Ask HN: Anyone go through Montessori education until age 12 (end of grade 6)?
Am curious what peoples experiences from Montessori transitioning to other education systems was like and how they perceived the school worked or didn't for then? Have some children decisions and looking for outside opinions! Thanks!
258 comments
I did Montessori from kindergarten until grade 6 (age 12), in Mexico.
I really, really like it.
I think it reinforces the kids natural curiosity.
In middle school, my first year out of Montessori, I was shocked at how little other kids cared about learning. I remember the teacher discussing something about astronomy, and I raised my hand to comment on some fact I had read, and what followed was mockery by my peers and antipathy by the teacher. I learned quickly to never again show that I cared about learning.
This was a huge contrast with Montessori where most us were eager to learn and share what we had learned. I had friends that had built the solar system to scale out of their own initiative (in hindsight they may have taken some liberties, nonetheless).
I kept tabs more or less my classmates that came out of the Montessori, and I think they overall overperformed the non Montessori people in middle school and high school. Harder to gauge adulthood success.
I also liked that they had children of various years in the same classroom. I think it promoted knowledge sharing from the older kids to the younger ones, and it removed barriers for friendships. Some of my best friends back then where older than I was. That would never happen in middle or high school.
Finally, I don't think it's perfect. Because we were all expected to join a traditional school after grade 6, the school made some effort to make sure that the outgoing class had covered all the basic requirements (a not necessarily a simple thing since we had great liberty of pursuing what was interesting to us).
All in all, I would strongly recommend it.
I really, really like it.
I think it reinforces the kids natural curiosity.
In middle school, my first year out of Montessori, I was shocked at how little other kids cared about learning. I remember the teacher discussing something about astronomy, and I raised my hand to comment on some fact I had read, and what followed was mockery by my peers and antipathy by the teacher. I learned quickly to never again show that I cared about learning.
This was a huge contrast with Montessori where most us were eager to learn and share what we had learned. I had friends that had built the solar system to scale out of their own initiative (in hindsight they may have taken some liberties, nonetheless).
I kept tabs more or less my classmates that came out of the Montessori, and I think they overall overperformed the non Montessori people in middle school and high school. Harder to gauge adulthood success.
I also liked that they had children of various years in the same classroom. I think it promoted knowledge sharing from the older kids to the younger ones, and it removed barriers for friendships. Some of my best friends back then where older than I was. That would never happen in middle or high school.
Finally, I don't think it's perfect. Because we were all expected to join a traditional school after grade 6, the school made some effort to make sure that the outgoing class had covered all the basic requirements (a not necessarily a simple thing since we had great liberty of pursuing what was interesting to us).
All in all, I would strongly recommend it.
Damn, that part about being excited to learn and share knowledge with your peers only to be shouted down dredged up some memories. Most American schools are so regimented that any exploration of knowledge is actually sneered down. How did our communities let it get so bad...
In my public and private school experience it was both the other kids in the class who didn't like to be outshined as well as (some, not all) of the teachers who couldn't be bothered with anything outside of the textbook and did not like to be questioned.
I recall once in 6th grade we were talking about marine sponges and the teacher had brought in one of those loofah sponges, passed it around and said that it was a sponge from the ocean. I raised my hand and said "no, that's a loofah. It's from a plant that's in the cucumber family. I know because my grandmother grows them." And he was like "No, this is a sponge from the ocean. Your grandmother can't grow these." There was no changing his mind and he didn't appreciate being contradicted.
I recall once in 6th grade we were talking about marine sponges and the teacher had brought in one of those loofah sponges, passed it around and said that it was a sponge from the ocean. I raised my hand and said "no, that's a loofah. It's from a plant that's in the cucumber family. I know because my grandmother grows them." And he was like "No, this is a sponge from the ocean. Your grandmother can't grow these." There was no changing his mind and he didn't appreciate being contradicted.
I had a teacher who insisted to my heterochromic classmate, looking him straight in the eyes, that it's not possible to have one brown eye and one half blue/half brown eye, because that's not how genetics work.
I don't understand why teachers are so often threatened by thoughtful children, but it's awfully sad.
I don't understand why teachers are so often threatened by thoughtful children, but it's awfully sad.
There was another case with a different science teacher where we were learning about weather in science class. The book showed a drawn pic of a rain gauge which had a funnel on top of it. Basically a glass cylinder with inches marked on it with a funnel on top to catch the rain. I asked the teacher: "Wouldn't that funnel mean it's catching more rain compared to the diameter of the cylinder and wouldn't that throw off the result making it look like there was more rain than there really was?" And he was adamant that with or without the funnel you'd get the same result.
Just look at their salaries [oublic school system]. Their pay weeds out quite a lot of good people
American private school salaries are often lower than equivalent public school salaries, because you don't need credentials to teach at a private school, and because private schools can be an easier work environment than public schools.
I did three years in education before switching to software development. I would have done a lot more if the pay was better and the schools provided more support to the teaching staff. Sometimes I feel like I'm wasting my time working on a bunch of worthless marketing websites instead of educating people but at least I can provide for my family and live a rich and fulfilling life outside of work.
I did three years in education before switching to software development. I would have done a lot more if the pay was better and the schools provided more support to the teaching staff. Sometimes I feel like I'm wasting my time working on a bunch of worthless marketing websites instead of educating people but at least I can provide for my family and live a rich and fulfilling life outside of work.
Better work environment, and private schools typically discount tuition significantly for the children of teachers. At current tuition rates, that's a massive benefit.
Because they are incompetent and limited in their knowledge.
Everything is about standardized tests, american schooos are depressing, and as an european who studied at OSU, but had other friends who went to MIT and Ucla and other famous universities, I think americans immensely overrate the quality and difficulty of american universities.
To us, it was impressive how simple tests and exams were, I saw ridiculous things like professors uploading test exams which contained like 90% of the questions.
To me it was absurd.
To us, it was impressive how simple tests and exams were, I saw ridiculous things like professors uploading test exams which contained like 90% of the questions.
To me it was absurd.
It all comes down to money. If professors make the subject hard, they don’t get students. No students is less money for the University and less opportunity for the professor to scope out potential thesis candidates.
There are some professors who make it hard. Generally those who have tenure don’t care and put down a shitload of work on students. Also, if you have a well funded lab that pays well you will have a lot more students willing to deal with a harder course.
Normal students want to zip thru and get to living. It’s sad - but its a tragedy of college being so expensive. It’s hard to take a risk on academic (mis)adventures that can crater your financial standing for life (yup for life - student loans cannot be written off during bankruptcy).
There are some professors who make it hard. Generally those who have tenure don’t care and put down a shitload of work on students. Also, if you have a well funded lab that pays well you will have a lot more students willing to deal with a harder course.
Normal students want to zip thru and get to living. It’s sad - but its a tragedy of college being so expensive. It’s hard to take a risk on academic (mis)adventures that can crater your financial standing for life (yup for life - student loans cannot be written off during bankruptcy).
In Europe it's no different, except we mostly only pay with time. Even without the "motivator" of student loans, most people enter university to party, pass tests and get out with paper that grants them access to better-paying or more interesting jobs. Learning is incidental.
I think that despite it being less obvious these days, it's still true: actually learning for the sake of knowing and understanding is a nerd thing. Even at universities, students who care are considered weird.
I think that despite it being less obvious these days, it's still true: actually learning for the sake of knowing and understanding is a nerd thing. Even at universities, students who care are considered weird.
Why learn complex stuff when you can zip thru coursework and party with friends, and get laid every week with different chicks, away from parents’ watching eye?
For a teenager with bursting hormones this becomes a trivial choice
For a teenager with bursting hormones this becomes a trivial choice
Widely true, though as an undergrad in the US I (fairly unusually) wrote and orally defended a 120pp anthropology thesis; as a Masters student in England I wrote a 40pp thesis that was worth only 20% of my overall marks, but sat in an exam hall and handwrote essays for three days (for 70%) while being proctored by a fellow in a robe wearing a sword... In general my British peers were better-spoken and better-read than most American students, but not actually better academically I don't think. I don't think most education produces consistently good results, but it makes a space for some people who are motivated.
It's how most exams and tests work and the emphasis on those (rather than learning) being the goal ruining it all.
American universities definitely have their great courses, but the fact that so much depends on money, makes teachers focus on funding first, publications second and teaching is very low on the priority and so is actually making sure students "understand", rather than "know".
American universities definitely have their great courses, but the fact that so much depends on money, makes teachers focus on funding first, publications second and teaching is very low on the priority and so is actually making sure students "understand", rather than "know".
> Most American schools are so regimented that any exploration of knowledge is actually sneered down.
America’s not special. Schools are very similarly run in every government school system I know of and almost all the others. https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=11375
> How did our communities let it get so bad...
If schools provide childcare and sort and rank the children a large majority of parents are satisfied.
America’s not special. Schools are very similarly run in every government school system I know of and almost all the others. https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=11375
> How did our communities let it get so bad...
If schools provide childcare and sort and rank the children a large majority of parents are satisfied.
We at the same time lament the fact that the primarily utility of most of our schools are subsidized governmental childcare and also praise the progress of society having liberated the women to be free to pursue the same endeavors as the men.
Perhaps future societies will go back to the drawing board and recognize communal, multi-generational living, where one was tightly integrated with some form of community provides everyone the greatest benefit and happiness, not being dual income wage slaves who leave mostly strangers and the state to raise their children.
Perhaps future societies will go back to the drawing board and recognize communal, multi-generational living, where one was tightly integrated with some form of community provides everyone the greatest benefit and happiness, not being dual income wage slaves who leave mostly strangers and the state to raise their children.
My school at least tried, we had separate programs for "gifted" students separate from kids who were just there for the babysitting. Kind of dystopian, but I was never mocked for wanting to learn something even though my school was in a bad area.
I sometimes feel like most people would rather drag people down to their level then let them run free.
Especially bad because it's not even gifted kids, it was literally just one class for the kids who wanted to be there with the rest of the classes being for the kids who didnt. Yet people want to act like it's discriminatory to just put effort in. Plenty of bad students in the gifted program, but they were there because the teachers saw them trying.
There was this NPR piece talking about Texas letting anyone graduating top of their high school to get college tuition. It didn’t matter how good the school itself is, compared to other schools.
It turned out that the kids who want to do well within their high school had a better chance of doing well in college, even if they had to take catch-up courses or get peer tutoring.
It turned out that the kids who want to do well within their high school had a better chance of doing well in college, even if they had to take catch-up courses or get peer tutoring.
When my oldest went to the local middle school, there were 4 classes from one elementary and 3 each from 2 more making 250 or so kids. It seemed like there would be advanced English, regular English, and remedial English. Maybe 15-20% on each side and 60% or so in the middle.
Absolutely not, because being put in the remedial class was "tracking" so there could be no separating kids by ability. My daughter was sent to the library about every other day because she got her work done the first day and it was supposed to take two or three.
I am sympathetic to the idea that when a student is a little behind at one point doesn't mean that they always will be. Maybe things are going on at home, maybe they don't have a home, etc.
But our local school system insists on treating them all the same, regardless of their abilities.
My advice to my kids was to take any AP class that you could. It would be harder but you'd be in a class where the other students wanted to learn and almost always the teacher wanted to teach.
Absolutely not, because being put in the remedial class was "tracking" so there could be no separating kids by ability. My daughter was sent to the library about every other day because she got her work done the first day and it was supposed to take two or three.
I am sympathetic to the idea that when a student is a little behind at one point doesn't mean that they always will be. Maybe things are going on at home, maybe they don't have a home, etc.
But our local school system insists on treating them all the same, regardless of their abilities.
My advice to my kids was to take any AP class that you could. It would be harder but you'd be in a class where the other students wanted to learn and almost always the teacher wanted to teach.
I did my last year of high school in a public US high school.
I took some AP classes and some regular classes. The AP classes were probably better or at least on par with my private school Mexican high school.
The regular classes were a grim perspective into the US education system.
It felt mostly like a daycare for young adults. The way they treated us was closer to how you treat infants than 17 year olds. There was little to no hope for learning from the teachers, and no expectation from the students. Cheating was rampant.
When I told my English teacher I had been admitted to UT Austin, his reaction was "no you weren't".
The US takes good care of university bound students, but does a pretend job for for those that are not on that track.
I took some AP classes and some regular classes. The AP classes were probably better or at least on par with my private school Mexican high school.
The regular classes were a grim perspective into the US education system.
It felt mostly like a daycare for young adults. The way they treated us was closer to how you treat infants than 17 year olds. There was little to no hope for learning from the teachers, and no expectation from the students. Cheating was rampant.
When I told my English teacher I had been admitted to UT Austin, his reaction was "no you weren't".
The US takes good care of university bound students, but does a pretend job for for those that are not on that track.
I had the same experience. They separated us "gifted" kids very early on.
I had no negative experiences other than being a bit out of touch with the culture of my area, which isn't necessarily a bad thing either.
I had mostly ok teachers and no problems learning or making friends. I recall there actually being a lot of free time to just study whatever we wanted most days. We never struggled on the mandatory standardized tests, so the system left us alone. It was very uneventful and boring.
I had no negative experiences other than being a bit out of touch with the culture of my area, which isn't necessarily a bad thing either.
I had mostly ok teachers and no problems learning or making friends. I recall there actually being a lot of free time to just study whatever we wanted most days. We never struggled on the mandatory standardized tests, so the system left us alone. It was very uneventful and boring.
I'll note that this comment assumes standardized education was somehow better in the past. We all have specific memories of being inspired by a teacher or something but that seems like a happy accident more than anything intentional.
The universal education system we have today was never meant to "inspire learning" or anything similar. It was designed as a vaccine for illiteracy across a handful of subjects. I would argue it continues to deliver on that goal quite well (all things considered).
As someone who never attended, what Montessori offers is more the University-style inspiration and idea of learning for the sake of learning. This sounds amazing for the right people but I find it unlikely it could ever be universal.
Students who go to Montessori will have parent who believe in education in one way or another. The students will learn these values from their parents and so there's an inherent selection bias in the attendees and the positive outcomes.
However, education is not universally valued across our society. Public school exists for everyone to hit that minimum literacy bar.
What would be great is something like Montessori for every student who wants it. A different style of school universally available for the families that value it.
The universal education system we have today was never meant to "inspire learning" or anything similar. It was designed as a vaccine for illiteracy across a handful of subjects. I would argue it continues to deliver on that goal quite well (all things considered).
As someone who never attended, what Montessori offers is more the University-style inspiration and idea of learning for the sake of learning. This sounds amazing for the right people but I find it unlikely it could ever be universal.
Students who go to Montessori will have parent who believe in education in one way or another. The students will learn these values from their parents and so there's an inherent selection bias in the attendees and the positive outcomes.
However, education is not universally valued across our society. Public school exists for everyone to hit that minimum literacy bar.
What would be great is something like Montessori for every student who wants it. A different style of school universally available for the families that value it.
There’s a lot that could be say about it, but I think John Taylor Gatto said much of it. The current system does not really do the literacy thing well either.
There are also some exciting things happening in the unschooled and regenerative education space. The main thing though, is kids who develop into adults with intrinsic motivation and capable of determining the wise choices for themselves, their children, and community.
There are also some exciting things happening in the unschooled and regenerative education space. The main thing though, is kids who develop into adults with intrinsic motivation and capable of determining the wise choices for themselves, their children, and community.
I came across this quote recently by John Holt (unschooling movement):
"We can best help children learn, not by deciding what we think they should learn and thinking of ingenious ways to teach it to them, but by making the world, as far as we can, accessible to them, paying serious attention to what they do, answering their questions -- if they have any -- and helping them explore the things they are most interested in."
"We can best help children learn, not by deciding what we think they should learn and thinking of ingenious ways to teach it to them, but by making the world, as far as we can, accessible to them, paying serious attention to what they do, answering their questions -- if they have any -- and helping them explore the things they are most interested in."
> Damn, that part about being excited to learn and share knowledge with your peers only to be shouted down dredged up some memories. Most American schools are so regimented that any exploration of knowledge is actually sneered down.
Actually I always thought most Americans share what they know, even if they aren't experts. Usually people from other cultures are more reserved and dont do this.
Actually I always thought most Americans share what they know, even if they aren't experts. Usually people from other cultures are more reserved and dont do this.
In middle school, my first year out of Montessori, I was shocked at how little other kids cared about learning.
...
I kept tabs more or less my classmates that came out of the Montessori, and I think they overall overperformed the non Montessori people in middle school and high school. Harder to gauge adulthood success.
Isn't this just as likely to be a selection effect? The kids who go to Montessori schools are not selected from the population at random. But public school kids are.
...
I kept tabs more or less my classmates that came out of the Montessori, and I think they overall overperformed the non Montessori people in middle school and high school. Harder to gauge adulthood success.
Isn't this just as likely to be a selection effect? The kids who go to Montessori schools are not selected from the population at random. But public school kids are.
This topic is really controversial and people usually have an axe to grind. I agree to an extent.
As a former parent and former board president of a small catholic PK-8 school, I'd say that parental involvement is the key differentiator, uniforms/behavior, faith teaching and teacher motivation are other big drivers there. The Montessori methods are a different path that works well as well. End of the day, we're all clever apes and will learn in a supportive environment.
Our kids in that school had access to fewer educational/enrichment resources, but tended to outperform their peers when they transitioned (mostly) to public high school. about 40% of the kids were scholarship funded, and those scholarships did not require religious affiliation. These were kids who would have significantly worse outcomes in public school, but they had parents committed to their success.
There are several key disadvantages.
- Parental involvement can transition into meddling.
- A kid who needs an IEP and services may not get it because the school doesn't offer the services and won't tell the family to leave OR the parent is in denial and the school isn't prepared to deal with it.
- Kids may be boxed out of sports as suburban schools usually have (corrupt) pay-to-play feeder programs.
As a parent, my goal is to get my child the best education that I have the ability to provide. Montessori and other private schools are a great way to do that. However, I don't think taxpayers should be paying for those options beyond core services (school nurses, etc)
As a former parent and former board president of a small catholic PK-8 school, I'd say that parental involvement is the key differentiator, uniforms/behavior, faith teaching and teacher motivation are other big drivers there. The Montessori methods are a different path that works well as well. End of the day, we're all clever apes and will learn in a supportive environment.
Our kids in that school had access to fewer educational/enrichment resources, but tended to outperform their peers when they transitioned (mostly) to public high school. about 40% of the kids were scholarship funded, and those scholarships did not require religious affiliation. These were kids who would have significantly worse outcomes in public school, but they had parents committed to their success.
There are several key disadvantages.
- Parental involvement can transition into meddling.
- A kid who needs an IEP and services may not get it because the school doesn't offer the services and won't tell the family to leave OR the parent is in denial and the school isn't prepared to deal with it.
- Kids may be boxed out of sports as suburban schools usually have (corrupt) pay-to-play feeder programs.
As a parent, my goal is to get my child the best education that I have the ability to provide. Montessori and other private schools are a great way to do that. However, I don't think taxpayers should be paying for those options beyond core services (school nurses, etc)
Statistically, there would be some 'Montessori' level(whatever that means) kids in the random student population. It's just they'd been beaten down by the public education system long before OP arrived.
That's totally plausible, I would just add that I attended private middle and high school.
But still I can see that parents that place kids in Montessori schools are a different population than those that place them in private schools.
But still I can see that parents that place kids in Montessori schools are a different population than those that place them in private schools.
> I also liked that they had children of various years in the same classroom. I think it promoted knowledge sharing from the older kids to the younger ones, and it removed barriers for friendships. Some of my best friends back then where older than I was. That would never happen in middle or high school.
In my own experience multi-year/grade classrooms seemed more fun and interesting, and I think there were social and educational benefits as well.
My perception is that in the US multi-year tends to be largely limited to elective courses, clubs, sports, and extracurricular activities.
