Ask HN: How can I start a business to generate electricity?
136 comments
I don't want to be discouraging but if this is the level you are at right now, "deploy and maintain on your own" is very likely to get you electrocuted. Grid level electricity generation is not something to "move fast and break things" with.
That said, get acquainted with:
- How the electrical grid works. You will at the least want to have a working understanding on how generators synchronize to produce a coherent grid and how frequency regulation works. You should be able to at least immediately tell the difference between a MW and a MVAR, or to clearly explain the impact of power factor correction on transmission line capacity.
- The various different primary energy sources (fossil fuels, nuclear, wind, solar) and how they differ.
- Your local electricity grid regulator will have published rules for the local wholesale electricity market. Learn those and how to interact with them. You should probably be aware that for most markets the minimum bid size is in the order of megawatts, which is enough for about a thousand homes.
- The economics of how power generation works. Power generation has massive economies of scale and single-person initiatives are unlikely to be able to compete.
- Last but certainly not least, get yourself up to date with safety regulations. Grid level electricity will not only kill you, it will hurt the entire time too.
If you want to "just" make enough electricity for yourself, get some solar panels on your roof. I'm sorry this post is probably not what you were hoping for but electricity is really really dangerous and not something you should be going into if you don't have a firm grasp of what you are doing.
That said, get acquainted with:
- How the electrical grid works. You will at the least want to have a working understanding on how generators synchronize to produce a coherent grid and how frequency regulation works. You should be able to at least immediately tell the difference between a MW and a MVAR, or to clearly explain the impact of power factor correction on transmission line capacity.
- The various different primary energy sources (fossil fuels, nuclear, wind, solar) and how they differ.
- Your local electricity grid regulator will have published rules for the local wholesale electricity market. Learn those and how to interact with them. You should probably be aware that for most markets the minimum bid size is in the order of megawatts, which is enough for about a thousand homes.
- The economics of how power generation works. Power generation has massive economies of scale and single-person initiatives are unlikely to be able to compete.
- Last but certainly not least, get yourself up to date with safety regulations. Grid level electricity will not only kill you, it will hurt the entire time too.
If you want to "just" make enough electricity for yourself, get some solar panels on your roof. I'm sorry this post is probably not what you were hoping for but electricity is really really dangerous and not something you should be going into if you don't have a firm grasp of what you are doing.
> The economics of how power generation works. Power generation has massive economies of scale and single-person initiatives are unlikely to be able to compete.
The only "in" for a small player is remote/rural where the cost of distribution infrastructure dominates. Also dispatchable service to provide frequency stability seems to be a niche.
The only "in" for a small player is remote/rural where the cost of distribution infrastructure dominates. Also dispatchable service to provide frequency stability seems to be a niche.
> The only "in" for a small player is remote/rural where the cost of distribution infrastructure dominates.
Even then, you still have the same high cost for distribution infrastructure (actually higher once you factor in economies of scale) with none of the experience building said infrastructure. And you're probably not going to be able to build an isolated grid because (at least in the US) power companies have already run wires basically anywhere people are willing to pay for power.
The biggest market I can see is neighbors pooling funds for a large solar installation and wiring up everyone's houses to reduce power bills, but that would probably be a permitting nightmare (and that's assuming there's no legislation prohibiting this already).
Even then, you still have the same high cost for distribution infrastructure (actually higher once you factor in economies of scale) with none of the experience building said infrastructure. And you're probably not going to be able to build an isolated grid because (at least in the US) power companies have already run wires basically anywhere people are willing to pay for power.
The biggest market I can see is neighbors pooling funds for a large solar installation and wiring up everyone's houses to reduce power bills, but that would probably be a permitting nightmare (and that's assuming there's no legislation prohibiting this already).
There's legislation in many places to make this easier - it's typically called 'community solar'. You build a separately metered solar installation somewhere, and people nearby typically 'subscribe' to the power at some fixed rate, and it gets credited to the account associated with the meter at your house.
> Last but certainly not least, get yourself up to date with safety regulations. Grid level electricity will not only kill you, it will hurt the entire time too.
Building-level electricity is the type where a dropped spanner instantly becomes a faceful of gaseous metal. If you think you have time to feel the pain, you don't understand grid level energy yet.
Building-level electricity is the type where a dropped spanner instantly becomes a faceful of gaseous metal. If you think you have time to feel the pain, you don't understand grid level energy yet.
And plasma!
Yeah, was about to say - grid level arc flashes don’t even require being particularly close to a conductor, let alone provide enough time for the miscreant to feel pain before becoming chunks or vapor.
It can leave cool scorch marks though!
Yeah, was about to say - grid level arc flashes don’t even require being particularly close to a conductor, let alone provide enough time for the miscreant to feel pain before becoming chunks or vapor.
It can leave cool scorch marks though!
> Your local electricity grid regulator will have published rules for the local wholesale electricity market. Learn those and how to interact with them. You should probably be aware that for most markets the minimum bid size is in the order of megawatts, which is enough for about a thousand homes.
And for reference, a MW of Solar panels costs close to $1M - so this is not really a feasible industry for the average Joe to enter.
And for reference, a MW of Solar panels costs close to $1M - so this is not really a feasible industry for the average Joe to enter.
Why not? Many of the most common franchise businesses have entry costs around $1 million
I don't think that's what "Average Joes" are getting into, though.
NYC Taxi medallions used to cost about $1M before ridesharing companies arrived.
People would take out loans to afford them, or rent them from the real "franchise owner".
Not everybody aspires to a unicorn exit. Predictable returns are worth a lot too, even small ones. The drivers who took out loans for their medallions really got screwed when Uber came in, but if the demand for electricity drops catastrophically, we'll probably have bigger problems than a bit of debt.
People would take out loans to afford them, or rent them from the real "franchise owner".
Not everybody aspires to a unicorn exit. Predictable returns are worth a lot too, even small ones. The drivers who took out loans for their medallions really got screwed when Uber came in, but if the demand for electricity drops catastrophically, we'll probably have bigger problems than a bit of debt.
1) that's just the cost of the panels.
2) you might need to have 10x that much (in just panels).
3) I'd be amazed if you could find financing for this.
2) you might need to have 10x that much (in just panels).
3) I'd be amazed if you could find financing for this.
Why not just make a startup for that money. You can train a GPT-3 clone for that money. You can hire a few ML grad students to make some dangerous AI the big companies think is unethical.
Or you can do a deep tech startup like mini Varda. $1MM can get you far enough that you attract VC money and that’s all you need.
Or you can do a deep tech startup like mini Varda. $1MM can get you far enough that you attract VC money and that’s all you need.
Solar panels are much lower risk. Electricity is a well known product. It's a straightforward process from building it to getting cash in your account.
Are there opportunities to become a “Solar franchisee” ?
That’s an awesome idea. I don’t know.
It might look more like a micro financing idea than a franchise. Most of the commercial-scale solar installations today are built by a developer and then either a) held in their portfolio or b) sold to a utility
It might look more like a micro financing idea than a franchise. Most of the commercial-scale solar installations today are built by a developer and then either a) held in their portfolio or b) sold to a utility
> I'm sorry this post is probably not what you were hoping for but electricity is really really dangerous […].
People probably discouraged the Wright Brothers, Amelia Earhart, and Thomas Edison too for safety reasons.
Don’t be discouraged OP. If you want to do it, go for it.
People probably discouraged the Wright Brothers, Amelia Earhart, and Thomas Edison too for safety reasons.
Don’t be discouraged OP. If you want to do it, go for it.
The Wright Brothers owned a mechanical shops for a decade specialising in printing press and bicycles before building gliders and prototype for years. They had a lot of experience in manufacturing.
Earhart had been a pilot for eight years before attempting to cross the Atlantic.
The only exemple of someone entering a highly regulated industry without being an insider I can think of is Musk and SpaceX and even then he was previously rich, started by building the connection which would allow him to get public funds through the Mars Society and his first move was hiring Tom Mueller, an industry insider.
