on to the one year person, before finally getting to the lifetime partner... it just happens.
This advice really struck me and I think might allude to something that really has been blocking me from meeting someone. I think that I've had an expectation that guys would immediately know that I was someone that they'd want to spend the rest of their lives with and be really passionate about or else "they just weren't that into me." Maybe call me naive, and I am sure I am, but it's really helpful to see how it works of someone just enjoying time with you, and then after a few months or a year, realizing that they might want to keep doing that for the rest of their lives. This really helps. Thank you.
Personally speaking, formal dating never worked for me. It was always too much like a job interview, where both parties were looking for reasons to say “no”. The only meaningful relationships I’ve had so far in life were with women I met as friends in school or on one-night stands I didn’t want to end. I think in both cases this was because the fundamental dynamic was looking for reasons to say “yes”. If interviewing for full-time roles hasn’t worked for you, perhaps try a more freelance approach.
That makes a lot of sense. First, it follows the theory of just being friends without the pressure of something long-term. Having time to get to know someone. Also, the number of choices does make things harder.
Some ideas worth exploring.
1. Find a guy from a set that's undervalued. For example: 20-something shy nerd that's inexperienced with women, and doesn't have a lot of self confidence. In 10 years, they would probably be a "catch" but caught by someone else then. Think grad/law/med student at highly competitive technical university.
For example, read about Scott Aaronson's early adult years https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/01/the-blo... and the type of person who he could have connected to then.
Downside is you may not find them immediately attractive, but you need to have some perspective on what they will be like with a few years of maturity and self-confidence will bring. Note they may not be that actively dating, so it might require extra effort to meet, and the stigma some may attach to going out with someone 10-15 years younger.
2. Cosmetic surgery. Be brutally honest on what can take you from, say, an 8 to a 9. Guys like certain physical attributes, and in general may get you more attention even outside of a dating app.
3. Be more open to men you're not immediately attracted to. Perhaps you think they're obese--but that could be a reflection of being single in their 30s and 40s and being unmotivated. Guys can clean up real well if they have a reason to.
4. Go move to different city/countries for a few weeks or months. You'll likely get some attention as a new person and get some totally different types of men to date.
5. Hit up your married networks. Be shameless. Ask your female friends to ask their spouses if they know anyone at work. Could be "Yeah, Dave is a mess, just got divorced after his wife cheated on him--he needs someone sweet and understanding". DON'T ask for pictures before agreeing to date, just base it on your friend's character assessments.
1. Find a guy from a set that's undervalued. For example: 20-something shy nerd that's inexperienced with women, and doesn't have a lot of self confidence. In 10 years, they would probably be a "catch" but caught by someone else then. Think grad/law/med student at highly competitive technical university.
For example, read about Scott Aaronson's early adult years https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/01/the-blo... and the type of person who he could have connected to then.
Downside is you may not find them immediately attractive, but you need to have some perspective on what they will be like with a few years of maturity and self-confidence will bring. Note they may not be that actively dating, so it might require extra effort to meet, and the stigma some may attach to going out with someone 10-15 years younger.
2. Cosmetic surgery. Be brutally honest on what can take you from, say, an 8 to a 9. Guys like certain physical attributes, and in general may get you more attention even outside of a dating app.
3. Be more open to men you're not immediately attracted to. Perhaps you think they're obese--but that could be a reflection of being single in their 30s and 40s and being unmotivated. Guys can clean up real well if they have a reason to.
4. Go move to different city/countries for a few weeks or months. You'll likely get some attention as a new person and get some totally different types of men to date.
5. Hit up your married networks. Be shameless. Ask your female friends to ask their spouses if they know anyone at work. Could be "Yeah, Dave is a mess, just got divorced after his wife cheated on him--he needs someone sweet and understanding". DON'T ask for pictures before agreeing to date, just base it on your friend's character assessments.
> Cosmetic surgery. Be brutally honest on what can take you from, say, an 8 to a 9. Guys like certain physical attributes, and in general may get you more attention even outside of a dating app.
This way lies madness. Do not do this. Seriously, screw those guys who are not interested in you at your current attractiveness level (whatever it may be). If cosmetic surgery moves you up one notch on a 1-10 scale and that is what puts a guy over the edge, that’s not the guy you want IMO.
This way lies madness. Do not do this. Seriously, screw those guys who are not interested in you at your current attractiveness level (whatever it may be). If cosmetic surgery moves you up one notch on a 1-10 scale and that is what puts a guy over the edge, that’s not the guy you want IMO.
For many of us, cosmetic surgery is a point reduction. Hard pass.
Hi! You seem to be an exceptional woman. It has so many qualities. What man would be on your level? Powerful men don't care how much you earn or what position you hold. They have so many options that if you have a standard of beauty and femility, you won't attract them.
Lower your requirements and expectations. Look for what you have in common with the men you meet. If you look for men with status and beauty, you will only find people who are interested in status and beauty.
Automatically translated.
Lower your requirements and expectations. Look for what you have in common with the men you meet. If you look for men with status and beauty, you will only find people who are interested in status and beauty.
Automatically translated.
This is very poetic and good food for thought. Thank you.
Obviously it's hard to be insightful without knowing you. But having been on that many dates without any relationships would seem to indicate you're good at saying no.
Oftentimes people talk about lowering your standards if you aren't finding a mate. But that's basically impossible advice to take. Nobody thinks their standards are unreasonable or unrealistic.
I wonder if it might help to look for reasons to say yes. Yes to a less promising match, to a second date even if the first wasn't great.
My problem is that I say yes too easily which is a similar problem. And I that vein if you ever find yourself in Houston you should look me up. 39m, who knows? Maybe you'll start the trend of DateHN just like AskHN and ShowHN.
Oftentimes people talk about lowering your standards if you aren't finding a mate. But that's basically impossible advice to take. Nobody thinks their standards are unreasonable or unrealistic.
I wonder if it might help to look for reasons to say yes. Yes to a less promising match, to a second date even if the first wasn't great.
My problem is that I say yes too easily which is a similar problem. And I that vein if you ever find yourself in Houston you should look me up. 39m, who knows? Maybe you'll start the trend of DateHN just like AskHN and ShowHN.
> I wonder if it might help to look for reasons to say yes.
She should try it. It sounded very much like she focuses on finding reasons to say no.
She should try it. It sounded very much like she focuses on finding reasons to say no.
Well, let me start by reflecting a few things back at you that I've noticed you said.
- it sounds like you have no problem doing self work (therapy, meditation, working out, etc)
- it sounds like you have no problem trying new strategies around relationships
- it sounds like you have no problem getting first dates
So, it seems like the main problem is taking a potential partner, forming a serious relationship with them, and getting to the marriage point. The good news is you only need to do this successfully once. So it sounds like the deep question you need to solve is, why aren't any of these attempts working out?
I'd say the best advice I could offer for this is to follow up with people you've gone out with, and ask them why it didnt work out, and genuinely listen to what they say. You could say something like "Hey, I know it didnt work out between us, and that's okay. I'm seriously looking for a partner, and I've been struggling. Could you tell me more about what our interaction/relationship/date experience (pick the best term for the person here) looked like from your perspective? I think feedback you could give me would be help, and I'd be really appreciative"
For more misc advice I'd also say
- It sounds like youre spending a lot of time trying a lot of things and going on a lot of dates. Maybe try scaling things back so youre putting more effort into fewer things that have a higher potential. So it sounds like you have very clear relationship goals (marriage, kids, etc). I'd be very upfront about that (maybe mention it on apps, but at least on the first date 100% for sure). Cause like if they dont have the same goals, or are unsure, probably both people's time is getting wasted
- Check out the youtube channel healthgamergg. Its done by a guy who was a former yogi, and now is a physiatrist. The content is very therapy related, but he talks a lot about people who have a hard time with relationships. I think the quality of the stuff he makes is extremely high, and I've gotten a lot of value from it personally, so maybe you might as well.
- it sounds like you have no problem doing self work (therapy, meditation, working out, etc)
- it sounds like you have no problem trying new strategies around relationships
- it sounds like you have no problem getting first dates
So, it seems like the main problem is taking a potential partner, forming a serious relationship with them, and getting to the marriage point. The good news is you only need to do this successfully once. So it sounds like the deep question you need to solve is, why aren't any of these attempts working out?
I'd say the best advice I could offer for this is to follow up with people you've gone out with, and ask them why it didnt work out, and genuinely listen to what they say. You could say something like "Hey, I know it didnt work out between us, and that's okay. I'm seriously looking for a partner, and I've been struggling. Could you tell me more about what our interaction/relationship/date experience (pick the best term for the person here) looked like from your perspective? I think feedback you could give me would be help, and I'd be really appreciative"
For more misc advice I'd also say
- It sounds like youre spending a lot of time trying a lot of things and going on a lot of dates. Maybe try scaling things back so youre putting more effort into fewer things that have a higher potential. So it sounds like you have very clear relationship goals (marriage, kids, etc). I'd be very upfront about that (maybe mention it on apps, but at least on the first date 100% for sure). Cause like if they dont have the same goals, or are unsure, probably both people's time is getting wasted
- Check out the youtube channel healthgamergg. Its done by a guy who was a former yogi, and now is a physiatrist. The content is very therapy related, but he talks a lot about people who have a hard time with relationships. I think the quality of the stuff he makes is extremely high, and I've gotten a lot of value from it personally, so maybe you might as well.
Let’s start with the unpleasant. You are old and female. The best catches, as relationship minded males, are off the game board. Secondly, as an old female your expectations are likely unrealistic compared to what’s available yet simultaneously the more you date the more exhausted and desperate you will get.
The pleasant: Since you are an older single professional you have money, which means you have options. You also have your educational and career history which should provide you an awareness of the world and people that younger people don’t have, but then this assumption is only 50/50 as there are plenty of older people who are single because they are borderline autistic.
I strongly recommend not being too reliant on dating apps to meet people. All old single people do this out of desperation/convenience, which pools the desperate people together. It takes more work, especially if you are low in extroversion, to meet real people in the real world but your odds are so much better. Set your expectations low, relax, and try to have fun with it. The best benefit of being single is the freedom to do things married people with kids can’t, so keep trying to meet real people and not rush it.
The pleasant: Since you are an older single professional you have money, which means you have options. You also have your educational and career history which should provide you an awareness of the world and people that younger people don’t have, but then this assumption is only 50/50 as there are plenty of older people who are single because they are borderline autistic.
I strongly recommend not being too reliant on dating apps to meet people. All old single people do this out of desperation/convenience, which pools the desperate people together. It takes more work, especially if you are low in extroversion, to meet real people in the real world but your odds are so much better. Set your expectations low, relax, and try to have fun with it. The best benefit of being single is the freedom to do things married people with kids can’t, so keep trying to meet real people and not rush it.
I’m old and female ?!! That’s horrible. I don’t even know where to start. Don’t people live longer these days ? I don’t feel old. I don’t think I look old. I’ve got lots Id energy ! :)
> I don’t feel old.
Nobody does. I'm 43 male and I'm old. Even though I my mentality didn't change much sice I was 16.
It's not intended as discouragement. You have right to build your happiness at any age.
Nobody does. I'm 43 male and I'm old. Even though I my mentality didn't change much sice I was 16.
It's not intended as discouragement. You have right to build your happiness at any age.
> I’m old and female ?!! That’s horrible.
All that matters, for this discussion, is the age of forming relationships according to statics. Females are ready to settle down around 22-28. From about 28-32 females that have not already had children and are not in a long term relationship are confronted by an internal biological clock that is running out. Males are ready to settle down around 26-32. That male clock is governed by the rapid decrease of sex hormone driving high risk behavior. That male window happens to overlap with that later female clock most deliberately driving a reproductive motive. This is not a coincidence. It is evolution that drives mating behavior in a very real survival sense.
In that context 41 is very old. I don't feel old either, look about 7-8 years younger than I really am, and I am older than you. I can still push my pulse above 200 bps during exercise and still do many things people much younger than me cannot. Even still, I am still human and my biological clock continues moving forward at the regular rate just like everybody else.
All that matters, for this discussion, is the age of forming relationships according to statics. Females are ready to settle down around 22-28. From about 28-32 females that have not already had children and are not in a long term relationship are confronted by an internal biological clock that is running out. Males are ready to settle down around 26-32. That male clock is governed by the rapid decrease of sex hormone driving high risk behavior. That male window happens to overlap with that later female clock most deliberately driving a reproductive motive. This is not a coincidence. It is evolution that drives mating behavior in a very real survival sense.
In that context 41 is very old. I don't feel old either, look about 7-8 years younger than I really am, and I am older than you. I can still push my pulse above 200 bps during exercise and still do many things people much younger than me cannot. Even still, I am still human and my biological clock continues moving forward at the regular rate just like everybody else.
In my experience, stop looking and it'll find you. I met my wife on the beach, basically randomly. Neither of us wanted a relationship at the time, we just enjoyed talking to each other so much. Our "first date" was to a hiking meetup, where we ditched everyone and broke into a park after-hours, explored shit, and at some point, kissed, while hiding from the park rangers.
But seriously, just stop looking.
But seriously, just stop looking.
This is not a good advice. You got lucky despite not looking - recognise that. A slightly better version is "make sure you're open to opportunities outside of explicit dating context".
All my best/favorite relationships came when explicitly not looking for anything. If it sounds counter-intuitive, it really is. Kinda like turning right on a motorcycle to go left. There’s no harm in trying it for a couple of months, in the worst case, you don’t meet anyone.
But “bad advice?” That’s pushing it.
But “bad advice?” That’s pushing it.
Not bad because it's untrue, but because it's just incidental to something more specific. For example concentrating on your hobbies and getting to know people that way, or finding some new group activity, or spending more time with friends and converting one, or just being in places you enjoy rather than spending time on internet dating is a specific thing to do that works for finding someone compatible. But if you only stop looking, that's not going to work - that's the cause/effect swapped.
It's not incidental. If you think about the attributes of the person you want to spend the rest of your life with, and the attributes you want them to see in you, either implied or explicitly, one of those attributes will most likely be "happy." Most people don't want to seriously date angry/sad/etc people, but who knows. Either way, if dating and "looking" is making you not-happy (which is the sense I got from OP's post), then you need to stop. Because even if you found someone, the odds of them wanting to continue with someone who doesn't come across as happy is nil.
It might be worth clarifying the definition of "happy." I'm not talking about all smiles and shit, you can get angry, even as a "happy person". I mean more like the source of happiness comes from within. Your spouse's job is not to make you happy, no one is on this planet to make you happy. The only person who can make you happy is yourself, so find what brings you joy and do that thing, but try to make it a thing that is around other people doing something similar (not sitting in a house all alone).
If you are happy, content, etc, people will subconsciously seek you out just as we all subconsciously seek out those people to be in our lives. Oh, and get outside your friend group ... like, way outside it. There's a lot more to it than that and I've hand-waved a lot of it, but I'd have to write a book and I really don't want to.
It might be worth clarifying the definition of "happy." I'm not talking about all smiles and shit, you can get angry, even as a "happy person". I mean more like the source of happiness comes from within. Your spouse's job is not to make you happy, no one is on this planet to make you happy. The only person who can make you happy is yourself, so find what brings you joy and do that thing, but try to make it a thing that is around other people doing something similar (not sitting in a house all alone).
If you are happy, content, etc, people will subconsciously seek you out just as we all subconsciously seek out those people to be in our lives. Oh, and get outside your friend group ... like, way outside it. There's a lot more to it than that and I've hand-waved a lot of it, but I'd have to write a book and I really don't want to.
I think you agree with me, we just have a different way of describing this - because I agree with everything you said apart from "It's not incidental" which I'd replace with "that's why it's incidental" :-)
This is terrible advice if "doing nothing" results in OP staying at home or otherwise not being in situations likely to intersect with new potential mates.
Different things work for different people. Glad not looking worked out nicely for you!
Different things work for different people. Glad not looking worked out nicely for you!
I get the point, but maybe that looking desperate puts people off, so being more relaxed could help. I recall being dismay that when single no one showed interest, while in a relationship women seems to ask me out (still rarely, but not 0)... Long story short I think the message is don't be too intense, but be honest you're looking for a relationship and not a hookup.
Haha, that’s another bit of advice: put a wedding ring on. I would hardly ever get hit on until I put my wedding ring on. Then it was like they came out of the woodwork every weekend I went out. No idea if any of those would ever manifest an actual relationship, but could be worth trying.
If putting on a wedding ring attracts guys who want to get married, I'd be pretty surprised. Or kind of curious about why a guy who wants to get married would be going after a married woman! On the other hand, if it leads to friendship without the pressure, why not?
I think being honest with yourself - and others by extension is the key. Someone else won't MAKE you happy. And no one really knows they want to marry and have kids with someone they just met on a first date. It's so hypothetical. So be honest with yourself and that will flow into your relations with others.
When I met my wife, the very first night, we had a really open and honest conversation about where we were/what we wanted, including talking about marriage (not to each other specifically, just we were looking to settle down). It was nice to not dance around those topics as if they were taboo, or wonder if we were wasting time by not having similar objectives.
So this is interesting..."stop looking and it'll find you." is advice I've heard from so many people, dear friends, spiritual teachers I know and respect.
And yet, I find it virtually impossible to willfully cause myself to "stop looking."
And especially when I'm stop looking in order to find something. I can't pretend that I'm not. And I can't stop trying to find something.
I will add - and this is a little more personal info than I wanted to share - but I've bared so much personal information already, so what the heck, is I say this as someone who has spent over six months living in a zen monastery practicing non-attachment, among other spiritual and psychological exercises.
So how do you stop looking? Is that even possible? Or does it just happen?
Feels like an elephant.
And yet, I find it virtually impossible to willfully cause myself to "stop looking."
And especially when I'm stop looking in order to find something. I can't pretend that I'm not. And I can't stop trying to find something.
I will add - and this is a little more personal info than I wanted to share - but I've bared so much personal information already, so what the heck, is I say this as someone who has spent over six months living in a zen monastery practicing non-attachment, among other spiritual and psychological exercises.
So how do you stop looking? Is that even possible? Or does it just happen?
Feels like an elephant.
> So how do you stop looking? Is that even possible? Or does it just happen?
So, just to put it in perspective, I did this at ~30 years old. My wife is a few years older than me. Instead of trying to find a partner, boyfriend, or whatever, go looking for a single friend. IOW, change what you're looking for.
1. It's a lot easier to find friends than potential life partners.
2. Expanding your network increases the odds of finding potential life partners.
3. IME, turning a budding friendship into a relationship is relatively easy if both people are willing. Also, if either one isn't willing, it won't really harm the friendship because it is so new.
As an adult, making new friends is a bit harder than when we're younger. Hit up meetup.com and just start going to random things that might be interesting to you. Or ask your existing friends to invite you on random outings they have with their friends (you've probably got a "gateway friend"[1] that has lots of friends that don't overlap with your friends) and just start meeting people with the sole goal of making new friends.
Your secondary goal is to find a life partner, but don't make it your primary one. Eventually, you just start making friends everywhere you go (it took me almost a year), stop caring about the life partner part, and during that time I had zero relationships. At the end of that, 90% of my friends were women that I never had a physical relationship with. When I met my wife, we just sat and talked for hours, and then I knew it was different than any other friendship I'd had in the last year. We exchanged numbers and then talked for hours yet again and again. At no point was there talk of a relationship or anything more, in fact, we weren't officially dating until about ~2 months after we met, but we were inseparable after ~3 weeks.
There were a ton of failures along the way though, especially near the beginning. Some truly cringe-worthy moments that I'll take to the grave. But it was worth it, in the end.
[1]: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10791-012-9190-3
So, just to put it in perspective, I did this at ~30 years old. My wife is a few years older than me. Instead of trying to find a partner, boyfriend, or whatever, go looking for a single friend. IOW, change what you're looking for.
1. It's a lot easier to find friends than potential life partners.
2. Expanding your network increases the odds of finding potential life partners.
3. IME, turning a budding friendship into a relationship is relatively easy if both people are willing. Also, if either one isn't willing, it won't really harm the friendship because it is so new.
As an adult, making new friends is a bit harder than when we're younger. Hit up meetup.com and just start going to random things that might be interesting to you. Or ask your existing friends to invite you on random outings they have with their friends (you've probably got a "gateway friend"[1] that has lots of friends that don't overlap with your friends) and just start meeting people with the sole goal of making new friends.
Your secondary goal is to find a life partner, but don't make it your primary one. Eventually, you just start making friends everywhere you go (it took me almost a year), stop caring about the life partner part, and during that time I had zero relationships. At the end of that, 90% of my friends were women that I never had a physical relationship with. When I met my wife, we just sat and talked for hours, and then I knew it was different than any other friendship I'd had in the last year. We exchanged numbers and then talked for hours yet again and again. At no point was there talk of a relationship or anything more, in fact, we weren't officially dating until about ~2 months after we met, but we were inseparable after ~3 weeks.
There were a ton of failures along the way though, especially near the beginning. Some truly cringe-worthy moments that I'll take to the grave. But it was worth it, in the end.
[1]: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10791-012-9190-3
Lol. This is the most common advice but pretty difficult to willfully enact.
Sorry to be blunt but it seems that you might just be too picky. The few men you found attractive may have been "out of your league" and just trying to hook up. They ghosted you when they understood you were looking for something different. And they may have skewed your perception of what is really attainable. Have you tried dating men that you would consider a bit less attractive? Older men? Divorced men? etc. Attraction isn't always instantaneous and can develop over time if you give it a chance. As an encouragement, you do sound intelligent and kind. Good luck!
Dating is game theory, both people try to get someone better than themselves. Naturally it's impossible to find equilibrium. Unfortunately Satoshi Nakamoto did not find a solution to this problem
Religion found a solution to this, although it's not a solution that many people like. Unfortunately religion is thought to be a collection of beliefs, but in practice it's largely about regulating sexual desires which lead to a healthy relationship and then a family. I'm not saying it's the only solution or even desirable, but that there doesn't seem to be a secular alternative.
I actually would really love to “solve this problem” for women like me. Maybe I’m being overly ambitious if Satoshi couldn’t do it. It’s actually oddly encouraging to think what I’m trying to do is hare Ave elusive, rather than a personal failure. It inspires me:)
If you have not, I suggest reading Dale Carnegie's book, "How to Win Friends and Influence People." You might also consider the associated "Dale Carnegie Course."
The book is a perennial favorite. I return to it before big work events, job interviews, or as I feel my interpersonal skills shift from my desired norm. The course was instrumental in setting those norms by encouraging a deep interest in individuals and improving my speaking and (more importantly) listening skills.
I largely credit Dale Carnegie's teachings for my marriage.
The book is a perennial favorite. I return to it before big work events, job interviews, or as I feel my interpersonal skills shift from my desired norm. The course was instrumental in setting those norms by encouraging a deep interest in individuals and improving my speaking and (more importantly) listening skills.
I largely credit Dale Carnegie's teachings for my marriage.
Wow, so wonderful ! My mentor and startup investor told me to read this years ago so it’s about time I read it!
Great book list coming from this conversation !
Great book list coming from this conversation !
Do you have any close male friends? What is their advice? Do they have single male friends to introduce you to?
What has gone wrong in previous dating relationships? Nothing stuck? Ghosted?
Marriage is a game of 'good enough' not soulmates, and I think a lot of chagrin over the whole thing comes from this.
You've come to the right forum for being given advice by a bunch of men. Good luck
What has gone wrong in previous dating relationships? Nothing stuck? Ghosted?
Marriage is a game of 'good enough' not soulmates, and I think a lot of chagrin over the whole thing comes from this.
You've come to the right forum for being given advice by a bunch of men. Good luck
The point of getting advice from make friends is a very good one. They just need to be closer enough to honestly point out what is wrong (and what isn't).
I am often surprised how I misinterpret some behaviors of women. I am lucky to have a very, very good female friend (something like a sister, with all the posts and minuses :)) who does the translation for me.
I am often surprised how I misinterpret some behaviors of women. I am lucky to have a very, very good female friend (something like a sister, with all the posts and minuses :)) who does the translation for me.
There is a solid system that I have seen work quite well in the workplace and a few of my colleagues relationships.
https://issendai.com/psychology/sick-systems.html
Use demographics to your advantage.
