Ask HN: Why is Japan so insular?
37 comments
While I respect you asking a legitimate question, I would recommend being cautious while reading this thread. Discussions about Japanese culture, and foreign cultures in general, tend to be dominated by westerners retelling ideas they've read by other western people on the internet.
Japan not having a large presence in American social networks makes it especially vulnerable to exoticization, speculation, and exaggeration of issues in the country. Especially when the discussion is largely (not always) the result of a long game of telephone.
I'm sure the commenters mean well, just take everything with a grain of salt and do some of your own research into the ideas presented here.
Japan not having a large presence in American social networks makes it especially vulnerable to exoticization, speculation, and exaggeration of issues in the country. Especially when the discussion is largely (not always) the result of a long game of telephone.
I'm sure the commenters mean well, just take everything with a grain of salt and do some of your own research into the ideas presented here.
For me Japan doesn't seem that foreign, I mean they have a basically individualistic outlook that doesn't seem to strange to an American, at least this American.
I saw a line printed pin up of Lum from Urusei Yatsura when I was in college, went to the anime club, and developed an obsession with Japan that continues today.
It is well compartmentalized (I rarely talk about it on HN) so I rarely come across as a North America weeaboo but if you open my backpack you might find a
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kendama
and a Nintendo 3DS and a Sony Minidisc player and a box of 4x6 prints I made some of which are anime art and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukiyo-e
and also a book or a copy of the Pillow Book. (This is not all I am into you will find some Italian and Russian futurist painting reproductions, maybe a book about Fuzzy Logic or Margaret Thatcher too. Probably the strangest thing about my backpack is that it is overpacked, something appropriate for a long trek into an intellectual desert.)
Until Japan every non-western culture posed no effective resistance to imperalism. The Japanese felt they had choice but to beat the white man at their own game and they've come very close to doing so, setting a precedent for other cultures.
If there was one thing unique about Japan I'd say it is highly resistant to Christianity. In the past they banned Christianity and oppressed them just as violently as Christians oppressed Christians in Europe. Today there is little direct hostility to Christianity but there is almost no market penetration for it. Contrast that to Korea, where people will discover it, think it is the best news they ever heard, get more people to show up at church and next week have them bursting out the doors and ready to start a new church across town.
I saw a line printed pin up of Lum from Urusei Yatsura when I was in college, went to the anime club, and developed an obsession with Japan that continues today.
It is well compartmentalized (I rarely talk about it on HN) so I rarely come across as a North America weeaboo but if you open my backpack you might find a
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kendama
and a Nintendo 3DS and a Sony Minidisc player and a box of 4x6 prints I made some of which are anime art and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukiyo-e
and also a book or a copy of the Pillow Book. (This is not all I am into you will find some Italian and Russian futurist painting reproductions, maybe a book about Fuzzy Logic or Margaret Thatcher too. Probably the strangest thing about my backpack is that it is overpacked, something appropriate for a long trek into an intellectual desert.)
Until Japan every non-western culture posed no effective resistance to imperalism. The Japanese felt they had choice but to beat the white man at their own game and they've come very close to doing so, setting a precedent for other cultures.
If there was one thing unique about Japan I'd say it is highly resistant to Christianity. In the past they banned Christianity and oppressed them just as violently as Christians oppressed Christians in Europe. Today there is little direct hostility to Christianity but there is almost no market penetration for it. Contrast that to Korea, where people will discover it, think it is the best news they ever heard, get more people to show up at church and next week have them bursting out the doors and ready to start a new church across town.
I don't know...I think this is overcautious--and actually too dismissive of the views of non-japanese people, it sort of sounds like you think we need to discount those views, but I think that's pretty racist (a racist stereotype like if you're not Japanese then you can't think or talk about the culture in anything but a stupid way...very racist to say so), and maybe a part of the insularity I'm trying to investigate!--because the idea of insularity is about cultural interaction across cultures, so the opinions of other cultures and their experiences of Japan is vitally important...it can't just be from Japanese people as you seem to be suggesting, we have to listen to everyone from everywhere, that's the point of this question, which I don't think you got.