(Unfortunately a typical "college preparatory" track in secondary school can interfere with elective courses such as arts courses or practical courses, both of which seem to be viewed as less important by many schools and college admissions departments. I wonder whether California proposition 28 will expand access to arts courses and activities?)
In my own experience multi-year/grade classrooms seemed more fun and interesting, and I think there were social and educational benefits as well.
My perception is that in the US multi-year tends to be largely limited to elective courses, clubs, sports, and extracurricular activities.
(Unfortunately a typical "college preparatory" track in secondary school can interfere with elective courses such as arts courses or practical courses, both of which seem to be viewed as less important by many schools and college admissions departments. I wonder whether California proposition 28 will expand access to arts courses and activities?)
Best school I went to divided classes between academic and social --- social classes (gym (physical education), social studies/history, homeroom, &c.) were attended at one's age/grade level --- for academic classes (English, science, math) one attended at one's grade level up to 4 grades ahead, until 8th grade when the cap was removed.
For students who finished high school courses, some teachers were certified by the local college to teach college level courses (all teachers at this school had at least a Master's degree) and there were arrangements to students to the college, or bring faculty from the college to the school, depending on the number of students taking a given class.
Many students when graduating from high school were simultaneously awarded college degrees.
For students who finished high school courses, some teachers were certified by the local college to teach college level courses (all teachers at this school had at least a Master's degree) and there were arrangements to students to the college, or bring faculty from the college to the school, depending on the number of students taking a given class.
Many students when graduating from high school were simultaneously awarded college degrees.
that’s sound awesome!
what school was that?
A tiny school outside of an Air Force Base in Mississippi --- the school got DoD funding for all the students from the base attending.
that should have been a research project on how to do school properly :-)
I bet some phd in education could easily have published a research paper on this.
Hard to say how much of this was the difference between public and private school though right? The montessori kids had parents who cared about education enough to pay the tuition.
Montessori is a very different approach. Plenty of Asian tiger moms who care about education, but they don’t necessarily use the Montessori approach, at home or otherwise.
A friend of mine put his (2) kids in montessori school, he said his daughter she loved going to school every day. When they moved there was no montessori school and the first day in a normal school she came home upset and said the kids don’t care, don’t listen, and they don’t know anything.
Eventually they moved again so they could put her back in montessori school.
Eventually they moved again so they could put her back in montessori school.
You’re probably conflating expensive private school vs. public school here.
As I said elsewhere, it's plausible but to a lesser degree, since I'm comparing private schools here. Montessori was probably more expensive and was probably more attractive to parents that cared a lot more.
> I was shocked at how little other kids cared about learning.
One of my children started public from 1-5 in Montessori and found the same (and at a somewhat selective public school).
One of my children started public from 1-5 in Montessori and found the same (and at a somewhat selective public school).
I was a troubled kid. Expelled from 2 kindergartens for disruptive behaviour. My parents tried Montessori, and it worked. They found out I was interested in mythology, so I apparently learned to read from the Greek myths. One of my friends was into cars, so they got him a pile of car showroom brochures and he learned to read from that.
There was a non-verbal autistic kid there, too. I played "clap-hands" with them every day, apparently the only human interaction (apart from their parents) that they had.
We moved when I was 5, and I went to a normal school after that. I don't remember much about it (all the above is stories my parents told me later). Luckily we moved to a small village where the teacher had enough time to continue giving me the personalised attention I clearly needed. Then I got shipped off to boarding school and the rest of my schooling is a dark, terrible mess of anger and violence.
It totally worked for me. I hated school, except that one.
There was a non-verbal autistic kid there, too. I played "clap-hands" with them every day, apparently the only human interaction (apart from their parents) that they had.
We moved when I was 5, and I went to a normal school after that. I don't remember much about it (all the above is stories my parents told me later). Luckily we moved to a small village where the teacher had enough time to continue giving me the personalised attention I clearly needed. Then I got shipped off to boarding school and the rest of my schooling is a dark, terrible mess of anger and violence.
It totally worked for me. I hated school, except that one.
I sometimes wonder about whether personalised teaching as a young student is overall good or bad, for students who then move on to a university with very large, impersonal classes (e.g. with more than 1000 students per class).
On the one hand, I think students in small classes can really become more confident and enthusiastic about learning in the long-term. But on the other, a shift to larger classes can be alienating (e.g. feedback from educators is less frequent). This could be mitigated by going to office hours, but there are plenty of minority experiences that stick where teaching assistants and professors are unwelcoming. The change could be less of a shock for students who went to large high schools, as they're more used to large classes.
Perhaps students who have the chance to grow up with individualized learning can opt for universities that have smaller classes, though it's not always possible when large public universities can often be much more affordable. I wonder if there is a way to prepare students from smaller schools with personalized education to do well at much larger educational institutions.
On the one hand, I think students in small classes can really become more confident and enthusiastic about learning in the long-term. But on the other, a shift to larger classes can be alienating (e.g. feedback from educators is less frequent). This could be mitigated by going to office hours, but there are plenty of minority experiences that stick where teaching assistants and professors are unwelcoming. The change could be less of a shock for students who went to large high schools, as they're more used to large classes.
Perhaps students who have the chance to grow up with individualized learning can opt for universities that have smaller classes, though it's not always possible when large public universities can often be much more affordable. I wonder if there is a way to prepare students from smaller schools with personalized education to do well at much larger educational institutions.
The graduates from my kids’s school which does a lot of personalized stuff, do disproportionately well at high school (not sure about college as there’s less data there). I think some of it is inculcating a sense of joy about learning so that even when there are obstacles (like institutional schooling), the kids will be motivated to learn anyway. (I’ve seen the Premack principle at work with my son where reading went from something that would be rewarded to something that served as a reward.)
I think it is also a greater level of self-confidence and trust through knowing what they are all about (and hence enjoy what they learn more).
So many kids (myself included) hit university not knowing what they should be doing (or what they've been learning actually requires at the 'next leve') because you're guided to broad and narrow learning curriculum and not following their specific interests intensely.
We see the chaotic, political, competitive and ranked corporate world as 'normal' instead of a terrible, poorly organised and dysfunctional system. It's not 'the real world,' it's a bubble that reinforces itself because we train kids to fit into it throughout their education.
So many kids (myself included) hit university not knowing what they should be doing (or what they've been learning actually requires at the 'next leve') because you're guided to broad and narrow learning curriculum and not following their specific interests intensely.
We see the chaotic, political, competitive and ranked corporate world as 'normal' instead of a terrible, poorly organised and dysfunctional system. It's not 'the real world,' it's a bubble that reinforces itself because we train kids to fit into it throughout their education.
I needed tutors for my college Computer Science and Math classes because the classroom setting wasn't enough for me. Add then add in study groups. I needed all of it, from big class to individual.
What kind of kindergarten expels children? It sounds at best grossly incompetent. Are you sure there was no other bias that played a role in their decision? It sounds rather unlikely you were the cause.
When they start having to spend 80% of their attention on one kid, it's a problem that needs to be addressed.
I say this as the parent of a kid who is right on the verge of being kicked out of preschool over that issue. I totally get it. I wish I knew how to help him. He has some great qualities, but he also requires constant attention and mentally draining correction from everyone that's involved in his life.
I say this as the parent of a kid who is right on the verge of being kicked out of preschool over that issue. I totally get it. I wish I knew how to help him. He has some great qualities, but he also requires constant attention and mentally draining correction from everyone that's involved in his life.
When a system misbehaves consistently, you stop attempting to force the system to behave and instead sit back and examine why it is misbehaving. If your wheel doesn't like to roll downhill and keeps veering off to the side, no matter how even the wheel is.. sometimes it's the hill.
One of the Montessori practices I'm a big fan of is observation. Quiet almost secret observation of the child. Ideally the child isn't aware you're there and you merely observe them act freely (in a safe environment for the child).
One of the Montessori practices I'm a big fan of is observation. Quiet almost secret observation of the child. Ideally the child isn't aware you're there and you merely observe them act freely (in a safe environment for the child).
You aren’t alone. Have a great kid but it’s non stop boundary pushing, arguments, stubbornness, and lots of frustration. Teacher makes a huge difference. Kindergarten just barely worked. First grade with a more active and creative teacher is much better, though still maddening at times.
You got this!
You got this!
This was me. I wish I could apologise to my parents for for what I put them through. Though, to be fair, I did spend a few years in therapy fixing what they put me through too. Families are difficult.
I went to a private Montessori school grades 3K-5, and my children have been or are in Montessori school grades 3K-6. As you might have guessed, I am a fan.
As most Montessori schools are private, my impression is that the variance in the quality of Montessori implementation varies considerably, but at a high level I have positive views of many of the same method characteristics as other comments:
As most Montessori schools are private, my impression is that the variance in the quality of Montessori implementation varies considerably, but at a high level I have positive views of many of the same method characteristics as other comments:
- mixed-age classes
- learner-driven scheduling/work
- non-test-centric evaluation
- etc.
- independence in both learning/working and life in general
- love of learning
- kindness towards others
- are you accredited by AMS, AMI and/or SAIS?
- are your teachers trained primarily through AMS or AMI?
- how long have your teachers been with the school, on average?
- where do students go after this school, and what are their outcomes (what colleges, high school honor graduates, etc.)?
- does the school do standardized testing that is accepted by the local school district or otherwise make it easy to transition to other schools after they age out?FWIW I just realized that my AMS/SAIS references are US-specific, so substitute relevant accrediting bodies for Montessori/private schools... AMI is international, though.
In the US, AMS vs AMI is a salient difference that is worth understanding... it's a bit of a which-linux-distro-is-best type holy war.
In the US, AMS vs AMI is a salient difference that is worth understanding... it's a bit of a which-linux-distro-is-best type holy war.
> As most Montessori schools are private, my impression is that the variance in the quality of Montessori implementation varies considerably
Having gone to a different kind of "alternative" school (Waldorf / Steiner), I agree 100%.
Variance in quality among teachers was pretty high, higher than my children's public schools.
Sadly my school was also used a bit as dumping ground for children who failed in the public school system, so at least in the later classes most of the newer students were below-average in performance, making progress slower and classes more boring.
Switching from an "alternative" to a public school (after 9 years for me) was a pretty big culture shock.
Having gone to a different kind of "alternative" school (Waldorf / Steiner), I agree 100%.
Variance in quality among teachers was pretty high, higher than my children's public schools.
Sadly my school was also used a bit as dumping ground for children who failed in the public school system, so at least in the later classes most of the newer students were below-average in performance, making progress slower and classes more boring.
Switching from an "alternative" to a public school (after 9 years for me) was a pretty big culture shock.
I have two children in Montessori and agree wholeheartedly with the above.
I would like to emphasize the check for AMS or AMI. Any school can all themselves a Montessori school, so I'd make sure it's at least certified in one of those two (not familiar with SAIS so cannot comment on that).
I would like to emphasize the check for AMS or AMI. Any school can all themselves a Montessori school, so I'd make sure it's at least certified in one of those two (not familiar with SAIS so cannot comment on that).
Thanks those are very helpful considerations and experience.
Thinking about which program to put my children in has opened a whole host of other questions such as one of your last one about what are their outcomes - which is how do I want to define the outcomes/expectations from the program aka my children going through the education system.
Thinking about which program to put my children in has opened a whole host of other questions such as one of your last one about what are their outcomes - which is how do I want to define the outcomes/expectations from the program aka my children going through the education system.
My son went through Montessori from ages 2 until 11 (finished grade 5). As with any other institution, it depends on the quality of teachers. He had 1 great teacher, one good teach, and 1 not so good teacher during his schooling. There are a couple of key factors which made us choose Montessori:
- mixed aged group classrooms. So in one year of the 3 year cycle, he is the younger child (and receives mentorship from his older buddies), and in year 3 of each cycle, he is the older buddie mentoring younger pupils. Since he has no siblings, this is a benefit to his development.
- Montessori follow the state curriculum, however they allow children to manage their own time. So if he wants to do math all day, he can, and the teacher is there more for project management and giving him assistance than to drive him by a strict 45 minute schedule. At the end of the week, he is supposed to accomplish the assigned work (regardless of which order he wants to do it in). This will help him in the future with his own project management and prioritising work loads (we hope).
- the parents sending their kids to Montessori are not of the Elitist breed. I wont explain what I mean by that here. Its better than Steiner type schools (my personal opinion).
Other than the above, there wasn't anything particular about Montessori compared regular State run schools.
- mixed aged group classrooms. So in one year of the 3 year cycle, he is the younger child (and receives mentorship from his older buddies), and in year 3 of each cycle, he is the older buddie mentoring younger pupils. Since he has no siblings, this is a benefit to his development.
- Montessori follow the state curriculum, however they allow children to manage their own time. So if he wants to do math all day, he can, and the teacher is there more for project management and giving him assistance than to drive him by a strict 45 minute schedule. At the end of the week, he is supposed to accomplish the assigned work (regardless of which order he wants to do it in). This will help him in the future with his own project management and prioritising work loads (we hope).
- the parents sending their kids to Montessori are not of the Elitist breed. I wont explain what I mean by that here. Its better than Steiner type schools (my personal opinion).
Other than the above, there wasn't anything particular about Montessori compared regular State run schools.
> the parents sending their kids to Montessori are not of the Elitist breed.
I think that will depend on the school. My daughter went to two, on opposite sides of the country: one was filled with super nice parents, the other had a lot more pretension.
I think that will depend on the school. My daughter went to two, on opposite sides of the country: one was filled with super nice parents, the other had a lot more pretension.
My wife was a Montessori 'lifer', this topic actually came up in conversation no our second date, and our child is currently the happiest Montessori pre-k kid, perhaps ever.
As others have pointed out, the Montessori program is strong, but the execution is everything.
FWIW my wife, who is in her 40s, regularly visits her Montessori campus when visiting her hometown, and is friends with several of her classmates from the time, all of whom might give you the impression that Montessori is some sort of MLM thing to judge by their unbridled enthusiasm.
EDIT - we plan to start our child in public kindergarten, because money. Tough choice, but that $12k isn't peanuts to us.
As others have pointed out, the Montessori program is strong, but the execution is everything.
FWIW my wife, who is in her 40s, regularly visits her Montessori campus when visiting her hometown, and is friends with several of her classmates from the time, all of whom might give you the impression that Montessori is some sort of MLM thing to judge by their unbridled enthusiasm.
EDIT - we plan to start our child in public kindergarten, because money. Tough choice, but that $12k isn't peanuts to us.
Both my kids transitioned from Montessori to public school at 11 (grade 5) in the US. 13 and 16 now.
+ Love of learning and self-driven discovery
+ Top of class in pretty much all subjects
+ Comfortable giving presentations
+ Comfortable working in groups
+ At ease working with younger students/children and essentially mentoring them
+ Excellent handwriting
+ Respect for teachers
- Difficulty with testing that involves framing the questions in an intentionally deceptive manner
- Difficult transition to the cliques and more aggressive social dynamics of public school
- Tough for them to deal with the way many students treat their teachers and behave in general in public school
I would recommend, that a year or 2 before the kids transition they start doing standardized tests and worksheets to get acclimated to that. It's a big shock otherwise.
Overall my kids loved their time in Montessori and wish the program had gone through high school.
+ Love of learning and self-driven discovery
+ Top of class in pretty much all subjects
+ Comfortable giving presentations
+ Comfortable working in groups
+ At ease working with younger students/children and essentially mentoring them
+ Excellent handwriting
+ Respect for teachers
- Difficulty with testing that involves framing the questions in an intentionally deceptive manner
- Difficult transition to the cliques and more aggressive social dynamics of public school
- Tough for them to deal with the way many students treat their teachers and behave in general in public school
I would recommend, that a year or 2 before the kids transition they start doing standardized tests and worksheets to get acclimated to that. It's a big shock otherwise.
Overall my kids loved their time in Montessori and wish the program had gone through high school.
> - Difficult transition to the cliques and more aggressive social dynamics of public school
Am I naive in thinking that the aggressive social dynamics of public school adds no value whatsoever to a child's or teenager's development?
Like, _why_ would anyone want to put their children through that? Is it _really_ integral to a person's social development to understand how to interact with bullies (worst case)?
I admit that I am rather nihilistic about public schooling, but I'm open to changing my mind.
Am I naive in thinking that the aggressive social dynamics of public school adds no value whatsoever to a child's or teenager's development?
Like, _why_ would anyone want to put their children through that? Is it _really_ integral to a person's social development to understand how to interact with bullies (worst case)?
I admit that I am rather nihilistic about public schooling, but I'm open to changing my mind.
I agree that a lot of it's needless and painful, but there's some merit in knowing how to defend yourself (physically, mentally and emotionally). There's a lot of the petty BS that you learn from in school that transposes to adult life. I hate watching my kids deal with it, but I'd be remiss in raising them if I didn't prepare them for that.
I was home schooled all the way through til college - never went to any regular school. I have never regretted that, and never felt that I am missing out on any skills necessary for dealing with functional adults. Indeed I see the painful impacts and lasting damage those experiences had on some of my friends, and I am glad I never had to experience it.
Kids are cruel to each other because they do not yet know any better. They are still developing empathy and have not yet learned social skills. Kids in mixed-age environments can (and do) take their cues from older children and adults; kids who are isolated into the bizarre, historically nonexistent single-age environments found in the modern school system do not have that advantage, and accordingly tend to brutalize each other. Outside of prison there is nothing like it in adult life.
Kids are cruel to each other because they do not yet know any better. They are still developing empathy and have not yet learned social skills. Kids in mixed-age environments can (and do) take their cues from older children and adults; kids who are isolated into the bizarre, historically nonexistent single-age environments found in the modern school system do not have that advantage, and accordingly tend to brutalize each other. Outside of prison there is nothing like it in adult life.
Just want to point out that adults can be just as cruel or even crueler than children with just as little empathy. I don't believe or buy the idea that it just a kid thing. We live in this myth that adults are more mature but interacting with society dispels that myth drastically quick, in my experience.
I think I see a lot more kindness as an adult, but I think this is almost exclusively due to selection effects.
I do not see that kindness at the airport or the grocery store, or most other instances that are closer to a random sampling of the US adult population.
I do not see that kindness at the airport or the grocery store, or most other instances that are closer to a random sampling of the US adult population.
I think the idea is that everyone has to learn to be a good person. Most kids haven't yet but will eventually. some never will.
>There's a lot of the petty BS that you learn from in school that transposes to adult life.
No, you learn maladaptive patterns. Your options are artificially constrained. Most of the ways a grown adult would deal with e.g. bullies are just not available to you.
Take physical violence for example. As an adult, if you're threatened with physical violence you have the options to:
- Get out of there. But kids can't do this because they're physically confined to the same classroom with the same people, every day. And obviously you're not allowed to just leave the school when you want to.
- Fight back. Risky, but you at least won't be punished by the courts if you can argue self-defense. But kids can't do this because "zero tolerance" policies punish both the aggressor and victim, by design, if the victim fights back
- Call the police. Kids can't do this, police don't care about schoolyard disputes. Snitching to a teacher just gets you bullied even more.
- Talk the person down. Maybe this works, but in a school they'll be back again the next day, and you'll have to do it again, and again, and again. Adult interactions are not so predictably repeated, unless in some other highly institutionalized setting like the military or a prison (guess which places also have problems with violent bullying).
Adults can, well, solve their problems like adults. Schoolkids literally aren't allowed to solve their problems like adults. Fuck, they're not even allowed to go to the toilet without asking someone first.
Is there any wonder they develop behavioral pathologies to cope: passivity, social withdrawal, self-harm, proactive aggression, self-sabotage, etc etc.
And I wonder how much of adult suffering comes down from not un-learning bad behavioral patterns learned in school? How many people have put up with being treated like garbage for years (at work, in a relationship, etc), because they haven't internalized that they don't need to ask an authority figure to be allowed to leave?
