Why does Apple hate the scrollbar?(ashlan.com)
ashlan.com
Why does Apple hate the scrollbar?
https://ashlan.com/blog/why-does-apple-hate-the-scrollbar/
58 comments
Apple, Android, Windows. Every OS has jumped into this bandwagon. Usability keeps deteriorating at the expense of aesthetics.
I resent designers for messing up user experience, pushing the industry away from good solutions that were discovered and implemented decades ago.
I resent designers for messing up user experience, pushing the industry away from good solutions that were discovered and implemented decades ago.
For me personally, a persistent scrollbar is as relevant to usability as the {x,y} coordinates that old Unix windowing systems like MWM or CDE used to draw whenever you moved or resized a window.
There were many, MANY extremely intelligent and highly technical people who got into very long flame wars when the feature of displaying the X and Y coordinates of the center of a window and the corners whenever it was moved, was removed.
And now it seems silly.
What use case is there? Knowing all of the time how much of a webpage is left below the bottom of a window? That is not relevant information to most people and becomes immediately available as soon as you move your fingers 1mm to scroll through the contents of a window.
Quickly jumping position in a long window? Normal users don't care and power users use HOME, END, PGUP, PGDOWN or other keyboard shortcuts because it is very highly unlikely that you know the exact percentage of a window you need to scroll through and the time taken removing your hands from the keyboard exceeds the time saved by knowing that direct percentage anyways.
I have a Model M and fancy-pants trackball but the vast, overwhelming majority of users are interacting with their computers using a touchpad or their fingers. To the point that mouse users should be deprioritized to enhance the experience of the majority.
Removing persistent scrollbars puts the needs of the many ahead of the few.... or the one.
There were many, MANY extremely intelligent and highly technical people who got into very long flame wars when the feature of displaying the X and Y coordinates of the center of a window and the corners whenever it was moved, was removed.
And now it seems silly.
What use case is there? Knowing all of the time how much of a webpage is left below the bottom of a window? That is not relevant information to most people and becomes immediately available as soon as you move your fingers 1mm to scroll through the contents of a window.
Quickly jumping position in a long window? Normal users don't care and power users use HOME, END, PGUP, PGDOWN or other keyboard shortcuts because it is very highly unlikely that you know the exact percentage of a window you need to scroll through and the time taken removing your hands from the keyboard exceeds the time saved by knowing that direct percentage anyways.
I have a Model M and fancy-pants trackball but the vast, overwhelming majority of users are interacting with their computers using a touchpad or their fingers. To the point that mouse users should be deprioritized to enhance the experience of the majority.
Removing persistent scrollbars puts the needs of the many ahead of the few.... or the one.
> What use case is there?
If I don't see a scrollbar I don't scroll down. A scrollbar indicates that there is content below the fold.
If I don't see a scrollbar I don't scroll down. A scrollbar indicates that there is content below the fold.
I see this framed as a touch vs. mouse debate often, and it's understandable since non-persistent scrollbars originated on smartphones, but I think even touch interfaces would benefit from persistent scrollbars.
At my work, we recently had a bug filed where a lot of users were reporting that one of the pages didn't have all the controls it ought to. It turned out that those users needed to scroll down to get to those controls, but they didn't realize they could scroll. At the common viewport size they were using, the page looked complete. It didn't look like there was anything to scroll.
If there was a persistent scrollbar, the user could have easily seen that there was more content to scroll to.
Now, you could say that the design of that page was bad if users had to scroll to important controls, and you might have a good case. In this case, the controls weren't the most important part of the page, and modern design favors decreasing density. There are always going to be cases where users aren't going to realize they can scroll.
Windows phone tried to solve this is in the most disorienting way possible by making sure things were always getting cut off on the sides that you could scroll, but other than that blip in history, there's been no standard replacement for the scrollbar for informing users they can scroll.
At my work, we recently had a bug filed where a lot of users were reporting that one of the pages didn't have all the controls it ought to. It turned out that those users needed to scroll down to get to those controls, but they didn't realize they could scroll. At the common viewport size they were using, the page looked complete. It didn't look like there was anything to scroll.
If there was a persistent scrollbar, the user could have easily seen that there was more content to scroll to.
Now, you could say that the design of that page was bad if users had to scroll to important controls, and you might have a good case. In this case, the controls weren't the most important part of the page, and modern design favors decreasing density. There are always going to be cases where users aren't going to realize they can scroll.
Windows phone tried to solve this is in the most disorienting way possible by making sure things were always getting cut off on the sides that you could scroll, but other than that blip in history, there's been no standard replacement for the scrollbar for informing users they can scroll.
" What use case is there?"
I need to scroll the damn thing. Not with the mouse scroll ( too rough) not with the keyboard ( i don't want to lose keyboard focus from the current element). I just need to scroll. I don't have time to wait until the scrollbar appears, i don't want to click for it to appear. I just want it there.