An obvious example: Chinese men have to clear a very high bar to be marriage material because of the shortage of women. Take advantage of this. You could start learning a martial art popular in China, then do an extended trip over there to “study” that style. That would give you the excuse to meet thousands of men self selected for attractive traits and a setting for in depth interaction several hours a day.
Hire a private researcher like gwern.org to research a source of unfair demographic advantage for you. I think Elisabeth from LessWrong is also available for arbitrary research hire but I don’t remember her website. Maybe someone else can link?
https://issendai.com/psychology/sick-systems.html
Use demographics to your advantage.
An obvious example: Chinese men have to clear a very high bar to be marriage material because of the shortage of women. Take advantage of this. You could start learning a martial art popular in China, then do an extended trip over there to “study” that style. That would give you the excuse to meet thousands of men self selected for attractive traits and a setting for in depth interaction several hours a day.
Hire a private researcher like gwern.org to research a source of unfair demographic advantage for you. I think Elisabeth from LessWrong is also available for arbitrary research hire but I don’t remember her website. Maybe someone else can link?
I really, really hope this is sarcasm. The original article and its follow up [1] make it clear how this isn't sustainable in the personal relationships case (not to mention grossly unethical).
[1] http://www.issendai.com/psychology/sick-systems-whittling-yo...
[1] http://www.issendai.com/psychology/sick-systems-whittling-yo...
English is not my native language. But I have some advice for you to learn from the best (not from me):
There is 99.99% of everyone comments in this thread who can't give you the best advice - because everyone is not enlightened.
You should try to learn/understand Buddha. He is a real person, he left the throne and didn't live a family life. Try to find basic Buddhist books, I believe you'll be happier when you understand monk don't want to get married.
There is 99.99% of everyone comments in this thread who can't give you the best advice - because everyone is not enlightened.
You should try to learn/understand Buddha. He is a real person, he left the throne and didn't live a family life. Try to find basic Buddhist books, I believe you'll be happier when you understand monk don't want to get married.
It's a good thought and I've actually spent quite a bit of time practicing in zen communities, participating in sessins and even was a resident at a zen temple for six months. I find Buddhists actually often lead a pretty lonely life. Hasn't done much for my dating life but has helped me in innumerable other ways. I'm also a huge fan of Jesus Chris, Mohammed - and Sufis in general, not a great parallel since it's a mystical branch of Islam, not a prophet, but you get the idea.
This kind of 'helpful' advice creates resentment: it's like shoving your favorite vegan dish to a steak lover who came specifically to eat a good steak.
And if such posts were allowed/encouraged it won't be long before dozens of other people appear asking us to embrace Allah and his prophet, or whether we have accepted Jesus as our Lord and savior, … it helps nobody.
Very literally the poster said, preliminarily, that his expression may not be perfect out of linguistic challenges, and content wise, that the submitter should use the recommended literature to understand why some do not want to pass through the contextual experience.
I’m going to provide you with some horrible advice. Please don’t take it.
Date married men.
There are a huge number of married men in my social group who want to have kids, but their spouse is unable or unwilling. These men sound just as forlorn as you.
One finally divorced his wife and is engaged to a woman with two young sons. I’ve never seen him as happy.
I’d estimate that 10% of my married male friends are in this circumstance. Half are deeply committed to their wives, but the other half could be swayed by the opportunity for a family. Those 10% of men, are significantly better catches than any of my still unmarried friends.
My unmarried friends have mental illness, drug/alcohol addiction, or… both. One has a significant physical disability. It’s a horrible pool to date from.
Again, disregard my advice.. but that’s what I’d do if I were you.
Date married men.
There are a huge number of married men in my social group who want to have kids, but their spouse is unable or unwilling. These men sound just as forlorn as you.
One finally divorced his wife and is engaged to a woman with two young sons. I’ve never seen him as happy.
I’d estimate that 10% of my married male friends are in this circumstance. Half are deeply committed to their wives, but the other half could be swayed by the opportunity for a family. Those 10% of men, are significantly better catches than any of my still unmarried friends.
My unmarried friends have mental illness, drug/alcohol addiction, or… both. One has a significant physical disability. It’s a horrible pool to date from.
Again, disregard my advice.. but that’s what I’d do if I were you.
I appreciate you thinking outside the box.
Usually I think of being attracted to a married man as being attracted to someone unavailable.
I would be wary about doing this as I wouldn't want to hurt another woman.
However, I think that there can be a nice compromise where I make friends with more men, perhaps some of whom are married, if their wife knows about it.
I do think that a lot of marriages are unhappy, which is why being selective isn't such a bad thing.
It's better to be single than stuck in an unhappy relationship, in my point of view.
Thanks again for thinking outside the box.
And the way you phrased things made me smile.
I see your logic, but it seems fundamentally unsound to consider settling down for life with a cheater. And if I daresay, immoral as well.
Most people find a relationship in fewer than 120 dates. What's been the barrier for you?
One thing to note: IME it's extremely tough to connect emotionally with a stranger over FaceTime. Once I realized this, I stopped counting my 100+ FTs as real dates.
My humble suggestion is to meet someone as soon as possible once you know you're interested (in a safe setting, ofc). This really cut down on churn for me.
There is no replacement for real-life live interaction!
My humble suggestion is to meet someone as soon as possible once you know you're interested (in a safe setting, ofc). This really cut down on churn for me.
There is no replacement for real-life live interaction!
I don’t know . I think that’s the problem.
You don't like the fellas you went out with? 0 for 120? Surely at least a few of them liked you. How many 2nd and 3rd dates did you have?
Almost all of them asked me out again, but there were really compelling reasons it wasn’t a fit. The ones I did go out with again and I really tried to stretch myself, usually ended up ghosting me. I think they were playing the field.
>but there were really compelling reasons it wasn’t a fit
Care to elaborate?
Care to elaborate?
What are some of those reasons? To many here, it sounds like you're being too picky.
Almost 120 men asked you on a second date and you always found compelling reasons to not accept?
I think we have a winner.
I think we have a winner.
Ffs. This piece of information should be sticked
This is literally the meme situation https://i.redd.it/zm3wo9fg9uv81.jpg
This is literally the meme situation https://i.redd.it/zm3wo9fg9uv81.jpg
i think there are a shortage of men who want to have a baby with a 41 year old woman. market dynamics.
True that. An older woman makes me think birth defects, less agreeable, more jaded, less spontaneous, less flexible, worrying more, and less energetic for weekend adventures. These are mostly stereotypes that don't hold for all cases. The birth defects part is the only statistical one.
I (44m S NM NK MAANG) inadvertently have much younger gfs (19-27), Master's- / PhD-types who also tend to be more emotionally and life mature than most people of any age. I guess it might be "market dynamics" when I'm dating them and they announce that they're bi or pan, whether it's a college phase or they're actually that. I don't understand why that happens or why women try to set me up with other women. It doesn't make sense. I piss with the equipment I was issued and don't look a gift horse.
I (44m S NM NK MAANG) inadvertently have much younger gfs (19-27), Master's- / PhD-types who also tend to be more emotionally and life mature than most people of any age. I guess it might be "market dynamics" when I'm dating them and they announce that they're bi or pan, whether it's a college phase or they're actually that. I don't understand why that happens or why women try to set me up with other women. It doesn't make sense. I piss with the equipment I was issued and don't look a gift horse.
im not sure we are suppose to have preferences, these days.
Sorry, I don't know what you mean by that. If "supposed" implies judgements from vague "them", I don't really care what "they" think.
good
Numbers don't mean much either way. I used to date quantities of women randomly without any consideration to fit but they revealed themselves to be poor fits.
Smoking, drugs, bad habits, already had kids, alcoholism, emotional instability, poor attitude, ego out-of-control, lack of intellectual curiosity, judgmental (conservative or hipster), too boring, not many hobbies, low self-confidence, jealousy issues, cheater-type behaviors, psycho (cluster A B or C), external locus-of-control, taker rather than giver, and/or lack of excellence.
There's tons of women I've met who seem like catches but they're invariably coupled.
PS: What's weird in my life recently is coupled women wanting to be "friends" with me. I'm fine if that's what it is, but the vibes and actions are incongruent to that.
Smoking, drugs, bad habits, already had kids, alcoholism, emotional instability, poor attitude, ego out-of-control, lack of intellectual curiosity, judgmental (conservative or hipster), too boring, not many hobbies, low self-confidence, jealousy issues, cheater-type behaviors, psycho (cluster A B or C), external locus-of-control, taker rather than giver, and/or lack of excellence.
There's tons of women I've met who seem like catches but they're invariably coupled.
PS: What's weird in my life recently is coupled women wanting to be "friends" with me. I'm fine if that's what it is, but the vibes and actions are incongruent to that.
I am reading and cheering your openness and vulnerability -- it seems to have sparked vulnerability in your commenters.
I'm a man, 53 now and 5 years divorced with one wonderful daughter 15.
There have been a lot of pitfalls along the way and one of the deepest, for me, was not being able to be honest with myself about my goals. So hearing about your life and choices honestly has me scratching my head here, since you are nothing if not clear eyed.
I guess I'd have to say that the pool you are fishing in is overfished maybe? Any chance you could change the pool perhaps? Differently educated, differently abled, different culture perhaps?
Anyhow I am inspired to reach out more myself. I admire your candour.
I'm a man, 53 now and 5 years divorced with one wonderful daughter 15.
There have been a lot of pitfalls along the way and one of the deepest, for me, was not being able to be honest with myself about my goals. So hearing about your life and choices honestly has me scratching my head here, since you are nothing if not clear eyed.
I guess I'd have to say that the pool you are fishing in is overfished maybe? Any chance you could change the pool perhaps? Differently educated, differently abled, different culture perhaps?
Anyhow I am inspired to reach out more myself. I admire your candour.
Thank you. I was starting to feel pretty discouraged reading some of these comments, so I appreciate you saying kind things.
I have two close friends who found themselves in your situation but are now in their 50s. One remains single and the other doesn't. The one who married chose someone who initially surprised me. He had issues and I didn't think it was a great match. They still have to deal with some of these issues but they are very happy.
You seem to be trying very hard which suggests you may have big expectations. If someone is thoughtful and makes you laugh, this is a good start.
The other thing I would say to you is go to a local church. They are often at the heart of local communities. It can be a good way to get to know people in a more meaningful way.
You seem to be trying very hard which suggests you may have big expectations. If someone is thoughtful and makes you laugh, this is a good start.
The other thing I would say to you is go to a local church. They are often at the heart of local communities. It can be a good way to get to know people in a more meaningful way.
You have some incongruency in what you write: you wrote that you are beautiful, but men ghost you after 1 night.
As a man I can tell you that all my friends want to be intimate with a beautiful woman at least multiple times even if she has an unbearable personality.
I'm 40 and most of my successful friends who want kids date women under or around 30, because that's what our urges say when we want more than just sex / relationship.
The reality is that at this age if you really want a partner with a baby you probably have to marry a guy you are not attracted to (my suggestion for a 25 year old woman who wants to marry would be very different).
As a man I can tell you that all my friends want to be intimate with a beautiful woman at least multiple times even if she has an unbearable personality.
I'm 40 and most of my successful friends who want kids date women under or around 30, because that's what our urges say when we want more than just sex / relationship.
The reality is that at this age if you really want a partner with a baby you probably have to marry a guy you are not attracted to (my suggestion for a 25 year old woman who wants to marry would be very different).
What is the point of saying this? My interpretation is this accuses OP of being delusional about their attractiveness or lying to us.
How is your "observation" supposed to help?
Regardless, I posit that marrying someone you're not attracted to is not a good idea if you want a happy and fulfilling life. You're going to be spending a lot, lot, lot of time with them. It's a recipe for resentment, which is fatal to relationships.
How is your "observation" supposed to help?
Regardless, I posit that marrying someone you're not attracted to is not a good idea if you want a happy and fulfilling life. You're going to be spending a lot, lot, lot of time with them. It's a recipe for resentment, which is fatal to relationships.
OP being delusional is not an accusation, but a feedback.
She can use photofeeler as well to get a rating (as a 40 year old successful, average looking guy I usually get about 7 even though I'm trying to take care of myself, and I definitely wouldn't describe myself as handsome when I ask for dating advice).
I'm starting to accept that I can't find a person to marry at this point in my life, I should have done it at 30 when I had the perfect partner for it, but I was immature.
She can use photofeeler as well to get a rating (as a 40 year old successful, average looking guy I usually get about 7 even though I'm trying to take care of myself, and I definitely wouldn't describe myself as handsome when I ask for dating advice).
I'm starting to accept that I can't find a person to marry at this point in my life, I should have done it at 30 when I had the perfect partner for it, but I was immature.
Thanks for trying to explain or clarify your position.
For you my friend, please read this:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31963218
As a guy, your clock hasn't run out yet! If you're a 7, and a genuinely nice / generous / loving / honest / emotionally mature person, don't give up! There are fewer "good" men out there than you may realize, you're actually a hot commodity.
For you my friend, please read this:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31963218
As a guy, your clock hasn't run out yet! If you're a 7, and a genuinely nice / generous / loving / honest / emotionally mature person, don't give up! There are fewer "good" men out there than you may realize, you're actually a hot commodity.
The difference is that once men get past 30 and testosterone starts tapering off the desire to enter relationships drops off a cliff too.
Looking back at what I put up with in my teens and 20s I'd rather be celibate. Short of testosterone injections to get me back to how horny I was then I don't see that changing.
Looking back at what I put up with in my teens and 20s I'd rather be celibate. Short of testosterone injections to get me back to how horny I was then I don't see that changing.
Given the little time you have left, i'd recommend going with that friend that's been secretely in love with you, but you've only ever considered a friend.
My guess is that you've built yourself a modern romantic image of what a couple should be (aka : two maddly in love young beautiful people having crazy passionate sex every night) instead of the traditional one (two grown ups trying to build a family against the constant shitstorm that life is).
I'm not judgemental, as i'm almost in the same situation as you, except as a guy i feel i still have a bit more time (but not that much).
My guess is that you've built yourself a modern romantic image of what a couple should be (aka : two maddly in love young beautiful people having crazy passionate sex every night) instead of the traditional one (two grown ups trying to build a family against the constant shitstorm that life is).
I'm not judgemental, as i'm almost in the same situation as you, except as a guy i feel i still have a bit more time (but not that much).
As a guy, on average you're actually getting more attractive as you age. For women, it works the opposite, which can understandably be very difficult for former hotties.
The tables flip around 35-40 years old.
Regardless, I wish you all the best and hope you find someone as awesome as I'm certain you are!
The tables flip around 35-40 years old.
Regardless, I wish you all the best and hope you find someone as awesome as I'm certain you are!
Funny. I feel I’m much more attractive now then when I was 30 and have heard the same from many women my age. Most people I meet think I’m 30, not 41. I eat really healthy, rarely drink, exercise more and have just learned better self-care, better fashion, better makeup and hair. Like a lot of nyc women, I’ve been constantly improving myself. A lot of men my age , by contrast seem to be balding and overweight…
That's great you're feeling better as you're older!
Though that last comment at 'balding' men -- do you consider that fair? Balding men didn't choose their genetics, nor did they do anything specific to become bald. And, outside of surgery, they can't stop being bald. Are you maybe saying these men need to shave their heads and commit to their fate, to stop 'balding' and just 'be bald'?
It is fair to call them overweight though, that is obviously 99% in their control.
Though that last comment at 'balding' men -- do you consider that fair? Balding men didn't choose their genetics, nor did they do anything specific to become bald. And, outside of surgery, they can't stop being bald. Are you maybe saying these men need to shave their heads and commit to their fate, to stop 'balding' and just 'be bald'?
It is fair to call them overweight though, that is obviously 99% in their control.
I gained a ton of weight taking a medicine to save my life. Thanks.
I didn't mean to belittle your situation (I too have experienced medical weight gain, it's such a hopeless feeling!).
> On average !
Btw I'm shaved head bald and people generally seem to dig it. Not everyone's cup of tea, but dudes really have not much control over the genetics involved. In my admittedly extremely biased opinion it's harsh to hold against someone.
Btw I'm shaved head bald and people generally seem to dig it. Not everyone's cup of tea, but dudes really have not much control over the genetics involved. In my admittedly extremely biased opinion it's harsh to hold against someone.
i've heard nyc had the worst female to male ratio for some reason (worst for female).
I've heard that , and i can tell you it's not necessarily true. I had a lot more success ten years ago for sure.
Thanks for the kind words, though.
Thanks for the kind words, though.
You're correct that this won't apply across the board, but at the end of the day, dating is totally a numbers + filtering game.
Don't sell yourself short, patience and perseverance are virtues in this arena :)
Don't sell yourself short, patience and perseverance are virtues in this arena :)
It sounds like you’ve been trying the typical “random” dating approach. Meet some guy, figure out if you like each other, then ??? That approach has a high miss rate and doesn’t work for all people.
If you are indeed ready to find someone I would advise you to get pragmatic and be specific about exactly what you want.
Write down exactly who you are looking for. Try to narrow to age, race, physical characteristics, etc. Literally, every aspect that is important to you. Write it down with a pen on paper. Make it real and get it out of your head.
Then, aggressively start looking and use the criteria you’ve developed.
If you are indeed ready to find someone I would advise you to get pragmatic and be specific about exactly what you want.
Write down exactly who you are looking for. Try to narrow to age, race, physical characteristics, etc. Literally, every aspect that is important to you. Write it down with a pen on paper. Make it real and get it out of your head.
Then, aggressively start looking and use the criteria you’ve developed.
As an alternative I suggest just listing out deal breakers and following up with anyone who doesn't violate them.
Second pass is incongruence. The best advice I every got on hiring was to not hire people whose projected persona wasn't congruent; what that means changes from person to person, but it ends up being critical for close relationships.
Second pass is incongruence. The best advice I every got on hiring was to not hire people whose projected persona wasn't congruent; what that means changes from person to person, but it ends up being critical for close relationships.
A) Austin is not really a great city for somone single in their 40s--especially female. There's just too many young people you're competing against because of both the University and the "Live Music Scene". In addition, becasue you're in Texas, you've got a bunch of religious-affiliated men who will likely screen you out for various reasons (education, mostly). Some place like Pittsburgh would probably be better.
B) One question you need to ask yourself is: Do you really have your list of wants adjusted to a realistic level.
I can't find the video now (we'll see if HN can pull it up :) ), but there was a woman (from University of Pennsylvania? Statistics department?) who decided that she would apply her statistics knowledge to dating.
When she listed her desired characteristics, she calculated that there were a total of 3 men in all of Philadelphia who would match--of which 2 of them were likely married already.
That was pretty eye opening to her. It doesn't take many characteristics before you've screened out practically everyone.
After fixing that, she applied her statistics to adjusting her dating profile to start matching her with the people she wanted and was quite a bit more successful in her endeavors.
Good luck.
B) One question you need to ask yourself is: Do you really have your list of wants adjusted to a realistic level.
I can't find the video now (we'll see if HN can pull it up :) ), but there was a woman (from University of Pennsylvania? Statistics department?) who decided that she would apply her statistics knowledge to dating.
When she listed her desired characteristics, she calculated that there were a total of 3 men in all of Philadelphia who would match--of which 2 of them were likely married already.
That was pretty eye opening to her. It doesn't take many characteristics before you've screened out practically everyone.
After fixing that, she applied her statistics to adjusting her dating profile to start matching her with the people she wanted and was quite a bit more successful in her endeavors.
Good luck.
As a male a decade+ ago, I played a similar game and came to similar conclusions, the perfect fit of a a half dozen or so attributes were maybe 3-4 women in the entire city.
Which basically meant 0 chance for all intents, even if I manged to locate one, the chances I was going to be their dream man was unlikely.
As a married man, I think the key is just finding someone willing, who its possible to make it work with.
Which basically meant 0 chance for all intents, even if I manged to locate one, the chances I was going to be their dream man was unlikely.
As a married man, I think the key is just finding someone willing, who its possible to make it work with.
I understand your frustration. You've tried so many things without finding success.
Chances are we can't tell you anything your therapist(s) and dating coach(es) haven't already - they probably have a lot more information about you, and are specialists in the area of relationships.
You mention you've been on over 120 dates - that's a lot of dates! Were there any second dates? Why or why not?
Chances are we can't tell you anything your therapist(s) and dating coach(es) haven't already - they probably have a lot more information about you, and are specialists in the area of relationships.
You mention you've been on over 120 dates - that's a lot of dates! Were there any second dates? Why or why not?
> By most cultural standards, according to my male friends, I’m smart, beautiful, fit, kind, emotionally mature and doing meaningful work in the world. Not too needy and not a workaholic.
Sometimes it's difficult to get an honest opinion from friends. There might be some turn off. It could be even something positive, there is AFAIK a phenomenon of men being intimidated by successful women.
Sometimes it's difficult to get an honest opinion from friends. There might be some turn off. It could be even something positive, there is AFAIK a phenomenon of men being intimidated by successful women.
Trust me with all the coaches and support groups I’ve been through, plus my willingness to throw myself to the wolves about my dating life on hacker news, I’m open and have heard many honest opinions about myself ! And iterated on that feedback !
That's 60 dates a year. You're talking to the next guys before you ever give anyone a chance.
Good point. >1 date a week, when it takes at least a few weeks to set up a quality date, means that you never establish a credible commitment.
What if you tried limiting yourself to 1 new person a month? You'll evaluate them more favorably, and be more selective, and get less burned out
What if you tried limiting yourself to 1 new person a month? You'll evaluate them more favorably, and be more selective, and get less burned out
The "it's a numbers game" thing is a hack to get people out of the trap of not seeing enough new people. You're on the other end of the chart. Commitment is a learnable skill, not something that goes easily once you find the perfect person.
You need a professional to evaluate your situation. They can give you a better understanding of what your situation is. You can't do it alone. You need someone that's honest and will give you an honest evaluation.
I've never seen you but I am almost certain that physical beauty is not the problem. It might be your behavior; maybe you're too shy. Or the type of people you are dating; maybe you have different goals. You can't see it so it's better to let someone else tell you. Someone that's not your friend.
Also, be careful of getting too wrapped-up on the idea of finding the perfect mate. There is no such person. Popular fiction has deceived many women and men into thinking that if you wait long enough your perfect mate will come. That's unlikely. We are all imperfect so don't think you are "settling" for someone when in reality that's how life is. Just know that you can share a very good and happy life with someone even if they are not perfect.
I wish you success.
I've never seen you but I am almost certain that physical beauty is not the problem. It might be your behavior; maybe you're too shy. Or the type of people you are dating; maybe you have different goals. You can't see it so it's better to let someone else tell you. Someone that's not your friend.
Also, be careful of getting too wrapped-up on the idea of finding the perfect mate. There is no such person. Popular fiction has deceived many women and men into thinking that if you wait long enough your perfect mate will come. That's unlikely. We are all imperfect so don't think you are "settling" for someone when in reality that's how life is. Just know that you can share a very good and happy life with someone even if they are not perfect.
I wish you success.
I appreciate you feedback but I think you missed the part of my post where I mentioned that I’ve done intensive therapy with two wonderful therapists for several years , been part of support groups, worked with a hypnotist and also met consistently with spiritual teachers (forgot to mention that)
I actually very frequently get asked out in second and third dates, but the men haven’t seemed to be good fits 90% of the time. It’s not because they’re not perfect. It’s mostly because they were extremely rude to a server, pressured me to be sexual before I was ready or , yes, not always , but in certain cases were extremely unappealing to me physically and looked nothing like their profile picture.
I love imperfection just as much as the next guy, in fact prefer it. We connect where we are vulnerable.
I think the problem is bigger than my personal hangups which I’ve deeply explored.
I actually very frequently get asked out in second and third dates, but the men haven’t seemed to be good fits 90% of the time. It’s not because they’re not perfect. It’s mostly because they were extremely rude to a server, pressured me to be sexual before I was ready or , yes, not always , but in certain cases were extremely unappealing to me physically and looked nothing like their profile picture.
I love imperfection just as much as the next guy, in fact prefer it. We connect where we are vulnerable.
I think the problem is bigger than my personal hangups which I’ve deeply explored.
The good news is you've practiced the situation a lot and you can find a date easily. I guess there's no point in asking your friends if you managed that many on your own.
120 seems like a heck of a lot of dates, I would think most people find their life partner in under 20 first dates. That's including random hookups, for most people I've known well enough to tally. It's also enough of a sample that it would drown out any noise, meaning your average dating mistake or unattractive trait would not really matter, someone will bite regardless of whether you pick your nose or confess to a love of pineapple pizza.
