Ask HN: Has programming become less desirable to you as a job, more as a hobby?
6 comments
Absolutely. These days this tends to happen to me most often if I don't keep the programming limited in scope. For example if it's a work project and I go, "hey I'll do that" and dive in. Yeah no.
To me, this model absolutely applies: Writing code is little-picture, detail work. So is typing, so is debugging, so is deployment. So you can bury yourself in detail work as a coder.
And, I'm not a little-picture person. If I'm doing detail work, it's generally got to be really interesting to me, or otherwise highly relevant to my personal values, or I'm going to burn out pretty fast.
In that way, it's a very good fit as a hobby. Nothing super-important, but also really fun? Sure, I'll dive into those details for a while, and then get back to work.
In my work-coding then, the risk is that I overkill on detail that's not interesting to me. So I keep things as high-level and reasonably scope-defined as possible in order to avoid the downsides of this.
For example, I use big-picture plan to build the rationale for the work, then I schedule the work to happen in comfortable phases that jive with my overall schedule (avoiding a detail-crunch), I framework my entire coding practice from beginning to end, I reuse code when applicable, and so on. I always watch for ways to make it easier next time.
But going beyond that: I have something fun or interesting planned for afterward, I have interesting things going on during (music, movies I like, snacks I like, etc.) and I package my work for later in case I need to do the same thing again in some way.
I had to discover this pretty early on in my career but it's been helpful since that time.
As a subjective hobby, I find that programming is metaphorically the same as scheduling for objectivity (get with the program, theatre programs, object-oriented programming, and so on).
So at those times, programming as an interest that "strikes me in the moment" helps me to remember to carefully, patiently stay on track and accountable on objective passion projects that I suck at, and that I want to do anyway.
Bravo on the career reflection btw. If you're not enjoying your career, changes have just got to be made.
To me, this model absolutely applies: Writing code is little-picture, detail work. So is typing, so is debugging, so is deployment. So you can bury yourself in detail work as a coder.
And, I'm not a little-picture person. If I'm doing detail work, it's generally got to be really interesting to me, or otherwise highly relevant to my personal values, or I'm going to burn out pretty fast.
In that way, it's a very good fit as a hobby. Nothing super-important, but also really fun? Sure, I'll dive into those details for a while, and then get back to work.
In my work-coding then, the risk is that I overkill on detail that's not interesting to me. So I keep things as high-level and reasonably scope-defined as possible in order to avoid the downsides of this.
For example, I use big-picture plan to build the rationale for the work, then I schedule the work to happen in comfortable phases that jive with my overall schedule (avoiding a detail-crunch), I framework my entire coding practice from beginning to end, I reuse code when applicable, and so on. I always watch for ways to make it easier next time.
But going beyond that: I have something fun or interesting planned for afterward, I have interesting things going on during (music, movies I like, snacks I like, etc.) and I package my work for later in case I need to do the same thing again in some way.
I had to discover this pretty early on in my career but it's been helpful since that time.
As a subjective hobby, I find that programming is metaphorically the same as scheduling for objectivity (get with the program, theatre programs, object-oriented programming, and so on).
So at those times, programming as an interest that "strikes me in the moment" helps me to remember to carefully, patiently stay on track and accountable on objective passion projects that I suck at, and that I want to do anyway.
Bravo on the career reflection btw. If you're not enjoying your career, changes have just got to be made.
That's an interesting perspective to me, since I'm the complete opposite with detail work. I feel like I am very much a little-picture person.
Most of my career I tend to strike out billable line items, close tickets, and became very comfortable with it. I found it easier to get in the groove of things with feature work coming in and chugging through it at a predictable pace.
It's true that you bury yourself in the details that way, but I didn't mind it.
However, this little-picture focus turned out to be bad for me in the long run.
I avoided small talk with co-workers, there was little to no casual socializing, after work I just want to shut my brain off and turn on Netflix or a video game when I'm back home.
Because of my focus of tallying down complete items being more important, I saw writing code as the only important thing there is to my job and career. I stopped noticing my coworker's needs around me, the company's greater needs, and the industry trends around me.
It included not caring about network building, company meets or other "extracurriculars" that will get you noticed and have a peer put in a good word for you.
I didn't want to manage big things, whether it's my network or my skillset. I just wanted to live in the moment and meet my boss's demands each day without worrying.
Consequently I would have to change focus now that I know how important the big picture is and not to ignore it. If I had to choose an alternative I might go for a ECE career or perhaps aerospace. Both will however require a full degree- you can't easily self-teach your way into those types of careers.
Most of my career I tend to strike out billable line items, close tickets, and became very comfortable with it. I found it easier to get in the groove of things with feature work coming in and chugging through it at a predictable pace.
It's true that you bury yourself in the details that way, but I didn't mind it.
However, this little-picture focus turned out to be bad for me in the long run.
I avoided small talk with co-workers, there was little to no casual socializing, after work I just want to shut my brain off and turn on Netflix or a video game when I'm back home.
Because of my focus of tallying down complete items being more important, I saw writing code as the only important thing there is to my job and career. I stopped noticing my coworker's needs around me, the company's greater needs, and the industry trends around me.