In my experience, people with a software background who don’t have an industrial background heavily underestimate the complexity involved.
Earhart had been a pilot for eight years before attempting to cross the Atlantic.
The only exemple of someone entering a highly regulated industry without being an insider I can think of is Musk and SpaceX and even then he was previously rich, started by building the connection which would allow him to get public funds through the Mars Society and his first move was hiring Tom Mueller, an industry insider.
In my experience, people with a software background who don’t have an industrial background heavily underestimate the complexity involved.
This is a regulated industry where as soon as you touch high-power generation, generally both the plans and the actual installation need to be done and/or reviewed by certified personnel or everything they build will be prohibited to connect to the network and thus simply worthless. This is not a domain where random experimentation is permitted. Their first step should be hiring someone who knows the relevant local regulations and can advise them on what is and isn't an acceptable way to proceed in their specific regulatory environment, because currently not only they don't know how to do it, they don't even know which things they are absolutely required to know.
Yes, there are specific parallels to the Wright brothers - if you want to make and fly a plane exactly like the Wright brothers did, well, you can't simply do that anymore, you need to follow FAA regulations and safety standards which didn't exist back then; and recommending that someone "just do it" would be irresponsible.
Yes, there are specific parallels to the Wright brothers - if you want to make and fly a plane exactly like the Wright brothers did, well, you can't simply do that anymore, you need to follow FAA regulations and safety standards which didn't exist back then; and recommending that someone "just do it" would be irresponsible.
A bit off-topic, but: does the FAA really have authority over airspace up to 10 meters high? For non-commercial self-created craft operated by their constructor? When used far from civilisation?
They definitely have authority at 30 feet above the surface, but the wright bros aircraft likely would operate under part 103 which governs ultralights and is fairly lax on regulation as long as you aren't operating near restricted airspace.
For example, with an ultralight you do not need any sort of pilot's license or medical certificate.
EDIT: Actually the wright bros aircraft would be too heavy to qualify as ultralight nowadays. But with today's materials I'd bet if they did it again they could get it under the weight limit.
For example, with an ultralight you do not need any sort of pilot's license or medical certificate.
EDIT: Actually the wright bros aircraft would be too heavy to qualify as ultralight nowadays. But with today's materials I'd bet if they did it again they could get it under the weight limit.
I wonder if there is an opportunity to deregulate whatever that makes sense and isn’t related to safety. I don’t know anything about Energy industry but like any industry, I’m positive that there is a lot of crud and inefficiencies built up over time.
There is opportunity to do a lot of things, but it'll never happen unless it gets tied into some broader agenda. "Enabling the common man to run their own power company" isn't something that gets people to the polls, so I seriously doubt it'll ever happen.
See also: those "crazy/wacky/funny laws in <city/state/country>" books and listicles that feature antiquated laws that are still on the books (some of which are most certainly unconstitutional) but nobody cares about enforcing them, so there exists no political will to repeal them.
See also: those "crazy/wacky/funny laws in <city/state/country>" books and listicles that feature antiquated laws that are still on the books (some of which are most certainly unconstitutional) but nobody cares about enforcing them, so there exists no political will to repeal them.
Well, nobody had ever flown a plane before the Wright brothers.
Civilization has had grid scale electrical power for over a hundred years. It’s sheer hubris to ignore the fact that this is a mature industry with experts that have studied the problem for decades.
Civilization has had grid scale electrical power for over a hundred years. It’s sheer hubris to ignore the fact that this is a mature industry with experts that have studied the problem for decades.
I suggest you read the book "The Innovation Stack." It's a presents a good alternative to the "Hubris" argument, with specific examples related to quite established industries.
The person asking isn’t trying to innovate, just do what other people are already doing (which is cool; I make my living doing what millions of people do very similarly.)
[deleted]
Those folks knew they were pushing the envelope and were aware of the risks involved. OP is looking to enter a well understood space that already exists. Getting themselves killed in the process wouldn't be in the noble pursuit of bettering humanity or anything like that... It would just be ignorance of well known/understood risks.
Are you just trolling OP or do really think the advice about learning how this works before you bankrupt or electrocute yourself is somehow flawed?
Not to me tonight your examples are a bit off. This is nowhere like the first powered flight. Earhart when missing swing her risky thing and was never seen again. Edison intentionally extracted large animals to drive artificial fear over the safety of AC, not to mention many of his most famous inventions are considered to be the fruit of his employees rather than his own intellect.
Not to me tonight your examples are a bit off. This is nowhere like the first powered flight. Earhart when missing swing her risky thing and was never seen again. Edison intentionally extracted large animals to drive artificial fear over the safety of AC, not to mention many of his most famous inventions are considered to be the fruit of his employees rather than his own intellect.
People have also discouraged thousands of non-famous people who got in over their head in a dangerous domain and killed themselves.
Also, the people you cite had expert level knowledge in their field when they built novel projects; they weren't asking beginner questions on HN.
Also, the people you cite had expert level knowledge in their field when they built novel projects; they weren't asking beginner questions on HN.
Yes, don't be discouraged. But don't be clueless. It is possible to do it safely, of course
Yeah, OP. You know so little about this subject matter that you are Asking HN. But you could be the next Edison! I mean it’s possible.
Put solar panels on your roof and contact your energy company so they can be hooked up to provide power onto the grid and give you energy credits. Not every area allows this but from what I understand some folks make money in the summer and then that offsets the costs they spend pulling power from the grid in the winter.
You really need to do a lot of research to figure out if it's feasible and if you have enough sunlight, area for panels, etc. to make it worthwhile. There's a lot of upfront costs too with the panels, meters, and extra protections necessary for when you're interfacing with sending power onto the grid--a lot of folks need to run their system for 5-10 years or more before it breaks even and starts making them money vs. all the initial costs.
You really need to do a lot of research to figure out if it's feasible and if you have enough sunlight, area for panels, etc. to make it worthwhile. There's a lot of upfront costs too with the panels, meters, and extra protections necessary for when you're interfacing with sending power onto the grid--a lot of folks need to run their system for 5-10 years or more before it breaks even and starts making them money vs. all the initial costs.
"Make money" in many energy markets is a misnomer, because not all markets pay out. For instance, I have home solar in Massachusetts, where I get a billing credit at the end of the month for excess generation. I can't cash that in (so I'll never be paid), but it does give me a "free" way to use electricity in the future. (Yes, I know it's not really free, because there's no return - I effectively lose money to inflation.)
I could do something economically productive with the billing credit, like charge EVs or mine crypto, but I consider that more a knock-on effect than a moneymaker.
I could do something economically productive with the billing credit, like charge EVs or mine crypto, but I consider that more a knock-on effect than a moneymaker.
It also ignores the upfront cost and roi. In many areas it takes almost the useful life of the panel to break even.
Around here[1], it used to take about 7 years. With the energy prices skyrocketing, that will probably be less, even if material and install costs are now higher.
[1] EU; I gathered that solar is significantly more expensive in the US.
[1] EU; I gathered that solar is significantly more expensive in the US.
Be aware that the risk of fire increases with roof-mounted solar panels. Also be aware of effects on homeowners insurance policies.
How?
You put some modern panels on your roof that absorb power from the sun that now no longer gets absorbed by your roof - so your roof is now a little cooler. A wooden roof is now actually less of a fire risk and a tiled roof will now absorb and radiate less heat - bonus!
I live in the UK. We build from sticks n bricks. We've had a bit of a heat wave recently that concentrates the mind somewhat. My office (I'm the MD) has a vast expanse of red brick double skinned which is south facing. My desk environment is around 10C warmer than the external temperature (I have a lot of sensors deployed). I have now decreed that when my desk temp is 30C then we abandon ship and work from home.
I'm going to investigate skimming the red brickwork with a white render. My parent's house is a modern build and that seems to help.
Oh, fire risk? What on earth are you on about? Insurance risk? What are you on about?