I need to scroll the damn thing. Not with the mouse scroll ( too rough) not with the keyboard ( i don't want to lose keyboard focus from the current element). I just need to scroll. I don't have time to wait until the scrollbar appears, i don't want to click for it to appear. I just want it there.
All you have to do is hover the area where it lives and it appears. You’d have to hover the area anyway to touch it. It’s entirely inconsequential to usability and obviously looks significantly better
Sometimes the scroll bar that appears when hovering is so thin one must move back and forth to zero in on it while it disappears until you’ve finally found the spot. I would much prefer it just stay visible rather than play hide and seek.
I think Apple was the first to jump on this bandwagon. The others are following along.
Related tangent: You can tell when a website has been built and tested exclusively on Macs by the messed up layout due to the reserved scrollbar space on other OSs.
Even big, 'reputable' companies do this.
Even big, 'reputable' companies do this.
This makes a lot of sense. Like with brutalism the first designers created beautiful and useful art. But as the movement expanded, limited time and budget, bad copies, and misunderstanding of the movement created authentic monstrosities.
In some cases removing the bar made sense. Now it's just fancy copy/paste where it does not apply and the bar would have been useful.
In some cases removing the bar made sense. Now it's just fancy copy/paste where it does not apply and the bar would have been useful.
The library for University of Toronto is a pretty awesome example of brutalism done right. It looks different from every side, and it is massive.
But like you've alluded to, for every good example of brutalism, there are terrible ones.
But like you've alluded to, for every good example of brutalism, there are terrible ones.
> The scroll bar has been around since the start of computers ...
Actually not; I first saw a scrollbar on an Alto in the late 70s. Computing had been around for three decades at that point.
Not that I like the scrollbar. The Apple ones appeal to me because 1 - they are only there when I want one (which is almost never) and 2 - even then they are quite small.
Even if you like the scrollbar, this mechanism seems like it would be good when you can scroll different parts of the display, parts that may not even be delineated by a box.
Actually not; I first saw a scrollbar on an Alto in the late 70s. Computing had been around for three decades at that point.
Not that I like the scrollbar. The Apple ones appeal to me because 1 - they are only there when I want one (which is almost never) and 2 - even then they are quite small.
Even if you like the scrollbar, this mechanism seems like it would be good when you can scroll different parts of the display, parts that may not even be delineated by a box.
It's like Apple goes out of their way to violate the principle of least astonishment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishmen...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishmen...
The same is true on Android though, at least in your web browser? And when you do start scrolling what does appear is so subtle as to be effectively not there, and can't be used for scrolling anyway (it's just a visual indicator of scroll position).
Agreed for full size desktop/ non-touchscreen devices there's no good reason to hide it, and worse I've had occasions where I literally couldn't find functionality because I had no idea a menu was scrollable.
Agreed for full size desktop/ non-touchscreen devices there's no good reason to hide it, and worse I've had occasions where I literally couldn't find functionality because I had no idea a menu was scrollable.
I agree, at least with the phone, there's limited screen. There's NO reason why the scrollbar should be invisible for the desktop though.
You can hide it for the same reason people choose to hide their bookmark bar, or reading list, or dock. They simply don't want it to take up room on the screen so they can focus on the website
> so they can focus on the website
You mean those wide-load, content dense websites like this? https://imgur.com/a/6pQAXWP
BTW the only site I know what supports wide-load toggle is https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/UNIX
And F11 still works.
You mean those wide-load, content dense websites like this? https://imgur.com/a/6pQAXWP
BTW the only site I know what supports wide-load toggle is https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/UNIX
And F11 still works.
It‘s okay to make it hidable as a user preference setting, but the default should be for the scrollbar to be visible (and wide enough to not be a difficult touch/mouse target), for affordance and discoverability reasons.
What if Apple took your argument to the extreme and remove the URL bar, back button and the tabs bar so you can focus on the website? Would you be OK with that?
A) they haven’t removed the scroll bar, they simply hide it when you’re not scrolling.
B) Despite your cheery tone that IS an option you can turn on when you fullscreen safari and Chrome, and I do in fact use it. It’s great. The whole screen is just the web page you’re on.
B) Despite your cheery tone that IS an option you can turn on when you fullscreen safari and Chrome, and I do in fact use it. It’s great. The whole screen is just the web page you’re on.
It looks a lot cleaner without. I prefer it the way it is
This is the same way Apple designs cables. Every engineer ever has known that you need add strain relief for cables, but Apple removes them because "it doesn't look clean". There's also probably a financial incentive.
That's probably also why Apple's USB adapters all look the same, even if they aren't. You can only tell by looking at the actual connector.
The scroll-bar reminds Apple of when their primary product was desktop computers. They're now an AR / Autonomous Driving / Cloud / Streaming company. Anytime anyone intimates they once made computing hardware, it lowers their multiple.