It included not caring about network building, company meets or other "extracurriculars" that will get you noticed and have a peer put in a good word for you.
I didn't want to manage big things, whether it's my network or my skillset. I just wanted to live in the moment and meet my boss's demands each day without worrying.
Consequently I would have to change focus now that I know how important the big picture is and not to ignore it. If I had to choose an alternative I might go for a ECE career or perhaps aerospace. Both will however require a full degree- you can't easily self-teach your way into those types of careers.
I made the decision to keep programming strictly as a hobby and go into a related field.
Some backstory - I started programming at a young age in the early 90s, I was building basic sites by reading from books before I even had internet access. That continued throughout my teenage years, coding almost daily on a range of software and languages.
When I eventually got to the decision on what to do for university/college I decided to go the business route and not CS. From a programming perspective I was confident (arrogant) my local educational institute couldn’t teach me much (I was already helping others on their coursework) but mainly I didn’t want the enjoyment I got from programming to be sapped away in a day to day job.
For me it was the right decision and instead I landed in product. I get to work with engineers and I’ll happily have technical conversations where necessary but for me I still get to enjoy programming as a hobby and I don’t think of it as work.
Some backstory - I started programming at a young age in the early 90s, I was building basic sites by reading from books before I even had internet access. That continued throughout my teenage years, coding almost daily on a range of software and languages.
When I eventually got to the decision on what to do for university/college I decided to go the business route and not CS. From a programming perspective I was confident (arrogant) my local educational institute couldn’t teach me much (I was already helping others on their coursework) but mainly I didn’t want the enjoyment I got from programming to be sapped away in a day to day job.
For me it was the right decision and instead I landed in product. I get to work with engineers and I’ll happily have technical conversations where necessary but for me I still get to enjoy programming as a hobby and I don’t think of it as work.
I enjoy programming, I've always enjoyed programming, and I suspect that's why I've explicitly rejected programming jobs.
I'm a sysadmin, and I want to keep it that way. Sure I've written tools and utilities to help my life, and my colleagues, but I'm explicitly not a coder.
I've seen too many people spoil their interests, or hobbies, by doing it for money and I decided a long time ago that I wouldn't make that mistake.
(People sometimes throw money at me for photography, but I'm happy if that happens once/twice a year. I've no desire to become a professional photographer for the same reason that I don't want to be a full-time coder.)
I'm a sysadmin, and I want to keep it that way. Sure I've written tools and utilities to help my life, and my colleagues, but I'm explicitly not a coder.
I've seen too many people spoil their interests, or hobbies, by doing it for money and I decided a long time ago that I wouldn't make that mistake.
(People sometimes throw money at me for photography, but I'm happy if that happens once/twice a year. I've no desire to become a professional photographer for the same reason that I don't want to be a full-time coder.)
Try freelancing or consulting?
When you do your passion as an actual 'job' it'll kill you. But do it on your own terms and you can have your cake and eat it too.
When you do your passion as an actual 'job' it'll kill you. But do it on your own terms and you can have your cake and eat it too.
I've freelanced and contracted for about 10 years before the 2.5 years time of no work. When I had work, it didn't do so well for me. Barely made good income, and it's so much freedom, to a fault. No safety nets. You need to be especially proactive to make it work for you, more than a regular job.
I did the bare minimum. I was picking off contract gigs for small business, and for below body shop prices. The most I ever made in one year was $50k. In my worst years I made under $10k.
It also turned me into an "expert beginner" because I worked in isolation, I was still living in the now, and my clients have been small with little to no exposure to a strong technical culture.
You need a lot of hustling and "working your network" to rise above that. At this point, it's killed my drive and want to go back to the relative safety of FT work.
I did the bare minimum. I was picking off contract gigs for small business, and for below body shop prices. The most I ever made in one year was $50k. In my worst years I made under $10k.
It also turned me into an "expert beginner" because I worked in isolation, I was still living in the now, and my clients have been small with little to no exposure to a strong technical culture.
You need a lot of hustling and "working your network" to rise above that. At this point, it's killed my drive and want to go back to the relative safety of FT work.
I've been unemployed for the past 2.5 years, and with my job seeking process I'm just going through the motions. Even though I applied to nearly a thousand jobs in the past year, and gotten through interviewing at ~20 companies, I have no offers. I tend to just wing it with interviews. I don't like to rehearse, so I seldom rehearse. This all sounds like not enough interest and motivation to build my career on my part.
I actually still don't mind much programming on the job, but I don't like to treat the interview and job seeking stuff as work. Building a network and maintaining professional relationships feels draining, too. And I'd like follow the mantra of feeling like never working a day in your life if you enjoy your work enough.
On the other hand, I still find it enjoyable to write programs for personal interest. I have ongoing projects that I started this year. They probably have no impact on my ability to interview, given that I still have no offers.
But I feel like I'm over the idea putting on a front to be a developer just to earn an income. That works for a lot of people, but not me.
Financially, the only difference between recent graduate me and current me is I replaced my college debt with another kind of debt. My net worth hasn't really changed much.
I want to enjoy myself, and turning programming into a career felt like a big waste of time because my life and finances have not noticeably improved.