No, you learn maladaptive patterns. Your options are artificially constrained. Most of the ways a grown adult would deal with e.g. bullies are just not available to you.
Take physical violence for example. As an adult, if you're threatened with physical violence you have the options to:
- Get out of there. But kids can't do this because they're physically confined to the same classroom with the same people, every day. And obviously you're not allowed to just leave the school when you want to.
- Fight back. Risky, but you at least won't be punished by the courts if you can argue self-defense. But kids can't do this because "zero tolerance" policies punish both the aggressor and victim, by design, if the victim fights back
- Call the police. Kids can't do this, police don't care about schoolyard disputes. Snitching to a teacher just gets you bullied even more.
- Talk the person down. Maybe this works, but in a school they'll be back again the next day, and you'll have to do it again, and again, and again. Adult interactions are not so predictably repeated, unless in some other highly institutionalized setting like the military or a prison (guess which places also have problems with violent bullying).
Adults can, well, solve their problems like adults. Schoolkids literally aren't allowed to solve their problems like adults. Fuck, they're not even allowed to go to the toilet without asking someone first.
Is there any wonder they develop behavioral pathologies to cope: passivity, social withdrawal, self-harm, proactive aggression, self-sabotage, etc etc.
And I wonder how much of adult suffering comes down from not un-learning bad behavioral patterns learned in school? How many people have put up with being treated like garbage for years (at work, in a relationship, etc), because they haven't internalized that they don't need to ask an authority figure to be allowed to leave?
I never had the opportunity to go to more "not normal" school like Montessori, and I ended learning rather quickly, that at least in normal private schools, the solution to any problem, is violence. If that is not working, then even more violence.
At some point I had to defend myself from a bully (that probably had a awful home life, since that guy managed to come home to school 7:00 in the morning already drunk, multiple times) by bashing the guy with a metal table and then threatening to kill him with a knife. Only then, he stopped bothering me.
Also I knew more than one guy that admired Columbine guys, their reason is that it was a good way (in their minds of course) of both getting out of their shitty life and taking revenge at same time.
Thankfully, now that I am adult, all problems so far I could solve by just talking to people, no tables, knives, planks or chains necessary.
Note: I went to "good" private schools, thus nobody died or got seriously injured, but I have friends that went to public schools, and one of them for example was forced to cause serious injury when 3 older students ambushed him right outside the school, and the only thing he had to defend himself was his skateboard, so he proceeded to hit them with the metal axis where you attach the wheels, broke half of the teeth of one guy, caved in one of the temples of another, and broke the shoulder and one knee of the third, after that the school started to have the police patrol near the school to prevent a repeat of this. Also that school banned skateboards, yoyos, long rulers (specially a particular metal ruler distributed as souvenir during a political campaign, that people found out you could sharpen and use as a decent machete) and spinning tops (specially those with metal tip, one kid made a hole in another kid head with one).
At some point I had to defend myself from a bully (that probably had a awful home life, since that guy managed to come home to school 7:00 in the morning already drunk, multiple times) by bashing the guy with a metal table and then threatening to kill him with a knife. Only then, he stopped bothering me.
Also I knew more than one guy that admired Columbine guys, their reason is that it was a good way (in their minds of course) of both getting out of their shitty life and taking revenge at same time.
Thankfully, now that I am adult, all problems so far I could solve by just talking to people, no tables, knives, planks or chains necessary.
Note: I went to "good" private schools, thus nobody died or got seriously injured, but I have friends that went to public schools, and one of them for example was forced to cause serious injury when 3 older students ambushed him right outside the school, and the only thing he had to defend himself was his skateboard, so he proceeded to hit them with the metal axis where you attach the wheels, broke half of the teeth of one guy, caved in one of the temples of another, and broke the shoulder and one knee of the third, after that the school started to have the police patrol near the school to prevent a repeat of this. Also that school banned skateboards, yoyos, long rulers (specially a particular metal ruler distributed as souvenir during a political campaign, that people found out you could sharpen and use as a decent machete) and spinning tops (specially those with metal tip, one kid made a hole in another kid head with one).
What the hell? When & where were you guys going to school?
I went to a rough inner-city school and there was literally nothing like this. The fights were all between people who were already involved.
I went to a rough inner-city school and there was literally nothing like this. The fights were all between people who were already involved.
I'm honestly confused by many of the comments I find in this thread re: bullying.
I went to a pretty rough school (repeated fights, people I went to school with murdering people, etc.) and I basically was never even once threatened with violence. All the bullying is through words and making fun of people, etc.
Is physical bullying of this sort actually that common or more media depiction?
I went to a pretty rough school (repeated fights, people I went to school with murdering people, etc.) and I basically was never even once threatened with violence. All the bullying is through words and making fun of people, etc.
Is physical bullying of this sort actually that common or more media depiction?
Parent commenter, for me there wasn't much violent bullying in my school. I just used those examples because they're likely to resonate with more people. It isn't that uncommon. But my overall point applies to other things as well.
- work-life balance. we expect kids to do "homework", but we don't expect adults to do work outside of actual working hours. we call those places "toxic working environments" and avoid them if we have any sense. I actually have more time to myself as an adult than I did as a kid.
- doing things only so that they can be graded for the approval of some authority figure, rather than because they are intrinsically worthwhile or enjoyable
- a peer group artificially constrained to be only of kids within a year of your age. interacting with kids a few years older or younger is out of the norm, friendships between year groups are rare. that's not how adult life works. I have a pet theory that so much bad behavior in schools is caused by this age stratification.
- work-life balance. we expect kids to do "homework", but we don't expect adults to do work outside of actual working hours. we call those places "toxic working environments" and avoid them if we have any sense. I actually have more time to myself as an adult than I did as a kid.
- doing things only so that they can be graded for the approval of some authority figure, rather than because they are intrinsically worthwhile or enjoyable
- a peer group artificially constrained to be only of kids within a year of your age. interacting with kids a few years older or younger is out of the norm, friendships between year groups are rare. that's not how adult life works. I have a pet theory that so much bad behavior in schools is caused by this age stratification.
I would generally agree with you. However, unfortunately, a lot of organizations tend to mimic these exact same social structures. It may not be as aggressive because we're adults now, but understanding how to navigate that and when something is toxic can be a helpful skill.
But why do they need this from public school over say any other social ... activity (?). For example sports.
I am genuinely questioning whether public school makes children socially mature rather than only being a traumatic experience for many pupils, for no other reason than that public schooling is the default choice.
I am genuinely questioning whether public school makes children socially mature rather than only being a traumatic experience for many pupils, for no other reason than that public schooling is the default choice.
No you're right, there is no other reason than public schooling being the default choice. Which is why its necessary. It's self fulfilling.
It's the choice that everyone goes through. So unless you want your children to be unable to adapt to the people that were shaped through that horrible system, you will need to introduce them to that system in some capacity. Sports are not really enough. School is like day job for kids until they're 18. Everyone goes through the same standardized garbage, and they will have to live their lives with other people who went through the same standardized garbage.
Your only choice is to pay exorbitantly so they don't go through that garbage, but will face adulthood with 99% of the population that did, which can have mixed results.
It's the choice that everyone goes through. So unless you want your children to be unable to adapt to the people that were shaped through that horrible system, you will need to introduce them to that system in some capacity. Sports are not really enough. School is like day job for kids until they're 18. Everyone goes through the same standardized garbage, and they will have to live their lives with other people who went through the same standardized garbage.
Your only choice is to pay exorbitantly so they don't go through that garbage, but will face adulthood with 99% of the population that did, which can have mixed results.
What school does is provide an environment of ~8hrs/day to pressure test their social skills and build coping mechanisms (good and bad). You do get that to a lesser degree from other environments such as sports and in the end it's all transferable learning. Playing on a team vs training an individual sport with a club gives very different social lessons and shapes them accordingly.
But I don't think school is what makes them mature as much as it's the adults that they look up to and emulate that shape that. And whether it traumatic can depend on how they're able to internalize it.
But I don't think school is what makes them mature as much as it's the adults that they look up to and emulate that shape that. And whether it traumatic can depend on how they're able to internalize it.
There's value to teaching people how to handle conflict, in a safe, low-stakes environment. There's always going to be assholes in life, you need to learn how to deal with them.
The problem is when the degree of conflict escalates past that safe, low-stakes level (which it does for some people, in some schools). We don't have everyone spend a month in prison, as part of their education, for instance, because it wouldn't be safe, or low-stakes, and would permanently damage people.
The problem is when the degree of conflict escalates past that safe, low-stakes level (which it does for some people, in some schools). We don't have everyone spend a month in prison, as part of their education, for instance, because it wouldn't be safe, or low-stakes, and would permanently damage people.
How will your child cope in prison if they've never experienced school?
I agree with your conclusion about aggressive social dynamics of public schools add nothing to child's development, and I base my opinion on my own experiences. I pretty much hated school - not for what I was meant to learn there but because of the aggression. That's main reason I put my kids through montessori, to spare them that experience I had to go through, and which contributed nothing to my development.
The reason that's valuable IMO is that once you get into the Real World, you are going to run into these complex social situations and need to be able to navigate them with grace. Especially in the business world.
I dont think anywhere i have worked was anything like my high school.
Except in the most generic sense that there are lots of people and occasionally there are petty disputes.
Except in the most generic sense that there are lots of people and occasionally there are petty disputes.
I don't know how to frame this that doesn't come off very Stockholm Syndrome, but ... the environment of human beings is not the jungle or the tundra, it is other human beings. As such, being able to navigate among the majority -- whatever they are -- has some kind of utility.
I'll throw in a side of "Americans are often 'stuck' in high school on some developmental level." I couldn't necessarily say the same about people in Europe or anywhere else.
I'll throw in a side of "Americans are often 'stuck' in high school on some developmental level." I couldn't necessarily say the same about people in Europe or anywhere else.
I spent two years in a rough-ish public school. It was the hardest period in my life but it taught me very much about valuing people from all walks of life and especially on adapting my behavior to get positive outcomes in any social setting. I can absolutely see how that experience is lacking on some of my friends that spent all their lives in protected environments.
Fair point but can't that be worked around through having parents teach their kids to value people from all walks of life? True the lack of exposure does play a factor but I would wager it falls heavily on what parents hand down to their children and how they perceive the world.
Eh, I went to an elite private university after attending a not-so-good urban public school.
Lack of exposure is a massive factor and even with good intentions it does not really make up for it.
Most of the kids I went to school with were oblivious about poverty or even just being mindful of different socieconomic circumstances. stuff like
"yeah, let's just have all of our friends go out to a fancy restaurant and split the bill for every single one of our birthdays"
Lack of exposure is a massive factor and even with good intentions it does not really make up for it.
Most of the kids I went to school with were oblivious about poverty or even just being mindful of different socieconomic circumstances. stuff like
"yeah, let's just have all of our friends go out to a fancy restaurant and split the bill for every single one of our birthdays"
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Gotta put your kids through the damage of school social dynamics so that as adults they'll be equipped to interact with other people who were also damaged by it.
This is not how it works, though. Your damage compounds with the damage of others, it doesn't negate it.
Kids who go through Montessori, Waldorf, etc, have a much better foundation for dealing with damaged people. If you start from a place of self-respect and expect the same of others, you can recognize when others aren't going to reciprocate and you can cope with that.
Kids who go through Montessori, Waldorf, etc, have a much better foundation for dealing with damaged people. If you start from a place of self-respect and expect the same of others, you can recognize when others aren't going to reciprocate and you can cope with that.
I mean, for what it’s worth, I’m not being serious :).
Handling social conflict is a reality of adult life.
Just want to point out this sounds more like a private->public pros and cons list. I’m not doubting it at all, just not sure if it’s due to the Montessori method. Most Montessori’s are or are operate similar to the private setting.
I attended a small, private, religious, non-Montessori school through middle+high school.
While the atmosphere wasn't toxic like I hear people say about public school, few of my peers were interested in learning, excelled academically, etc.
A non-negligible portion of the kids in my school were the ones kicked out of the public school for grades or troublemaking. I think they did better at my school, but that population affected the academic experience. My brother went to another nearby religious school and it was the same.
My school was caught in a loop of poor funding -> sub-par teachers -> less enrollment -> less funding.
I expect a school focused specifically on self-actualization and skill-building to have better results than an arbitrary private school.
While the atmosphere wasn't toxic like I hear people say about public school, few of my peers were interested in learning, excelled academically, etc.
A non-negligible portion of the kids in my school were the ones kicked out of the public school for grades or troublemaking. I think they did better at my school, but that population affected the academic experience. My brother went to another nearby religious school and it was the same.
My school was caught in a loop of poor funding -> sub-par teachers -> less enrollment -> less funding.
I expect a school focused specifically on self-actualization and skill-building to have better results than an arbitrary private school.
This is a good point. "Private" encompasses a wide variety of experiences and quality. My private experience with my kid is of the somewhat elitist variety. They simply would not accept expelled students from any school. They heavily curate enrollment to create an environment for success. They're building a cooperative community of Families that will reinforce the holistic development of each student. Parental involvement is required and with fairly high expectations.
If you just throw kids together and expect the syllabus/curriculum to prevail, you'll quickly find the Lord of the Flies elements of public school social dynamics come into play and for a child often are more important than academics. At that point, simply being "private" has no advantage.
If you just throw kids together and expect the syllabus/curriculum to prevail, you'll quickly find the Lord of the Flies elements of public school social dynamics come into play and for a child often are more important than academics. At that point, simply being "private" has no advantage.
> At that point, simply being "private" has no advantage.
Based on the experience given above as well as my own experience, I'm going to guess the poster was talking about Catholic parochial schools. Catholic parochial schools were the original public schools in North America and still operate as such today, except obviously no public funding in the United States (they do in some provinces of Canada).
Either way, they'll accept basically anyone. However, they do consistently give better results anyway, even adjusting for income and social status. Actually, the effect is most pronounced in the lowest incomes. The richer you are, the less difference parochial v public makes (of course going to super cushy private schools puts you at an advantage).
Based on the experience given above as well as my own experience, I'm going to guess the poster was talking about Catholic parochial schools. Catholic parochial schools were the original public schools in North America and still operate as such today, except obviously no public funding in the United States (they do in some provinces of Canada).
Either way, they'll accept basically anyone. However, they do consistently give better results anyway, even adjusting for income and social status. Actually, the effect is most pronounced in the lowest incomes. The richer you are, the less difference parochial v public makes (of course going to super cushy private schools puts you at an advantage).
There's definitely a strong overlap in that sense. Probably also because these institutions tend to have smaller class sizes which allow better teach/student interaction and more time. Public schooling in the US could do this too, but has been hamstrung for decades.
In math the kids definitely leveraged the binomial/trinomial tools, beads and other tactile methods to have a better understanding of the concepts of mult/div/exponentials/roots long before they would have approached in the standard US arithmetic methods. They were also doing algebra and geometry by the end of Montessori.
Montessori also spends a lot of time working on holistic views with regards to science and history and then give the kids the freedom to do their own research and projects on the topics. The normal school models tend to take more of a cause-effect + memorize the dates method as that's what tracks the testing. It's not generally till university that they then go back to something that usually requires critical thinking.
On critical thinking there's an emphasis there in Montessori on involving the kids in asking more questions and then building a model to analyze and defend their position. Public school is optimizing for learn by rote and it's a culture shock going to Uni where they back to something that's utilizing critical analysis.
My older child is in IB at the moment and they're using much of this as it's taught in more of Uni style.
In math the kids definitely leveraged the binomial/trinomial tools, beads and other tactile methods to have a better understanding of the concepts of mult/div/exponentials/roots long before they would have approached in the standard US arithmetic methods. They were also doing algebra and geometry by the end of Montessori.
Montessori also spends a lot of time working on holistic views with regards to science and history and then give the kids the freedom to do their own research and projects on the topics. The normal school models tend to take more of a cause-effect + memorize the dates method as that's what tracks the testing. It's not generally till university that they then go back to something that usually requires critical thinking.
On critical thinking there's an emphasis there in Montessori on involving the kids in asking more questions and then building a model to analyze and defend their position. Public school is optimizing for learn by rote and it's a culture shock going to Uni where they back to something that's utilizing critical analysis.
My older child is in IB at the moment and they're using much of this as it's taught in more of Uni style.
By IB do you mean international baccalaureate? Do you recommend that over standard curricula?
Yes and yes. All of the teachers at the IB here hold a masters or higher in their topics and teach it like it would be at uni. Only one of high schools around here offer anything near it in course depth and focus.
I also like that philosophy is compulsory, I feel that the humanities are under served in our current school systems.
I also like that philosophy is compulsory, I feel that the humanities are under served in our current school systems.
Thanks for sharing - those are some very valuable insights. If it's not to personal to ask what sex are your children?
I suspect transitioning out may be slightly different depending on a large variety of factors but maybe how children are raised to socialize in a traditional sense. To be fair its been many years since I've been in school but there's probably still a bit of a lean for activity based socializing for boys vs girls but hopefully that's changed.
I suspect transitioning out may be slightly different depending on a large variety of factors but maybe how children are raised to socialize in a traditional sense. To be fair its been many years since I've been in school but there's probably still a bit of a lean for activity based socializing for boys vs girls but hopefully that's changed.
deathclassic(2)
Yes, I went to a Montessori school through 6th grade (now 25 years old). I have mixed feelings about the experience.
I agree that it did well to set my up academically. I ended up going to middle/high schools that were relatively average academically, so I was pretty strong in all subjects in comparison to my peers. Ultimately I went to a very prestigious college and now work in a wonderful finance job I love. However in the many years of therapy I’ve had as an adult, I continue to identify Montessori school as a foundational contributor to my social anxiety, and ultimately my ensuing clinical depression over a lack of social life which haunted most of my college years.
My Montessori school had about 15-25 kids / class year. Some of the larger years were split into two groups with separate teachers. Every year, maybe one or two kids left to go to other schools and one or two new kids joined, but for the most part I grew up with the same core set of children for seven years. I honestly believe this had a permanent negative effect on my ability to socialize and form new friendships that I am only barely beginning to correct over a decade later. Admittedly I did not participate in any extracurricular outside of Montessori school (particularly because it had its own after-school programs). So when I transitioned to a public school for middle/high school, it was a sharp culture shock and I definitely struggled to fit in.
I think Montessori schools are worthwhile academically, but you should be careful to keep your children in contact with other kids outside the Montessori bubble.
I agree that it did well to set my up academically. I ended up going to middle/high schools that were relatively average academically, so I was pretty strong in all subjects in comparison to my peers. Ultimately I went to a very prestigious college and now work in a wonderful finance job I love. However in the many years of therapy I’ve had as an adult, I continue to identify Montessori school as a foundational contributor to my social anxiety, and ultimately my ensuing clinical depression over a lack of social life which haunted most of my college years.
My Montessori school had about 15-25 kids / class year. Some of the larger years were split into two groups with separate teachers. Every year, maybe one or two kids left to go to other schools and one or two new kids joined, but for the most part I grew up with the same core set of children for seven years. I honestly believe this had a permanent negative effect on my ability to socialize and form new friendships that I am only barely beginning to correct over a decade later. Admittedly I did not participate in any extracurricular outside of Montessori school (particularly because it had its own after-school programs). So when I transitioned to a public school for middle/high school, it was a sharp culture shock and I definitely struggled to fit in.
I think Montessori schools are worthwhile academically, but you should be careful to keep your children in contact with other kids outside the Montessori bubble.
At least in my country (Romania), the norm in all public schools is to have the same set of ~30 children you'll go to school every day with from grade 0-1 (6-7 years old) to grade 8 (14 years old). Since there are very few to no electives, you'll spend ~all of your time in school with all of these kids every day for 8 years - and virtually everyone in the country has this experience (private schools are very rare).
