My ADHD founder toolbox(hypatia.ca)
hypatia.ca
My ADHD founder toolbox
https://hypatia.ca/2022/03/03/my-adhd-founder-toolbox/
406 comments
I was diagnosed when I was six, and, like you, I dropped all meds at 17. Recently (as in, this year) through a combination of therapy and introspection, I realized that while indeed I was able to have a successful life, career, relationships without the medication, and that, yes, my coping mechanisms were satisfactory, I was
punching myself in the face for no reason
Last month I saw a psychiatrist and got a prescription for stimulant medication for the first time in 20 years. After a week I had to sit down and just cry: stuff which was difficult or stressful was just simple, and at the end of the day I have so much more energy to do things, to be present, to live my life. The medication is an aid, a crutch, sure, and I don't need it, but it makes my life better, easier, less stressful and less tiring.
Why are you punching yourself in the face for no reason?
punching myself in the face for no reason
Last month I saw a psychiatrist and got a prescription for stimulant medication for the first time in 20 years. After a week I had to sit down and just cry: stuff which was difficult or stressful was just simple, and at the end of the day I have so much more energy to do things, to be present, to live my life. The medication is an aid, a crutch, sure, and I don't need it, but it makes my life better, easier, less stressful and less tiring.
Why are you punching yourself in the face for no reason?
Without meds, the constant feeling was that life was moving a little faster than me. I had to put a lot of effort just to stay apace, and taking a day off means having a day and a half of stuff to do tomorrow.
I don't need meds to live. I need meds not to feel hollow in my soul. If I think about doing something that is meaningful, I need my meds to up and do it. Otherwise it's living the life of someone with really great plans that are unable to leave their head. It is hellish.
Now I have 35 unmedicated years to catch up to.
I don't need meds to live. I need meds not to feel hollow in my soul. If I think about doing something that is meaningful, I need my meds to up and do it. Otherwise it's living the life of someone with really great plans that are unable to leave their head. It is hellish.
Now I have 35 unmedicated years to catch up to.
No need to feel so bad (edited from: be so negative) about meds. They’re a crutch, sure, or maybe a wheelchair. But you wouldn’t begrudge a disabled person their wheelchair, would you?
Or if you dislike thinking of it as a disability (even if there’s nothing morally wrong with being disabled): a pair of glasses.
Do we really think less of people (or in this case likely ourselves) for using a wheelchair or wearing glasses?
Or if you dislike thinking of it as a disability (even if there’s nothing morally wrong with being disabled): a pair of glasses.
Do we really think less of people (or in this case likely ourselves) for using a wheelchair or wearing glasses?
I think you're arguing the exact opposite point of the parent (and agreeing with them), they never said they look down or think less of people who use meds, they themselves use meds.
Sure, I agree with them, but I also know there are a lot of mixed feelings around stimulant medication due to the attached stigma. And it bears repeating that using ones prescribed medication is not a moral failing. Especially in people who have stopped using it before and for those who might still be on the fence.
But I've changed my phrasing, just to be clear.
But I've changed my phrasing, just to be clear.
I don't care about stigma, but comparing a drug to a wheel chair is just ridiculous.
I don't want to get addicted to another thing in my life, here in Europe we're quite familiar with (ab)using speed (amphetamine paste) and the idea of being on speed every single day seems pretty bad.
I don't feel "more like myself" on speed and I seriously doubt most positive effect would persist after a year of using and rising tolerance.
I don't want to get addicted to another thing in my life, here in Europe we're quite familiar with (ab)using speed (amphetamine paste) and the idea of being on speed every single day seems pretty bad.
I don't feel "more like myself" on speed and I seriously doubt most positive effect would persist after a year of using and rising tolerance.
> comparing a drug to a wheel chair is just ridiculous.
Not every disability is visible. By definition they have a significant impact on someones life, as such there isn’t use for competition.
A wheelchair is a great comparison. Both enable someone to do something they previously couldn’t. Both are temporary, and stop being useful when removed. Both have a very different effect on someone who does not need them.
> I don't want to get addicted to another thing in my life FWIW, among those I know with ADHD taking stimulant meds, addiction is not a concern but remembering to take them is.
> I don't feel "more like myself" on speed
Do you have a deficit of dopamine, serotonin and norepinephrine? If not you’re experience will be very different from someone who does. Even then, some stimulants work better for certain people, and for other only non-stimulants work. Our brains are complex, and our experiences are not universal. Speed is also a pretty catch all term, and the ratios of salts have a huge impact on the effect. It may not be very comparable to pharmaceuticals.
> I seriously doubt most positive effect would persist after a year of using and rising tolerance.
People have been taking stimulants for ADHD for decades, but I think its effect is not what you think to an ADHD brain. It’s more akin to reading glasses.
Not every disability is visible. By definition they have a significant impact on someones life, as such there isn’t use for competition.
A wheelchair is a great comparison. Both enable someone to do something they previously couldn’t. Both are temporary, and stop being useful when removed. Both have a very different effect on someone who does not need them.
> I don't want to get addicted to another thing in my life FWIW, among those I know with ADHD taking stimulant meds, addiction is not a concern but remembering to take them is.
> I don't feel "more like myself" on speed
Do you have a deficit of dopamine, serotonin and norepinephrine? If not you’re experience will be very different from someone who does. Even then, some stimulants work better for certain people, and for other only non-stimulants work. Our brains are complex, and our experiences are not universal. Speed is also a pretty catch all term, and the ratios of salts have a huge impact on the effect. It may not be very comparable to pharmaceuticals.
> I seriously doubt most positive effect would persist after a year of using and rising tolerance.
People have been taking stimulants for ADHD for decades, but I think its effect is not what you think to an ADHD brain. It’s more akin to reading glasses.
> Do you have a deficit of dopamine, serotonin and norepinephrine?
What evidence exists that points this is the cause of ADHD? Wouldn't a dopamine deficit be more akin to Parkinson's Disease?
Also, last I remember reading, I am pretty sure we are not fully aware of why stimulants help people with ADHD. I think the leading hypothesis is that dopamine plays a role somehow, but I thought that he yet to be fully observed.
What evidence exists that points this is the cause of ADHD? Wouldn't a dopamine deficit be more akin to Parkinson's Disease?
Also, last I remember reading, I am pretty sure we are not fully aware of why stimulants help people with ADHD. I think the leading hypothesis is that dopamine plays a role somehow, but I thought that he yet to be fully observed.
This article from about ten years ago asserts that "a highly cohesive story [was] emerging regarding the etiology and treatment of ADHD": https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2894421/ and gives an overview of that etiology, which concerns norepinephrine and dopamine in the prefrontal cortex.
> I don't care about stigma, but comparing a drug to a wheel chair is just ridiculous.
Why? Just because it comes in a pill form, instead of being conspicuous, doesn't make it any less of a help for a medical condition.
> I don't want to get addicted to another thing in my life,
The point of this comparison is that "being addicted to" ADHD meds is not in the category of "being addicted to heroine" - it's in the category of "being addicted to a wheelchair" when you could technically just use your hands to crawl around and grab things, instead of aiding yourself with technology.
> the idea of being on speed every single day seems pretty bad
Stimulant medication aren't speed, they're like "1/100 speed". It turns out that with medicine (not just psychiatric), the effects don't scale linearly or continuously with dose size. That's why those meds are helpful and safe to take in therapeutic doses, despite being technically dangerous, addictive drugs in much larger drug abuser doses.
> I seriously doubt most positive effect would persist after a year of using and rising tolerance.
Countless of people who have been treating their ADHD with stimulant medication continuously, for years or decades, will beg to disagree.
Nobody says you have to take meds for ADHD treatment, or that you have to take stimulants (there are other options available, although typically less effective). Hell, on some people with ADHD, stimulants don't work at all, or side effects are not worth the cost. But comparing them to speed is just wrong and irresponsible, as it makes people afraid of trying what could be effective treatment.
Why? Just because it comes in a pill form, instead of being conspicuous, doesn't make it any less of a help for a medical condition.
> I don't want to get addicted to another thing in my life,
The point of this comparison is that "being addicted to" ADHD meds is not in the category of "being addicted to heroine" - it's in the category of "being addicted to a wheelchair" when you could technically just use your hands to crawl around and grab things, instead of aiding yourself with technology.
> the idea of being on speed every single day seems pretty bad
Stimulant medication aren't speed, they're like "1/100 speed". It turns out that with medicine (not just psychiatric), the effects don't scale linearly or continuously with dose size. That's why those meds are helpful and safe to take in therapeutic doses, despite being technically dangerous, addictive drugs in much larger drug abuser doses.
> I seriously doubt most positive effect would persist after a year of using and rising tolerance.
Countless of people who have been treating their ADHD with stimulant medication continuously, for years or decades, will beg to disagree.
Nobody says you have to take meds for ADHD treatment, or that you have to take stimulants (there are other options available, although typically less effective). Hell, on some people with ADHD, stimulants don't work at all, or side effects are not worth the cost. But comparing them to speed is just wrong and irresponsible, as it makes people afraid of trying what could be effective treatment.
And yet I'm seeing here a whole thread of people talking about astronomical doses, reduced effects after tolerance kicks in, negative experiences and so on. So classic drug talk.
Seems pretty strange that I should take your sourceless claims as gospel over theirs.
>Stimulant medication aren't speed, they're like "1/100 speed".
These are literally two identical substances with almost identical effects (the only difference is the ration of amph salts). Difference is dosage.
Can't understand why would you claim what you say, when Adderall is used and abused in the same exact manner as amphetamine paste is in Europe. Anecdotally I hear in USA they throw it at you like candy.
>But comparing them to speed is just wrong and irresponsible,
I stand by what I said, if you saw the numbers of amphetamine addicts on the street in USA the same way you see opoid addicts, you would have a different national perspective on these drugs.
>it makes people afraid of trying what could be effective treatment
Yes, they should be cautions in my opinion.
I personally am not taking any new chances with addiction, even though I'm sure I would have benefits, at least short term.
I'll just hobble along. Using crutches can make physical rehabilitation impossible.
Seems pretty strange that I should take your sourceless claims as gospel over theirs.
>Stimulant medication aren't speed, they're like "1/100 speed".
These are literally two identical substances with almost identical effects (the only difference is the ration of amph salts). Difference is dosage.
Can't understand why would you claim what you say, when Adderall is used and abused in the same exact manner as amphetamine paste is in Europe. Anecdotally I hear in USA they throw it at you like candy.
>But comparing them to speed is just wrong and irresponsible,
I stand by what I said, if you saw the numbers of amphetamine addicts on the street in USA the same way you see opoid addicts, you would have a different national perspective on these drugs.
>it makes people afraid of trying what could be effective treatment
Yes, they should be cautions in my opinion.
I personally am not taking any new chances with addiction, even though I'm sure I would have benefits, at least short term.
I'll just hobble along. Using crutches can make physical rehabilitation impossible.
> sourceless claims
Excuse me? There's roughly 60 years of research into the effectiveness of stimulants as a treatment for ADHD. It is probably the single best researched psychiatric drug.
While it's always useful to discuss a proven treatments relevance in the light of newly discovered alternatives, there really is no (significant) doubt in the scientific community about the effectiveness of stimulants. Given the body of evidence, I would say it's more fair to ask you to add some citations to your comments.
> These are literally two identical substances
Yes, they are. That doesn't mean that in patients with a dopamine dysregulation they don't have great therapeutic effect. One could call the euphoria nothing but an unfortunate side-effect leading to abuse in the general population.
> numbers of amphetamine addicts
So, there are addicts. That has nothing to do with therapeutic use.
> Yes, they should be cautions in my opinion.
Since they aren't prescribed to self-diagnosed ADHD patients, there should always be a doctor involved. And I can tell you the titration and monitoring is taken quite seriously, at least where I'm from.
> Using crutches can make physical rehabilitation impossible.
If you're missing a leg, that rehabilitation is going to take a long long time. As will be the case with ADHD. You might learn to cope better, but your symptoms aren’t going anywhere. ADHD isn’t something that generally gets better with age, although better coping skills may mean some people don’t experience as much of an impact on life.
And yes, stimulants are a crutch, but they do help people function better despite their disability.
Excuse me? There's roughly 60 years of research into the effectiveness of stimulants as a treatment for ADHD. It is probably the single best researched psychiatric drug.
While it's always useful to discuss a proven treatments relevance in the light of newly discovered alternatives, there really is no (significant) doubt in the scientific community about the effectiveness of stimulants. Given the body of evidence, I would say it's more fair to ask you to add some citations to your comments.
> These are literally two identical substances
Yes, they are. That doesn't mean that in patients with a dopamine dysregulation they don't have great therapeutic effect. One could call the euphoria nothing but an unfortunate side-effect leading to abuse in the general population.
> numbers of amphetamine addicts
So, there are addicts. That has nothing to do with therapeutic use.
> Yes, they should be cautions in my opinion.
Since they aren't prescribed to self-diagnosed ADHD patients, there should always be a doctor involved. And I can tell you the titration and monitoring is taken quite seriously, at least where I'm from.
> Using crutches can make physical rehabilitation impossible.
If you're missing a leg, that rehabilitation is going to take a long long time. As will be the case with ADHD. You might learn to cope better, but your symptoms aren’t going anywhere. ADHD isn’t something that generally gets better with age, although better coping skills may mean some people don’t experience as much of an impact on life.
And yes, stimulants are a crutch, but they do help people function better despite their disability.
This thread really describes the issues with all drug use. Drugs (licit or illicit) affect people differently.
So instead of focusing on bespoke medications we try to ban them all if a small percentage of people have addictive natures or negative side effects.
How about we agree that drugs can be beneficial and harmful, but keep them legal for the large percentage of people it actually helps.
So instead of focusing on bespoke medications we try to ban them all if a small percentage of people have addictive natures or negative side effects.
How about we agree that drugs can be beneficial and harmful, but keep them legal for the large percentage of people it actually helps.
I really don't care about the drug or addiction when the alternative is not taking it and not remaining employed. For me I need medication to keep a job if I could. Have a fun and free-wheeling life without employment and without medication. I would totally do that but the reality is in this world you need a job to earn money for everyday life.
"It helps me stay in my golden cage" is what I tell my GFriend.
I don't give a shit about my job but it allowed me to buy a house, take vacations and sometimes buy an extensive toy.
I would gladly stay in my own world and daydream away, doing some woodworking and see birds in my garden but if I lose my job all that will go away.
So I take my ~3€/day pill and try to do my best. I've lost so many opportunities before getting diagnosed...
I don't give a shit about my job but it allowed me to buy a house, take vacations and sometimes buy an extensive toy.
I would gladly stay in my own world and daydream away, doing some woodworking and see birds in my garden but if I lose my job all that will go away.
So I take my ~3€/day pill and try to do my best. I've lost so many opportunities before getting diagnosed...
> doing some woodworking
I'd only manage that for about two days before giving up without the meds, heh
I'd only manage that for about two days before giving up without the meds, heh
I've been taking Elvanse for 6 months. If I don't make the conscious effort I will not take it... I feel like addiction is not a worry at all.
It allowed me to stop eating my feelings (which allowed me to lose 13kg and counting), made me stop drinking, I still play games but can stop whenever.
I know I will surely have to take it my whole life (days I don't, I'm a wreck) but I see it as a diabetic needing insuline.
It allowed me to stop eating my feelings (which allowed me to lose 13kg and counting), made me stop drinking, I still play games but can stop whenever.
I know I will surely have to take it my whole life (days I don't, I'm a wreck) but I see it as a diabetic needing insuline.
One interesting point about stimulant meds: they also help people who don't have the ADHD diagnosis. The black market for stimulants is pretty sizeable, not to mention the legit market for things like coffee.
Some people who do black market stimulants are essentially just self medicating. Both is not black and white.
My partner always had a thing for amphetamines, and was more functional under influence. It just took a doctor to confirm and subscribe them to suddenly make it legal. I could not say the same about myself, amphetamines just make me more awake but not more functional.
My partner always had a thing for amphetamines, and was more functional under influence. It just took a doctor to confirm and subscribe them to suddenly make it legal. I could not say the same about myself, amphetamines just make me more awake but not more functional.
Coffee brightens the person that has had 8 hours sleep too.
But indubitably, the person on 2 hours needs it much more.
But indubitably, the person on 2 hours needs it much more.
I've tried my GF's meds once to see what it was (and using medication is one of the diagnosis tools they use); I found myself focusing and intetionally task switching for about two hours (that and palpitations), but I wouldn't say they "help"ed me.
If you feel like you need stimulants to perform well in a job, you need to reconsider your career choices. It shouldn't be a rat race.
If you feel like you need stimulants to perform well in a job, you need to reconsider your career choices. It shouldn't be a rat race.
> I've tried my GF's meds once to see what it was (and using medication is one of the diagnosis tools they use);
Medication is a useful diagnosis tool, because the effects when it helps can be utterly profound. For me it was like I’d fully woken up for the first time in my life. My body physically calmed down, and I went from spending the majority of my idle time daydreaming to being calm and present in the world.
Please don’t take other peoples pills though, they’re tightly controlled usually with no buffer. If you take someones pill, that means they’ll have to reduce or skip a day. Imagine stealing someones reading glasses for a day—they’re gonna have to persist and deal with the possible migraine/eye pain.
> I found myself focusing and intetionally task switching for about two hours (that and palpitations), but I wouldn't say they "help"ed me.
You don’t need them. What you experienced is not what your GF experiences.
If you put on someone else’s prescription glasses, would you complain that they didn’t help you?
> It shouldn't be a rat race.
Everyone I know on stimulants for ADHD (myself included) would agree that the stimulants help them escape feeling they’re in a rat race.
A trait of ADHD is know precisely what needs to be done, and being incapable of making it happen. Medication helps with that. It’s not a cure. It doesn’t fix everything. It just makes some things easier.
Medication is a useful diagnosis tool, because the effects when it helps can be utterly profound. For me it was like I’d fully woken up for the first time in my life. My body physically calmed down, and I went from spending the majority of my idle time daydreaming to being calm and present in the world.
Please don’t take other peoples pills though, they’re tightly controlled usually with no buffer. If you take someones pill, that means they’ll have to reduce or skip a day. Imagine stealing someones reading glasses for a day—they’re gonna have to persist and deal with the possible migraine/eye pain.
> I found myself focusing and intetionally task switching for about two hours (that and palpitations), but I wouldn't say they "help"ed me.
You don’t need them. What you experienced is not what your GF experiences.
If you put on someone else’s prescription glasses, would you complain that they didn’t help you?
> It shouldn't be a rat race.
Everyone I know on stimulants for ADHD (myself included) would agree that the stimulants help them escape feeling they’re in a rat race.
A trait of ADHD is know precisely what needs to be done, and being incapable of making it happen. Medication helps with that. It’s not a cure. It doesn’t fix everything. It just makes some things easier.
It allows me (us?) to make conscious change. It didn't fix everything, it allows me to see more than 1 week ahead and make conscious decision to acquire new knowledge and automatism.
I never had a racing heart taking it and it didn't elevate my tension. It allows me to take a nap when I want without those racing thoughts about "life"
I never had a racing heart taking it and it didn't elevate my tension. It allows me to take a nap when I want without those racing thoughts about "life"
> If you feel like you need stimulants to perform well in a job, you need to reconsider your career choices.
OR you may have a medical condition such as ADHD where stimulants are a useful prescribed tool to deal with it. Not everyone who needs stimulants to work is abusing them.
OR you may have a medical condition such as ADHD where stimulants are a useful prescribed tool to deal with it. Not everyone who needs stimulants to work is abusing them.
>If you feel like you need stimulants to perform well in a job, you need to reconsider your career choices. It shouldn't be a rat race.
Would you say the same thing to someone with a physical handicap? I.e., "If you feel like you need a wheelchair to get around, you need to reconsider going outside the house"
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, not saying you'd say something like that, but consider it from the medical perspective. Someone shouldn't have to struggle with a handicap just because it's mental instead of physical.
Would you say the same thing to someone with a physical handicap? I.e., "If you feel like you need a wheelchair to get around, you need to reconsider going outside the house"
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, not saying you'd say something like that, but consider it from the medical perspective. Someone shouldn't have to struggle with a handicap just because it's mental instead of physical.
>If you feel like you need stimulants to perform well in a job, you need to reconsider your career choices. It shouldn't be a rat race.
If you need Ed medicine to have sex maybe you shouldn't have sex.
If you need asthma medicine to breath maybe you should think twice about breathing.
Seriously, you don't have a clue about what you're talking about. Neuro divergents are almost an evolution good or bad (hyper focus can have it's benefits), most medicine for the brain is liable to do the opposite.
Caffeine and ginseng are like really good cold medicine to my wife she practically goes into a coma.
If you don't think people's brain work differently:
Do you have an inner monologue?
- yes? - talk to someone who doesn't, there's many, I found this absurd because mine is always going. - No? Talk to someone who does... Try to imagine what it'd
Repeat the above for people with synesthesia or aphantasia.
Reality, the brain, consciousness... It all exists within the circuitry of our brain and the flow of electricity and hormones paint your experiences in life
With a deficiency in dopamine which we all mostly have (ADHD), you do need help.
For you, you could end up overdosing on dopamine which itself can cause some major mental issues.
Best to lay off other people's meds.
Hell, I take Vyvanse my wife Adderall, when I ran out I took hers as she's on a dose that about matches my vyvanse but they have different internal mechanism.
Adderall gave me anxiety, depression, and jitters.
Even within ADHD circles it's probably best to stick with the meds you're prescribed.
If you need Ed medicine to have sex maybe you shouldn't have sex.
If you need asthma medicine to breath maybe you should think twice about breathing.
Seriously, you don't have a clue about what you're talking about. Neuro divergents are almost an evolution good or bad (hyper focus can have it's benefits), most medicine for the brain is liable to do the opposite.