You put some modern panels on your roof that absorb power from the sun that now no longer gets absorbed by your roof - so your roof is now a little cooler. A wooden roof is now actually less of a fire risk and a tiled roof will now absorb and radiate less heat - bonus!
I live in the UK. We build from sticks n bricks. We've had a bit of a heat wave recently that concentrates the mind somewhat. My office (I'm the MD) has a vast expanse of red brick double skinned which is south facing. My desk environment is around 10C warmer than the external temperature (I have a lot of sensors deployed). I have now decreed that when my desk temp is 30C then we abandon ship and work from home.
I'm going to investigate skimming the red brickwork with a white render. My parent's house is a modern build and that seems to help.
Oh, fire risk? What on earth are you on about? Insurance risk? What are you on about?
>>>Oh, fire risk? What on earth are you on about? Insurance risk? What are you on about?
Adding a whole bunch of electrical equipment (that's exposed to the elements, wildlife, etc.) absolutely increases the risk of fire. Panels are heavy as well, so you're increasing the load on the roof, could increase risk of collapse (especially in areas that get lots of snow). Plus, if you don't notify your insurance company, it's at best not going to cover replacement cost of panels if something goes wrong and at worst invalidate your whole policy.
Adding a whole bunch of electrical equipment (that's exposed to the elements, wildlife, etc.) absolutely increases the risk of fire. Panels are heavy as well, so you're increasing the load on the roof, could increase risk of collapse (especially in areas that get lots of snow). Plus, if you don't notify your insurance company, it's at best not going to cover replacement cost of panels if something goes wrong and at worst invalidate your whole policy.
In a house with ring mains already. We also have a fair few ideas about the elements.
I trained as a Civ Eng in Plymouth (the British one). I now own an IT company. I have a fair idea about fire risk (I'm our fire officer too) and how some materials behave in general and under loads and incident (eg fire).
In my opinion, roof mounted solar panels have very few risks in the UK. The likeliest risk is wind related. We are seeing increasingly strong gusts - virtually nothing compared to tornados but this is a land that does not have tornadoes (yet).
We need to consider surviving Beaufort force 12 as a minimum standard.
I trained as a Civ Eng in Plymouth (the British one). I now own an IT company. I have a fair idea about fire risk (I'm our fire officer too) and how some materials behave in general and under loads and incident (eg fire).
In my opinion, roof mounted solar panels have very few risks in the UK. The likeliest risk is wind related. We are seeing increasingly strong gusts - virtually nothing compared to tornados but this is a land that does not have tornadoes (yet).
We need to consider surviving Beaufort force 12 as a minimum standard.
The UK does get the occasional tornado. Mostly in the midlands, and mostly places where they don't get noticed, but they do happen fairly frequently in fact.
https://www.bbc.com/news/education-33136737
https://www.bbc.com/news/education-33136737
The usual way electrical fires happen: Electric wiring work done by incompetents. So much bad wiring, in places that are very inconvenient to inspect.
So ... don't.
Easily said but ... don't
Easily said but ... don't
I'm not sure how you can realize that there is a fire risk from improper electrical but then also declare that solar panels do not increase fire risk.
Properly installed? Sure, no or minimal risk.
But insurance companies deal in aggregate, which includes improperly installed panels.
Properly installed? Sure, no or minimal risk.
But insurance companies deal in aggregate, which includes improperly installed panels.
Yes, easily said. There is a solar power installation boom going on. Do the math.
> I have now decreed that when my desk temp is 30C then we abandon ship and work from home.
My understanding is that the legislation actually requires the working environment be cooler than that, so I get the sentiment, and ironically probably many of your employees' homes will be hotter, but I think you've set the bar too high.
My understanding is that the legislation actually requires the working environment be cooler than that, so I get the sentiment, and ironically probably many of your employees' homes will be hotter, but I think you've set the bar too high.
My desk is at the warmest place in the building - it's at an upper corner of the building, south facing and at the end of a room. I had to come up with some metric and this is the first year that it got so bad that I had to bailout and I sent everyone else home too, so I've set 30C at my desk as a first threshold. I'll probably lower it.
I am the H&S bod, and shortly I'll be first aid accredited (again). Mind you I've done first aid for sailing and skiing back in the day too, so I know what you are supposed to do when hit by an avalanche ("swim" and pray, or soil yourself and pray - which is more likely) and how to treat or at least mitigate hypothermia.
For some reason we have had loads of practice in working from home recently. I'm an expert in VPNs and all my staff have home phones virtually wired up to our PBX.
I am the H&S bod, and shortly I'll be first aid accredited (again). Mind you I've done first aid for sailing and skiing back in the day too, so I know what you are supposed to do when hit by an avalanche ("swim" and pray, or soil yourself and pray - which is more likely) and how to treat or at least mitigate hypothermia.
For some reason we have had loads of practice in working from home recently. I'm an expert in VPNs and all my staff have home phones virtually wired up to our PBX.
About 20-25% of that solar energy not going into your shingles or whatever now goes through an copper cable. Still a lot of energy, and if not wired correctly, that is still a risk.
The other 75% of solar energy heats up the panels themselves I guess and/or is reflected.
The other 75% of solar energy heats up the panels themselves I guess and/or is reflected.
There's a solar power boom going on right now. That kind of thing tends to attract bad actors, so you get sub-par installations performed by poorly trained people. That's the cause of most of the fire risk.
Citation? It's not intuitive why that should happen -- potential short-circuits?
In Australia we have a large amount of rooftop solar. We used to fit isolation switches near the panels on the roofs so that we could de-energise as much wiring as possible in the case of a fire.
The stats showed that the rooftop isolation switches shorting out was the leading cause of fires. We no longer fit them.
The stats showed that the rooftop isolation switches shorting out was the leading cause of fires. We no longer fit them.
From https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2021/11/16/a-guide-to-addressing...
"More than 90% of inspected rooftops had significant safety and fire risks. Here’s how to protect your solar asset."
Lots of bad wiring. Get a 3rd party inspector.
"More than 90% of inspected rooftops had significant safety and fire risks. Here’s how to protect your solar asset."
Lots of bad wiring. Get a 3rd party inspector.
Interesting and useful -- thanks. My understanding is that, at least for residential installations, the city sends an inspector to check things before you're allowed to turn the system on. This would appear to avoid the first-party inspector issues identified in the article, but are the city inspectors sufficiently "strict" or should I hire my own for peace of mind?
I saw one non-solar project where the city inspector seemed to be friends with the electrical contractor. They spent 20 minutes shooting the breeze, then the inspector did a super-fast scan of things, signed off, and left.
May be best to watch the inspector do the inspection?
May be best to watch the inspector do the inspection?
A certain amount of searching should be required before forcing homework onto others. You can literally google "risk of fire increases with roof-mounted solar panels" and you will see it from tons of sources including pv-magazine and others.
"Citation?", "[Citation]", "Citation Needed" - these all bother me when the research is literally just copy/paste/search.
"Citation?", "[Citation]", "Citation Needed" - these all bother me when the research is literally just copy/paste/search.
Arguments presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. The person making a claim is the one required to back up their argument - not forcing homework on everyone who reads their unbaked argument to find evidence for your claims.
Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Interesting point, but I'm going to need a citation for that.
If you are going to make a claim, you should back it up with citations. [1]
[1] https://guides.lib.uw.edu/research/citations/citationwhat
[1] https://guides.lib.uw.edu/research/citations/citationwhat
You’re putting an electrical system where there wasn’t one before. It’d be surprising if there wasn’t an increased risk.
More electrical systems in your house means more risk of fire.
More electrical systems in your house means more risk of fire.
For reference in the UK this is around 7.5p per KWH put in to the grid.
Unless you use octopus agile outgoing, which is depending on the time of day anything between 30-80p+/kWh: https://www.energy-stats.uk/octopus-agile-outgoing-export-lo...
You are better off having a bloody big battery and charging that and using it yourself.
Pre the latest increase today 'leccy costed around 30p per KWH - after today it will be at least 45p. 7.5p for self generated is nice but I suggest you use your own generated power.
