ThinkPad’s 30th Anniversary: An Insider’s Perspective(forbes.com)
forbes.com
ThinkPad’s 30th Anniversary: An Insider’s Perspective
https://www.forbes.com/sites/timbajarin/2022/10/05/celebrating-thinkpads-30th-anniversaryan-insiders-perspective/
163 comments
When I actually do a typing test of speed and accuracy, the only keyboards I do badly on are small keyboards for <12" devices, and long travel keyboards (As in desktop mechanical keyboards). I've been hearing about how essential long travel is for so long, I've owned an old Thinkpad, I've owned a new Thinkpad, and I'm not sure what it is about travel that makes a better keyboard if it doesn't decrease errors or increase speed. In fact since it takes longer to bottom out and register an input, one could make an argument high travel was a downside, but I don't see this reflected in the measurements I've taken of myself.
Losing 2 discrete ram slots sucks, but honestly the lack of expandability is far more of a downside than the lack of reparability. I always save a few bucks by buying memory aftermarket where I can, so for me a computer with discrete ram slots is just a cheaper computer. The swap to USB-C was fantastic, it made chargers which previously cost more than a hundred dollars a commodity and lowered prices and improved reusability, I've saved LOTS of money off that standardisation.
I think the most infuriating modern trend to me is actually is soldering the SSD thus leaving a computers data hostage to a failure elsewhere in the computer. A computers data and the rest of the computer should be separable. Thankfully it doesn't seem Lenovo is soldering the SSD yet.
Losing 2 discrete ram slots sucks, but honestly the lack of expandability is far more of a downside than the lack of reparability. I always save a few bucks by buying memory aftermarket where I can, so for me a computer with discrete ram slots is just a cheaper computer. The swap to USB-C was fantastic, it made chargers which previously cost more than a hundred dollars a commodity and lowered prices and improved reusability, I've saved LOTS of money off that standardisation.
I think the most infuriating modern trend to me is actually is soldering the SSD thus leaving a computers data hostage to a failure elsewhere in the computer. A computers data and the rest of the computer should be separable. Thankfully it doesn't seem Lenovo is soldering the SSD yet.
> I don't understand why Lenovo doesn't add an extra 1 mm to the thickness of their laptops, at least it would restore the reputation for typing feel on ThinkPads.
Because, after years of advertising made by designers and not by technical people, for most potential buyers more thin = more modern so to remain in the game they have to adapt to the most idiotic trend today: make devices thin as credit cards no matter how this would impact their usability, battery life, robustness, repairability etc.
Because, after years of advertising made by designers and not by technical people, for most potential buyers more thin = more modern so to remain in the game they have to adapt to the most idiotic trend today: make devices thin as credit cards no matter how this would impact their usability, battery life, robustness, repairability etc.
Wanting thinner and lighter devices isn't some sort of weird desire only non-technical people want. Computers have gradually miniaturized from something that fits in a warehouse to something that fits into a room in your office into something that fits on people's desks into something that fits in your pocket. And subsequently, the skills required to repair said devices ends up changing. I won't say it's easier or harder, though I would say through-hole components are much easier to swap out than SMDs. Yet I don't really see you complaining about that.
So no, striving for thinness is not idiotic. It follows the same principles of miniaturization of all components in PCs. It also changes the skillset required to work on the devices, but that's not really all that problematic.
> the most idiotic trend today: make devices thin as credit cards no matter how this would impact their usability, battery life, robustness, repairability etc.
They're not, though. Laptops are by definition a compromise product. You compromise on various things to afford yourself more portability. If you want a laptop that's easier to repair, they have those. You want something with more power? They have those too, but it's going to be less portable and have less battery life.
Your real complaint is that they don't make a Thinkpad that matches your own set of acceptable compromises and tradeoffs in a portable device. That's totally valid but has nothing to do with your asinine complaints about thinness.
So no, striving for thinness is not idiotic. It follows the same principles of miniaturization of all components in PCs. It also changes the skillset required to work on the devices, but that's not really all that problematic.
> the most idiotic trend today: make devices thin as credit cards no matter how this would impact their usability, battery life, robustness, repairability etc.
They're not, though. Laptops are by definition a compromise product. You compromise on various things to afford yourself more portability. If you want a laptop that's easier to repair, they have those. You want something with more power? They have those too, but it's going to be less portable and have less battery life.
Your real complaint is that they don't make a Thinkpad that matches your own set of acceptable compromises and tradeoffs in a portable device. That's totally valid but has nothing to do with your asinine complaints about thinness.
Today thinnest laptops are much more than just miniaturization. It reminds me the time when Motorola issued a thinner and thinner razr models just because they didn't have any other innovative idea than "thin".
The moment that all the brands started focusing only on who is the thinnest instead of who has more features that's the point that they just ran out of innovative ideas.
Batteries are like car tires, they are expected to need replacing. Why can't I replace them myself and instead have to send the laptop to the lab? Why can't I decide which brand of batteries I want just like in my car? Maybe I want more powerful batteries or maybe I want lighter batteries.
Another issue is that the unrepairabilty of these laptops harms the environment a lot. Lenovo sells now laptops with 8GB and maybe it's acceptable for some uses. But in a year or two, these laptops will have to be thrown to trash cause you can't upgrade the memory in any way. As many mentioned here they have fully working laptops for 5 or even 10 years and that's laptops that saved from the need to buy new ones.
The moment that all the brands started focusing only on who is the thinnest instead of who has more features that's the point that they just ran out of innovative ideas.
Batteries are like car tires, they are expected to need replacing. Why can't I replace them myself and instead have to send the laptop to the lab? Why can't I decide which brand of batteries I want just like in my car? Maybe I want more powerful batteries or maybe I want lighter batteries.
Another issue is that the unrepairabilty of these laptops harms the environment a lot. Lenovo sells now laptops with 8GB and maybe it's acceptable for some uses. But in a year or two, these laptops will have to be thrown to trash cause you can't upgrade the memory in any way. As many mentioned here they have fully working laptops for 5 or even 10 years and that's laptops that saved from the need to buy new ones.
> Today thinnest laptops are much more than just miniaturization.
So what? The market can bear having more than one kind of laptop and so exists many different kinds of laptops that come in all sorts of different shapes and sizes.
> The moment that all the brands started focusing only on who is the thinnest instead of who has more features that's the point that they just ran out of innovative ideas.
Except even if one brand focused only on that, there'd still be many others that did not.
> Batteries are like car tires, they are expected to need replacing. Why can't I replace them myself and instead have to send the laptop to the lab?
No laptop requires you sending it to a lab to replace your battery.
> Why can't I decide which brand of batteries I want just like in my car?
You mostly can. There's a whole lot of cheap replacement batteries you can buy for most laptop models.
> Maybe I want more powerful batteries or maybe I want lighter batteries.
In most cases this isn't really possible because of either 1) low market demand or 2) it's literally impossible to do so without modifying the chassis. A few thinkpads used to have this feature with a hot-swappable external battery that you could choose the capacity, though. You can still buy a T480 on ebay and go this route if you want.
> Another issue is that the unrepairabilty of these laptops harms the environment a lot.
I see this argument made a lot but I find it to be mostly made in bad faith. Most people use their laptop until it's not useful to them anymore and then get rid of it in some manner — selling it to someone else, handing it down to relatives, recycling it, and sometimes throwing it away.
> Lenovo sells now laptops with 8GB and maybe it's acceptable for some uses. But in a year or two, these laptops will have to be thrown to trash cause you can't upgrade the memory in any way.
People have been making that argument for at least 8 years now that 8gb wasn't going to be enough in a year or two, and yet it's still serviceable to plenty of people today. It's about as likely as the CPU that is soldered onto every laptop now (even the framework laptop) will stop being useful. Raspberry pis are at max sold with 8gb of RAM, are you really going to try and suggest that they won't be useful two year from now?
> As many mentioned here they have fully working laptops for 5 or even 10 years and that's laptops that saved from the need to buy new ones.
My 2013 Macbook Pro was working when I traded it into Apple to get a new laptop. I got a new laptop because I wanted something with more power, not because it strictly needed to be replaced. People that are able to will replace their laptop when they feel they need to and that threshold is different depending on the person. Throwing an ssd into an old laptop will only go so far.
So what? The market can bear having more than one kind of laptop and so exists many different kinds of laptops that come in all sorts of different shapes and sizes.
> The moment that all the brands started focusing only on who is the thinnest instead of who has more features that's the point that they just ran out of innovative ideas.
Except even if one brand focused only on that, there'd still be many others that did not.
> Batteries are like car tires, they are expected to need replacing. Why can't I replace them myself and instead have to send the laptop to the lab?
No laptop requires you sending it to a lab to replace your battery.
> Why can't I decide which brand of batteries I want just like in my car?
You mostly can. There's a whole lot of cheap replacement batteries you can buy for most laptop models.