Caffeine and ginseng are like really good cold medicine to my wife she practically goes into a coma.
If you don't think people's brain work differently:
Do you have an inner monologue?
- yes? - talk to someone who doesn't, there's many, I found this absurd because mine is always going. - No? Talk to someone who does... Try to imagine what it'd
Repeat the above for people with synesthesia or aphantasia.
Reality, the brain, consciousness... It all exists within the circuitry of our brain and the flow of electricity and hormones paint your experiences in life
With a deficiency in dopamine which we all mostly have (ADHD), you do need help.
For you, you could end up overdosing on dopamine which itself can cause some major mental issues.
Best to lay off other people's meds.
Hell, I take Vyvanse my wife Adderall, when I ran out I took hers as she's on a dose that about matches my vyvanse but they have different internal mechanism.
Adderall gave me anxiety, depression, and jitters.
Even within ADHD circles it's probably best to stick with the meds you're prescribed.
I'm right there with you, getting medication that worked for me made a huge difference. I can now just get up and do a thing without feeling like I have to tear down a wall to do it. It doesn't hurt my brain to have my focus interrupted, and I can get back to what I was doing right away.
The best explanation I've seen is this comic: https://teddit.net/r/ADHDmemes/comments/pmrh5d/quite_possibl...
The best explanation I've seen is this comic: https://teddit.net/r/ADHDmemes/comments/pmrh5d/quite_possibl...
I'm glad the meds have helped you, and I hope other people try them too if they think they need help.
In many cases you just can't get them. My psych basically told me to just give up my career.
I know exactly how you feel, but I there is a bigger question: how well do these medications do in the medium term (counted in months)? I have read people testify how the initial boost evaporates, and when things come back to normal, they have to either continue the drug for not much benefit or face withdrawal.
Edit: to clarify, I'm not telling anyone not to try medication. Everyone's response will be different. Just beware of the initial euphoria.
Edit: to clarify, I'm not telling anyone not to try medication. Everyone's response will be different. Just beware of the initial euphoria.
No idea, but habituation is a much bigger deal than people give it credit for.
I did the titration regimen after my diagnosis with a licensed psychiatrist and ADHD specialist, so you start very low and test a dosage for a month at a time. You increase it slightly until side effects are noticeable, then you scale back. This was my timeline:
Euphoria lasts perhaps two days, and you're on the lowest dose so it's pretty mild. You're just doing something and feeling happy about yourself. Good, it's a side-effect, and needs to go ASAP. Many people start on too high a dosage, so euphoria lasts maybe weeks, and when it stops they think it stopped working. This opens the doors to abuse, especially in teenagers.
Adaptation, during which other negative side effects start to lessen, lasts about 10 days.
Then there's peak productivity with little side effects for 6 months or so.
Then you start to question if it is still doing anything. There are days that you just don't feel like doing much. Take a couple days off, and it's obvious it was working all along. Without it you're still unproductive and scatter-brained as you've always been without. Also, you've started getting good at using this new powerful tool, but still don't know what to do with it. This is where I'm at at the moment.
--
When you're used to having good days, good days become normal days and it is very hard to remain objective in your assessment.
I did the titration regimen after my diagnosis with a licensed psychiatrist and ADHD specialist, so you start very low and test a dosage for a month at a time. You increase it slightly until side effects are noticeable, then you scale back. This was my timeline:
Euphoria lasts perhaps two days, and you're on the lowest dose so it's pretty mild. You're just doing something and feeling happy about yourself. Good, it's a side-effect, and needs to go ASAP. Many people start on too high a dosage, so euphoria lasts maybe weeks, and when it stops they think it stopped working. This opens the doors to abuse, especially in teenagers.
Adaptation, during which other negative side effects start to lessen, lasts about 10 days.
Then there's peak productivity with little side effects for 6 months or so.
Then you start to question if it is still doing anything. There are days that you just don't feel like doing much. Take a couple days off, and it's obvious it was working all along. Without it you're still unproductive and scatter-brained as you've always been without. Also, you've started getting good at using this new powerful tool, but still don't know what to do with it. This is where I'm at at the moment.
--
When you're used to having good days, good days become normal days and it is very hard to remain objective in your assessment.
> Take a couple days off, and it's obvious it was working all along.
This is key to appreciating the value of the medication and also benefits as a way to fight tolerance. "Medicine holidays" it's often called. Every month take a weekend off, and every 6 months take a week off. Those off days will leave you terribly lethargic. But going back on will make you really appreciate it. Or not in which case take a longer break and maybe lower your dose.
This is key to appreciating the value of the medication and also benefits as a way to fight tolerance. "Medicine holidays" it's often called. Every month take a weekend off, and every 6 months take a week off. Those off days will leave you terribly lethargic. But going back on will make you really appreciate it. Or not in which case take a longer break and maybe lower your dose.
AFAIK there is no real proof these holidays work, and many therapists do not even prescribe them to their patients.
I wonder if the dopamine system might need more than a few days to reset. In my experience with addiction, it takes months.
I wonder if the dopamine system might need more than a few days to reset. In my experience with addiction, it takes months.
You don't need to get tolerance to zero as you might with addiction-level situations, just back to levels where it's no longer completely adapted.
I've been on adderall for 20 years and haven't ever had to increase my prescribed dose. I even usually reduce my dose in the summer after my week-long break. I bring it back up after subsequent holidays in the autumn.
The only times when I've thought it wasn't working, the med holidays brought it right back on track.
Could be placebo. Also n=1. There's very little lost in attempting (it assuming your dr is kosher with it).
I've been on adderall for 20 years and haven't ever had to increase my prescribed dose. I even usually reduce my dose in the summer after my week-long break. I bring it back up after subsequent holidays in the autumn.
The only times when I've thought it wasn't working, the med holidays brought it right back on track.
Could be placebo. Also n=1. There's very little lost in attempting (it assuming your dr is kosher with it).
Well, if it's worked for you I might as well give it a shot. Reaching now the 6 months mark, already took a a few days off here and there, I'll try a whole week off around Christmas.
What was good to know was that there doesn't seem to be any addiction potential for me at all. I hate being lazy and unmotivated without the meds, but there is no urge nor withdrawal whatsoever, which is fantastic, as someone that got addicted to half a dozen things in their life.
I was afraid I would start to enjoy the meds too much, but I am much more dependent on the cup of coffee I drink once a week (and every day during work I start craving a Coke) than amphetamine.
What was good to know was that there doesn't seem to be any addiction potential for me at all. I hate being lazy and unmotivated without the meds, but there is no urge nor withdrawal whatsoever, which is fantastic, as someone that got addicted to half a dozen things in their life.
I was afraid I would start to enjoy the meds too much, but I am much more dependent on the cup of coffee I drink once a week (and every day during work I start craving a Coke) than amphetamine.
I thought it took at least 3 days for the medication to clear your system.
The lessened effect is due to your body getting used to having increased levels of dopamine and norepinephrine, so stops producing as much.
The fact that the medication is out doesn't make your dopaminergic system more sensitive by itself. It might take a while.
The fact that the medication is out doesn't make your dopaminergic system more sensitive by itself. It might take a while.
I've been on the medications for almost a decade now, so when I take a weekend off, then I am basically useless by Monday when I start them again. I swear it takes days from them to start working again every time I take a break.
So, my dopaminergic system probably has holes burned through it.
So, my dopaminergic system probably has holes burned through it.
Yes, I have certainly noticed it takes a few days for the full effect to ramp up as well. And there seems to be residual effect for about 12 hours after the last dose, though in general the peak effect lasts about 4 hours for me (on lisdexamphetamine)
Thanks, this was very useful information.
I take methylphenidate slow release, and have for several years now. If I take an extended holiday, the first ~week back definitely feels like there is a stronger effect, but days when I take it vs don't are very noticeable in how difficult my day is. People in my personal life can call it out when I am unmedicated, my sleep is worse, chores don't get done, I waste more time at work, I go more crazy at social events and so on.
I really hope it keeps working in the longer term because it's been life changing so far.
I really hope it keeps working in the longer term because it's been life changing so far.
While meds can definitely help, one month in is way too early to know if the change is long-term positive. This is especially true with stimulant medications.
> one month in is way too early to know if the change is long-term positive. This is especially true with stimulant medications.
Agree. It's important to remind people that the effects of the first few weeks aren't like the effects for the next 10-50 years.
It's especially concerning when people say the meds give them "more energy to do things" because that's more of a side effect that goes away after a while. The focus-enhancing effect is separate from the energizing/euphoric side effect that people experience in the first few weeks.
Agree. It's important to remind people that the effects of the first few weeks aren't like the effects for the next 10-50 years.
It's especially concerning when people say the meds give them "more energy to do things" because that's more of a side effect that goes away after a while. The focus-enhancing effect is separate from the energizing/euphoric side effect that people experience in the first few weeks.
I’ve never experienced more energy to do things nor euphoria from my stimulant meds. They make me less anxious and allow me to muster executive function that I struggle with otherwise. Not because I’m more focused or productive or whatever else people ascribe to the drug, because I’m less overwhelmed by the world that’s loud and fast and bright and complicated and dangerous. My brain and the world around me are quieter and more reasonable.
Same here. If anything I actually feel a bit tired when they kick in throughout the day.
Same, I feel like I could fall asleep, but I know I couldn't if I tried.
Have you tried? I can take a nap no problem on them. I would even say that they greatly help me falling asleep!
I have tried, and I cannot. They help me fall asleep if I time the crash correctly, but other than I will have trouble falling asleep. If I stop taking them, then I have trouble falling asleep, so I am kind of in a catch-22 lol.
You might be surprised. My first prescribing doctor emphasized that an appropriate dosage wouldn’t disrupt sleep and might even improve ability to get to sleep. He wasn’t right about several other things, but on this he was exactly right. So much so that early on I took a morning nap about an hour after meds kicked in because I couldn’t stay awake. Now with a higher dose I don’t get so lethargic, but I certainly could sleep when the meds are effective, more than I ever could during daytime before.
I guess I am on the wrong dosage then, because when they are in full effect, there is no way I could fall asleep. Stimulants do wonders for my hyperactivity e.g. I turn from Ace Ventura to being able to sit in an office. However, I would never say they calm me down in a mental sense. In fact, they kind of tend to do the opposite sometimes.
> They make me less anxious
High-dose pyridoxine as an 'anti-stress' strategy
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10859691/
Anxiolytic-like effect of pyridoxine in mice by elevated plus maze and light and dark box: Evidence for the involvement of GABAergic and NO-sGC-cGMP pathway
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00913...
High-dose pyridoxine as an 'anti-stress' strategy
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10859691/
Anxiolytic-like effect of pyridoxine in mice by elevated plus maze and light and dark box: Evidence for the involvement of GABAergic and NO-sGC-cGMP pathway
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00913...
Same here.
Your description perfectly matches my experience.
Your description perfectly matches my experience.
“more energy to do things”
is directly correlated to the level of dopamine ADHD medication augments in our brains
I disagree with this. For me, the energy is because I have to use less energy doing basic day to day shit. Unmedicated, it takes far more effort and work, and leaves less energy for later tasks.
Yep this is common.
Imagine doing the dishes. Unmedicated, thats 2 or 3 tasks. Each with a high failure rate, and high cognitive cost.
1. Stop what you’re currently doing. 2. Decide you next task will be to wash the dishes. 3. Wash dishes.
The spoon theory [0] covers this concept well, and can be a useful tool.
> The spoon theory[a] is a metaphor describing the amount of physical and/or mental energy that a person has available for daily activities and tasks, and how it can become limited.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_theory
Imagine doing the dishes. Unmedicated, thats 2 or 3 tasks. Each with a high failure rate, and high cognitive cost.
1. Stop what you’re currently doing. 2. Decide you next task will be to wash the dishes. 3. Wash dishes.
The spoon theory [0] covers this concept well, and can be a useful tool.
> The spoon theory[a] is a metaphor describing the amount of physical and/or mental energy that a person has available for daily activities and tasks, and how it can become limited.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_theory
It’s amphetamine. The energy is from the amphetamine. The mechanism of action (norepinephrine and dopamine reputable inhibition) isn’t far from that of cocaine or methamphetamine. Let’s be real here. Amphetamine is known to skew one’s self assessment of their performance while on the drug.
> It’s amphetamine. The energy is from the amphetamine.
Energy still comes from food, and if you forget to eat on stimulants your body will eventually catch up with you.
Like coffee, stimulants let you better tap into that energy.
> The mechanism of action (norepinephrine and dopamine reputable inhibition) isn’t far from that of cocaine or methamphetamine.
Yep, they’re all stimulants. ADHD meds however, are manufactured in very controlled conditions, and taken in specific doses. Street drugs are more variable in quality, ratios, ingredients and strengths, and so not relevant to the treatment of ADHD.
Methamphetamine is a legitimate treatment for the most severe ADHD cases, it’s often a last resort. It’s sold as Desoxyn. It’s rarely used, but it _is used legally and successfully_.
> Let’s be real here. Amphetamine is known to skew one’s self assessment of their performance while on the drug.
If you don’t need it, stimulants are going to have a different effect.
People with ADHD are in my experience, going to be able to self-assess performance on their meds better than off them.
Don’t assume one experience is universal, especially when we’re talking about neurodiversity. Even among those with ADHD, experiences are not universal. We may rhyme, but we don’t always repeat.
Energy still comes from food, and if you forget to eat on stimulants your body will eventually catch up with you.
Like coffee, stimulants let you better tap into that energy.
> The mechanism of action (norepinephrine and dopamine reputable inhibition) isn’t far from that of cocaine or methamphetamine.
Yep, they’re all stimulants. ADHD meds however, are manufactured in very controlled conditions, and taken in specific doses. Street drugs are more variable in quality, ratios, ingredients and strengths, and so not relevant to the treatment of ADHD.
Methamphetamine is a legitimate treatment for the most severe ADHD cases, it’s often a last resort. It’s sold as Desoxyn. It’s rarely used, but it _is used legally and successfully_.
> Let’s be real here. Amphetamine is known to skew one’s self assessment of their performance while on the drug.
If you don’t need it, stimulants are going to have a different effect.
People with ADHD are in my experience, going to be able to self-assess performance on their meds better than off them.
Don’t assume one experience is universal, especially when we’re talking about neurodiversity. Even among those with ADHD, experiences are not universal. We may rhyme, but we don’t always repeat.
But it's not only perception. If at the end of the day you have done things as opposed to not done things, then the performance improvement is real.
The self-assessment is less to do with how efficient I was, and more based on the fact I get things done sooner, because I don't fuck around and get distracted every few minutes. Completing a task significantly sooner/earlier, because I managed to stay on task has a real impact on the energy and time I have to spend on other tasks.
If I only get 80% of the stuff I need to get done before bedtime, there's no chance for me to do other. If I get the stuff I need to get done well before bedtime, there's time left for other things. Skewed self-assessment isn't really a factor in that.
If I only get 80% of the stuff I need to get done before bedtime, there's no chance for me to do other. If I get the stuff I need to get done well before bedtime, there's time left for other things. Skewed self-assessment isn't really a factor in that.
not everyone on ADHD medication is on amphetamine. methylphenidate and clonidine are other treatment options.
This is the truth.
And by the way, the effect on dopamine is secondary. ADHD meds work because they affect glutamate leveles. You all do not have low Dopamine, you have low glutamate.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nn0301_275
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3966039/
https://www.brown.edu/news/2018-03-12/glutamate
And you all probably just need B6: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24321736/
And by the way, the effect on dopamine is secondary. ADHD meds work because they affect glutamate leveles. You all do not have low Dopamine, you have low glutamate.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nn0301_275
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3966039/
https://www.brown.edu/news/2018-03-12/glutamate
And you all probably just need B6: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24321736/
The active form of B6 is the enzyme cofactor used by AADC:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatic_L-amino_acid_decarbox...
AADC is an enzyme in the path that converts amino acids into dopamine and PEA/NMPEA (see "biosynthetic pathways" in above link), the latter of which is an endogenous structural isomer of amphetamine.
You're not really making a strong case that this isn't about dopamine or that amphetamine is the wrong thing for it.
Moreover, B6 will make more of these things up until the point that it's no longer the rate limiter in their production, if it ever was. (The rate limiting step for dopamine is ordinarily AAAH converting Tyrosine into L-DOPA). And if you hit a different rate limiter before you have enough dopamine or PEA/NMPEA, what then?
Important note: This is also a thing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megavitamin-B6_syndrome
> Megavitamin-B6 syndrome has been reported in doses as low as 24 mg/day.
Meanwhile people sell 500mg B6 tablets and it has a half life of like a month. Ask your doctor etc etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatic_L-amino_acid_decarbox...
AADC is an enzyme in the path that converts amino acids into dopamine and PEA/NMPEA (see "biosynthetic pathways" in above link), the latter of which is an endogenous structural isomer of amphetamine.
You're not really making a strong case that this isn't about dopamine or that amphetamine is the wrong thing for it.
Moreover, B6 will make more of these things up until the point that it's no longer the rate limiter in their production, if it ever was. (The rate limiting step for dopamine is ordinarily AAAH converting Tyrosine into L-DOPA). And if you hit a different rate limiter before you have enough dopamine or PEA/NMPEA, what then?
Important note: This is also a thing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megavitamin-B6_syndrome
> Megavitamin-B6 syndrome has been reported in doses as low as 24 mg/day.
Meanwhile people sell 500mg B6 tablets and it has a half life of like a month. Ask your doctor etc etc.
P5P is also the cofactor for GAD1 an GAD2:
https://www.uniprot.org/uniprotkb/Q99259/entry
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/340492849_The_Gluta...
I did not say it is not about dopamine, but it is, at a deeper level, about glutamate. Which is why coffee works so well for ADHD because the stimulant action from caffeine is produced by glutamate.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7700297/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4166758/
Regardless, here is so much evidence that B6 plays a large role in ADHD and what, you all just ignore it?
https://www.uniprot.org/uniprotkb/Q99259/entry
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/340492849_The_Gluta...
I did not say it is not about dopamine, but it is, at a deeper level, about glutamate. Which is why coffee works so well for ADHD because the stimulant action from caffeine is produced by glutamate.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7700297/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4166758/
Regardless, here is so much evidence that B6 plays a large role in ADHD and what, you all just ignore it?
> Which is why coffee works so well for ADHD because the stimulant action from caffeine is produced by glutamate.
Caffeine also antagonizes adenosine receptors which modulate dopamine. (Caffeine is complicated. Nicotine too.)
> Regardless, here is so much evidence that B6 plays a large role in ADHD and what, you all just ignore it?
The problem is it's the same kind of thing as saying that eating more reduces nutrient deficiencies. It might be more effective than placebo. If you're deficient in one thing and you get more of everything, you get more of that. It might even be the right solution if your underlying problem is actually that you're not eating enough.
But you want the solution that solves the problem as effectively and as narrowly as possible. Unless your underlying problem is actually a B6 deficiency, it's completely plausible that B6 could be more effective than placebo and less effective than Adderall. At which point nobody wants to hear you telling them to give up their Adderall for B6.
Caffeine also antagonizes adenosine receptors which modulate dopamine. (Caffeine is complicated. Nicotine too.)
> Regardless, here is so much evidence that B6 plays a large role in ADHD and what, you all just ignore it?
The problem is it's the same kind of thing as saying that eating more reduces nutrient deficiencies. It might be more effective than placebo. If you're deficient in one thing and you get more of everything, you get more of that. It might even be the right solution if your underlying problem is actually that you're not eating enough.
But you want the solution that solves the problem as effectively and as narrowly as possible. Unless your underlying problem is actually a B6 deficiency, it's completely plausible that B6 could be more effective than placebo and less effective than Adderall. At which point nobody wants to hear you telling them to give up their Adderall for B6.
zrm, FollowingTheDao, can I just say that I massively appreciate you for sharing your thoughts on this?
The fact that I can read up on this as a civilian compared to your expert level knowledge is something I am deeply grateful for. Truly!
The fact that I can read up on this as a civilian compared to your expert level knowledge is something I am deeply grateful for. Truly!
Leading experts on ADHD do not say that coffee works well for ADHD
> This is especially true with stimulant medications.
Hard to see how this is "especially true" with stimulants, given they're the rare case of psychiatric meds you can get on and off safely at any time, and the bulk of the effects appear in hours to days after starting the treatment (and disappear just as fast after cessation). Contrast with e.g. depression treatment, where it takes a month or more before it's clear if the drug even works on you, and which of the bad side effects have a chance of eventually going away.
"Long-term positive" is impossible to know in individual, non-statistical sense, whether it's about stimulant medication, SSRIs, moving to another city, marrying, or starting a family - any of those is going to have cascading impacts on your entire life, and even if you think they're positive after a month/year, who knows, maybe few weeks from now you'll think they were negative. That (otherwise stupid) "Farmer's Son" story has a point here.
Hard to see how this is "especially true" with stimulants, given they're the rare case of psychiatric meds you can get on and off safely at any time, and the bulk of the effects appear in hours to days after starting the treatment (and disappear just as fast after cessation). Contrast with e.g. depression treatment, where it takes a month or more before it's clear if the drug even works on you, and which of the bad side effects have a chance of eventually going away.
"Long-term positive" is impossible to know in individual, non-statistical sense, whether it's about stimulant medication, SSRIs, moving to another city, marrying, or starting a family - any of those is going to have cascading impacts on your entire life, and even if you think they're positive after a month/year, who knows, maybe few weeks from now you'll think they were negative. That (otherwise stupid) "Farmer's Son" story has a point here.
> psychiatric meds you can get on and off safely at any time
Maybe you can get off them safely, but not always easily. My alcohol/drug recovery group is filled with people who couldn't easily get off them, like my friend N., who rather than swallowing his medication (Ritalin?), he crushed it & snorted it like cocaine.