Edit to add: the whole school would have significantly more people, typically around 5-10 30-pupil classes for each of the 8-9 years. So perhaps the difference is the total number of children in the same school - though typically interaction between different classes, even of the same year, was far less than within-class.
Edit to add: the whole school would have significantly more people, typically around 5-10 30-pupil classes for each of the 8-9 years. So perhaps the difference is the total number of children in the same school - though typically interaction between different classes, even of the same year, was far less than within-class.
Same here in Sweden. All school is like this. Not just Montessorri.
It used to be the norm to mix up the groups every three years, when transitioning between low/mid/high school stadium.
I appreciated that change of social dynamics every time.
I appreciated that change of social dynamics every time.
Same in China (Shanghai). Same 30 to 35 students in the same class would do 1st to 6th grade. Then you'd usually go to a different school for 7th to 9th grades, then take a test to get into a high school for 10th to 12th grades. All three would have the same class you'd stick with, usually with way more intra-class interaction than inter-class interaction.
Sports was usually one thing that was more inter-class, but that was it.
Sports was usually one thing that was more inter-class, but that was it.
Yeah, i went to public school in canada. It was all the same kids up to grade 8. Each year had basically 2 classes of about 27 kids each.
I had never heard of Montessori schools before this thread so I'm sure there is more going on than I'm aware of - but I wanted to point out that what you describe here:
> school had about 15-25 kids / class year. Some of the larger years were split into two groups with separate teachers. Every year, maybe one or two kids left to go to other schools and one or two new kids joined, but for the most part I grew up with the same core set of children for several years.
seems perfectly normal from a UK primary school perspective (up to age 11 or 12 depending on the area). I'm surprised to hear that kids younger than that age would be expected to have larger peer groups in the US.
> school had about 15-25 kids / class year. Some of the larger years were split into two groups with separate teachers. Every year, maybe one or two kids left to go to other schools and one or two new kids joined, but for the most part I grew up with the same core set of children for several years.
seems perfectly normal from a UK primary school perspective (up to age 11 or 12 depending on the area). I'm surprised to hear that kids younger than that age would be expected to have larger peer groups in the US.
Huh, is that the maximum number of students of the same age? To be clear, the Montessori school I went to had a little over 100 students with all 6 class years combined.
For context, in the US many public middle/high schools are like two orders of magnitude larger per class year. Many schools have like 1000 kids / class year.
For context, in the US many public middle/high schools are like two orders of magnitude larger per class year. Many schools have like 1000 kids / class year.
It would be fairly typical for a UK primary school (up to age 11) to have up to 30 kids per class, but only 1 class per year - so ~210 kids total. Some schools have 2 classes per year, so double that for 400-500 in the whole school - but that many is rare in my experience.
Secondary school (11-16) is more commonly around 30 per class, 7-12 classes per year, 5 year groups in the school - so 1000-1500 kids. 16-18 can either be at the school (which would then be a smaller cohort than the 15-16 year group due to some people going elsewhere), or an external college which is highly variable in size.
Secondary school (11-16) is more commonly around 30 per class, 7-12 classes per year, 5 year groups in the school - so 1000-1500 kids. 16-18 can either be at the school (which would then be a smaller cohort than the 15-16 year group due to some people going elsewhere), or an external college which is highly variable in size.
In France, a typical primary school will have between 100 and 200 kids total maybe 250 in Paris but that would be a large one. A middle school will be between 400 and 800 students and a high school around 1000.
1000 kids / class year is unheard of. That seems huge to me to the point I can’t understand how it would work. I knew mostly everyone in my class year up to high school and even then I probably knew more than half. Might explain why the social scene is far less brutal here than in the US.
1000 kids / class year is unheard of. That seems huge to me to the point I can’t understand how it would work. I knew mostly everyone in my class year up to high school and even then I probably knew more than half. Might explain why the social scene is far less brutal here than in the US.
The 38th biggest high school in the US is Cypress Bay, with 3980 students (presumably over four years).
1000 kids / class year is quite unusual!
https://highschoolguide.org/624/top-100-largest-high-schools...
1000 kids / class year is quite unusual!
https://highschoolguide.org/624/top-100-largest-high-schools...
It is also the norm in parts of Eastern Europe - having the same 20-30 class year between the ages of 6-7 and 16-17.
Could it be that the social life at the 'prestigious college' was just rubbish, e.g. geared towards extraverted mba-types with 'default' social activities being clubbing and drinking?
Could it be that the social life at the 'prestigious college' was just rubbish, e.g. geared towards extraverted mba-types with 'default' social activities being clubbing and drinking?
I went to school in a rural area of the US and we also had about 20 kids in most classes. It started to get a little more crowded towards high school as there seemed to be a lot of people moving to the area and it didn't seem to be expected. But everyone was worried there were too many kids in class when there were 30 at that point.
So I think this varies quite a lot across the US. I tend to feel that large cities have more crowded classes than rural areas, but I have no data for that.
So I think this varies quite a lot across the US. I tend to feel that large cities have more crowded classes than rural areas, but I have no data for that.
> Every year, maybe one or two kids left to go to other schools and one or two new kids joined, but for the most part I grew up with the same core set of children for seven years. I honestly believe this had a permanent negative effect on my ability to socialize and form new friendships that I am only barely beginning to correct over a decade later.
While I believe your experience to be entirely legitimate, what you are describing is the norm throughout most of Europe and I can assure you that most of us are socially adjusted (or at least somewhat socially adjusted).
While I believe your experience to be entirely legitimate, what you are describing is the norm throughout most of Europe and I can assure you that most of us are socially adjusted (or at least somewhat socially adjusted).
>, but for the most part I grew up with the same core set of children for seven years
uuh this is how regular school is in Sweden...
You have a class of people in grade 1-6, then grade 7-9 is a new school, then high school is a new school.
But I guess we all have anxiety so ur right xD
uuh this is how regular school is in Sweden...
You have a class of people in grade 1-6, then grade 7-9 is a new school, then high school is a new school.
But I guess we all have anxiety so ur right xD
We have a Montessori nearby we considered, but ultimately decided it was too risky due to the small class size - if we went in blind and ended up with a bunch of kids ours didn't get along with it would be painful to roll back.
The local public school seems to be fine (this is elementary/middle grades). Thinking about going from there to a more elite private high school though, biggest downside being that it will require a bit of a commute.
I wish you could load this all up into a world simulator and see which option worked out best 10 years into the future :-)
The local public school seems to be fine (this is elementary/middle grades). Thinking about going from there to a more elite private high school though, biggest downside being that it will require a bit of a commute.
I wish you could load this all up into a world simulator and see which option worked out best 10 years into the future :-)
i am very confused by the reasoning for your choice. i believe the smaller the class size, the less likely there are going to be any problems. for one, the teacher will have more time for each child and be able to notice and deal with conflicts, and also your child will spend more time with the same kids, and so they will have more opportunity to get along.
but most of all, i do not believe that children can not learn to get along over time. so any issue with kids not getting along is going to be temporary.
but most of all, i do not believe that children can not learn to get along over time. so any issue with kids not getting along is going to be temporary.
It was mostly a numbers thing. If probability of any given kid being a good match is p, I wanted a good chance of getting 3-4 good matches i.e. wanted (1-p)^(N-4) to be small, while not losing too much quality due to overpopulated class. I thought a cohort of 20 in the class year was too small. We've also had a cautionary experience with an earlier grade where too many classmates were aggressive little shits who were no fun to deal with (though with enough good eggs to counterbalance).
ok, i do agree that prior bad experience does shape ones expectations, and i could not say that i would not allow my self to be influenced by such an experience. that said, from an outside perspective, i don't think the odds are stacked like that. from my personal experience, a large class size doesn't make it more likely for any one child to make friends. on the contrary. in my class of 25-30 kids i had no friends at all. i believe that a smaller class of say 15 kids would have increased the opportunities to make friends because there would be less opportunities for others to exclude me from their activities.
even if your child makes friends easily, large classes allow the class to split into multiple subgroups, cliques that stick together. the smaller the class, the less likely this should happen. at least that is what my intuition suggests. i would put the limit for that to 10-15 kids though. any more than that is an invitation to form subgroups.
but we also must not forget the montessori aspect here, which has a strong influence on the group dynamics and individual childrens behavior.
for one, i believe that the montessori approach is driving and motivating children in a way that they simply don't show as much negative behavior as they would exhibit in a traditional class.
even if your child makes friends easily, large classes allow the class to split into multiple subgroups, cliques that stick together. the smaller the class, the less likely this should happen. at least that is what my intuition suggests. i would put the limit for that to 10-15 kids though. any more than that is an invitation to form subgroups.
but we also must not forget the montessori aspect here, which has a strong influence on the group dynamics and individual childrens behavior.
for one, i believe that the montessori approach is driving and motivating children in a way that they simply don't show as much negative behavior as they would exhibit in a traditional class.
I did Montessori between ages 6 and 15, then transitioned into more traditional education for the last three years.
The main difference was how much more challenging Montessori education was. The teachers really observed me and how I performed on assignments, and they could tell when I needed more of a challenge, and assign something to me that was just at the edge of what I was able to do. In the traditional education, if I consistently just did the bare minimum expected of everyone, I was a double-plus A plus student.
I was also allowed to explore subjects that interested me in greater depth, as long as it didn't come at the expense of subjects I found less interesting. I learned a lot of English and maths in the first few years!
If I had a disagreement with a Montessori teacher, we would sit down together and have a mature conversation about it and reach some sort of mutually beneficial solution (yes, even when I was under the age of 10!) In the more traditional education, there was the assumption that if I disagreed with the teacher, I was wrong and should shut up. (I ended up not passing a few classes in the traditional school because of disagreements with the teacher – I simply stopped attending the class at that point. Didn't seem productive to go on.)
I also had a lot more spare time in the Montessori school. As long as I did well on the work assigned to me and didn't bother my classmates, the teachers didn't really care how I spent my time. I could sit in a corner and read or do long multiplication, or go out and kick around a soccer ball. I would like to think this helped me learn independence.
On the other hand, I also have a notable lack of respect for authority figures. I like to think this is good, but it has also gotten me into trouble for disagreeing with hardline managers, refusing to do things I think are unethical, etc. I think some of this can be attributed to the Montessori school, where respect was based on fact, rational argument, and patient listening, rather than who should be commanding whom.
The main difference was how much more challenging Montessori education was. The teachers really observed me and how I performed on assignments, and they could tell when I needed more of a challenge, and assign something to me that was just at the edge of what I was able to do. In the traditional education, if I consistently just did the bare minimum expected of everyone, I was a double-plus A plus student.
I was also allowed to explore subjects that interested me in greater depth, as long as it didn't come at the expense of subjects I found less interesting. I learned a lot of English and maths in the first few years!
If I had a disagreement with a Montessori teacher, we would sit down together and have a mature conversation about it and reach some sort of mutually beneficial solution (yes, even when I was under the age of 10!) In the more traditional education, there was the assumption that if I disagreed with the teacher, I was wrong and should shut up. (I ended up not passing a few classes in the traditional school because of disagreements with the teacher – I simply stopped attending the class at that point. Didn't seem productive to go on.)
I also had a lot more spare time in the Montessori school. As long as I did well on the work assigned to me and didn't bother my classmates, the teachers didn't really care how I spent my time. I could sit in a corner and read or do long multiplication, or go out and kick around a soccer ball. I would like to think this helped me learn independence.
On the other hand, I also have a notable lack of respect for authority figures. I like to think this is good, but it has also gotten me into trouble for disagreeing with hardline managers, refusing to do things I think are unethical, etc. I think some of this can be attributed to the Montessori school, where respect was based on fact, rational argument, and patient listening, rather than who should be commanding whom.
> On the other hand, I also have a notable lack of respect for authority figures.
I went through "classical" education system (with lots of aggression, as somebody else already mentioned in another thread here) - and can tell I also obtained no respect for authority figures. School taught me to survive school by tricking those teachers who had no respect to pupils. Give them what they want and you'r going to be fine - even if you don't learn anything useful. Same when it comes with relationships with other pupils, especially those aggressive ones. I observe my kids who I send to Montessori and can definitely tell they are not easy when it comes to disagreements - and I like it that way, it keeps reminding me that I have no right not to treat them with respect even when I'm tired or in hurry. I see teachers putting lots of attention to mutual respect as well.
I went through "classical" education system (with lots of aggression, as somebody else already mentioned in another thread here) - and can tell I also obtained no respect for authority figures. School taught me to survive school by tricking those teachers who had no respect to pupils. Give them what they want and you'r going to be fine - even if you don't learn anything useful. Same when it comes with relationships with other pupils, especially those aggressive ones. I observe my kids who I send to Montessori and can definitely tell they are not easy when it comes to disagreements - and I like it that way, it keeps reminding me that I have no right not to treat them with respect even when I'm tired or in hurry. I see teachers putting lots of attention to mutual respect as well.
There might be some confusion over what "classical education" means. Do you mean a traditional/mainstream public school? Or classical as in structured around the trivium?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_education_movement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_education_movement
I believe the confusion is merely your own. The context is clear here.
It wasn't clear to me, either - there's an education system conventionally called "classical education" and it is not what you refer to when you use that term.
Not to me.
Are you equally confused by the lack of cello in classical rock?
Notice the use of quotes.
Is anyone here talking about this other educational system you're referencing? Have there been any mentions of it?
Notice the use of quotes.
Is anyone here talking about this other educational system you're referencing? Have there been any mentions of it?
I meant traditional public school, it's what I referred to as "classical" ("classical" in a sense what I believe most of us went through), though I understand there are private schools that in principle operate in similar way.
Thanks.
In terms of authority figure respect - - I always get the feeling that's something thats innate. I have the same aversion to authority and has gotten me into trouble not reading the politics of a situation / power dynamic. I probably could attribute it to be raised in a public school system though my recollection is did respect the teachers. Interesting take.
I attended Montessori from 3rd-6th grade and then went to a 2-year transition program called "Project Based Learning" before returning to traditional schooling for 9th-12th grades. I loved Montessori and it helped shape me into the person I am today.
However, transitioning back to traditional schooling was extremely painful, and sadly it never got easier. I hated the rest of my school experience, from 9th grade until basically the end of college.
In Montessori, when it was time to learn a new subject, I'd have a brief, one-on-one conversation with the teacher to get oriented, and then after 10-20 minutes, they'd set me loose to apply the ideas on my own until I mastered the material.
Compared to that freedom, ordinary classrooms were miserable. Trapped, listening to lectures for 45+ minutes at a time before I was able to get my hands dirty and try anything out. And if I caught on early in a lecture, that made things even worse! Now I had to sit there for a half hour and listen to a teacher explain something I already understood—to no one's benefit. I'm getting worked up just thinking of it. Suffice it to say that moving at the pace of the slowest person in the class was torture for my ADHD brain. Montessori spoiled me and I never really reacclimatized.
I don't have any advice except that for some people (like me) Montessori works extremely well, and for many others, it doesn't work well at all. But if it works well, then transitioning back to regular schooling can be tough.
However, transitioning back to traditional schooling was extremely painful, and sadly it never got easier. I hated the rest of my school experience, from 9th grade until basically the end of college.
In Montessori, when it was time to learn a new subject, I'd have a brief, one-on-one conversation with the teacher to get oriented, and then after 10-20 minutes, they'd set me loose to apply the ideas on my own until I mastered the material.
Compared to that freedom, ordinary classrooms were miserable. Trapped, listening to lectures for 45+ minutes at a time before I was able to get my hands dirty and try anything out. And if I caught on early in a lecture, that made things even worse! Now I had to sit there for a half hour and listen to a teacher explain something I already understood—to no one's benefit. I'm getting worked up just thinking of it. Suffice it to say that moving at the pace of the slowest person in the class was torture for my ADHD brain. Montessori spoiled me and I never really reacclimatized.
I don't have any advice except that for some people (like me) Montessori works extremely well, and for many others, it doesn't work well at all. But if it works well, then transitioning back to regular schooling can be tough.
I attended a Montessori from Kindergarten to 5th grade in the 90's.
I loved it. The teachers let me teach an art and drawing class in 2nd grade. Another student taught an algebra class (he's a brilliant cancer researcher now). I co-wrote, illustrated, and sold a comic book with another classmate in 4th grade during class time.
It allowed me to complete the curriculum on my own time and held me accountable.
Montessori was something I made my own, not something that was happening to me.
The transition out wasn't that bad. I did 5th grade again (June baby) at a standard private school. The biggest things: - I had never written a formal essay, or an essay outline. - I had never taken nor prepared for a real test
Like others here, I never really enjoyed school as much after Montessori.
For the right kid, it can cultivate curiosity, independence, collaboration, and a love for self managed learning. For the wrong kid, it can be an unstructured nightmare.
I loved it. The teachers let me teach an art and drawing class in 2nd grade. Another student taught an algebra class (he's a brilliant cancer researcher now). I co-wrote, illustrated, and sold a comic book with another classmate in 4th grade during class time.
It allowed me to complete the curriculum on my own time and held me accountable.
Montessori was something I made my own, not something that was happening to me.
The transition out wasn't that bad. I did 5th grade again (June baby) at a standard private school. The biggest things: - I had never written a formal essay, or an essay outline. - I had never taken nor prepared for a real test
Like others here, I never really enjoyed school as much after Montessori.
For the right kid, it can cultivate curiosity, independence, collaboration, and a love for self managed learning. For the wrong kid, it can be an unstructured nightmare.
So I've been reading this and I'm not sure how I feel about it.
"Like others here, I never really enjoyed school as much after Montessori."
It's almost like school peaked as a child and then it was just disappointing after that. Not that I would say don't do the program because everything afterwards is less good but I am a bit split on it.
It also speaks to how powerful the program is to elicit such responses. And it seems from the small subsection of commenters on this HN thread (which is already a specific subsection of society) that there is a transition afterwards but people seem to be well adjusted for the most part.
From my own experience I can say I don't really think I enjoyed school (not Montessori) - and I'm realizing as I type this that in itself is unfortunate.
"Like others here, I never really enjoyed school as much after Montessori."
It's almost like school peaked as a child and then it was just disappointing after that. Not that I would say don't do the program because everything afterwards is less good but I am a bit split on it.
It also speaks to how powerful the program is to elicit such responses. And it seems from the small subsection of commenters on this HN thread (which is already a specific subsection of society) that there is a transition afterwards but people seem to be well adjusted for the most part.
From my own experience I can say I don't really think I enjoyed school (not Montessori) - and I'm realizing as I type this that in itself is unfortunate.
Right, and granted I don't have a "standard track" school experience to compare it with.
I'm considering both Montessori and non-Montessori for my own child right now too. FWIW the standard school looks fun too, albeit with more structure. I'm touring my old Montessori school in January. Curious to see how it's evolved in the last 20+ years.
It's likely that school just becomes more unenjoyable as "academic performance" takes the place of "child development".
I'm considering both Montessori and non-Montessori for my own child right now too. FWIW the standard school looks fun too, albeit with more structure. I'm touring my old Montessori school in January. Curious to see how it's evolved in the last 20+ years.
It's likely that school just becomes more unenjoyable as "academic performance" takes the place of "child development".
I think it speaks to the need for a follow-on equivalent system for high school and college.
> The transition out wasn't that bad. I did 5th grade again (June baby) at a standard private school. The biggest things: - I had never written a formal essay, or an essay outline. - I had never taken nor prepared for a real test
I went to public school. Im pretty sure grade 4/5 is around where tests and formal essay writing started anyways, so that doesn't sound that terrible.
I went to public school. Im pretty sure grade 4/5 is around where tests and formal essay writing started anyways, so that doesn't sound that terrible.
I have a lot of experience with public Montessori, wife taught as a middle school Montessori teacher for the past 3 years and both my kids went through the same school. My youngest is still there at grade 5 and my oldest is in 7th grade at a traditional middle school. My wife has taught traditional high school for about 10 years and then did a summer of training to be a certified Montessori teacher.