Pre the latest increase today 'leccy costed around 30p per KWH - after today it will be at least 45p. 7.5p for self generated is nice but I suggest you use your own generated power.
Depending on where you live, e.g. proximity to the equator, you will probably never recoup the initial investment or if you do the panels will probably be at their end of life when you do. So you'll never really "make money". But you will insulate yourself from demand spikes and give you an emergency backup.
Most panels have 25-30 year warranty. And even then, they'd still operate at around 80% of rated performance.
The last thing I want to do is discourage anyone from learning, but I'm afraid you're looking at this (fascinating) field the wrong way. To the extent that this is unlikely to be an interesting intellectual pursuit for you, as it's currently framed.
If you really do want to operate a business generating electricity, start by learning how the power market operates in your area. Unless you live off-grid with a high degree of autonomy, you're likely to find that there are zero opportunities for an individual to enter this market on their own. Providing stable power to the grid requires unbelievable amounts of capital, planning, compliance, person-hours, and way too many other elements to list here.
If what you're actually interested in is generating electricity for yourself or your community, the good news is this is much more approachable. Developing and operating small-scale off-grid renewable energy system for a small home is achievable with off-the-shelf components and a basic understanding of electronics. You'll still want an electrician to validate and perhaps perform some of the work, but it's all pretty basic.
If what you're actually interested in is spearheading a renewable energy campaign for a large community currently dependent on other forms of power, take a look at community solar programs and energy cooperatives. Both are in practice all over the US.
If you really do want to operate a business generating electricity, start by learning how the power market operates in your area. Unless you live off-grid with a high degree of autonomy, you're likely to find that there are zero opportunities for an individual to enter this market on their own. Providing stable power to the grid requires unbelievable amounts of capital, planning, compliance, person-hours, and way too many other elements to list here.
If what you're actually interested in is generating electricity for yourself or your community, the good news is this is much more approachable. Developing and operating small-scale off-grid renewable energy system for a small home is achievable with off-the-shelf components and a basic understanding of electronics. You'll still want an electrician to validate and perhaps perform some of the work, but it's all pretty basic.
If what you're actually interested in is spearheading a renewable energy campaign for a large community currently dependent on other forms of power, take a look at community solar programs and energy cooperatives. Both are in practice all over the US.
Thank you very much for your kind, considerate, and cautionary response. I can totally understand that out of my depth, and I am asking the wrong questions based on my vantage point. One question that I would now add to my list of questions would be form of the 3rd question, but more like: “what are the right kind of questions I should be asking myself when approaching this broad topic?”.
I kind of want of something in between the first two potential interests. Imagine something that is like a cross between a solar panel and a night light that you plug in to an AC outlet, but that plays nice with the local power grid in every which way. Sure the amount of power it could produce would be negligible, but being able to create something that is able to feed the grid and meet all appropriate regulations for the electrical code would be an accomplishment in itself. I don’t know what the physics and capital costs behind creating something like that would be or if this idea absolutely infeasible because of the same physics and capital costs, but that is also what I am trying to learn. I am also not married to this idea at all: it is just an illustration of my level of knowledge on the subject matter as a whole, and the kinds of questions that first come to my mind.
I kind of want of something in between the first two potential interests. Imagine something that is like a cross between a solar panel and a night light that you plug in to an AC outlet, but that plays nice with the local power grid in every which way. Sure the amount of power it could produce would be negligible, but being able to create something that is able to feed the grid and meet all appropriate regulations for the electrical code would be an accomplishment in itself. I don’t know what the physics and capital costs behind creating something like that would be or if this idea absolutely infeasible because of the same physics and capital costs, but that is also what I am trying to learn. I am also not married to this idea at all: it is just an illustration of my level of knowledge on the subject matter as a whole, and the kinds of questions that first come to my mind.
Happy you found my comments helpful. If you want to learn more about the technologies and companies behind the energy transition you can check out this list we curate[0]. I would also recommend reading Project Drawdown[1] for a high level overview of the emerging generation of energy technology.
For what it’s worth, the scenario you describe is basically how the state of the art home systems work in the markets that support them. Distributed generation (via solar), energy storage (via batteries), and bidirectional grid connections for feeding surplus energy to the grid. Some companies even aggregate homes to act as a virtual power plant which can be dispatched on demand. There is a ton of interesting stuff happening in this area, I hope you find an opportunity that suits you!
[0] https://climatescape.org/categories/energy [1] https://projectdrawdown.org
For what it’s worth, the scenario you describe is basically how the state of the art home systems work in the markets that support them. Distributed generation (via solar), energy storage (via batteries), and bidirectional grid connections for feeding surplus energy to the grid. Some companies even aggregate homes to act as a virtual power plant which can be dispatched on demand. There is a ton of interesting stuff happening in this area, I hope you find an opportunity that suits you!
[0] https://climatescape.org/categories/energy [1] https://projectdrawdown.org
Indeed participating in a power market whatsoever (even paper trading) usually has regulatory and collateral requirements to get in the door. For example, on MISO in the US: https://cdn.misoenergy.org/Minimum%20Participation%20Require...
1. Depends on where you live. In the Houston area, it’s any power generation from 0 to 10MW for connecting to Centerpoint. You can generate (solar) from your home. As you approach larger numbers (like say 20 - 30 kilowatts) is going to require special design because you’ll push the limits of a single meter. The cheapest and easiest way to get started is to just offset your home usage with solar.
2. There is a tariff for interconnection, and you need anti islanding. Inspections are backlogged by 6-12 months in the area. You’ll need an electrician to draw up the plans for submission to Centerpoint.
3. Even though Texas’s power market is famously “unregulated”, it’s still very regulated. I recommend starting here: https://www.ercot.com/services/training/courses/details?name...
ERCOT has a wealth of information available so that you can get up to speed.
2. There is a tariff for interconnection, and you need anti islanding. Inspections are backlogged by 6-12 months in the area. You’ll need an electrician to draw up the plans for submission to Centerpoint.
3. Even though Texas’s power market is famously “unregulated”, it’s still very regulated. I recommend starting here: https://www.ercot.com/services/training/courses/details?name...
ERCOT has a wealth of information available so that you can get up to speed.
I tried this. As other commenters have pointed out the big challenge is regulatory.
That said, my approach was to find businesses or individuals as near as possible to a given piece of land (a lot I own) and see if they would buy power directly from me. I also contacted the local utility provider (as other commenters suggest) to see if I could sell them power or lease them equipment or land.
The idea was something like: find a large power consumer nearby - someone heating a hot tub, running a woodworking shop, data centre, whatever; undercut the local utility, see what the payback period would be on the capital equipment, then get a legal consult on how to paper it, then hire electricians to hook it all up.
tldr I suggest validating the market first.
That said, my approach was to find businesses or individuals as near as possible to a given piece of land (a lot I own) and see if they would buy power directly from me. I also contacted the local utility provider (as other commenters suggest) to see if I could sell them power or lease them equipment or land.
The idea was something like: find a large power consumer nearby - someone heating a hot tub, running a woodworking shop, data centre, whatever; undercut the local utility, see what the payback period would be on the capital equipment, then get a legal consult on how to paper it, then hire electricians to hook it all up.
tldr I suggest validating the market first.
> What is the thinnest vertical slice of end-to-end power-generation functionality that an individual would be able deploy and maintain on their own?
Becoming a solar installer and engaging in some kind of revenue sharing or a loan kind of structure for getting residential or commercial customers in on it.
Building solar powered vehicle charging stations.
Building backup generation facilities for things like data centers or hospitals.
Becoming a solar installer and engaging in some kind of revenue sharing or a loan kind of structure for getting residential or commercial customers in on it.
Building solar powered vehicle charging stations.
Building backup generation facilities for things like data centers or hospitals.