> Maybe I want more powerful batteries or maybe I want lighter batteries.
In most cases this isn't really possible because of either 1) low market demand or 2) it's literally impossible to do so without modifying the chassis. A few thinkpads used to have this feature with a hot-swappable external battery that you could choose the capacity, though. You can still buy a T480 on ebay and go this route if you want.
> Another issue is that the unrepairabilty of these laptops harms the environment a lot.
I see this argument made a lot but I find it to be mostly made in bad faith. Most people use their laptop until it's not useful to them anymore and then get rid of it in some manner — selling it to someone else, handing it down to relatives, recycling it, and sometimes throwing it away.
> Lenovo sells now laptops with 8GB and maybe it's acceptable for some uses. But in a year or two, these laptops will have to be thrown to trash cause you can't upgrade the memory in any way.
People have been making that argument for at least 8 years now that 8gb wasn't going to be enough in a year or two, and yet it's still serviceable to plenty of people today. It's about as likely as the CPU that is soldered onto every laptop now (even the framework laptop) will stop being useful. Raspberry pis are at max sold with 8gb of RAM, are you really going to try and suggest that they won't be useful two year from now?
> As many mentioned here they have fully working laptops for 5 or even 10 years and that's laptops that saved from the need to buy new ones.
My 2013 Macbook Pro was working when I traded it into Apple to get a new laptop. I got a new laptop because I wanted something with more power, not because it strictly needed to be replaced. People that are able to will replace their laptop when they feel they need to and that threshold is different depending on the person. Throwing an ssd into an old laptop will only go so far.
If the keyboard was so thin as to be unusable, people would stop ordering them. Yes the T14s has less travel but for me, it is just as nice to type on as the X220.
I can't speak for the X series though, those are made to go as thin as possible, at a cost to battery life, reliability and CPU power.
I can't speak for the X series though, those are made to go as thin as possible, at a cost to battery life, reliability and CPU power.
I don't think that's true anymore since apple is reversing that trend with their new iphones being their thickest ever. The latest stupid trend seems to be to treat a device as a camera with smart features attached.
I fail to see how this is a stupid trend. Most people want to have a camera on their person always and smartphones are that camera. They've completely killed off the point and shoot market and mostly the camcorder market as well. Seeing genuine improvement on what is a family's camera year over year is welcome.
It comes at the cost of the rest of the phone. The latest pro max whatever camera bump is huge. Especially as this comes after a decade of thinner phones being the ultimate goal of designers.
The camera is why I, and many others, buy a new iphone. So it makes sense I guess /shrug.
all they gotta do is make an ad like this:
person sits down at new thinkpad laptop
"It's so... thicc"
Narrator: we added an extra millimeter...
starts clacking on the keys and makes an O-face
*...for your pleasure."
the market is absolutely out there, zoomers love their mechanical keyboards.
person sits down at new thinkpad laptop
"It's so... thicc"
Narrator: we added an extra millimeter...
starts clacking on the keys and makes an O-face
*...for your pleasure."
the market is absolutely out there, zoomers love their mechanical keyboards.
One marketing campaign can change it in no time. Maybe not for the entire industry but certainly for Lenovo.
I've had enough of these impossible beauty standards.
I'd take a smart phone that's 3x as thick (thicc) if it had 3x the battery life, but I currently settle for a case that's also a battery.
When my T420 finally dies (if that's even possible), I'm hoping the Framework laptop is chunky enough to take its place
I'd take a smart phone that's 3x as thick (thicc) if it had 3x the battery life, but I currently settle for a case that's also a battery.
When my T420 finally dies (if that's even possible), I'm hoping the Framework laptop is chunky enough to take its place
I have found that it is often dust in the port that makes them feel loose. Cleaning them with a little brush (like the ones that come with an electric shaver) made a lot of difference for me.
The port on my phone started to feel loose to the point where charging became an issue. The dust and lint was compressed so much that nothing short of a steel needle helped.
You can get a small magnetic adapter that plugs into the port, then a corresponding charging lead with a magnet on the end connects to that. This is easier to plug in while not looking (e.g. driving) and has the side effect that the port doesn't fill up with lint since it has the magnetic plug thing in it all the time.
> they've gone from 2.5 mm in the T420 (2011) to 1.5 mm in the T14 G3 (2022). 1 mm doesn't sound like on paper, but you immediately notice the difference if you switch between them
Absolutely correct. For context, typical Cherry MX mechanical keyboard switches have a total travel around 4mm. We’re very sensitive to switch height.
Absolutely correct. For context, typical Cherry MX mechanical keyboard switches have a total travel around 4mm. We’re very sensitive to switch height.
Mechanical keyboard types presumably can't use any laptop keyboard without feeling ill and needing to lie down for a while. The Thinkpad keyboard provides a great typing experience for 99% of people.
Not sure what prompted that kind of snide response. I think most ThinkPad keyboards are lovely to use. All I pointed out is that millimetres and fractions of millimetres are very easy to detect and that the travel difference between the most fancy mechanical switch and even the maligned butterfly switch is only about 3mm. That is to say that travel distance is not the most important metric in what makes a keyboard nice or unpleasant to use.
It was snide, I apologise. I just found it weird to compare laptop keyboards to mechanical switches since they're never going to be in the same ballpark.
Why not?
Why not laptops with mechanical keyboards again? It was basically 100% of laptops from the 1990s for a decade or two.
Is choice a bad thing? We can choose OS, we can choose editors and desktops and so on... but if you want a portable computer with 1cm of key travel and a click: well, it sucks to be you, so GTFO and STFU.
I detest chiclet keyboards. At some point soon all my decade-old Thinkpads will wear out and everything newer, including Thinkpads, is nasty thin-and-light plastic junk.
To quote my favourite Tumblr post ever:
https://canadiangold.tumblr.com/post/675666527469568000/i-do...
« I don’t WANT my laptop to be the Thinnest Model Yet
I want a battery that will outlast the sun, a screen big enough to blind the person behind me, more USB slots than there are apple fanboys in the bay area, a fucking disc reader/writer.
[...]
I will pay extra for it to be heavy enough to bludgeon someone to death. »
Even the optical drive is negotiable, TBH. But the drive bay would be handy. Give me both SATA and NVMe for a honking great spinning disk.
Why not laptops with mechanical keyboards again? It was basically 100% of laptops from the 1990s for a decade or two.
Is choice a bad thing? We can choose OS, we can choose editors and desktops and so on... but if you want a portable computer with 1cm of key travel and a click: well, it sucks to be you, so GTFO and STFU.
I detest chiclet keyboards. At some point soon all my decade-old Thinkpads will wear out and everything newer, including Thinkpads, is nasty thin-and-light plastic junk.
To quote my favourite Tumblr post ever:
https://canadiangold.tumblr.com/post/675666527469568000/i-do...
« I don’t WANT my laptop to be the Thinnest Model Yet
I want a battery that will outlast the sun, a screen big enough to blind the person behind me, more USB slots than there are apple fanboys in the bay area, a fucking disc reader/writer.
[...]
I will pay extra for it to be heavy enough to bludgeon someone to death. »
Even the optical drive is negotiable, TBH. But the drive bay would be handy. Give me both SATA and NVMe for a honking great spinning disk.
I agree with you on most of those points. For keyboard though, by the time you shove a 1cm-high keybed in there, you may as well just carry a thin laptop and a keyboard together connected with USB.
Yeah, no.
Look at this story:
https://www.theregister.com/2022/10/04/you_cannot_buy_softwa...
Rewritten 10 days ago on an intercity coach on a 2009 Thinkpad X220. On its original battery which lasted for the whole trip.
Look at this story:
https://www.theregister.com/2022/10/05/rust_kernel_pull_requ...
Written entirely on a Gemini PDA waiting in a visa biometric testing office.
Neither of those are viable places to use an external keyboard.
This is not some kind of fantasy hardware. Kit like this was the norm in the 1990s -- full height full travel mechanical keyboards in BUDGET model laptops from good brands -- and it was still doable in Core i7 kit sold in the first decade of this century.
Keyboards matter. They are important.
Look at any "gamer's keyboard" from the mass market. Full size, full travel, mechanical switches, even backlit.
Gamers won't put up with the crappy slimline things that Apple sold and the rest of the PC industry copied, badly.
It's only weirdo editor fans who popularise these ridiculously tiny things that don't even have cursor keys. To h3ll with that absurdist obsessive rubbish.
Full size, full travel, or GTFO. It's not some weird made up thing; we had this stuff just 10-12 years ago, but the marketing lizards foisted ultraslim junk on us and we swallowed the kool-aid and now everyone thinks laptops were always like this.
Even maintainable ones like the Framework.
Look at this story:
https://www.theregister.com/2022/10/04/you_cannot_buy_softwa...