Maybe you can get off them safely, but not always easily. My alcohol/drug recovery group is filled with people who couldn't easily get off them, like my friend N., who rather than swallowing his medication (Ritalin?), he crushed it & snorted it like cocaine.
> rather than swallowing his medication (Ritalin?), he crushed it & snorted it like cocaine.
I'm having a hard time pinning this on the meds honestly...
I'm having a hard time pinning this on the meds honestly...
Yeah, that's usually something else. You don't go from taking a therapeutic dose of Ritalin to railing lines of it. The effect profile is different.
Having done exactly that (crushed and snorted Ritalin) in the past. I can't recommend it - its not a very good high.
Having done exactly that (crushed and snorted Ritalin) in the past. I can't recommend it - its not a very good high.
You might not be aware of this, there are 7 variations of ADHD and half of them are the pysch kind in that you have to up your L-DOPA dose to counter having to take 5-htp. Its the 5-htp that is part of the reason why medical treatments include the pysch drugs and in fact you can get off them.
They do not tell you that part for obvious reasons, but if you find the right doctor to explain the biochemistry of how they work it then becomes obvious.
Rhodiola is MAO inhibitors and so is Ginkgo, while 5-htp is the serotonin intermediate and corresponds to SSIs. Not to say that you need not to be careful, that still is required but with other cofactors consumed you can micro-dose.
Note, due to my understandings of what cofactors I need I do in fact micro dose L-DOPA as some recommend 500mg but I only consume 20mg daily.
Cofactors such as aromatic amino acids to increase tryptophan absorbtion across blood brain barrier including Macca extracts and fenugreek and Phenylanaline .
They do not tell you that part for obvious reasons, but if you find the right doctor to explain the biochemistry of how they work it then becomes obvious.
Rhodiola is MAO inhibitors and so is Ginkgo, while 5-htp is the serotonin intermediate and corresponds to SSIs. Not to say that you need not to be careful, that still is required but with other cofactors consumed you can micro-dose.
Note, due to my understandings of what cofactors I need I do in fact micro dose L-DOPA as some recommend 500mg but I only consume 20mg daily.
Cofactors such as aromatic amino acids to increase tryptophan absorbtion across blood brain barrier including Macca extracts and fenugreek and Phenylanaline .
> Maybe you can get off them safely, but not always easily.
You're implying addiction, but in the more common case, people with ADHD can be apprehensive about getting off the meds for the same reason people with chronic pain can't easily get off painkillers, or people in general can't easily get off oxygen.
> like my friend N., who rather than swallowing his medication (Ritalin?), he crushed it & snorted it like cocaine
That's just drug use, not ADHD treatment. I wonder what your friend's dose was? Snorting instead of swallowing is massively increasing the absorption rate, but even then, I don't think you can get high like this, if you just do your regular regimen through the nose. But doing a week or month's worth of pills this way at once, I guess sure?
I don't have the data handy, but IIRC the difference in dose size between therapeutic effect and drug abuse that leads to addiction is ~100x.
You're implying addiction, but in the more common case, people with ADHD can be apprehensive about getting off the meds for the same reason people with chronic pain can't easily get off painkillers, or people in general can't easily get off oxygen.
> like my friend N., who rather than swallowing his medication (Ritalin?), he crushed it & snorted it like cocaine
That's just drug use, not ADHD treatment. I wonder what your friend's dose was? Snorting instead of swallowing is massively increasing the absorption rate, but even then, I don't think you can get high like this, if you just do your regular regimen through the nose. But doing a week or month's worth of pills this way at once, I guess sure?
I don't have the data handy, but IIRC the difference in dose size between therapeutic effect and drug abuse that leads to addiction is ~100x.
Is it any surprise people get apprehensive about stopping medication? We don’t ask people to not use prescription glasses or leave their wheelchair at home and expect them to be happy about it, do we?
You keep saying this throughout the thread. These are fundamentally different, as someone with both conditions and both prescriptions.
There is no side-effect to glasses, you can put them on or off completely at-will any moment, and they make a very exact correction to one specific parameter (vision focusing ability).
ADHD meds are imprecise and affect many systems in different ways - some positive and some negative. You can only have them on/off daily. It might affect you differently depending on other factors. And treatment is not without risk.
It’s hard to understand how stopping will affect you due to the imprecision. It’s not as black-and-white as glasses.
There is no side-effect to glasses, you can put them on or off completely at-will any moment, and they make a very exact correction to one specific parameter (vision focusing ability).
ADHD meds are imprecise and affect many systems in different ways - some positive and some negative. You can only have them on/off daily. It might affect you differently depending on other factors. And treatment is not without risk.
It’s hard to understand how stopping will affect you due to the imprecision. It’s not as black-and-white as glasses.
Absolutely. And that’s something that any good doctor will discuss and monitor. And generally medication is combined with other treatments like CBT to learn to cope better, because medication doesn’t magically fix people.
But stimulant meds still don’t deserve any more stigma than glasses. For those who take it as part of treatment of a lifelong disability.
Edited to add: Btw, try playing squash or go swimming with kids. Suddenly your glasses aren’t the perfect solution that they may otherwise seem to be and they become yet another tool, like having the kids wearing bright swimming clothes so you can spot them in a crowd.
But you’re right, we’d love for ADHD meds to be as effective and universal as glasses, but they’re not. Probably because ADHD isn’t a single condition, but a spectrum of conditions with some overlap. So expecting a single treatment to take away all symptoms is a fantasy.
But stimulant meds still don’t deserve any more stigma than glasses. For those who take it as part of treatment of a lifelong disability.
Edited to add: Btw, try playing squash or go swimming with kids. Suddenly your glasses aren’t the perfect solution that they may otherwise seem to be and they become yet another tool, like having the kids wearing bright swimming clothes so you can spot them in a crowd.
But you’re right, we’d love for ADHD meds to be as effective and universal as glasses, but they’re not. Probably because ADHD isn’t a single condition, but a spectrum of conditions with some overlap. So expecting a single treatment to take away all symptoms is a fantasy.
Having tried it a few times, you can get pretty high snorting methylphenidate.
You don't even need that much - a 10mg pill crushed and snorted (it will make a few lines) will fuck your shit up.
Its not a particularly fun high though, it comes with compulsive redosing, discomfort (skin crawling), and basically feels like the latter half of a cocaine bender - after the fun has ended but you are now just fiending.
Other fun ways to abuse methylphenidate at low doses include exploiting its synergy with alcohol and prozac to get, again, a rather cocaine like high, but much more enjoyable than just railing lines of the stuff, and lasts a few hours.
As for treatment of ADHD symptoms, personally I found dexamphetamine worked a lot better than methylphenidate for me, but its much harder to get prescribed.
You don't even need that much - a 10mg pill crushed and snorted (it will make a few lines) will fuck your shit up.
Its not a particularly fun high though, it comes with compulsive redosing, discomfort (skin crawling), and basically feels like the latter half of a cocaine bender - after the fun has ended but you are now just fiending.
Other fun ways to abuse methylphenidate at low doses include exploiting its synergy with alcohol and prozac to get, again, a rather cocaine like high, but much more enjoyable than just railing lines of the stuff, and lasts a few hours.
As for treatment of ADHD symptoms, personally I found dexamphetamine worked a lot better than methylphenidate for me, but its much harder to get prescribed.
Depends on the medication. I've definitely gotten high from my meds while trying to figure out the right dose, and snorting it ups the absorption rate a Lot. Especially w/amphetamines.
Anyways, I'm skeptical of that 100x number. Comparing 5mg of adderall to 50mg, I could easily imagine getting addicted to the euphoria from the latter and spiraling. I can't even imagine 500mg of adderall, that's just an absurd dose.
I could maaaybe imagine that the 50mg dose resulting in a sorta psychological addiction and 500mg being more physiological, but it doesn't really line up with the model I've built from my own experience. Of course, everyone's different
Anyways, I'm skeptical of that 100x number. Comparing 5mg of adderall to 50mg, I could easily imagine getting addicted to the euphoria from the latter and spiraling. I can't even imagine 500mg of adderall, that's just an absurd dose.
I could maaaybe imagine that the 50mg dose resulting in a sorta psychological addiction and 500mg being more physiological, but it doesn't really line up with the model I've built from my own experience. Of course, everyone's different
I say it's especially true with stimulants not because of some perceived safety, but because at the start of taking stimulants you will feel great. This generally wears off within a few weeks and never comes back. The test of whether stimulant medications help you isn't if they help you at the start, it's how you feel about them six months in.
edit: feeling great only applies to some stimulant medications and seems to vary from person to person. Personally, I hated the pharmaceutical stimulant experience but they still helped me. I would be taking meds right now if I could afford it.
edit: feeling great only applies to some stimulant medications and seems to vary from person to person. Personally, I hated the pharmaceutical stimulant experience but they still helped me. I would be taking meds right now if I could afford it.
I knew day one. Three years have continuously confirmed what I knew day one. I wish I hadn’t been so afraid of meds that would help me.
I’m exactly the same. I knew 40m in, right when it started to take effect. It was night and day. Like I’d just walked from a raging thunderstorm into a quiet sunny meadow, but I’d thought that I was in a quiet meadow my whole life. It was profound.
There was a decade between me first seriously suspecting it, and that.
Information about it is much easier to come by now, and more people talk openly about it. Without that, I probably would have struggled for much longer.
There was a decade between me first seriously suspecting it, and that.
Information about it is much easier to come by now, and more people talk openly about it. Without that, I probably would have struggled for much longer.
'Like I’d just walked from a raging thunderstorm into a quiet sunny meadow, but I’d thought that I was in a quiet meadow my whole life. It was profound.'
That is profound. Also says a lot about us as humans. Glad it's not raging anymore
That is profound. Also says a lot about us as humans. Glad it's not raging anymore
It’s not on you. An enormous amount of stigma surrounds the use of stimulant medication, even if it’s one of the oldest and most studied psychiatric meds there is. And the stigma is continuously reinforced by all the people who don’t need it abusing the meds.
Sure, there’s also some risk for patients using them properly, but for them it does not compare to the sheer benefits provided by the meds.
Sure, there’s also some risk for patients using them properly, but for them it does not compare to the sheer benefits provided by the meds.
You are not deficient in stimulants. So using them is not the answer.
Instead, look to nutrition.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24321736/
Instead, look to nutrition.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24321736/
That is an interesting paper, as is the co-morbidity of ADHD with epilepsy that they cite. It's also hopeful for some people suffering from ADHD because it is suggestive of the possibility of a more complete treatment for some.
However there's a general understanding of ADHD (and related disorders such as ASD) as a spectrum of conditions with multiple contributing factors. Depending on the person ADHD will manifest with more or less hyperactivity, distractability, working memory issues, and lacking emotional regulation (among other things). Different causes combine to give a somewhat amorphous disorder with a range of common symptoms.
So adding a new treatment with fewer downsides (because stimulants can have a few) is great, especially as it might treat aspects of the disorder that aren't treated by stimulants. But this doesn't mean stimulants won't still be relevant in the future.
There's there's also plenty of research showing specific dopamine receptor dysregulations as contributing to ADHD. See for example https://www.researchgate.net/publication/364120700_Dopamine_...
So unless the research also shows that this is caused by pyridoxine metabolism problems, these hypotheses can both hold at the same time.
Picking some paper that talks about different causes doesn't mean other causes aren't still relevant. It will probably be decades before we can definitively rule out contributing factors.
PS It's generalizations like yours that are very stigmatizing towards stimulant use. We already know many people benefit from them enormously and significant numbers are not getting or taking them due to stigma.
However there's a general understanding of ADHD (and related disorders such as ASD) as a spectrum of conditions with multiple contributing factors. Depending on the person ADHD will manifest with more or less hyperactivity, distractability, working memory issues, and lacking emotional regulation (among other things). Different causes combine to give a somewhat amorphous disorder with a range of common symptoms.
So adding a new treatment with fewer downsides (because stimulants can have a few) is great, especially as it might treat aspects of the disorder that aren't treated by stimulants. But this doesn't mean stimulants won't still be relevant in the future.
There's there's also plenty of research showing specific dopamine receptor dysregulations as contributing to ADHD. See for example https://www.researchgate.net/publication/364120700_Dopamine_...
So unless the research also shows that this is caused by pyridoxine metabolism problems, these hypotheses can both hold at the same time.
Picking some paper that talks about different causes doesn't mean other causes aren't still relevant. It will probably be decades before we can definitively rule out contributing factors.
PS It's generalizations like yours that are very stigmatizing towards stimulant use. We already know many people benefit from them enormously and significant numbers are not getting or taking them due to stigma.
You are making a complicated when it’s effing simple.
Just try taking high dose P5P.
And probably zinc:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-94124-5
If you knew the metabolic pathways thus would be as clear as day. We need enzymes to make neurotransmitter and those enzymes need cofactors to work.
These are the cofactors.
Just try taking high dose P5P.
And probably zinc:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-94124-5
If you knew the metabolic pathways thus would be as clear as day. We need enzymes to make neurotransmitter and those enzymes need cofactors to work.
These are the cofactors.
If only things were generally so simple. While I'm all for more possible causes that are more easily treated, I’d hardly call this convincing evidence that all we need to treat is zinc deficiencies. But time will tell, as I hope these kinds of research continue.
But did you try it????
Yes, didn't work, stop acting like an asshole. It is very common to check for deficiencies, if people with ADHD had it then likely they wouldn't be prescribed meds before the deficiency is fixed in the first place, you questioning others like this is just making their life worse.
One, I do not beleive you.
Two, If you did, how much did you take? And what type? Pyridoxine or Pyridoxal-Phosphate? For how long? Were you tested for a B6 defieicny, high homocysteine?
Three, it is in NO WAY common for deficiencies to be tested for mood disorders and even less common for a doctor nevermind a psychiatrist to do anything about it.
And calling me an asshole when I am advocating for better health is making everyone's life worse. I do not mind if people choose to take stimulants, but they are not being advised that there are other options.
Two, If you did, how much did you take? And what type? Pyridoxine or Pyridoxal-Phosphate? For how long? Were you tested for a B6 defieicny, high homocysteine?
Three, it is in NO WAY common for deficiencies to be tested for mood disorders and even less common for a doctor nevermind a psychiatrist to do anything about it.
And calling me an asshole when I am advocating for better health is making everyone's life worse. I do not mind if people choose to take stimulants, but they are not being advised that there are other options.
Treatment with stimulants doesn’t treat deficiencies of stimulants. This is immediately obvious with patients who actually benefit from the meds, because they’re generally not stimulated by them. Treatment with many chemicals doesn’t treat deficiencies of those chemicals. In the case of stimulants for ADHD, they help regulate dopamine and norepinephrine intake. In practical terms, results of successful treatment include improved management of executive function, reduced social and sensory stress, and healthier sleep patterns. I can’t say what anyone else’s answer is, but stimulants saved my life because the impact of the things they helped me address were life threatening. Using stimulants as prescribed by my doctor was definitely an answer for me, and I am grateful for the life I kept intact because of that.
Medications saved my life as well. That is not the point. The point is do you keep taking them and not look for the nutritional answer to your problem.
If a B6 deficiency cured your ADHD would you still want to take stimulants?
If a B6 deficiency cured your ADHD would you still want to take stimulants?
> If a B6 deficiency cured your ADHD would you still want to take stimulants?
Assuming you mean “if treating a B6 deficiency”, and assuming I had strong expectations that I could expect a cure, I’d consider giving it a try. I’d be cautious about any transition, as it could mean either significant side effects while still taking stimulants, or significant regression without them if the B6 treatment doesn’t work as hoped.
But I don’t even have a strong expectation that I could expect equivalent or better management. The study you linked was conducted with children, and the conclusions based on observations of children’s behavior. Maybe that’s a good indicator that it’s helpful, but I have no clue. I wasn’t diagnosed as a child, my ADHD was noticeable to one adult in my adulthood enough to mention it, and my experienced symptoms are much closer to autism (again as experienced by adults, not as behavior observed in children, although those diverge much less for me). But the things mentioned improving in the study are very much not what I’ve struggled with having ADHD as an adult, nor things for which I sought diagnosis or treatment.
The way diagnosis and treatment saved my life was helping me manage crippling anxiety and helping me make chronic depression manageable. It’s possible that exploring a nutritional deficiency none of my doctors have found with supplements no one has studied for adult ADHD… it’s possible that would benefit me. It’s a very high risk proposition given I have meds which work for me and which present no side effects so negative I’d reconsider.
Moreover I haven’t had a single medical professional raise this possibility and with good reason. My treatment is working. Even if an alternative treatment might be promising… why would any responsible doctor propose disrupting a persistently successful treatment plan?
I don’t know why you’re so motivated to disabuse me of my effective medication, but you’ll have to do better than showing a study which made children more tolerable. I credit my life to the meds that I take now, and there’s very very little I could fault them for. Asking me to reconsider that is asking an AWFUL lot.
Assuming you mean “if treating a B6 deficiency”, and assuming I had strong expectations that I could expect a cure, I’d consider giving it a try. I’d be cautious about any transition, as it could mean either significant side effects while still taking stimulants, or significant regression without them if the B6 treatment doesn’t work as hoped.
But I don’t even have a strong expectation that I could expect equivalent or better management. The study you linked was conducted with children, and the conclusions based on observations of children’s behavior. Maybe that’s a good indicator that it’s helpful, but I have no clue. I wasn’t diagnosed as a child, my ADHD was noticeable to one adult in my adulthood enough to mention it, and my experienced symptoms are much closer to autism (again as experienced by adults, not as behavior observed in children, although those diverge much less for me). But the things mentioned improving in the study are very much not what I’ve struggled with having ADHD as an adult, nor things for which I sought diagnosis or treatment.
The way diagnosis and treatment saved my life was helping me manage crippling anxiety and helping me make chronic depression manageable. It’s possible that exploring a nutritional deficiency none of my doctors have found with supplements no one has studied for adult ADHD… it’s possible that would benefit me. It’s a very high risk proposition given I have meds which work for me and which present no side effects so negative I’d reconsider.
Moreover I haven’t had a single medical professional raise this possibility and with good reason. My treatment is working. Even if an alternative treatment might be promising… why would any responsible doctor propose disrupting a persistently successful treatment plan?
I don’t know why you’re so motivated to disabuse me of my effective medication, but you’ll have to do better than showing a study which made children more tolerable. I credit my life to the meds that I take now, and there’s very very little I could fault them for. Asking me to reconsider that is asking an AWFUL lot.
You make me assumption that I’m trying to disabuse you of taking your medication. I’m not. I don’t care, take it if you want. But by not being open to other methods of treatment, you aredisabusing people of that choice.
You go on and on about how you don’t think it would work, but have you ever had your B6 level tested never mind your red blood cell B6 levels?
I get it, you don’t care, you found a treatment that works, even though that treatment is not curing the underlying disorder. It’s just a treatment. I get it it works, until it doesn’t. I’ve been working with people with new disorders for 25 years and I’ve seen it over and over again.
So I’m not asking you to stop taking anything I’m asking you to keep an open mind which you seem to not be able to do. That’s OK.
You go on and on about how you don’t think it would work, but have you ever had your B6 level tested never mind your red blood cell B6 levels?
I get it, you don’t care, you found a treatment that works, even though that treatment is not curing the underlying disorder. It’s just a treatment. I get it it works, until it doesn’t. I’ve been working with people with new disorders for 25 years and I’ve seen it over and over again.
So I’m not asking you to stop taking anything I’m asking you to keep an open mind which you seem to not be able to do. That’s OK.
Responding to both your comments in one.
> I mean you did not even bother to search for another paper.
I most certainly did. The search results I got were primarily ads, and few clinical studies I found were, like the one you linked, far less bold in the results they claimed than your claim of a “cure”.
> You make me assumption that I’m trying to disabuse you of taking your medication. I’m not. I don’t care, take it if you want. But by not being open to other methods of treatment, you aredisabusing people of that choice.
Excuse me, how?
> You go on and on about how you don’t think it would work
The studies themselves don’t support your claim of a cure.
> but have you ever had your B6 level tested never mind your red blood cell B6 levels?
No, I haven’t been to a doctor since some person on the internet mentioned this a few days ago. I did have a scheduled psychiatrist appointment in that time, but had to reschedule because il out of state for a family medical emergency.
> I get it, you don’t care
I don’t know where you got that impression. I took the time to reply thoughtfully and, despite your impressions otherwise, to look for other studies more pertinent to my own experience. In my thoughtful response I expressed caution and the reasons for that caution, which you completely ignored.
> you found a treatment that works, even though that treatment is not curing the underlying disorder
That’s right. And it’s important. It’s the reason I’m still alive. I’m cautious about upsetting treatment that works because I would very much like to remain alive.
> I’ve been working with people with new disorders for 25 years and I’ve seen it over and over again.
I don’t know if you mean the disorder is new in the world (it’s not) or in me (it’s also not).
> So I’m not asking you to stop taking anything I’m asking you to keep an open mind which you seem to not be able to do.
I don’t know where you got that impression. An open mind isn’t characterized by immediately accepting life changing “solutions” proposed by random people on the internet, regardless of whether they cite medical studies. I expressed an open mind, I said I’d consider giving it a try.
> That’s OK.
In your own words, I don’t believe you. You have talked past me and several others in this thread, and you don’t seem to want to accept anything other than a revelation that what I need is vitamins rather than the treatment that my doctor prescribes. You have even suggested that I’m preventing other people from treatment (or a “cure”) you think more appropriate simply because I haven’t dropped everything to try your preferred treatment. If this is how you “work with” other people who are hoping to treat their ADHD effectively, god help them. And it has nothing to do with the particular treatment, I felt the same way about my first psychiatrist who was just as zealous about stimulant treatment.
> I mean you did not even bother to search for another paper.