My guess is there's something about how you're proceeding with things that is unorthodox. Some kind of wrong vibe thing where either guys hit the panic button, or you hit the panic button. Perhaps you are anxious, that's a common hangup that can be dealt with once identified.
From your 120 dates:
- Did you keep some sort of summary of what happened?
- How did you meet? Why did you want to go on the date?
- Do you have specific requirements that were not met? Did they?
- Did you get any feedback that wasn't a canned response (No chemistry/Not sure I'm ready/It's me not you/etc)? Sometimes you will get someone who gives you a real insight.
Couple of random suggestions:
- Hire a professional matchmaker. I almost did this once, ended up meeting my wife right before paying the guy. Seems like a good enough deal, you basically pay a person to find some candidates and go and date them.
- Move to another country. London, Sydney, maybe somewhere in Europe if you're comfortable with the languages. You may find there's something odd about American dating culture that you won't understand until you leave it.
120 seems like a heck of a lot of dates, I would think most people find their life partner in under 20 first dates. That's including random hookups, for most people I've known well enough to tally. It's also enough of a sample that it would drown out any noise, meaning your average dating mistake or unattractive trait would not really matter, someone will bite regardless of whether you pick your nose or confess to a love of pineapple pizza.
My guess is there's something about how you're proceeding with things that is unorthodox. Some kind of wrong vibe thing where either guys hit the panic button, or you hit the panic button. Perhaps you are anxious, that's a common hangup that can be dealt with once identified.
From your 120 dates:
- Did you keep some sort of summary of what happened?
- How did you meet? Why did you want to go on the date?
- Do you have specific requirements that were not met? Did they?
- Did you get any feedback that wasn't a canned response (No chemistry/Not sure I'm ready/It's me not you/etc)? Sometimes you will get someone who gives you a real insight.
Couple of random suggestions:
- Hire a professional matchmaker. I almost did this once, ended up meeting my wife right before paying the guy. Seems like a good enough deal, you basically pay a person to find some candidates and go and date them.
- Move to another country. London, Sydney, maybe somewhere in Europe if you're comfortable with the languages. You may find there's something odd about American dating culture that you won't understand until you leave it.
How many interactions were not online-based? I have no idea how much it matters in general or how much it matters to you, but I have had various friends have trouble meeting in one space but then have a lot more success in the other.
Another thing might be what 'sources' for interaction you consider, dates/hookups/meetings vs. people you already know. Lots of people meet each other by proximity, like at work, special interest groups (like sports clubs), volunteer work, conferences etc. If you consider what friends you might have and how you got to meet and know them, the same source might be a place to find someone to become more than friends with.
Lastly, is there a risk of forcing the issue, "looking" for someone to play a specific role instead of having a single interaction grow into more interactions, and then get to friendship/intimacy after that etc. Most of the long standing relationships around me (and my own) are based on organic growth.
Another thing might be what 'sources' for interaction you consider, dates/hookups/meetings vs. people you already know. Lots of people meet each other by proximity, like at work, special interest groups (like sports clubs), volunteer work, conferences etc. If you consider what friends you might have and how you got to meet and know them, the same source might be a place to find someone to become more than friends with.
Lastly, is there a risk of forcing the issue, "looking" for someone to play a specific role instead of having a single interaction grow into more interactions, and then get to friendship/intimacy after that etc. Most of the long standing relationships around me (and my own) are based on organic growth.
I am a man (married now) but when i was dating women like you scare me
I vouched for this to bring it back from the dead. This is rather a harsh comment, especially from a new user. I can see why it was flagged, but you probably have some useful information to offer her. Could you try make it into a better comment by explaining what about her scares you, and what she might do to counter this?
She does not need a man or partner, her life is so busy, in my life women who are doing so many things never have time for a relationship, I was not being rude just giving my point of view.
It's tricky - the more you force it, the more likely that you end up with the wrong person, especially when you feel like there's a ticking clock due to wanting to have kids.
Sounds corny, but it'll hit you when you're not looking for it/when you least expect it. It's been the case for me (not married... yet?) and others I know who are in great relationships.
Personally, I wanted to be a bachelor/single a bit longer, having left a long relationship not even a year prior. Ended up meeting the most amazing, beautiful, intelligent, wonderful, loving, compatible person I could ever wish to be with, all by chance/when I wasnt looking. It's been 5 and a half years and meeting her is a top highlight in my life.
Relationships I've had that resulted from actively trying to find someone more times than not left me miserable.
Never chase and don't set expectations. Again, it's corny, but who you need will hit you at the right time when you're not wanting. In the meantime, do you, let go of controlling the situation, and just let things just happen.
Personally, I wanted to be a bachelor/single a bit longer, having left a long relationship not even a year prior. Ended up meeting the most amazing, beautiful, intelligent, wonderful, loving, compatible person I could ever wish to be with, all by chance/when I wasnt looking. It's been 5 and a half years and meeting her is a top highlight in my life.
Relationships I've had that resulted from actively trying to find someone more times than not left me miserable.
Never chase and don't set expectations. Again, it's corny, but who you need will hit you at the right time when you're not wanting. In the meantime, do you, let go of controlling the situation, and just let things just happen.
What has led those 120 potential partners to not work out?
From what you’ve described here, you’re quite the catch. Is it that belief that is leading you to have too high of standards for your mate?
From what you’ve described here, you’re quite the catch. Is it that belief that is leading you to have too high of standards for your mate?
I think it’s quite possible or I don’t know what to look for. I didn’t have a dad so it’s hard for me to know what I like and don’t like. That said, there are many men I’ve found attractive when the timing wasn’t right so I don’t know that I’m too picky either. Hard to say. I wish I was more discerning in seeing who is a good man who could be a good partner for me
I see in your other posts you’re saying 1 in 10 men you find attractive. Also that you’ve dated unemployed men.
So maybe it isn’t standards in terms of income, occupation, etc. that’s holding you back. It seems like you’re using attractiveness as the first filter. Which most people do when finding a mate. But given your age and your goals, maybe you should give a chance to more of those that you don’t find meeting your attractiveness bar. Treat it like a arranged marriage perhaps, arranged marriages often result in fulfilling lasting marriages (with kids!) that I’m sure didn’t start with outright attraction.
So maybe it isn’t standards in terms of income, occupation, etc. that’s holding you back. It seems like you’re using attractiveness as the first filter. Which most people do when finding a mate. But given your age and your goals, maybe you should give a chance to more of those that you don’t find meeting your attractiveness bar. Treat it like a arranged marriage perhaps, arranged marriages often result in fulfilling lasting marriages (with kids!) that I’m sure didn’t start with outright attraction.
That's worth emphasizing: I'm pretty sure successful marriages are based on people being committed to figuring things out, not to the initial chemistry.
It's trajectory, not starting point.
It's trajectory, not starting point.
Frankly it sounds like you are saying you left men in the past for "amorphous career-related" reasons but find yourself working at a risk-laden startup moving cities out of alleged insecurity with your social and romantic circumstance at the age of 41 with no kids, raising the woe-is-me flag on an internet forum. Just calling a spade a spade here.
Don't underestimate the commitment of kids. Prospective partners know they are a forever commitment that will stress and strain even a well established relationship. They will eat time, motivation, career, and sanity for breakfast, then demand entertainment, transport a packed lunch. To be good parents you have to give up a lot and you never get it back. Splitting up and spitting the dummy isn't going to change that like it could solve arguments the past. In the event of success in your search, given you will thus be emotionally, practically and socially completely redefined as a person by having kids anyway, why not kiss your current self goodbye and release your expectations before beginning the search?
Here it is: Back-burner your career up front.
Ask yourself what more are you looking for in your career? Are you willing to 100% ditch it for a few years starting tomorrow for Mr. Squintrite™ to have kids or are you expecting him to take up the slack for you while you go on a hormonal journey of aggressive self-redefinition with disrupted sleep and emotional conflict guaranteed, cynically to avoid timeout on a me-too life check box now that it suits you? If it's a mix, consider how it may adjust perception in a mate. Any other expectations to unpack? Houses, cars, rings, income? Any pet baggage or toxic girlfriends in there? Debt, expensive spending or bad habits? Don't beat yourself up about it, just understand what might be a red flag for others. Having parents or family around helps with the strain of kids. You mentioned moving about. Is your mum around to help? Are you willing to move to be close to a partner's extended family?
After putting work on the backburner, try something abnormal (eg. take up a new interest, preferably including week+ periods away in places with great climates), and then see who you meet. They might be more compatible than the set you're meeting otherwise. If in 2-3 years it still doesn't happen, go back to work and embrace being kidless.
Don't underestimate the commitment of kids. Prospective partners know they are a forever commitment that will stress and strain even a well established relationship. They will eat time, motivation, career, and sanity for breakfast, then demand entertainment, transport a packed lunch. To be good parents you have to give up a lot and you never get it back. Splitting up and spitting the dummy isn't going to change that like it could solve arguments the past. In the event of success in your search, given you will thus be emotionally, practically and socially completely redefined as a person by having kids anyway, why not kiss your current self goodbye and release your expectations before beginning the search?
Here it is: Back-burner your career up front.
Ask yourself what more are you looking for in your career? Are you willing to 100% ditch it for a few years starting tomorrow for Mr. Squintrite™ to have kids or are you expecting him to take up the slack for you while you go on a hormonal journey of aggressive self-redefinition with disrupted sleep and emotional conflict guaranteed, cynically to avoid timeout on a me-too life check box now that it suits you? If it's a mix, consider how it may adjust perception in a mate. Any other expectations to unpack? Houses, cars, rings, income? Any pet baggage or toxic girlfriends in there? Debt, expensive spending or bad habits? Don't beat yourself up about it, just understand what might be a red flag for others. Having parents or family around helps with the strain of kids. You mentioned moving about. Is your mum around to help? Are you willing to move to be close to a partner's extended family?
After putting work on the backburner, try something abnormal (eg. take up a new interest, preferably including week+ periods away in places with great climates), and then see who you meet. They might be more compatible than the set you're meeting otherwise. If in 2-3 years it still doesn't happen, go back to work and embrace being kidless.
This was uncomfortable but there was a lot of truth in there. I'd end with an adoption plug.
I always felt like dating was just a job interview, and it completely put me off. It feels as exhausting as grinding for technical interviews. Your comment about choosing a partner being like choosing a CTO makes me wonder whether you're coming at it with a similar frame.
I met someone on Reddit last year and we got to know each other very intimately, because of the safety of the anonymity. We eventually met in person, and it's really great.
I later read "Click", which I highly recommend, and it completely explained why we connected so deeply.
I wish I had learned a long time ago to "go first" and take the risk of sharing my feelings with strangers, because that's how you build a deep connection with someone, quickly. After that, if you communicate well, you find them physically attractive enough, and you trust them to have hard conversations, that's it.
I met someone on Reddit last year and we got to know each other very intimately, because of the safety of the anonymity. We eventually met in person, and it's really great.
I later read "Click", which I highly recommend, and it completely explained why we connected so deeply.
I wish I had learned a long time ago to "go first" and take the risk of sharing my feelings with strangers, because that's how you build a deep connection with someone, quickly. After that, if you communicate well, you find them physically attractive enough, and you trust them to have hard conversations, that's it.
Don’t be discouraged. You appear to be a very goal-oriented systematic person, maybe lacking some reflective skills but what do I know. But life is not systemic and goal-oriented. You kinda can’t force it. The differential equations underlying the complex tangle of feedback that we call society care little about what you want or need. So maybe just let things happen and try to enjoy whatever is happening? I’m not saying letting yourself go or giving up but rather accepting the world does not follow a checklist and neither does it do what you want. Besides, seeing someone, by your description, perfect, with a laser-like focus on something would be quite terrifying. I’m not perfect, I don’t have that sort of focus and I would not even know how to start with trying to keep up with you.
I suggest 'giving up' and just have fun, travel, sports, get fitter to play better.
Be the mysterious woman having fun.
A man's imagination is far more powerful than any reality you might conjure up, you can reveal too much.
Remember, men will consider 90% of women, but women only consider 10% of men.
There's a lot of competition for that 10%.
Be the mysterious woman having fun.
A man's imagination is far more powerful than any reality you might conjure up, you can reveal too much.
Remember, men will consider 90% of women, but women only consider 10% of men.
There's a lot of competition for that 10%.
Your numbers are way off. The majority of men end up in long-term relationships with women. So women are obviously considering more than 10% of men.
There are good biological reasons why women are more choosy than men (size of investment in child rearing), but as you say, most people do end up in relationships, so it typically means men have to do the most work persuading women of their desirability, and many women end up partnering with men they wouldn't have considered based on initial impressions.
I think that you're not looking for love but for perfection.
That might be the problem, you can't find perfection.
That might be the problem, you can't find perfection.
If it's discouragement you want to avoid, it's likely that it's discouragement you need. You may need to accept that whatever ideal you're seeking doesn't exist. This discouragement may hurt at first, but it will open you up to a new world of possibility.
I don't think I need discouragement.
Might I ask what happened over these 120 dates. Is there none of them you find attractive or see a path to a meaningful connection with in time?
I found about 1 in ten attractive and then they ghosted me after a few dates
Were these blind dates or did you do some pre-screening? Because "1 in 10 dates" being attractive after pre-screen would seem a bit too picky.
Sounds like a filtering issue. Don't waste your time if you don't find them highly attractive.
What do you find attractive?
Are you religious?
Are you religious?
The real hack is to pretend to be very interested in something men are interested in and keep up that pretense for the rest of your life. Like the female equivalent of salsa. Sure it sucks, it's a big investment of effort and time in something you have absolutely no innate interest in, but it serves as a costly signal on your willingness to compromise. I'd probably wife up the first woman who shared any of my hobbies. The other hack is niche marketing. You don't try to be all things to all people, nor go for the same men most other women go for, you look for an underserved market. You can combine the two by picking up an esoteric hobby that typically only men do.
she doesn't have to share the hobbies, but at least be supportive and encouraging. similar about work. but it goes both ways in my eyes. i should be able to be supportive of my wifes interests, and she should be supportive of mine. the interests don't need to be the same, but they should not conflict either.
The signal must be costly otherwise it is not a signal.
if you truly love someone then you care about their happiness, and that includes caring about their interests. you should naturally want to support their interests because you want to make them happy.
That’s why it’s a hack. It’s unreasonably effective. Waiting for true love is how people end up alone.
true love is the goal that you want to develop with your current partner. you do it by caring about them and their interests, and getting them to care about yours.
the point is: don't just pretend to be interested. but try to honestly care. if you honestly love this person, you should be able to. pretending may help to get you started, but if you have to keep pretending, you may end up unhappy. better find something else to love about your partner.
the point is: don't just pretend to be interested. but try to honestly care. if you honestly love this person, you should be able to. pretending may help to get you started, but if you have to keep pretending, you may end up unhappy. better find something else to love about your partner.
If you don’t want to use a hack to get something you want then don’t.
if i love my partner, i don't need to hack it, i just need to extend that love to everything about them.
I am responding from bottom to top.
1. Hacks won't do it. You don't hack through life, and if that's your attitude, changing it might help you achieve what you are trying to achieve.
2. If you are willing to do almost everything, I suggest Church-hunting—try to find a suitable religious man. No, I am not joking. If you want my reasoning , you may contact me.
3. I suggest you have a kid either way—it is difficult, but worth it. If you “run out of time”, adopt.
4. Do not make rush decisions based on obscure possibilities.
5. You are probably looking in the wrong crowd. Or are being picky.
6. Take a moment back, and decide how you want to move forward. If you take advice from anyone, take it from a married couple.
My contacts for "internet people": [email protected]
1. Hacks won't do it. You don't hack through life, and if that's your attitude, changing it might help you achieve what you are trying to achieve.
2. If you are willing to do almost everything, I suggest Church-hunting—try to find a suitable religious man. No, I am not joking. If you want my reasoning , you may contact me.
3. I suggest you have a kid either way—it is difficult, but worth it. If you “run out of time”, adopt.
4. Do not make rush decisions based on obscure possibilities.
5. You are probably looking in the wrong crowd. Or are being picky.
6. Take a moment back, and decide how you want to move forward. If you take advice from anyone, take it from a married couple.
My contacts for "internet people": [email protected]
May I ask if you had relationships in the 20 to 25 years before? It reads very much like you noticed your fertile time is running out and want to find someone for the very first time.
Suggestion of another strategy: Get pregnant artificially and enjoy your time with your baby. This let’s you live half your dream and relax. Being relaxed may in turn lead to getting to know a man that wants you to be present in his life.
You are also entering an age range where men have children from previous relationships, are divorced and want a simple and happy life without many obligations. The arrangement I see is “You and I have our flaws but I like you and want to spend time with you.”
Suggestion of another strategy: Get pregnant artificially and enjoy your time with your baby. This let’s you live half your dream and relax. Being relaxed may in turn lead to getting to know a man that wants you to be present in his life.
You are also entering an age range where men have children from previous relationships, are divorced and want a simple and happy life without many obligations. The arrangement I see is “You and I have our flaws but I like you and want to spend time with you.”
Sure, it's a valid point and good to put out there, but it doesn't really match her goals:
> Since I was a little girl, I’ve dreamed of falling in love and having a family of my own.
I think she is aiming for a more traditional family and has more romantic ideas about her relationship. But I could be wrong...
Let's wish her the best in any case :)
> Since I was a little girl, I’ve dreamed of falling in love and having a family of my own.
I think she is aiming for a more traditional family and has more romantic ideas about her relationship. But I could be wrong...
Let's wish her the best in any case :)
Match makers might be worth looking into if you have disposable income. Match makers doesn’t mean mail order brides. Apparently they are worth the investment from the few friends I’ve known that have utilized their services.
Reminds me of my ex, who had a commitment phobia. While we gelled well and had no major conflicts of interest, she decided to hitch her luck to something else while waiting for "Mr. Perfect".
Last time I met her, she's still unmarried, and now with eating disorder and her self-esteem driven to new lows. She's single, almost bitter, and while in a stable boring job with good remuneration, is still unhappy about the pace of events. It might be just because of the commitment issues. You need to leap into the unknown and drive out the fear of failure.
> Since I was a little girl, I’ve dreamed of falling in love and having a family of my own.
&
> I was raised by a single mom and I really want to have kids with a man I love, not do it on my own.
My sincere suggestion is to drop the "falling in love" requirement. Almost ~60 years on this rock and I've to the conclusion that "I really like him/her" is by far the sounder foundation for lasting love than "I am in love with him/her".
Love is a flower that grows from the ground of intimate friendship.
(Also, don't look for Dad.)
p.s. Your post inspired the idea of "Date HN: Who wants to date?"
&
> I was raised by a single mom and I really want to have kids with a man I love, not do it on my own.
My sincere suggestion is to drop the "falling in love" requirement. Almost ~60 years on this rock and I've to the conclusion that "I really like him/her" is by far the sounder foundation for lasting love than "I am in love with him/her".
Love is a flower that grows from the ground of intimate friendship.
(Also, don't look for Dad.)
p.s. Your post inspired the idea of "Date HN: Who wants to date?"
> p.s. Your post inspired the idea of "Date HN: Who wants to date?"
Uhh. That would be an amazing idea.
Uhh. That would be an amazing idea.
> Over the last two years I’ve been on over 120 dates
That is... quite a lot. I've probably been on 10-20 over my whole life.
That is... quite a lot. I've probably been on 10-20 over my whole life.
Have you ever been in a relationship before this past 2y? I'm just curious.
(My username is confusing but I'm a woman)
(My username is confusing but I'm a woman)
I was in one LTR. We were so in love and he already had a kid from a previous marriage who I adored. But he decided he didn’t want another one with me. So I ended it. I feared I would end up resenting him if I gave up my dream of kids
You shouldn't be looking for `love hack`.
Your viewing dating as a bug worth solving through teaching, activities and numbers. I view love kind as a very special kind of friendship. And friendship is not really planned. Your best friend might be very different from what a planned best friend would look like. But, life brought you this best friend and it stuck for the best. I would encourage you to just accept whatever comes your way as you would with any beginning of friendship, and accept to let it grow. :)
Dear Manisha,
> By most cultural standards, according to my male friends, I’m smart, beautiful, fit, kind, emotionally mature and doing meaningful work in the world. Not too needy and not a workaholic.
If you're smart, beautiful, fit, kind, emotionally mature, and purposeful yet your male friends would rather stay friends with you instead of taking that extra mile of dating you and building a future with you, your problems don't end there.
True love does not exist. It is just invented by the government and the illuminati.
Sincerely, Josh
> By most cultural standards, according to my male friends, I’m smart, beautiful, fit, kind, emotionally mature and doing meaningful work in the world. Not too needy and not a workaholic.
If you're smart, beautiful, fit, kind, emotionally mature, and purposeful yet your male friends would rather stay friends with you instead of taking that extra mile of dating you and building a future with you, your problems don't end there.
True love does not exist. It is just invented by the government and the illuminati.
Sincerely, Josh
Stop being so picky and realize no one (and by extension, everyone) is perfect. No one person is going to fulfill all of your romantic and relationship needs, and that's ok.
I’m actually really open to giving people a second chance and getting to know them. When I have a reason that someone is not a fit I sanity check it with my friend. Im not the kind of person who dismisses agit for superficial reasons like lack of a college degree, socially awkward, height or slightly overweight. I try to be compassionate and see the good in people. I’ve endured a lot of negative treatment from men and I have to hope that connecting with someone im attracted to who is kind and honest and there for me is not too picky.
You turn down 90% of the men who ask, with a relatively large sample of 120 men....so are you saying 90% of men are dishonest and unkind? No offences, but you and your friends may be misjudging people.
Based on who you have said you dated, I agree with you that the issue isn't the height of your standard, but it may be with the measuring tools your using to guage them.
Based on who you have said you dated, I agree with you that the issue isn't the height of your standard, but it may be with the measuring tools your using to guage them.
I don't even know where to start with that reply.
"...second chance..." You're keeping a tally?
".. I sanity check it with my friend." You have the capability of discernment on your own, and you should engage with owning your own power and capabilities. Going to a friend is you trying to export the potential guilt/shame/pain/whatever-negative-feeling-you're-avoiding out to a 3rd party as a safety valve so you don't have to deal with it when the (surprise!) inevitable happens because there are now no consequences for your actions.
"I'm not the kind of person..." Whatever was in the rest of that sentence, you should try to be that kind of person for a while. To get some perspective.
"I try to be compassionate and see the good in people." Oh this is a giant red flag. If you feel compelled to wave this banner around (especially in public), as though other people 'are not' this, it is because you likely have a crushing amount of guilt from being judgmental about others.
"I've endured a lot of negative treatment from men" You mean like they beat and rape you, or they call you names and yell at you? There is a chasm of difference between these two things. If you're summoning assholes from the first group, god help you. I hope you can find a mentor that can restore your confidence and you can come to know that you intrinsically have worth that is outside of whatever horribleness you are encountering in the world. If you attract men who are verbally/psychologically abusive, then I would suppose there is a reason you are attracting those kind of men. Maybe you are a negative, spoiled, titty baby who constantly plays the victim card and incessantly puts the blame for your situation on others because you're afraid of responsibility. Maybe you've lost (or were never taught) the value of having gratitude, even (and especially) during trouble.
Your expectations of people are worthless, no, worse, they are actively destructive to your relationships. Any expectations of people are that. Assume all responsibility, even for others, yourself, or continue driving in circles.
"...second chance..." You're keeping a tally?
".. I sanity check it with my friend." You have the capability of discernment on your own, and you should engage with owning your own power and capabilities. Going to a friend is you trying to export the potential guilt/shame/pain/whatever-negative-feeling-you're-avoiding out to a 3rd party as a safety valve so you don't have to deal with it when the (surprise!) inevitable happens because there are now no consequences for your actions.
"I'm not the kind of person..." Whatever was in the rest of that sentence, you should try to be that kind of person for a while. To get some perspective.
"I try to be compassionate and see the good in people." Oh this is a giant red flag. If you feel compelled to wave this banner around (especially in public), as though other people 'are not' this, it is because you likely have a crushing amount of guilt from being judgmental about others.