Rewritten 10 days ago on an intercity coach on a 2009 Thinkpad X220. On its original battery which lasted for the whole trip.
Look at this story:
https://www.theregister.com/2022/10/05/rust_kernel_pull_requ...
Written entirely on a Gemini PDA waiting in a visa biometric testing office.
Neither of those are viable places to use an external keyboard.
This is not some kind of fantasy hardware. Kit like this was the norm in the 1990s -- full height full travel mechanical keyboards in BUDGET model laptops from good brands -- and it was still doable in Core i7 kit sold in the first decade of this century.
Keyboards matter. They are important.
Look at any "gamer's keyboard" from the mass market. Full size, full travel, mechanical switches, even backlit.
Gamers won't put up with the crappy slimline things that Apple sold and the rest of the PC industry copied, badly.
It's only weirdo editor fans who popularise these ridiculously tiny things that don't even have cursor keys. To h3ll with that absurdist obsessive rubbish.
Full size, full travel, or GTFO. It's not some weird made up thing; we had this stuff just 10-12 years ago, but the marketing lizards foisted ultraslim junk on us and we swallowed the kool-aid and now everyone thinks laptops were always like this.
Even maintainable ones like the Framework.
As longtme Lenovo user I sometimes wonder if they are designing for users or for corporate buyers.
I'm currently typing this from my T450s. My perspective:
I love the chiclets. They did a good job. The keys are perfectly shaped to reduce accidental presses.
> I don't understand why Lenovo doesn't add an extra 1 mm to the thickness of their laptops
Because they are already market leaders on key travel. Why aim for perfection when you are already ahead of everyone else.
I agree that I don't like the direction they are heading towards USB0-C and non removeable batteries, but at least for the mid-model years I think they did a good job balancing which components were replaceable.
I love the chiclets. They did a good job. The keys are perfectly shaped to reduce accidental presses.
> I don't understand why Lenovo doesn't add an extra 1 mm to the thickness of their laptops
Because they are already market leaders on key travel. Why aim for perfection when you are already ahead of everyone else.
I agree that I don't like the direction they are heading towards USB0-C and non removeable batteries, but at least for the mid-model years I think they did a good job balancing which components were replaceable.
Have an gen1 x13 AMD running Pop OS! which is supported well in the latest kernels (early on there were issues with sound). Its a great machine to develop on with no hardware problems yet, although I'm only at the 2.5 year mark.
I think I may have been the first unofficial Thinkpad laptop repair person.
When the Thinkpad 700 came out, I was working for IBM managing the PC side of a regional repair center in SE Michigan. About a month or so before their official release, several IBM exec's had production units, and a few of them were already being dropped or broken. It started with a unit in my region, which I was able to repair, and then word got out that there was an internal employee who could fix these things, and other units started showing up to my attention via FedEx and intercompany mail. One or two via private plane (in those days we had private planes and pilots on call to make high priority parts runs for certain national customers with IBM service contracts).
At the time, the Thinkpad 700 was considered to be a crazy dense and delicate machine to most of the repair guys. Now, you compare it to a modern laptop and it looks absolutely trivial to take it apart.
At the time, the Thinkpad 700 was considered to be a crazy dense and delicate machine to most of the repair guys. Now, you compare it to a modern laptop and it looks absolutely trivial to take it apart.
In the mid-1990s, I bought a used IBM ThinkPad 701 in Hong Kong. Ten years before "netbooks," this wonderful little laptop had a very unique approach to compact size: A "butterfly" keyboard that unfolded when you opened the laptop. There are some photos and historical information about the 701 here:
http://renaissancechambara.jp/2012/04/26/ibm-thinkpad-701/
Supposedly, the design was inspired by a black bento box. Although primitive by today's standards, it was a solid little laptop that served me well for the tasks I was engaged in at the time -- writing, Web surfing, learning HTML, and playing Doom.
In the late 1990s, I had a house fire. No one was injured, but the butterfly ThinkPad was burned, the exterior case charred and partially melted. There was data on it that I wanted, including a manuscript. I brought it to the local IBM repair center in Taipei. Two young techs were at the service desk, and hardly battered an eye when I took it out of a plastic bag. They got a small electric saw, cut open the case, removed the keyboard, and took out the HD which looked intact. They attempted to connect it to their diagnostic machine but it wouldn't read, unfortunately. But I really respected their attempt.
http://renaissancechambara.jp/2012/04/26/ibm-thinkpad-701/
Supposedly, the design was inspired by a black bento box. Although primitive by today's standards, it was a solid little laptop that served me well for the tasks I was engaged in at the time -- writing, Web surfing, learning HTML, and playing Doom.
In the late 1990s, I had a house fire. No one was injured, but the butterfly ThinkPad was burned, the exterior case charred and partially melted. There was data on it that I wanted, including a manuscript. I brought it to the local IBM repair center in Taipei. Two young techs were at the service desk, and hardly battered an eye when I took it out of a plastic bag. They got a small electric saw, cut open the case, removed the keyboard, and took out the HD which looked intact. They attempted to connect it to their diagnostic machine but it wouldn't read, unfortunately. But I really respected their attempt.
I’ve been a bit of a Thinkpad fanatic ever since my dad got a T42p somewhere in 2004. I have been on Thinkpads since 2006. I bought old ones on eBay and now have a collection of about 15 machines. The 700c, two butterfly keyboard 701cs, the 240 and a lot more. I’m currently on a T495s.
From my experience I can say that the “old IBM machines were reliable and well constructed” is not true. They were bulky and over time, everything breaks. Especially the heavy stuff as bulky things take so much more wear & tear. The newer machines are much thinner and lighter and still very good. At least the T and X lines. I exclusively buy Thinkpads for my team and have been very happy with them.
The only thing I really miss is the thinklight. Not super useful, but it was just so cool.
Edit: I always buy barely used machines of about 2 years old, this seems to be the most cost effective.
From my experience I can say that the “old IBM machines were reliable and well constructed” is not true. They were bulky and over time, everything breaks. Especially the heavy stuff as bulky things take so much more wear & tear. The newer machines are much thinner and lighter and still very good. At least the T and X lines. I exclusively buy Thinkpads for my team and have been very happy with them.
The only thing I really miss is the thinklight. Not super useful, but it was just so cool.
Edit: I always buy barely used machines of about 2 years old, this seems to be the most cost effective.
My nostalgia for the ThinkLight is not for the light itself, which was all but useless, but for a past where there were things outside your computer that you might want to read. Now everything is behind the screen.
I actually miss the thinklight. I used it a ton on my units that came with it. It was very useful imo
I used the thinklight a lot in college when I'd want to do homework in bed with the lights down low. You could both read papers and see your keyboard easily. The backlit keyboard really killed off the thinklight as I'm sure that was the primary purpose of it. I had an X61 tablet, X200 tablet, and a beefy T420 I used in college. They all got beat up in my backpack, anything plastic around the edges was cracked but they all performed dutifully. I only replaced my X61 because I finally had to use 64bit software for school. The T420 was too heavy to carry around all day and I wanted the tablet feature for homework so I bought the used X61. I still use my decade old T420 but I really wish I had sprung for the high density display as websites think I'm using a mobile device at 1366x768. There are ways to upgrade but I don't think I love my old Thinkpad that much to put in the effort.
Screen replacement isn't very difficult for that model even as an amateur tinkerer. Finding the right screen is the most difficult bit. (Briefly, in the *30 era, one could have both ThinkLight and backlit keyboard.)
The T42p is one of the best laptops ever made (in my opinion).
I saved for months and bought one using a friend's IBM employee discount.
I remember thinking that I wouldn't need to ever buy another laptop again.
I still have it and it works fine. I wrote this on it.
Edit: and there is another java update!!
I saved for months and bought one using a friend's IBM employee discount.
I remember thinking that I wouldn't need to ever buy another laptop again.
I still have it and it works fine. I wrote this on it.
Edit: and there is another java update!!
What operating system are you running, if I may ask?
"Everything breaks", but my X220 is readily repairable. It's a veritable Laptop of Theseus at this point, with the only original parts being the LCD rear cover, hinges, and base cover assembly.
I stick with it, both because I dislike modern ultra-thin/ultralight laptops (, and because I personally find chicklet keyboards completely unusable. (Aftermarket replacements for the keyboard aren't as good as originals, but they're still better than chicklets.)
I stick with it, both because I dislike modern ultra-thin/ultralight laptops (, and because I personally find chicklet keyboards completely unusable. (Aftermarket replacements for the keyboard aren't as good as originals, but they're still better than chicklets.)
Haha, I did not include the X220. It's great. With the bulky stuff I meant the real IBM ThinkPads from before 2005. Although 2000-2005 was pretty good too, before that most machines were still really heavy.
> From my experience I can say that the “old IBM machines were reliable and well constructed” is not true. They were bulky and over time, everything breaks.