I most certainly did. The search results I got were primarily ads, and few clinical studies I found were, like the one you linked, far less bold in the results they claimed than your claim of a “cure”.
> You make me assumption that I’m trying to disabuse you of taking your medication. I’m not. I don’t care, take it if you want. But by not being open to other methods of treatment, you aredisabusing people of that choice.
Excuse me, how?
> You go on and on about how you don’t think it would work
The studies themselves don’t support your claim of a cure.
> but have you ever had your B6 level tested never mind your red blood cell B6 levels?
No, I haven’t been to a doctor since some person on the internet mentioned this a few days ago. I did have a scheduled psychiatrist appointment in that time, but had to reschedule because il out of state for a family medical emergency.
> I get it, you don’t care
I don’t know where you got that impression. I took the time to reply thoughtfully and, despite your impressions otherwise, to look for other studies more pertinent to my own experience. In my thoughtful response I expressed caution and the reasons for that caution, which you completely ignored.
> you found a treatment that works, even though that treatment is not curing the underlying disorder
That’s right. And it’s important. It’s the reason I’m still alive. I’m cautious about upsetting treatment that works because I would very much like to remain alive.
> I’ve been working with people with new disorders for 25 years and I’ve seen it over and over again.
I don’t know if you mean the disorder is new in the world (it’s not) or in me (it’s also not).
> So I’m not asking you to stop taking anything I’m asking you to keep an open mind which you seem to not be able to do.
I don’t know where you got that impression. An open mind isn’t characterized by immediately accepting life changing “solutions” proposed by random people on the internet, regardless of whether they cite medical studies. I expressed an open mind, I said I’d consider giving it a try.
> That’s OK.
In your own words, I don’t believe you. You have talked past me and several others in this thread, and you don’t seem to want to accept anything other than a revelation that what I need is vitamins rather than the treatment that my doctor prescribes. You have even suggested that I’m preventing other people from treatment (or a “cure”) you think more appropriate simply because I haven’t dropped everything to try your preferred treatment. If this is how you “work with” other people who are hoping to treat their ADHD effectively, god help them. And it has nothing to do with the particular treatment, I felt the same way about my first psychiatrist who was just as zealous about stimulant treatment.
> The search results I got were primarily ads..
Maybe use PubMed and not google?
> you don’t seem to want to accept anything other than a revelation that what I need is vitamins rather than the treatment that my doctor prescribes.
I NEVER SAID THAT ONCE. Take stimulants if you want, but just because that is your choice do you need to be so outraged by the idea that B6 might work just as well?
>> But by not being open to other methods of treatment, you are disabusing people of that choice.
> Excuse me, how?
YOU: Moreover I haven’t had a single medical professional raise this possibility and with good reason.
You: But I don’t even have a strong expectation that I could expect equivalent or better management.
You: I don’t believe you.
This negative stance only feeds on this idea that medications are the only choice, the only answer, and that nutrition never works becasue "there are no studies" or "My doctor did not recommend it".
You are just shooting down the idea that this might be the root of the issue. And yet you have never even had you B6 levels tested. That is just willful ignorance. Have you worked in Nutritional Genomics? Do you even know why treating a B6 deficiency might be important not just for your behavior but your over all health? If you have a B6 deficiency and take stimulants to cover up the symptoms, what about all the other enzymes that need B6 to function?
Over and over they find B6 deficiency in ADHD. There will be no studies showing the efficacy of B6 because there is no funding for products that do not make a profit. You are on stimulants because they work and they are profitable.
Next thing they will get you to take will be Metadoxine. Ha!
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25295645/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23290324/
Hmmmm...I wonder why they were trying out Metadoxine for ADHD, and wonder why it failed...oh....Metadoxine, also known as pyridoxine-pyrrolidone carboxylate. So they made a funked up version of B6? Why would all these smart science people want to make a funked up version of B6 if B6 was not linked to ADHD?
Do you think maybe they know something they do not want you to know? And maybe that is because ADHD meds brings in about $20 Billion for these companies?
Have you thought you do not want to hear anything but stimulants are the only answer for you? And that I am not talking past you but that there is no one there who wants to listen?
Maybe use PubMed and not google?
> you don’t seem to want to accept anything other than a revelation that what I need is vitamins rather than the treatment that my doctor prescribes.
I NEVER SAID THAT ONCE. Take stimulants if you want, but just because that is your choice do you need to be so outraged by the idea that B6 might work just as well?
>> But by not being open to other methods of treatment, you are disabusing people of that choice.
> Excuse me, how?
YOU: Moreover I haven’t had a single medical professional raise this possibility and with good reason.
You: But I don’t even have a strong expectation that I could expect equivalent or better management.
You: I don’t believe you.
This negative stance only feeds on this idea that medications are the only choice, the only answer, and that nutrition never works becasue "there are no studies" or "My doctor did not recommend it".
You are just shooting down the idea that this might be the root of the issue. And yet you have never even had you B6 levels tested. That is just willful ignorance. Have you worked in Nutritional Genomics? Do you even know why treating a B6 deficiency might be important not just for your behavior but your over all health? If you have a B6 deficiency and take stimulants to cover up the symptoms, what about all the other enzymes that need B6 to function?
Over and over they find B6 deficiency in ADHD. There will be no studies showing the efficacy of B6 because there is no funding for products that do not make a profit. You are on stimulants because they work and they are profitable.
Next thing they will get you to take will be Metadoxine. Ha!
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25295645/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23290324/
Hmmmm...I wonder why they were trying out Metadoxine for ADHD, and wonder why it failed...oh....Metadoxine, also known as pyridoxine-pyrrolidone carboxylate. So they made a funked up version of B6? Why would all these smart science people want to make a funked up version of B6 if B6 was not linked to ADHD?
Do you think maybe they know something they do not want you to know? And maybe that is because ADHD meds brings in about $20 Billion for these companies?
Have you thought you do not want to hear anything but stimulants are the only answer for you? And that I am not talking past you but that there is no one there who wants to listen?
I mean you did not even bother to search for another paper. And there are more than these two.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5153567/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5153567/
[deleted]
I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was about 27-28. I've been on medication since then, and the impact has been amazing. It makes me wish my condition was diagnosed much earlier. So much unnecessary difficulty (Especially in school) that could potentially have been avoided.
You're proposing a false dichotomy. It's quite possible that it works for some people and it doesn't work for others and only being in the persons' shoes will let you truly evaluate the benefits vs. the tradeoffs.
For example, stim meds increase my focus but also seem to reduce my creativity and injure my sleep (to the point that I have occasional short-term memory loss). So every day I individually evaluate whether it will be worth it or not, and I make sure to take at least a couple days off a week to catch up on REM sleep.
For example, stim meds increase my focus but also seem to reduce my creativity and injure my sleep (to the point that I have occasional short-term memory loss). So every day I individually evaluate whether it will be worth it or not, and I make sure to take at least a couple days off a week to catch up on REM sleep.
This is me, too. I grew up in a "Kids just don't want to learn any more, they all just take meds to fix behavior problems" household.
I quit my meds when I was about 16/17 failed out of my last year of highschool, went on to become a construction foreman for huge projects managing crews of 30-40.
During a layoff in 2009 because there was no construction, I installed linux on a laptop because I borked my OS and didn't have a key. Ended up getting a job as an ISP call center tech at a small ISP/hosting company a few months later, taught myself systems and networking administration and was running the whole place a few years later including the BGP peering, system automation, monitoring, and building.
I went to work for a FANNG for a decade, Built some cool shit, have a few patents.
When the pandemic hit, I really stopped for the first time and looked at what being able to perform at a high level was costing me and my family.
1. I was drinking too much, a small buzz would slow my mind down and let me focus on a single thing, It kinda works but at what cost?
2. I always knew what I needed to do, I understood how to build what I needed to build but there would be times, whole weeks, when I'd be unable to bring myself to read the docs I needed too or do what ever I needed to do, that would make me uneasy and lead to a lot of self-loathing. Not a great person for my family to be around during those times.
3. Always feeling like I needed to work but never working, so everything was an inconvenience because I should be getting something done at work but I wasn't, then things like dinner with my family felt like it might be taking away from some work I wasn't going to do anyways.
4. The lightning would strike, I'd find a deadline or whatever and I'd work, almost unbroken for days straight, online before my kids got up, get them to school, work, pick them up and make dinner/put to bed, work through the night or late into the night.
5. I'd build the thing I needed to and then I'd crash and be tired, and then I'd have a day or two to be the father and partner and person I wanted to be, but there's always the nagging feeling that next time, I'll be too late or won't pull it off . . ..
I spent 2 years in therapy (starting before the pandemic) addressing the symptoms and working on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy techniques to address a chemical imbalance in my brain. Working on being kind to myself, working on stress management, working on time management.
Part way into the pandemic, I ended up quitting, realizing I just needed a break and I was working so much harder than any of my peers for a similar or worse output. Them mental overhead of keeping up was excessive.
Eventually, I went back and got properly medicated. It was like a switch flipped. It took me a month or so, to get into it, but I found myself feeling like I could stop and be available for my kids whenever, because I started to realize, I could just turn my focus on and off whenever I wanted and I didn't have to wait for lightning to strike.
The thing that's most beneficial is a bit unseen, I'm not carrying a burden of self-loathing, fear, anxiety on my back, all stressors that were a result of my inability to entirely control my focus and do the thing that I wanted to do when I wanted to. That invisible weight that I carried everywhere vanished.
I've seen a marked improvement in my life over the last year or so. I'm a better father, partner, employee. I like myself for the first time in decades.
This is long winded, but I wanted to put this out there because there are a lot of us in tech. having ADHD is actually a great way to get into tech, we find something we don't understand or a blocker and dig deep. I was just trying to find a way around a license key and ended up learning internet routing . . .. I have a very broad skill set because I'll dig deep on anything that walks by. I see many like myself. But if you find yourself in a cycle like this, go get help. Life doesn't have to be that hard.
I quit my meds when I was about 16/17 failed out of my last year of highschool, went on to become a construction foreman for huge projects managing crews of 30-40.
During a layoff in 2009 because there was no construction, I installed linux on a laptop because I borked my OS and didn't have a key. Ended up getting a job as an ISP call center tech at a small ISP/hosting company a few months later, taught myself systems and networking administration and was running the whole place a few years later including the BGP peering, system automation, monitoring, and building.
I went to work for a FANNG for a decade, Built some cool shit, have a few patents.
When the pandemic hit, I really stopped for the first time and looked at what being able to perform at a high level was costing me and my family.
1. I was drinking too much, a small buzz would slow my mind down and let me focus on a single thing, It kinda works but at what cost?
2. I always knew what I needed to do, I understood how to build what I needed to build but there would be times, whole weeks, when I'd be unable to bring myself to read the docs I needed too or do what ever I needed to do, that would make me uneasy and lead to a lot of self-loathing. Not a great person for my family to be around during those times.
3. Always feeling like I needed to work but never working, so everything was an inconvenience because I should be getting something done at work but I wasn't, then things like dinner with my family felt like it might be taking away from some work I wasn't going to do anyways.
4. The lightning would strike, I'd find a deadline or whatever and I'd work, almost unbroken for days straight, online before my kids got up, get them to school, work, pick them up and make dinner/put to bed, work through the night or late into the night.
5. I'd build the thing I needed to and then I'd crash and be tired, and then I'd have a day or two to be the father and partner and person I wanted to be, but there's always the nagging feeling that next time, I'll be too late or won't pull it off . . ..
I spent 2 years in therapy (starting before the pandemic) addressing the symptoms and working on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy techniques to address a chemical imbalance in my brain. Working on being kind to myself, working on stress management, working on time management.
Part way into the pandemic, I ended up quitting, realizing I just needed a break and I was working so much harder than any of my peers for a similar or worse output. Them mental overhead of keeping up was excessive.
Eventually, I went back and got properly medicated. It was like a switch flipped. It took me a month or so, to get into it, but I found myself feeling like I could stop and be available for my kids whenever, because I started to realize, I could just turn my focus on and off whenever I wanted and I didn't have to wait for lightning to strike.
The thing that's most beneficial is a bit unseen, I'm not carrying a burden of self-loathing, fear, anxiety on my back, all stressors that were a result of my inability to entirely control my focus and do the thing that I wanted to do when I wanted to. That invisible weight that I carried everywhere vanished.
I've seen a marked improvement in my life over the last year or so. I'm a better father, partner, employee. I like myself for the first time in decades.
This is long winded, but I wanted to put this out there because there are a lot of us in tech. having ADHD is actually a great way to get into tech, we find something we don't understand or a blocker and dig deep. I was just trying to find a way around a license key and ended up learning internet routing . . .. I have a very broad skill set because I'll dig deep on anything that walks by. I see many like myself. But if you find yourself in a cycle like this, go get help. Life doesn't have to be that hard.
Fist bump!
So I'm like this just not as 'successful' AND I haven't gone medicated as I'm on the cusp. Although, I've been putting something off for a while....;)
'The thing that's most beneficial is a bit unseen, I'm not carrying a burden of self-loathing, fear, anxiety on my back, all stressors that were a result of my inability to entirely control my focus and do the thing that I wanted to do when I wanted to. That invisible weight that I carried everywhere vanished.'
I am currently in the mindset that I don't get to choose what I do. I either do it, or I don't and that has forced me down a route to where I find myself. Which has really worked out. But only because I caught myself and that those knife edge moments went the right way.
So I'm like this just not as 'successful' AND I haven't gone medicated as I'm on the cusp. Although, I've been putting something off for a while....;)
'The thing that's most beneficial is a bit unseen, I'm not carrying a burden of self-loathing, fear, anxiety on my back, all stressors that were a result of my inability to entirely control my focus and do the thing that I wanted to do when I wanted to. That invisible weight that I carried everywhere vanished.'
I am currently in the mindset that I don't get to choose what I do. I either do it, or I don't and that has forced me down a route to where I find myself. Which has really worked out. But only because I caught myself and that those knife edge moments went the right way.
> I am currently in the mindset that I don't get to choose what I do. I either do it, or I don't and that has forced me down a route to where I find myself. Which has really worked out. But only because I caught myself and that those knife edge moments went the right way.
The problem that I found as I got older is there's substantially less room for just going with the flow. It worked great for years. Now I have people that I'm responsible to and do it or don't do it doesn't work. I can't just leave it to chance if I sit down and read with my kids daily or cook them healthy foods. Their lives will pass by while I'm wondering around waiting for the inspiration to be a good parent.
So a heads up, that works great when no one depends on you much. It works a lot less great when you owe people things that you really care about.
The problem that I found as I got older is there's substantially less room for just going with the flow. It worked great for years. Now I have people that I'm responsible to and do it or don't do it doesn't work. I can't just leave it to chance if I sit down and read with my kids daily or cook them healthy foods. Their lives will pass by while I'm wondering around waiting for the inspiration to be a good parent.
So a heads up, that works great when no one depends on you much. It works a lot less great when you owe people things that you really care about.
I’m 46 and a fully fledged animal
And ‘parenting’ and the other things I’ve manage to choose. However, jobs I can’t stand I leave (eventually)
One of the concerns over meds is that it would enable you to do those jobs you just don’t (and maybe shouldn’t) do.
lol, I don't think I take enough of anything to do things I don't want to or shouldn't do.
This has helped me to do the things that I want to do. It more helps on the task level and less the overarching job level.
This has helped me to do the things that I want to do. It more helps on the task level and less the overarching job level.
It is so interesting how it manifests differently by different people.
I still don’t subscribe to ‘it’s all ADHD’ where everything gets lumped into this block of behavioral reasoning.
I think it’s at an OS level but I think we are just a little more sensitive than non neurodivergents. And that comes with some huge benefits as well as negatives.
I still don’t subscribe to ‘it’s all ADHD’ where everything gets lumped into this block of behavioral reasoning.
I think it’s at an OS level but I think we are just a little more sensitive than non neurodivergents. And that comes with some huge benefits as well as negatives.
No, part of the thing that has made this more successful than when I was a kid is I have spent quite a bit of time working on things like maintaining focus, prioritizing, time management, maintaining healthy sleep patterns. Additionally, I understand what is and isn't ADHD and what can be fixed with a stimulant. If you try to fix all your problems that way, it's not going to work.
When I was young, it was just 'here take this'. No help with understand what was happening or how to work on it. And I think that's a bad place to be.
When I was young, it was just 'here take this'. No help with understand what was happening or how to work on it. And I think that's a bad place to be.
This is extremely helpful for me to read. I was diagnosed in high school, stopped taking meds in college because my family had the same mentality and I thought I could do without.
I've been experiencing the exact same emotions/habits you mention for the past 5 years especially, now that I have a wife and child and it's been extremely stressful and I've been less than fun to be around unless I'd found a way to be super productive that day or perhaps after a couple drinks.
I took adderall for the first time in years yesterday coincidentally, and felt like a new person. I could work through the stuff that I'd been putting off for weeks. My house wasn't a disaster zone with baby toys everywhere.
So all of this just to say, thanks for your write up. I'm going to look into CBT as well and maybe get back on the meds permanently. My only concern is the come down where I was left feeling terrible, but I hear they have better stimulants than adderall these days so perhaps I'll give another one a shot.
I've been experiencing the exact same emotions/habits you mention for the past 5 years especially, now that I have a wife and child and it's been extremely stressful and I've been less than fun to be around unless I'd found a way to be super productive that day or perhaps after a couple drinks.
I took adderall for the first time in years yesterday coincidentally, and felt like a new person. I could work through the stuff that I'd been putting off for weeks. My house wasn't a disaster zone with baby toys everywhere.
So all of this just to say, thanks for your write up. I'm going to look into CBT as well and maybe get back on the meds permanently. My only concern is the come down where I was left feeling terrible, but I hear they have better stimulants than adderall these days so perhaps I'll give another one a shot.
I'm on the same path. I feel like I will ask for a IR to take around 5PM because I can't switch off after work and it's starting to affect my couple.
I can feel the medication starting to wear off around 4PM and get sucked into the time blindness and must work/play rather than spend time with my family.
Thanks for your message. Eyes opening
I can feel the medication starting to wear off around 4PM and get sucked into the time blindness and must work/play rather than spend time with my family.
Thanks for your message. Eyes opening
Yeah, the med management thing is tough and you still gotta do a lot of the work yourself.
What meds are you taking? I avoided this path for as much, but I’m looking to get my doctor prescribe me something.
Ok, that is the assessment after one month. I would be interested to hear your opinion after a year and after a decade of using.
I think your question is pretty rude.
Different people are different.
GP has a good point in that there's an overall stigma against medication, particularly psychiatric medication, in our society.
People say, medication is an aid, a crutch. Well guess what, when your leg is broken, you kind of need that crutch to move around. There's no shame in using a crutch. And if you lost your leg, or happened to be born without one, then guess what, using crutch for the rest of your life is not anything to be ashamed of, and it's rude to suggest it is.
People say, medication is an aid, a crutch. Well guess what, when your leg is broken, you kind of need that crutch to move around. There's no shame in using a crutch. And if you lost your leg, or happened to be born without one, then guess what, using crutch for the rest of your life is not anything to be ashamed of, and it's rude to suggest it is.
And OP is stigmatizing not taking it, with violent imagery.
Do what you need to do, don’t make other people feel bad for not doing what you do.
Do what you need to do, don’t make other people feel bad for not doing what you do.
ADHD is much more complicated than a broken leg. This analogy is very liable to fall apart.
If, for example, you've been taught to walk without your leg (or if you have three legs, all left feet, whatever), using a crutch doesn't make much sense.
We can't safely poke someone's head and test their dopamine levels. So we aren't good at differentiating what could potentially be learned cognitive behaviors | brain structure | genetics from hormonal neurology. Hell, these could all be the same thing on so many levels, but it takes only one to mark a meaningful difference.
Point is, different people are different. And it's rude to think you know someone's experience well enough to liken it to "punching yourself in the face".
If, for example, you've been taught to walk without your leg (or if you have three legs, all left feet, whatever), using a crutch doesn't make much sense.
We can't safely poke someone's head and test their dopamine levels. So we aren't good at differentiating what could potentially be learned cognitive behaviors | brain structure | genetics from hormonal neurology. Hell, these could all be the same thing on so many levels, but it takes only one to mark a meaningful difference.
Point is, different people are different. And it's rude to think you know someone's experience well enough to liken it to "punching yourself in the face".
I think you are a bit premature in your assessment. The first month usually works for most people. Later on, you may find that it has no effect, worse, you start developing a dependency. People don't give up medication due to ideals or laziness, many find that the disease is often manageable using less addictive approaches like CBT.
That said, if medications cure you altogether, there's nothing better. But ADHD, unlike other conditions, seems to relapse a lot.
That said, if medications cure you altogether, there's nothing better. But ADHD, unlike other conditions, seems to relapse a lot.
Do you wear glasses? Would you say you have a dependency on them? I know my wife does. So what?
Again with the stigma.
There’s little medical reason to expect stimulant effectiveness to change after the first couple of weeks, the “honeymoon period”, during which the mood lifting effects are most pronounced. It’s also that same effect that is the main attraction for abusers because it can give euphoria in high enough doses. And yes, that mostly goes away.
But other than a possible slight increase in dopamine re-uptake due to a long term increase in dopamine (over what’s initially a dopamine deficiency as far as we know), there’s no long term habituation (as far as we know).
If you feel better without medication, that’s fine, but please don’t guilt others into throwing away their metaphorical glasses.
Again with the stigma.
There’s little medical reason to expect stimulant effectiveness to change after the first couple of weeks, the “honeymoon period”, during which the mood lifting effects are most pronounced. It’s also that same effect that is the main attraction for abusers because it can give euphoria in high enough doses. And yes, that mostly goes away.
But other than a possible slight increase in dopamine re-uptake due to a long term increase in dopamine (over what’s initially a dopamine deficiency as far as we know), there’s no long term habituation (as far as we know).