Oh you know what the OP could do? Two-for-one: install solar panels while simultaneously operating bouncy castles around the perimeter of the roof. So the kids beg for their parents to install solar so they get their bouncy castles for a day, birthday maybe, the synergy being that solar panel installers can fall off safely because there's a bouncy castle right there breaking their fall (I've fallen off 3 meters onto school gymnastics mattresses, it's amazing), so then you get first off no deaths from installing solar panels, meaning you get the best ratings for human death for any electricity source (it's mostly people falling off roofs, hence the bouncy castles), you don't have to transport that much weight (bouncy castles unlike bulky mattresses are just plastic balloons you can fold), it's an event and a sales thing that should work, gets people thinking. Gets the littlest people thinking. And plus it's a line item, you don't need as much liability insurance and harness shit, which is crazy expensive and often impedes the job completely, or compromises it, everything takes a lot longer and you need more experience, can't get unemployed guys off the street like the Alphabet Soup agencies in the Depression, just telling broke guys under 25 hey pick up a shovel and come along, dig holes because you're a man and you can get work done with your hands and legs and arms and feet and back.
So get on a roof and put solar panels on, you can do it! Fall off? Relax! Fall on the bouncy castle, sprained ankle at worst.
And you align solar with the future, which is to say the children.
OP please steal this idea. Please. Never give me credit, I just would love seeing a pamphlet saying "bouncy castle solar" on it, ideally handed to me in an inconvenient time and demanding my attention rudely. That level of success.
So get on a roof and put solar panels on, you can do it! Fall off? Relax! Fall on the bouncy castle, sprained ankle at worst.
And you align solar with the future, which is to say the children.
OP please steal this idea. Please. Never give me credit, I just would love seeing a pamphlet saying "bouncy castle solar" on it, ideally handed to me in an inconvenient time and demanding my attention rudely. That level of success.
AC power is very different to DC power. A great deal of the efficiency loss and cost associated with small-scale renewable power is in DC-AC conversion, grid connectivity and associated regulatory concerns. Third party professional installations for house-type solar will bundle all of this and be expensive.
More progressive installations and new builds can just go 100% DC and drop the AC and the grid entirely. Whether this is appropriate is case-dependent. It's easier if you cook, shower and heat with gas. This obviously restricts internal design decisions but is totally possible, provides better results, greatly reduces regulatory overheads and safety concerns and is closer to what we see on cruising yachts which often have combinations of wind generation, solar generation and propeller-based generation.
Another concern is energy storage methodology. If you are building a new site you can consider interesting storage technologies such as buried flywheels vs. batteries. Some of these techniques will cost more up front but function far longer with far less maintenance. Fossil-fuel based generators are a good backup option. You really need to profile the loads in terms of peak and continuous draw plus cycle time and frequency before specifying storage.
Note that distribution cabling is expensive. Both copper and aluminium are going up in price and even at wholesale rates here in China heavier gauge copper cable is USD$1.5/meter or so (bare). Cheaper aluminium cables cost about 25% of that but Al is brittle and develops resistance over time owing to surface oxidation, contributing to the probability of delayed failures.
You could start with reading your national electrical code and national building code to understand the installation applicable regulations.
More progressive installations and new builds can just go 100% DC and drop the AC and the grid entirely. Whether this is appropriate is case-dependent. It's easier if you cook, shower and heat with gas. This obviously restricts internal design decisions but is totally possible, provides better results, greatly reduces regulatory overheads and safety concerns and is closer to what we see on cruising yachts which often have combinations of wind generation, solar generation and propeller-based generation.
Another concern is energy storage methodology. If you are building a new site you can consider interesting storage technologies such as buried flywheels vs. batteries. Some of these techniques will cost more up front but function far longer with far less maintenance. Fossil-fuel based generators are a good backup option. You really need to profile the loads in terms of peak and continuous draw plus cycle time and frequency before specifying storage.
Note that distribution cabling is expensive. Both copper and aluminium are going up in price and even at wholesale rates here in China heavier gauge copper cable is USD$1.5/meter or so (bare). Cheaper aluminium cables cost about 25% of that but Al is brittle and develops resistance over time owing to surface oxidation, contributing to the probability of delayed failures.
You could start with reading your national electrical code and national building code to understand the installation applicable regulations.
In regards to (2), names of necessary things on the ecosystem
If you are an an electric deregulated market:
- Utility commission (PUC, etc.). They will typically have a lot of sway in your day to day.
- Retail Electric Providers: companies that operate as hedge funds and try to buy from you cheaply and sell to customers on a spread
- Aggregators: aggregate customers that purchase energy as a bloc
- Transmission & Distribution: the wires folks
- Power market: your area will vary, but this is an open market where you can sell. Typically you'll sell forward or futures contracts of a sort. There is often a day-ahead market and a real time market as well to help plug any gaps. A power provider that can spin up quickly does well here. Someone with a bunch of airplane turbines can also help here when supply > demand if they wire their turbines up (turbine = generators, backwards). There is a lot of creative financial focus in this space since the returns are more apparent than in power generation
If you are an an electric deregulated market:
- Utility commission (PUC, etc.). They will typically have a lot of sway in your day to day.
- Retail Electric Providers: companies that operate as hedge funds and try to buy from you cheaply and sell to customers on a spread
- Aggregators: aggregate customers that purchase energy as a bloc
- Transmission & Distribution: the wires folks
- Power market: your area will vary, but this is an open market where you can sell. Typically you'll sell forward or futures contracts of a sort. There is often a day-ahead market and a real time market as well to help plug any gaps. A power provider that can spin up quickly does well here. Someone with a bunch of airplane turbines can also help here when supply > demand if they wire their turbines up (turbine = generators, backwards). There is a lot of creative financial focus in this space since the returns are more apparent than in power generation
The first thing you will need is a suitable tie in to the commercial grid. This large overhead powerlines.
Without it that access, you are likely going nowhere even with a small commercial solar farm.
Without it that access, you are likely going nowhere even with a small commercial solar farm.
Before that you need land on which to build your plant
Start by doing an electrical engineering degree, or commerce law, or take the trade route in to power engineering from the apprenticeship level up.
Think about the supply chain. Is there a consumable which you could source and supply at better margin and lower cost? Is there a niche in replacement china insulation pots for the posts and wires? Can you make a better self tensioning high current wire connector?
Think about software. Is there a gap on demand management, software for power monitoring, weather prediction.
Do you know enough about it, to take baby steps?
Think about the supply chain. Is there a consumable which you could source and supply at better margin and lower cost? Is there a niche in replacement china insulation pots for the posts and wires? Can you make a better self tensioning high current wire connector?
Think about software. Is there a gap on demand management, software for power monitoring, weather prediction.
Do you know enough about it, to take baby steps?
Viable business plan:
Buy an abandoned strip mall in the south. Cover it with solar panels. Use the energy to fill portable batteries. Provide a EV charging service or subscription on wheels for Tesla owners or other EVs who are struggling to find charging spots or superchargers nearby. Raleigh NC, Charleston SC, etc are possible test spots and anywhere else EV infrastructure is not going on full swing.
I think the first question, as mentioned, in one of the previous comments, is your location.
There are many opportunities in smaller, distant communities that don't have grid service, or don't have good, grid service.
Those are places that have room for ideas and opportunities, hence business feasibility. Things like small river turbines, or other combined power sources, possibly wind and solar, even fuel generators as back up.
The systems are not really complicated, depending on the end user.
Obviously you are not trying to compete with the city of Austin or Dallas, Texas.
But tiny remote villages, need electricity. Start small, and as with most successful business, then grow. Find a niche. Then expand when you see the need or opportunity.
In the beginning, people without power, are happy to charge cell phones, or power a well pump.
Great idea!
Serious question: Why do you want to start a business making electricity if you don’t know anything about power generation? “Business” implies you want to make money, so what are you bringing to the table that would help you turn a profit? Capital? Land? Friends in high places? Why electricity and not something else?
I'm surprised to see this type of comment on HN. Many people have been successful because they aren't in the industry and "don't know anything". The OP is asking the question and learning, not jumping in and saying "I know how to do it better than anyone else", but because they don't have the ingrained "knowledge" of how things are done, they just may find a better way.