Too right. I know the T40 series Thinkpads quite well (the 2004-5 era) and they're not very robust at all. Pick one up from the front edge and it'll just bend - the edges of the palm rest crack first, then the traces lift from the motherboard and the USB ports stop working. Back then it was common knowledge that you shouldn't pick up a laptop from the front edge. Nowadays that's no big deal.
The T60 series (2006-7) hugely improved chassis rigidity but lost out in keyboard quality and were noisier and a bit chunkier in profile. Both series were fantastic laptops and are still delightful to use, but they had obvious limitations and the changes made by Lenovo since then are not all unreasonable.
Too right. I know the T40 series Thinkpads quite well (the 2004-5 era) and they're not very robust at all. Pick one up from the front edge and it'll just bend - the edges of the palm rest crack first, then the traces lift from the motherboard and the USB ports stop working. Back then it was common knowledge that you shouldn't pick up a laptop from the front edge. Nowadays that's no big deal.
The T60 series (2006-7) hugely improved chassis rigidity but lost out in keyboard quality and were noisier and a bit chunkier in profile. Both series were fantastic laptops and are still delightful to use, but they had obvious limitations and the changes made by Lenovo since then are not all unreasonable.
I can't remember if it was a T40 or T60 series, but I regularly picked it up from the edge, and this popped some solder joints loose on a BGA-monuted GPU. The board sort of still worked, but the problem kept getting worse, and I had to replace the board.
Same experience. The old ones made creaky noises when held with one hand. My latest is a X1 Carbon and it's a much better machine. Zero nostalgia from me.
Separate mouse buttons are such a better experience than a clickpad, though. It's enough I always 3D-print some button overlays for my laptops.
Are your designs available somewhere?
Sure. Here's the one sized for my laptop, but you'd need to dial in the corner radius so it matches your clickpad, the width so it stops at the halfway point, and the thickness so it doesn't put pressure on your screen when it's closed.
https://www.tinkercad.com/things/9igWZfgh07J
https://preview.redd.it/dnvcnv8f6mi81.jpg?width=4032&format=...
https://www.tinkercad.com/things/9igWZfgh07J
https://preview.redd.it/dnvcnv8f6mi81.jpg?width=4032&format=...
Idk, the Thinkpad design itself gets in the way of longevity IME: the extra touchpad buttons collect dust much faster than Apple-style bodies without unnecessary apertures and then start to hang, not to mention they're smaller and much worse than both XPS let alone Apple ones.
It's interesting how the ThinkPads used to be the tech person's™ laptop of choice because of their repairability and extendability, but nowadays most tech people (at least in the professional setting) are using Apple's MacBooks which are the opposite when it comes to repairability and extendability.
Sounds like the demographic of "tech person" changed. It used to be mostly hardliners back in the days of the thinkpad, but now it's filled with moderates who don't really feel too strongly about repairability and extendability.
I was around in the heyday of the ThinkPad, and this is (mostly) backward.
It was always the standard kit of the stereotypical scruffy Linux hacker, but it was mostly just a really good laptop. The connoisseur's choice, reliable, repairable, and IBM would come to you and fix it on the desk if you paid them.
A lot of that demographic have switched to MacBooks or one of the many ultrabook-type laptops of a similar design language, and what's left is the crew who valued the ability to hack on the machine.
They were always there, but they're most of what's left.
It was always the standard kit of the stereotypical scruffy Linux hacker, but it was mostly just a really good laptop. The connoisseur's choice, reliable, repairable, and IBM would come to you and fix it on the desk if you paid them.
A lot of that demographic have switched to MacBooks or one of the many ultrabook-type laptops of a similar design language, and what's left is the crew who valued the ability to hack on the machine.
They were always there, but they're most of what's left.
It was always the standard kit of the stereotypical scruffy Linux hacker
I consider the likelihood of needing to repair or extend it within a 6 year lifetime, and I believe the Macbook has by far the best reputation in that regard.
Bing: Macbook Butterfly Keyboard Failure.
In reality, modern Macbooks have a horrible reputation for repairability and engage in dark patterns to stop you from getting your device repaired even when it is an option.
In reality, modern Macbooks have a horrible reputation for repairability and engage in dark patterns to stop you from getting your device repaired even when it is an option.
Counter-point. The company I work for has about 50/50 Macbooks vs Lenovo. We have about 1000 staff, and I've seen similar rates in a company with 5000 staff.
Macbooks
* 2% fail in first 12 months
* 20% need replacing in 3 years
Lenovo:
* 20% fail in first 12 months. (Surprisingly high number fail out of the box)
* 80% need replacing within 3 years
I don't want a laptop that's easy to repair as much as a laptop that doesn't need repairing.
Macbooks
* 2% fail in first 12 months
* 20% need replacing in 3 years
Lenovo:
* 20% fail in first 12 months. (Surprisingly high number fail out of the box)
* 80% need replacing within 3 years
I don't want a laptop that's easy to repair as much as a laptop that doesn't need repairing.
I'm not sure "repairability" was the real reason thinkpads were popular. They were clearly better on a lot of criteria, at the time. I think the competition simply caught up, and the Thinkpad line simply doesn't have as much to distinguish it from the pack now.
As a "tech person" who did a lot of travelling in the late 90s / early 00s, the Thinkpad T series was the workhorse not only because of the repairability (corporate IT teams could easily maintain them) but as an end user, I loved the Thinkpad due to its durability. They were built very well- mine took a lot of abuse while being shoved under airline seats and being bounced around in luggage, having an occasional coffee spilled on them, etc.
Other laptops of the time were absolutely flimsy: Dells, and HP laptops of the time were particularly cheap-feeling, had hinges that broke, had driver issues, and overall didn't have the high quality feel of the T series.
My company has recently transitioned away from the T series to a different brand, but I'm holding on to my T480 until it dies or I quit.
Other laptops of the time were absolutely flimsy: Dells, and HP laptops of the time were particularly cheap-feeling, had hinges that broke, had driver issues, and overall didn't have the high quality feel of the T series.
My company has recently transitioned away from the T series to a different brand, but I'm holding on to my T480 until it dies or I quit.
> I loved the Thinkpad due to its durability.
Typing this on a T480 which 2 years ago, I accidentally dropped, while open, screen-first onto concrete from height of about 6 feet. There's a little dent in the bezel, but that's it. Still going strong.
I am peeved about the USB-c port not being a replaceable module though. I can still charge through the Thunderbolt/Dock port, but the other one no longer accepts a charge from any cable/brick combo I've tried.
Typing this on a T480 which 2 years ago, I accidentally dropped, while open, screen-first onto concrete from height of about 6 feet. There's a little dent in the bezel, but that's it. Still going strong.
I am peeved about the USB-c port not being a replaceable module though. I can still charge through the Thunderbolt/Dock port, but the other one no longer accepts a charge from any cable/brick combo I've tried.
Sadly the high speeds required for many things that people now use USB for make simple connectors or wires infeasible inside a compact machine. Can't push gigabits over anything cheap and compact.
Modern ThinkPads are unfortunately also not very repairable. Replacing the USB-C port on the X1 Carbon is a 1 hour Job. The RAM is soldered on. Replacing the keyboard requires disassembling everything. Replacement parts are prohibitively expensive because Lenovo keeps the prices high. It's still better than Apple though.
I think it's simply that the advantages of either of those features have become less compelling.
No one actually wants to repair their computer, although it's nice in the abstract for repair to be easy when it's necessary. I value reliability quite a bit, which is why I was unwilling to buy a second laptop with butterfly switches, lucky for me Apple didn't force me to make a hard decision. I also value being able to bring a broken machine to trained professionals, with the expectation that they'll repair it.
Fixing a broken laptop interests me about as much as fixing a broken toaster oven.
Extendability was valuable when RAM and hard drives got cheaper faster than CPUs. It's still frugal, at least, to get just a little of each, and pay market rate for the upgrade, rather than the Apple rate.
This is something I've also stopped caring about. It's just easier to get the machine I expect to need up front. When I want more machine, used MacBooks have a robust market, so I get a new one and sell the old one.
I enjoy soldering and wiring up little hacker machines, though I'm not good at it, but that's a hobby. It's emphatically not something I want to do in order to resume my professional work.
There's still a whole swathe of ThinkPad users who like the interface, use 'exotic' ports, are maintaining old motherboards which work fine for them, more power to them. It's not surprising to see normal coders using a machine that just gets out of the way.
No one actually wants to repair their computer, although it's nice in the abstract for repair to be easy when it's necessary. I value reliability quite a bit, which is why I was unwilling to buy a second laptop with butterfly switches, lucky for me Apple didn't force me to make a hard decision. I also value being able to bring a broken machine to trained professionals, with the expectation that they'll repair it.
Fixing a broken laptop interests me about as much as fixing a broken toaster oven.