One thing we learned is that Montessori isn't for every child. My oldest did OK but he much prefers traditional schools and is thriving at his middle school (a public magnet). My youngest, on the other hand, loves the self-guided learning and pace. He's more organized and self-motivates better than my oldest which makes a big difference. He reads like crazy and finishes books in a week that would take me a month at least, not sure where that came from but he gets a lot of free time at school when his "works" are finished. Both kids are diagnosed with ADHD and so am I (my poor wife heh).
Another thing, the Montessori we attend is public so it still has to meet district and state testing requirements. That put it in an awkward spot where it could never be pure Montessori because of the district and state mandated testing. It also puts the teachers in an awkward spot because they're rated on testing results which contradicts the Montessori method. My wife got fed up and left last year and no teaches at a traditional public high school.
I live in DFW and the Montessori i'm referring to Mata Elementary. DISD is a notorious hellhole of a district but Mata is hanging in there. It's not perfect by any stretch but they're hanging in there and doing their best with what they have. https://www.dallasisd.org/mata
One thing we learned is that Montessori isn't for every child. My oldest did OK but he much prefers traditional schools and is thriving at his middle school (a public magnet). My youngest, on the other hand, loves the self-guided learning and pace. He's more organized and self-motivates better than my oldest which makes a big difference. He reads like crazy and finishes books in a week that would take me a month at least, not sure where that came from but he gets a lot of free time at school when his "works" are finished. Both kids are diagnosed with ADHD and so am I (my poor wife heh).
Another thing, the Montessori we attend is public so it still has to meet district and state testing requirements. That put it in an awkward spot where it could never be pure Montessori because of the district and state mandated testing. It also puts the teachers in an awkward spot because they're rated on testing results which contradicts the Montessori method. My wife got fed up and left last year and no teaches at a traditional public high school.
I live in DFW and the Montessori i'm referring to Mata Elementary. DISD is a notorious hellhole of a district but Mata is hanging in there. It's not perfect by any stretch but they're hanging in there and doing their best with what they have. https://www.dallasisd.org/mata
How did you determine that Montessori wasn't right for your oldest?
My daughter went to a Montessori until she was in 2nd grade. Her friend went through 5th grade. They are both together again in 6th, in the same middle school, and her friend is really struggling with math.
FWIW, my daughter also struggled with math coming into 2nd grade out of Montessori, but it being second grade math, it wasn't hard for her to catch up.
Also, something to watch out for: Montessori is not a registered trademark, so any school can call itself a Montessori school, without offering a Montessori education.
FWIW, my daughter also struggled with math coming into 2nd grade out of Montessori, but it being second grade math, it wasn't hard for her to catch up.
Also, something to watch out for: Montessori is not a registered trademark, so any school can call itself a Montessori school, without offering a Montessori education.
I go with montessori with my kids. My older started at the age of 4 and is now 7, I'm very satisfied with results I see (and I don't push for results, I still remember my education and so I take it easy with my kids). My older could read, write, count and do simple math before he went to primary school (which is also following montessori principles). He now picks up simple programming and not because I push him (I encaurage whatever he feels like doing, like playing the piano or playing chess or doing ice scating or football)
Could you share what programming he's doing? Is he using a specific app?
I did Montessori for preschool and kindergarten, and my review of it is that it will definitely trampoline your kids knowledge in certain subjects they have interest in relative to other kids their age who go to a normal school. I was very strong in math going into 1st grade, but was practically illiterate because I didn't like reading very much.
Your kids will probably be able to socialize with people outside their age range better, but will not be as socially adept with kids their age. I'd recommend some outside activities with strictly people in their age group.
Your kids will probably be able to socialize with people outside their age range better, but will not be as socially adept with kids their age. I'd recommend some outside activities with strictly people in their age group.
Montessori is awesome, have put two kids through it and everything about the approach is wonderful. We committed serious financial resources (for us) to do this.
However, as others have said, the individual school can have a huge influence on the quality. We moved interstate a year ago and sadly the new Montessori school doesn’t even have a Montessori teacher in my kids class, so we are leaving.
So make sure you go to an established school where the teachers are Montessori trained and have been in the school a long time. That’s the #1 metric of a Montessori school if you ask me.
However, as others have said, the individual school can have a huge influence on the quality. We moved interstate a year ago and sadly the new Montessori school doesn’t even have a Montessori teacher in my kids class, so we are leaving.
So make sure you go to an established school where the teachers are Montessori trained and have been in the school a long time. That’s the #1 metric of a Montessori school if you ask me.
I went to a Montessori School from k-8 then switched into a fairly fast paced public school district for high school. I absolutely loved Montessori, and feel very lucky that I had the opportunity to attend. I felt a lot of ownership/independence about my learning from a young age, and it really supported my curiosity about the world. Interactions with teachers felt like collaboration, not being told what to do, so I felt trusted and it felt very safe to make mistakes and learn. There was no homework, which meant the school day had lots of time built in to work on assignments and move around, which I didn’t realize how much I appreciated until I got to high school and was sitting at a desk all day with hours of homework every night. There were lots of opportunities to learn from people who were really excited to teach what they were teaching. We got to do lots of weird science experiments, big class projects, woodworking, learning about ancient history, several different languages, lots of different instruments... the list goes on.
There were two notable challenges for me, though not everyone in my class experienced these. Some of it will also be limited if you only have them there through 6th grade.
The first was figuring out how to socially transition from a small private school that effectively functioned like a big family, to a large public school. I didn’t really learn how to meet people being at the same small school for so long, and the culture shock of leaving of leaving Montessori was pretty bad. (Both with the way people my age approached learning and the way the public school system operated, i.e. everything is for a grade nothing else matters).
The second is because of some combination of the curiosity driven learning and the particular sequence of teachers I had, I managed to avoid getting a good foundation in algebra because I didn’t really feel like it. This turned out to be a big problem for me for many years, partially because no one realized so I kept being put in higher math classes, doing well through brute force, and being very frustrated and confused about all of it. I’m now getting an advanced degree in math, so everything worked itself out, but I do think math specifically wants a little more structure at those early steps than what I got.
Overall it was still absolutely worth it for me. Sometimes I wonder who I would be now if my curiosity hadn’t been so strongly reinforced when I was young. Happy to answer any specific questions! Hope this helps.
There were two notable challenges for me, though not everyone in my class experienced these. Some of it will also be limited if you only have them there through 6th grade.
The first was figuring out how to socially transition from a small private school that effectively functioned like a big family, to a large public school. I didn’t really learn how to meet people being at the same small school for so long, and the culture shock of leaving of leaving Montessori was pretty bad. (Both with the way people my age approached learning and the way the public school system operated, i.e. everything is for a grade nothing else matters).
The second is because of some combination of the curiosity driven learning and the particular sequence of teachers I had, I managed to avoid getting a good foundation in algebra because I didn’t really feel like it. This turned out to be a big problem for me for many years, partially because no one realized so I kept being put in higher math classes, doing well through brute force, and being very frustrated and confused about all of it. I’m now getting an advanced degree in math, so everything worked itself out, but I do think math specifically wants a little more structure at those early steps than what I got.
Overall it was still absolutely worth it for me. Sometimes I wonder who I would be now if my curiosity hadn’t been so strongly reinforced when I was young. Happy to answer any specific questions! Hope this helps.
Thanks for sharing - glad to hear you managed to get through your lower level algebraic struggles! That's a tough thing to have to fix.
One of the things you mentioned (and i've seen in many comments) is the transition from Montessori to another system (an aside: usually while implying saying how poor the structure/goals of the other system is).
My product development part of my brain points to this as as systemic problem that could try to be addressed by the school/parents - though that is such a holistic change that the best you could do is minimize impacts but maybe that should be considered.
The other part is that it seems that most people have very positive memories of their Montessori days.
As I see it the big family, highly personalized, explore at your own pace, keep children curious, unstructured but guided combination is very attractive but the concern is really that transition after the fact to a larger more structured institution & smaller amount of emphasis on athletics are the sticky points.
Without going into a larger debate about education - I kind of wish the state system was less results oriented and exploratory in the early years for all children and then the program changed as they got older. I recognize there are inherent challenges.
I'm curious if the two challenges that you had (which would probably be different challenges for other children) could have been identified at an early time and given some support - or if you think that struggling through both of them help develop your internal strength without sacrificing too much?
One of the things you mentioned (and i've seen in many comments) is the transition from Montessori to another system (an aside: usually while implying saying how poor the structure/goals of the other system is).
My product development part of my brain points to this as as systemic problem that could try to be addressed by the school/parents - though that is such a holistic change that the best you could do is minimize impacts but maybe that should be considered.
The other part is that it seems that most people have very positive memories of their Montessori days.
As I see it the big family, highly personalized, explore at your own pace, keep children curious, unstructured but guided combination is very attractive but the concern is really that transition after the fact to a larger more structured institution & smaller amount of emphasis on athletics are the sticky points.
Without going into a larger debate about education - I kind of wish the state system was less results oriented and exploratory in the early years for all children and then the program changed as they got older. I recognize there are inherent challenges.
I'm curious if the two challenges that you had (which would probably be different challenges for other children) could have been identified at an early time and given some support - or if you think that struggling through both of them help develop your internal strength without sacrificing too much?
I definitely think that these two things could have been identified and supported. It’s actually very interesting reading the comments here that they are pretty common experiences, and structurally that makes sense to me. I’m not sure these two things helped me develop “internal strength” as much as being supported in lots of other ways counterbalanced it.
The math learning was fine for me until about 7th grade, so you might not even encounter this. If you’re mathematically inclined and and have the resources to support, I think it’s fairly straightforward to keep an eye on how math is progressing and boost. My parents did identify that I wasn’t prepared for high school math, but didn’t follow through in ways that actually fixed the situation. They both went through pretty rigorous traditional math education, and so probably didn’t even realize this was something that could slip through. I probably would have been back on track with either of my of them sitting down to teach me algebra, or an after school program, or such. Instead what happened is I was handed an algebra textbook to work through over the summer, which honestly I half succeeded at after being in Montessori for so long, but I really needed more guidance/pacing/accountability. It kind of sucked going through high school and early college math without that foundation, I’m not sure I learned much from that struggle other than the usual “I must be naturally bad at math”.
The social transition is a harder one, and bound to happen given how differently Montessori and the generals public school system operates. I echo what the other people here are saying of making sure your kids get to socialize outside of the Montessori environment, especially practicing meeting new peers. Many of my classmates had a hard time at first and then figured it out, it took me a bit longer. I am grateful though that I managed to hold onto the “weirdness” of being curious and passionate about learning, even if it made high school hard at times.
I also don’t think being excited about learning and being well socialized are mutually exclusive! Generally my friends who did better transitioning had more social parents to model off of, or other previously Montessori students at their high school. Something that probably would have helped me is staying in regular contact with the people I went to Montessori with. Then we could navigate the change it together, even if we were all at different schools, and the social switch over wouldn’t have been so total and isolating. My younger sister had a few friends switch to the same high school together and they adapted much much faster. I wonder if parents/kids of parents who move around a lot have any advice on this?
The math learning was fine for me until about 7th grade, so you might not even encounter this. If you’re mathematically inclined and and have the resources to support, I think it’s fairly straightforward to keep an eye on how math is progressing and boost. My parents did identify that I wasn’t prepared for high school math, but didn’t follow through in ways that actually fixed the situation. They both went through pretty rigorous traditional math education, and so probably didn’t even realize this was something that could slip through. I probably would have been back on track with either of my of them sitting down to teach me algebra, or an after school program, or such. Instead what happened is I was handed an algebra textbook to work through over the summer, which honestly I half succeeded at after being in Montessori for so long, but I really needed more guidance/pacing/accountability. It kind of sucked going through high school and early college math without that foundation, I’m not sure I learned much from that struggle other than the usual “I must be naturally bad at math”.
The social transition is a harder one, and bound to happen given how differently Montessori and the generals public school system operates. I echo what the other people here are saying of making sure your kids get to socialize outside of the Montessori environment, especially practicing meeting new peers. Many of my classmates had a hard time at first and then figured it out, it took me a bit longer. I am grateful though that I managed to hold onto the “weirdness” of being curious and passionate about learning, even if it made high school hard at times.
I also don’t think being excited about learning and being well socialized are mutually exclusive! Generally my friends who did better transitioning had more social parents to model off of, or other previously Montessori students at their high school. Something that probably would have helped me is staying in regular contact with the people I went to Montessori with. Then we could navigate the change it together, even if we were all at different schools, and the social switch over wouldn’t have been so total and isolating. My younger sister had a few friends switch to the same high school together and they adapted much much faster. I wonder if parents/kids of parents who move around a lot have any advice on this?
I feel you on the challenges. I had the same culture shock going to high school, even though it was only a smallish Catholic school. Learning how to work within a system is a critical skill!
On math, my early elementary teacher and my father (also a teacher) combined Montessori math, which spoke to (or influenced) my visual/tangible style of thinking, and lots of classic drills to internalize math facts. Or maybe it worked out in contrast to your experience because something clicked and I loved learning math early. (High school beat that out of me.)
On math, my early elementary teacher and my father (also a teacher) combined Montessori math, which spoke to (or influenced) my visual/tangible style of thinking, and lots of classic drills to internalize math facts. Or maybe it worked out in contrast to your experience because something clicked and I loved learning math early. (High school beat that out of me.)
It took me a few tries to learn that lesson!
I feel pretty lucky that I finally found math that I enjoyed and made sense after hating it for so long. I didn’t do a ton of memorization/drilling and I never really got into the world of fun math puzzles, so in high school I was both underprepared and never got to do the cool stuff. It’s much easier to convince myself as an adult that fluency in algebraic computation is useful because I now have examples that I care about being able to work through.
I feel pretty lucky that I finally found math that I enjoyed and made sense after hating it for so long. I didn’t do a ton of memorization/drilling and I never really got into the world of fun math puzzles, so in high school I was both underprepared and never got to do the cool stuff. It’s much easier to convince myself as an adult that fluency in algebraic computation is useful because I now have examples that I care about being able to work through.
My children are both going to Montessori schools in Netherland. One to primary school, the other to secondary. And not because we absolutely need to have our kids in a Montessori school, but simply because the primary school is very close to our home and seems like a decent school (though they've had a few issues a couple of years ago), and the secondary school is the only one in Amsterdam that offers 4 hours of programming per week.
I do sometimes worry that the freedom might not work well for my kids; maybe they need a bit more guidance. The youngest (7) simply refuses to do his work, and while the oldest (now 13) skipped a grade when he was 7, he failed last year because he was not doing any homework and not turning in his assignments. Stricter guidance might help them both. Or maybe not. It's hard to tell.
My parents apparently did consider Montessori for me, but I've only gone to regular schools, never did my homework, always passed, and in university discovered I had no work discipline at all, so it seems like everybody in our family is going to run into that problem at some point. Maybe it's better to learn it early.
I do sometimes worry that the freedom might not work well for my kids; maybe they need a bit more guidance. The youngest (7) simply refuses to do his work, and while the oldest (now 13) skipped a grade when he was 7, he failed last year because he was not doing any homework and not turning in his assignments. Stricter guidance might help them both. Or maybe not. It's hard to tell.
My parents apparently did consider Montessori for me, but I've only gone to regular schools, never did my homework, always passed, and in university discovered I had no work discipline at all, so it seems like everybody in our family is going to run into that problem at some point. Maybe it's better to learn it early.
I'd be curious how the Montesorri is implemented in Netherlands vs North America. As mentioned it does come down to how each school runs their program with some consistencies across the board.
I have no idea how it's implemented in North America, but from what I can tell, there's a big emphasis on kids making their own planning. My kids are terrible at planning (no surprise to me), so they receive help with that.
Of course being part of the Dutch educational system, they have to follow the same rules, meet the same criteria and receive the same funding as other schools. I've been told that their approach is somewhere halfway between true Montessori and a regular school.
Of course being part of the Dutch educational system, they have to follow the same rules, meet the same criteria and receive the same funding as other schools. I've been told that their approach is somewhere halfway between true Montessori and a regular school.
I went to a Montessori kindergarten and I'm sure to this day it must have been the best kindergarten in the world. I remember one single time that I felt uneasy there because I had to stay with another group for some time, and the lady in that group was thought to be rather strict. I did whatever I thought I was expected to do and probably didn't look too happy, for at some point she turned to me to tell me, "you don't have to do that, y'know, it's totally up to you". For a kid too shy too ask that was a great deal. It still counts in my life although it's half a century ago. Thank you Mr and Ms Montessori.
I attended a Montessori in the Midwest until third grade. When I entered the California public school system, I was in some ways years ahead of my class (especially in reading comprehension). I coasted through every gifted program they threw at me until high school. Montessori gave me a huge advantage at one of the most critical stages in my development. I wish I could have been there longer.
It is interesting if you look at the data on this. Your advantage from Montessori school by third grade is well documented, but then you typically see that by high school the traditionally schooled kids catch up and the Montessori kids come back toward the average, even if they are still in a Montessori school. Obviously this all depends upon the individual child (which is, of course, a big component of Montessori philosophy) but statistically over a population, that's how it plays out.
I'd be interested to see the data. Also to commenters opinion - coasted after montesorri afterwards until college -- so many gave them and early boost and not necessarily need to keep the work ethic in high school which would bring them back to average per your comment -- (alternate theory)
I have two kids in it, one 11 year old boy and one 8 year old girl. The school we were in switched to Montessori 4 years ago. The younger loves it. The older very much dislikes the open nature of the school day and struggles to complete tasks. His teacher has had to modify and provide him with much more structure than you would normally receive. You might say that’s because he didn’t start in Montessori from the beginning. But knowing my child, I think Montessori doesn’t work for some kids, in the same way rigid traditional schools don’t work for others.
My child has been homeschooled and many of the other homeschooling families I have talked to have used Montessori. My primary impression is that it varies a _lot_ from one Montessori school to another, and there isn't much preventing someone from claiming that their private school is "Montessori". So while it's great that you are asking for feedback on HN, make sure also to find out the inside scoop about the _particular_ Montessori school you are considering.
My daughter went from 18 months through 8th grade and my wife runs the school so, as you may guess, we are big fans. One thing to look for is the certifications. In the US there are (at least) two main Montessori Certification groups, AMI & AMS. The school my wife runs is AMI but I think AMS would be just as good.
What is slightly different than other experiences here is that the school is a Charter school which poses some challenges but does offer Montessori beyond the normal tuition based model.
As for my daughter, her transition has been fairly smooth. The high school she goes to has more than 10x the students as her old school so is much larger. On the other hand, her grades are good, and she is involved in a number of clubs too.
Montessori is not for everyone but I definitely recommend checking it out.
What is slightly different than other experiences here is that the school is a Charter school which poses some challenges but does offer Montessori beyond the normal tuition based model.
As for my daughter, her transition has been fairly smooth. The high school she goes to has more than 10x the students as her old school so is much larger. On the other hand, her grades are good, and she is involved in a number of clubs too.
Montessori is not for everyone but I definitely recommend checking it out.
I was hesitant to put my daughter into a bad / violent public school system (ranked bottom 5% in the nation at the time) so we opted for Montessori. She's in college now on a blended CompSci/math major, but in (non-Montessori) high school she developed a Lego robot that has landed her an exhibit in the Smithsonian National Museum of American History, which is probably never a bad thing for her burgeoning career.
Yes, my education began with Pre-K Montessori, and then transitioned to prep school in 7th grade. The dynamics of my family were chaotic at the moment of transition, so there was not much support for me, and the transition difficult.
40 years later, the self-driven learning informs my work, ceeative practice, and ongoing learning. Montessori taught me to look for the next challenge and embrace it.