I’m all for people learning, and if someone has an idea for how to do something better, that’s great. But the OP asked extremely vague questions about entering a complex, highly-regulated, capital-intensive, safety-critical industry with no indication of having any kind of goal or relevant background knowledge. If they’re serious, then the obvious first step is “hire someone who knows how not to get electrocuted”, not “ask Hacker News to create a business plan for me”. (Which is a bit insulting, by the way — do your own homework!)
> Many people have been successful because they aren't in the industry and "don't know anything
Do you have some examples? I think those that were successful despite not knowing anything had other advantages, as the parent is saying (a lot of money, some friends, some expertise in some other field that was applicable to this problem...). So I think it's a fair question.
Do you have some examples? I think those that were successful despite not knowing anything had other advantages, as the parent is saying (a lot of money, some friends, some expertise in some other field that was applicable to this problem...). So I think it's a fair question.
1. Find someone who wants to buy electricity. Seriously what grid operator has open offers for proposals to connect new generation, on any scale? Start there.
2. Find land that works for building your plant. It should be near existing transmission or distribution infrastructure so you don’t have to build as much yourself, which is expensive, and it should have good road access already, so you don’t have to build as much yourself, which is expensive.
3. Get a connection study done by the utility which proves it is possible for them to accept the energy at the location you want to build your plant
4. Sign contract to sell your energy
4. Get environmental studies done to prove you won’t harm birds fish insects etc
5. Get financing and insurance
6. Contract out design and construction of your plant. Probably operation too.
The technical side is the easy part. Getting the contracts and permits in place is harder.
2. Find land that works for building your plant. It should be near existing transmission or distribution infrastructure so you don’t have to build as much yourself, which is expensive, and it should have good road access already, so you don’t have to build as much yourself, which is expensive.
3. Get a connection study done by the utility which proves it is possible for them to accept the energy at the location you want to build your plant
4. Sign contract to sell your energy
4. Get environmental studies done to prove you won’t harm birds fish insects etc
5. Get financing and insurance
6. Contract out design and construction of your plant. Probably operation too.
The technical side is the easy part. Getting the contracts and permits in place is harder.
The thinnest slice is remote power systems for off grid locations at the scale of a few solar panels, a small generator, a wind turbine, or hydroelectric…in order of increasing regulatory hurdles and real estate acquisition.
Under capitalization is most likely to bite you. That’s true of all business.
Good luck.
Under capitalization is most likely to bite you. That’s true of all business.
Good luck.
The thinnest slice of ... end to end...? Maintainable by one person?
Something like a microcontroller based remote weather sensing node, or a garden night-light, powered by a 1-watt PV panel. That has generation, transmission, conversion, storage and end use all in one package. End to end. Very thin. Maintainable by an individual.
A business? Hire a registered electrical engineer who specialized in Power Systems Engineering. Likely, you'll need several, because of the sub-specialties. Lawyers too. This is not 1887. We have a lot of laws about consumer and third-party safety now.
If you just want to learn about generation and distribution, get an EE degree specialising in Power Systems.
Something like a microcontroller based remote weather sensing node, or a garden night-light, powered by a 1-watt PV panel. That has generation, transmission, conversion, storage and end use all in one package. End to end. Very thin. Maintainable by an individual.
A business? Hire a registered electrical engineer who specialized in Power Systems Engineering. Likely, you'll need several, because of the sub-specialties. Lawyers too. This is not 1887. We have a lot of laws about consumer and third-party safety now.
If you just want to learn about generation and distribution, get an EE degree specialising in Power Systems.
> 3. What parts are too easy to dismiss early on, but are likely to bite me later on?
Regulation. (Highly depends on where you live, though).
Regulation. (Highly depends on where you live, though).
Some thoughts from some random internet stranger:
1. Connectivity is an issue that isn't power generation per se but a potential business opportunity. From what I gather, the power grid would be more stable if we had better connectivity and the isolation of Texas from other parts of the US has been a factor in some of their issues of late.
2. Electricity generation is very much an environmental issue. Regulation is a big thing generally, but environmental regulation is something likely to bit you at some point. If you can do something that is so high quality in that regard that it is likely to exceed any standards that may be instituted in the near future, you would have an edge on competitors.
3. Energy storage is a big issue. We are moving towards solar and wind, both of which put out energy but don't create stored energy, unlike historical hydro which dammed up water and thus created a store of potential energy that could be adjusted at times.
4. Both solar and wind are variable in their ability to produce energy. Wind power has the issue that when a big storm comes, they may need to shut things down to prevent damage to the system and cannot handle the potential big influx of power the high winds represent. We are apparently failing to capture a lot of value in that regard.
5. Wind and solar tend to be complementary but I don't know how often they get packaged together for off-grid applications. It's common for it to be windier than usual when the sun is not available (during storms, shortly after dark).
I think there is lots of ways you could create new businesses related to energy. I encourage you to find some means to just start reading, come up with your own ideas of where some of our energy generation pain points are and go from there.
People tend to do more of the same old, same old. If you find some new angle, keep it quiet until you get traction etc, you can potentially make a mint and also go down in history as some kind of hero for solving this. We currently do a lot of hand-wringing about how there are too many people, there are not enough resources to support them, we are doomed, we need to stop consuming so much electricity, etc ad nauseum.
Best of luck.
1. Connectivity is an issue that isn't power generation per se but a potential business opportunity. From what I gather, the power grid would be more stable if we had better connectivity and the isolation of Texas from other parts of the US has been a factor in some of their issues of late.
2. Electricity generation is very much an environmental issue. Regulation is a big thing generally, but environmental regulation is something likely to bit you at some point. If you can do something that is so high quality in that regard that it is likely to exceed any standards that may be instituted in the near future, you would have an edge on competitors.
3. Energy storage is a big issue. We are moving towards solar and wind, both of which put out energy but don't create stored energy, unlike historical hydro which dammed up water and thus created a store of potential energy that could be adjusted at times.
4. Both solar and wind are variable in their ability to produce energy. Wind power has the issue that when a big storm comes, they may need to shut things down to prevent damage to the system and cannot handle the potential big influx of power the high winds represent. We are apparently failing to capture a lot of value in that regard.
5. Wind and solar tend to be complementary but I don't know how often they get packaged together for off-grid applications. It's common for it to be windier than usual when the sun is not available (during storms, shortly after dark).
I think there is lots of ways you could create new businesses related to energy. I encourage you to find some means to just start reading, come up with your own ideas of where some of our energy generation pain points are and go from there.
People tend to do more of the same old, same old. If you find some new angle, keep it quiet until you get traction etc, you can potentially make a mint and also go down in history as some kind of hero for solving this. We currently do a lot of hand-wringing about how there are too many people, there are not enough resources to support them, we are doomed, we need to stop consuming so much electricity, etc ad nauseum.
Best of luck.
A condo building I know of runs a bioreactor / waste water compost. They sell heat to a nearby hotel (ie, warm their water off-site) and fertilizer (IIRC). Not electricity, but heat and chemical energy.
Ignore the haters. Spend a few thousand bucks on some used PV panels on ebay, get a bunch of used batteries, and teach yourself enough electronics to DIY build everything else. That'll take you a bit of time, but you'll learn a TON and it's fun.
It'll be a while before you get to the point where you can safely hook up to the grid "DIY", so don't do that. As other posts have mentioned, how the national grid works is fascinating and non-trivial. (I love knowing that stuff, just because I'm a dork)
It'll be a while before you get to the point where you can safely hook up to the grid "DIY", so don't do that. As other posts have mentioned, how the national grid works is fascinating and non-trivial. (I love knowing that stuff, just because I'm a dork)
An MVP would be a Honda diesel generator which powers your home when the wind farms stop working.
I think the best way to start a business generating electricity is to start a business making individual businesses, buildings, and homes more self-sufficient with their electricity needs based on their surroundings rather than thinking in terms of power plants. For example, if the building is near a river, using the river to spin a generator or using windmills in high wind areas, etc. There was actually a pretty cool example of this on the show Dirty Jobs. A guy harvested methane from his animal's poop to power parts of his farm.