So....But actually, I aimed to elicit the response from Japanese people about their own culture. I think there's an unintentional trend to view this as negative...I want to encourage Japanese people to tell the story of their insular culture in a positive way...I really just want to understand it. I thought that could kind of happen here, but maybe not today as it looks like this question has been flagged--for some reason? Oh well...HN can't be the forum for everything. I guess I'll have to rely on 1st hand experience again. It's not bad, 1st hand experience is probably better than something you can hear on a forum anyway. I would just love to hear some views from some Japanese people...I know they are here
So....But actually, I aimed to elicit the response from Japanese people about their own culture. I think there's an unintentional trend to view this as negative...I want to encourage Japanese people to tell the story of their insular culture in a positive way...I really just want to understand it. I thought that could kind of happen here, but maybe not today as it looks like this question has been flagged--for some reason? Oh well...HN can't be the forum for everything. I guess I'll have to rely on 1st hand experience again. It's not bad, 1st hand experience is probably better than something you can hear on a forum anyway. I would just love to hear some views from some Japanese people...I know they are here
> I aimed to elicit the response from Japanese people about their own culture
This is overly optimistic in my opinion. When I wrote my original comment I didn't see any indication that any of the other commenters had any connection to or expertise regarding Japan, they were speculating based on their own cultures and their own knowledge. In my experience expert opinions are very likely to get buried in a forum like this unless they agree with the mainstream, non-expert view.
> I think this is overcautious--and actually too dismissive of the views of non-japanese people
I never said you should ignore or dismiss people's views completely, just that you should be cautious. There's a lot of speculation going on that you should avoid putting too much faith into.
> so the opinions of other cultures and their experiences of Japan is vitally important
I'll concede that I hadn't considered that point. But on the other hand, do you really trust people getting little information from a insular country to make well-informed opinions. It's part of the story, but stay skeptical of anything you hear.
I brought things up because of my own frustrations with social networks, particularly Reddit (see my username). Lots of Redditors repeating stuff they saw on Reddit with little critical thinking was part of the reason I strayed away and moved here (also the more technical focus here) Any time Redditors discuss topics or cultures that I'm familiar with, I can tell a lot of people are talking out of their ass.
> question has been flagged--for some reason?
This is unfortunate. I do think there is some interesting discussion to be had. As long as you do your due diligence on any discussions here.
This is overly optimistic in my opinion. When I wrote my original comment I didn't see any indication that any of the other commenters had any connection to or expertise regarding Japan, they were speculating based on their own cultures and their own knowledge. In my experience expert opinions are very likely to get buried in a forum like this unless they agree with the mainstream, non-expert view.
> I think this is overcautious--and actually too dismissive of the views of non-japanese people
I never said you should ignore or dismiss people's views completely, just that you should be cautious. There's a lot of speculation going on that you should avoid putting too much faith into.
> so the opinions of other cultures and their experiences of Japan is vitally important
I'll concede that I hadn't considered that point. But on the other hand, do you really trust people getting little information from a insular country to make well-informed opinions. It's part of the story, but stay skeptical of anything you hear.
I brought things up because of my own frustrations with social networks, particularly Reddit (see my username). Lots of Redditors repeating stuff they saw on Reddit with little critical thinking was part of the reason I strayed away and moved here (also the more technical focus here) Any time Redditors discuss topics or cultures that I'm familiar with, I can tell a lot of people are talking out of their ass.
> question has been flagged--for some reason?
This is unfortunate. I do think there is some interesting discussion to be had. As long as you do your due diligence on any discussions here.
Shame people flag this...it's an interesting and valid question. I can't fathom why its flagged.
I would point to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokugawa_shogunate
as this behavior at its peak. There is still a lot of nostaglia for this period in Japan, for instance the (excellent I think) anime
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gin_Tama
is set in a fictionalized version of the subsequent Meiji Period and communicates how people at that time felt they'd lost control of their culture. Historians are not really kind to the Tokugawa period which if I had to characterize in a sentence it would be "Samurai were big shots but they'd forgotten how to cut your head off with a katana", the book
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture_of_Narcissism
is frequently seen as a critique of "postmodern times" in the US but it's commonly seen in Japan as relevant to that period.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokugawa_shogunate
as this behavior at its peak. There is still a lot of nostaglia for this period in Japan, for instance the (excellent I think) anime
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gin_Tama
is set in a fictionalized version of the subsequent Meiji Period and communicates how people at that time felt they'd lost control of their culture. Historians are not really kind to the Tokugawa period which if I had to characterize in a sentence it would be "Samurai were big shots but they'd forgotten how to cut your head off with a katana", the book
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture_of_Narcissism
is frequently seen as a critique of "postmodern times" in the US but it's commonly seen in Japan as relevant to that period.