If you feel better without medication, that’s fine, but please don’t guilt others into throwing away their metaphorical glasses.
I have been wearing glasses against nearsightedness/astigmatism since I am an adult.
I already needed them as teenagers, but my mother was against it, because I should not grow too dependent on them. Because she says if you wear glasses, the eye adjust to the glasses, so you see as bad with the glasses, as you did without glasses. Then you need stronger glasses, and every time you get stronger glasses, they make the eyes worse, until they make you almost blind. The opticians are destroying your eyes on purpose, so they can sell more glasses
I only got glasses as adult because it was mandatory to get a driving license. I actually got an anxiety attack in the driving exam and failed the exam, when I had to put my glasses on because I was still convince they make you blind.
I wonder if I have ADHD, too. I am completely unable to participate in classes, but my grades in exams were good enough that no teacher suggested testing. It is like I have zero attention on anything said in class, but then hyperfocus on reading/writing/programming stuff. Anyways my mother would not have allowed me to go to a psychiatrist, because she think that psychiatry is a scam. The psychiatrists are only trying to get you addicted to drugs and destroy your health on purpose, so they can sell more drugs.
Or it might be because I could not see anything in class. Then I had to stare at something and try to recognize something in the blur, and that was taking away all my attention. But reading things in close range worked fine without glasses. Perhaps degraded sensory input is actually a cause for ADHD. The brain diverts too much processing power on processing sensations, and there is not enough processing power left for the actual task, and it makes any sensation (distraction) appear much more important. I still cannot participate in classes even with glasses
I already needed them as teenagers, but my mother was against it, because I should not grow too dependent on them. Because she says if you wear glasses, the eye adjust to the glasses, so you see as bad with the glasses, as you did without glasses. Then you need stronger glasses, and every time you get stronger glasses, they make the eyes worse, until they make you almost blind. The opticians are destroying your eyes on purpose, so they can sell more glasses
I only got glasses as adult because it was mandatory to get a driving license. I actually got an anxiety attack in the driving exam and failed the exam, when I had to put my glasses on because I was still convince they make you blind.
I wonder if I have ADHD, too. I am completely unable to participate in classes, but my grades in exams were good enough that no teacher suggested testing. It is like I have zero attention on anything said in class, but then hyperfocus on reading/writing/programming stuff. Anyways my mother would not have allowed me to go to a psychiatrist, because she think that psychiatry is a scam. The psychiatrists are only trying to get you addicted to drugs and destroy your health on purpose, so they can sell more drugs.
Or it might be because I could not see anything in class. Then I had to stare at something and try to recognize something in the blur, and that was taking away all my attention. But reading things in close range worked fine without glasses. Perhaps degraded sensory input is actually a cause for ADHD. The brain diverts too much processing power on processing sensations, and there is not enough processing power left for the actual task, and it makes any sensation (distraction) appear much more important. I still cannot participate in classes even with glasses
Are you not aware that dopamine receptor density increases over time with amphetamine use? Amphetamine may be a net positive for some folks despite this, but for others it actually exacerbates the condition over time.
I think it’s a decrease of receptors or an increase of re-uptake. But yes, there have been results pointing in that direction, but as far as I’m aware this is not as clear as that. Who does it affect? Is it seen with abusers or with users of (generally much lower dosed) meds? How much? How does this compare to the dopamine deficiency we see without treatment? Etc. But if you have a good and recent source, I’d love to read it.
You're misunderstanding the action of the medication and the defect in the brain of adhd. Adhd is an abnormal density of dopamine transporter.
Receptor density might increase, but that's negligible in the system compared to the starting density of transporters at therapeutic doses.
Receptor density might increase, but that's negligible in the system compared to the starting density of transporters at therapeutic doses.
Cite please?
For me, I've been on dexamphetamine sulphate for about five years. I had to have my dose adjusted after about a year, because I experienced what you mentioned (decreased efficacy). Once the dose was increased, the effect became pretty stable though (I'm currently on 45mg a day). I wouldn't say it completely negates my ADHD, but it definitely makes things a lot more manageable.
What did your dose look like at the start? & how did it progress over the 5 years?
I believe it was 30mg (10mg, 3x a day) that I started on. Dosage was adjusted after about a year, when I began to notice the dosage wasn't really having the same effect. Was upped to my current dose that I've been on since then.
> Regardless of anything else, I think the key thing to remember about ADHD is that you do not need to be a high-performing human being, at all, in life. You will forget things and get distracted and not get as much done. So what. You are still intelligent and caring and dedicated and responsible and a hard worker.
Exactly! I was diagnosed later in life by which time I had experienced a significant amount of trauma expecting myself to be normal. Learning to embrace limitations and the "workarounds" needed to function helped me tremendously. Learning to "ride the waves" so to speak and working with your brain changes things day and night.
The other part is learning to stand up for oneself. There's often a lot of undue criticism from others because you need to do things differently. Being constantly criticized because you forget what often amounts to trivial things is one of the worse "symptoms". Many people also associate "togetherness" on unrelated items with competence or ability. Of course there's basic tasks that need to be handled, but many folks view even "struggling" with such things as evidence of incompetence.
For example, adhd'ers often pay a "tax" because they occasionally forget things at the grocery store, but at work they also tend to foresee certain problems long before others do. However many managers see or here about the former and ignore the latter and are too narrow in their mental models to comprehend the differences.
It's also acceptable to ask for help for those weird things your brain refuses todo. I've asked people to "hit enter" for me just to short circuit a procrastination loop. Now I can actually do it "in my head" as a sorta role playing game. :)
> Do not put pressure on yourself to live up to what someone else can do. Only do what you can do, in your time, and be at peace.
Right on. Ironically doing this also lets your brain work better!
Unfortunately this requires understanding from those around you too. Sometimes family members with undiagnosed adhd can be some of the worse due to internalizing all the normal criticisms.
Its great seeing so many adhd'ers sharing actually helpful advice nowadays.
Exactly! I was diagnosed later in life by which time I had experienced a significant amount of trauma expecting myself to be normal. Learning to embrace limitations and the "workarounds" needed to function helped me tremendously. Learning to "ride the waves" so to speak and working with your brain changes things day and night.
The other part is learning to stand up for oneself. There's often a lot of undue criticism from others because you need to do things differently. Being constantly criticized because you forget what often amounts to trivial things is one of the worse "symptoms". Many people also associate "togetherness" on unrelated items with competence or ability. Of course there's basic tasks that need to be handled, but many folks view even "struggling" with such things as evidence of incompetence.
For example, adhd'ers often pay a "tax" because they occasionally forget things at the grocery store, but at work they also tend to foresee certain problems long before others do. However many managers see or here about the former and ignore the latter and are too narrow in their mental models to comprehend the differences.
It's also acceptable to ask for help for those weird things your brain refuses todo. I've asked people to "hit enter" for me just to short circuit a procrastination loop. Now I can actually do it "in my head" as a sorta role playing game. :)
> Do not put pressure on yourself to live up to what someone else can do. Only do what you can do, in your time, and be at peace.
Right on. Ironically doing this also lets your brain work better!
Unfortunately this requires understanding from those around you too. Sometimes family members with undiagnosed adhd can be some of the worse due to internalizing all the normal criticisms.
Its great seeing so many adhd'ers sharing actually helpful advice nowadays.
How did you get diagnosed? Do you feel like it was worth going through the process?
A lot of what you said resonates with me...
> Being constantly criticized because you forget what often amounts to trivial things is one of the worse "symptoms"
I spent a lot of effort removing "trivial" things from my day to day life. I have a rule of ever only doing a single "life admin" thing per day, ideally 0.
A lot of people act like I'm crazy when I talk about hating the dishwasher because it creates a future obligation of having to unload it later.
I'm actually writing a productivity book that revolves around doing less each day and avoiding tasks that create future commitments to avoid cognitive load. When I talk about it to some people, it really resonates. Other people look at me like I'm crazy and and tell me to stop being lazy.
A lot of what you said resonates with me...
> Being constantly criticized because you forget what often amounts to trivial things is one of the worse "symptoms"
I spent a lot of effort removing "trivial" things from my day to day life. I have a rule of ever only doing a single "life admin" thing per day, ideally 0.
A lot of people act like I'm crazy when I talk about hating the dishwasher because it creates a future obligation of having to unload it later.
I'm actually writing a productivity book that revolves around doing less each day and avoiding tasks that create future commitments to avoid cognitive load. When I talk about it to some people, it really resonates. Other people look at me like I'm crazy and and tell me to stop being lazy.
Yes, the process was extremely valuable for me since I didn't know what was "wrong" but knew there was something. I looked up a psychiatrist experienced with diagnosis who recommended a professional IQ exam. There are very clear statistically significant differences associated with ADHD, which helped me accept "adhd" as a real thing. That part alone was worth it and the evidence was pretty undeniable.
I went back for a PhD program and got a diagnosis from the health services there, along with some CBT therapy.
I'd recommend going to a psychiatrist/ therapist with a good track record of diagnosing and treating adhd. Many doctors, even psychiatrists, are dangerously under-versed in adhd or even believe its fake.
haha and I feel the bit about cognitive loading.
I went back for a PhD program and got a diagnosis from the health services there, along with some CBT therapy.
I'd recommend going to a psychiatrist/ therapist with a good track record of diagnosing and treating adhd. Many doctors, even psychiatrists, are dangerously under-versed in adhd or even believe its fake.
haha and I feel the bit about cognitive loading.
Your comment about foresight… enlightening. I’m often in a position where I’ve mapped out a problem far ahead of my peers, sometimes I have to let them toil with the problem for a while before I break the bad news. Quick wit has never been my strong suit, though.
Riding the waves, great metaphor!
When I stopped fighting them, my life got much easier. I found a way of working that suits this better.
When I stopped fighting them, my life got much easier. I found a way of working that suits this better.
Hi, could you give an example of the “press enter” part? I feel it would work for me but I don’t fully understand what you mean.
Sure! It can be a method to overcome procrastination.
Say you’re procrastinating on starting on a new work project. Neurotypicals might just type `npm init myproj` and “hit enter” to break it down into a smaller piece. Useful and seemingly simple..
However, ADHD’ers brain may interpret “hitting enter” as akin to putting your hand on a hot stove element. You literally just can’t do it! In that case type in `npm init myproj`, grab an (open minded) coworker to “hit enter”. Despite the odd looks, having the repo created will often override the blocker!
Though it’s the principal that counts as your brain could shift the blocker to the readme, etc, so you have to adapt as needed. The general premise is to ignore the odd looks, and get help despite the seeming inanity of the action. Involving someone else even trivially helps too, similar to the “body double” concept.
Generally you can use your ability to reason to overcome hind brain hindrances. It’s sort of like using reasoning to create a hot glove to grab hot things out of a fire, rather than “just try harder” to force yourself to have thicker calluses like everyone else. But first you have to accept you don’t have natural calluses and your brain won’t let you grab hot things because it hurts. Grab a glove, or get a friend to.
Say you’re procrastinating on starting on a new work project. Neurotypicals might just type `npm init myproj` and “hit enter” to break it down into a smaller piece. Useful and seemingly simple..
However, ADHD’ers brain may interpret “hitting enter” as akin to putting your hand on a hot stove element. You literally just can’t do it! In that case type in `npm init myproj`, grab an (open minded) coworker to “hit enter”. Despite the odd looks, having the repo created will often override the blocker!
Though it’s the principal that counts as your brain could shift the blocker to the readme, etc, so you have to adapt as needed. The general premise is to ignore the odd looks, and get help despite the seeming inanity of the action. Involving someone else even trivially helps too, similar to the “body double” concept.
Generally you can use your ability to reason to overcome hind brain hindrances. It’s sort of like using reasoning to create a hot glove to grab hot things out of a fire, rather than “just try harder” to force yourself to have thicker calluses like everyone else. But first you have to accept you don’t have natural calluses and your brain won’t let you grab hot things because it hurts. Grab a glove, or get a friend to.
Hey, thank you for explaining it so clearly, it makes total sense. Have a wonderful day.
I'm gonna back you up here. My life is much better without the meds. I have no issues with people who do prefer being medicated, but as the comments to this show there's a weird non-acceptance of people who do not want to be medicated.
Being on meds destroyed my creativity and emotional life, gave me devastating crashes every day and made me feel like I had to fit my entire life into the 6-12 hours a day they were active. If my career required me to go back on meds I would choose a different career, and that is just fine. Structuring your life so that it fits your unmedicated, natural self is just fine. Taking medication if it truly makes you happier is also just fine. Don't judge.
Being on meds destroyed my creativity and emotional life, gave me devastating crashes every day and made me feel like I had to fit my entire life into the 6-12 hours a day they were active. If my career required me to go back on meds I would choose a different career, and that is just fine. Structuring your life so that it fits your unmedicated, natural self is just fine. Taking medication if it truly makes you happier is also just fine. Don't judge.
I've never been diagnosed, but around two weeks ago some random soul on Reddit spotted some symptoms that might be signs of ADHD, or at least things that ADHD meds could help.
I was provided this article: https://invisibleup.com/articles/27/
It is such an accurate description of something I've been struggling with my whole life without ever knowing it. I'm now waiting the weeks and weeks it takes to get a doctor's appointment; going to try for meds and maybe a diagnosis. I've already been formally diagnosed with autism, but ADHD never came up.
If you have even a sneaking suspicion that you might have ADHD, read the article. It is absolutely an eye-opener.
I was provided this article: https://invisibleup.com/articles/27/
It is such an accurate description of something I've been struggling with my whole life without ever knowing it. I'm now waiting the weeks and weeks it takes to get a doctor's appointment; going to try for meds and maybe a diagnosis. I've already been formally diagnosed with autism, but ADHD never came up.
If you have even a sneaking suspicion that you might have ADHD, read the article. It is absolutely an eye-opener.
oh man, i'm in my 30s and this is exactly how my daily life is. I grew up in a culture that didn't have much of an inclination of understanding what ADHD is and stuff, so I never bothered. I really need to get myself checked.
Same here. Both in age (mid-30s) to being exactly how my daily life is to the point of a culture that had a misguided opinion on ADHD.
I shared before on HN that I'm still ongoing investigation with my therapist, after some 2-3 years of therapy and working around some anxiety issues I had we're narrowing it down to a very likely ADHD diagnosis.
The more I read and educate myself about it the more I believe I might have it. It's still hard for me to properly accept that this might be it, and not that I have an inherent failure of character by never being able to keep my focus, motivation, planning, etc. as well as what others can.
To be very honest, something inside me still don't want to believe that I very likely have ADHD, that part still shames me by telling that I'm just using this as a crutch for my failures, that it's just a convenient excuse for not being good enough at some mundane tasks.
It's exhausting, I'm glad I'm finally getting help because for the past 3-4 years I have been on a steadily downwards spiral. It's been very gradual until I got to this point where I can definitely tell I'm suffering mentally because of it...
I shared before on HN that I'm still ongoing investigation with my therapist, after some 2-3 years of therapy and working around some anxiety issues I had we're narrowing it down to a very likely ADHD diagnosis.
The more I read and educate myself about it the more I believe I might have it. It's still hard for me to properly accept that this might be it, and not that I have an inherent failure of character by never being able to keep my focus, motivation, planning, etc. as well as what others can.
To be very honest, something inside me still don't want to believe that I very likely have ADHD, that part still shames me by telling that I'm just using this as a crutch for my failures, that it's just a convenient excuse for not being good enough at some mundane tasks.
It's exhausting, I'm glad I'm finally getting help because for the past 3-4 years I have been on a steadily downwards spiral. It's been very gradual until I got to this point where I can definitely tell I'm suffering mentally because of it...
Yeah I went through something similar, but recently started trying meds again. Not to take every day hopefully, but only in periods where I feel especially affected and want to be more productive. I feel it’s the best of both worlds, but will see how it goes and if I stick with ‘em.
I think it’s good to experiment and figure out what works for you. I’m generally opposed to relying on drugs for things like this unless it’s really necessary, which is why I stopped taking meds for a while. But I’ve been having some real challenges recently with my focus & it’s been so frustrating. Hoping I’m able to find some sort of balance with it.
Guess my point is that it’s ok to let the meds help you too, and it doesn’t need to be problematic. I think I resisted going back on medication for a while because I was thinking “I don’t need anything, I can get by just fine with no help from meds!!” And while that may be true, it can still make my life significantly less frustrating to take the help sometimes.
I think it’s good to experiment and figure out what works for you. I’m generally opposed to relying on drugs for things like this unless it’s really necessary, which is why I stopped taking meds for a while. But I’ve been having some real challenges recently with my focus & it’s been so frustrating. Hoping I’m able to find some sort of balance with it.
Guess my point is that it’s ok to let the meds help you too, and it doesn’t need to be problematic. I think I resisted going back on medication for a while because I was thinking “I don’t need anything, I can get by just fine with no help from meds!!” And while that may be true, it can still make my life significantly less frustrating to take the help sometimes.
I agree. I hope I didn't come off as anti-med; just wanted to share that we can be OK either way. Do what works for you, try different things, but be OK with however you end up, even if it's not as productive as you'd like.
Just as an FYI: I recently started working on my CPTSD by reading stuff by Pete Walker and watching interviews with Gabor Mate. My symptoms have been significantly mitigated. My overall mental health has improved massively, too.
Full disclosure: I've been taking Escitalopram and Wellbutrin for a few years now. I've been working on my CPTSD for a few weeks.
EDIT: Of course I don't just consume the material. I actively engage with my suppressed emotions to heal.
Full disclosure: I've been taking Escitalopram and Wellbutrin for a few years now. I've been working on my CPTSD for a few weeks.
EDIT: Of course I don't just consume the material. I actively engage with my suppressed emotions to heal.
I probably have ADHD or something similar, and have coped for nearly 30 years of my life with that. Let me just say, f*ck going through it all without help.
The moment I get an official diagnosis, I’m getting on meds. I don’t know what the side effects are, but I struggle to imagine that they are worse than barely being able to function as an adult IT professional.
The moment I get an official diagnosis, I’m getting on meds. I don’t know what the side effects are, but I struggle to imagine that they are worse than barely being able to function as an adult IT professional.
Good luck my friend. A bad day on meds is at least as productive as a good day without.
Invest in your mental health. (Diagnosed 1 year ago)
Invest in your mental health. (Diagnosed 1 year ago)
ADHD can be partially treated during childhood. The problem is when it goes undiagnosed for years.
Your adult life may have looked much differently, would you not have been medicated earlier.
Your adult life may have looked much differently, would you not have been medicated earlier.
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Thanks, I really needed to be reminded of that this morning. I've been beating myself up over the same types of thinking and it can be hard sometimes.
Similar case here. In rational circles a study (or studies) came around showing that learning outcomes between the medicated and unmedicated are roughly the same even if testing performance is better on medication. Since I improved my sleep (and lowered distractions), I've had no issues performing or focusing as needed, at least as much as the next guy.
I think the meds are a double-edged sword, and the compromise may be more appropriate for some than others. I also think even more strongly that despite real cases, ADHD medication is overprescribed in the West. If school was boring and I'm a daydreamer, do I need to be "corrected"?
I think the meds are a double-edged sword, and the compromise may be more appropriate for some than others. I also think even more strongly that despite real cases, ADHD medication is overprescribed in the West. If school was boring and I'm a daydreamer, do I need to be "corrected"?
Diagnosed with 25 or so, ADD however. Amphetamines made me even more guilt to function as a super human. And they would make me moody.
I stopped and changed my work environment as well as my self pressure. I can be super functional and motivated sometimes, if I give myself enough time to get there.
However, my partner is taking meds for her ADHD and for her it's honestly a life changer.
I stopped and changed my work environment as well as my self pressure. I can be super functional and motivated sometimes, if I give myself enough time to get there.
However, my partner is taking meds for her ADHD and for her it's honestly a life changer.
I had dropped out of college three times, spent a short stint homeless, and had nothing but tumultuous relationships before I was diagnosed with ADHD and started medication. Now I can live life like a normal human.
Please don't discourage others from taking medication to treat a very real illness.
Please don't discourage others from taking medication to treat a very real illness.
I think this is a nice sentiment, but how did you get there? Truly, I'm desperate for the answer.
Problem is, even if you're perfectly comfortable with your own limitations, and being transparent about them, graduating up through the ranks as a software dev IC or w/e means meeting or managing the expectations that higher ups unempathetically and unilaterally apply. You have to get pretty (extremely) lucky with having a space to advance in the ways that you can. The reality is that you do need to be sufficiently successful to get by, and that bar is getting higher as everything increases in cost. If the smallest piece of real estate in my city for example demands the salary of a senior faang dev to pay for, the pressure is hard to avoid.
Problem is, even if you're perfectly comfortable with your own limitations, and being transparent about them, graduating up through the ranks as a software dev IC or w/e means meeting or managing the expectations that higher ups unempathetically and unilaterally apply. You have to get pretty (extremely) lucky with having a space to advance in the ways that you can. The reality is that you do need to be sufficiently successful to get by, and that bar is getting higher as everything increases in cost. If the smallest piece of real estate in my city for example demands the salary of a senior faang dev to pay for, the pressure is hard to avoid.
Remember that the pressure is being applied by yourself. Nobody is demanding that you buy a home, work at faang, climb the career ladder, etc, except you. Stop giving yourself a hard time. You wouldn't give others a hard time about their career [or lack of one], would you?
The way I got there is: My goals were not very high. I made a crapton of personal projects and taught myself an insane amount by 19/20 so that I actually knew a good deal more technically and practically than some intermediate positions. I was overconfident and good at seeming very talented. I took jobs that didn't require a ton of technical or incredibly hard interviews. And I coasted for about the first 10 years. The next 10 I overworked myself because I thought I needed to, because I didn't want to do the job anymore and figured if I just did it better than anyone else I'd feel better about it. And finally I took jobs where I was literally making the world and people better.