Extendability was valuable when RAM and hard drives got cheaper faster than CPUs. It's still frugal, at least, to get just a little of each, and pay market rate for the upgrade, rather than the Apple rate.
This is something I've also stopped caring about. It's just easier to get the machine I expect to need up front. When I want more machine, used MacBooks have a robust market, so I get a new one and sell the old one.
I enjoy soldering and wiring up little hacker machines, though I'm not good at it, but that's a hobby. It's emphatically not something I want to do in order to resume my professional work.
There's still a whole swathe of ThinkPad users who like the interface, use 'exotic' ports, are maintaining old motherboards which work fine for them, more power to them. It's not surprising to see normal coders using a machine that just gets out of the way.
>Extendability was valuable when RAM and hard drives got cheaper faster than CPUs
As someone who runs local VMs on Windows, this is still true. I would like 32GB RAM and 1-2TB SSD storage locally.
>It's not surprising to see normal coders using a machine that just gets out of the way.
Tinkpads still do this? My first is my work machine, a T490s about 2 years old? I haven't done anything to the hardware itself. No repairs or opening up needed.
As someone who runs local VMs on Windows, this is still true. I would like 32GB RAM and 1-2TB SSD storage locally.
>It's not surprising to see normal coders using a machine that just gets out of the way.
Tinkpads still do this? My first is my work machine, a T490s about 2 years old? I haven't done anything to the hardware itself. No repairs or opening up needed.
Fortunately, we don't need to explain why no one is buying ThinkPads, because people still are. My laptop is specced at 64GB and 4TB, fwiw.
I'm content with explaining why they aren't as popular, since they so clearly remain a good choice for a smaller group of developers. I don't know anyone using a ThinkPad who isn't enthusiastic about it.
I'm content with explaining why they aren't as popular, since they so clearly remain a good choice for a smaller group of developers. I don't know anyone using a ThinkPad who isn't enthusiastic about it.
That’s likely more a function of the OS’ “It Just Works” factor than the hardware, and Apple’s grasp upon that factor is increasingly fragmenting and growing more tenuous because mobile form factor products and profits have taken leadership focus off of the overall product ecosystem experience.
The ascendancy of Macs in technical staff ranks commenced simultaneously with the ascendancy of Linux in the datacenter. The Windows tooling to integrate with Linux wasn’t as smooth as Macs. Back in the Dark Ages, about half of the battle IMHO came down to Cygwin and similar weren’t as nice as Terminal.app and Homebrew. And Terminal.app was a better ssh client than PuTTY. Back then if your backend heavy iron lived on Linux, then the overall development experience was simply lower friction on a MacBook Pro.
This has changed these days, of course. macOS’ low-friction edge is narrower now but a lot of what remains like mobile power and video management continues as especially challenging areas for Windows and Linux. VS Code is doing a lot to decouple developers from their hardware.
The ascendancy of Macs in technical staff ranks commenced simultaneously with the ascendancy of Linux in the datacenter. The Windows tooling to integrate with Linux wasn’t as smooth as Macs. Back in the Dark Ages, about half of the battle IMHO came down to Cygwin and similar weren’t as nice as Terminal.app and Homebrew. And Terminal.app was a better ssh client than PuTTY. Back then if your backend heavy iron lived on Linux, then the overall development experience was simply lower friction on a MacBook Pro.
This has changed these days, of course. macOS’ low-friction edge is narrower now but a lot of what remains like mobile power and video management continues as especially challenging areas for Windows and Linux. VS Code is doing a lot to decouple developers from their hardware.
> That’s likely more a function of the OS’ “It Just Works” factor than the hardware...
That is exactly my observation. When the good power Mac laptops came out a lot of my ThinkPad Linux laptop using co-workers jumped ship. Number one reason stated: battery life. Number two reason stated: suspend works reliably. Number three: it is POSIX/UNIX-ish enough that it is familiar and I can do my job.
That is exactly my observation. When the good power Mac laptops came out a lot of my ThinkPad Linux laptop using co-workers jumped ship. Number one reason stated: battery life. Number two reason stated: suspend works reliably. Number three: it is POSIX/UNIX-ish enough that it is familiar and I can do my job.
> …and I can do my job.
Apple came close to capturing developer mindset at that time. Carting around a Unix workstation in a laptop, and if you spent the money to max out its memory, be able to simultaneously emulate a small Windows laptop at that time was a game changer for those who could leverage that kind of power.
Unfortunately Intel started slipping and Apple couldn’t really push laptop boundaries as much soon after.
Apple’s new architecture opens up that possibility again by decoupling from Intel, but I’m not sure Cook’s vision sees the advantages of a 128GB RAM MacBook Pro.
Apple came close to capturing developer mindset at that time. Carting around a Unix workstation in a laptop, and if you spent the money to max out its memory, be able to simultaneously emulate a small Windows laptop at that time was a game changer for those who could leverage that kind of power.
Unfortunately Intel started slipping and Apple couldn’t really push laptop boundaries as much soon after.
Apple’s new architecture opens up that possibility again by decoupling from Intel, but I’m not sure Cook’s vision sees the advantages of a 128GB RAM MacBook Pro.
It's kind of like old-school car mechanics vs young techs. Old school guys would often do fab work on the spot (welding, cutting, etc) but only have a few different models to deal with and no certifications. Most shops these days just focus on swapping parts.
When Thinkpads have turned out to be pretty much the same in those terms, you might as well just use the cheaper and more durable product. Apple at least has more confidence in its lines than Lenovo (who wouldn't bother defering drastic changes at the whims of MBA "market researches") does.
"Business" laptops have all gone down in a race to the bottom in my opinion. If you want to see innovations in the laptop space today, Gaming laptops is where it's at.
"Business" laptops have all gone down in a race to the bottom in my opinion. If you want to see innovations in the laptop space today, Gaming laptops is where it's at.
This is pretty much true. Unfortunately this comes with the downside of high heat from the video card , but I suppose if you buy a gaming laptop for the sole purpose of business, that wouldn’t be a problem.
There are many gaming laptops that are more serviceable than business laptops. However, they also tend to be heavier.
It’s a trade off I guess
There are many gaming laptops that are more serviceable than business laptops. However, they also tend to be heavier.
It’s a trade off I guess
> However, they also tend to be heavier.
Sure, but 95% of business laptop use is sitting on a desk somewhere.
The other 5% being carried to/from a couple of conference rooms and/or a car.
Sure, but 95% of business laptop use is sitting on a desk somewhere.
The other 5% being carried to/from a couple of conference rooms and/or a car.
I made this switch personally. The newer "compact" models from Lenovo do not work as well with Linux as the classic ones. If you want a compact, reliable unix-like laptop then Apple is really the best (for now).
You're downvoted, but not entirely wrong. My T14s had issues with suspend and the TrackPoint moving by itself, both took about 6 months to fix. Linux support is generally great, but I wouldn't recommend buying brand new releases of hardware until the kernel/userland has had a chance to catch up to it.
My Thinkpad X220 still going strong, and I miss a computer I can open up, replace or upgrade what's needed in an easy way. The form factor is good enough and I don't need or want this inch thin laptops just because one company decided it's suits them and fashionable.
Unfortunately Lenovo doesn't really keep the brand and in the gazillion models they have on stock, there isn't one that can replace my X220 in convenience of use and long term usability. There is a market for this laptops and as long as they ignore it they will just lose more and more market share.
Unfortunately Lenovo doesn't really keep the brand and in the gazillion models they have on stock, there isn't one that can replace my X220 in convenience of use and long term usability. There is a market for this laptops and as long as they ignore it they will just lose more and more market share.
The X220 was for many long-time ThinkPad users the last good one. It had real keycaps and no trackpad. Too bad about the display, since the X220 was during the era that Lenovo was gaslighting buyers about how IPS panels simply could not be procured on the open market, right before Apple showed them to be liars. The X220 display is truly ghastly.
Like some other X-series enthusiasts I consider the X61 Tablet with the AFFS panel to have been the pinnacle of the series.
Like some other X-series enthusiasts I consider the X61 Tablet with the AFFS panel to have been the pinnacle of the series.
The X230 is nearly identical physically, and you can swap the X220 keyboard onto it.
Advantage being 3rd-gen/HD4000 igpu which is Vulkan capable, not available on the X220. This difference makes the X230 far more practical in terms of modern graphics development/environments.
Advantage being 3rd-gen/HD4000 igpu which is Vulkan capable, not available on the X220. This difference makes the X230 far more practical in terms of modern graphics development/environments.
Also after the X230, the next few generations of intel CPUs that thinkpads used really focused on low power over performance. So because of that it performs like much younger laptops.