"I've endured a lot of negative treatment from men" You mean like they beat and rape you, or they call you names and yell at you? There is a chasm of difference between these two things. If you're summoning assholes from the first group, god help you. I hope you can find a mentor that can restore your confidence and you can come to know that you intrinsically have worth that is outside of whatever horribleness you are encountering in the world. If you attract men who are verbally/psychologically abusive, then I would suppose there is a reason you are attracting those kind of men. Maybe you are a negative, spoiled, titty baby who constantly plays the victim card and incessantly puts the blame for your situation on others because you're afraid of responsibility. Maybe you've lost (or were never taught) the value of having gratitude, even (and especially) during trouble.
Your expectations of people are worthless, no, worse, they are actively destructive to your relationships. Any expectations of people are that. Assume all responsibility, even for others, yourself, or continue driving in circles.
I'm late to this, but this comment crossed well into personal attack and is the kind of thing we ban accounts for.
Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules in the future. You broke quite a few of them here.
Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules in the future. You broke quite a few of them here.
In case you come back to this, I apologize for the attack.
I was raised with a lot of this kind of language (sans any encouragement and hope), and was taught to become emotional at the slightest sign of discomfort. It's not an excuse, but it is where I am. I'm still learning to avoid expressing negativity.
I was raised with a lot of this kind of language (sans any encouragement and hope), and was taught to become emotional at the slightest sign of discomfort. It's not an excuse, but it is where I am. I'm still learning to avoid expressing negativity.
> Over the last two years I’ve been on over 120 dates with men I’ve met online - a few I met in person - in 3 different cities .
What was wrong with them? What common patterns (if any stand out)? If this were a StackOverflow question about reading a file from Node.js, it would be customary to at least enumerate the output you saw after the failed attempts.
But that's not here, which (a) is interesting and possibly important; and (b) makes it hard to say much constructive.
Is it possible that you want the family more than you want the husband? Or that you like the idea of a husband but not any specific husband you could marry?
> ... I was raised by a single mom and I really want to have kids with a man I love, not do it on my own.
Stay true to that and don't let your despair drive you to something you (and a future child) might regret. You have a perspective on this that only the child of a single parent can understand.
Kids raised by single parents have various ways to cope, and one of them is to become unusually independent. Maybe that has something to do with why there was no mention about what specifically was wrong with the men you dated unsuccessfully. Maybe you're, in fact, fine on your own. It's just that you want a child but being a single parent is a no-go.
So here's a hack. Write yourself a letter about all the dates you've been on and what's stopped you from moving forward with each man you've dated. Be extremely specific. Anything from excessive nose hair to anger issues would be fair game.
Then, categorize your dates. Group them according to biggest flaws. Maybe come up with some kind of classification system like "Selfish" or "Doesn't Want Kids."
After collecting the data and categorizing it, what stands out?
Edit: later on in the thread you note:
> I found about 1 in ten attractive and then they ghosted me after a few dates
Here are some ideas to follow up on that:
1. What was unattractive about them? If it was physical, for example, then an online approach is bound to lead to slim pickings and frustration. Be honest with yourself and if physical attraction is crucial, ask for a picture or stop meeting guys online. Whatever the case, 1/10 sounds kind of low.
2. Are you saying that the 1/10 you found attractive then proceeded to ghost you after a few dates? In other words, there has not been a single case in which you called things off after a man makes it past the first cut?
What was wrong with them? What common patterns (if any stand out)? If this were a StackOverflow question about reading a file from Node.js, it would be customary to at least enumerate the output you saw after the failed attempts.
But that's not here, which (a) is interesting and possibly important; and (b) makes it hard to say much constructive.
Is it possible that you want the family more than you want the husband? Or that you like the idea of a husband but not any specific husband you could marry?
> ... I was raised by a single mom and I really want to have kids with a man I love, not do it on my own.
Stay true to that and don't let your despair drive you to something you (and a future child) might regret. You have a perspective on this that only the child of a single parent can understand.
Kids raised by single parents have various ways to cope, and one of them is to become unusually independent. Maybe that has something to do with why there was no mention about what specifically was wrong with the men you dated unsuccessfully. Maybe you're, in fact, fine on your own. It's just that you want a child but being a single parent is a no-go.
So here's a hack. Write yourself a letter about all the dates you've been on and what's stopped you from moving forward with each man you've dated. Be extremely specific. Anything from excessive nose hair to anger issues would be fair game.
Then, categorize your dates. Group them according to biggest flaws. Maybe come up with some kind of classification system like "Selfish" or "Doesn't Want Kids."
After collecting the data and categorizing it, what stands out?
Edit: later on in the thread you note:
> I found about 1 in ten attractive and then they ghosted me after a few dates
Here are some ideas to follow up on that:
1. What was unattractive about them? If it was physical, for example, then an online approach is bound to lead to slim pickings and frustration. Be honest with yourself and if physical attraction is crucial, ask for a picture or stop meeting guys online. Whatever the case, 1/10 sounds kind of low.
2. Are you saying that the 1/10 you found attractive then proceeded to ghost you after a few dates? In other words, there has not been a single case in which you called things off after a man makes it past the first cut?
> But that's not here, which (a) is interesting and possibly important; and (b) makes it hard to say much constructive.
Many questions like this all over the submission, but none of them are answered despite her continued comment activity.
Many questions like this all over the submission, but none of them are answered despite her continued comment activity.
For me, my grandma was an inspiration. She and my grandpa met just before he was to be sent off to war (WW2). They had known each other two weeks.
After many years and cultural changes to relationships, young me came along, totally confused about how that kind of setup was the strongest example of love and marriage I had witnessed. My grandma told me there was no mystery at all. Two people can make it happen if they both have the desire and commitment to do it. Like anything else worth doing, marriage is hard work, but also very rewarding.
I think in the world of online dating we all secretly feel deep down that it’s a cheap substitute for the real thing. Fairy tales may exist for some, but rewarding marriage still begins with commitment.
I don’t necessarily have any solutions for you, because meeting people is still hard. Maybe take some time to analyze yourself and make sure you’re not burned out. Recognize that the people you are meeting might also be.
I think the best way to have a successful meeting is to get to a place of empathy — one where you can look beyond your own needs to those of the person you’re meeting. If they can let down their guard and do the same for you, then there’s hope it can work.
After all, that’s the essence of the “hard work” that goes into a rewarding marriage relationship — at least that’s what worked for my grandparents.
If only I had fully appreciated her advice when I was younger, then maybe I could have avoided years of frustrated online dating. But I feel fortunate to have met my wife at a time when I was mature enough to reflect on it.
After many years and cultural changes to relationships, young me came along, totally confused about how that kind of setup was the strongest example of love and marriage I had witnessed. My grandma told me there was no mystery at all. Two people can make it happen if they both have the desire and commitment to do it. Like anything else worth doing, marriage is hard work, but also very rewarding.
I think in the world of online dating we all secretly feel deep down that it’s a cheap substitute for the real thing. Fairy tales may exist for some, but rewarding marriage still begins with commitment.
I don’t necessarily have any solutions for you, because meeting people is still hard. Maybe take some time to analyze yourself and make sure you’re not burned out. Recognize that the people you are meeting might also be.
I think the best way to have a successful meeting is to get to a place of empathy — one where you can look beyond your own needs to those of the person you’re meeting. If they can let down their guard and do the same for you, then there’s hope it can work.
After all, that’s the essence of the “hard work” that goes into a rewarding marriage relationship — at least that’s what worked for my grandparents.
If only I had fully appreciated her advice when I was younger, then maybe I could have avoided years of frustrated online dating. But I feel fortunate to have met my wife at a time when I was mature enough to reflect on it.
Hi, I am Kind of old school and never used a dating app. I believe most couples Met when they were in a new situation, eg. first week in university, new job etc. Maybe throw yourself into a period of adventure in your life. Like travel the world for a year or try out different, simpler but fun and social jobs - basically enjoy your life with an open heart, mind and arms. This is probably better than a more facts and numbers driven dating app approach.
Single, male, mid 30s, looking for the same.
I've met many women like you who seem great on paper, but ultimately pass. Because qualifications don't matter as much as how someone makes me feel. If I could crack my own code I would optimize my search. But I seriously cannot..
Surely in the past decade of your life a man has been super interested but you felt 6/10 about them. Maybe commit and work on turning 6/10 feelings into an 8/10 and call yourself lucky.
I've met many women like you who seem great on paper, but ultimately pass. Because qualifications don't matter as much as how someone makes me feel. If I could crack my own code I would optimize my search. But I seriously cannot..
Surely in the past decade of your life a man has been super interested but you felt 6/10 about them. Maybe commit and work on turning 6/10 feelings into an 8/10 and call yourself lucky.
Not a popular opinion for HN but you know.. just do it. Even with someone you can barely tolerate. Don't let the timeline stress you though, we have enough humans it is not the end if the world if you don't have kids unless biological continuation of your gene is important to you (can always adopt).
I have met people like you many times but with finishing school getting a job,etc... sorry for my seemingly naive advice but go ahead and screw up. Get married and get a divorce if it doesn't work out, or maybe it will? You seem to have a certain standard and an idea of how things should be. What I am saying is if you as you say are so lucky that people would want to spend their time with you then go ahead and give the next guy who tries a shot. It's 2022, you will not be forced to stay with someone and there is no shame in abandoning a sunken ship if it comes down to it. Or give up on the whole idea, my concern for you is you are not enjoying life and living it to your satisfaction because of "the chase". I hope you are not chasing disney, hollywood or some culturally specific idea of a romantic relationship. It is what you need it to be (or rather who), and it is also a two way street.
I have met people like you many times but with finishing school getting a job,etc... sorry for my seemingly naive advice but go ahead and screw up. Get married and get a divorce if it doesn't work out, or maybe it will? You seem to have a certain standard and an idea of how things should be. What I am saying is if you as you say are so lucky that people would want to spend their time with you then go ahead and give the next guy who tries a shot. It's 2022, you will not be forced to stay with someone and there is no shame in abandoning a sunken ship if it comes down to it. Or give up on the whole idea, my concern for you is you are not enjoying life and living it to your satisfaction because of "the chase". I hope you are not chasing disney, hollywood or some culturally specific idea of a romantic relationship. It is what you need it to be (or rather who), and it is also a two way street.
My wife and me found each other somewhat later then usual, at least over here in the Netherlands. We both suck at the dating game, we went on a vacation to Namibia, it was a group thing and we bonded by the camp fire. No pressure, not intended to date afterwards, no love at first sight. Yet here we are, 15 years later and two children.
The situations you describe are pressure situations, relaxing having a good time worked better for me.
It does sound like standards or the dating process may be an issue. 120 dates in two years seems like a huge number to me. But I’ve been out of the dating scene for many years.
I think the main things you need to look for are:
1. Someone you enjoy being around, most of the time, and who enjoys being around you.
2. Someone who shares your general life goals or is motivated to move towards them.
3. Someone who is honest with you and with whom you share a mutual respect.
4. Someone you are physically attracted to.
It seems tough to filter for these things other than #1 and #4 on a single date.
And #2 is malleable. I always said the world has too many people and I never wanted kids. Then I met a girl I liked and overheard a conversation where she told someone that she absolutely wanted kids. So I said “I guess I’m changing that plan” and decided to have kids. We wound up married with 4 kids, and it’s awesome.
I think most other things that people focus on (shared interests, liking the same music, similar background, whatever) are a bit overrated. I would describe them as nice-to-have but not deal breakers. If you can find the four things above early in the relationship and avoid red flags (any sign of abusiveness, mental issues, etc.) you are in pretty decent shape IMO.
I think the main things you need to look for are:
1. Someone you enjoy being around, most of the time, and who enjoys being around you.
2. Someone who shares your general life goals or is motivated to move towards them.
3. Someone who is honest with you and with whom you share a mutual respect.
4. Someone you are physically attracted to.
It seems tough to filter for these things other than #1 and #4 on a single date.
And #2 is malleable. I always said the world has too many people and I never wanted kids. Then I met a girl I liked and overheard a conversation where she told someone that she absolutely wanted kids. So I said “I guess I’m changing that plan” and decided to have kids. We wound up married with 4 kids, and it’s awesome.
I think most other things that people focus on (shared interests, liking the same music, similar background, whatever) are a bit overrated. I would describe them as nice-to-have but not deal breakers. If you can find the four things above early in the relationship and avoid red flags (any sign of abusiveness, mental issues, etc.) you are in pretty decent shape IMO.
Age has a interesting effect on the reproductive marketplace. A young woman (18 - early 20s) is at her peak "valuation" as it were. Typically you will see the most prized women in that age bracket dating older men (mid 20s and up). Men are valued differently, how established they are in life plays a big role in how women value them so having some more time to get their lives together is a positive, up until a point.
There is also a survivorship bias at play. The men who are available in your age range are probably the least interested in settling down and having children. Due to the ticking of the biological clock, a strange thing happens around 25 - 30 for men where they suddenly are pursued rather than pursuer. Most remotely desirable men will find themselves attached at this point even if they didn't intend to be (I sure didn't).
In your shoes, I'd wager your best bet would be divorced men who have children. They have been thrust back into the reproductive marketplace often against their will (women initiate most divorces) but probably enjoy children and are used to being in a marriage.
Happy hunting!
There is also a survivorship bias at play. The men who are available in your age range are probably the least interested in settling down and having children. Due to the ticking of the biological clock, a strange thing happens around 25 - 30 for men where they suddenly are pursued rather than pursuer. Most remotely desirable men will find themselves attached at this point even if they didn't intend to be (I sure didn't).
In your shoes, I'd wager your best bet would be divorced men who have children. They have been thrust back into the reproductive marketplace often against their will (women initiate most divorces) but probably enjoy children and are used to being in a marriage.
Happy hunting!
How many men have you rejected and how many men rejected you?
If I had to guess the first number is higher than the last.
Maybe lower your standards?
I always check with a trusted friend to make sure I have a good reason for not going on a second date.
It is NEVER because I didn’t feel a “spark”
Reasons would include rudeness, meanness, treating service workers with disrespect, speaking for an hour without asking me a question, and occasionally completely not physically attractive to me for a very specific reason. Women tend to get criticized a lot for the last one, but oddly, no one tells men to try again with women they find physically unattractive…and even here I push myself past my limits.
Given that - it’s 90% I turn down, 10% don’t ask me out again - I usually assume if a guy doesn’t it means hes not interested. But perhaps I’m too attached to traditional gender roles
It is NEVER because I didn’t feel a “spark”
Reasons would include rudeness, meanness, treating service workers with disrespect, speaking for an hour without asking me a question, and occasionally completely not physically attractive to me for a very specific reason. Women tend to get criticized a lot for the last one, but oddly, no one tells men to try again with women they find physically unattractive…and even here I push myself past my limits.
Given that - it’s 90% I turn down, 10% don’t ask me out again - I usually assume if a guy doesn’t it means hes not interested. But perhaps I’m too attached to traditional gender roles
Wait a minute, are those 90% and 10% separate groups? Ask the 10% out again yourself!! They might be thinking you're the one who's not interested!
A little positive story. My parents met when my mother was about 40 and father 60. Stayed together the rest of his life. But they both had their psychological problems and I think my father was a little abusive - certainly arrogant toward her.
A little positive story. My parents met when my mother was about 40 and father 60. Stayed together the rest of his life. But they both had their psychological problems and I think my father was a little abusive - certainly arrogant toward her.
Shot down 90% of 120 men! These aren’t random men; you filtered their profiles. My advice: read about the secretary problem. Marry the next guy that seems better than all previous guys. It’s mathematically the right strategy here.
Has your trusted friend ever said "no, that's not a good reason"?
Because, if not at least few times by the 100+ people, they are probably not providing the service you think they, but instead just agreeing with what they think you want to hear.
Because, if not at least few times by the 100+ people, they are probably not providing the service you think they, but instead just agreeing with what they think you want to hear.
Compromise - there is really no perfect match out there - settle for < 100%.
Was not scared to marry a girl from a totally different cultural and racial background - as wise Yoda said once - "Try not, do. Or do not. there is no try"
A good prenup obviously but 22 years and 2 kids later we still together - it doesd help that I am far easier going than her and don't sweat the small stuff like she does.
Was not scared to marry a girl from a totally different cultural and racial background - as wise Yoda said once - "Try not, do. Or do not. there is no try"
A good prenup obviously but 22 years and 2 kids later we still together - it doesd help that I am far easier going than her and don't sweat the small stuff like she does.
Hi love,
I want to honor your for never giving up on one of your heart's deepest desires. I can only imagine the discouragement you're feeling but you're still here asking for support/guidance. From what I'm gathering from your post, the BEST love hack I could possibly offer is going to be something that might seem counterproductive, but hear me out.
I know you're 41 and I know your biological clock is ticking and I'm sure that adds additional pressure to find a good man that you love to marry ASAP.
Buuuuuuuut there's a way to collapse time on the things you want to call into your life, there's a way to manifest at hyper speed and it's the last thing you'd ever think to do. Here it is... Surrender the timeline completely, surrender the hyper focus on needing to find a man AT ALL. This is an Abraham Hicks teaching. Sometimes when we focus too much on the thing we desperately want we are actually repelling it because we're SO aware of it's absence. The universe always gives us what we are energetic match for and the best way I know to become an energetic match to True Love is: "Stop looking, stop searching, BREATHE, relax, live FULLY, open your heart deeper. Serve this world with your gifts and let it come to you." That was the best advice I got from Lorin Krenn when I was calling in The One, my Sacred Union. I got crystal clear on what I wanted in a man (did a powerful journaling on the 08/08 portal - which is coming up!) and then I surrendered it all to the universe and focused on living my most aligned, soul fulfilling life... and I met the man BEYOND my wildest dreams a month later at a music festival called Blended, which blended culinary, wellness and music (3 of our FAV things in the world!). There's obviously more inner work that I did that I'm happy to share more about but that was the gist of it.
In my world, if you desire a Sacred Union, it's INEVITABLE! And in order to speed up the manifestation we have to sloooooooow down. Just know that ALLLL that you've invested in yourself is adding up, it's compounding and you're on the BRINK of the greatest love story... but in the meantime see if you can surrender ALL of it over to the Universe.
There's so many powerful resources but the most important one is to decide he's already yours and now you simply get to love yourself and your life SOOO fully that it actually is irrelevant if he shows up in this lifetime or not (love hack - get to a state of neutrality (surrender)).
I really hope that was helpful <3
Thanks so much Amanda.
I was starting to feel really discouraged especially after reading most of the comments on this post.
But yours gave me hope.
And it's nice to hear from someone who seems to understand my POV a little better than most.
It was helpful and insightful.
Thank you.
My pleasure :) and it’s interesting to notice your mention of discouragement in your original post and now again from reading the other comments. How often is discouragement present in your day to day? And what feeling/vibe do you desire to live in and how can you cultivate that more? Our state of being is our point of attraction and it’s ok to feel discouraged but we want to get back into alignment with our vision as soon as possible which is full of love, gratitude and joy :)
I love to take women through a fun process called the Wheel of Union to get clarity, clear out what’s no longer serving and celebrate all that’s already amazing. I’d be happy to take you through it and if after you want deeper support I’m available as well. And if not, I pray your most aligned partner manifests in the most delightful way for you!! Take care <3
That is an excellent checklist, of your actions. That should amount to meeting thousands of people? I am sure there is a list of why you dropped all of them, or why they dropped you. Considering that above 50% of people you meat are mature enough for a relationship (actual research) readapt your criteria.
If the reasons are emotional on your part e.g. Dismissive or Disorganized(fearful) Attachment it will take you a couple of years. Look into Attachment styles on Personal Development School on youtube. It's like a cheatsheet/rabbithole for figuring how to make things work for you and others emotionally.
If you like people at the begining and then not so much, you might look into scaling up from therapist to psychiatrist for quicker results.
Choose someone you would like, be cautious of choosing someone who you think everybody else would like. Could you choose someone e.g. fat? Why not? What other social disproval criteria might have crept into your checklists?
It is streightforward but not always easy. Good Luck!
If the reasons are emotional on your part e.g. Dismissive or Disorganized(fearful) Attachment it will take you a couple of years. Look into Attachment styles on Personal Development School on youtube. It's like a cheatsheet/rabbithole for figuring how to make things work for you and others emotionally.
If you like people at the begining and then not so much, you might look into scaling up from therapist to psychiatrist for quicker results.
Choose someone you would like, be cautious of choosing someone who you think everybody else would like. Could you choose someone e.g. fat? Why not? What other social disproval criteria might have crept into your checklists?
It is streightforward but not always easy. Good Luck!
What’s more important, your job or your family?
Family? Quit/Pause your job. At least for half a year. You’re trying to rush a relationship, that’s just not possible. Go traveling, stay at least two weeks in one place. If you like it stay longer. Meet people in parks, bars, at the beach.
This was how I met my wife. We would have almost nothing in common if we wrote a dating profile but when we talk to each other and are close to each other none of this matters. And it’s difficult because we’re from different countries, speaking different languages, have a vastly different culture. We fought A LOT about language, it’s still difficult to have a more in depth conversation but none of that matters.
Kids: any. If we cannot get our own, we’ll adopt. Who cares if the kid is your own?
Apparently you’ve been in a LTR and let it slip because you need your kids to be based on your DNA. That’s your decision, for us this fact is basically irrelevant.
Family? Quit/Pause your job. At least for half a year. You’re trying to rush a relationship, that’s just not possible. Go traveling, stay at least two weeks in one place. If you like it stay longer. Meet people in parks, bars, at the beach.
This was how I met my wife. We would have almost nothing in common if we wrote a dating profile but when we talk to each other and are close to each other none of this matters. And it’s difficult because we’re from different countries, speaking different languages, have a vastly different culture. We fought A LOT about language, it’s still difficult to have a more in depth conversation but none of that matters.
Kids: any. If we cannot get our own, we’ll adopt. Who cares if the kid is your own?
Apparently you’ve been in a LTR and let it slip because you need your kids to be based on your DNA. That’s your decision, for us this fact is basically irrelevant.
I don't have answers, seems to me you're doing everything that should be done.
I do have questions that you need to consider
1. Are you having trouble getting dates? (Is the problem that you're not meeting enough people?) 2. If you're meeting enough people, why are the dates going sour? Are you leaving the men or are the men not interested? 3. If the men are leaving, it's probably a good idea to ask for an honest feedback from some of them. 4. If you're leaving them, it's a good idea to understand what exactly is it that you don't find great about them?
In my opinion. If you have a long checklist, it'll be very difficult to find someone. There are only a few things that you should look for.
1. Is He Kind to me? 2. Do I find him attractive? 3. Does he have any visible mental health issue (Anger, Depression, or Crippling Anxiety)
If these things are Ok, rest everything falls in place.
1. Are you having trouble getting dates? (Is the problem that you're not meeting enough people?) 2. If you're meeting enough people, why are the dates going sour? Are you leaving the men or are the men not interested? 3. If the men are leaving, it's probably a good idea to ask for an honest feedback from some of them. 4. If you're leaving them, it's a good idea to understand what exactly is it that you don't find great about them?
In my opinion. If you have a long checklist, it'll be very difficult to find someone. There are only a few things that you should look for.
1. Is He Kind to me? 2. Do I find him attractive? 3. Does he have any visible mental health issue (Anger, Depression, or Crippling Anxiety)
If these things are Ok, rest everything falls in place.
I was lucky enough to start dating my wife when I was 16 and she was 15. Obviously I can't tell much about dating, my love life was set up before online dating, however, my impression from talking to friends and family is that:
1) people expect their possible partners to be completely aligned on lots of things which don't really matter like tastes or opinions in this or that or background and education level. Having similar character, spine and the same outlook to life matters whey more.
2) sometimes they expect their partner to be a life coach, a career mentor, a doctor or lawyer or whatever - someone with answers to difficult things in life.
3) "oh if he's saying X then he definitely is like my ex": people with many past relationships may be biased and dump a good candidate just because said candidate signaled something.
Men are not picky. It’s weird to lump people into categories like ‘marriageable’ and choose someone because they’re educated. People have much more important properties in a relationship. Someone with a trusting and caring nature will be a million times better partner than one who only has some cool PhD.
Not sure about the "men are hypo-selective" aspect you claim, but the rest of what you wrote really resonates with me- I learned profession really doesn't matter, in fact people in highly competitive fields tend to be the worst in relationships. They already made their choice when they made the crazy high commitment.
Doctors and VPs at Tesla or other major companies were almost universally less fun dates and overall emotionally unavailable, with only one exception out of dozens for me. I was a little disappointed to reality this but once I accepted and incorporated it into my selections, things improved vastly.