The whole time, I gave myself crap for not getting enough done, and much of the time felt bad for "wasting" my time. Now I realize that I have a ton of life left still and no particular goals in mind, so who cares if it's a waste as long as I can enjoy the waste? And I do (mostly) enjoy my job and my free time now. Sure I don't own a home and the things I want deem farther off than for many others. Same is true for many other people, and that's fine. Whatever happens is just life and it's OK. Just sucks that it took me so long to realize that who I am is fine and doesn't need fixing.
The way I got there is: My goals were not very high. I made a crapton of personal projects and taught myself an insane amount by 19/20 so that I actually knew a good deal more technically and practically than some intermediate positions. I was overconfident and good at seeming very talented. I took jobs that didn't require a ton of technical or incredibly hard interviews. And I coasted for about the first 10 years. The next 10 I overworked myself because I thought I needed to, because I didn't want to do the job anymore and figured if I just did it better than anyone else I'd feel better about it. And finally I took jobs where I was literally making the world and people better.
The whole time, I gave myself crap for not getting enough done, and much of the time felt bad for "wasting" my time. Now I realize that I have a ton of life left still and no particular goals in mind, so who cares if it's a waste as long as I can enjoy the waste? And I do (mostly) enjoy my job and my free time now. Sure I don't own a home and the things I want deem farther off than for many others. Same is true for many other people, and that's fine. Whatever happens is just life and it's OK. Just sucks that it took me so long to realize that who I am is fine and doesn't need fixing.
[deleted]
'Only do what you can do, in your time, and be at peace.'
This.
Everyone has their own genius. Go find it. It might be
This.
Everyone has their own genius. Go find it. It might be
As a noob, can you guys give me an idea of what it is to live with ADHD? My understanding is that focus is a spectrum and different people are on different spots on that spectrum. I always imagine that something becomes a condition and gets a name (like ADHD) once it becomes an issue in your life and prevents you from functioning in society. When I hear that you're a staff engineer it sorts of tells me that it's not really an issue for you? Not saying that you don't struggle with focus, but everybody is, I imagine that some people can't even hold a job because of their lack of focus though.
It's like hearing a lot of noises up close and loud but then noticing they are far away. They distract you. The clock ticking. The tap dripping. The person on the other side of the office eating crisps.
Ok, turn back to your desk and focus. Got to finish this task.
"Hey John, did you fix that problem with the DB log crash?"
You look up, realize John and the boss are on the other side of the room and you are not part of the discussion.
You put your mind back to that task. Reading the product documentation, "click click, someone across from you taps their keyboard" ... wow, you noticed that 1 hour 30 minutes suddenly passed but you do not recall much of the documentation you just read.
Getting back to it.. a friend messages you a funny joke on whatsapp. 20 minutes of chit chat go by and you realize most of your team already left the office to go home.
There are also other things like fatigue. You'll be able to force yourself to keep up but it takes a toll and eventually you fatigue. Productivity then drops massively and people think you are a slacker.
"Hey John, did you fix that problem with the DB log crash?"
You look up, realize John and the boss are on the other side of the room and you are not part of the discussion.
You put your mind back to that task. Reading the product documentation, "click click, someone across from you taps their keyboard" ... wow, you noticed that 1 hour 30 minutes suddenly passed but you do not recall much of the documentation you just read.
Getting back to it.. a friend messages you a funny joke on whatsapp. 20 minutes of chit chat go by and you realize most of your team already left the office to go home.
There are also other things like fatigue. You'll be able to force yourself to keep up but it takes a toll and eventually you fatigue. Productivity then drops massively and people think you are a slacker.
Idk, sounds like normal day to day life to me.
Isn't it just how normal people perceive life? That's why so many people are happy not to work in the offices after all, or, when in office, wear headphones for hours.
On balance there are measurable effects that substantially impact the person over their lifetime. More likely to not finish tasks, assignments, schooling (dropout or poor grades that dont reflect capability). Poor impulse management leading to bad finances, addictions etc.
The symptoms start in childhood and over time these small paper cuts accumulate. As an adult the adhd individual often has extremely low self esteem (and very often comorbid depression), even if they do not show it.
It feels normal. Until you talk to more people and realize you aren’t normal and you don’t actually suck and you might be able to get it together and have a reasonable life if you chain yourself to daily meds and sleep enough and exercise enough and have routines and build 20 other environmental tweaks, guardrails, and micro habits.
There’s some breakdown between wanting things and being able to do them. Wanting to do the things but letting down everyone (teachers, friends, family, self). The thing you can’t do might be chores (frustrated that the house is a mess but unable to make it not a mess), keeping up with friends or family (never keeping in touch enough), hobbies (never able to focus long enough to really make progress), work (continuing to function after the initial learning curve wears off), being able to focus long enough to read books you want to read, having conversations with people who prefer to have one conversation at a time instead of four, listening patiently and not interrupting as someone continues explaining the thing you picked up on after their fifth word and they’re on their fifth sentence now…
Everything falls apart slowly and it’s easy to get frustrated with yourself and lose hope. Meds help but being chained to them is a shitty feeling too. They’re a pain to get and require frequent check-ins as stimulants are controlled substances in the USA. The other non-medicine interventions all help in little ways that add up too.
There’s some breakdown between wanting things and being able to do them. Wanting to do the things but letting down everyone (teachers, friends, family, self). The thing you can’t do might be chores (frustrated that the house is a mess but unable to make it not a mess), keeping up with friends or family (never keeping in touch enough), hobbies (never able to focus long enough to really make progress), work (continuing to function after the initial learning curve wears off), being able to focus long enough to read books you want to read, having conversations with people who prefer to have one conversation at a time instead of four, listening patiently and not interrupting as someone continues explaining the thing you picked up on after their fifth word and they’re on their fifth sentence now…
Everything falls apart slowly and it’s easy to get frustrated with yourself and lose hope. Meds help but being chained to them is a shitty feeling too. They’re a pain to get and require frequent check-ins as stimulants are controlled substances in the USA. The other non-medicine interventions all help in little ways that add up too.
It's a tough one, because the symptoms are relatable to most ("isn't that everybody?"). They're just more intense than for most, and come with unexpected "features" like executive disfunction. The intensity also varies from a person to another, and the severity depends on a person's lifestyle.
The lack of focus is a lure, an oversimplification. It's not just "I can't focus on something I don't like to do". It's more like "halfway into making a cup of coffee, the most important thing in my life became to clean the pantry". Imagine running late, but stopping dead in your tracks with only one sock on, and answering an email. You know it's mad, but you can't help it.
However if you have a job that's lenient enough, you can hide it well. I stopped treatment because I couldn't gather enough data. My job was too easy to know if it worked. It's still the case.
Another thing is that a lot of people learned to cope with it for decades before getting diagnosed. Their life is full of alarms and error-catching mechanisms, so the symptoms are well-managed. If you know your strengths and weaknesses, you pick your battles. It's not an issue unless your battles are picked for you.
The lack of focus is a lure, an oversimplification. It's not just "I can't focus on something I don't like to do". It's more like "halfway into making a cup of coffee, the most important thing in my life became to clean the pantry". Imagine running late, but stopping dead in your tracks with only one sock on, and answering an email. You know it's mad, but you can't help it.
However if you have a job that's lenient enough, you can hide it well. I stopped treatment because I couldn't gather enough data. My job was too easy to know if it worked. It's still the case.
Another thing is that a lot of people learned to cope with it for decades before getting diagnosed. Their life is full of alarms and error-catching mechanisms, so the symptoms are well-managed. If you know your strengths and weaknesses, you pick your battles. It's not an issue unless your battles are picked for you.
I think for outreach, hammering on executive disfunction is the best way to go. It's the most alien to the neurotypical, and it most clearly paints ADHD as a disability, rather than a mere personality trait. And rather than talking about failing to focus on things you don't want to do, talk about failing to focus on things you want to do, but simply fail to produce incremental enough satisfaction to remain focused on. Like, before I got medicated, I would want to watch a movie. I would enjoy watching a movie. But you better bet I'd be getting up, checking my phone, going to the restroom out of sheer restlessness, etc, instead of doing the thing I wanted to be doing: watching the damn movie.
> something becomes a condition and gets a name (like ADHD) once it becomes an issue in your life and prevents you from functioning in society.
It gets named once it becomes an issue in life. It doesn't need to be as bad as being unable to function to get diagnosed.
It gets named once it becomes an issue in life. It doesn't need to be as bad as being unable to function to get diagnosed.
Life falling apart and you go play in the woods ;)
This may solve the associated psychological issues for people that have them but does not help with the executive issues.
Does your company know that you have ADHD? If so how was there response?
Why did you stop taking meds? Curious what would be your reasons against it.
I'm not GP but I also stopped taking meds (actually recently for me, and I'm 27). I'm sure GP's reason is different. My reason was that I had realized that a lot of my old ADHD symptoms were actually still happening. I was still procrastinating, still getting stressed when forced to focus on stuff I don't care about, still forgetting stuff. As an experiment, I decided to keep lowering my dose to see what happens. I kept lowering it until 0 and basically nothing has changed. I still do great at my job, can study stuff I'm interested in, can function completely normally. Makes me wonder whether the effects had simply worn off after so long, or if it was placebo from the start.
> My reason was that I had realized that a lot of my old ADHD symptoms were actually still happening. I was still procrastinating, still getting stressed when forced to focus on stuff I don't care about, still forgetting stuff.
Anecdotally, I've watched a lot of friends and colleagues go through this exact cycle: Going on meds and then just focusing more intensely on their distractions. I really think we're doing a disservice to all the people who get a prescription and get sent out the door without a more involved framework for how to use the meds as part of their ADHD treatment strategy rather than a presumed cure in a pill.
Anecdotally, I've watched a lot of friends and colleagues go through this exact cycle: Going on meds and then just focusing more intensely on their distractions. I really think we're doing a disservice to all the people who get a prescription and get sent out the door without a more involved framework for how to use the meds as part of their ADHD treatment strategy rather than a presumed cure in a pill.
N=1, I can confirm this effect. I started to call stimulant medication "sticky". As in, when they kick in, I find it much easier to focus on doing whatever it is I am doing at that time. So, if they kick in while I'm on HN, I can kiss the next couple hours goodbye.
It's a trap that took me too long to figure out, and one I still fall into quite often (the period between taking a pill and it kicking in is long enough that I may habitually start procrastinating), but wrt. differences in my life on vs. off meds, in times when I feel similar to what GP described, I'm reassured by my wife who can smell me taking a med break even if I don't tell her, because from her POV, I change for the worse in the scope of a day or two. She sees the change even before I feel it.
> I really think we're doing a disservice to all the people who get a prescription and get sent out the door without a more involved framework for how to use the meds as part of their ADHD treatment strategy rather than a presumed cure in a pill.
As much as I believe the meds are a net benefit overall (they definitely are for me), I 100% agree with this sentiment.
It's a trap that took me too long to figure out, and one I still fall into quite often (the period between taking a pill and it kicking in is long enough that I may habitually start procrastinating), but wrt. differences in my life on vs. off meds, in times when I feel similar to what GP described, I'm reassured by my wife who can smell me taking a med break even if I don't tell her, because from her POV, I change for the worse in the scope of a day or two. She sees the change even before I feel it.
> I really think we're doing a disservice to all the people who get a prescription and get sent out the door without a more involved framework for how to use the meds as part of their ADHD treatment strategy rather than a presumed cure in a pill.
As much as I believe the meds are a net benefit overall (they definitely are for me), I 100% agree with this sentiment.
This feels so validating to read. I was having problems with my attention cannon and they just handed me a bigger one.
I stopped when I caught myself in a deep dive about the different types of flour in Germany.
It also affected my mood in really unpleasant ways, both for me and people around me. And it gave me a productivity boost at work at the expense of my life past 4PM.
Nowadays I just have a coffee before work.
I stopped when I caught myself in a deep dive about the different types of flour in Germany.
It also affected my mood in really unpleasant ways, both for me and people around me. And it gave me a productivity boost at work at the expense of my life past 4PM.
Nowadays I just have a coffee before work.
Everyone's different. In my case, medication almost entirely eliminates the anxiety that's been a constant background presence, slow-burn torture, for most of my life. They also stabilize my mood. If the meds were to suddenly stop having any other positive effect, and kept the negative and neutral side effects, the anxiety reduction and mood stabilization alone would make them worth their weight in gold for me.
This was my experience with adderall in college, as someone who I don’t think suffers from these conditions.
Similar for me. It is like shooting a bullet. If I was pointed at a distraction by god I did the shit out of that thing. Maybe I was supposed to be reversing an app for a project but instead I made the most beautiful CSS thing I had ever created. Or some other highly unrelated tangent O_o
> Going on meds and then just focusing more intensely on their distractions
... shit, that was today for me. Oops. (But in all fairness, I'm still recovering from a flu.)
... shit, that was today for me. Oops. (But in all fairness, I'm still recovering from a flu.)
I'm curious... Are these not things virtually everyone struggles with to some degree? There are no end to time management books and people who wish they would spend less time on their phones/playing video games/etc.
Virtually everyone struggles with it to some degree, some of the time. ADHD people struggle with this to a high degree, all of the time, to the point it interferes with their ability to function, and causes no end of anguish.
It's like accidentally giving yourself a small burn when pulling things out of an oven, vs. having a 2nd degree burns on half of your body. Technically the same thing, but scale matters.
It's like accidentally giving yourself a small burn when pulling things out of an oven, vs. having a 2nd degree burns on half of your body. Technically the same thing, but scale matters.
No when you have ADHD it's really really hard to get started on a new task, but you do obsess over a task once you get started on it.
You'll do everything you can to avoid it first though, until the stress of the deadline overweighs the dread to start.
You'll do everything you can to avoid it first though, until the stress of the deadline overweighs the dread to start.
I always find that portion of ADHD somewhat amusing. Getting fixated on a task and unable to context switch is a big thing, which I think is surprising for many people.
This is also something that has crossed my mind. In the early days of my diagnosis, it was a challenge to explain that I even had a problem. People would (rightfully) say "isn't that basically everyone?" and I would have to struggle to say "yeah but mine's worse. I'm diagnosed." It was a real drag at the time but nowadays I'm thinking maybe they were right.
As a next experiment, give Atomoxetine a shot. Works nicely for me and is not a stim. I feel it makes me more emotionally involved/interested in whatever I'm focusing on, so very easy to get into flow states, provided there are no distractions around. It doesn't warp time or change your mood/personality like the typical stim based meds. It does affect appetite, so if you are trying to lose weight, it becomes very easy.
Mainly because I was also put on anti-depressants, anti-psychotics etc and it was making me much worse (sometimes parents are idiots). But before that the stimulants turned me into an emotionless zombie. Once the meds wore off, crying was a magical revelation, like, "oh! this is what feelings are like! this is awesome!"
thanks for this.
biggerChris(3)
This short scene from Malcolm in the Middle is the best explanation I've found of ADHD as an adult: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbSehcT19u0
He tries to turn on the light, the bulb is dead, unscrews it, then as he's getting the bulb the shelf in the cabinet it's in is loose.
He gets a screwdriver to fix the cabinet, but the rails on the drawer the screwdriver's in are squeaky. He gets some WD-40 to fix that, but the can of WD-40 is empty. He then gets in the car, which refuses to start.
Then his wife gets home, and he's underneath the car covered in motor oil. "Hal, did you replace that light bulb in the kitchen?" "WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE I'M DOING?!".
He tries to turn on the light, the bulb is dead, unscrews it, then as he's getting the bulb the shelf in the cabinet it's in is loose.
He gets a screwdriver to fix the cabinet, but the rails on the drawer the screwdriver's in are squeaky. He gets some WD-40 to fix that, but the can of WD-40 is empty. He then gets in the car, which refuses to start.
Then his wife gets home, and he's underneath the car covered in motor oil. "Hal, did you replace that light bulb in the kitchen?" "WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE I'M DOING?!".
It’s the genuine exasperation and haste that sells it. He hasn’t forgotten what he originally started. But he’s earnestly doing his best while seemingly everything fails needing urgent attention.
And he missed the obvious (with hindsight) options of, calling a taxi, catching a bus, etc.
And he missed the obvious (with hindsight) options of, calling a taxi, catching a bus, etc.
Also known as Yak Shaving in our industry :)
Still, the reference to ADHD is definitely valid!
Still, the reference to ADHD is definitely valid!
This is going to sound like nitpicking, but no, and the distinction is what makes it a good example of ADHD. "Yak shaving" (at least as I've always heard it used) isn't applicable here.
It would be if she came home and he's repairing his circular saw or something. Why is he doing that? It's because the ladder's broken, and you need the ladder to reach the light bulb, and to fix the ladder you need the saw.
So, a seemingly unrelated task that an outsider observing you might be surprised that you're engaged in, but which is required to allow you to solve the problem at hand. That's "Yak shaving".
Whereas he doesn't actually need to fix the shelf, or lubricate the drawer, or fix the car.
The only thing that would make it better is if he'd somehow managed to misplace the lightbulbs along the way, with Lois's looking annoyed over a forced candlelight dinner.
It would be if she came home and he's repairing his circular saw or something. Why is he doing that? It's because the ladder's broken, and you need the ladder to reach the light bulb, and to fix the ladder you need the saw.
So, a seemingly unrelated task that an outsider observing you might be surprised that you're engaged in, but which is required to allow you to solve the problem at hand. That's "Yak shaving".
Whereas he doesn't actually need to fix the shelf, or lubricate the drawer, or fix the car.
The only thing that would make it better is if he'd somehow managed to misplace the lightbulbs along the way, with Lois's looking annoyed over a forced candlelight dinner.
Fair point, I missed the distinction between simple distractions and having to take care of an ever-growing chain reaction of necessary tasks to fulfil the original mission.
[deleted]
I was diagnosed last year at 35. I've tried and failed to launch my own projects since I was 13.
I was a classic adhd child, at a time when diagnosis and treatment was rare.
Children whose dopamine regulation issues are treated early can leave medication as their brain adjusts while still plastic.
In adulthood you're stuck. I've battled addiction, terrible damage to relationships and failure to achieve my full happiness potential.
Founding a company is extra hard.
I'm glad I'm medicated now. The result has been life changing and profound.
The more we talk, treat and exercise compassion about this horrible neurological disorder the better.
It isn't like a broken leg or depression, the symptoms are varied and express in complex ways.
Thank you to anyone talking about this with kindness and compassion
I was a classic adhd child, at a time when diagnosis and treatment was rare.
Children whose dopamine regulation issues are treated early can leave medication as their brain adjusts while still plastic.
In adulthood you're stuck. I've battled addiction, terrible damage to relationships and failure to achieve my full happiness potential.
Founding a company is extra hard.
I'm glad I'm medicated now. The result has been life changing and profound.
The more we talk, treat and exercise compassion about this horrible neurological disorder the better.
It isn't like a broken leg or depression, the symptoms are varied and express in complex ways.
Thank you to anyone talking about this with kindness and compassion
How has the meds changed your life? And have you done anything else apart from being prescribed medication?
For the first time in my life i've not had my own brain screaming at me, 24/7, deafening my inner voice with chaotic noise.
I can think. I can maintain a single strand of thought, then act on it. I can think, feel appropriate impulse, then "do" based on that impulse without it being out competed by the noise of random impulsive dopamine sparks.
I'm the same, my emotions are the same, but there's more control. My brain isn't "hunting" for stimulation.
I've been in therapy for 10 years too.
I can think. I can maintain a single strand of thought, then act on it. I can think, feel appropriate impulse, then "do" based on that impulse without it being out competed by the noise of random impulsive dopamine sparks.
I'm the same, my emotions are the same, but there's more control. My brain isn't "hunting" for stimulation.
I've been in therapy for 10 years too.
As someone who is also battling ADHD, I feel super anxious reading the comments here all talking about X and Y medicine, which I am super not wanting to do.
I used to do therapy but I found my therapist was making videos on Facebook about a few things I told him (though I was never named but I felt this was a huge breach of trust).
I exercise quite a bit. (lots of cardio and core exercises, I particularly enjoy barbell squats and sledgehammer workouts ). But since I have had an injury on my foot for the past couple of days I have been taking it easy by not going to the gym and I feel really low cause of this.This is one kind of super positive thing I do. I don't like the gym I go to cause the instructors mostly pay attention to the girls and only ever paid attention to me to sell me some protein powder or when the tim comes for me to renew my subscription. (But that's only a specific issue for my gym, as I am shifting to a new city in a couple of months, I think I can try out a bunch of places before choosing one)
The other thing I do occasionally journal, most of the times,which I use it to vent out my thoughts. I also even more rarely do a workbook for CBT (which is for perfectionism which is another trait I found myself to have)
Anyway, what I wanted to know was has anyone tried not using any fancy 100$ subscription based apps OR meds to do their work and found success? What did you do and how did you cope with life in general?
Background info: I am 25, working in the IT field, I feel kind of directionless in life as I am still working on a plan to get into an MS degree abroad (though my parents really encourage me to do an MBA).
/end vent
I used to do therapy but I found my therapist was making videos on Facebook about a few things I told him (though I was never named but I felt this was a huge breach of trust).
I exercise quite a bit. (lots of cardio and core exercises, I particularly enjoy barbell squats and sledgehammer workouts ). But since I have had an injury on my foot for the past couple of days I have been taking it easy by not going to the gym and I feel really low cause of this.This is one kind of super positive thing I do. I don't like the gym I go to cause the instructors mostly pay attention to the girls and only ever paid attention to me to sell me some protein powder or when the tim comes for me to renew my subscription. (But that's only a specific issue for my gym, as I am shifting to a new city in a couple of months, I think I can try out a bunch of places before choosing one)
The other thing I do occasionally journal, most of the times,which I use it to vent out my thoughts. I also even more rarely do a workbook for CBT (which is for perfectionism which is another trait I found myself to have)
Anyway, what I wanted to know was has anyone tried not using any fancy 100$ subscription based apps OR meds to do their work and found success? What did you do and how did you cope with life in general?