Dyslexia / dysgraphia / learning differences were not diagnosed in Montessori school, where I excelled at mathematics. When the pressures of prep school ran into the reading writing differences problems ensued.
The bottom line is Montessori taught me to challenge myself and gave me a lifelong love of learning and independent study.
40 years later, the self-driven learning informs my work, ceeative practice, and ongoing learning. Montessori taught me to look for the next challenge and embrace it.
Dyslexia / dysgraphia / learning differences were not diagnosed in Montessori school, where I excelled at mathematics. When the pressures of prep school ran into the reading writing differences problems ensued.
The bottom line is Montessori taught me to challenge myself and gave me a lifelong love of learning and independent study.
I was in Montessori from pre-school through grade 6, and then transitioned into a traditional private prep school for grade 7 through 12. Honestly, it wasn't that bad of a transition, even though I had to completely relearn what school was supposed to be.
My Montessori school day by grade 6 was a lot of unstructured time, often outdoors, sometimes doing math in the bathroom because that's where it was quiet, very often project based learning with other kids rather than the teacher. Never any "homework" assigned, but often doing school work at home because I wanted to keep working on something.
My prep school was eight periods a day, sitting in desks, learning whatever the day's lesson plan was, getting fixed breaks for lunch and recess, and getting several hours of homework assigned a day.
The two environments were very different. But I adjusted and moved on. The biggest annoyance I had with the prep school was that they controlled my movements so much. In 6th grade, we'd leave the school and go down to the center of town for lunch, getting something at the sub shop or eating our bagged lunch by the town's waterfalls, and returning to school on our own when it was time. In 7th grade, I needed a hall pass to even be out of the classroom during a period, and would definitely get suspended if I left campus during the day.
But from most of the local Montessori schools I toured when I was looking for my son, the freedom we had at my Montessori school in the early 1980's seems to be very much more restricted these days, simply because the larger culture doesn't allow it any longer. The one that actually offered the most freedom for the kids was still the school that I had gone to. But I live too far away from it now for it to have been a real choice.
As it turns out, my son failed spectacularly at his Montessori school because of some learning disabilities he has that they were unable to handle, and he actually is much more happy now in a more traditional school which helped him overcome his disabilities and be successful (not specifically because they are more traditional, but because they are a school well-versed in handling learning disabilities).
My Montessori school day by grade 6 was a lot of unstructured time, often outdoors, sometimes doing math in the bathroom because that's where it was quiet, very often project based learning with other kids rather than the teacher. Never any "homework" assigned, but often doing school work at home because I wanted to keep working on something.
My prep school was eight periods a day, sitting in desks, learning whatever the day's lesson plan was, getting fixed breaks for lunch and recess, and getting several hours of homework assigned a day.
The two environments were very different. But I adjusted and moved on. The biggest annoyance I had with the prep school was that they controlled my movements so much. In 6th grade, we'd leave the school and go down to the center of town for lunch, getting something at the sub shop or eating our bagged lunch by the town's waterfalls, and returning to school on our own when it was time. In 7th grade, I needed a hall pass to even be out of the classroom during a period, and would definitely get suspended if I left campus during the day.
But from most of the local Montessori schools I toured when I was looking for my son, the freedom we had at my Montessori school in the early 1980's seems to be very much more restricted these days, simply because the larger culture doesn't allow it any longer. The one that actually offered the most freedom for the kids was still the school that I had gone to. But I live too far away from it now for it to have been a real choice.
As it turns out, my son failed spectacularly at his Montessori school because of some learning disabilities he has that they were unable to handle, and he actually is much more happy now in a more traditional school which helped him overcome his disabilities and be successful (not specifically because they are more traditional, but because they are a school well-versed in handling learning disabilities).
I'm curious as to what the "failure state" of a Montessori education is. There's a lot to support that good Montessori teachers are better than good "traditional" schoolteachers, but what about the bad teachers? Assessing a system based on good conditions only can miss a lot - anyone here have a bad teacher while going through one of these programs?
I see two big failure states at Montessori schools.
The first, and biggest, is constant parental pressure to move away from Montessori and more toward traditional education. This is typically because parents don't actually understand or value Montessori, they either want to brag about sending their kid there, or they're simply using it as a preschool with no intention of keeping their kid there after public school options begin. A school without a strong leader at the top will get kicked around by the parents and start to implement weird and non-useful policies and educational choices. The end failure state here is parents on the board, and a school which moves away from Montessori and ends up a middling small private school with nothing to guide its direction.
The second, as you're alluding to, is just poor teachers. It's very obvious when you walk into a Montessori classroom if the teacher has control of the class. A good Montessori classroom will have the kids engaged in group projects or quiet individual work, some kids helping other kids or giving lessons, and the teacher simply watching ready to step in if a child needs a lesson or some help moving forward. A poor Montessori classroom will have kids scattered about, chatting with each other, running around or being inappropriately loud, and a teacher haggardly running from problem to problem trying to fix it. The best Montessori teachers know how to give constant joy and encouragement, but also come down like a ton of bricks for misbehavior. But they also need to be able to know each child well. If you don't know the kid, you cannot keep them pointed in the right direction, because each kid is different, and you'll lose them to idleness and lack of motivation.
The first, and biggest, is constant parental pressure to move away from Montessori and more toward traditional education. This is typically because parents don't actually understand or value Montessori, they either want to brag about sending their kid there, or they're simply using it as a preschool with no intention of keeping their kid there after public school options begin. A school without a strong leader at the top will get kicked around by the parents and start to implement weird and non-useful policies and educational choices. The end failure state here is parents on the board, and a school which moves away from Montessori and ends up a middling small private school with nothing to guide its direction.
The second, as you're alluding to, is just poor teachers. It's very obvious when you walk into a Montessori classroom if the teacher has control of the class. A good Montessori classroom will have the kids engaged in group projects or quiet individual work, some kids helping other kids or giving lessons, and the teacher simply watching ready to step in if a child needs a lesson or some help moving forward. A poor Montessori classroom will have kids scattered about, chatting with each other, running around or being inappropriately loud, and a teacher haggardly running from problem to problem trying to fix it. The best Montessori teachers know how to give constant joy and encouragement, but also come down like a ton of bricks for misbehavior. But they also need to be able to know each child well. If you don't know the kid, you cannot keep them pointed in the right direction, because each kid is different, and you'll lose them to idleness and lack of motivation.
My mom is a Montessori teacher of many many years and I did summercamps as a swim instructor in one. While they are all reviewed by the Montessori board and certified, they are all a bit different. Shop around, the gap in quality between different schools can be quite apparent.
That being said, I would not hesitate to put my kids in one, especially over public schools which are a disaster.
That being said, I would not hesitate to put my kids in one, especially over public schools which are a disaster.
My mother's also a longtime Montessori teacher, and yeah, there’s a lot of variety. Montessori is not a protected trademark. Look for AMI-certified for a school that has to meet some standards. I attended Montessori from 2-14, but have no advice that can be generalized to every kid or school.
But doesn’t the same variety apply for public schools? They’re not all a disaster. My kid goes to a good dual language immersion public school where in addition to academics, they’re learning collaboration and empathy with people from all walks of life, not just the ones whose parents drop them off in a Tesla. The school is underfunded, doesn’t have the resources to market itself, and teachers are burning out, but if some of the hyper-enthusiastic Montessori parents I know applied their energy to a public school, it’d kick ass. That’s the choice I made—I’m on the PTA and am building their makerspace. Others are leading gardening or composting programs. Not everyone has the time to do that, but we shouldn’t be mere consumers of education, as every parent who helps their kids do homework knows.
But doesn’t the same variety apply for public schools? They’re not all a disaster. My kid goes to a good dual language immersion public school where in addition to academics, they’re learning collaboration and empathy with people from all walks of life, not just the ones whose parents drop them off in a Tesla. The school is underfunded, doesn’t have the resources to market itself, and teachers are burning out, but if some of the hyper-enthusiastic Montessori parents I know applied their energy to a public school, it’d kick ass. That’s the choice I made—I’m on the PTA and am building their makerspace. Others are leading gardening or composting programs. Not everyone has the time to do that, but we shouldn’t be mere consumers of education, as every parent who helps their kids do homework knows.
> Look for AMI-certified
Just be sure you know the difference between AMS and AMI. They're pretty different in their approach to Montessori. AMI is strictly traditional Montessori, whereas AMS is a more progressive model. My mother founded an AMS school, so you can guess which one I think is better. But you have to decide which style makes more sense to you.
Just be sure you know the difference between AMS and AMI. They're pretty different in their approach to Montessori. AMI is strictly traditional Montessori, whereas AMS is a more progressive model. My mother founded an AMS school, so you can guess which one I think is better. But you have to decide which style makes more sense to you.
Yes, and my mother founded an AMI school so you know why I said AMI. :) Though the gentlest person you’ll ever meet, she talks trash at the drop of an hat about AMS, charter schools and nearly every other sect. Hey, her trainer was trained by Mario Montessori. That said, she’s a little off the AMI orthodoxy, and every school does have its own style, so you gotta observe at the schools you’re interested in.
I did Montessori from age 4-8 and then transitioned because of a move.
Montessori worked really well for me. I have always been 'ahead' and I could explore my own interests. I was never bored in school which is something that changed later on in life. I have very fond memories of that school and my own kids (currently 5 and 3) are in a Montessori school and day care as well.
My son specifically is also doing awesome in Montessori and loves going to school. They have themed shelves with 'tasks' (this is translated, not sure about the common English terminology). Every day they have to do at least one task from the 'language' shelf and one from the 'math' shelf. They also have geography, practical life skills and 'cosmology' (basically anything else) shelves.
Teachers keep track of their skills and accomplished tasks and basically sweep behind if they are lacking in one or more areas by encouraging them to pick up more tasks from those areas.
According to the school on average Montessori kids are more independent, great at critical thinking, more self-confident and tend to pick up leadership roles later in life (I do feel like this applies to me, but I've only had a couple of Montessori years so hard to judge).
I am a big fan.
Is there anything specific you are worried about/interested in?
Montessori worked really well for me. I have always been 'ahead' and I could explore my own interests. I was never bored in school which is something that changed later on in life. I have very fond memories of that school and my own kids (currently 5 and 3) are in a Montessori school and day care as well.
My son specifically is also doing awesome in Montessori and loves going to school. They have themed shelves with 'tasks' (this is translated, not sure about the common English terminology). Every day they have to do at least one task from the 'language' shelf and one from the 'math' shelf. They also have geography, practical life skills and 'cosmology' (basically anything else) shelves.
Teachers keep track of their skills and accomplished tasks and basically sweep behind if they are lacking in one or more areas by encouraging them to pick up more tasks from those areas.
According to the school on average Montessori kids are more independent, great at critical thinking, more self-confident and tend to pick up leadership roles later in life (I do feel like this applies to me, but I've only had a couple of Montessori years so hard to judge).
I am a big fan.
Is there anything specific you are worried about/interested in?
I was put into montessori preschool at around age 4 after my mom caught daycare workers abusing me. I liked it, was a fun time and I figured out how to read at around a 4th grade level at 5. The issues started when I got taken out of that environment and put into a normal one when I started grade school. You see, my preschool teacher noticed that I had ADHD, but that didn't really matter in a Montessori environment. But in traditional school, this means you get in trouble a lot, get terrible grades, and I've been almost kicked out of every school I've been to. I found the transition to traditional structured school traumatic. This was in early grade school too, I can imagine the experience of going from Montessori school to traditional school in later grades to be impossible, like trying to socialize a feral cat or something.
Look OP, if you think school is about your kids learning you've got it very wrong. Wikipedia and arvix are for learning. School is state subsidized daycare, and social conditioning. Industrial society requires discipline, structure and obedience. Those values are not driven into a child's head in the Montessori, model. Do your kids a favor and get these things drilled into their heads early, before you have a bunch of intellectual bums laying around your house. Don't send your kids to Montessori school.
Look OP, if you think school is about your kids learning you've got it very wrong. Wikipedia and arvix are for learning. School is state subsidized daycare, and social conditioning. Industrial society requires discipline, structure and obedience. Those values are not driven into a child's head in the Montessori, model. Do your kids a favor and get these things drilled into their heads early, before you have a bunch of intellectual bums laying around your house. Don't send your kids to Montessori school.
Wow, this is terrible advice.
You have to put in the effort yourself to teach them those values (if you can even call them that...) and that life is not all fun and games. That said, Montessori model schools are great for your children, even if they're just "glorified daycares" instead of school. Children need to play, it's how they learn everything, including how to enjoy life. Do not immediately throw them into a life of "discipline, structure and obedience". That's not what life is about.
You have to put in the effort yourself to teach them those values (if you can even call them that...) and that life is not all fun and games. That said, Montessori model schools are great for your children, even if they're just "glorified daycares" instead of school. Children need to play, it's how they learn everything, including how to enjoy life. Do not immediately throw them into a life of "discipline, structure and obedience". That's not what life is about.
I’m helping to manage a Montessori preschool, so I’m immersed in Montessori at the moment.
There’s a pretty consistent underlying structure to the day, and the kids are taught to eg sit quietly for the class gathering (“circle time”), so I don’t think it’s accurate to say that the kids are taught no discipline. The periods that they’re asked to sit for aren’t very long, it’s preschool. But if you go an observe a class, they’re actually extremely well behaved. During their work cycles, they go and get their work, they sit individually to complete their work for a bit, then they return it to the shelf as they found it. And they’re learning relatively advanced reading, spelling, and math at 4.
One thing to be aware of is that many Montessori schools, especially nowadays, are “Montessori-inspired”, they don’t actually go through the effort (and the hiring requirements) it takes to be accredited by AMS. It’s more expensive to hire actual Montessori teachers, but the difference can be pretty incredible.
There’s a pretty consistent underlying structure to the day, and the kids are taught to eg sit quietly for the class gathering (“circle time”), so I don’t think it’s accurate to say that the kids are taught no discipline. The periods that they’re asked to sit for aren’t very long, it’s preschool. But if you go an observe a class, they’re actually extremely well behaved. During their work cycles, they go and get their work, they sit individually to complete their work for a bit, then they return it to the shelf as they found it. And they’re learning relatively advanced reading, spelling, and math at 4.
One thing to be aware of is that many Montessori schools, especially nowadays, are “Montessori-inspired”, they don’t actually go through the effort (and the hiring requirements) it takes to be accredited by AMS. It’s more expensive to hire actual Montessori teachers, but the difference can be pretty incredible.
It sounds like your experience was traumatic and that’s really unfortunate. But, your experience is far from universal for either school type. Today, particularly with Section 504 plans, many schools are much more adept at accommodating ADHD and a number of other challenges. Kids who have slow handwriting development can use keyboards or text to speech. Kids who get extremely overwhelmed can take breaks in the hallway. Others who are bored by the offered curriculum are given access to Khan Academy. It’s not universal and it can require some parental persistence to both create the plan and enforce its use, but it has helped a lot of kids.
Public school taught me physics, calculus, history and a smattering of other topics I wouldn’t have delved into on my own (for example, reverse polish notation.) It did not teach me discipline, structure or obedience (I was actually spanked by a grade school teacher, which seems unfathomable now.) As such, I was wholly unprepared for higher education. Some of this stuff might require direct intervention from the parent instead of simply relying on a school to take care of it.
Public school taught me physics, calculus, history and a smattering of other topics I wouldn’t have delved into on my own (for example, reverse polish notation.) It did not teach me discipline, structure or obedience (I was actually spanked by a grade school teacher, which seems unfathomable now.) As such, I was wholly unprepared for higher education. Some of this stuff might require direct intervention from the parent instead of simply relying on a school to take care of it.
Yes I did in the 70's.
It worked out well up until my 6th grade (8th grade if you count kindergarten) The higher education part (Montessori Lyceum) never worked out for me as lack of structure and wealth of time freedom killed my effort and work ethos.
The difference between how primary and higher education was structured on a Montessori based education is to far apart of each other.
Primary Montessori education was more about getting the kids curious about the world and make them ask questions and get knowledge that way into the kid. Higher Montessori education was more like standard pumping knowledge that you have to remember for terms and tests.
I was never prepared for that higher education part in my primary education period so I went from bad to worse in my higher education before giving up totally and went to work instead. Later I did catch up when I was grown up.
Still, I am thankful for getting Montessori education as it formed my worldview and kept me curious and inquisitive the rest of my life and even now.
I do wish that in the last 3 years of my primary schooling I had more support for conquering the higher education years.
It worked out well up until my 6th grade (8th grade if you count kindergarten) The higher education part (Montessori Lyceum) never worked out for me as lack of structure and wealth of time freedom killed my effort and work ethos.
The difference between how primary and higher education was structured on a Montessori based education is to far apart of each other.
Primary Montessori education was more about getting the kids curious about the world and make them ask questions and get knowledge that way into the kid. Higher Montessori education was more like standard pumping knowledge that you have to remember for terms and tests.
I was never prepared for that higher education part in my primary education period so I went from bad to worse in my higher education before giving up totally and went to work instead. Later I did catch up when I was grown up.
Still, I am thankful for getting Montessori education as it formed my worldview and kept me curious and inquisitive the rest of my life and even now.
I do wish that in the last 3 years of my primary schooling I had more support for conquering the higher education years.
Yes
My oldest daughter attended private Montessori until age 12 when she transitioned to an exurb public Middle school in an extremely high income area.
Transition was easy because the Montessori middle school she was going to was new and hadn't gotten their legs yet, so had a pretty lackluster program. Adding to that the lack of extracurricular and club/team opportunities, and small class sizes, Montessori method starts be become a hindrance to learning the complex social dynamics you need to survive IRL.
My other kids transitioned to US public education at 8 and 10 respectively with no issues
The most difficult transition was for the 8 year old, simply because her personality fits the more loosely structured method of Montessori better, however this faded pretty quickly
Should be noted also that my kids are extremely naturally gifted and generally live in the "AP/Honors" world, so would most likely flourish anywhere. YMMV
My oldest daughter attended private Montessori until age 12 when she transitioned to an exurb public Middle school in an extremely high income area.
Transition was easy because the Montessori middle school she was going to was new and hadn't gotten their legs yet, so had a pretty lackluster program. Adding to that the lack of extracurricular and club/team opportunities, and small class sizes, Montessori method starts be become a hindrance to learning the complex social dynamics you need to survive IRL.
My other kids transitioned to US public education at 8 and 10 respectively with no issues
The most difficult transition was for the 8 year old, simply because her personality fits the more loosely structured method of Montessori better, however this faded pretty quickly
Should be noted also that my kids are extremely naturally gifted and generally live in the "AP/Honors" world, so would most likely flourish anywhere. YMMV
“ Should be noted also that my kids are extremely naturally gifted and generally live in the "AP/Honors" world, so would most likely flourish anywhere. YMMV”
All children are extremely naturally gifted, it’s the world around that always manages to grind it out of most of them. I think that also represents what Montessori was aiming for when re-thinking education.
All children are extremely naturally gifted, it’s the world around that always manages to grind it out of most of them. I think that also represents what Montessori was aiming for when re-thinking education.
I love the charity of this, and I think as a Heuristic this is a good way to approach pedagogy.
Worth recognizing however that natural variability means there's going to be people with harder times in certain areas.
Our job (collectively) as educators is to make it easy to integrate the wide range of human diversity into regular life, so as to make life easier for everyone in total.
Worth recognizing however that natural variability means there's going to be people with harder times in certain areas.
Our job (collectively) as educators is to make it easy to integrate the wide range of human diversity into regular life, so as to make life easier for everyone in total.
"All children are extremely naturally gifted, it’s the world around that always manages to grind it out of most of them."
What a load of horseshit. Say that in the special education class with 8th graders that can't read or use the bathroom on their own, despite the best efforts and attention of their teachers.