Many cultures hold on to tradition because it's like rappelling down a cliff. Rappel too fast and you're in free fall. Keep it controlled and you won't descend into crazy untested ideas. America didn't keep its traditional values which is why we lack so much of the decency the Japanese show. As a small stupid example: In Japan you can leave a vending machine out in the middle of nowhere unattended (except for restocking) and it won't get stolen from or destroyed. In America it wouldn't last a day unfortunately.
There are probably lots of reasons.
For one, monoculture can develop when a culture looks backward in a convergent way, developing "the" story of itself, and deriving lessons and forward-facing stances therefrom. This itself was a strong tradition in Japanese culture for what, over a thousand years? It's still very obviously a valued practice in Japan.
Even the cultural trauma narratives have legend-style stories to them, which is interesting in lots of ways but by definition very closed off in others.
The same traits can be observed in organizational culture in general, for example in high-demand (of their membership) religions and certain businesses.
If you combine this with things like geographic isolation (the island excuse gets thrown around a lot), specific cultural movements, a couple of well-timed typhoons, etc., the additional isolation effect has throughout time been able to seal out new perspectives and recirculate more of the previous ones.
A lot of specific and very beautiful refinements can thrive in these kind of circumstances though, so it's not all bad news.
Just some thoughts.
For one, monoculture can develop when a culture looks backward in a convergent way, developing "the" story of itself, and deriving lessons and forward-facing stances therefrom. This itself was a strong tradition in Japanese culture for what, over a thousand years? It's still very obviously a valued practice in Japan.
Even the cultural trauma narratives have legend-style stories to them, which is interesting in lots of ways but by definition very closed off in others.
The same traits can be observed in organizational culture in general, for example in high-demand (of their membership) religions and certain businesses.
If you combine this with things like geographic isolation (the island excuse gets thrown around a lot), specific cultural movements, a couple of well-timed typhoons, etc., the additional isolation effect has throughout time been able to seal out new perspectives and recirculate more of the previous ones.
A lot of specific and very beautiful refinements can thrive in these kind of circumstances though, so it's not all bad news.
Just some thoughts.
Agree, I wouldn't say it's bad news necessarily. Just different. I mean some things can be bad, sure...I think other cultures you can learn from, but like you say...there's perfection of stuff; refinement. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, interesting! :)
Why is Japan like Japan ? Read about "uchi" and "soto", and how Japanese society was, is, and most likely will be for the foreseeable future, since the gates of Immigration are still closed -- other than for the revolving door they open slightly for sorely needed temporary workers, never to let them stay.
Japanese society is quite different from Chinese society -- whether from China, Taiwan, or elsewhere. From any other, really.
I don't blame them though. Every time I visit the West it just feels like going to hell. ( In Japan for three decades, married to Japanese with Japanese children, who are called, of course, "half". And yet they have a better life in Japan than they could anywhere else. We've been hearing about the decline of Japan since the 90s. Still waiting for it to be the horrible place everyone keeps warning it's becoming. )
Japanese society is quite different from Chinese society -- whether from China, Taiwan, or elsewhere. From any other, really.
I don't blame them though. Every time I visit the West it just feels like going to hell. ( In Japan for three decades, married to Japanese with Japanese children, who are called, of course, "half". And yet they have a better life in Japan than they could anywhere else. We've been hearing about the decline of Japan since the 90s. Still waiting for it to be the horrible place everyone keeps warning it's becoming. )
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An odd question. They're coming out of, as you note, hundreds of years of isolation. Yes, it's a long time since Commodore Perry set foot on the island, but culture moves slowly and historic behaviors leave evidence for centuries afterwards.
Consider how national policies and attitudes around the world have changed over the centuries beyond the scope of your own lifespan. Look at how trends change over large timescales. Consider eating utensils, currencies, attitudes to sexuality, etc.
Consider how national policies and attitudes around the world have changed over the centuries beyond the scope of your own lifespan. Look at how trends change over large timescales. Consider eating utensils, currencies, attitudes to sexuality, etc.
But I suppose, why did they isolate in the first place? Plenty of places have been 'isolated' by geography....but then they opened up...Japan resists that...uniquely...right? I mean, that's kind of special. Why? Do you think, like apart from just the general thing of: we didn't have any other influences and culture moves slowly? Now the world is awash in influences...you can open up or you can stay insular. Japan makes a choice...I'm interested in why...do you think that's something special about Japanese or it's just everywhere?
I would say it's down to the current balance of appetite for conservative policy, as a function of inertia from a conservative history.