TIL. Honestly it looks like you'd need to do some grinding to get the 220 keyboard into the 230? But that's cool, I did not know.
https://download.lenovo.com/Images/Parts/45N2211/1.jpg
https://download.lenovo.com/Images/Parts/04X1345/12.jpg
https://download.lenovo.com/Images/Parts/45N2211/1.jpg
https://download.lenovo.com/Images/Parts/04X1345/12.jpg
Pretty sure it's just a matter of getting X220 palmrest/plastic trim surround to avoid any alterations. You can find writeups via the obvious searches, here's some such results:
https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Install_Classic_Keyboard_on_x...
https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/9cp8pq/x230x220_k...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4_6LQrmu14
https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Install_Classic_Keyboard_on_x...
https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/9cp8pq/x230x220_k...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4_6LQrmu14
the x220 has a trackpad, but it's kind of an afterthought. It's disabled on my machine.
I think you're getting your models muddled.
The X200 has no trackpad.
The X220 has one as well as its trackpoint.
Both have been called "the best laptop ever made". I have both. Both are good, but the 220 is more flexible and for me 100% usable today.
The X200 has no trackpad.
The X220 has one as well as its trackpoint.
Both have been called "the best laptop ever made". I have both. Both are good, but the 220 is more flexible and for me 100% usable today.
This is probably my biggest pain point with my X220. 1366x768 isn't enough!
If the frame.work laptops get trackpoint Ill say goodbye to Lenovo. Until then I see no replacement.
We'll see how long my x260 lasts.
We'll see how long my x260 lasts.
Checkout Novena, where you can use Thinkpad keyboard.
https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/novena
I also once saw a german butique laptop maker, that makes this thicc laptops where every part is customizable and has oldschool thinkpad style keyboard. I just can't remember the barand name.
https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/novena
I also once saw a german butique laptop maker, that makes this thicc laptops where every part is customizable and has oldschool thinkpad style keyboard. I just can't remember the barand name.
The feature request for a TrackPoint option on the Framework laptop is right here:
https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026
https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026
I'm aware of that thread, but they're basically saying they won't do it. So I'm still trapped with Thinkpads.
I got an X1 about a year ago because I thought it would be a satisfactory replacement for an X220. The screen, sound and battery life are definitely big improvements, but the Trackpoint never worked well and the ridiculously thin keyboard was a real disappointment. When a few keys stopped working (after ~ 1 year), I improvised with a wireless Mac keyboard. It would be nice to get the keyboard working but it looks like that involves many tricky steps and very tiny screws and I resent having to fix something that is not pleasing to begin with.
I realized that the X1's great display, battery life and keyboard didn't make me as happy as the X220's amazing keyboard and operational Trackpoint. So I found a replacement battery which looked like it wouldn't catch on fire and I'm back to the X220. My new adventure is figuring out how to move Office 2019 from the old computer to the new one.
I realized that the X1's great display, battery life and keyboard didn't make me as happy as the X220's amazing keyboard and operational Trackpoint. So I found a replacement battery which looked like it wouldn't catch on fire and I'm back to the X220. My new adventure is figuring out how to move Office 2019 from the old computer to the new one.
I bought an X1 Carbon and it also broke (within 2 years). I really like the Trackpoint though so I bought a T14s. It does not have replaceable parts, but it is a lot thicker, and therefore more powerful (for the price), more reliable and has a better keyboard than the X series.
The modern day equivalent to the X220 is the T-series, not the X-series.
The modern day equivalent to the X220 is the T-series, not the X-series.
Same here. My blood pressure rises every time I have to type on a laptop that isn't my x220. Please give us laptops with real keyboards.
Yes I have used the old usb sk-8855 and even bought the Tex Shinobi mechanical keyboard. I still prefer the feel of typing and using an x220 over anything else. When a client sends me a dedicated machine to work on I still get round this by installing VNC server and controlling it on a X220 keyboard
Lenovo ruined the ThinkPad reputation. They try so hard with unwanted features from Apple. If I need those features, I will get MacBook Air or Pro. The legendary brand, once known for reliability, now comes with RAM stuck to the motherboard. Not to mention overheating and a weird bug for Linux power management. The best ThinkPads are older ones. You can get them from eBay and install Linux on them. The newer ones are not worth my money and time. YMMV.
Nobody is buying a Macbook because RAM is soldered in. Nobody, not even Apple fans, see soldered ram as a feature.
Lenovo is trying to stand out selling what is basically a commodity device and that's hard to do. They are stuck buying the same parts and software as lots of other Windows OEMs.
Lenovo is trying to stand out selling what is basically a commodity device and that's hard to do. They are stuck buying the same parts and software as lots of other Windows OEMs.
I have an x220 in my line up of older machines. My newest is an X1 Carbon gen6 aka x1c6. I was surprised how quickly I was able to open the bottom of it up install a new wifi6 card. About 5 screws and the back is off and another screw holding in the wifi card. I dont think the x220 is that fast.
To replace the WLAN card in an X220, you must remove all the screws on the bottom of the case, the keyboard, and the palm rest. It's not trivial but anyone can do it.
Unfortunately it would be largely pointless since the X220 has an allowlist for PCIe cards, and I'm sure it does not include any modern wifi devices.
Unfortunately it would be largely pointless since the X220 has an allowlist for PCIe cards, and I'm sure it does not include any modern wifi devices.
I upgraded the WiFi cards in my X200 units by installing Coreboot, which has no PCIe allowlist. https://www.neilvandyke.org/coreboot/ I don't know the state of Coreboot support for X220, and the entire process can be a headache, but it might be an option.
I understand some people instead use modified stock Lenovo BIOS to defeat the PCIe allowlist.
I understand some people instead use modified stock Lenovo BIOS to defeat the PCIe allowlist.
The whitelist can be removed pretty easily.
https://www.bios-mods.com/forum/Thread-REQUEST-Lenovo-X220-8...
https://www.bios-mods.com/forum/Thread-REQUEST-Lenovo-X220-8...
[deleted]
I don't know if it's just the x220 but every time I open it I seem to have at least one left over screw on my desk.
I've got an x1 yoga (and w520) but my next is a framework.
I just replaced my x220 workhorse with an x280. Grabbed a cheapo referb and had to replace a single busted key. So far so good and it's far more solid than it looks.
Just got a new T14 (3. gen Intel, 14'') for my personal computing needs, while also using a 16'' Macbook Pro M1 for work. I have to say the T14 is a really nice machine and feels quite modern. The variant with the 4k screen is comparable in quality to the Macbook screen, though it only has 60 Hz (which isn't very noticeable I find). The 16:10 ratio is also quite nice, glad this came back into fashion. The touchscreen is a nice gimmick but mostly useful in Windows, Linux supports it but without multi-touch it seems (or maybe I didn't look in the right place), so it's not very useful. The only thing that's disappointing is the runtime, even with the larger 50Wh battery I only get 3-4 hours of usage out of it, while my Macbook seems to last forever. I think the Macbook uses less than 7W when idling, whereas the Thinkpad's value is in the 14W range it seems. So yeah, Lenovo has still some catching up to do but it seems they're going in the right direction again.
Hijacking the thread to ask what would you choose as a 12" replacement for a X240. It still works great (using it now) and Linux support is perfect, but I have the chance to buy locally refurbished X270 or X280 devices with 1080 screen at a good price. Are they the best upgrade before going to different models? I believe they are also compatible with the docking station and bigger battery I already have on the 240, which is a bonus.
Thanks!
IBM's ThinkPads lasted to this day without having issues.
My Lenovo ThinkPad T14s AMD has multiple dead pixels, enter and backspace keys not working at all and completely fucked up USB bridge, resetting devices all the time which results in unsolicited clicks and drag'n'drop or screen selection being unavailable both using mouse and touchpad.
"Business laptop" my ass. It's a disgrace to the ThinkPad brand what Lenovo sells.
My Lenovo ThinkPad T14s AMD has multiple dead pixels, enter and backspace keys not working at all and completely fucked up USB bridge, resetting devices all the time which results in unsolicited clicks and drag'n'drop or screen selection being unavailable both using mouse and touchpad.
"Business laptop" my ass. It's a disgrace to the ThinkPad brand what Lenovo sells.
P14s Gen2 (Ryzen 7 PRO 5850U, 4k matte/calibrated display), no issues at all. did have to swap the mediatek Wifi card for an Intel AX210, (could have been early driver issues in linux kernel tho, but maybe not...cloning a big git repo perma-disconnected wifi in linux and bluescreened Win10)
i think the T14 is equivalent, but either they didn't offer the 4k display or AMD with that model when i was ordering. their model naming is sadistic.
i think the T14 is equivalent, but either they didn't offer the 4k display or AMD with that model when i was ordering. their model naming is sadistic.
I have the same laptop. Keyboard squeaks, USB-C port doesn't hold the adapter in place - falls out all the time. Battery life is appalling for a 2022 model laptop. It runs hot all the time, like burn my legs hot - I cannot work with it on my lap. That's probably related to the OS (Windows 11 'Pro'). Feels cheap and plasticky for the amount it cost. Thank goodness it's supplied by work and I didn't buy it. Not my first experience with Lenovo, but not great.