What a load of horseshit. Say that in the special education class with 8th graders that can't read or use the bathroom on their own, despite the best efforts and attention of their teachers.
Responding to a post saying children are naturally smart and gifted with "Well what about the disabled children?" isn't helpful to anybody, and purposefully misses the point of what they are saying.
“What a load of horseshit. Say that in the special education class with 8th graders that can't read or use the bathroom on their own, despite the best efforts and attention of their teachers.“ - and that comment right there is exactly what I mean by the world around them always manages to grind out the gifts.. some people never get to see it.
-- did Waldorf - it was fantastic:
https://www.masslive.com/pioneerparent/2007/09/a_tale_of_two...
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https://www.masslive.com/pioneerparent/2007/09/a_tale_of_two...
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Seconded. My kids have been in Waldorf for a couple years. I plan on keeping them in Waldorf and when they’re older maybe supplementing with extracurricular math (like Russian school of math) since Waldorf excels more in creativity, imagination, and mindfulness but weaker in STEM (but still present). But that seems like the right priority for elementary aged children.
I went to a Montessori school from pre-K through 6th grade. Overall I think it was a good experience. But the transition to traditional school was very rough. I was mostly fine academically, but socially it was brutal. I had been going to school with the same 10 people for most of my life, and then suddenly found myself in a crowd of hundreds of strangers with no clue how to make new friends. Add to that all the hormonal stuff going on with 12-13 year olds, and it's a bad scene. It took me about 3 years to acclimate. I think 7th grade is a particularly bad time to be making the transition. It might have been easier if I'd made the jump in grade 5 or 6.
The Reggio Emeila approach might be what some parents are looking for when they’ve heard about Montessori.
It was designed for children after ww2 to reintegrate with their neighborhoods and communities after being shut ins and isolated from other children. It has turned out to have especially meaningful parallels in the past few years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reggio_Emilia_approach
I have heard a lot about Montessori and how it’s relative to the practitioner. One thing that comes up is how reintegrating into society can be harder.
It was designed for children after ww2 to reintegrate with their neighborhoods and communities after being shut ins and isolated from other children. It has turned out to have especially meaningful parallels in the past few years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reggio_Emilia_approach
I have heard a lot about Montessori and how it’s relative to the practitioner. One thing that comes up is how reintegrating into society can be harder.
I went to a Montessori school through the end of grade 7 and then transitioned to a traditional school for grades 8-12. From what I can remember from the transition, it was certainly a bit jarring but ultimately I was able to adapt to the new system fairly quickly and got good grades throughout the rest of my high school education.
Regarding the Montessori experience, I have fond memories of the 7 or so years I spent there. Although it's impossible to tease out causation, I generally attribute my love of learning and personal autonomy to my years there and very much think it was worth it for me.
Regarding the Montessori experience, I have fond memories of the 7 or so years I spent there. Although it's impossible to tease out causation, I generally attribute my love of learning and personal autonomy to my years there and very much think it was worth it for me.
I went from preschool to second grade, and I thought it was OK. My teacher in first and second grade was really mean to me which caused me to beg my mom to let me go to public school as I was not willing to go back for a third year of that lady.
Overall I felt it was very restrictive on my education. My day consisted of a few required activities (copy down a few sentences by hand, do 5 addition problems, etc.) followed by doing whatever I wanted. My favorite one was putting together a cube out of these colored blocks, but there’s only so many times you can put that together. The rest of the day was basically spent in boredom as I’d exhausted all the activities that interested me. I spent a fair amount of time reading.
The restrictive part however was the complete lack of preparation on the part of the teachers to teach anything. I remember after doing addition for a while, I asked my teacher to teach me how to multiply. She said “no, that’s for third graders” and left. I basically pieced together that “two times three” meant 2+2+2 just from the way it sounded in English. What a way to shut down a child’s education.
I’m sure I had an abnormally bad experience, and my sample size isn’t enough to discredit the Montessori methodology as a whole. However, I was much happier and felt I learned a lot more from public school. My conclusion is thus that the quality of teachers is vastly more important than the methodology. If you have well-funded public schools in your area, I would definitely suggest them over a poorer private Montessori school.
Overall I felt it was very restrictive on my education. My day consisted of a few required activities (copy down a few sentences by hand, do 5 addition problems, etc.) followed by doing whatever I wanted. My favorite one was putting together a cube out of these colored blocks, but there’s only so many times you can put that together. The rest of the day was basically spent in boredom as I’d exhausted all the activities that interested me. I spent a fair amount of time reading.
The restrictive part however was the complete lack of preparation on the part of the teachers to teach anything. I remember after doing addition for a while, I asked my teacher to teach me how to multiply. She said “no, that’s for third graders” and left. I basically pieced together that “two times three” meant 2+2+2 just from the way it sounded in English. What a way to shut down a child’s education.
I’m sure I had an abnormally bad experience, and my sample size isn’t enough to discredit the Montessori methodology as a whole. However, I was much happier and felt I learned a lot more from public school. My conclusion is thus that the quality of teachers is vastly more important than the methodology. If you have well-funded public schools in your area, I would definitely suggest them over a poorer private Montessori school.
Have some experience with Montessori schools, but naturally all schools are different. Like previous posters have said, it can be very good at not beating the curiosity out of kids like some public schools can. They have a pretty good way at teaching reading too. Math is more interesting and one downside is that the skills don't always translate 1:1 if you ever transition to public schools. They will be ahead in some areas, but behind or at a loss in others. Mainly due to the order and way things are done which are very, very different.
One thing that may also be a factor is any learning differences in the child. Montessori teaching is rigid in its own way and not the best for children with dyslexia/dysgraphia (though neither are standard public school curricula). Although early Montessori math is friendlier for dyscalculia with all the use of physical objects. Depending on the school and individual guides, things like ADHD, autism may also lead to issues with the school. Thought that could be said of any private school.
The biggest thing we saw with people pulling their children out of Montessori schools were fears about academic progress and measuring their children against their neighbors' kids in public school. That's on the parent though: some needed constant feedback and validation via grades to feel like their kids were competitive with public schools.
One thing that may also be a factor is any learning differences in the child. Montessori teaching is rigid in its own way and not the best for children with dyslexia/dysgraphia (though neither are standard public school curricula). Although early Montessori math is friendlier for dyscalculia with all the use of physical objects. Depending on the school and individual guides, things like ADHD, autism may also lead to issues with the school. Thought that could be said of any private school.
The biggest thing we saw with people pulling their children out of Montessori schools were fears about academic progress and measuring their children against their neighbors' kids in public school. That's on the parent though: some needed constant feedback and validation via grades to feel like their kids were competitive with public schools.
> Montessori teaching is rigid in its own way and not the best for children with dyslexia/dysgraphia (though neither are standard public school curricula)
i didn't mention this in my comment but this point is true in my experience as well. My oldest has both dyslexia and dysgraphia and really struggled with reading the way Montessori teaches it. We had to get outside specialists and basically do a very intense summer school to get him up to speed and things figured out. Once we understood what was happening we were able to get state required accommodations at his Montessori which really helped. He's now at a public middle school magnet and doing pretty well. His reading and writing are, by far, his hardest subjects because he's basically got one hand tied behind his back because of the dyslexia/dysgraphia but the kid knows how to work and he gets through it.
edit: If i may brag, i've seen that kid of mine do things grown adults would run from. That summer school was 4 hrs a day of intense work and an absolute struggle many days ended in tears/frustration but he did it and beat dyslexia down to something he could manage. I've never seen anyone work like he did, when i'm getting lazy and phoning it in I think about him and pick up the pace.
i didn't mention this in my comment but this point is true in my experience as well. My oldest has both dyslexia and dysgraphia and really struggled with reading the way Montessori teaches it. We had to get outside specialists and basically do a very intense summer school to get him up to speed and things figured out. Once we understood what was happening we were able to get state required accommodations at his Montessori which really helped. He's now at a public middle school magnet and doing pretty well. His reading and writing are, by far, his hardest subjects because he's basically got one hand tied behind his back because of the dyslexia/dysgraphia but the kid knows how to work and he gets through it.
edit: If i may brag, i've seen that kid of mine do things grown adults would run from. That summer school was 4 hrs a day of intense work and an absolute struggle many days ended in tears/frustration but he did it and beat dyslexia down to something he could manage. I've never seen anyone work like he did, when i'm getting lazy and phoning it in I think about him and pick up the pace.
My wife is a Montessori teacher and I'll warn you to watch out for schools that are Montessori in name only. I know, I know ... as if it wasn't hard enough already.
I transferred to a Montessori school at age 10 and was there to age 12; my family moved overseas after that, so I couldn't continue. That said, it was the first time in my life that I started to enjoy learning, and really started to love math. The fact that I could learn at my own pace, and get individualized learning at the same time from my teachers was life changing for me compared to my prior public school. It's left an impression on me to this day.
Montessori from age 6 to 15.
- Self paced learning and choosing how to spend your time
- Need to collaborate with your peers on scarce resources (everyone can't read the same book / solve the same challenge at the same time)
- Small classes, no one could get away with anything/bullying
- Responsibility for completing the weekly plan yourself and being rewarded for hard work ("the diligence light is well lit" sticker you got when sharing your weekly progress - sry poorly translated Swedish"
- Self paced learning and choosing how to spend your time
- Need to collaborate with your peers on scarce resources (everyone can't read the same book / solve the same challenge at the same time)
- Small classes, no one could get away with anything/bullying
- Responsibility for completing the weekly plan yourself and being rewarded for hard work ("the diligence light is well lit" sticker you got when sharing your weekly progress - sry poorly translated Swedish"
I have a slightly negative experience to share.
I put my kid in a Montessori Preschool. The school was one giant 25-kid classroom with about 5 teachers. He absolutely loved a specific and was learning from her. He was starting to learn to read at the age of 4, super interested in everything she brought him. Then his favorite teacher left the school and it was never the same thing again. Even though he already knew the others, they could never actually get him interested in reading again or simply learning. It seems to me he didn't like the "focus time" (I forgot the name they use!) and doing activities all by himself. School as mostly boring to him, I ever wonder what the heck he was doing there all that time, 99% of the stories he shared with us happened during the little outside play time they had.
Then we put him in Public School for Kindergarten and he absolutely loved it. He loved doing the same activity as everybody else, he loved the teacher, he loved the more energetic environment. He immediately got interested in learning again.
So my conclusion is that it has much more to do with the teacher and the environment than with the method. Choose well, and trust your feelings when you see and talk to the teachers.
I put my kid in a Montessori Preschool. The school was one giant 25-kid classroom with about 5 teachers. He absolutely loved a specific and was learning from her. He was starting to learn to read at the age of 4, super interested in everything she brought him. Then his favorite teacher left the school and it was never the same thing again. Even though he already knew the others, they could never actually get him interested in reading again or simply learning. It seems to me he didn't like the "focus time" (I forgot the name they use!) and doing activities all by himself. School as mostly boring to him, I ever wonder what the heck he was doing there all that time, 99% of the stories he shared with us happened during the little outside play time they had.
Then we put him in Public School for Kindergarten and he absolutely loved it. He loved doing the same activity as everybody else, he loved the teacher, he loved the more energetic environment. He immediately got interested in learning again.
So my conclusion is that it has much more to do with the teacher and the environment than with the method. Choose well, and trust your feelings when you see and talk to the teachers.
Sorry to hear that - that sounds concerning as a parent but I'm glad your child found their way again. Agree with you that and my sense is that teachers are the foundational component of education regardless of systemic benefits/drawbacks - all the way through your adult years where someone interesting at work can light up topics that you wouldn't otherwise be interested in.
I went through 4th grade. Afterward, I found school boring, and refused to do rote homework (because it was not how I learn things, and thus a boring waste to me).
Preface, I went to a Dutch Montessori school. Curriculum is probably very different. Also school starts from the age of 4/5 and goes till 12/13. (group 1-8)
Monstessori is definitely not for everyone, I really enjoyed my time there (not counting the traumatic experiences caused by classmates). I definitely feel like the teachers there can give you a more personalized way of learning which just isn't possible on standard schools. The national curriculum did not challenge me enough and had me really struggling to do any work, eventually my teachers allowed me more time on the computer if I did my work and that worked really well for me.
For transitioning to high school, at first I quite enjoyed it as it was all new but after a while I just lost all motivation. Every meeting with my parents and the school basically came down to "We really think monkeyguy can do better, but he just doesn't seem interested". It sucked, I barely did anything and I barely passed each year. Eventually I graduated and the same thing happened with college/uni. Work life has been great however.
I'm not going to recommend anything however, I do not know your children as well as you do.
Monstessori is definitely not for everyone, I really enjoyed my time there (not counting the traumatic experiences caused by classmates). I definitely feel like the teachers there can give you a more personalized way of learning which just isn't possible on standard schools. The national curriculum did not challenge me enough and had me really struggling to do any work, eventually my teachers allowed me more time on the computer if I did my work and that worked really well for me.
For transitioning to high school, at first I quite enjoyed it as it was all new but after a while I just lost all motivation. Every meeting with my parents and the school basically came down to "We really think monkeyguy can do better, but he just doesn't seem interested". It sucked, I barely did anything and I barely passed each year. Eventually I graduated and the same thing happened with college/uni. Work life has been great however.
I'm not going to recommend anything however, I do not know your children as well as you do.
I attended Montessori school for many years and, in retrospect, I don't think it was very good for me.
Montessori education allows children freedom to explore and follow their own interests, and this lack of structure can be problematic. I was a bright kid and many things came easily to me, so when I encountered something that didn't, I would get frustrated and quit.
Unfortunately there are many topics that require pure grinding to master: multiplication tables, musical scales, foreign vocabulary[0], etc. Not only was there nobody to force me to focus on repeating difficult, unpleasant work, I also failed to learn the meta-skill of how to make myself stick at doing things I suck at.
This eventually came to hamstring me later in my education, and even in my adult career I struggle to make myself do necessary yak-shaving.[1]
[0] maybe less so for young children
[1] https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/3880...
Montessori education allows children freedom to explore and follow their own interests, and this lack of structure can be problematic. I was a bright kid and many things came easily to me, so when I encountered something that didn't, I would get frustrated and quit.
Unfortunately there are many topics that require pure grinding to master: multiplication tables, musical scales, foreign vocabulary[0], etc. Not only was there nobody to force me to focus on repeating difficult, unpleasant work, I also failed to learn the meta-skill of how to make myself stick at doing things I suck at.
This eventually came to hamstring me later in my education, and even in my adult career I struggle to make myself do necessary yak-shaving.[1]
[0] maybe less so for young children
[1] https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/3880...
> The Montessori method of education involves children's natural interests and activities rather than formal teaching methods. A Montessori classroom places an emphasis on hands-on learning and developing real-world skills. It emphasizes independence and it views children as naturally eager for knowledge and capable of initiating learning in a sufficiently supportive and well-prepared learning environment.
I attended a private Montessori for elementary school, then was home-schooled for middle school/junior high. I then went to a public (magnet art school) for high school.
The gap did provide a bit of a buffer, but I nonetheless did not care for the transition. While the systems were quite different, I believe it was more the difference in the teacher quality that had the largest impact. I was fortunate to go to a small, exceptional Montessori school before such things became ridiculously expensive, while the public school, although it had a few very good teachers, also had some very marginal ones (basically, tenured and terrible).
If the quality of teaching is similar, then I expect the transition would have been much easier. As others have noted, shop around since the teaching quality, rather than the teaching structure, is ultimately what was the starkest change for me.
The gap did provide a bit of a buffer, but I nonetheless did not care for the transition. While the systems were quite different, I believe it was more the difference in the teacher quality that had the largest impact. I was fortunate to go to a small, exceptional Montessori school before such things became ridiculously expensive, while the public school, although it had a few very good teachers, also had some very marginal ones (basically, tenured and terrible).
If the quality of teaching is similar, then I expect the transition would have been much easier. As others have noted, shop around since the teaching quality, rather than the teaching structure, is ultimately what was the starkest change for me.
Just an FYI, most schools I see that label themselves as Montessori aren't actually Montessori, they're just high performance schooling environments for young kids. In our neck of the woods it's the hip thing and well off parents will pay lots of money for it.
Are they really not using montessori methods?
Or is your critique more along the lines of the bigger driver for montessori outcomes isn't the montessori methods, but the affluence of the families?
Or is your critique more along the lines of the bigger driver for montessori outcomes isn't the montessori methods, but the affluence of the families?
That they aren't actually using montessori.
Do you have criteria though?
According to this article [0], it's pretty vague (Montessori isn't trademarked and tough to enforce) and not all schools stick to the "classic" Montessori methods, which, I guess there's a handful of certification bodies (in the US).
To this point,
> Out of more than 4,000 so-called Montessori schools across the country, only 1,250 are affiliated with the American Montessori Society (and only 204 are AMS-accredited) and about 220 are recognized by AMI.
[0] https://hechingerreport.org/will-the-real-montessori-please-...
edits: re-vamped text
According to this article [0], it's pretty vague (Montessori isn't trademarked and tough to enforce) and not all schools stick to the "classic" Montessori methods, which, I guess there's a handful of certification bodies (in the US).
To this point,
> Out of more than 4,000 so-called Montessori schools across the country, only 1,250 are affiliated with the American Montessori Society (and only 204 are AMS-accredited) and about 220 are recognized by AMI.
[0] https://hechingerreport.org/will-the-real-montessori-please-...
edits: re-vamped text
It was based upon talking with the people that ran the place, discussing with parents why they put them in the place (all were high achievement academic reasons), and discussing these issues with my mother in law, who was an early child development college teacher for 20 years and ran a preschool lab where they taught their college students, hands on, how to be preschool teachers.
I did Montessori though 4th grade. Moving to public school in 5th grade was a shock because, while I had been doing algebra self-directed, I never memorized my multiplication tables. I really resented being forced to memorize lists that I could just look up in a table (though I would freely memorize other things). So when I got into 5th grade, I failed all my math tests. I decided that didn't feel good, so I memorized those really fast. :)
In retrospect, I am really glad I moved a bit earlier, because I think going straight from Montessori to 7th grade (junior high there) would have been a big jump. Moving over while still in elementary school eased that. But that was me and my situation.
In retrospect, I am really glad I moved a bit earlier, because I think going straight from Montessori to 7th grade (junior high there) would have been a big jump. Moving over while still in elementary school eased that. But that was me and my situation.
[deleted]
> Am curious what peoples experiences from Montessori transitioning to other education systems was like and how they perceived the school worked or didn't for then? Have some children decisions and looking for outside opinions! Thanks!
I went through something similar through the end of high school. I did, however, go through public school for elementary.
My experiences mirror a lot of what others on here have already written. The transition to back to traditional education (university) wasn't an issue.
If you are already motivated, going from a low to moderately more rigorous style of learning is easy.
The issue is going in the other direction, which is why so many first year university students fail.
I went through something similar through the end of high school. I did, however, go through public school for elementary.
My experiences mirror a lot of what others on here have already written. The transition to back to traditional education (university) wasn't an issue.
If you are already motivated, going from a low to moderately more rigorous style of learning is easy.
The issue is going in the other direction, which is why so many first year university students fail.
I went to certified and uncertified montessori until mid 5th grade after public kindergarten offended my mother. It was fine and nice (especially the certified school) but going into a regular school was a bit of a culture shock. The social structure of my tiny parochial school was just so different. I can't even imagine what kids in public middle school go through (although I'm about to experience it by proxy with my own kids).
The montessori was probably a great fit for me because I couldn't sit in a desk all day after moving to regular school and got in a little trouble for being unable to do so until I was about 16.
The montessori was probably a great fit for me because I couldn't sit in a desk all day after moving to regular school and got in a little trouble for being unable to do so until I was about 16.