Background info: I am 25, working in the IT field, I feel kind of directionless in life as I am still working on a plan to get into an MS degree abroad (though my parents really encourage me to do an MBA).
/end vent
(sorry, I feel I'm taking over this post, lol, but f it)
my coping strategies have been: 1) carve out some time to do distractionless work. check calendar, put up away message, close email, turn on background music (cafe jazz, Bob Ross, or intelligent d&b) w/headphones, write down a small task to complete on sticky note next to monitor, set timer (maybe multiple). 2) have a routine. weekday: work 9-5, gym, cook, miscellaneous, sleep. sat: projects. sun: hike. 3) lists. shopping list, jira tickets, work journal, personal road map, calendar everything.
you have 3/4 of your life ahead of you. directionless is fine. try lots of things, keep what sticks, throw away the rest. do what feels right for you. if you don't know what to do, welcome to the club :) just be healthy, have fun, pay your bills, be a good friend, and the rest will come. it gets easier.
my coping strategies have been: 1) carve out some time to do distractionless work. check calendar, put up away message, close email, turn on background music (cafe jazz, Bob Ross, or intelligent d&b) w/headphones, write down a small task to complete on sticky note next to monitor, set timer (maybe multiple). 2) have a routine. weekday: work 9-5, gym, cook, miscellaneous, sleep. sat: projects. sun: hike. 3) lists. shopping list, jira tickets, work journal, personal road map, calendar everything.
you have 3/4 of your life ahead of you. directionless is fine. try lots of things, keep what sticks, throw away the rest. do what feels right for you. if you don't know what to do, welcome to the club :) just be healthy, have fun, pay your bills, be a good friend, and the rest will come. it gets easier.
Shoutout to intelligent DNB!
Thank you for the comment. It's good to hear from someone who has been able to cope without the use of medication. The most advice I've been able to find online is really buy XYZ drug OR buy ABC app. I've been trying to stay away from these sort of things.
I forgot another coping mechanism: I usually need to be drinking something constantly when focusing. Coffee got to be too much so I always have a pot of hot strong tea, like all the time. Sometimes I need snacks too. Something about it keeping my mouth busy relieves the urge to go do something temporarily.
I've also abandoned social media due to doom scrolling. Still use HN way too much but whatever we all have our vices.
I've also abandoned social media due to doom scrolling. Still use HN way too much but whatever we all have our vices.
[deleted]
Apex Twin, or any industrial or death metal recommendations on Bandcamp
I'm not on meds anymore. Did try them for a month though. Worked great aside from giving me stress as it wore off. Really weird to feel stressed for literally actually no reason.
What it did give me is a look into what functioning normally-ish would look like, Which has helped enormously.
I'm not a huge fan of medication myself, but if I were you I'd definitely give it a shot. You can always stop if it's not your thing and there's a fair chance at lasting improvement even when you DO stop.
What it did give me is a look into what functioning normally-ish would look like, Which has helped enormously.
I'm not a huge fan of medication myself, but if I were you I'd definitely give it a shot. You can always stop if it's not your thing and there's a fair chance at lasting improvement even when you DO stop.
I take meds for unrelated things, for allopecia, like Finasteride, Minoxidil, Saw Palmetto. I am not sure how those would interact with the medicines I saw on this thread.
I also take Algae based Omega 3 semi regularly (but that stuff tastes like crayons).
I also take Algae based Omega 3 semi regularly (but that stuff tastes like crayons).
Checkout these post:https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30557068, https://medium.com/@bladley/my-battle-with-post-finasteride-...
I also have OCD, ADHD and a PD mom, so I know the pain of being unwell. I take Fluoxetine and Ritalin. While I have not used Finasteride use them with caution, because I do not won't any one to go through any more pain due to meds.
I also have OCD, ADHD and a PD mom, so I know the pain of being unwell. I take Fluoxetine and Ritalin. While I have not used Finasteride use them with caution, because I do not won't any one to go through any more pain due to meds.
Oh jeez definitely look into the potential side effects of finasteride if you haven’t already. ADHD meds have nothing on it, side effect wise.
As someone on both this is not true ime. finasteride has had no side effects for me, while adderall makes me irritable and paranoid when it wears off, not to mention the insomnia it causes.
For what it's worth, stimulants' effect on sleep varies a lot from person to person. I definitely know people who struggled with insomnia from amphetamines, especially when their dose was too high, but for me and others I've talked to, it let me lay down and choose to sleep, which as someone who had suffered from insomnia most of my life, was a godsend.
Please see my comment : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33691229
It's worked fine for me so far.
Hi, (First of all, that's some scheisse with your ex-therapist! What a narcissistic loser)
I've managed without diagnosis, medication or specific therapy for most of my life and I've struggled but like many with a late diagnosis I was able to compensate with intelligence and wits.
It is often said that ADHD treatment has three pillars, which don't always have to come together to work: Psychotherapy, Psychoeducation, Medical Treatment.
Psychotherapy is the professional help you can get to identify your patterns of behavior that might make your situation worse and change them (and probably more).
Psychoeducation is your own learning about the condition which can be supported by therapy session but consists a lot of reading books/articles, listening to podcasts etc. Support groups can be of great help, too. They exist online and offline and you should feel comfortable with the group you find. All of these are what helped me the most.
Medication helped me, as well but only really after I properly started learning about the condition. Some people report revolutionary effects but it's moderate for me. I also had to try a few different medications and doses, which is quite common and very individual. It can also change.
There are many that share your reluctance against taking meds and ultimately, all serious therapists and support groups will support that. However, they might want to talk to you about your reasons for not wanting to try the effect at least. A reason is, that they can often be a jump start for successful therapy because they can reduce the primary symptoms of ADHD (like inattentiveness) and let you work better on the secondary symptoms (e.g. low self-esteem), both of which differ from person to person. Even if you decide going without meds, it's a good step to know what's your concept of yourself and your mind and how meds would interact with that because it gives you a better understanding of your personal situation.
I hope that helped a bit even though I didn't go into how I managed myself before the diagnosis in my late 20s. It's been rough, to say the least. It still is but I have learned a lot about myself that lets me accept myself more easily for who I am (a sentence I would have laughed about in the years before). And that in turn makes everything a bit easier.
I've managed without diagnosis, medication or specific therapy for most of my life and I've struggled but like many with a late diagnosis I was able to compensate with intelligence and wits.
It is often said that ADHD treatment has three pillars, which don't always have to come together to work: Psychotherapy, Psychoeducation, Medical Treatment.
Psychotherapy is the professional help you can get to identify your patterns of behavior that might make your situation worse and change them (and probably more).
Psychoeducation is your own learning about the condition which can be supported by therapy session but consists a lot of reading books/articles, listening to podcasts etc. Support groups can be of great help, too. They exist online and offline and you should feel comfortable with the group you find. All of these are what helped me the most.
Medication helped me, as well but only really after I properly started learning about the condition. Some people report revolutionary effects but it's moderate for me. I also had to try a few different medications and doses, which is quite common and very individual. It can also change.
There are many that share your reluctance against taking meds and ultimately, all serious therapists and support groups will support that. However, they might want to talk to you about your reasons for not wanting to try the effect at least. A reason is, that they can often be a jump start for successful therapy because they can reduce the primary symptoms of ADHD (like inattentiveness) and let you work better on the secondary symptoms (e.g. low self-esteem), both of which differ from person to person. Even if you decide going without meds, it's a good step to know what's your concept of yourself and your mind and how meds would interact with that because it gives you a better understanding of your personal situation.
I hope that helped a bit even though I didn't go into how I managed myself before the diagnosis in my late 20s. It's been rough, to say the least. It still is but I have learned a lot about myself that lets me accept myself more easily for who I am (a sentence I would have laughed about in the years before). And that in turn makes everything a bit easier.
Have you ever considered picking up a martial art? I did Taekwondo for some time before covid hit, and I loved the sense of community it had.
Something that I've wanted to try is creating or joining a group of people who meet on a regular basis (at least weekly for me), talk about principles, projects, plans, progress, and in doing so, hold each other accountable.
Something that I've wanted to try is creating or joining a group of people who meet on a regular basis (at least weekly for me), talk about principles, projects, plans, progress, and in doing so, hold each other accountable.
I go for cycling with some people I found on Facebook. I had however stopped for the past month.
Feel you.
I have existed with ADHD all my life without knowing. I knew something was different though.
I have a mini version of myself who has it a bit more severe which is where I finally worked it out and got a diagnosis. I am however only on the cusp and there are somethings that the Dr is 'confused' about.
I haven't 'needed' meds however IF i was growing up now I probably would be prescribed.
My personality (and if impulsive ADHD creates my personality, who knows) has led me down a tremendously exciting life. Curiosity kills the cat (but that is why a cat has nine lives).
I would encourage everyone to not use their ADHD on ADHD. So meta. Get Hyper Focus on it. I would encourage those to use it to find what they are about. What they like and interest in life.
Yes, its an absolute ball ache at times (procrastination) but there is magnificence out there and it unfolds when we look (in my opinion).
So, balance it. Know what is going to be good for you (sleep, exercise, healthy living) but also know that you can fuck around in life. It is a perfectly acceptable pastime and your internal guide will show you the way.
Do what you want in life. This is independent of ADHD.
How is that for woooo-hoooy?
I have existed with ADHD all my life without knowing. I knew something was different though.
I have a mini version of myself who has it a bit more severe which is where I finally worked it out and got a diagnosis. I am however only on the cusp and there are somethings that the Dr is 'confused' about.
I haven't 'needed' meds however IF i was growing up now I probably would be prescribed.
My personality (and if impulsive ADHD creates my personality, who knows) has led me down a tremendously exciting life. Curiosity kills the cat (but that is why a cat has nine lives).
I would encourage everyone to not use their ADHD on ADHD. So meta. Get Hyper Focus on it. I would encourage those to use it to find what they are about. What they like and interest in life.
Yes, its an absolute ball ache at times (procrastination) but there is magnificence out there and it unfolds when we look (in my opinion).
So, balance it. Know what is going to be good for you (sleep, exercise, healthy living) but also know that you can fuck around in life. It is a perfectly acceptable pastime and your internal guide will show you the way.
Do what you want in life. This is independent of ADHD.
How is that for woooo-hoooy?
I'm 30. I have been unmedicated for 22 years, and finally went back to address it just a month ago. I had many fears as you with regards to medication. Is needing it a weakness? Is it going to change who I am? The first time I took one way scary.
And you know what? I figured out, it's just not a big deal. You get a slightly increased heart rate, so you'll feel a little warm the first couple days. Other than that, though, the effect is that you are able to ignore distractions and adjust your focus at will a bit better. It doesn't turn you into someone else, and it doesn't turn you into what you imagine a neurotypical person abusing stimulants is like.
If you're struggling in any way, and think it could help, it's worth a try. They're non-addictive (I don't have any particular desire to take them).
And you know what? I figured out, it's just not a big deal. You get a slightly increased heart rate, so you'll feel a little warm the first couple days. Other than that, though, the effect is that you are able to ignore distractions and adjust your focus at will a bit better. It doesn't turn you into someone else, and it doesn't turn you into what you imagine a neurotypical person abusing stimulants is like.
If you're struggling in any way, and think it could help, it's worth a try. They're non-addictive (I don't have any particular desire to take them).
Get you B6 levels tested:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24321736/
Also, it is not about dopamine, it is about glutamate: https://www.brown.edu/news/2018-03-12/glutamate
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24321736/
Also, it is not about dopamine, it is about glutamate: https://www.brown.edu/news/2018-03-12/glutamate
While glutamate seems to play a significant role, it’s not enough evidence to discount dopamines role.
This whole space is in need of more research, we’re not at stage where definitive statements can be made one way or the other.
This whole space is in need of more research, we’re not at stage where definitive statements can be made one way or the other.
Sorry, I should have wrote Also, it is not about fundamentally about dopamine, but it is fundamentally about glutamate.
> After meeting the founders last summer during their YC batch, I’ve been pretty consistently using the app InFlow, which I described to a friend as “super chill easy cognitive behavioural skill-building around ADHD.” I feel like I’ve made real progress using it.
This blog post reads like an advertisement for InFlow (YC S21), which was roundly criticized for being exploitative of people with ADHD, when it was posted to HN last year: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28877003
[Edit: the author has clarified below that this wasn't actually an advertisement, she just enjoyed the app. I'm sorry for jumping to conclusions and overreacting and ranting about it. My apologies for writing all the bullshit above and below.]
This blog post reads like an advertisement for InFlow (YC S21), which was roundly criticized for being exploitative of people with ADHD, when it was posted to HN last year: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28877003
[Edit: the author has clarified below that this wasn't actually an advertisement, she just enjoyed the app. I'm sorry for jumping to conclusions and overreacting and ranting about it. My apologies for writing all the bullshit above and below.]
They mention it once... and cover a lot of other things. So while I agree with the linked threads, this doesn't really read as an ad for InFlow any more than it reads as an ad for CBT or Intuniv.
My impression.
My impression.
The author mentions it right after the introduction, with no criticism whatsoever, only praise. Unlike the rest of the piece which is more balanced. It certainly set the advertisement alarm bells ringing in my mind.
Hey there! I used inflow for like a year and liked it, but churned for now. I’ll probably use it again in the future though, it’s a good app. I have no affiliation with the founders aside from meeting them through YC, fwiw.
If it was an ad it wasn’t a very good one, lmao (it was not an ad)
If it was an ad it wasn’t a very good one, lmao (it was not an ad)
Well, that is how the best content marketing works. You make a good write-up of an area, then casually mention the product somewhere -- also needs to look natural. If author got paid it needs to be marked as sponsored in some jurisdictions.
I'd also guess that many with the condition have tried all the common treatment options and will zero in on the one thing new that the person saying they have the condition under control offers as new treatment option.
I'd also guess that many with the condition have tried all the common treatment options and will zero in on the one thing new that the person saying they have the condition under control offers as new treatment option.
As I’ve said elsewhere, this wasn’t a paid post, and I’m scrupulous about disclosing conflicts of interest when they do occur. Amusingly I’m an investor in two other ADHD related services, but didn’t mention either in the post :)
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I don’t really agree. The author mentions many books, methods, and apps and that just happens to be the first.
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Ty for the kind edit
Yeah, I switched off the moment I saw their first recommendation was a $50 a month app.
I feel like if the author actually uses the app daily, that’s a pretty strong endorsement.
I did like 40% of the content over the year I used it - it’s got some great stuff in it. I churned at the end of the year but I’ll probably pick it back up again soon; I definitely feel it was worth the price of admission (especially compared to like… a single session of therapy)
As I said elsethread, I have no connection or financial interest in inflow aside from having met them through YC and generally finding them to be nice folks. I’m actually extremely scrupulous about noting when I do have a conflict of interest like that, for what it’s worth!
As I said elsethread, I have no connection or financial interest in inflow aside from having met them through YC and generally finding them to be nice folks. I’m actually extremely scrupulous about noting when I do have a conflict of interest like that, for what it’s worth!
Can you give some details on the good parts?
To me it sounds like one of those ADHD self-management guru talks that try to apply something generic to an issue that's very personal and individual. Some solution that gets ADHD folks interested, hyperfocus on it as the next productivity solution, just to lose interest after 2-3 weeks and forget to cancel.
I want to believe that I understand my ADHD better than anyone else, and my warnings signals go off when I see things like that, because I can absolutely see myself getting hooked on a new productivity paradigm for a short while
To me it sounds like one of those ADHD self-management guru talks that try to apply something generic to an issue that's very personal and individual. Some solution that gets ADHD folks interested, hyperfocus on it as the next productivity solution, just to lose interest after 2-3 weeks and forget to cancel.
I want to believe that I understand my ADHD better than anyone else, and my warnings signals go off when I see things like that, because I can absolutely see myself getting hooked on a new productivity paradigm for a short while
The thing I found useful about it was it arranged a bunch of useful CBT content on a number of different ADHD coping skills into 5 minute chunks with 4-7 chunks per module/topic that I could listen to AND read along with (I also listen to audio books on 2x while staring at the kindle book, lol) while I emptied my dishwasher in the morning. I had a pretty good routine going with that for a while and did a dozen or maybe 20 of the modules? I can’t see the list since my sub expired, but I remember modules on relationships, organizing (that one sucked), anger management, emotions, overwhelm, and lots of other good stuff.
I found the content modules the most helpful; I joined their coworking sessions a few times and those were fun too. I found the sort of “task” things you’d get assigned in the modules less helpful as I’d just sign up for all of them and then do none of them lol. But the content itself was v good.
I found the content modules the most helpful; I joined their coworking sessions a few times and those were fun too. I found the sort of “task” things you’d get assigned in the modules less helpful as I’d just sign up for all of them and then do none of them lol. But the content itself was v good.
A little ironic, considering the site here versus: http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html
I saw the guy who founded kinkos speak at Babson business school about 20 years ago. Weirdly, he was there due to some sponsorship related to disabilities because he had ADHD.
He got up and in the first 30 seconds said he thought ADHD had helped him, didn’t think of it as a negative, and just came because he wanted to tell his story. Like so many founders (esp of retail businesses, I find), he was super charismatic and had a very practical, easy to understand model of the business. It was the best talk I saw in my brief time at babson, and I saw a bunch of good talks by founders.
I believe the guy who founded jet blue also has ADHD and feels similarly. Everyone has their own perspective, but if you get a chance to see the Kinkos founder speak, I recommend it (he might be pretty old by now).
He got up and in the first 30 seconds said he thought ADHD had helped him, didn’t think of it as a negative, and just came because he wanted to tell his story. Like so many founders (esp of retail businesses, I find), he was super charismatic and had a very practical, easy to understand model of the business. It was the best talk I saw in my brief time at babson, and I saw a bunch of good talks by founders.
I believe the guy who founded jet blue also has ADHD and feels similarly. Everyone has their own perspective, but if you get a chance to see the Kinkos founder speak, I recommend it (he might be pretty old by now).
> Weirdly, he was there due to some sponsorship related to disabilities because he had ADHD.
Can I ask why you find that weird? ADHD is, and is also comorbid with other learning disabilities.
ADHD has so many dimensions and interrelationships between those dimensions that everybody's lived experience is different. If you know one person with ADHD, then you know one person with ADHD, you don't know everyone with ADHD.
Heck my best friend growing up had severe ADHD, what used to be called "ring-of-fire". Both his parents are clinical experts in ADHD, and have been since he was young. Yet despite knowing me incredibly well over a couple of decades none of them suspected that I had it. To be fair, three psychiatrists and dozens of psychologists missed it too, until one had a hunch that finally led to me getting diagnosed in my late 30s.
Can I ask why you find that weird? ADHD is, and is also comorbid with other learning disabilities.
ADHD has so many dimensions and interrelationships between those dimensions that everybody's lived experience is different. If you know one person with ADHD, then you know one person with ADHD, you don't know everyone with ADHD.
Heck my best friend growing up had severe ADHD, what used to be called "ring-of-fire". Both his parents are clinical experts in ADHD, and have been since he was young. Yet despite knowing me incredibly well over a couple of decades none of them suspected that I had it. To be fair, three psychiatrists and dozens of psychologists missed it too, until one had a hunch that finally led to me getting diagnosed in my late 30s.
I feel the ADHD is a strength not weakness mentality is generally harmful. There are some aspects of it that can help, especially when you are not deep working on one thing, but in general, I think it is unequivocally not a benefit to almost anyone who has it.
edit: I would add there is some survivorship bias to it too. Successful CEO says ADHD helped? Huh. Cool. There is a reason alcoholism and substance abuse have significant overlap with ADHD communities. For example, I built and sold an infosec consulting firm and I have ADHD. I could tell you stories about how in some limited circumstances operating a business it helped. But that ignores all the times I struggled and had to dig deep into my well of ADHD management skills to stay focused and efficient on chores I don’t like doing.
edit: I would add there is some survivorship bias to it too. Successful CEO says ADHD helped? Huh. Cool. There is a reason alcoholism and substance abuse have significant overlap with ADHD communities. For example, I built and sold an infosec consulting firm and I have ADHD. I could tell you stories about how in some limited circumstances operating a business it helped. But that ignores all the times I struggled and had to dig deep into my well of ADHD management skills to stay focused and efficient on chores I don’t like doing.
I want to emphasize this opinion. There is definitely survivorship bias, and I dislike people calling it a 'superpower'.
Yes it can make you more reckless and impulsive to take risks like founding a company, but it's important to keep in mind that ADHD is a serious cognitive disability, and we should treat it as that. There is so much it messes with on a daily basis and it absolutely sucks.
So much coping, self-doubt, lack of motivation and drive, procrastination - it's not nice. Yes we get better in managing it over time as we learn about it, but it still comes back and bites us, and it's depressing to see coworkers being so much more organized and 'on top of things' compared to me, no matter how hard I try
Yes it can make you more reckless and impulsive to take risks like founding a company, but it's important to keep in mind that ADHD is a serious cognitive disability, and we should treat it as that. There is so much it messes with on a daily basis and it absolutely sucks.
So much coping, self-doubt, lack of motivation and drive, procrastination - it's not nice. Yes we get better in managing it over time as we learn about it, but it still comes back and bites us, and it's depressing to see coworkers being so much more organized and 'on top of things' compared to me, no matter how hard I try
> Yes it can make you more reckless and impulsive to take risks like founding a company, but it's important to keep in mind that ADHD is a serious cognitive disability, and we should treat it as that. There is so much it messes with on a daily basis and it absolutely sucks.