Perhaps let's examine the question. Many countries 'opened up'. Japan did also, and readily adopted foreign processes and technologies in the 20th century. If we're referring to immigration, then, sure, they're not keen on it. On that point, they're not actually alone. Countries like Poland are very insular and don't welcome non-whites. Saudi Arabia does not allow casual tourist visa visits and people are typically required to have letters of invitation to enter (https://lifeinsaudiarabia.net/importance-of-invitation-lette...)
I wouldn't refer to their attitude as unique, then.
Perhaps let's examine the question. Many countries 'opened up'. Japan did also, and readily adopted foreign processes and technologies in the 20th century. If we're referring to immigration, then, sure, they're not keen on it. On that point, they're not actually alone. Countries like Poland are very insular and don't welcome non-whites. Saudi Arabia does not allow casual tourist visa visits and people are typically required to have letters of invitation to enter (https://lifeinsaudiarabia.net/importance-of-invitation-lette...)
I wouldn't refer to their attitude as unique, then.
I think it happens in certain circumstances to any type of people, not just East Asian. The same could be said for the Turks. They are also very much into their own culture, and are ethnically homogenous, despite being previously an inclusive and imperial society. The United States can be said to be like that to an extent but with two separate cultures instead of one.
Agree with that. From the limited experience i have with Turkey, they are very unique and independent. I like that about them, they're very much their own country. Interesting place, mix of Asia and West.
I hesitate to say this, but I think we do have to acknowledge that Turkey is only ethnically homogeneous because of
1) the mutual ethnic cleansing by Turkey and Greece of of Anatolian Greeks and Greek Turks
2) the Armenian Genocide
3) heavy discrimination against Turkish Kurds
1) the mutual ethnic cleansing by Turkey and Greece of of Anatolian Greeks and Greek Turks
2) the Armenian Genocide
3) heavy discrimination against Turkish Kurds
The United States has this kind of story.
They are literally an island nation
This book might interest you:
Culture Hacks: Deciphering Differences in American, Chinese, and Japanese Thinking
https://www.amazon.com/Culture-Hacks-Deciphering-Differences...
Thank you! :) Added to my list
Why would they want that? Groups with strong ethnic identity (like the Japanese) want their lands to be inherited by their descendants; this is the default historical position. But atm the Japanese are going to zero with their low birthrate, so idk.
The birthrate in Japan isn't that much lower than the US, and it's higher than China and much higher than South Korea. All the developed nations have low birthrates now, so it's not unique to Japan, though it is lower than most.
1.3 is far below the minimum replacement rate of 2.1. Israel is a developed nation that's not going to zero with 3.01.
I actually like how the Japanese have preserved their culture. With East Asian nations it is easy to fall into the trap of over-westernization as many of Japan's counterparts have done. I think South Korea is the most prominent example.
Korea gave me a very off-putting vibe when I visited. It felt like a massive, heartless tribute to capitalism. I got the sense of a certain perversion of western culture, where a glorification of American culture but no real understanding of it resulted in a strange and confused interpretation that struggles to mix with traditional Korean culture.
Japan on the other hand came across as actually a socialist nation. Wealth tax is heavy and the top bracket of earners don't make much more than the average. There wasn't this glorification of wealth that's so prevalent in western societies. Moreover, in contrast to western nations that prioritize self-interest, they are so organized and respectful of top-down policymaking that it can be seen as a fault in many cases. It made me think if there was one country that could handle climate change, it would be Japan.
Preservation of these different perspectives makes the world interesting, and allows us to learn from each other. Being "insular" is a great thing, in my opinion.
Korea gave me a very off-putting vibe when I visited. It felt like a massive, heartless tribute to capitalism. I got the sense of a certain perversion of western culture, where a glorification of American culture but no real understanding of it resulted in a strange and confused interpretation that struggles to mix with traditional Korean culture.
Japan on the other hand came across as actually a socialist nation. Wealth tax is heavy and the top bracket of earners don't make much more than the average. There wasn't this glorification of wealth that's so prevalent in western societies. Moreover, in contrast to western nations that prioritize self-interest, they are so organized and respectful of top-down policymaking that it can be seen as a fault in many cases. It made me think if there was one country that could handle climate change, it would be Japan.
Preservation of these different perspectives makes the world interesting, and allows us to learn from each other. Being "insular" is a great thing, in my opinion.
I like your analysis. I don't think the socioeconomic policies need to mean cultural insularity but they might do. Still I think Japan's insular monoculture is independent of its (albeit admirable? I guess) economic policy in a causative sense.
'Insula' is literally the Latin word for 'island'.
The geography might inform the culture.
The geography might inform the culture.