My daughter (14) is currently going through this scenario. She was in a Montessori school from pre-school through 8th grade. The school she went to did not offer 9-12 so we had to transition her to a more traditional school for high school. We were extremely concerned that the daily classroom structure would be a problem, but she's adapted wonderfully. Despite never having traditional grades, tests, and quizzes, she currently has all A's and B's and is doing great. Speaking for myself, I don't think I give my kids enough credit for just how adaptable/resilient they are.
We put our 2 oldest kids in Montessori.
The oldest one loved it and thrived in Montessori and stayed in it until we started a Charter school to avoid the local Middle School.
The second one HATED Montessori and we had to move him out to the local elementary school.
In the end it came down to personality. The second kid had a personality that just wouldn't work in a Montessori environment. He would do what he wanted to when he wanted to and would refuse to be redirected in any way, shape or form. Same school, mostly the same teachers, but totally opposite outcomes.
The oldest one loved it and thrived in Montessori and stayed in it until we started a Charter school to avoid the local Middle School.
The second one HATED Montessori and we had to move him out to the local elementary school.
In the end it came down to personality. The second kid had a personality that just wouldn't work in a Montessori environment. He would do what he wanted to when he wanted to and would refuse to be redirected in any way, shape or form. Same school, mostly the same teachers, but totally opposite outcomes.
> He would do what he wanted to when he wanted to and would refuse to be redirected in any way, shape or form.
In what way did a kid with this disposition like traditional school more?
Did your kid respond better to a more rigid structure?
Or was it something else?
In what way did a kid with this disposition like traditional school more?
Did your kid respond better to a more rigid structure?
Or was it something else?
It was the rigid structure.
Until he was a junior in HS he refused most guidance and advice about school and learing. Then, one day, the light came on and he did a 180 on his schoolwork and life planning.
Now studying for the MCAT to become a neurosurgeon with a minor in CS where before he was a C student.
Until he was a junior in HS he refused most guidance and advice about school and learing. Then, one day, the light came on and he did a 180 on his schoolwork and life planning.
Now studying for the MCAT to become a neurosurgeon with a minor in CS where before he was a C student.
I did, and my mom is/ has been a Montessori teacher for the last 20 years.
I loved it!!
Montessori is a style of learning, the implementation will vary according to the school though.
I loved it!!
Montessori is a style of learning, the implementation will vary according to the school though.
tldr went to Montessori, thumbs up.
I went to a Montesorri school from 1st through 4th grade. I enjoyed the atmosphere. In recent years I've read about Montessori and found that my Montessori experience was different, but much the same wrt a gentle focus on practical individual learning.
Non Montessori school was a process of checking boxes and actual thinking inbetween, while Montessori was a cycle of thinking through problems for yourself, sometimes as a group.
One thing I didn't appreciate until later school years is that Montessori blends different ages and skill levels together. I neither felt the need to keep up nor to excel, just to figure stuff out. For example, I remember a a classmate writing an essay using movable letters on a mat, but he didn't space them out so it was hard to read. I asked why he was doing it like that and the teacher responded that he had chosen to do it that way, I felt it was wrong, but instead of letting me get on a high horse, the teacher drew my attention to what I was already on my way to do. He continued to write without spaces, and I continued to think someone should correct him. Lo and behold, he learned to use spaces, all without someone, teacher nor child, scolding him, with words or with red marks. That's hard to do in typical bureaucratized classroom.
If I were pressed to find fault in Montessori itself, I'd say, it cannot succeed at all without good teachers/emotion/energy conductors, while a common classroom can get ok enough outcomes with an authority figure and good textbooks.
I went to a Montesorri school from 1st through 4th grade. I enjoyed the atmosphere. In recent years I've read about Montessori and found that my Montessori experience was different, but much the same wrt a gentle focus on practical individual learning.
Non Montessori school was a process of checking boxes and actual thinking inbetween, while Montessori was a cycle of thinking through problems for yourself, sometimes as a group.
One thing I didn't appreciate until later school years is that Montessori blends different ages and skill levels together. I neither felt the need to keep up nor to excel, just to figure stuff out. For example, I remember a a classmate writing an essay using movable letters on a mat, but he didn't space them out so it was hard to read. I asked why he was doing it like that and the teacher responded that he had chosen to do it that way, I felt it was wrong, but instead of letting me get on a high horse, the teacher drew my attention to what I was already on my way to do. He continued to write without spaces, and I continued to think someone should correct him. Lo and behold, he learned to use spaces, all without someone, teacher nor child, scolding him, with words or with red marks. That's hard to do in typical bureaucratized classroom.
If I were pressed to find fault in Montessori itself, I'd say, it cannot succeed at all without good teachers/emotion/energy conductors, while a common classroom can get ok enough outcomes with an authority figure and good textbooks.
Not me, but my wife did. Through 5th or 6th grade, I forget. She has very fond memories of it, and hated the transition into traditional school. Her account is that once she got there she was a) appalled at being expected to sit at a desk all day listening to teacher's talk or doing worksheets and b) bored as hell because she was significantly further along in her own education. Worth noting that she ended up at a pretty bottom of the barrel public school.
I was in Montessori through kindergarten. I do remember feeling a bit disadvantaged socially when I entered 1st grade in a conventional school.
Most of the other students had done kindergarten at my new school and already knew each other. I did eventually make friends, but I always felt like a bit of an outsider since I didn't have that shared kindergarten experience with my peers.
I imagine this would only get worse the longer a child stays out of the conventional schooling system.
Most of the other students had done kindergarten at my new school and already knew each other. I did eventually make friends, but I always felt like a bit of an outsider since I didn't have that shared kindergarten experience with my peers.
I imagine this would only get worse the longer a child stays out of the conventional schooling system.
I was homeschooled, but we used a lot of Montessori principles for that age range. Completely recommend. I can echo the other comments already here about how I think it strongly promoted curiosity, independence and a love of learning, at the cost of some 'social adaption' - for me, mainly when I went to university and everyone had shared experiences that I was missing, but overall totally worth it IMO if the Montessori school is good.
My wife is a Montessori teacher of 1-3rd. From what she's told me, students transitioning to Montessori should do it as early as possible. Apparently older students in the "established" system have a hard time achieving the mental switch in thinking.
What I've enjoyed is watching how lessons are very "touch" oriented. Seems every lesson has a visual or touch oriented wood tool.
The students are dividing 6 digit numbers in 2nd/3rd (!).
What I've enjoyed is watching how lessons are very "touch" oriented. Seems every lesson has a visual or touch oriented wood tool.
The students are dividing 6 digit numbers in 2nd/3rd (!).
I have very old memories (6? or earlier) for attending for a approximately a year. It might have been Waldorf, it might have been Montessori.
There were several young people who I later transferred in HS back into their district and remembered.
Lots of little learning puzzles and nap time. LOTS Of stories. In fact I would say the curriculum, and this is a long time ago, was primarily fables besides what was self-directed and puzzles. The teachers were mostly kind.
There were several young people who I later transferred in HS back into their district and remembered.
Lots of little learning puzzles and nap time. LOTS Of stories. In fact I would say the curriculum, and this is a long time ago, was primarily fables besides what was self-directed and puzzles. The teachers were mostly kind.
Very small anecdotal experience, but I was in Montessori school for grades 2-3 (in the late 80s) and it ruined my math education. When I should have been learning the standard ways to do basic math, they were teaching me nonsense like "skip counting" with rhymes. Despite coming from a family of people very good at math (which also put a focus on math education at an early age), I fell behind and never caught up.
Did it for one year. Best year of my school life. But it's a shock to go back to the public system where dynamic are adversarial and artificially oriented around superficial metrics, both for tests and social life.
You probably need both to be well adapted because the public system teaches you to defend yourself, which us necessary IRL. Montessori teaches you collaboration and thinking outside of zero sum mindset.
You probably need both to be well adapted because the public system teaches you to defend yourself, which us necessary IRL. Montessori teaches you collaboration and thinking outside of zero sum mindset.
My daughter attended Montessori through grade 8, with a stint of homeschool in there. She is in high school at an arts boarding school studying classical violin (well, and those academic things on the side…) She felt well prepared for the type of work required because of foundational experiences of independent work in Montessori. Transition was not difficult at all.
I don’t have personal experience with Montessori, but one of my best friends is a long time Montessori teacher. Just posting to echo the comments stating that different Montessori schools will operate and feel different, so do your research before enrolling to be sure the experience will be a good fit for your child.
The CEO at a previous company went to a Montessori school until middle school. He said he could barely read when he got there. He still had major problems spelling basic words in his late 60s. I guess it didn't hurt him but he was already a smart guy. It's hard to tell how much it mattered.
I sent my children to regular public elementary school. They loved it, was a great environment. They are now confident, curious, smart & successful high schoolers with loads of friends. The local Montessoris around here are 20->30k a year, a waste of money.
I went as a kid and remember it as one of the most fun moments of my life. I remember being able to do whatever I wanted. I was binge-reading some weeks, playing with fun toys with other kids other weeks, or just laying outside on the grass. This was preschool though.
Sent my kid to a Montessori in kindergarten. The thing I liked about it is that they put kids of different ages together. From what I've seen, kids learn fastest when they're put with kids slightly more proficient than themselves.
I did attend this type of school. It was only for kindergarten, but I have interesting memories of it, and feel like it had a strong influence on the rest of my education and life thereafter.
In our middle school cross country league, the Montessori school is the only private school, and they always finish dead last as a team.
My ex did, she loved it.
She largely outperformed all her peers later in life.
She largely outperformed all her peers later in life.
My wife did. She's now also a teacher. If you've got a contact email, I'm sure she'd be happy to answers any specific questions.
My daycare had it. I don't really know if it made a difference or what I think about it or what it even is. My mom liked it, I guess?
there are advantages to both systems. alternative schools are more like an idealized & harmonious version of the world while public ed mirrors the dysfunction and corporatocracy of 'real life' (and not to mention the blatant incuriosity & joylessness of managerial figures)
hippie school teaches you how to love the world, state school teaches you how to live in it.
hippie school teaches you how to love the world, state school teaches you how to live in it.
Montessori was bad for me. At least the Montessori I was placed in.
I need to find out where it was (and how old I was - I would guess 5 or 6), but the situation is that I was not ready (or perhaps not the right type of kid) for Montessori.
I was painfully shy, and I'd avoid attention.
The teachers (there were 2 I believe) must have been happy to ignore me. How else do you spend an entire year not paying attention to a student? Perhaps they were overworked.
I'd spend a lot of time in the bathroom, or ... I'm not even sure what. Playing with something, but generally not learning.
The strong theme of these comments here are how Montessori really allowed some to thrive, but I cannot imagine that - it was very much not my experience. Perhaps that was me, or perhaps it was that particular school. Likely both.
I have a distinct memory of another student (a friend) learning the alphabet. A teacher was spending time with him, letting him draw the letters out. For whatever reason, I wanted to be included in that. Even at that young age, I suspect I knew that something was off. I wanted that attention as well.
I expressed interest in doing what my friend was doing (I'm not sure what - writing out the alphabet perhaps), but was told no. I don't remember why, this was some 30+ years ago now - but I recall that rejection.
I eventually went to public school, but was very nearly held back. I didn't know anything!
My mother interceded and I was allowed to stay in that grade (which is good, I'm still on the older side for my grade - holding me back could have been even more awkward).
She helped me learn what I needed to know at home - I imagine it was quite the effort.
I still wonder why I was put in that position to begin with! You think they would know that I wasn't learning anything, but I'll bet it was easy to hide.
Kids born in the 80's and 90's tended to have parents who were very hands-off it seems (certainly my case, and anecdotally, that seems to the trend of those times). I've asked what was going on before, but answering specifics from decisions from 30 years ago is a tough question for a parent in their 70's now. They were probably struggling with money at the time and had their own worries.
I'm not sure I'll send my kids to Montessori, although I suspect they would thrive where I did not. Parents now a days (me!) are much more involved in their kids lives (for better or worse) and I imagine between internet reviews and us being top of it, my own issue wouldn't be repeated for my kids.
I need to find out where it was (and how old I was - I would guess 5 or 6), but the situation is that I was not ready (or perhaps not the right type of kid) for Montessori.
I was painfully shy, and I'd avoid attention.
The teachers (there were 2 I believe) must have been happy to ignore me. How else do you spend an entire year not paying attention to a student? Perhaps they were overworked.
I'd spend a lot of time in the bathroom, or ... I'm not even sure what. Playing with something, but generally not learning.
The strong theme of these comments here are how Montessori really allowed some to thrive, but I cannot imagine that - it was very much not my experience. Perhaps that was me, or perhaps it was that particular school. Likely both.
I have a distinct memory of another student (a friend) learning the alphabet. A teacher was spending time with him, letting him draw the letters out. For whatever reason, I wanted to be included in that. Even at that young age, I suspect I knew that something was off. I wanted that attention as well.
I expressed interest in doing what my friend was doing (I'm not sure what - writing out the alphabet perhaps), but was told no. I don't remember why, this was some 30+ years ago now - but I recall that rejection.
I eventually went to public school, but was very nearly held back. I didn't know anything!
My mother interceded and I was allowed to stay in that grade (which is good, I'm still on the older side for my grade - holding me back could have been even more awkward).
She helped me learn what I needed to know at home - I imagine it was quite the effort.
I still wonder why I was put in that position to begin with! You think they would know that I wasn't learning anything, but I'll bet it was easy to hide.
Kids born in the 80's and 90's tended to have parents who were very hands-off it seems (certainly my case, and anecdotally, that seems to the trend of those times). I've asked what was going on before, but answering specifics from decisions from 30 years ago is a tough question for a parent in their 70's now. They were probably struggling with money at the time and had their own worries.
I'm not sure I'll send my kids to Montessori, although I suspect they would thrive where I did not. Parents now a days (me!) are much more involved in their kids lives (for better or worse) and I imagine between internet reviews and us being top of it, my own issue wouldn't be repeated for my kids.
> She helped me learn what I needed to know at home
Assuming this _wasn't_ the case when you were at Montessori - which goes against one of the core principles of "school is an extension of home". It's understandable, of course (you said it yourself, especially with the 'hands off' nature of that time), but kids generally thrive when education is a life thing, and not a 'school' thing.
> You think they would know that I wasn't learning anything
Teachers in any ecosystem can fail (intentional or not) with specific kids. Perhaps they knew, perhaps they didn't, but again, if school is an extension of home, as a parent it should be very, very easy to pick up on. It's not uncommon in any stream to have parents say "my kid isn't advancing like i thought" or "my kid is struggling with their reading, how are you helping?".
> I was painfully shy, and I'd avoid attention.
This is my son. These days we call the behaviour mostly being "an observer" because at the end of the day that's what he does if he's not engaged with himself, and I hate the term 'shy' as it's generally pretty negative (that's me, too, even as an adult).
Montessori school has been fantastic for him - he's really flourished and his development has well and truely exceeded my expectations (both academically and socially). Being 'shy' hasn't caused his teachers, or 'Montessori' as a framework to fail him this far.
Again - it could be any teacher, any student in any school that fails. I'm sorry your initial environment failed you and I'm happy you saw success elsewhere! My daughter is the polar opposite of my son in every way, and I'm very excited to see her start school.
Assuming this _wasn't_ the case when you were at Montessori - which goes against one of the core principles of "school is an extension of home". It's understandable, of course (you said it yourself, especially with the 'hands off' nature of that time), but kids generally thrive when education is a life thing, and not a 'school' thing.
> You think they would know that I wasn't learning anything
Teachers in any ecosystem can fail (intentional or not) with specific kids. Perhaps they knew, perhaps they didn't, but again, if school is an extension of home, as a parent it should be very, very easy to pick up on. It's not uncommon in any stream to have parents say "my kid isn't advancing like i thought" or "my kid is struggling with their reading, how are you helping?".
> I was painfully shy, and I'd avoid attention.
This is my son. These days we call the behaviour mostly being "an observer" because at the end of the day that's what he does if he's not engaged with himself, and I hate the term 'shy' as it's generally pretty negative (that's me, too, even as an adult).
Montessori school has been fantastic for him - he's really flourished and his development has well and truely exceeded my expectations (both academically and socially). Being 'shy' hasn't caused his teachers, or 'Montessori' as a framework to fail him this far.
Again - it could be any teacher, any student in any school that fails. I'm sorry your initial environment failed you and I'm happy you saw success elsewhere! My daughter is the polar opposite of my son in every way, and I'm very excited to see her start school.
I love the description of an observer, I think that’s apt! “not engaged with himself” resonates for me.
I do think my parents must have been checked out for a spell there - overworked and under payed. As kids you don’t necessarily notice but looking back I’ll bet that was the case.
I do think my parents must have been checked out for a spell there - overworked and under payed. As kids you don’t necessarily notice but looking back I’ll bet that was the case.
i don't think we'll go through 6th grade ($$$$), but we have our youngest in Montessori pre-K and love it. Since our local school doesn't have full day kindergarten, we'll likely keep him there through that as well.
I did, best thing my parents ever did for me.
not montessori, but i was in an "applied scholastics" (scientology) school for a few years. what a trip that was.
I didn't even know this existed. Going to have to look it up!!
Any juicy stories?
You should write a book, it will sell
An old friend of mine, who's now a crazy antivaxxer, sends his kids to Montessori because the public schools won't take his kids. Makes me wonder what'll happen after Montessori.
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My wife went to this indian alternative education school, a boarding school called Rishi Valley. They've opened many branches now, though I can't speak for the ones I don't know, all based on the philosophy of Jiddu Krishnamurti; you can read more about them here: https://jkrishnamurti.org/schools
Rishi Valley's teachning style is, honestly, what I wish my education had been. I remember being a kid and asking my teacher for "more", questions about what happens _beyond_ what we had just learned, and them saying "don't worry about it, you'll learn next year". Rishi Valley's approach is "why don't you come later and I'll show you? is anyone else interested?". They really try to emphasize learning for the sake of learning, and kids can choose from multiple subjects.
The teachers are often PhDs who have decided that they care a lot about education. Since it's a not for profit school, they're not paid a lot, but they live on campus, and get to interact with kids all day everyday. Most of the money the school gets is put back into rural education.
Now, the transition back to the "standard" system when the kids have to go to college is not smooth. Most of the ones I've talked to mention that they were extremely overwhelmed with the "rat-race" and the fact that everyone was so competitive, where they had been focusing on learning for the sake of learning. Everyone I've met from this school is very good at critical-thinking, and they don't accept a conclusion just because "someone said so", they will fact-check, do their own research, debate, ... Which I think should be the goal of education.
My anecdotal experience is that they overperform their non-weird-school peers though. But is that due to the teaching itself? Or is it maybe because the kind of parents who would put their kids in this school already did some sort of ground-work? I'm not sure!
Rishi Valley's teachning style is, honestly, what I wish my education had been. I remember being a kid and asking my teacher for "more", questions about what happens _beyond_ what we had just learned, and them saying "don't worry about it, you'll learn next year". Rishi Valley's approach is "why don't you come later and I'll show you? is anyone else interested?". They really try to emphasize learning for the sake of learning, and kids can choose from multiple subjects.
The teachers are often PhDs who have decided that they care a lot about education. Since it's a not for profit school, they're not paid a lot, but they live on campus, and get to interact with kids all day everyday. Most of the money the school gets is put back into rural education.
Now, the transition back to the "standard" system when the kids have to go to college is not smooth. Most of the ones I've talked to mention that they were extremely overwhelmed with the "rat-race" and the fact that everyone was so competitive, where they had been focusing on learning for the sake of learning. Everyone I've met from this school is very good at critical-thinking, and they don't accept a conclusion just because "someone said so", they will fact-check, do their own research, debate, ... Which I think should be the goal of education.
My anecdotal experience is that they overperform their non-weird-school peers though. But is that due to the teaching itself? Or is it maybe because the kind of parents who would put their kids in this school already did some sort of ground-work? I'm not sure!