Doctors and VPs at Tesla or other major companies were almost universally less fun dates and overall emotionally unavailable, with only one exception out of dozens for me. I was a little disappointed to reality this but once I accepted and incorporated it into my selections, things improved vastly.
Hey I wish you the best of luck in your quest.
Can you tell us a bit more about why the dates you have been on didn't progress further? This video might be worth a watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xaQP_8ydBc
Can you tell us a bit more about why the dates you have been on didn't progress further? This video might be worth a watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xaQP_8ydBc
My first impression is that it sounds like you have a strategy problem. Give some thought to those 120 dates, years of self-improvement and searching, and where your successes and failures have been. The men, the apps, other factors? Identifying the pain points can help you find ways to overcome them.
I don't want to hurt you but reading your story it strikes me that you haven't give coincidence a chance, not everything in life can be reached by hard working towards your goals. A lot of things in life are random shit. sometimes you need to give life a chance by doing nothing.
Success with your quest.
Success with your quest.
For the data-driven.
Austin is not a good place for women to find a man. It favors educated, successful older men, pairing with younger women.
Go west. Silicon Valley. Less men, more women.
Dating apps tend to have two attachment styles - anxious attached, avoidant (majority for the men on these apps).
And, you may have an avoidant attachment style yourself.
Austin is not a good place for women to find a man. It favors educated, successful older men, pairing with younger women.
Go west. Silicon Valley. Less men, more women.
Dating apps tend to have two attachment styles - anxious attached, avoidant (majority for the men on these apps).
And, you may have an avoidant attachment style yourself.
Interesting ! You know, I actually did meet my last boyfriend after 20 dates in SF so there might be something to this!
By the way. Attached, which I forgot to mention is one of my favorite books on dating. I think I’m more of an anxious type but the book gave me space to accept and forgive myself for that, and I met my boyfriend after that !
It didn’t work out because he didn’t want to have kids with me but we shared a lot of love and I have no regrets.
Thanks very much for weighing in.
By the way. Attached, which I forgot to mention is one of my favorite books on dating. I think I’m more of an anxious type but the book gave me space to accept and forgive myself for that, and I met my boyfriend after that !
It didn’t work out because he didn’t want to have kids with me but we shared a lot of love and I have no regrets.
Thanks very much for weighing in.
>Dating apps tend to have two attachment styles - anxious attached, avoidant (majority for the men on these apps).
Can you expand on and provide a source for this?
Can you expand on and provide a source for this?
Look into Arranged Marriage ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arranged_marriage_in_the_India... ). Instead of dating sites, explore "matrimonial" sites like https://www.jeevansathi.com/ , https://shaadi.com , https://www.simplymarry.com etc. as only people intent on serious relationship / marriage post on such sites.
Find and join a church, they're great places to meet people. If you're an atheist or agnostic, you can still join a Unitarian church. Although at this point, picking and engaging fully in a religion (whichever) might not be such a bad thing to try.
(Warning, possibly discouraging? ... If the original post is true, then you really must already have a clue about what's up. It seems impossible to me that you could be all that, and do all that, and still really have no idea why it's not working. If none of your friends can possibly fathom what's up, then maybe you need more honest friends. There's something they're not telling you, or that you aren't letting yourself recognize.)
(Warning, possibly discouraging? ... If the original post is true, then you really must already have a clue about what's up. It seems impossible to me that you could be all that, and do all that, and still really have no idea why it's not working. If none of your friends can possibly fathom what's up, then maybe you need more honest friends. There's something they're not telling you, or that you aren't letting yourself recognize.)
2 suggestions.
1- Have kids on your own via a sperm donor. Lori Gottlieb details her journey doing just so in the excellent book, “¿Maybe you should talk to someone?”
2- Just have fun. With kids off the table, you can find someone you can talk to—a lot lower stakes. Someone you like depending on.
Good luck!!
1- Have kids on your own via a sperm donor. Lori Gottlieb details her journey doing just so in the excellent book, “¿Maybe you should talk to someone?”
2- Just have fun. With kids off the table, you can find someone you can talk to—a lot lower stakes. Someone you like depending on.
Good luck!!
Have you considered freezing your eggs? It’s quite common for career women to do so nowadays.
There are plenty of people giving advice here on general life stuff and a lot of it seems pretty good, but I don't know how actionable all of it is for you right away.
I met my wife on OkCupid. I think that OkCupid is probably the best online dating site of the major ones (or at least it was when I used it), but it requires some effort. Assuming they haven't changed too much, I think this would help anyone using it:
1. Write a meaningful profile (you can ask r/okcupid for feedback if you think you need it, but I doubt that you do) and include photos showing different scenarios/poses/activities
2. Answer questions and honestly include their importance to you ( https://theblog.okcupid.com/the-most-important-questions-on-... )
3. "Hide" profiles that do not appeal to you. This removes them from your results and also removes you from their results
4. Be honest with yourself about dealbreakers and use them to "Hide" results regardless of any other traits a profile may have. If you know that you want children, don't even respond to (or look at) a profile that says they don't. If you know that you only want to raise kids with a nonsmoker, filter out smokers, etc. In my experience, political affiliation is one metric that can be ignore here. People who are compatible with you will be obvious from other questions that are more important. -ists and -isms are found in all political parties.
5. Prioritize profiles/people (they aren't "people" until you meet them) who have physical traits that you find subjectively attractive. If you prefer redheads, prioritize those profiles. If you prefer short men, prioritize those. If you've been on 120 dates, you should be able to come up with something here.
6. Meet quickly, don't spend days/weeks messaging someone before meeting. First date should only ever be beverages. Second date can be a simple activity, but it needs to still be focused on talking.
Good luck
I met my wife on OkCupid. I think that OkCupid is probably the best online dating site of the major ones (or at least it was when I used it), but it requires some effort. Assuming they haven't changed too much, I think this would help anyone using it:
1. Write a meaningful profile (you can ask r/okcupid for feedback if you think you need it, but I doubt that you do) and include photos showing different scenarios/poses/activities
2. Answer questions and honestly include their importance to you ( https://theblog.okcupid.com/the-most-important-questions-on-... )
3. "Hide" profiles that do not appeal to you. This removes them from your results and also removes you from their results
4. Be honest with yourself about dealbreakers and use them to "Hide" results regardless of any other traits a profile may have. If you know that you want children, don't even respond to (or look at) a profile that says they don't. If you know that you only want to raise kids with a nonsmoker, filter out smokers, etc. In my experience, political affiliation is one metric that can be ignore here. People who are compatible with you will be obvious from other questions that are more important. -ists and -isms are found in all political parties.
5. Prioritize profiles/people (they aren't "people" until you meet them) who have physical traits that you find subjectively attractive. If you prefer redheads, prioritize those profiles. If you prefer short men, prioritize those. If you've been on 120 dates, you should be able to come up with something here.
6. Meet quickly, don't spend days/weeks messaging someone before meeting. First date should only ever be beverages. Second date can be a simple activity, but it needs to still be focused on talking.
Good luck
Okcupid turned into a Tinder clone. A really inferior one.
As someone who met my wife on OKC, this is sad. They valued user engagement over user engagement.
That is very sad if so. Hopefully some of my experience is still helpful for her regardless
You might want to read this
https://medium.com/@hunterfoxx/why-sod-swipe-online-dating-d...
https://medium.com/@hunterfoxx/why-sod-swipe-online-dating-d...
Best thing I can say is be assertive in making things happen. Make the first move, first contact. Opportunities pass by if you sit around waiting for it to happen.
For guys this is natural as we are expected to take the initiative since teenage years.
For guys this is natural as we are expected to take the initiative since teenage years.
Yeah . I think I’m going to start asking more men out on the wild. I’m afraid of rejection, but literally I have nothing to lose at this stage.
Ask a few of the men you've dated for honest feedback.
Stress to them that you are sorry things didn't work out between you, you don't have an interest in trying again, but you really want to know what they found appealing and not appealing.
Good luck!
Stress to them that you are sorry things didn't work out between you, you don't have an interest in trying again, but you really want to know what they found appealing and not appealing.
Good luck!
The problem is almost assuredly not with these men, but with your perfectionism. Or trauma. Or distorted beliefs about relationships. You need to dig into your beliefs about relationships and uncover where your distortions lie.
It's pretty apparent to me what the problem is here and it's already been voiced in countless posts here by other men.
So, since you asked for encouragement only, I highly encourage you to get some cats to keep you company as you age.
So, since you asked for encouragement only, I highly encourage you to get some cats to keep you company as you age.
Thanks for the feedback.
I’m allergic to cats, but I know they can make good companions to women and men.
The main alternative I’m considering is an intentional community, which I’ve found can be really fulfilling and more sustainable ecologically than living alone.
But I do appreciate you taking the time to offer your heartfelt advice.
I’m allergic to cats, but I know they can make good companions to women and men.
The main alternative I’m considering is an intentional community, which I’ve found can be really fulfilling and more sustainable ecologically than living alone.
But I do appreciate you taking the time to offer your heartfelt advice.
Are checklists common in the western/modern dating scene?
I came up with the concept of checklist from my female friends in the USA. I found the concept bizarre.
FWIW, male 35 yo here, background 3rd world asian country. I never had any checklist.
I came up with the concept of checklist from my female friends in the USA. I found the concept bizarre.
FWIW, male 35 yo here, background 3rd world asian country. I never had any checklist.
Obviously I don’t know you and my advice might be off, but maybe it will help. I am also male - but I know several women who were at your situation, and opted to go at it alone (through a sperm donation) or with a non married partner (like being divorced from day zero), and are very happy about this decision.
You really want children, and I think that you will regret it very much if you don’t have them. You also want love - but that’s not something that is so easy to find with so much pressure involved.
Of course it’s not ideal - but life never is. So go make these children. You have all of life to find love.
You really want children, and I think that you will regret it very much if you don’t have them. You also want love - but that’s not something that is so easy to find with so much pressure involved.
Of course it’s not ideal - but life never is. So go make these children. You have all of life to find love.
My friend and his wife just had twins (she’s 56). Sure IVF is a pain, expensive, and can take time… but worrying less about your clock may make remove a stressor that’s getting in the way of successful dating. Freeze your eggs if you haven’t done so, keep dating, try and get honest feedback from friend by double dating, and keep your expectations in check.
My wife is the most amazing woman in the world and there’s no one else I’d rather be with… but I did consider breaking up with her early on over dumb things, just like I had done with other women before.
My wife is the most amazing woman in the world and there’s no one else I’d rather be with… but I did consider breaking up with her early on over dumb things, just like I had done with other women before.
I don’t have any suggestions about dating in your 40s. But, I will say that finding men that want to become a father in their 40s is going to be hard. We usually already have kids are don’t want them.
Yea that's not my experience at all. Most of my guy friends had their first babies during late 30s and early 40s. Sample applies to me.
What are your weaknesses? Finding someone who has the skills that compliment you are more important than finding someone with identical interests. In my opinion you would want someone to be independent and have their own interest and be willing to blend their lifestyle with yours. I'm married to an accountant and her technical skills and background are substantially different from my own. We don't have the same opinion on everything and don't need to be perfectly aligned to feel like we both have the perfect family.
Another country? I.e. in your 40s, taking a company relocation may be the best bet?
Marrying between cultures is kind of a different thing since you aren't seeing each other in the same sets of social layers and translation difficulties ultimately simplify unnecessary rituals that might trip up two native speakers.
There are also more blunt approaches like finding an immigration orientated spouse and that can work if they are really on the same page on the lifestyle with children, etc.
Marrying between cultures is kind of a different thing since you aren't seeing each other in the same sets of social layers and translation difficulties ultimately simplify unnecessary rituals that might trip up two native speakers.
There are also more blunt approaches like finding an immigration orientated spouse and that can work if they are really on the same page on the lifestyle with children, etc.
As someone who stumbled into a long term relationship with an immigrant of a very different race and culture this is probably the last thing I would recommend to an middle-aged person, especially one wanting to have kids. I know that might be hard to believe if you've looked at my profile/post history but I used to be very liberal and believed in the whole "race doesn't matter" thing. The enormous amount of propaganda and taboo around this means you're left figuring out what it means more or less on your own, this took me years. If there's any place where race (and culture) matters it's when you're deciding who to have a kid with.
Also USCIS is an absolute fucking nightmare. Imagine the worst caricature you've seen of a bureaucracy, this will top it. It's a bureaucracy with an effectively impossible mission and almost no accountability (at least on the end you'll be caring about.) Every time you interact with them there's a decent chance something goes wrong (maybe it's their fault, they're extremely incompetent, maybe it's your fault, the rules are very complex, maybe you just get unlucky) and you're left with the choice of staying illegaly or leaving the country quickly.
Also USCIS is an absolute fucking nightmare. Imagine the worst caricature you've seen of a bureaucracy, this will top it. It's a bureaucracy with an effectively impossible mission and almost no accountability (at least on the end you'll be caring about.) Every time you interact with them there's a decent chance something goes wrong (maybe it's their fault, they're extremely incompetent, maybe it's your fault, the rules are very complex, maybe you just get unlucky) and you're left with the choice of staying illegaly or leaving the country quickly.
Domestic matters are inherently too complex to predict. Through my life I've known many long term happy couples with substantial cultural differences and seen a lot of divorced in ~5 years couples from similar backgrounds.
The US is definitely a more difficult place for the couple to be settling, though I know some there. I find European countries are simpler logistically in an absolute sense (not necessarily familiar to an American) and the average European who marries someone from a different continent is starting from more knowledge of intercultural complexity than someone in the US who doesn't really need much more than shallow awareness of other cultures.
The US is definitely a more difficult place for the couple to be settling, though I know some there. I find European countries are simpler logistically in an absolute sense (not necessarily familiar to an American) and the average European who marries someone from a different continent is starting from more knowledge of intercultural complexity than someone in the US who doesn't really need much more than shallow awareness of other cultures.
race doesn't matter. culture does. they are often aligned, but not always. different cultures can work if both partners are open and willing to compromise.
older people can be more mature about it but also less easy to adapt.
Here’s what you need to do: marry the first hugg-integrity reasonably functional adult who is willing to marry you. Boom, solved like they did in the old days.
> improving my odds of meeting a marriageable man
So, am I understand correctly that your odds still didn't play out and all 120 men you dated came out unmarriageable?
So, am I understand correctly that your odds still didn't play out and all 120 men you dated came out unmarriageable?
Have you considered dating somebody for more than 2-3 dates. Sometimes you don't really get to experience the true person since they're nervous, scared, etc. The more you know and experience somebody, the more they grow on you. Also, have you considered dating people who you wouldn't normally date. You might end up realizing some of the things you required in a man isn't what you really want.
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I don’t understand letting the 1/10 men you chose ghost you instead of just putting out. I mean you are wanting to have their baby.
Also being good in bed isn’t rocket science. Just have them rub your clit while they fuck at the same time. coplay is the new foreplay.
finally, see if you are able to actually keep some of the 7,8,9 / 10 guys you are rejecting (for a month or two), for practice if nothing else.
Also being good in bed isn’t rocket science. Just have them rub your clit while they fuck at the same time. coplay is the new foreplay.
finally, see if you are able to actually keep some of the 7,8,9 / 10 guys you are rejecting (for a month or two), for practice if nothing else.
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Your experience suggests you can solve your problem in one of two ways: Figure out how to interest the attractive men in commitment; figure out how to feel attraction to someone who will commit.
It might help to analyze what makes you feel attracted to someone. What were the moments, characteristics, or sensations that inspired you to conclude you were attracted to that 10%?
It might help to analyze what makes you feel attracted to someone. What were the moments, characteristics, or sensations that inspired you to conclude you were attracted to that 10%?
When I first read your comments, I felt almost sure that you were someone I already knew, one of my mentors. But then you mentioned you were younger than me, so that got me curious about who you are:) You're very insightful, much wiser than your years it seems. If you ever feel like revealing yourself, I'd love to speak to you about the product I'm building (not my love life), because it seems like you are acutely intelligent and really know the right questions to ask. You're honest, but in a gentle way. Anyway, you know where to find me:) No pressure.
I can't really tell you this because I fear it will make me look extremely judgmental. I think that there are many men in this thread who have felt a lot of pain being rejected by woman and take my comments personally.
However, I will say that for the 10%, there was nothing that extremely bothered me, that they were fine (nice-looking enough, smart enough, good listener enough, nothing mind-blowing - not looking for super models or master conversationalists). If I felt I could tolerate them for a second date, I'd go on one.
However, I will say that for the 10%, there was nothing that extremely bothered me, that they were fine (nice-looking enough, smart enough, good listener enough, nothing mind-blowing - not looking for super models or master conversationalists). If I felt I could tolerate them for a second date, I'd go on one.
You're absolutely right that much of the energy on a thread like this comes from those who have been rejected. Did you notice how much more pleasant your interactions with partnered men tend to be? That's likely has a multi-layered cause but it's easy to see why it makes your job on the dating market harder.
What's wrong with being judgmental? You've allowed yourself to be at various junctures but often seem to feel guilty about it later. I do sympathize: "Judgmental" doesn't have a great connotation. Yet decisive and discerning do and signify something similar.
As you've noted, it's not essential you discuss this with a universe of strangers. I do hope you're comfortable with your judgmental side with others you're closed to so you can get to the bottom of the misalignment between initial indicia of attraction and the factors that make a relationship with you successful in the long term.
This comment largely confirms my thesis about you: You're someone who has spent your life trying to be good in various senses and through various ways. You put a ton of pressure on yourself. A lot of good can flow from that for the people towards whom you direct your goodness and for yourself as you've developed a reputation as someone who does good things. It can also be costly because despite our conditioning, our striving to be higher purer beings, we're still animals with various needs some of which are more difficult to acknowledge. Sometimes we desperately want conflicting things.
What's wrong with being judgmental? You've allowed yourself to be at various junctures but often seem to feel guilty about it later. I do sympathize: "Judgmental" doesn't have a great connotation. Yet decisive and discerning do and signify something similar.
As you've noted, it's not essential you discuss this with a universe of strangers. I do hope you're comfortable with your judgmental side with others you're closed to so you can get to the bottom of the misalignment between initial indicia of attraction and the factors that make a relationship with you successful in the long term.
This comment largely confirms my thesis about you: You're someone who has spent your life trying to be good in various senses and through various ways. You put a ton of pressure on yourself. A lot of good can flow from that for the people towards whom you direct your goodness and for yourself as you've developed a reputation as someone who does good things. It can also be costly because despite our conditioning, our striving to be higher purer beings, we're still animals with various needs some of which are more difficult to acknowledge. Sometimes we desperately want conflicting things.
Is this real? There are some thirsty dudes around HN (who isn't?), and they tend to be high earners. Are you sure you haven't gotten to the plot twist yet where, actually, you're a Nigerian princess, and if only you could get a Western Union for $50,000, then you'd be able to resume the throne?
If it is real, though, I mean, good luck?
If it is real, though, I mean, good luck?
You are sweet. Sadly it’s all too real. And I’ve gotten just desperate enough at this point to ask hackers for advice. Hopefully someone can tell me how to hack love! Thanks for the good luck. Thanks for bringing a smile to my face and making me laugh.
> Hopefully someone can tell me how to hack love!
Have to say I had to laugh at this. I went on a bicycle ride with my wife this evening, just the two of us, we left all three kids at home ... alone :eek: House still standing when we returned :)
Be aware that having kids is like starting an avalanche. You have no idea where it's going or what's going to happen. I really mean it.
Good luck!
Have to say I had to laugh at this. I went on a bicycle ride with my wife this evening, just the two of us, we left all three kids at home ... alone :eek: House still standing when we returned :)
Be aware that having kids is like starting an avalanche. You have no idea where it's going or what's going to happen. I really mean it.
Good luck!
If you've gone on 120 dates and found not one of them workable, you need to look at yourself, not "hacks"
Not related to dating, but gave you consider freezing down your eggs and get it done when you manage to find someone?
1) Join a Catholic Church.
2) Go to church every Sunday (alone).
3) Dress tastefully but attractively/femininely
4) Go to all of the social events.
5) Mean it.
(And I do mean Catholic specifically)
2) Go to church every Sunday (alone).
3) Dress tastefully but attractively/femininely
4) Go to all of the social events.
5) Mean it.
(And I do mean Catholic specifically)
I would say try to get into hobbies men are interested in - join up a few (tech) meetup groups and talk to as many people as you can.
Talk to any men who doesn't wear a wedding band and signal very clearly (but not too strongly) that you are interested in them.
Forget dating apps and online.
Your candidate must be a big risk taker: perhaps he's heliskiing now or sailing on a fancy boat? He'd have to make a life changing decision to marry you after just weeks of knowing you: so he's either careless (and thus a poor loser) or is exceptionally good at assessing risk.
Find someone exotic/foreign who likes you? Maybe you're someone from abroad's ideal wife....
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Do you have an idea why the dates you've been on haven't led to a long term relationship?
Most of the time with the online dates, I felt one out of ten was somewhat attractive, so I’d give them a chance and get interested then the guys immediately lost interest and ghosted me after things got physically intimate. I think they just wanted sex and I wanted to wait to get to know them better.
To me it sounds like you're going through the moves to find the right guy, but you don't actually take the ideas and self-reflection parts to heart.
Some questions: Why do you want kids? (There are basically two answers, either it is because you have something to give or because you want something. I guess you can figure out which mindset is healthier.)
Are you actually interested in the people around you? Not only men, but people in general? Do you make an effort to get to know them? And by the same token, are you ready to experience intimacy? I am not (only) talking about sex, but about the effort it takes to open up to someone and to trust them.
Something that can (!) happen when you grow up with a single parent is that the parent confides in you just as if you were their partner, which leads to an unhealthy dynamic (parentification). Since children learn relationship dynamics from their parents, the learning experience in this case is "my needs and boundaries do not matter". As the child grows up, this can (!) lead to a pattern where they avoid intimacy in order to keep their needs and boundaries.
You may want to google "fear of intimacy", "attachment styles", "scared of commitment" and if this resonates with you have a look at books like "He's scared, She's scared" by Steven Carter and Julia Sokol and David Schnarch's books on intimacy (his book "Passionate Marriage" does not only deal with marriage but mostly with the connection between sex and intimacy in general).
Some questions: Why do you want kids? (There are basically two answers, either it is because you have something to give or because you want something. I guess you can figure out which mindset is healthier.)
Are you actually interested in the people around you? Not only men, but people in general? Do you make an effort to get to know them? And by the same token, are you ready to experience intimacy? I am not (only) talking about sex, but about the effort it takes to open up to someone and to trust them.
Something that can (!) happen when you grow up with a single parent is that the parent confides in you just as if you were their partner, which leads to an unhealthy dynamic (parentification). Since children learn relationship dynamics from their parents, the learning experience in this case is "my needs and boundaries do not matter". As the child grows up, this can (!) lead to a pattern where they avoid intimacy in order to keep their needs and boundaries.
You may want to google "fear of intimacy", "attachment styles", "scared of commitment" and if this resonates with you have a look at books like "He's scared, She's scared" by Steven Carter and Julia Sokol and David Schnarch's books on intimacy (his book "Passionate Marriage" does not only deal with marriage but mostly with the connection between sex and intimacy in general).
Actually, I've done an extensive amount of intensive self-reflection, I would definitely wager more than most people.... Did you see where I mentioned therapy, dating coaches, support groups, meditation and hypnosis ?
Yes, that's what I meant with "going through the moves".
Or let me phrase it another way: Did you notice any remarkable changes when you did these things? Examples could be: Revelations about your relationship with your parents, how you perceive certain situations, understanding your feelings better, gaining a better sense of your body etc. If you know someone who has what you wants, what is that person like? Are you like them or do you behave differently? How has your behavior changed during self-reflection? (No need to answer in public, just to give you an idea of what I mean and what I think are important points during self-reflection.)
My impression is that most self-help approaches teach the same things, but not everyone is equally receptive to each approach. Same with therapists, coaching and groups, sometimes it takes another try to find the one that is right for you. Most stuff seems to focus on the intellectual level, but I think that it is equally important to experience the feelings that come with it (for example with techniques like Focusing).