To answer your questions.
1. Create your own vertical based on your surroundings. There are really only two ways we currently make electricity, spinning a turbine which then spins a generator, and photovoltaics.
A generator can be made from an electric motor. Figure out how to spin your generator and you are making electricity, or buy some solar panels.
2. Be familiar with Maxwell's equations (these equations explain how both generators and electric motors work), how to read and understand loss charts for wiring, College level circuits, and most importantly safety.
3. Learn basic electrical safety and high voltage electrical safety. High voltage safety is different because of the potential for arcing and it can "grab" you.
To answer your questions.
1. Create your own vertical based on your surroundings. There are really only two ways we currently make electricity, spinning a turbine which then spins a generator, and photovoltaics.
A generator can be made from an electric motor. Figure out how to spin your generator and you are making electricity, or buy some solar panels.
2. Be familiar with Maxwell's equations (these equations explain how both generators and electric motors work), how to read and understand loss charts for wiring, College level circuits, and most importantly safety.
3. Learn basic electrical safety and high voltage electrical safety. High voltage safety is different because of the potential for arcing and it can "grab" you.
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By yourself, with most common generation technologies, you don't have much of a chance. Current technologies are almost entirely a capital allocation problem, and small producers are not a reasonable solution.
However, if you can conceivably generate emissions-free power on-demand at a cost lower than what they're paying now, you will likely have hundreds of companies knocking your door down trying to help fund your scale out.
However, if you can conceivably generate emissions-free power on-demand at a cost lower than what they're paying now, you will likely have hundreds of companies knocking your door down trying to help fund your scale out.
The Bitcoin miner space is a good place to look for articles; they are always looking for cheap/profitable electricity generation.
I am assuming you are not constrained to be a powergrid-connected power plant that is sending power to the grid.
In that sense, a minimal self-contained idea might be to build a charging station. You can build one using solar charging, battery storage and with grid power backup, for example, from first principles.
The solar + battery storage part of the charging station is the power plant and you can build that with existing tech components.
If you are focused on the business aspect of it more than the tech, you can instead focus on becoming an operator by choosing tech (charging stations) that is already available off-the-shelf and instead build a charging network (in a specific geography or market such as residential/apartments/parking lots).
To answer your question on the parts that are easy to dismiss: Focus on the business context, technology, organization, people and process questions. Each of these has a lot of problems and opportunities that you can uniquely choose to address with your company/initiative.
Good luck.
In that sense, a minimal self-contained idea might be to build a charging station. You can build one using solar charging, battery storage and with grid power backup, for example, from first principles.
The solar + battery storage part of the charging station is the power plant and you can build that with existing tech components.
If you are focused on the business aspect of it more than the tech, you can instead focus on becoming an operator by choosing tech (charging stations) that is already available off-the-shelf and instead build a charging network (in a specific geography or market such as residential/apartments/parking lots).
To answer your question on the parts that are easy to dismiss: Focus on the business context, technology, organization, people and process questions. Each of these has a lot of problems and opportunities that you can uniquely choose to address with your company/initiative.
Good luck.
You speak like a code monkey, so your best bet is not building your own generation facility, but managing others'. Renewable asset managers design algorithms that control the charge/discharge of storage connected to renewable generators in order to maximize profit.
I found a piece of land in north carolina adjoining a substation that's capable of 1mw, looking for a partner to build a solar plant. State has resources for permitting and planning these things. Probably(?) a ok source of long term passive income
Others have mentioned solar and getting your own home running on that which I think is a good first step.
Then understanding battery storage for the solar and integrating this.
You should become licensed to do all of this or be prepared to build a business that employs people to do so.
Next would be to build a solar grid in your yard or buy some land to build on. Then offer to sell it at below market rates to neighbors and integrate your solar grid into their homes.
The end goal being something analogous to a WISP which you could continue to add on to as capital and experience permits.
https://www.wispa.org/what_is_a_wisp.php
Then understanding battery storage for the solar and integrating this.
You should become licensed to do all of this or be prepared to build a business that employs people to do so.
Next would be to build a solar grid in your yard or buy some land to build on. Then offer to sell it at below market rates to neighbors and integrate your solar grid into their homes.
The end goal being something analogous to a WISP which you could continue to add on to as capital and experience permits.
https://www.wispa.org/what_is_a_wisp.php
Try this 25 kw gasifier to create electricity from biomass. It’s about the size of a pallet and can fit in your garage.
https://www.allpowerlabs.com/
https://www.allpowerlabs.com/
Have a look at zolaelectric.com. They sell small modular solar pv + battery power units. These units are meant to be purchased by businesses (micro-generators) who then sell the power generated to their subscribers.
The regulations here are prohibitively expensive.
Your state probably has a public service commission that won't allow you to compete with the local power company. Competition in the utilities business is illegal.
Your state probably has a public service commission that won't allow you to compete with the local power company. Competition in the utilities business is illegal.
Does it make sense to look at producing a power hungry product and selling it as a way to sidestep all the bureaucracy and monopolies in the public utility space?
Or perhaps it would make more sense to colocate with someone already producing such a product and selling them electricity so that you don't actually have to deal with making the product yourself?
I'm thinking aluminum, hydrogen, synthetic hydrocarbons, etc.
I'm completely uninformed, correct me if this is a stupid idea.
Or perhaps it would make more sense to colocate with someone already producing such a product and selling them electricity so that you don't actually have to deal with making the product yourself?
I'm thinking aluminum, hydrogen, synthetic hydrocarbons, etc.
I'm completely uninformed, correct me if this is a stupid idea.
Start with Youtube, in particular people who describe how to actually build various energy related technologies from wholesale materials. For example Robert Murray-Smith. I would stay away from tech analysis types who just overhype a particular "cool" technology.
Beyond that is extremely costly (capital, labour, time etc). You could look at solar farms or low profile wind energy installs though (e.g. look at improving the wind-type TENGs).
Beyond that is extremely costly (capital, labour, time etc). You could look at solar farms or low profile wind energy installs though (e.g. look at improving the wind-type TENGs).
>What is the thinnest vertical slice of end-to-end power-generation functionality that an individual would be able deploy and maintain on their own?
None, you'll want to have an accountant and a lawyer and incorporate your business before you begin to approach your states Public Utility Commission.
Your best bet is taking over an existing hydro-dam, but there are VERY good reasons people don't want to own them.
None, you'll want to have an accountant and a lawyer and incorporate your business before you begin to approach your states Public Utility Commission.
Your best bet is taking over an existing hydro-dam, but there are VERY good reasons people don't want to own them.
Buy one that’s already generating. Utilities would love to offload power plants on you. For reasons. Which will probably bankrupt you.
What's the problem you're trying to solve?
It's perfectly fine as an outsider to try to break into an unfamiliar industry, even a mature one. But what is it exactly you want to accomplish?
Electrical power generation is a mature industry. So what's the problem with the industry you think you can fix? What's your idea for something that isn't already being done?
It's perfectly fine as an outsider to try to break into an unfamiliar industry, even a mature one. But what is it exactly you want to accomplish?
Electrical power generation is a mature industry. So what's the problem with the industry you think you can fix? What's your idea for something that isn't already being done?
Buy a lot of solar panel. Buy some Tesla powerwalls.
Get enough amps from / to the grid.
(check out electricity infra. posts made by crypto miners)
https://insideevs.com/news/606725/tesla-powerwall-owners-sel...
Be your own tiny power company.
Get enough amps from / to the grid.
(check out electricity infra. posts made by crypto miners)
https://insideevs.com/news/606725/tesla-powerwall-owners-sel...
Be your own tiny power company.
I would think going off grid might be a first step. Be your own
customer! You would either need to train as an electrician yourself or hire one. Then get solar, batteries, backup generator and so on. Might mean a move to the suburbs or rural so you completely own the land.