What do you mean by “integrating culturally with others”? What would be examples of that?
Good point. There's always divisions (with any culture we can say 'integrates well' with other cultures)...let me think about it for a day, it's pretty late here-- and I'll probably get back to you--hopefully with something more clear. There's something there, I just don't know how to put it into more words right now.
My first draft response is: basically like I feel like folks from Western Nations are essentially pretty good migrants to anywhere in the world in the sense that we don't have too much of a strong culture ourselves where we will migrate to a place and then form little Anglo communities where we only mix among ourselves (so we do that to some extent, Discovery Bay in HK and compounds in Saudi Arabia, eg--but that's not our only option) but we will also kind of migrate to a place you know independently as individuals or small groups and then sort of set up shop and basically like adopt the local culture and try to integrate ourselves and you know transact and trade and stuff.
It's essentially kind of similar to how the southern Chinese ("world best migrants"are) are very migratory and they kind of migrate anywhere in the world with the difference being that the Chinese will often set up a sort of like a local monoculture so that Chinatown kind of place and still kind of maintain a strong culture where as in the west we have sort of a looser idea or own culture and I think we're more flexible.
But I don't see the Japanese having a correlate in either of these activities: they don't really seem so migratory and when they do migrate they don't really seem to do the same sort of integration or mercantile sort of transaction that the westerners or the Chinese do.
Also we can take a look at their country--JP--and while Western Nations commonly include (not all) but commonly include folks from all over the world (and there's certainly still plenty of racism from the dominant anglo cultures but there's still inclusion of folks from all over the world) and immigration policies that are more open. whereas in Japan I think there's obviously stricter and more xenophobic immigration policies but also there's less of this sense of groups from all over the world to the same extent coming in and forming sort of a community there.
It's much more of an exotic thing I think for non Japanese people to move to Japan (while it certainly existent and occurs to some extent), the degree is much less I think than the type of air quotes multiculturalism you'll see in you know a western nation.
And other nations as well it's not exclusively Western but I think Japan stands out for having a sort of xenophobic monoculture that's quite insular and so that's sort of what I'm talking to.
But this is just a first draft kind of elaboration I could probably say a lot more so I'll see you know where that sticks with you and lands on anything and where you take that.
It's essentially kind of similar to how the southern Chinese ("world best migrants"are) are very migratory and they kind of migrate anywhere in the world with the difference being that the Chinese will often set up a sort of like a local monoculture so that Chinatown kind of place and still kind of maintain a strong culture where as in the west we have sort of a looser idea or own culture and I think we're more flexible.
But I don't see the Japanese having a correlate in either of these activities: they don't really seem so migratory and when they do migrate they don't really seem to do the same sort of integration or mercantile sort of transaction that the westerners or the Chinese do.
Also we can take a look at their country--JP--and while Western Nations commonly include (not all) but commonly include folks from all over the world (and there's certainly still plenty of racism from the dominant anglo cultures but there's still inclusion of folks from all over the world) and immigration policies that are more open. whereas in Japan I think there's obviously stricter and more xenophobic immigration policies but also there's less of this sense of groups from all over the world to the same extent coming in and forming sort of a community there.
It's much more of an exotic thing I think for non Japanese people to move to Japan (while it certainly existent and occurs to some extent), the degree is much less I think than the type of air quotes multiculturalism you'll see in you know a western nation.
And other nations as well it's not exclusively Western but I think Japan stands out for having a sort of xenophobic monoculture that's quite insular and so that's sort of what I'm talking to.
But this is just a first draft kind of elaboration I could probably say a lot more so I'll see you know where that sticks with you and lands on anything and where you take that.
You're aware that "insular" means "island-like"?
That's one meaning. It has other meanings, too, tho. You're aware of them, too, right?
There's lots of islands in the world, smaller islands than Japan too, that are coherent cultures...but Japan seems to stand out for its insularity...You think not?
There's lots of islands in the world, smaller islands than Japan too, that are coherent cultures...but Japan seems to stand out for its insularity...You think not?
Its their country. Not every nation has to turn into a western cult.
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"We don't need anyone else, we are complete unto ourselves, we are better than others"-- is it ? "It's just how we do things? No one will understand us?" -- is it? Is this a unique thing or are other cultures very much the same in their insularity just less well known for it?
Strangely I don't think Japanese people will take offence at my question.
I've lived in East Asia (but mostly the Sinosphere) for 10 years, so I have a fair understanding of that culture, but pretty much zero in-depth about other East Asian cultures. I'm very curious