Or let me phrase it another way: Did you notice any remarkable changes when you did these things? Examples could be: Revelations about your relationship with your parents, how you perceive certain situations, understanding your feelings better, gaining a better sense of your body etc. If you know someone who has what you wants, what is that person like? Are you like them or do you behave differently? How has your behavior changed during self-reflection? (No need to answer in public, just to give you an idea of what I mean and what I think are important points during self-reflection.)
My impression is that most self-help approaches teach the same things, but not everyone is equally receptive to each approach. Same with therapists, coaching and groups, sometimes it takes another try to find the one that is right for you. Most stuff seems to focus on the intellectual level, but I think that it is equally important to experience the feelings that come with it (for example with techniques like Focusing).
Yes, lots of insight and personal growth - improved self-confidence, greater happiness, overcoming clinical depression and being happy, clarity about what I wanted, overcoming fear of intimacy, my first big relationship, finding more ability to be myself, making more friends. I'd share them but I'm a little burnt out by sharing so many highly personal details of my life publicly here. All my therapists and coaches seem to like me a lot because I dive into the work and am willing to take feedback.
It sounds like maybe you’re being too picky.
A guy who is both physically attractive and “marriageable”, which I assume means charismatic and well-established financially, will have tons of options. Even if you are quite attractive yourself, your age will tend to rank you lower on his list of options—it’s not fair but that’s how human reproductive biology works.
Just like a startup who can’t compete with google to hire the very best engineers and so needs to “think outside the box” in considering less traditionally qualified candidates who nonetheless have potential, you’ll probably have more success if you’re honest with yourself about your “mating market value”, even if it hurts the ego a bit, and look for men that might be lacking somehow in some areas but make up for it in others.
It’s also important to understand that most guys will sleep with literally any woman given the opportunity. Don’t confuse getting a high status guy interested in sex with getting one interested in a relationship. The first has little bearing on the second. Having a high value in the casual sex market can cause someone to overrate their value in the monogamous relationship market.
Sorry if some of that sounded harsh, but I think we’d all be better off with more honesty and realism on these topics. I hope you find the right person!
A guy who is both physically attractive and “marriageable”, which I assume means charismatic and well-established financially, will have tons of options. Even if you are quite attractive yourself, your age will tend to rank you lower on his list of options—it’s not fair but that’s how human reproductive biology works.
Just like a startup who can’t compete with google to hire the very best engineers and so needs to “think outside the box” in considering less traditionally qualified candidates who nonetheless have potential, you’ll probably have more success if you’re honest with yourself about your “mating market value”, even if it hurts the ego a bit, and look for men that might be lacking somehow in some areas but make up for it in others.
It’s also important to understand that most guys will sleep with literally any woman given the opportunity. Don’t confuse getting a high status guy interested in sex with getting one interested in a relationship. The first has little bearing on the second. Having a high value in the casual sex market can cause someone to overrate their value in the monogamous relationship market.
Sorry if some of that sounded harsh, but I think we’d all be better off with more honesty and realism on these topics. I hope you find the right person!
I wonder if your personal situation is an example of the changes we’ve seen with the increasingly central role online dating has on individuals matching with potential partners.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8600582/
The article details how men match far less frequently than women, with most matches by women for males enjoyed by only a small population of highly desired males.
Highly desired males have a far greater selection of females to choose from than average males, and would be far more likely to enjoy the benefits without the relationship commitment.
Your being ghosted immediately following matching or their failed efforts at immediate physical intimacy may be an indicator that you are only pursuing highly desired males.
If so, then maybe you are caught in loop where your initial choices in highly desirable males have a ‘cereal aisle syndrome’ or Netflix scrolling problem in selecting you.
To be blunt, maybe visually you are an 8 striving to match with a 10?
Getting beyond just the visual and to the substantial requires in person meeting for most males to void being filtered out.
I can’t really offer any advice other than keep your ‘attack surface area’ high to increase opportunities for serendipity!
Don’t underestimate serendipity.
And just surf the waves life sends your way.
Good luck and I hope you are happy and full of purpose regardless of relationship and kid status.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8600582/
The article details how men match far less frequently than women, with most matches by women for males enjoyed by only a small population of highly desired males.
Highly desired males have a far greater selection of females to choose from than average males, and would be far more likely to enjoy the benefits without the relationship commitment.
Your being ghosted immediately following matching or their failed efforts at immediate physical intimacy may be an indicator that you are only pursuing highly desired males.
If so, then maybe you are caught in loop where your initial choices in highly desirable males have a ‘cereal aisle syndrome’ or Netflix scrolling problem in selecting you.
To be blunt, maybe visually you are an 8 striving to match with a 10?
Getting beyond just the visual and to the substantial requires in person meeting for most males to void being filtered out.
I can’t really offer any advice other than keep your ‘attack surface area’ high to increase opportunities for serendipity!
Don’t underestimate serendipity.
And just surf the waves life sends your way.
Good luck and I hope you are happy and full of purpose regardless of relationship and kid status.
There is nothing wrong with waiting a bit longer to get intimate. Be sure to communicate clearly what you're looking for up front!
> the guys immediately lost interest and ghosted me after things got physically intimate
It's often a power game: the more leverage you have, the better terms you can set. Women can filter out men interested in casual sex by making it everything but casual: making them wait, increasing the effort required, increasing the dating costs. You mentioned going on 120+ dates so I assume you have a large pool of men from which you can select.
It's often a power game: the more leverage you have, the better terms you can set. Women can filter out men interested in casual sex by making it everything but casual: making them wait, increasing the effort required, increasing the dating costs. You mentioned going on 120+ dates so I assume you have a large pool of men from which you can select.
[deleted]
I did actually have one that led to a long term relationship. I was very very much in love but ultimately my partner did not want to have kids with me , primarily because of a serious mental health issue he needed to pay attention to, so I chose to end it after a year.
The individuals in your pool of 120 aren't dating for the same reasons you are.
Indians have arranged marriages and community websites dedicated to finding a partner to marry. Perhaps changing the makeup of individuals in your dating pool will yield you better results?
Best of luck.
Indians have arranged marriages and community websites dedicated to finding a partner to marry. Perhaps changing the makeup of individuals in your dating pool will yield you better results?
Best of luck.
There's only one piece of advice I'd give - Don't be an askhole.
And no, that's not a typo.
And no, that's not a typo.
Have you ever told any of your dates how much effort you are put into finding a partner? If not, why not?
Are you allowing yourself to br vulnerable on dates? If not, it is unlikely that the neccesary attraction is created for a long lasting relationship.
Are you allowing yourself to br vulnerable on dates? If not, it is unlikely that the neccesary attraction is created for a long lasting relationship.
Pray to St. Raphael the Archangel, patron saint of true love. (Read the Book of Tobit)
I am not an indian but the puzzling thing about arranged marriages that I have seen is how it somehow just works - does it not having seen any stats but just observation of colleagues.
But I don't think it will work in a Western culture.
But I don't think it will work in a Western culture.
Go here: https://austinswingsyndicate.org/
I haven't been to Austin, so this is a generic recommendation from google. But the idea is sound.
I haven't been to Austin, so this is a generic recommendation from google. But the idea is sound.
You're a control freak. But you can't control love. I'd suggest you let go. Perhaps the Universe is telling you that should help people, instead of trying to subdue them. Open your heart and let people in.
From here, it sounds like you're trying too hard and it's coming across as desperate or lacking in confidence.
I live near downtown ATX. I'm technically tipsy HN'ing at this hour after going out to 6th and Rainey with a buddy. Heh :)
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your data source was mistaken. The SF Bay Area has the most skewed educated gender ratio in the entire US of any metro. It's not called "Man Jose" for no reason, every bar is a sausagefest, and every other person in Sunnyvale and Mountain View is a software engineer.
It sounds bad to say, but I can basically pick any woman from 18-45 and they're way more attractive in ATX than anywhere except LA. Unfortunately, not all people (women and men included) in ATX specifically are adults where it count. Most people in ATX aren't looking to settle down. Ask me how I know that too. (The worst are the relationship upgrader women out for the next "hotter" guy and/or bigger paycheck who spontaneously forget they have a BF or a spouse. Pump-and-dump material.)
ProTip: Never rent or lease in ATX near a pool unless your goal is to party 24/7.
Dating apps tend to less useful in ATX specifically where socializing is expected. Talk to people in real life casually like human beings without expectations. The more people you talk to and share good vibes with, the more you increase your odds for all kinds of good things.
There are no hacks or shortcuts but connecting with a human being and seeing where it can go rather than focusing on achieving a particular status. No one wants to couple with someone who wants to use them to reach a dream rather than appreciate the real them first and foremost.
TL;DR: Chill out and socialize. Try some CBD if it helps. :)
I live near downtown ATX. I'm technically tipsy HN'ing at this hour after going out to 6th and Rainey with a buddy. Heh :)
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your data source was mistaken. The SF Bay Area has the most skewed educated gender ratio in the entire US of any metro. It's not called "Man Jose" for no reason, every bar is a sausagefest, and every other person in Sunnyvale and Mountain View is a software engineer.
It sounds bad to say, but I can basically pick any woman from 18-45 and they're way more attractive in ATX than anywhere except LA. Unfortunately, not all people (women and men included) in ATX specifically are adults where it count. Most people in ATX aren't looking to settle down. Ask me how I know that too. (The worst are the relationship upgrader women out for the next "hotter" guy and/or bigger paycheck who spontaneously forget they have a BF or a spouse. Pump-and-dump material.)
ProTip: Never rent or lease in ATX near a pool unless your goal is to party 24/7.
Dating apps tend to less useful in ATX specifically where socializing is expected. Talk to people in real life casually like human beings without expectations. The more people you talk to and share good vibes with, the more you increase your odds for all kinds of good things.
There are no hacks or shortcuts but connecting with a human being and seeing where it can go rather than focusing on achieving a particular status. No one wants to couple with someone who wants to use them to reach a dream rather than appreciate the real them first and foremost.
TL;DR: Chill out and socialize. Try some CBD if it helps. :)
I'm close to your age, male, been married for quite a while, kids. So take what I write with appropriate amounts of salt, because things definitely look different at 41 than 21.
I've had some guy friends who have been similarly focused on getting married. Great guys, who for the record, are now married to lovely women. But it definitely didn't happen on their timelines or on the paths they intended.
By now you've almost certainly got your list of must-haves and dealbreakers set. But it's interesting that you've been pretty vague about the reasons that most of your relationships haven't worked out. I don't think you're being evasive. But I do think maybe you just don't know. For any given guy, you can give a yes/no answer, but maybe you can't say why.
So let me ask you about your dreams of falling in love and having a family, because there might be some clues in there. What _are_ your dreams? Are they dreams of tying a bow in the hair of your 4-year-old daughter in a princess dress? Watching your 10-year-old head off to summer science camp? Wedding day? Baby shower? Bringing the new baby home from the hospital? Volunteering at the kid's school? Arranging the perfect birthday party?
Or are they dreams about long walks on the beach with your husband? Walking down the aisle on your wedding day? Going line dancing? The two of you making dinner together and snuggling up on the couch to watch a pretentious artsy film and MST3K it? Or family camping trips? Cross-country drives to see the national parks? (Side note: if, in the previous paragraph, you didn't quite notice that none of those items involved a husband, that's worth reflecting on. Not worth getting worked up about, but worth reflecting on.)
The dreams you've had all your life might help you understand what it is that's keeping your dates from turning into more. For example, if you pictured an adventurous husband who'd teach your kids to ride horses and you realize you're dating super-placid, risk-averse dudes, that might be a light-bulb moment.
Two pieces of advice, then a bit of encouragement.
First, it seems like you're hyper-focused on getting married. Relax. Observe. Enjoy. Meet some guys with the express purpose of getting honest feedback on how you come across. In your own mind, take marriage off the table for six months to a year. Just plain not allowed. Maaaaaaybe you can date. If you've a trusted friend, she can give you permission to go on a second date if there's a guy that's just perfect.
Second, there's a surprisingly deep piece of advice hidden in the trite-sounding "become the person the person you're looking for is looking for". You need to know who/what you're looking for. To do that, you need to know yourself well enough to know who/what you're looking for, and that you're not adding extra criteria on top of that. ("He has to be kind...oh, and handsome! and rich! and famous!") It sounds like you've been working on yourself, but maybe a little bit more focused on making yourself a better catch, rather than on figuring out what you're going after and choosing the right bait (to stretch the fishing analogy too far!).
So that advice really all kind of fits together.
But now, the encouragement.
If your guy friends are telling you you're smart, beautiful, fit, kind, emotionally mature, well, I've never met you. I'll trust what they're saying. Ms. Actfrench, I agree with them. You are smart and beautiful and kind. You're working to make the world a better place. That's remarkable. If one of my daughters turned 41 and wasn't married, but was smart and beautiful and kind and working to make the world a better place, I'd tell her I was proud of her and it'd be the truth. And I'd tell her this, too, if she were anxious to get married: It's discouraging when things don't work out the way you want them to. So keep on making the world a better place. And as you're doing that, there will come a time when you'll look to your right or your left and see a guy who's also working to make the world a better place and you think he might be something special, give him a chance. Maybe he'll be the one you get to make the world a better place with, together.
(Hope this helps!)
I've had some guy friends who have been similarly focused on getting married. Great guys, who for the record, are now married to lovely women. But it definitely didn't happen on their timelines or on the paths they intended.
By now you've almost certainly got your list of must-haves and dealbreakers set. But it's interesting that you've been pretty vague about the reasons that most of your relationships haven't worked out. I don't think you're being evasive. But I do think maybe you just don't know. For any given guy, you can give a yes/no answer, but maybe you can't say why.
So let me ask you about your dreams of falling in love and having a family, because there might be some clues in there. What _are_ your dreams? Are they dreams of tying a bow in the hair of your 4-year-old daughter in a princess dress? Watching your 10-year-old head off to summer science camp? Wedding day? Baby shower? Bringing the new baby home from the hospital? Volunteering at the kid's school? Arranging the perfect birthday party?
Or are they dreams about long walks on the beach with your husband? Walking down the aisle on your wedding day? Going line dancing? The two of you making dinner together and snuggling up on the couch to watch a pretentious artsy film and MST3K it? Or family camping trips? Cross-country drives to see the national parks? (Side note: if, in the previous paragraph, you didn't quite notice that none of those items involved a husband, that's worth reflecting on. Not worth getting worked up about, but worth reflecting on.)
The dreams you've had all your life might help you understand what it is that's keeping your dates from turning into more. For example, if you pictured an adventurous husband who'd teach your kids to ride horses and you realize you're dating super-placid, risk-averse dudes, that might be a light-bulb moment.
Two pieces of advice, then a bit of encouragement.
First, it seems like you're hyper-focused on getting married. Relax. Observe. Enjoy. Meet some guys with the express purpose of getting honest feedback on how you come across. In your own mind, take marriage off the table for six months to a year. Just plain not allowed. Maaaaaaybe you can date. If you've a trusted friend, she can give you permission to go on a second date if there's a guy that's just perfect.
Second, there's a surprisingly deep piece of advice hidden in the trite-sounding "become the person the person you're looking for is looking for". You need to know who/what you're looking for. To do that, you need to know yourself well enough to know who/what you're looking for, and that you're not adding extra criteria on top of that. ("He has to be kind...oh, and handsome! and rich! and famous!") It sounds like you've been working on yourself, but maybe a little bit more focused on making yourself a better catch, rather than on figuring out what you're going after and choosing the right bait (to stretch the fishing analogy too far!).
So that advice really all kind of fits together.
But now, the encouragement.
If your guy friends are telling you you're smart, beautiful, fit, kind, emotionally mature, well, I've never met you. I'll trust what they're saying. Ms. Actfrench, I agree with them. You are smart and beautiful and kind. You're working to make the world a better place. That's remarkable. If one of my daughters turned 41 and wasn't married, but was smart and beautiful and kind and working to make the world a better place, I'd tell her I was proud of her and it'd be the truth. And I'd tell her this, too, if she were anxious to get married: It's discouraging when things don't work out the way you want them to. So keep on making the world a better place. And as you're doing that, there will come a time when you'll look to your right or your left and see a guy who's also working to make the world a better place and you think he might be something special, give him a chance. Maybe he'll be the one you get to make the world a better place with, together.
(Hope this helps!)
So keep on making the world a better place. And as you're doing that, there will come a time when you'll look to your right or your left and see a guy who's also working to make the world a better place and you think he might be something special, give him a chance. Maybe he'll be the one you get to make the world a better place with, together.
Wise words.
Wise words.
What's gone wrong with all the guys you've met?
I'm sure you can find someone before your time runs out. But without know what's going wrong it's hard to suggest any changes in strategy.
I'm sure you can find someone before your time runs out. But without know what's going wrong it's hard to suggest any changes in strategy.
Also I was in my mid 30s when I started dating my wife. A week later we were engaged. 3 months later married. 3 years on our first is due in 7 weeks.
Once you're sure things can happen really quickly.
Once you're sure things can happen really quickly.
Keep unmarried. As a married man I can say that marriage and having a kid habe their own quirks and when I look back it was just trading A for B with A not necessarily worse than B.
I'm sorry you've had that experience, but please don't over-project your experience on others. Marriage is a mistake for some, but it's a good thing for others, and the OP sounds like she already has a clear idea of what she wants.
No I'm not. I'm just saying it's a possibility that OP may experience.
Always go on a second date if they are respectful and genuinely interested.
Date obese people. They deserve love as much as anyone else, but aren't treated that way.
Try to date divorced men with children since you know they most likely value children, vs a 40yo bachelor which indicates the opposite.
edit:
Point is you know exactly what you value: a family man to love and build a happy family.
You must accept that you are deeply marginalized in this situation given the time frame, and the realistic response is compromise. Drop all other standards and focus on what you actually value: love and family.
Filter against general attractiveness and fitness. Filter for words like "father" and "family". Filter for short men. Etc. Etc.
Date obese people. They deserve love as much as anyone else, but aren't treated that way.
Try to date divorced men with children since you know they most likely value children, vs a 40yo bachelor which indicates the opposite.
edit:
Point is you know exactly what you value: a family man to love and build a happy family.
You must accept that you are deeply marginalized in this situation given the time frame, and the realistic response is compromise. Drop all other standards and focus on what you actually value: love and family.
Filter against general attractiveness and fitness. Filter for words like "father" and "family". Filter for short men. Etc. Etc.
> Please encouragement only, no discouragement. I’m discouraged enough already.
Please, ask your therapist why you are not married and paste the answer here.
Watch Kevin Samuels on youtube.
Please, ask your therapist why you are not married and paste the answer here.
Watch Kevin Samuels on youtube.
Compromise and marry. Time is running out, and the new dating tech is incredibly good.
you'll get a 100/100 match, 60% should be good enough
you'll get a 100/100 match, 60% should be good enough
A lot of useful things have already been said, so I'll attempt to add value by asking a few questions that might be useful for you to ponder. I'll be as constructive and encouraging as I can.
1. You mentioned you were raised by a single mom - have you seen a healthy marriage before? Perhaps the marriage of close friend or relative? Right now, you have some image in your mind about what "falling in love" and "having a family" means. Where did this image come from? All of us are affected by TV and movies, of course, but, as an adult, you need to see real flesh-and-blood marriages, up-close. Find one or two couples you trust and respect and just ask, and they should be happy to let you in and help. Figure out how to answer this question - what does a good marriage look like to you?
2. More generally, it seems that you are in introspective person - lots of books, podcasts, therapy, exercise, apps. You've dated a lot. But it seems like it's solitary endeavor for you. Do you have close friends/family? Do you have someone you absolutely trust, who understands your life in enough detail that they can see through the "everything's great, how about you?" surface layer? Basically, it's tough to keep your own counsel, to be your own dating coach. You need someone else who can be a loving critic. Ideally, someone who is mature and relationally-successful.
3. We, as ego-protecting humans, have an incredible capacity for self-deception. Something isn't quite adding up. Given your qualities, your evident desire, and your extensive efforts - you should have been more successful they you currently are. Are you sure you're telling the whole story here? For example, some people deeply desire emotional intimacy, but become fearful when actual intimacy is within reach, because they can't bring themselves to show true vulnerability, and risk true rejection. Some people don't want to lose optionality, as, after all, marrying one person means losing out on the option of marrying anyone else. There's something missing here. You don't have to tell me, but it is important that you tell yourself.
4. While often unpleasant to think about, dating has a comparative, competitive aspect. At the very least, your competition will include 30-year-olds who resemble what you were like at 30. In what ways have your grown and become better than the 30-year-old you? What is your "competitive advantage"? And what kind of man will value and appreciate these qualities? Who is your "target audience"? Bluntly, what type of guy is going to pick you over the 30-year-old version of you?
5. Not a question, but I want to agree with comments encouraging you to look at "second-hand men". Basically, you missed the first bus, where all the conventional/normal people paired up between 25-35 years old. What's left are those who didn't get paired-up, or were paired-up but no longer are (divorced, widowed). You might have to go outside the apps, and maybe outside your usual circles in Austin to find them. Almost by definition, they will not be on the stereotypical life trajectory. In my mind, you're looking for someone who has been knocked down but has gotten back up, someone that life has already sanded away the rough edges. My aunt got married pretty late (40), and she found a chain-smoking, obese businessman who was working himself into an early grave. He quit smoking for her, started losing weight, and their two kids are now in college. He's a really cool guy, super funny and generous. How she saw that, back then, I don't know. Somehow I don't think the apps would have matched them.
6. Also not a question - but, if you haven't noticed, people in Texas tend to get married early, and Austin is a college town - there will be an endless supply of marriage-minded 20-year-old women there. Food for thought.
Good luck. And in case it matters, I am a happily-married Texan man with two kids, and, if you ever decide to convert to Christianity, I'd be happy to introduce you to an eligible (and slim and tall) doctor with a somewhat controlling mother.
1. You mentioned you were raised by a single mom - have you seen a healthy marriage before? Perhaps the marriage of close friend or relative? Right now, you have some image in your mind about what "falling in love" and "having a family" means. Where did this image come from? All of us are affected by TV and movies, of course, but, as an adult, you need to see real flesh-and-blood marriages, up-close. Find one or two couples you trust and respect and just ask, and they should be happy to let you in and help. Figure out how to answer this question - what does a good marriage look like to you?
2. More generally, it seems that you are in introspective person - lots of books, podcasts, therapy, exercise, apps. You've dated a lot. But it seems like it's solitary endeavor for you. Do you have close friends/family? Do you have someone you absolutely trust, who understands your life in enough detail that they can see through the "everything's great, how about you?" surface layer? Basically, it's tough to keep your own counsel, to be your own dating coach. You need someone else who can be a loving critic. Ideally, someone who is mature and relationally-successful.
3. We, as ego-protecting humans, have an incredible capacity for self-deception. Something isn't quite adding up. Given your qualities, your evident desire, and your extensive efforts - you should have been more successful they you currently are. Are you sure you're telling the whole story here? For example, some people deeply desire emotional intimacy, but become fearful when actual intimacy is within reach, because they can't bring themselves to show true vulnerability, and risk true rejection. Some people don't want to lose optionality, as, after all, marrying one person means losing out on the option of marrying anyone else. There's something missing here. You don't have to tell me, but it is important that you tell yourself.
4. While often unpleasant to think about, dating has a comparative, competitive aspect. At the very least, your competition will include 30-year-olds who resemble what you were like at 30. In what ways have your grown and become better than the 30-year-old you? What is your "competitive advantage"? And what kind of man will value and appreciate these qualities? Who is your "target audience"? Bluntly, what type of guy is going to pick you over the 30-year-old version of you?
5. Not a question, but I want to agree with comments encouraging you to look at "second-hand men". Basically, you missed the first bus, where all the conventional/normal people paired up between 25-35 years old. What's left are those who didn't get paired-up, or were paired-up but no longer are (divorced, widowed). You might have to go outside the apps, and maybe outside your usual circles in Austin to find them. Almost by definition, they will not be on the stereotypical life trajectory. In my mind, you're looking for someone who has been knocked down but has gotten back up, someone that life has already sanded away the rough edges. My aunt got married pretty late (40), and she found a chain-smoking, obese businessman who was working himself into an early grave. He quit smoking for her, started losing weight, and their two kids are now in college. He's a really cool guy, super funny and generous. How she saw that, back then, I don't know. Somehow I don't think the apps would have matched them.
6. Also not a question - but, if you haven't noticed, people in Texas tend to get married early, and Austin is a college town - there will be an endless supply of marriage-minded 20-year-old women there. Food for thought.