Edit: The trackpad is quite literally the worst I've every used - at times it's completely unresponsive.
Edit: The trackpad is quite literally the worst I've every used - at times it's completely unresponsive.
interesting.
i'll agree on battery life, mine is mostly on AC power (used as workstation) and i never bothered with https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Laptop_Mode_Tools but i hear it makes a huge difference, the 4k display on this doesn't help.
my keyboard is okay (they're easy and cheap to swap, maybe try another one), but i do hear some subtle electrical noise from the mainboard when it's "doing stuff". i don't use the trackpad at all and generally hate all trackpads for any prolonged use -- a compact bluetooth mouse is the way to go (i use Logitech MX Anywhere).
i don't use the use USB ports much except a USB-C for an external NVME, no issues with it or the others when i've had to use them.
i opted for the integrated card reader. unfortunately only micro-sd is available and the latching spring is too stiff and too deep (so the card sits flush) and is basically impossible to insert or remove without a paperclip or credit card to push it into place.
but this 4k calibrated display is amazing compared to what thinkpads always came with, even their 1440p matte IPS options were garbage.
i'll agree on battery life, mine is mostly on AC power (used as workstation) and i never bothered with https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Laptop_Mode_Tools but i hear it makes a huge difference, the 4k display on this doesn't help.
my keyboard is okay (they're easy and cheap to swap, maybe try another one), but i do hear some subtle electrical noise from the mainboard when it's "doing stuff". i don't use the trackpad at all and generally hate all trackpads for any prolonged use -- a compact bluetooth mouse is the way to go (i use Logitech MX Anywhere).
i don't use the use USB ports much except a USB-C for an external NVME, no issues with it or the others when i've had to use them.
i opted for the integrated card reader. unfortunately only micro-sd is available and the latching spring is too stiff and too deep (so the card sits flush) and is basically impossible to insert or remove without a paperclip or credit card to push it into place.
but this 4k calibrated display is amazing compared to what thinkpads always came with, even their 1440p matte IPS options were garbage.
Mine came with the 1440p matte IPS, which I can concur is utter garbage! Previously, I had an x280. The USB-C, battery and touchpad all had issues, but it was a considerably better machine. "Business" laptops seem to be a crap-shoot to me.
Second this. The company I work for had countless issues with this model. Stuck keys, heat, stuck drag and drop, touchpad unclickable at top.
>My Lenovo ThinkPad T14s AMD has multiple dead pixels, enter and backspace keys not working at all
Sounds like valid reasons to RMA it. Why haven't you done that yet?
Sounds like valid reasons to RMA it. Why haven't you done that yet?
I went throught 2 T14 Gen 1 AMD, 3 screens and then gave up. 2020 wasn't great for Lenovo's QA.
I have the same model (gen 1 at least) and don't have any such issues, for what it's worth.
Disappointing article. The picture of the history was neat but small... The author didn't provide any interesting anecdotes whatsoever. Would have been great to read something about "X too longer than expected to implement because Y and Z". There's a book recommended at the end, but I'm certainly led by this article to believe there's much of interest...
Similar reaction; it was a plug to sell the book.
I got a fully loaded P50 back in 2017 and it's been amazing to use for 5 years. Runs everything, very VM friendly. Very repairable. Yeah, I had to repair its screen, but that took no time. I reseated the heatsink around the CPU/GPU combo, that was really easy too. It's butt-ugly and fat and heavy but I much prefer it to the work macbook, works faster, runs quieter, has better battery life, and is much more pleasant to type on.
Also in the house, X1 carbon and 2 X380 Yogas, all great machines too.
The old school pre-Lenovo keyboards are the best ever made. Nothing even comes close to that feeling.
SK-8855 (https://sharktastica.co.uk/wiki?id=lenovo8855) is my biggest productivity tool. I'm probably about twice as productive with this keyboard than without it.
They resell for $150+ on ebay. I dread the day when my supply runs out.
They resell for $150+ on ebay. I dread the day when my supply runs out.
I’ve since switched to HHKBs and they’ve served me well!
I'm typing this comment on a T60 keyboard, transplanted into a T500.
IIRC, Lenovo was manufacturing the T60 for IBM, but, by Lenovo T500 time, they seemed to be skimping on the keyboard backing, causing it to flex.
IIRC, Lenovo was manufacturing the T60 for IBM, but, by Lenovo T500 time, they seemed to be skimping on the keyboard backing, causing it to flex.
Old school Think pads had the best keyboards.
Today's ThinkPads may not have all the same features as the classic ThinkPads, but they are still, by far, the best laptops you can buy. Dell and HP might be made of the same components but they pale in quality when you compare the whole package, case, keyboard, build quality...
I see a lot of nostalgia in the comments. Besides my MacBook, I have both an IdeaPad (Flex 5) and a ThinkPad X1 Carbon (the latter one work assigned).
I have been using ThinkPads for almost as long as MacBooks, and I find the modern Thinkpad keyboard much nicer than the T or X series, since the longer travel gave me RSI, and the newer keyboards are much, much quieter. I can switch between my MacBook, the X1 and the Yoga without any significant decrease in accuracy (other than modifier key placement) or impact, and although the feel is different, they all feel pretty great to me.
(I will not mention the hideous MacBook keyboards of the next-to-last series... Those were just bad.)
Quality-wise, I do notice the Yoga is a bit mushier (like the Logitech K380 I am typing this in now, but with less travel), but the X1 is every bit as good as the MacBook's.
Same goes for trackpads. X1 (using Windows 11 drivers) and MacBook are roughly equivalent, Yoga slightly less smooth but still OK.
(I don't use the TrackPoint because it too makes my RSI flare up - although I was an avid user for decades, if I use it for more than a day my index tendon starts stinging noticeably)
Lenovo does cut some corners, though, and with the Yoga and the X1 beside one another the differences in build quality and screen are evident (the X1 has a great HIDPI one, with good brightness and color accuracy, while the Yoga has a chalkboard).
But compared to most other PC laptops I've used (except maybe some Surface models), modern ThinkPads are still great.
I have been using ThinkPads for almost as long as MacBooks, and I find the modern Thinkpad keyboard much nicer than the T or X series, since the longer travel gave me RSI, and the newer keyboards are much, much quieter. I can switch between my MacBook, the X1 and the Yoga without any significant decrease in accuracy (other than modifier key placement) or impact, and although the feel is different, they all feel pretty great to me.
(I will not mention the hideous MacBook keyboards of the next-to-last series... Those were just bad.)
Quality-wise, I do notice the Yoga is a bit mushier (like the Logitech K380 I am typing this in now, but with less travel), but the X1 is every bit as good as the MacBook's.
Same goes for trackpads. X1 (using Windows 11 drivers) and MacBook are roughly equivalent, Yoga slightly less smooth but still OK.
(I don't use the TrackPoint because it too makes my RSI flare up - although I was an avid user for decades, if I use it for more than a day my index tendon starts stinging noticeably)
Lenovo does cut some corners, though, and with the Yoga and the X1 beside one another the differences in build quality and screen are evident (the X1 has a great HIDPI one, with good brightness and color accuracy, while the Yoga has a chalkboard).
But compared to most other PC laptops I've used (except maybe some Surface models), modern ThinkPads are still great.
Does anyone think foldable displays is particularly innovative? I feel like most people who are fans of the thinkpad are not looking for innovation - they're mostly people who want conservative laptop designs.
Apple has Macbook Air and Macbook Pro and just a few variations in each line.
How many lines does Lenovo have? ThinkPad, ThinkBook, Legion, Yoga, Ideapad, and one or two others and each brand has tons of different variations. They have innovative designs and more conservative ones. They sell low end utility machines and space-heater gaming machines. They are trying to be everything to everybody.
How many lines does Lenovo have? ThinkPad, ThinkBook, Legion, Yoga, Ideapad, and one or two others and each brand has tons of different variations. They have innovative designs and more conservative ones. They sell low end utility machines and space-heater gaming machines. They are trying to be everything to everybody.
It's obvious people in business use cases will want conservatism in design. Gimmicks like foldable displays are more suited to be introduced in the consumer space first, then brought over to business laptops if they stand the test of time in the market.
You want wacky thinkpad displays? I used to own a 755CV.
https://twitter.com/gravislizard/status/837100849964830721
https://twitter.com/gravislizard/status/837100849964830721
I just resurrected my old T410 from 2010 which had a "FAN ERROR" at boot. I just unscrewed and screwed back a screw that was attaching the fan, I guess, and it went back as on the first day. My T60 from 2007 never had a problem and is still kicking.
Interesting. I must try that. My X200, W500 and T61 all give fan errors.
Lenovo has lost its way with the ThinkPad brand on repairability. But that's a niche more adequately filled by new players such as Frame.work, who can solely focus on the repairability and extensibility aspects for enthusiasts.