The article makes it sound like the scrollbar has been removed and is only accessible if the setting is turned on.
Seems silly. All you have to do is start scrolling and you immediately see the scrollbar.
Seems silly. All you have to do is start scrolling and you immediately see the scrollbar.
"until you start moving down a webpage" is literally in the second sentence of the article.
Yes, but the talk about all of the benefits makes it sound like you don't get those benefits unless you enable it all the time.
E.g. "The first and basic thing is it allows you to grab the scroll bar and move down the page quickly. You don't have to double finger scroll over and over to get to the bottom of a very long page. You can simply drag and pull it to your desired location."
You know what? if you move your mouse all the way to the right to scroll with the bar you can also scroll for a fraction of a second to reveal it so you can grab it.
E.g. "The first and basic thing is it allows you to grab the scroll bar and move down the page quickly. You don't have to double finger scroll over and over to get to the bottom of a very long page. You can simply drag and pull it to your desired location."
You know what? if you move your mouse all the way to the right to scroll with the bar you can also scroll for a fraction of a second to reveal it so you can grab it.
Most non tech users never change the defaults on their phones/laptops. This means for those users, the scrollbar is effectively removed (other than scrolling).
I don't buy it. As soon as they start scrolling it "magically" appears again and thus it's not removed.
Not having a persistently visible scrollbar means there's often no visual signal that something can be scrolled, or what the boundaries of the scrollable view are.
It's especially bad with flat UI design, to the point of being a dark pattern: in the Windows 10 and 11 setup process, there's a screen for opting out of various privacy invasions and other anti-features. Several of the options are completely invisible and undiscoverable until you start turning off the ones that are on screen, changing how tall those options are and revealing that the list is scrollable. Abuse like that is reason enough to always mistrust and hate auto-hiding scrollbars.
It's especially bad with flat UI design, to the point of being a dark pattern: in the Windows 10 and 11 setup process, there's a screen for opting out of various privacy invasions and other anti-features. Several of the options are completely invisible and undiscoverable until you start turning off the ones that are on screen, changing how tall those options are and revealing that the list is scrollable. Abuse like that is reason enough to always mistrust and hate auto-hiding scrollbars.
Again, disagree. This has it backwards. Microsoft isn't making it hard for you to opt-out because of the auto-hiding scrollbar. They're just taking advantage of it to make it harder in a new way. Before the scroll bar it was nesting it deep within menus.
> Before the scroll bar it was nesting it deep within menus.
I'm not sure which version of Windows you think predated scroll bars, but I'm pretty sure it didn't have any telemetry reporting back to Microsoft over the internet.
I'm not sure which version of Windows you think predated scroll bars, but I'm pretty sure it didn't have any telemetry reporting back to Microsoft over the internet.
What I meant was auto-hiding scrollbars.
Do you think having visible scroll-bars does anything if Microsoft just re-enables those settings when you update windows?
Do you think having visible scroll-bars does anything if Microsoft just re-enables those settings when you update windows?
> if Microsoft just re-enables those settings when you update windows?
That's another matter entirely. Microsoft's current strategy is to give at least some appearance of getting informed consent for those anti-features. Silently re-enabling them during an update without asking the user would be much more likely to get them in trouble.
That's another matter entirely. Microsoft's current strategy is to give at least some appearance of getting informed consent for those anti-features. Silently re-enabling them during an update without asking the user would be much more likely to get them in trouble.
It is not another thing. You argue that auto-hiding scroll bars are used by Microsoft to create dark patterns for hiding settings from you. My point is that the problem is Microsoft and not an auto-hiding scroll bar.
As for not knowing about it being scrollable, apple explicitly addresses it in their design guidelines: https://developers.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelin...
“Make it apparent when content is scrollable. Because scroll bars aren’t always visible, it can be helpful to make it obvious when content extends beyond the view. For example, displaying partial content at the edge of a view indicates that there’s more content in that direction. Although most people immediately try scrolling a view to discover if additional content is available, it’s considerate to draw their attention to it.”
As for not knowing about it being scrollable, apple explicitly addresses it in their design guidelines: https://developers.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelin...
“Make it apparent when content is scrollable. Because scroll bars aren’t always visible, it can be helpful to make it obvious when content extends beyond the view. For example, displaying partial content at the edge of a view indicates that there’s more content in that direction. Although most people immediately try scrolling a view to discover if additional content is available, it’s considerate to draw their attention to it.”
Not that simple. Just ran into it today where I was trying to scroll down a page and couldn't. Why? Because there wasn't anything more further down. In the past the scroll bar would of told me there wasn't anything more, but now I actively have to try (and fail) scrolling to 'discover' the fact that there isn't anything there.
Then if the second you lost by trying and failing to scroll is important leave it on.