If you are in the US, read FERC Order 2222. Seriously.
https://www.ferc.gov/sites/default/files/2020-09/E-1_0.pdf
https://www.ferc.gov/sites/default/files/2020-09/E-1_0.pdf
What about infrastructure around Virtual Plants, with either dedicated Software or Hardware?
Are you planning on bidding on the Puerto Rico generation privatization contract? Because you fit right in with the clowns at Luma Energy.
What does "end to end" mean?
From actual generation all the way to someone consuming the electricity. That’s what I thought in my head, but it looks like that it is not tractable unless it is possible to directly connect to the customer.
Get involved in nuclear fusion. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32620868
become a landlord, buy solar & batteries.
You know what I sunk in on recently? The whole thing about "efficiency" is really "use less copper" which is really "negreate Chile out of its rightful money". And in fact the main uses of copper during the 19th century were telegraphs and copper hulls, and then in the 20th century power lines and telephone lines, electrification and communication. But always, always, these guys wanted to use less and less copper. Like nothing. Substitute for aluminum! Yeah.
So what happened in the late 60's early 70's when OPEC, the copper predecessor of petroleum OPEP, in English called OPEC, was successfully cornering the market on copper. And people went apeshit! Like USG said no more pennies because people were melting down pennies. Melt value it's called in currencies. So that's when they substituted with zinc for the inside of the penny--still a bad deal these days because you still need a layer of copper on the shell of the penny, that's a money loser for USG. Speaking neutrally in this case, USG is a neutral term even the US Embassy to Russia uses on its website. United States Government. Anyway. Like USG can lose some money but they can't blow money especially not in the direction of an antagonistic Marxist democratic winner president. So...the pennies got hollowed out--and again those pennies are worth 5¢ still, bad deal, just not a terrible deal like it was before. Could have been worth a quarter, fucks up the whole system.
There is a system. System doesn't want to talk about there being a system, but there's a system. And it needs integrity, which I like to give it, because when there is no integrity all Hell breaks loose.
So that's one way you could win. Do away with all that flamboyant high-voltage shit and do voltages humans can tolerate, like household voltages, just using a lot more copper. Lots more. Take the USG out of your equation, buy copper, hey it's a precious metal, it's an exotic metal, you're clearly not politically aligned with negreating Chile, Peru, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Arizona, and Mexico right? And copper in your wires is a great investment. Copper hasn't had a bull run in ages. Again, very niggardly buyers who through golps of state (coups d'etat), highly negreated commodity. Very political. In fact for copper wire thickness it's not an optimum to use the thin wires they use out there, it's calculated based on interest rates and metal prices, and then there's the political layer. Get wires as thick as whale-hunting rope, six inches diameter, go for it. More efficient at every voltage, can use lower voltage, less liability insurance, go for it. Electricity can't leak onto more copper.
There's caveats. Although you should also do your own experiments to verify, don't get everything from a single pipe because then you're destined to suck it. That goes for electricity generation as well, you can give people options, maybe jump in during a disaster, when too-efficient (not effective) power generators go offline.
And study up. Be an autodidact if you wish, but be solid. Work through like three books, working out all the exercises, with only minor gaps.
OK so you get one of those books from an Elmer, which is a common baby name in the 1890's I think, meaning an old-timer who's seen all kinds of shit. All kinds. And in addition to all that shit of all kinds, seen a lot of the same shit over and over. In Japan people respect this level of repetition, in America no you gotta be a movie star and always do radically different stuff in a single respectable line of business perpertually...forget the American. So in Japan a sushi apprentice must cook rice for ten years before he gets promoted to a chef. That has worth! You end up knowing the rice so perfectly...every detail, the times, the temps, the water, the purity of the water, tap water or non-effed-up water (F'ing as in F the letter for Fluorine). Like I just tried cooking rice and fucked up hardcore, it burned into the pot, because I didn't know the bottom of the rice had charred while the top was soggy.
So get that Elmer.
And then, read those books. And then you know what why don't you verify experiments, read about Tesla's experiments verify them, there's shit going on there, there's political stuff reaching into the physics, it's not flat physics. Know that a friend whose judgment is ground truth said Newton's physics formulae didn't check out. Like at all.
Maybe we're in a Riemann geometry insofar as the laws of spacetime physics.
But in the meantime, be very very independent, find beauty is simply and solely how little resistance there is to verification.
And start strong, get worn out, struggle to death. Then you'll get a second chance.
So what happened in the late 60's early 70's when OPEC, the copper predecessor of petroleum OPEP, in English called OPEC, was successfully cornering the market on copper. And people went apeshit! Like USG said no more pennies because people were melting down pennies. Melt value it's called in currencies. So that's when they substituted with zinc for the inside of the penny--still a bad deal these days because you still need a layer of copper on the shell of the penny, that's a money loser for USG. Speaking neutrally in this case, USG is a neutral term even the US Embassy to Russia uses on its website. United States Government. Anyway. Like USG can lose some money but they can't blow money especially not in the direction of an antagonistic Marxist democratic winner president. So...the pennies got hollowed out--and again those pennies are worth 5¢ still, bad deal, just not a terrible deal like it was before. Could have been worth a quarter, fucks up the whole system.
There is a system. System doesn't want to talk about there being a system, but there's a system. And it needs integrity, which I like to give it, because when there is no integrity all Hell breaks loose.
So that's one way you could win. Do away with all that flamboyant high-voltage shit and do voltages humans can tolerate, like household voltages, just using a lot more copper. Lots more. Take the USG out of your equation, buy copper, hey it's a precious metal, it's an exotic metal, you're clearly not politically aligned with negreating Chile, Peru, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Arizona, and Mexico right? And copper in your wires is a great investment. Copper hasn't had a bull run in ages. Again, very niggardly buyers who through golps of state (coups d'etat), highly negreated commodity. Very political. In fact for copper wire thickness it's not an optimum to use the thin wires they use out there, it's calculated based on interest rates and metal prices, and then there's the political layer. Get wires as thick as whale-hunting rope, six inches diameter, go for it. More efficient at every voltage, can use lower voltage, less liability insurance, go for it. Electricity can't leak onto more copper.
There's caveats. Although you should also do your own experiments to verify, don't get everything from a single pipe because then you're destined to suck it. That goes for electricity generation as well, you can give people options, maybe jump in during a disaster, when too-efficient (not effective) power generators go offline.
And study up. Be an autodidact if you wish, but be solid. Work through like three books, working out all the exercises, with only minor gaps.
OK so you get one of those books from an Elmer, which is a common baby name in the 1890's I think, meaning an old-timer who's seen all kinds of shit. All kinds. And in addition to all that shit of all kinds, seen a lot of the same shit over and over. In Japan people respect this level of repetition, in America no you gotta be a movie star and always do radically different stuff in a single respectable line of business perpertually...forget the American. So in Japan a sushi apprentice must cook rice for ten years before he gets promoted to a chef. That has worth! You end up knowing the rice so perfectly...every detail, the times, the temps, the water, the purity of the water, tap water or non-effed-up water (F'ing as in F the letter for Fluorine). Like I just tried cooking rice and fucked up hardcore, it burned into the pot, because I didn't know the bottom of the rice had charred while the top was soggy.
So get that Elmer.
And then, read those books. And then you know what why don't you verify experiments, read about Tesla's experiments verify them, there's shit going on there, there's political stuff reaching into the physics, it's not flat physics. Know that a friend whose judgment is ground truth said Newton's physics formulae didn't check out. Like at all.
Maybe we're in a Riemann geometry insofar as the laws of spacetime physics.
But in the meantime, be very very independent, find beauty is simply and solely how little resistance there is to verification.
And start strong, get worn out, struggle to death. Then you'll get a second chance.
benevol(3)
DickTips(2)
1. What is the thinnest vertical slice of end-to-end power-generation functionality that an individual would be able deploy and maintain on their own?
2. What are the names of necessary things that I would need to learn and research?
3. What parts are too easy to dismiss early on, but are likely to bite me later on?