If Lenovo guaranteed Ubuntu support out-of-the-box for the ThinkPad Carbon models (and I mean proper support, like no configuring, finger-print reader working etc.) then I wouldn't have switched to macOS.
I have a W550s that I've been using for work since 2015. Still going strong! In that time, I have:
- replaced the battery - upgraded to 1TB SSD - upgraded from 8GB to 16GB of RAM
Never had a laptop from Dell or Asus that was this rugged. It's huge, but the screen, touchpad and keyboard are all rock solid.
Of course, it's old enough that it has no USB-C host ports. VGA available for your convenience though!
https://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/laptops/lenovo-thinkpad-w5...
- replaced the battery - upgraded to 1TB SSD - upgraded from 8GB to 16GB of RAM
Never had a laptop from Dell or Asus that was this rugged. It's huge, but the screen, touchpad and keyboard are all rock solid.
Of course, it's old enough that it has no USB-C host ports. VGA available for your convenience though!
https://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/laptops/lenovo-thinkpad-w5...
Anyone here know if it's possible to fix a t43p cooling fan that sounds like a bumblebee?
I doubt I can find a replacement
I doubt I can find a replacement
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=t43p+fan
Looks like there are still some replacements kicking around.
I've never seen a computer fan be repaired, and it seems the bearings all tend to fail eventually.
Looks like there are still some replacements kicking around.
I've never seen a computer fan be repaired, and it seems the bearings all tend to fail eventually.
I've had good luck with the ThinkPad fans from eBay.
A few tips to anyone doing the replacement:
* Find the PDF of the ThinkPad Hardware Maintenance Manual (HMM) for your model. This will give valuable step-by-step instructions for disassembling the parts that you need to, and not the parts you don't.
* Just buy the fan part, not the whole heatsink+fan assembly, even if the HMM tells you that the FRU is the assembly.
* Keep track of the screws as you take them out. I like to use a sheet of paper with loops of tape, and label as I remove (see photo on "https://www.neilvandyke.org/coreboot/").
* Have some thermal compound handy, as well as a way to clean the old compound. Since either you'll end up separating the heatsink from the CPU (and possibly other chipset packages), or you might as well replace compound while you have it open.
* You might need new tape to attach the fan part to the grill.
A few tips to anyone doing the replacement:
* Find the PDF of the ThinkPad Hardware Maintenance Manual (HMM) for your model. This will give valuable step-by-step instructions for disassembling the parts that you need to, and not the parts you don't.
* Just buy the fan part, not the whole heatsink+fan assembly, even if the HMM tells you that the FRU is the assembly.
* Keep track of the screws as you take them out. I like to use a sheet of paper with loops of tape, and label as I remove (see photo on "https://www.neilvandyke.org/coreboot/").
* Have some thermal compound handy, as well as a way to clean the old compound. Since either you'll end up separating the heatsink from the CPU (and possibly other chipset packages), or you might as well replace compound while you have it open.
* You might need new tape to attach the fan part to the grill.
Ebay has been great for thinkpad parts in general (I've replaced keyboards, screens and trackpads) as well as fans for other laptop models.
My first one was a X30 in the early 2000s when I was a computer science student in college. I got it for a student price well under MSRP and couldn't believe how well a machine could be built. It was an amazing machine that was ahead of its time trying to be an ultralight portable with a 12" screen and no CD-ROM (an unheard of omission on a laptop of that era). It was perfect for taking anywhere and it ran Debian and later Ubuntu (version 2!) just fine. I still miss that machine, it was perfect.
I have a stack of ThinkPads (T400,T510,T530) that I use for testing out new distros, etc. I love how easy it is to swap SSDs around and that they are built like tanks. I only really need one, so I'd ditch the 400 and 510, but shipping costs make it not worth ebaying them. I figure that, one day, I'll meet some local techie kid and gift them, but I haven't run into any in my RL circles. Any other suggestions?
I still use a T520 from 2011 for hobby projects, picked it for 100 euros a while ago. Just gotta love the keyboard travel, I don't think anything available new today comes close. The 1080p screen is perfectly fine for programming, no complains about performance either with i7, SSD and 16GB of RAM as I don't do anything super intensive. Only thing that really sucks is the aftermarket battery.
When I was in college I bought several bulk for part thinkpads. X200, x200s, T400s, x60, and others. Was able to rebuild all of them. Wonderfully engineered, durable like nothing else, typing on them is a treat.
Stated playing with coreboot on them, and libreboot got me more into soldering and software.
I wish they would bring back a real keyboard. I travel with a mechanical keyboard, they are so much more enjoyable and productive.
Stated playing with coreboot on them, and libreboot got me more into soldering and software.
I wish they would bring back a real keyboard. I travel with a mechanical keyboard, they are so much more enjoyable and productive.
I still love my Thinkpads. Run Linux and code endlessly on them. Gone through a P50, P52, P1G2, P17, and now a P16. Been very happy every time.
How did you find P50? I've just bought one for a personal machine. I've had X220 (too slow and resolution was shite for 2018), W530, very hot but potentially still good, gave that one away. Now have P16G4 for work, happy in general but the carbon finish is such a finger print magnet.
4:3 display.
Not mentioned, I really miss the taller 4:3 displays.
Not mentioned, I really miss the taller 4:3 displays.
Same! Currently I'm fond of my Framework laptop which has a 3:2 display.
Did everyone just forget about the time they put malware in their BIOS and installed dodgy root CAs on people’s machines (Superfish)?
I am surprised they have remained so prominent in security-conscious organisations since.
I am surprised they have remained so prominent in security-conscious organisations since.
I dont have any nostalgia for Thinkpads but I like the laptops. My first is a T490s I got from work as a work machine and it really is great.
Still the best keyboard in a laptop I have used.
Dial down the Windows power settings and the fan is totally off on idle/low load.
About 7-8h battery life doing heavy web browsing / Citrix VDI
Looking into it I would have liked a maxed T480 instead so I could max the RAM and SSD on it aftermarket actually...
When/if I need a personal laptop Ill get a Thinkpad for sure.
Still the best keyboard in a laptop I have used.
Dial down the Windows power settings and the fan is totally off on idle/low load.
About 7-8h battery life doing heavy web browsing / Citrix VDI
Looking into it I would have liked a maxed T480 instead so I could max the RAM and SSD on it aftermarket actually...
When/if I need a personal laptop Ill get a Thinkpad for sure.
Sometimes you see mentioned limited runs on certain Thinkpad models where the insides can all be upgraded to more current performance levels. I'd love to be able to ship my Thinkpad somewhere and I get to choose the not Intel/AMD CPUx86, rom based OS genode/sel4, Plan 9 Legacy OS userspace environment for recreational programming Emacs CL.
I used a ThinkPad between 2010 and 2012. For me it's a normal machine with nothing special. I don't understand the cult status.
Compared to HP and Dell they are the best. Still. Not to mention something like Acer, Asus, Razer or MSI.
For business mind you. They are not "gaming laptops"
For business mind you. They are not "gaming laptops"
I own 4 thinkpads and they all still work and are in great condition. Best laptop hardware I owned the past 30 years. Sturdy af, unbreakable and had the best keyboard. Thanks for setting such a high bar Thinkpads of (5xx -keeb), 4xx, 3xx, 2xx era!
I wonder if there'll be a 30th anniversary edition like there was at the 25th
Yep there's a 30th edition X1 Carbon though the only difference is the sticker and the box
https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadx1/t...
https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadx1/t...
Can't imagine who's buying that at $4000. Your average Thinkpad enthusiast probably paid less for their last ten ThinkPads combined than that.
Thinkpad pricing like it's 1994.
Its 40% off tho.
Not even a proper keyboard like they did for the 25th anniversary. Boo.
Yeah that's really what I was hoping for when I asked the question.
I don't mind the chiclet keycaps, but Lenovo really ruined the keyboard when they went from the 7 row layout [0] to the current 6 row layout [1].
Each new generation of ThinkPad reduces the travel distance of the keyboard - they've gone from 2.5 mm in the T420 (2011) to 1.5 mm in the T14 G3 (2022). 1 mm doesn't sound like on paper, but you immediately notice the difference if you switch between them. I don't understand why Lenovo doesn't add an extra 1 mm to the thickness of their laptops, at least it would restore the reputation for typing feel on ThinkPads.
For repairability: soldered WLAN cards, 1 SO-DIMM slot or soldered RAM on T/X series machines (HP offers 2x SO-DIMM slots on most EliteBooks) are a step backwards.
USB-C charging sounds good at first, but the ports start to wear out after 2 years and become loose. They are soldered to the motherboard, so good luck repairing them if you aren't good at micro soldering.
[0] https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/_migrated/pics/t420_...
[1] https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/_processed_/f/5/csm_...