Good luck. And in case it matters, I am a happily-married Texan man with two kids, and, if you ever decide to convert to Christianity, I'd be happy to introduce you to an eligible (and slim and tall) doctor with a somewhat controlling mother.
Have you considered IVF to reduce the time pressure so that you can make a better decision in the long run?
I did get my eggs frozen :)
> I did get my eggs frozen
Looking back, I sort of wish we'd started with the kids somewhat earlier (#1 was born when I was 34).
Having said that, we did a load of stuff before that that we couldn't have done had we had kids sooner.
Life has a habit of throwing curveballs. Having kids just adds to that, massively.
Looking back, I sort of wish we'd started with the kids somewhat earlier (#1 was born when I was 34).
Having said that, we did a load of stuff before that that we couldn't have done had we had kids sooner.
Life has a habit of throwing curveballs. Having kids just adds to that, massively.
Go on a vacation with an engineer and make him breakfast and and hug him daily. (Worked for my wife)
Perhaps surrender to the idea of "having an accident" as a blessing. I mean that in multiple ways. You sound quite analytical, that means you'll be able to figure out any problem your family ever requires of you. Surrender to passion, have some fun, make love, the babies are what matter more than anything. You don't need to be convinced that you love someone to have a child, you can make the relationship work and find love within it. The love of a child vs a partner is a thing of itself to sprout purpose and 'family.'
It's about the kids, relationships follow after. You have a fear of being a single mom. Try to release that fear. Less mind, more gut. The mind can't feel passion, it directly convinces oneself to avoid it. Passion, love, is very much in the moment and also in and out. Obviously you'd sense a deadbeat. Obviously you have good head on your shoulders. Let fate do its thing and stop over analyzing.
Set an intention that you're going to have a kid, surrender to the universe and flow with what comes your way. More like dancing, less like tests. You know pretty immediately if you vibe on the dance floor. Swing with that flow and just listen to that heart.
It's about the kids, relationships follow after. You have a fear of being a single mom. Try to release that fear. Less mind, more gut. The mind can't feel passion, it directly convinces oneself to avoid it. Passion, love, is very much in the moment and also in and out. Obviously you'd sense a deadbeat. Obviously you have good head on your shoulders. Let fate do its thing and stop over analyzing.
Set an intention that you're going to have a kid, surrender to the universe and flow with what comes your way. More like dancing, less like tests. You know pretty immediately if you vibe on the dance floor. Swing with that flow and just listen to that heart.
I have a friend that’s kind of similar to how you’ve described yourself. She’s in her mid thirties, and she calls me for dating/relationship advice and we always laugh together about how absurd her situation is.
At the end of the day, for her, she doesn’t really know what she wants in a partner. By that I don’t mean she doesn’t know whether or not she wants to get married or have kids, but more granular detail like “Do I need an exercise buddy?” “How important is it how they comport themselves at sex parties?” “Do I want to be involved in their family?” etc.
I read your entire post and learned nearly nothing about you as an individual so I can’t really dispense any earnest advice.
I do have questions though!
1. Is there a common theme of what ends these relationships or stops them from maturing? If so, what?
2. What is your relationship history? e.g. have you ever had a serious or long term relationship? If so, what happened there? If not, do you have any idea why that is the case?
3. Have you dated any of your male friends? In my experience, the absolute best way to start a healthy relationship is to start with a healthy friendship. This isn’t a hard and fast rule, but companionship rocks.
At the end of the day, for her, she doesn’t really know what she wants in a partner. By that I don’t mean she doesn’t know whether or not she wants to get married or have kids, but more granular detail like “Do I need an exercise buddy?” “How important is it how they comport themselves at sex parties?” “Do I want to be involved in their family?” etc.
I read your entire post and learned nearly nothing about you as an individual so I can’t really dispense any earnest advice.
I do have questions though!
1. Is there a common theme of what ends these relationships or stops them from maturing? If so, what?
2. What is your relationship history? e.g. have you ever had a serious or long term relationship? If so, what happened there? If not, do you have any idea why that is the case?
3. Have you dated any of your male friends? In my experience, the absolute best way to start a healthy relationship is to start with a healthy friendship. This isn’t a hard and fast rule, but companionship rocks.
It seems you are trying too hard and also "selling the farm" in the process.
I feel like going on dates and being pro-active about reading etc is better than sitting alone in my house pining for a boyfriend, which I did for about 5-7 years. No?
[deleted]
Maybe going out not on dates and just doing things you enjoy will lead to meeting people you have things in common with?
My $0.02 is you are spending way too much time trying to find The One™ and the guys (not just solely trying to hookup) are getting that vibe and running for the exit. Dudes get jittery when they think they’re walking into a baby trap, you have to sneak up on them. Kind of like taming a horse really, probably some good YouTubes videos on how to wear a man…err, horse down so you can saddle ‘em up and take a whip to them.
Yeah, I’m single too surprisingly enough…
My $0.02 is you are spending way too much time trying to find The One™ and the guys (not just solely trying to hookup) are getting that vibe and running for the exit. Dudes get jittery when they think they’re walking into a baby trap, you have to sneak up on them. Kind of like taming a horse really, probably some good YouTubes videos on how to wear a man…err, horse down so you can saddle ‘em up and take a whip to them.
Yeah, I’m single too surprisingly enough…
I’m happy to chat if you like. I’m a Dating Coach - www.alittlenudge.com. I will say, though, that I don’t allow people to say “still” anything. You’re not still unmarried, as if there is only one solution. You are simply single and looking. This is not a contest or a race. It’s your life.
I hope it works out for you!
What I've read here, in your original post and the many answers you provided, made me think that you are a very intelligent, kind and interesting woman.
Many have given you a lot of good advice, I'll try to add my thoughts.
You talk about your age and the fact that you are "running out of time" as a problem in finding the right person. I don't think it's actually a problem. You can use that to your advantage.
You are in a position in which you can - and in my opinion you should - make super clear what you are looking for. A man to have a family, very quickly.
By saying this upfront, it's absolutely true that you will scare off most men. But you do not need to find many men. You only need one. You need to find the one man out there that is willing to start a family with you. With all the pros and cons you, as a person, bring.
Having this in mind, I agree with you that you, as a woman, can be in control of the process. Just as a man would do, I would suggest you to be the "predator". Go and find the person you want and then lead the relationship toward your goal, in a trustworthy and transparent manner, of course.
The last thing I'd like to add is about expectations. You sound like an alpha woman (I say it as a very good thing). For that, I suspect you won't be able to find an alpha man though. That's not because you have something wrong. On the contrary, it's because most men are scared by women smarter or more achieving than them. And that's on them. A true alpha man will probably be looking for a much younger woman, so the chances of finding one are extremely slim.
The good news is that there are plenty of men that would love to partner with an alpha woman. The only problem is that they'll never admit it. So it is on you to take the lead. As long as they can feel as the man of the couple (in bed, or in day to day decisions, or in whatever they think makes them The men), you being more achieving won't be a problem. If you have a good salary, I bet most men would love that.
As actionable advice I'd say this: on any online platform you can think of, go and describe yourself as you did here (maybe leave out numbers, few men like women with more experience than them...). Most men are attracted to women who appear vulnerable (not a native English speaker, I hope the word is correct). The amount of replies you got here is pretty good evidence of that.
So go out and show every man you can that you are vulnerable because you want a family and you struggle to find the right one. Someone will want to be that one.
When that happens, you take the lead, and at that point accept him for whatever he is. He will probably be less smart and less attractive than you. Go past that, because it's very likely that he will be the best person for you to build a family with.
If you manage to read this, and decide to go forward with any of my suggestions, I'd love to know how things turn out for you. Good luck!
Many have given you a lot of good advice, I'll try to add my thoughts.
You talk about your age and the fact that you are "running out of time" as a problem in finding the right person. I don't think it's actually a problem. You can use that to your advantage.
You are in a position in which you can - and in my opinion you should - make super clear what you are looking for. A man to have a family, very quickly.
By saying this upfront, it's absolutely true that you will scare off most men. But you do not need to find many men. You only need one. You need to find the one man out there that is willing to start a family with you. With all the pros and cons you, as a person, bring.
Having this in mind, I agree with you that you, as a woman, can be in control of the process. Just as a man would do, I would suggest you to be the "predator". Go and find the person you want and then lead the relationship toward your goal, in a trustworthy and transparent manner, of course.
The last thing I'd like to add is about expectations. You sound like an alpha woman (I say it as a very good thing). For that, I suspect you won't be able to find an alpha man though. That's not because you have something wrong. On the contrary, it's because most men are scared by women smarter or more achieving than them. And that's on them. A true alpha man will probably be looking for a much younger woman, so the chances of finding one are extremely slim.
The good news is that there are plenty of men that would love to partner with an alpha woman. The only problem is that they'll never admit it. So it is on you to take the lead. As long as they can feel as the man of the couple (in bed, or in day to day decisions, or in whatever they think makes them The men), you being more achieving won't be a problem. If you have a good salary, I bet most men would love that.
As actionable advice I'd say this: on any online platform you can think of, go and describe yourself as you did here (maybe leave out numbers, few men like women with more experience than them...). Most men are attracted to women who appear vulnerable (not a native English speaker, I hope the word is correct). The amount of replies you got here is pretty good evidence of that.
So go out and show every man you can that you are vulnerable because you want a family and you struggle to find the right one. Someone will want to be that one.
When that happens, you take the lead, and at that point accept him for whatever he is. He will probably be less smart and less attractive than you. Go past that, because it's very likely that he will be the best person for you to build a family with.
If you manage to read this, and decide to go forward with any of my suggestions, I'd love to know how things turn out for you. Good luck!
(writing this a couple beers in).
Given what you said, I'm guessing you are an extremely desirable woman. So much so that you are caught in the trap of looking for your equal. My sister in law was in a similar situation, she was looking for a man who checked all the boxes, from attractive, socially high class, well off, and everything in between.
As she reached her late 30's she pretty much just "settled" for an acquaintance she had been friends with, and dated on those weekends when she didn't have a better choice. (AKA he married up a lot). Even so, she had a terrible time conceiving.
Given I'm in Austin TX. I probably know a few men eligible men (AKA fairly social, high earners who are at least average in the looks dept, and plenty charming), but I'm guessing from what you said, you probably dated one or more of them. The pool at the top isn't that big. And frankly, many of the remaining unmarried men who fit that bill aren't interested in marriage. Why should they be, they can mostly get any woman they want, whenever they want, and have little interest in children.
Other comments have given you what I might offer as advice, but given your age I'm going to offer what I know a few women also did... Which is, if you truly don't know any men who would marry you tomorrow (I find that unlikely) go to the local fertility clinic and thumb through the donors catalog and pick a man you find attractive, and pay to be artificially inseminated. Women in the early 40's fertility drops off a cliff and post ~42 most women need fertility treatments past that age and the likelihood of an uneventful pregnancy is falling like a rock (something you probably know). Given Austin, you can probably skip the fertility clinic and find a short term man willing to do the deed if you assured him it was no strings attached.
Either way, the point is, if you want a genetic child, do it _NOW_, there are plenty of divorced men/etc who won't mind you are a single mother, and might even be willing to raise a child who isn't their own. Particularly if they have children of their own, of which you will find plenty of men who can share parental responsibility with you if your willing to be a step mother to their children.
Basically, at this point in your life, if you want to be a mother, just do it, you can probably afford it, and given your posting here, plenty of tech companies will give you a reasonable maternal leave. And in the end, its probably easier to find a man in their mid/late 40's willing to co-raise your child than one willing to start over.
Also, given your in Austin TX, it might be worthwhile temporary moving to a more liberal state for your own safety. Pregnancy is dangerous enough for a 30 year old woman, a 40 year old faces even higher risks, some of which can go from normal pregnancy to life threatening in a matter of a few hours. I think most tech companies are very understanding about remote work from a safer location these days.
Yah, I know this isn't the advice you wanted, trading that perfect fairy tail life, for the life of a single mother isn't encouraging, but you have to decide what is more important. Having children of your own, or continuing to gamble with the very short time you have remaining. As my sister in law discovered as a woman trying to get pregnant at 38-40 and spending tens of thousands in fertility treatments, nothing is guaranteed. Eventually she had a child but it looked really bleak for a year or so after the first treatments failed.
Given what you said, I'm guessing you are an extremely desirable woman. So much so that you are caught in the trap of looking for your equal. My sister in law was in a similar situation, she was looking for a man who checked all the boxes, from attractive, socially high class, well off, and everything in between.
As she reached her late 30's she pretty much just "settled" for an acquaintance she had been friends with, and dated on those weekends when she didn't have a better choice. (AKA he married up a lot). Even so, she had a terrible time conceiving.
Given I'm in Austin TX. I probably know a few men eligible men (AKA fairly social, high earners who are at least average in the looks dept, and plenty charming), but I'm guessing from what you said, you probably dated one or more of them. The pool at the top isn't that big. And frankly, many of the remaining unmarried men who fit that bill aren't interested in marriage. Why should they be, they can mostly get any woman they want, whenever they want, and have little interest in children.
Other comments have given you what I might offer as advice, but given your age I'm going to offer what I know a few women also did... Which is, if you truly don't know any men who would marry you tomorrow (I find that unlikely) go to the local fertility clinic and thumb through the donors catalog and pick a man you find attractive, and pay to be artificially inseminated. Women in the early 40's fertility drops off a cliff and post ~42 most women need fertility treatments past that age and the likelihood of an uneventful pregnancy is falling like a rock (something you probably know). Given Austin, you can probably skip the fertility clinic and find a short term man willing to do the deed if you assured him it was no strings attached.
Either way, the point is, if you want a genetic child, do it _NOW_, there are plenty of divorced men/etc who won't mind you are a single mother, and might even be willing to raise a child who isn't their own. Particularly if they have children of their own, of which you will find plenty of men who can share parental responsibility with you if your willing to be a step mother to their children.
Basically, at this point in your life, if you want to be a mother, just do it, you can probably afford it, and given your posting here, plenty of tech companies will give you a reasonable maternal leave. And in the end, its probably easier to find a man in their mid/late 40's willing to co-raise your child than one willing to start over.
Also, given your in Austin TX, it might be worthwhile temporary moving to a more liberal state for your own safety. Pregnancy is dangerous enough for a 30 year old woman, a 40 year old faces even higher risks, some of which can go from normal pregnancy to life threatening in a matter of a few hours. I think most tech companies are very understanding about remote work from a safer location these days.
Yah, I know this isn't the advice you wanted, trading that perfect fairy tail life, for the life of a single mother isn't encouraging, but you have to decide what is more important. Having children of your own, or continuing to gamble with the very short time you have remaining. As my sister in law discovered as a woman trying to get pregnant at 38-40 and spending tens of thousands in fertility treatments, nothing is guaranteed. Eventually she had a child but it looked really bleak for a year or so after the first treatments failed.
[deleted]
Watch the following
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4FF2XkzGMCg
and try to understand and ask the universe for help.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4FF2XkzGMCg
and try to understand and ask the universe for help.
I definitely talk to the universe a lot but it doesn’t seem to talk back to me very much in this particular category
Try Vedic astrology also.
https://www.benorenstein.com/
Might help! I remember thinking this was a cool approach.
Might help! I remember thinking this was a cool approach.
"My time for having children is running out."
You like dates! You may be addicted to dates [knowingly or not]. There is nothing wrong with that.
You like dates! You may be addicted to dates [knowingly or not]. There is nothing wrong with that.
Lol. I wish I liked online dating. I find it torture and only force myself to do it with a great accountability partner hoping the odds are I’ll meet someone great.
Hey, Manisha
1) What is your zodiac sign?:) I know , stupid question, but anyway, what is your birth day and month?
2) Little lifehack when choosing between the candidates, the guy you want to marry is the one who will make you smile and even laugh every time you meet him
3) check the book "mathematics of love" and the mathematical lecture by Gusein Zade called "picky bride". Alternatively by Martin Gardner. That may help :)
4) Best of luck:)
1) What is your zodiac sign?:) I know , stupid question, but anyway, what is your birth day and month?
2) Little lifehack when choosing between the candidates, the guy you want to marry is the one who will make you smile and even laugh every time you meet him
3) check the book "mathematics of love" and the mathematical lecture by Gusein Zade called "picky bride". Alternatively by Martin Gardner. That may help :)
4) Best of luck:)
Very sweet of you to ask.
I'm starting to get a little concerned about how much personal information I've already divulged on this thread but if you reach out to me individually, I'd be happy to tell you my birthday and add you as a friend on the Pattern.
I'm a Pisces.
And great recommendations. I hadn't heard these before.
I'm starting to get a little concerned about how much personal information I've already divulged on this thread but if you reach out to me individually, I'd be happy to tell you my birthday and add you as a friend on the Pattern.
I'm a Pisces.
And great recommendations. I hadn't heard these before.
Time. That is what is wrong with her....or lacking of it. Women has very limited time for child bearing compare to men. Give and take is around 20-25 years. Anything beyond that will be very difficult even if you factor in modern medicine. Risk of deffective birth is also very high for late age pregnancy. Being nice to people telling is ok is not really good in her scenario.
I’d be cautious of taking dating advice from this site, as it’s dominated by young men and can sometimes lean in the red pill direction. (Though I am pleased to see that most of the top rated comments in this thread appear fairly mature.)
Have you tried asking Metafilter? I’ve often found that the community there gives good relationship and dating advice. The site leans older, more liberal arts, and more gender balanced.
Have you tried asking Metafilter? I’ve often found that the community there gives good relationship and dating advice. The site leans older, more liberal arts, and more gender balanced.
I will try it! It’s been interesting reading everyone’s comments though some have been a little intense especially near the bottom :)
How did this get through?
This is one of the harsh realities leftists struggle with most. Their world view is a carefully constructed denial of reality. Then, suddenly something that can't be pretended away - like a perimenopausal woman who thinks kids are in her future - causes a shitstorm. At the top of the comment section, daydreamers offering her comforting lies. At the bottom, people laughing at another victim of a cult ideology.
just accept, marriage is overrated, I'm 36 and unmarried also
Is that 120 first dates?
No one out of ten I had second or third dates with
Oh, sorry. That's rough. I got to the point where I was going to start invoicing dating websites for all the money I spent on dating (food, booze, time spent). I was in the upper double digits and almost gave up. I eventually just started giving potential partners more time. Some more than I should have. Eventually, I found "the one." I think it takes me time to build relationships I feel comfortable in. Maybe that's you too The rub is, time is the one thing nobody can get more of. Best of luck.
Yes. Frankly, I really think bumble should pay me for all the guys I dated ;)
[deleted]
I really appreciate the honest feedback everyone has given on this post. Some of it was hard to hear, but all of it enlightening. And I appreciate the generosity of the community in the time they took to engage in this issue.
I do want to address one last thing before giving this post a rest.
A lot of people on this post have made conjectures about my reproductive health and ability to have children at the age of 41.
Among the other comments I heard, I found these particular comments to be the most frustrating and hard to stomach.
In the last two years, I've gone to two fertility clinics. My blood samples were taken and I was given an ultrasound at one clinic, Kindbody, to determine my chances of having children. In fact, in order to get my eggs frozen, two nurses took my blood samples, examined my hormone levels and gave me an ultrasound every other day for two weeks. These licensed doctors gave me realistic and conservative assessments and recommendations from their evidence-based approach. Evidence-based recommendations and insights into my ability at this age to have a healthy child given many factors.
People on this forum have found it fit to weigh in on their own views about my reproductive health - with only my age to go on, citing studies, that I presume they would suggest, presume that they understand my body better than I do.
They have also suggested that "getting pregnant is easy."
To assume that every woman's body works the same way and on the same timeline for every woman is wrong.
There is a good reason that I reached out to licensed, experienced doctors for advice about my fertility at age 41, and not to a group of technologiests on Hacker News. Though people have found it fit to weigh in and rebuked me harshly for not accepting their viewpoints on my body's reproductive health.
That you chose to contribute about this question (my reproductive health and chances of having a healthy baby) which I did not ask, is your prerogative and I accept that.
I know it is too much to expect that someone would presume a well-educated woman would not have gotten the best advice about her fertility from knowledgeable doctors, but it is still disappointing.
Every woman's body is different. And it's my job, with the help of my doctors to understand how my body works. Not yours.
Roe V Wade was recently overturned. And many people in this community were very upset about this decision, particularly as it impacts women's autonomy over their own bodies.
Women's autonomy over their bodies starts by everyone, you and me, deciding that a woman knows her body best and it's her job to understand how it works, not yours.
If you consider yourself a feminist and a supporter of women's rights, I strongly encourage you to think twice in the future before you presume to understand a woman's body better than she does.
Thank you for listening.
Over and out:)
I do want to address one last thing before giving this post a rest.
A lot of people on this post have made conjectures about my reproductive health and ability to have children at the age of 41.
Among the other comments I heard, I found these particular comments to be the most frustrating and hard to stomach.
In the last two years, I've gone to two fertility clinics. My blood samples were taken and I was given an ultrasound at one clinic, Kindbody, to determine my chances of having children. In fact, in order to get my eggs frozen, two nurses took my blood samples, examined my hormone levels and gave me an ultrasound every other day for two weeks. These licensed doctors gave me realistic and conservative assessments and recommendations from their evidence-based approach. Evidence-based recommendations and insights into my ability at this age to have a healthy child given many factors.
People on this forum have found it fit to weigh in on their own views about my reproductive health - with only my age to go on, citing studies, that I presume they would suggest, presume that they understand my body better than I do.
They have also suggested that "getting pregnant is easy."
To assume that every woman's body works the same way and on the same timeline for every woman is wrong.
There is a good reason that I reached out to licensed, experienced doctors for advice about my fertility at age 41, and not to a group of technologiests on Hacker News. Though people have found it fit to weigh in and rebuked me harshly for not accepting their viewpoints on my body's reproductive health.
That you chose to contribute about this question (my reproductive health and chances of having a healthy baby) which I did not ask, is your prerogative and I accept that.
I know it is too much to expect that someone would presume a well-educated woman would not have gotten the best advice about her fertility from knowledgeable doctors, but it is still disappointing.
Every woman's body is different. And it's my job, with the help of my doctors to understand how my body works. Not yours.
Roe V Wade was recently overturned. And many people in this community were very upset about this decision, particularly as it impacts women's autonomy over their own bodies.
Women's autonomy over their bodies starts by everyone, you and me, deciding that a woman knows her body best and it's her job to understand how it works, not yours.
If you consider yourself a feminist and a supporter of women's rights, I strongly encourage you to think twice in the future before you presume to understand a woman's body better than she does.
Thank you for listening.
Over and out:)
I hope you’ll chat with a few friends about why you decided to write this to the few remaining stragglers.
I should do the same though I know why I’m a mess :)
Your response is heartfelt. It misconstrues the point many were making. None of us know the details of your fertility. We don’t know anything more about you than what you say. The points about your fertility were about its perception not about its reality. You seem like the sort of person who tries to avoid making quick judgments based on stereotypes. Most aren’t like that.
I should do the same though I know why I’m a mess :)
Your response is heartfelt. It misconstrues the point many were making. None of us know the details of your fertility. We don’t know anything more about you than what you say. The points about your fertility were about its perception not about its reality. You seem like the sort of person who tries to avoid making quick judgments based on stereotypes. Most aren’t like that.
I believe it touches on an important political issue.
I feel that this country is very very divided.
It's important we discuss these matters in our own community and not just yell and point fingers at the other side.
This was bothering me.
I feel men try to control women's bodies all the time.
And diagnosing my fertility, I do believe, is a subtle way of trying to control my body, even if it isn't Clarence Thomas overturning Roe V Wade.
Perhaps if I speak my peace, others will think twice before they make an assumption about an individual woman's body and assume they know better than her.
It may have misconstrued some, but others were very very blatant in their beliefs about women's fertility in general - which I would argue, clearly had nothing to do with this post.
I talked to a couple friends.
Most are women.
Many laughed at me posting this on a forum dominated by men in their twenties.
As not the best place to get advice on this issue.
I, however, have found it interesting.
I will argue with you though. If you look at the language, many people on this people volunteered their facts about my fertility without any expression that it was a perception, but just a fact.