But if isn't clear that you have reached the bottom of a website, then that's a problem with the page.
But if isn't clear that you have reached the bottom of a website, then that's a problem with the page.
But the point is that you don't know if there's more content without trying to scroll.
That's why so many websites have pointless scroll arrows inviting you to scroll.
That's why so many websites have pointless scroll arrows inviting you to scroll.
Having an always on scrollbar may save you from trying to have to scroll.
But not knowing if you can scroll is caused by poor website design and not by a hidden scrollbar
But not knowing if you can scroll is caused by poor website design and not by a hidden scrollbar
You don't need to design your way out of a problem with a custom solution every time if you just add the scroll bar.
Being fooled into believing there's no more content is often incidental: some gap in the content aligns perfectly with the bottom of the window. (This is especially the case with designer websites which use a lot of blank spaces.) You shouldn't need a custom solution.
Being fooled into believing there's no more content is often incidental: some gap in the content aligns perfectly with the bottom of the window. (This is especially the case with designer websites which use a lot of blank spaces.) You shouldn't need a custom solution.
I wouldn’t consider having the website be designed to let you know that there’s more content a “custom solution”.
As for the rest of your comment. This really is a matter of preference. You’ve built a habit to look at the scroll bar. I’ve built a habit to try scrolling and see what happens.
As for the rest of your comment. This really is a matter of preference. You’ve built a habit to look at the scroll bar. I’ve built a habit to try scrolling and see what happens.
I remember a running something in the Terminal around 10.5 that put up and down scroll buttons at the the top and bottom of the scroll bar. They were useful for the time.
Thanks to scroll wheels and trackpads I don't need to awkwardly click and drag a scrollbar, and 99% of the time where I am in the scroll is irrelevant to me, so I very much prefer the disappearing scrollbar and the fact that the only people I see who turn it back on are a small percentage of developers it is fairly clear most users don't really miss it either.
That being said I would love if it was easier to add an overflow indicator using just CSS for situations where it is less apparent that a sub-element of a page can scroll.
That being said I would love if it was easier to add an overflow indicator using just CSS for situations where it is less apparent that a sub-element of a page can scroll.
I'm fine with the scroll bar disappearing as a control.
But I badly want it as an indicator. More than once, using macOS or mobile OSes I could not realize that an area contains much more items than meets the eye, because nothing suggested that I should scroll.
This, of course, is due to the general tendency of throwing UI discoverability under the bus of "clean looks".
But I badly want it as an indicator. More than once, using macOS or mobile OSes I could not realize that an area contains much more items than meets the eye, because nothing suggested that I should scroll.
This, of course, is due to the general tendency of throwing UI discoverability under the bus of "clean looks".
If you are using a trackpad or a touch screen, they are not very useful.
They serve to indicate the scroll position and the relative size of the scrolled view (and the fact that there is a scrollable view in the first place), and to quickly scroll a longer range.
They still exist (they appear when scrolling), but for regular use with a trackpad you don’t need to move your pointer into the scrollbar. Having them always visible is unnecessary and gets crowded when you have more than one scrollable region.
It is annoying to to have to perform a UI action to see the scrollbar (or to see if there is a scrollbar) instead of it just being there. Also, many people work with a regular keyboard with mouse, and may be operating mostly with the keyboard, and now have to reach for the mouse just to see the scrollbar. The scrollbar is an important UI element even if you just use PgUp/PgDn etc. to scroll by keyboard.
You might as well argue that it is not necessary to have the status bar always visible, or any other type of indicator.
I also don’t buy the “crowded” argument, because scrollbars were perfectly fine when we only had 14" monitors with 1024x768 resolution.
You might as well argue that it is not necessary to have the status bar always visible, or any other type of indicator.
I also don’t buy the “crowded” argument, because scrollbars were perfectly fine when we only had 14" monitors with 1024x768 resolution.
There are 3 settings on macs: Always show scrollbars, only show when scrolling, and show scrollbars if a mouse is connected. Set it to the one you like. I can go without scrollbars and you can have scrollbars displayed.
I turn it back on too.
This seems like a “designer run amok” kind of thing. Someone with power decided it was “clutter” and you don’t really need it except when scrolling so they removed it despite all the very real downsides.
I keep hoping they’ll go back (like natural scrolling) but I realize that’s unlikely.
This seems like a “designer run amok” kind of thing. Someone with power decided it was “clutter” and you don’t really need it except when scrolling so they removed it despite all the very real downsides.
I keep hoping they’ll go back (like natural scrolling) but I realize that’s unlikely.
Also, it's not only Apple that seems to hate the scrollbar nowadays. I'm seeing lots of apps (especially electron apps) that don't show a scrollbar until you mouse over it, and what's worse is that there are often multiple scrollbars for different screen areas/frames, but it's not entirely obvious which is which, and you have to do mouse-overs for them to even appear.