I will add that the moderators have been incredibly vigilant in deleting and flagging some of the more misogynistic comments that have been posted here including one that said, "your baby will definitely be abnormal"
I feel and I have always felt that it's easy to point fingers at Trump for saying "grab them by the pussy" in a van, but it's harder to address misogyny in your own community and treat the people who are being misogynistic as human beings. That starts by expressing your own humanity and seeing theirs.
These people can continue to go around telling women in their forties that they are infertile and act like they know better than a doctor, or maybe the next time they meet a woman like me, they will pause and see that might be hurtful, and be more curious instead of volunteering these unsolicited "Facts" about her body.
These are random musings.
However, the most important thing about writing that answer was that I needed to stand up for myself.
And express why this bothered me so much.
I know my body better than the people in this forum. The comments made me doubt that a couple times. I needed to stand up for myself.
I felt better.
Thanks for asking.
Also, I am not a mess. I'm sorry if you feel you are. You don't seem like a mess, but you know yourself best :) Good luck to you.
Most are women.
Many laughed at me posting this on a forum dominated by men in their twenties.
As not the best place to get advice on this issue.
I, however, have found it interesting.
I will argue with you though. If you look at the language, many people on this people volunteered their facts about my fertility without any expression that it was a perception, but just a fact.
I will add that the moderators have been incredibly vigilant in deleting and flagging some of the more misogynistic comments that have been posted here including one that said, "your baby will definitely be abnormal"
I feel and I have always felt that it's easy to point fingers at Trump for saying "grab them by the pussy" in a van, but it's harder to address misogyny in your own community and treat the people who are being misogynistic as human beings. That starts by expressing your own humanity and seeing theirs.
These people can continue to go around telling women in their forties that they are infertile and act like they know better than a doctor, or maybe the next time they meet a woman like me, they will pause and see that might be hurtful, and be more curious instead of volunteering these unsolicited "Facts" about her body.
These are random musings.
However, the most important thing about writing that answer was that I needed to stand up for myself.
And express why this bothered me so much.
I know my body better than the people in this forum. The comments made me doubt that a couple times. I needed to stand up for myself.
I felt better.
Thanks for asking.
Also, I am not a mess. I'm sorry if you feel you are. You don't seem like a mess, but you know yourself best :) Good luck to you.
The good news is a lot of this is easily fixed, by learning what's important and what isn't in your pursuit of romance!
>By most cultural standards, according to my male friends, I’m smart,
This is pretty irrelevant, even if true, which is always suspect coming from guys. It's also a very common BS compliment.
> beautiful,
If guys are using the B word, it probably means you are not attractive/hot/sexy, which is what the vast majority of guys care about. So, that should probably be your first priority to rectify. To quickly go through the rest of what you seemingly find relevant to matchmaking:
"Fit"—this only matters if it makes you hot, or if you are so un-fit you are debilitated or extremely not-hot. "Kind"—this is nice; a lot of guys enjoy spending time around actually kind/selfless women, but it's also given as a very common BS compliment. "Emotionally mature"—irrelevant; you only have to be not-insane. "Doing meaningful work"—200% irrelevant; guys do not need you to do meaningful work, and it does not make you more attractive to them if you're doing it.
>Over the last two years I’ve been on over 120 dates with men I’ve met online - a few I met in person - in 3 different cities .
This right here means your problem is your expectations, or a wildly effective set of red flags scaring everybody off. Men are easy, so it's probably the former.
>I’ve deeply invested myself in therapy, support groups, meditation, dating coaching, ... and hypnotism.
You obviously need to stop all that, because it isn't working. Also, it probably makes you look nuts.
>yoga
This, is actually productive. It's healthy, and very tangential to Hot for a lot of guys.
>I’ve read and done the exercises in Calling In the One, Love Addiction, Datonomics, Make Your Move and If the Buddha dated. I’ve listened to every episode of Girls Gotta Eat.
You should definitely stop this, as well. The wisdom you're gleaning from them is obviously terrible, if you went on dates with 120 guys and got nowhere.
>I’ve gone to CrossFit and hung out at steakhouses. I’ve dated every profession you can think of from doctors to electricians and unemployed guys.
Good experience, but useless in the long run if you don't also fix your broken expectations, and reorient your objectives towards what guys are actually attracted to.
If you want to know what would actually make a guy consider a long term relationship with you, ask a basic guy's-guy what he would say if another guy asked the question; or better yet, have a guy ask the question to begin with. There will always be a filter between guys and you, telling them to answer questions like that in a false, socially acceptable manner.
TL;DR —
1) Reevaluate yourself, through the lens of what guys care about(attractiveness, youth, comfort at home, humor and wit, sensuality, mutual interests), to understand what league you probably need to be looking in.
2) Cultivate those things guys care about. Cultivate interests guys-you-like tend to have.
3) Identify guys you would like a future with — they should be at least ~2%+ of men your age — and actually, actively pursue that future with them.
>By most cultural standards, according to my male friends, I’m smart,
This is pretty irrelevant, even if true, which is always suspect coming from guys. It's also a very common BS compliment.
> beautiful,
If guys are using the B word, it probably means you are not attractive/hot/sexy, which is what the vast majority of guys care about. So, that should probably be your first priority to rectify. To quickly go through the rest of what you seemingly find relevant to matchmaking:
"Fit"—this only matters if it makes you hot, or if you are so un-fit you are debilitated or extremely not-hot. "Kind"—this is nice; a lot of guys enjoy spending time around actually kind/selfless women, but it's also given as a very common BS compliment. "Emotionally mature"—irrelevant; you only have to be not-insane. "Doing meaningful work"—200% irrelevant; guys do not need you to do meaningful work, and it does not make you more attractive to them if you're doing it.
>Over the last two years I’ve been on over 120 dates with men I’ve met online - a few I met in person - in 3 different cities .
This right here means your problem is your expectations, or a wildly effective set of red flags scaring everybody off. Men are easy, so it's probably the former.
>I’ve deeply invested myself in therapy, support groups, meditation, dating coaching, ... and hypnotism.
You obviously need to stop all that, because it isn't working. Also, it probably makes you look nuts.
>yoga
This, is actually productive. It's healthy, and very tangential to Hot for a lot of guys.
>I’ve read and done the exercises in Calling In the One, Love Addiction, Datonomics, Make Your Move and If the Buddha dated. I’ve listened to every episode of Girls Gotta Eat.
You should definitely stop this, as well. The wisdom you're gleaning from them is obviously terrible, if you went on dates with 120 guys and got nowhere.
>I’ve gone to CrossFit and hung out at steakhouses. I’ve dated every profession you can think of from doctors to electricians and unemployed guys.
Good experience, but useless in the long run if you don't also fix your broken expectations, and reorient your objectives towards what guys are actually attracted to.
If you want to know what would actually make a guy consider a long term relationship with you, ask a basic guy's-guy what he would say if another guy asked the question; or better yet, have a guy ask the question to begin with. There will always be a filter between guys and you, telling them to answer questions like that in a false, socially acceptable manner.
TL;DR —
1) Reevaluate yourself, through the lens of what guys care about(attractiveness, youth, comfort at home, humor and wit, sensuality, mutual interests), to understand what league you probably need to be looking in.
2) Cultivate those things guys care about. Cultivate interests guys-you-like tend to have.
3) Identify guys you would like a future with — they should be at least ~2%+ of men your age — and actually, actively pursue that future with them.
When you say "this is what guys care about", I think you're talking about a specific and very surface-level kind of person who wants a superficially compatible woman. A lot of this advice, though refreshingly frank, is not advice that I think is likely to get the OP what she wants if she wants a deep relationship.
There's a lot of blanket statements here. Maybe the kind of guys you spend time with don't care about meaningful work or people being kind or mature, but frankly, those are all things I and most of my friends care about more than looks. Not that I've never been superficial - far from it - but I care very much about deeper things and I couldn't have a healthy marriage without them.
Also, the statement about "beautiful" not being a real compliment is just totally false. Being "beautiful" and being "sexy" or "hot" are not always the same thing but who would lie to a friend about either?
> You obviously need to stop all that, because it isn't working. Also, it probably makes you look nuts.
I also want to challenge this sentiment. If you think someone "looks nuts" because they are doing things to try to improve themselves, that reflects more poorly on you than it does on them. There is nothing wrong whatsoever with trying therapy or alternative methodologies for self-exploration.
I do generally agree that if something isn't working, throwing more effort at it without change probably isn't a good idea. I just don't think the solutions you're advocating for will work.
There's a lot of blanket statements here. Maybe the kind of guys you spend time with don't care about meaningful work or people being kind or mature, but frankly, those are all things I and most of my friends care about more than looks. Not that I've never been superficial - far from it - but I care very much about deeper things and I couldn't have a healthy marriage without them.
Also, the statement about "beautiful" not being a real compliment is just totally false. Being "beautiful" and being "sexy" or "hot" are not always the same thing but who would lie to a friend about either?
> You obviously need to stop all that, because it isn't working. Also, it probably makes you look nuts.
I also want to challenge this sentiment. If you think someone "looks nuts" because they are doing things to try to improve themselves, that reflects more poorly on you than it does on them. There is nothing wrong whatsoever with trying therapy or alternative methodologies for self-exploration.
I do generally agree that if something isn't working, throwing more effort at it without change probably isn't a good idea. I just don't think the solutions you're advocating for will work.
>When you say "this is what guys care about", I think you're talking about a specific and very surface-level kind of person who wants a superficially compatible woma
No, it's not specific; it's very wide and applicable to a large majority of guys. Also, there is no such thing as "superficially compatible"; either you are compatible and can develop the relationship into more, or you are not compatible and are only pretending you actually like to be around eachother. OP has been obsessing over the elements that are superficial, and she has been entirely ignorant of components that are important for compatibility with men.
>There's a lot of blanket statements here.
Yes. Correct. That is how you successfully date. It is a numbers game. It is not about finding the .000000000143% of the population that is your "The One", it's about finding the 1% of the population that you could be happily ever after with, and making sure you are also attractive to them.
>Maybe the kind of guys you spend time with don't care about meaningful work or
No. Guys don't care about that, period. It is a sexed trait. Women find high value in men's work. Men do not.
>Also, the statement about "beautiful" not being a real compliment is just totally false. Being "beautiful" and being "sexy" or "hot" are not always the same thing
Obviously they are not the same thing. Dogs and manicured lawns are beautiful. They are never hot. Beautiful exists to mean "something I like looking at but not because it's sexually attractive".
>but who would lie to a friend about either?
A crapload of people. It's a classic puffery compliment, because it's 100% subjective and 0% able to be discredited.
>I also want to challenge this sentiment. If you think someone "looks nuts" because
You can challenge it all you want.
Women who think self help books and tarot cards will land them a man is a huge red flag to a vast majority of men. It is evidence that they are not "emotionally mature", as they claim to be, because these things are not difficult for an emotionally mature woman to learn and understand. Men are not that complicated.
>There is nothing wrong whatsoever with trying therapy or alternative methodologies for self-exploration.
If by "for self-exploration" you mean "for a laugh", sure. If you actually go home at the end of the day and say "why aren't I married, I read XYZ and saw ABC therapist", yes, that is a large indication you have a potentially damaging social malfunction.
No, it's not specific; it's very wide and applicable to a large majority of guys. Also, there is no such thing as "superficially compatible"; either you are compatible and can develop the relationship into more, or you are not compatible and are only pretending you actually like to be around eachother. OP has been obsessing over the elements that are superficial, and she has been entirely ignorant of components that are important for compatibility with men.
>There's a lot of blanket statements here.
Yes. Correct. That is how you successfully date. It is a numbers game. It is not about finding the .000000000143% of the population that is your "The One", it's about finding the 1% of the population that you could be happily ever after with, and making sure you are also attractive to them.
>Maybe the kind of guys you spend time with don't care about meaningful work or
No. Guys don't care about that, period. It is a sexed trait. Women find high value in men's work. Men do not.
>Also, the statement about "beautiful" not being a real compliment is just totally false. Being "beautiful" and being "sexy" or "hot" are not always the same thing
Obviously they are not the same thing. Dogs and manicured lawns are beautiful. They are never hot. Beautiful exists to mean "something I like looking at but not because it's sexually attractive".
>but who would lie to a friend about either?
A crapload of people. It's a classic puffery compliment, because it's 100% subjective and 0% able to be discredited.
>I also want to challenge this sentiment. If you think someone "looks nuts" because
You can challenge it all you want.
Women who think self help books and tarot cards will land them a man is a huge red flag to a vast majority of men. It is evidence that they are not "emotionally mature", as they claim to be, because these things are not difficult for an emotionally mature woman to learn and understand. Men are not that complicated.
>There is nothing wrong whatsoever with trying therapy or alternative methodologies for self-exploration.
If by "for self-exploration" you mean "for a laugh", sure. If you actually go home at the end of the day and say "why aren't I married, I read XYZ and saw ABC therapist", yes, that is a large indication you have a potentially damaging social malfunction.
> No. Guys don't care about that, period. It is a sexed trait. Women find high value in men's work. Men do not.
Then how come I'm a guy and I love the fact that my wife has an advanced degree and an important career?
Your thinking is in binaries and generalizations. OP is looking for something specific and cast in shades of gray. I don't think your advice will help her.
I agree that it's a numbers game, but I think that applying the logic you suggest will put OP in the wrong group, and she won't find what she says she wants.
Then how come I'm a guy and I love the fact that my wife has an advanced degree and an important career?
Your thinking is in binaries and generalizations. OP is looking for something specific and cast in shades of gray. I don't think your advice will help her.
I agree that it's a numbers game, but I think that applying the logic you suggest will put OP in the wrong group, and she won't find what she says she wants.
You seem to be entirely mixing up the two extremely distinct concepts of "what she wants" — something I have not addressed or touched on at all — with "what men she can be happy with want".
Those are different things. The advice I gave cannot stop, or help, her FIND who she wants. It can only help, or hinder, being attractive to who she wants.
The goal of said advice, is that AFTER she finds the person she likes, she will be more attractive to him, he will be more interested in a long term relationship with her, and he will call her instead of ghosting her, which is her current reality.
Your claim is "your generalized advice is bad because I claim it doesn't include me":
1) Irrelevant, unless you're claiming you represent >51% of the population of men. If my generalized advice applies to the majority, she would be better suited following it.
2) You're in public. Which is exactly where a man who doesn't care at all about his wife's career would superficially assert that he does in fact care about his wife's career.
Those are different things. The advice I gave cannot stop, or help, her FIND who she wants. It can only help, or hinder, being attractive to who she wants.
The goal of said advice, is that AFTER she finds the person she likes, she will be more attractive to him, he will be more interested in a long term relationship with her, and he will call her instead of ghosting her, which is her current reality.
Your claim is "your generalized advice is bad because I claim it doesn't include me":
1) Irrelevant, unless you're claiming you represent >51% of the population of men. If my generalized advice applies to the majority, she would be better suited following it.
2) You're in public. Which is exactly where a man who doesn't care at all about his wife's career would superficially assert that he does in fact care about his wife's career.
> If my generalized advice applies to the majority, she would be better suited following it.
Sure, if she wants to find anyone at all. If the goal is finding somebody who'll actually meet her expectations and/or make her happy, the advice isn't going to help her. There is enough variation in the human species that what OP is looking for is findable. You're not seeing it because you are so focused on making everybody fit a preconceived mold. Your generalized advice is bad because it's answering a question adjacent to but not the one that was asked, and also answering that question inaccurately.
Anyway, since we've reached the point where you suggest I must be lying or putting up a superficial front because your incorrect generalizations don't apply to me, I'm through discussing this with you. I don't think there is any point talking it out if the first thing you do upon hearing something you thought was true isn't is to assume bad faith.
Sure, if she wants to find anyone at all. If the goal is finding somebody who'll actually meet her expectations and/or make her happy, the advice isn't going to help her. There is enough variation in the human species that what OP is looking for is findable. You're not seeing it because you are so focused on making everybody fit a preconceived mold. Your generalized advice is bad because it's answering a question adjacent to but not the one that was asked, and also answering that question inaccurately.
Anyway, since we've reached the point where you suggest I must be lying or putting up a superficial front because your incorrect generalizations don't apply to me, I'm through discussing this with you. I don't think there is any point talking it out if the first thing you do upon hearing something you thought was true isn't is to assume bad faith.
Maybe the people who run the sacrament can help. A church or faith. I don't know anything about you really, so here's some knowledge.
Gregory Pine, a Dominican friar does a few videos on the nature of marriage and it's hurdles. They are theological and philosophical.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itLLHyVW6ek https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds34wmpxt9I&t=768s
Some random advice added on to complement his videos, if you're crabby like a lobster in relationships, try not to drag people down, bite down on their beliefs too much, or need to be needed. Strength in yourself to overcome that stuff helps, if it's your vice.
Try to not be an immovable foundation for the marriage, like a rock. Give that foundation up to a divine connection to God, or something else other than your own behaviour.
Move away from fighting the endless fight. If you get burnt, let it go, becoming a virginal undefeated combatant who can't lose, isn't helpful.
Look for a guy who is the image of wisdom and truth to your eye/mind. If he sees you (you might not be able to know this) as the image of love or affection for the good, it's going well. Be a little bit reckless with the timing of pregnancy.
Good luck!
Gregory Pine, a Dominican friar does a few videos on the nature of marriage and it's hurdles. They are theological and philosophical.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itLLHyVW6ek https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds34wmpxt9I&t=768s
Some random advice added on to complement his videos, if you're crabby like a lobster in relationships, try not to drag people down, bite down on their beliefs too much, or need to be needed. Strength in yourself to overcome that stuff helps, if it's your vice.
Try to not be an immovable foundation for the marriage, like a rock. Give that foundation up to a divine connection to God, or something else other than your own behaviour.
Move away from fighting the endless fight. If you get burnt, let it go, becoming a virginal undefeated combatant who can't lose, isn't helpful.
Look for a guy who is the image of wisdom and truth to your eye/mind. If he sees you (you might not be able to know this) as the image of love or affection for the good, it's going well. Be a little bit reckless with the timing of pregnancy.
Good luck!
This is lovely “look for a guy who is the image of wisdom and truth to your eye/mind. If he sees you (you might not be able to know this) as the image of love or affection for the good, it's going well.”
I look forward to watching these
I hope this isn't too blunt but worth confronting if it's part of the trouble. Have you been very promiscuous during those previous 3 decades? For some men, that makes you a great choice for a girlfriend but a no for a wife. There's cultural shaming of men for having this preference so you might not hear it openly expressed a lot but it does exist and influence their decisions.
In case it doesn't work out like you hope, marriage can be a disaster for a lot of people, especially if you get into it out of desperation and tolerate minor ongoing disrespect or abuse, hoping it'll go away, then you can't get out because being single and even older seems worse than the little bit of human contact your spouse provides, and concern for your kids of course.
In case it doesn't work out like you hope, marriage can be a disaster for a lot of people, especially if you get into it out of desperation and tolerate minor ongoing disrespect or abuse, hoping it'll go away, then you can't get out because being single and even older seems worse than the little bit of human contact your spouse provides, and concern for your kids of course.
No I’ve been very selective, not promiscuous and usually go on coffee dates for the first date
Coffee can be an artificial/uncomfortable setting. My favorite first dates (depending on how wet met) were bowling, board games with other friends, or the shooting range.
Especially the last one; a little bit of discomfort is a fantastic icebreaker.
Especially the last one; a little bit of discomfort is a fantastic icebreaker.
Go back study (in area ultra domninated by men). Join church. Change your job. Move to another country. The idea here is you need to change your social circle. The one you are in definitely not conducive to you in the romance area. You likely have very high expectation. You do need to change it to lower your expectation, but doing it on your own based on your current situation will be next to impossible. Do the changes I suggest above, the rest will take care itself.
Do let me know if you find a decent place in Austin to meet new folk, I'm also trying to do similar and just moved also (from Chicago/UK)
Nice to meet you! Feel free to reach out if you want to be friends. manisha[at]manisharose[dot]com
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So part of it is, there's horror stories because every time a man gets gutted in court--which is all the time--he spills his guts again to younger men. Dude I want to get married but I have no idea how I'll sign a marriage contract, which means I have no idea how the ceremony will go, it's too many issues, fuck.
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Your time for having children has run out to be very clear. There’s a very high chance you’re going to subject any child born at 41 to a severe disability and myriad of other lesser problems including reduced IQ.
You need to figure out what is absolutely important to you and what you can only get in a partner vs what you could get elsewhere. Sex, obviously should not be something you get elsewhere. The more things you say your partner needs to have, the smaller the eligible population and as a result the smaller the odds of finding a partner. Go where you can find people who share the same qualifications you require - for many that’s a church/temple/synagogue/mosque.
For others it’s from a similar ethnic community.
Lower your standards.
And this is not discouragement. The reality just is that what kills relationships for almost everyone is that their own imagined standards are much higher than what reality has made available to them. You could be Gal Gadot and still be single if you only wanted and would not accept anything less than Ryan Reynolds. Yet everyday, people who you would view as completely undateable get together get married and start families, because they lowered their standards.
And this is not discouragement. The reality just is that what kills relationships for almost everyone is that their own imagined standards are much higher than what reality has made available to them. You could be Gal Gadot and still be single if you only wanted and would not accept anything less than Ryan Reynolds. Yet everyday, people who you would view as completely undateable get together get married and start families, because they lowered their standards.
"I’ve dated every profession you can think of from doctors to electricians and unemployed guys."
That's a lot of guys. Can you shed some light on why all those failed?
"My time for having children is running out."
Realistically, time was running out in your early 30s (where female fertility starts to nose dive). After 40 and you are seriously rolling the dice (assuming the ovum even gets fertilized, there Downs, aneuploidy, etc.)
That's a lot of guys. Can you shed some light on why all those failed?
"My time for having children is running out."
Realistically, time was running out in your early 30s (where female fertility starts to nose dive). After 40 and you are seriously rolling the dice (assuming the ovum even gets fertilized, there Downs, aneuploidy, etc.)
After reading all the commentary I can’t help but feel HN got baited to shower a narcissist with compliments. I wish more people would just pile the OP’s answers and read before responding to any individual thread.
Well done lads, well done.
Well done lads, well done.
Funny you should say that.
Both men and women offered good advice and words of encouragement, but somehow I can only focus on the negative.
This is the first time I’ve been called a narcissist, but I’ll certainly ask my therapist and friends if that’s something I need to work on.
Both men and women offered good advice and words of encouragement, but somehow I can only focus on the negative.
This is the first time I’ve been called a narcissist, but I’ll certainly ask my therapist and friends if that’s something I need to work on.
Is it just me, or does this post look like a scam to find a rich guy and con him for all his money? :)
dontbenebby(1)
joenotreal(1)
osipov(1)
Enjoy.
> My time for having children is running out.
Well since you worry about that, you can freeze and storage gametes. I don't know how hard it is in the USA.
About the main subject, I can share a community on reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/ (note that some people find the sub controversial)
Well since you worry about that, you can freeze and storage gametes. I don't know how hard it is in the USA.
About the main subject, I can share a community on reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/ (note that some people find the sub controversial)
This sub looks like an echo-chamber for bitter spinsters. Not sure how anyone can recommend it in good faith
The OP appears like someone who is a mod in that community already from her replies. They are beyond the pale.
By most cultural standards, according to my male friends, I’m smart, beautiful, fit, kind, emotionally mature and doing meaningful work in the world. Not too needy and not a workaholic.
Over the last two years I’ve been on over 120 dates with men I’ve met online - a few I met in person - in 3 different cities .
I’ve deeply invested myself in therapy, support groups, meditation, dating coaching, yoga and hypnotism. I’ve tried bumble, tinder , Eharmony, hinge, coffee meets bagel, Thursday, Match, speed dating as well as a few other random apps.
I’ve asked my friends to set me up . I tried to crowdsource a husband on Facebook.
I’ve read and done the exercises in Calling In the One, Love Addiction, Datonomics, Make Your Move and If the Buddha dated. I’ve listened to every episode of Girls Gotta Eat.
I’ve gone to CrossFit and hung out at steakhouses. I’ve dated every profession you can think of from doctors to electricians and unemployed guys.
I even moved to Austin because I read that’s where there was the highest ratio of educated men to women, thereby improving my odds of meeting a marriageable man.
My time for having children is running out.
This has always been my dream and I’m willing to try almost anything. I was raised by a single mom and I really want to have kids with a man I love, not do it on my own.
So, are there any love hacks I could try?
Please encouragement only, no discouragement. I’m discouraged enough already.