I think the r/ADHD approach on Reddit nails it: even if it did have benefits for you, please don't refer to it as a superpower because there's a lot of people who will feel even worse about their own experience of the disability when you do that.
And, yeah, for me it's been very much a double-edged sword. I started a consulting company while in grad school; it was awesome for my (undiagnosed at the time) ADHD brain: new projects every couple of months! Learn something new every time! Hell, I went to grad school very likely because of ADHD; I couldn't handle the stale "every day is more of the same" feeling I had in the regular working world. I went to study a hard problem, but about 16 months after I started really digging into it, commercial solutions started appearing that essentially did the same thing I was researching... I lost interest quickly, especially when all of the research was done and writing and editing my thesis was all that was left.
I've worked on so many wildly varied projects over the years. I've got an EE/CS dual degree, and I've been down at the schematic and PCB design level and up at the web & mobile app level. I'm just as comfortable writing Verilog as I am writing React code. Deep GNSS work and software-defined radio, 2D high resolution imaging, 3D depth field imaging, audio processing, ultra-low-power sensors, level-sensing in 80,000L fuel tanks using a clever pressure-sensing approach, drone flight planning and control algorithms, yadda yadda yadda. And all of those different things all are related to each other in some tangential ways that I pick up on right away while others just scratch their heads.
On the other hand, I lose things all the time, forget to pay bills for months, lose touch with people I care about, struggled for years and years to maintain a romantic relationship, forget my bag in the car and forget to lock it (that was an expensive mistake). I've spent a ton of money starting new hobbies only to lose interest. I have a multi-year backlog of projects I've started but not finished. My house is a disaster. I'm almost 40 and have almost nothing saved up for retirement.
I got lucky and made it through undergrad and a masters program. Hell, I got lucky and made it through high school... if my teachers had followed their own rules to the letter I probably wouldn't have, but they saw "my spark" and made enough concessions that I ended up, just barely, on the honour roll instead of failing out.
I had no insight into any of this being related to a disability until last year.
I think the r/ADHD approach on Reddit nails it: even if it did have benefits for you, please don't refer to it as a superpower because there's a lot of people who will feel even worse about their own experience of the disability when you do that.
And, yeah, for me it's been very much a double-edged sword. I started a consulting company while in grad school; it was awesome for my (undiagnosed at the time) ADHD brain: new projects every couple of months! Learn something new every time! Hell, I went to grad school very likely because of ADHD; I couldn't handle the stale "every day is more of the same" feeling I had in the regular working world. I went to study a hard problem, but about 16 months after I started really digging into it, commercial solutions started appearing that essentially did the same thing I was researching... I lost interest quickly, especially when all of the research was done and writing and editing my thesis was all that was left.
I've worked on so many wildly varied projects over the years. I've got an EE/CS dual degree, and I've been down at the schematic and PCB design level and up at the web & mobile app level. I'm just as comfortable writing Verilog as I am writing React code. Deep GNSS work and software-defined radio, 2D high resolution imaging, 3D depth field imaging, audio processing, ultra-low-power sensors, level-sensing in 80,000L fuel tanks using a clever pressure-sensing approach, drone flight planning and control algorithms, yadda yadda yadda. And all of those different things all are related to each other in some tangential ways that I pick up on right away while others just scratch their heads.
On the other hand, I lose things all the time, forget to pay bills for months, lose touch with people I care about, struggled for years and years to maintain a romantic relationship, forget my bag in the car and forget to lock it (that was an expensive mistake). I've spent a ton of money starting new hobbies only to lose interest. I have a multi-year backlog of projects I've started but not finished. My house is a disaster. I'm almost 40 and have almost nothing saved up for retirement.
I got lucky and made it through undergrad and a masters program. Hell, I got lucky and made it through high school... if my teachers had followed their own rules to the letter I probably wouldn't have, but they saw "my spark" and made enough concessions that I ended up, just barely, on the honour roll instead of failing out.
I had no insight into any of this being related to a disability until last year.
Thank goodness for auto pay on bills and a NT wife. I don’t know how she puts up with where my brain has ended up some years, but we have done great together as a family :)
Also, I totally get that picking up random links thing. I always found I could sort of link together certain kinds of concepts together really quickly. Never super deeply, but like, learning new programming languages, I could just dive in, look at code, and things would just click together pretty often. I also get having a disaster of a house, spending money on hobbies and losing interest <glares angrily at his very expensive mill and lathe he uses only occasionally>. Some of the time I read tech people’s ADHD experience and I feel so… understood. Like, are you me? You could be me.
Also, I totally get that picking up random links thing. I always found I could sort of link together certain kinds of concepts together really quickly. Never super deeply, but like, learning new programming languages, I could just dive in, look at code, and things would just click together pretty often. I also get having a disaster of a house, spending money on hobbies and losing interest <glares angrily at his very expensive mill and lathe he uses only occasionally>. Some of the time I read tech people’s ADHD experience and I feel so… understood. Like, are you me? You could be me.
> and a NT wife.
Partner and I have been together for 13 years now. She’s almost certainly on the ADHD spectrum but less severe than me. Things are great besides the fact that we both neglect a lot of stuff that NT folks don’t really struggle with.
But retrospectively, that’s one of the most interesting things for me. I think back to a lot of the previous relationships I had, and the vast majority of them failed due to conflict that I can now see was ADHD-induced. Impulse control and finances, house cleaning, new random hobby obsession, boredom, substance abuse… When I finally realized a year and a bit ago what ADHD actually was and how a lot of my behaviours weren’t typical, I had this very profound moment where it simultaneously felt like all the air was sucked out of the room and everything finally made sense.
Edit: > <glares angrily at his very expensive mill and lathe he uses only occasionally>.
I swear to god I’m going to get the mill running again this year.
Partner and I have been together for 13 years now. She’s almost certainly on the ADHD spectrum but less severe than me. Things are great besides the fact that we both neglect a lot of stuff that NT folks don’t really struggle with.
But retrospectively, that’s one of the most interesting things for me. I think back to a lot of the previous relationships I had, and the vast majority of them failed due to conflict that I can now see was ADHD-induced. Impulse control and finances, house cleaning, new random hobby obsession, boredom, substance abuse… When I finally realized a year and a bit ago what ADHD actually was and how a lot of my behaviours weren’t typical, I had this very profound moment where it simultaneously felt like all the air was sucked out of the room and everything finally made sense.
Edit: > <glares angrily at his very expensive mill and lathe he uses only occasionally>.
I swear to god I’m going to get the mill running again this year.
Good luck with the mill, heh. My wife is an almost perfect opposite to me. She is very patient, calm. I got super lucky. The only person I ever dated. She has an innate capacity for tolerating me. And my son, who is also deep with ADHD. She never judged me for all my bullshit over the years either. I think having kids younger was both terrible and great for me. It forces me to focus and take career seriously, but it was also really hard.
Meh. Lathe is small potatoes. Get a pdp-11/70.
Thanks for the yak shave! I’m out of empty slots in the breaker panel, and, well, a couple of the rooms have two-prong outlets with no ground… guess I need to rewire the whole house and install a new panel! And since we’ll have to cut into the drywall, may as well upgrade the insulation and vapour barrier while we’re in there.
While you're doing insulation and vapor barrier might as well replace all the windows too. Think of the efficiency gains!
Oh! Definitely! Good catch, thanks for the design review :D
> Some of the time I read tech people’s ADHD experience and I feel so… understood. Like, are you me? You could be me.
Exactly what I thought reading this post :D
Strangely enough, I applied at your firm and we have traded emails.
Exactly what I thought reading this post :D
Strangely enough, I applied at your firm and we have traded emails.
Oh yeah! You are in the area even. Last year that time was pretty crazy because we had just finished up our transaction. Small world some days :)
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i believe you might be me.
> I think it is unequivocally not a benefit to almost anyone who has it.
I wouldn’t even be capable of overstating the damage done to my life by it. Inattentive form is a curse in my personal experience, but of course I am one person and not all have such bad experiences.
The mentality can be harmful, for some of us there are no strengths and no benefits provided to us, just years of suffering and bad outcomes. Makes me feel worse about myself personally, but I’m glad for those who haven’t had the same issues.
I wouldn’t even be capable of overstating the damage done to my life by it. Inattentive form is a curse in my personal experience, but of course I am one person and not all have such bad experiences.
The mentality can be harmful, for some of us there are no strengths and no benefits provided to us, just years of suffering and bad outcomes. Makes me feel worse about myself personally, but I’m glad for those who haven’t had the same issues.
There's a lot of chicken and egg notions to it. Formative years controlled by this can generate certain personalities, so it's hard to disassociate who you are from the difficulties.
I think of it like driving a car with busted brakes. You might be able to learn how to cope with that, and maybe you end up being really good at drifting thanks to this! Suddenly you treat the underlying issue, fix your brakes, and it feels like you've lost some superpower. But really you still have these skills somewhere! And you objectively have more control, it's just that the there's going to be a learning curve to find this again as the feedback loop is different now.
I like being able to go all out in hyperfocus mode, but I also like being able to have some impulse control for when it's nice to have. After adjusting I think I can do both under treatment.
I think of it like driving a car with busted brakes. You might be able to learn how to cope with that, and maybe you end up being really good at drifting thanks to this! Suddenly you treat the underlying issue, fix your brakes, and it feels like you've lost some superpower. But really you still have these skills somewhere! And you objectively have more control, it's just that the there's going to be a learning curve to find this again as the feedback loop is different now.
I like being able to go all out in hyperfocus mode, but I also like being able to have some impulse control for when it's nice to have. After adjusting I think I can do both under treatment.
I generally agree with that. It should not be glamourized. I liken it to being like Cyclops in the X-Men. Sure you can shoot lasers out of your eyes, but you can never look upon the love of your life naturally and unfiltered.
That being said, some of most cherished achievements would not have been possible without it, and that's where the cognitive dissonance begins.
That being said, some of most cherished achievements would not have been possible without it, and that's where the cognitive dissonance begins.
I feel like I just don’t know. How can I? I can hyperfocus, get into flow, and crank through things that make hours and days and weeks fly by. I can also be deeep in the pit of distraction where it is impossible to start anything and I feel broken and the deeper I get the more I try to avoid doing even the smallest thing that might mean forward progress because everything is already so bad so just go and play some games or something anyway. Granted that was my early 20s and I learned to achieve balance and even now in my early 40s I can focus on demand but it took me a loooong time to get there and I think my approach to how I do that and the way I structure my life is different from a NT persons. And for most people that was their normal their whole life.
I very much relate to this. Sometimes challenging and complicated problems come apart easily. Sometimes you waste a week procrastinating something simple. Unfortunately my procrastination has been rewarded so many times. Of you've got a change in scope for the thing I haven't even started yet? No problem! Oh, our priorities have changed and we no longer need that thing? Fantastic! Most recently, I was supposed to be planning a vacation with another family. I procrastinated it long enough that circumstances changed and the other family had to cancel for unrelated reasons. That can be even more frustrating because I know it's just reinforcing those bad behaviors.
I am a fan of Jocko. He talks about that very thing with procrastination. You procrastinate so long the thing loses all importance. I notice I had a habit of conveniently only remembering the times it helped and not the significant amount more it hurt.
Agreed with you and responders here. I want to add, there's also change in life circumstances aspect to it.
Like, it's nice if you can use hyperfocus to do great things, that on the net outweigh the inability to handle "normal life" things like paying bills on time. Then you marry and start a family and at some point wake up realizing this new life is perfectly structured to prevent you from using the positive aspects of your brain, while exacerbating the negatives.
I've been thinking recently, how come all those blog posts and stories about success despite (or thanks to) ADHD come from people who are single?
Like, it's nice if you can use hyperfocus to do great things, that on the net outweigh the inability to handle "normal life" things like paying bills on time. Then you marry and start a family and at some point wake up realizing this new life is perfectly structured to prevent you from using the positive aspects of your brain, while exacerbating the negatives.
I've been thinking recently, how come all those blog posts and stories about success despite (or thanks to) ADHD come from people who are single?
This is exactly it. The person who resents me most for my disability is my wife. I don’t blame her, and I do my best to reign in my disability, but it’s not possible for me to function the way she wishes I could.
I put everything I’ve got into a) making sure I don’t get fired because I earn about 4x more than her, b) pour all the energy I can into my kids because I see how fast they’re growing up, and by that point, I’ve already disappointed her too much to repair things.
I’ve tried countless strategies to get around this, but the unfortunate truth is that I’m a nice person yet an awful partner. I have serious limitations that I wish I was aware of before I “trapped” her in this.
Rule one of ADHD: you probably lack a lot of self awareness and it can be genuinely awful for people you live with.
I put everything I’ve got into a) making sure I don’t get fired because I earn about 4x more than her, b) pour all the energy I can into my kids because I see how fast they’re growing up, and by that point, I’ve already disappointed her too much to repair things.
I’ve tried countless strategies to get around this, but the unfortunate truth is that I’m a nice person yet an awful partner. I have serious limitations that I wish I was aware of before I “trapped” her in this.
Rule one of ADHD: you probably lack a lot of self awareness and it can be genuinely awful for people you live with.
For what it’s worth, I get the impression that you’re being way too hard on yourself. Struggling in a relationship doesn’t mean you’re an awful partner. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and sometimes those react in relationships in unfortunate ways. It’s never just one person who is responsible.
It sounds like at the very least, you’re doing two extremely important things well: providing financially and being engaged as a father. Whatever your weaknesses might be, those are two huge strengths. Don’t sell yourself short on those.
It sounds like at the very least, you’re doing two extremely important things well: providing financially and being engaged as a father. Whatever your weaknesses might be, those are two huge strengths. Don’t sell yourself short on those.
Thank you. I try to remind myself that providing does matter, and focusing on being a dad is something I won’t get to do forever that could have a substantially positive impact on my kid’s lives.
If they’re things I do well and they make my family’s life better, it’s something, right?
I think the key sometimes is forgiving myself for not being everything for everyone. It sounds absurd when it’s written out like that, but is something I genuinely struggle with.
Thanks, thinking that through has actually helped me feel better about things.
If they’re things I do well and they make my family’s life better, it’s something, right?
I think the key sometimes is forgiving myself for not being everything for everyone. It sounds absurd when it’s written out like that, but is something I genuinely struggle with.
Thanks, thinking that through has actually helped me feel better about things.
Always be kind to yourself. You can be stern too. But always kind. ADHD can be a lot for some NT people and your wife has unreasonable expectations about what you are and aren’t capable of in a given day. Your partner seems like they try to understand you from a NT lens and that is bound to create a big disconnect. I know I have my relationship flaws but a little open understanding and empathy can bring two people so much closer in their shared view.
> Always be kind to yourself. You can be stern too. But always kind.
You’re right, and this is something I often forget to do.
You’re also right that my wife looks at things through a NT lens, and I often wonder if I wouldn’t too if I was NT. I don’t blame her at all, but it undoubtedly creates friction that seems unhelpful or unnecessary.
Thanks for the kind words and reminder to be kind.
You’re right, and this is something I often forget to do.
You’re also right that my wife looks at things through a NT lens, and I often wonder if I wouldn’t too if I was NT. I don’t blame her at all, but it undoubtedly creates friction that seems unhelpful or unnecessary.
Thanks for the kind words and reminder to be kind.
I feel for you, and I wish things to turn around for the better for you and your wife. Myself, I'm worried I'm 75% there. I.e. I'm also doing your a) and b), but we both still think the overall relationship is salvageable.
> I do my best to reign in my disability, but it’s not possible for me to function the way she wishes I could.
Same here, and my wife is also willing to adapt to my needs, but here's a thing: I can't always tell whether some adjustment is an actual need, or just some random guess I came up out of frustration. I also have a life-long habit of molding myself into the person the people need me to be, and couple with being diagnosed well into my 30s... things are improving, but it's kind of a random walk.
> Rule one of ADHD: you probably lack a lot of self awareness and it can be genuinely awful for people you live with.
I'm not the best person to judge this, but I think I actually do have quite a lot of self-awareness, so I hesitantly propose Rule 1A: if you do have a lot of self awareness, it's even worse, because you can see how awful it is for people you live with, and can't do a thing about it.
> I do my best to reign in my disability, but it’s not possible for me to function the way she wishes I could.
Same here, and my wife is also willing to adapt to my needs, but here's a thing: I can't always tell whether some adjustment is an actual need, or just some random guess I came up out of frustration. I also have a life-long habit of molding myself into the person the people need me to be, and couple with being diagnosed well into my 30s... things are improving, but it's kind of a random walk.
> Rule one of ADHD: you probably lack a lot of self awareness and it can be genuinely awful for people you live with.
I'm not the best person to judge this, but I think I actually do have quite a lot of self-awareness, so I hesitantly propose Rule 1A: if you do have a lot of self awareness, it's even worse, because you can see how awful it is for people you live with, and can't do a thing about it.
> here's a thing: I can't always tell whether some adjustment is an actual need
Yes! I struggle with this a lot. Despite talking about things and me putting genuine effort into making improvements, I continually seem to make changes which miss the mark. It’s as though we speak the same language with different meanings.
> life-long habit of molding myself
Likewise, and it’s not always crystal clear to me when I’m doing it, either. It’s becoming clearer over time, but even when I know, it isn’t trivial to just stop.
Similar to you, I wasn’t diagnosed until age 35 or so, and a lot of these habits and mannerisms are very deeply baked in.
> Rule 1A
I agree completely. I won’t claim to be a bastion of self awareness, but I will say that the awareness I do have is a major source of pain and frustration at times. Similar to the author in the article, I’ve come to see the inevitability of it all and I try to be frustrated less, and more accountable and constructive instead. It can be sort of paralyzing to dwell on it.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I hope you make progress on this too. We were diagnosed late, but there’s no reason we can’t gradually shift the tides and begin making steady improvements.
Yes! I struggle with this a lot. Despite talking about things and me putting genuine effort into making improvements, I continually seem to make changes which miss the mark. It’s as though we speak the same language with different meanings.
> life-long habit of molding myself
Likewise, and it’s not always crystal clear to me when I’m doing it, either. It’s becoming clearer over time, but even when I know, it isn’t trivial to just stop.
Similar to you, I wasn’t diagnosed until age 35 or so, and a lot of these habits and mannerisms are very deeply baked in.
> Rule 1A
I agree completely. I won’t claim to be a bastion of self awareness, but I will say that the awareness I do have is a major source of pain and frustration at times. Similar to the author in the article, I’ve come to see the inevitability of it all and I try to be frustrated less, and more accountable and constructive instead. It can be sort of paralyzing to dwell on it.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I hope you make progress on this too. We were diagnosed late, but there’s no reason we can’t gradually shift the tides and begin making steady improvements.
I agree, and think it also serves to negate any necessary accomodation you might otherwise get during the struggle to just do a standard job consistently.
"Oh, you struggle to show up 100% on time every day to the standup? I saw an article on the top of HN about a CEO that used it to his advantage, so what's your problem?"
"Oh, you struggle to show up 100% on time every day to the standup? I saw an article on the top of HN about a CEO that used it to his advantage, so what's your problem?"
I’m starting to think of it as just one of the many underlying pieces that make people different, and drive people different ways. Like how people with glasses actually are on average smarter. Or like how kids of older parents are more studious. I’ve variously read ADHD’s overrepresented in the sciences and immigrants, and shown to be adaptive in hunter gatherer groups but maladaptive in neighboring farming groups.
Everybody struggles. Typical people have different struggles. I’m not saying ADHD is equivalent, or easy, but it will invisibly bias people in a different direction with a different set of things that are easy. After all, as far as I understand, we believe the root is simply lower levels of dopamine which tunes you for discontent, alertness, loss aversion, disagreeableness, and so on. It makes it hard to be happy, but genes don’t care.
I rankle at the thought that genes could be quietly setting people up to be suited for different roles, but again genes don’t care.
Everybody struggles. Typical people have different struggles. I’m not saying ADHD is equivalent, or easy, but it will invisibly bias people in a different direction with a different set of things that are easy. After all, as far as I understand, we believe the root is simply lower levels of dopamine which tunes you for discontent, alertness, loss aversion, disagreeableness, and so on. It makes it hard to be happy, but genes don’t care.
I rankle at the thought that genes could be quietly setting people up to be suited for different roles, but again genes don’t care.
I guess if that stance is harmful then I'd think about why people are having that stance in the first place.
If somebody gets told "you have ADHD, a debilitating mental disorder", and then does well in life anyway, what exactly are they supposed to think happened? Why were we telling them they're messed up in the head when clearly they're quite functional? "Wow, maybe ADHD is good" seems like a pretty logical jump to me.
Mental health is an important topic, but it's still really wishy-washy. Sometimes I wonder how useful all these vague labels really are. I also got diagnosed with ADHD when I was an adolescent, and I almost feel like that diagnosis just made me do even worse at school. I'd be like "well I have ADHD so it's physically impossible for me to sit down and do algebra. might as well not even try."
If somebody gets told "you have ADHD, a debilitating mental disorder", and then does well in life anyway, what exactly are they supposed to think happened? Why were we telling them they're messed up in the head when clearly they're quite functional? "Wow, maybe ADHD is good" seems like a pretty logical jump to me.
Mental health is an important topic, but it's still really wishy-washy. Sometimes I wonder how useful all these vague labels really are. I also got diagnosed with ADHD when I was an adolescent, and I almost feel like that diagnosis just made me do even worse at school. I'd be like "well I have ADHD so it's physically impossible for me to sit down and do algebra. might as well not even try."
It’s also a little hard to call it a debilitating disorder if 10% of people have it. Pale skin puts you at risk of sunburn, but it’s not considered a skin disorder. Why? I’ll leave it to the reader.
As a pale person, I can fill everyone in: it's because I can wear clothing, and since it's a social norm, it's not debilitating in the slightest bit whatsoever.
Sun burns are a lot nicer than ADHD. I can manage my day with a sunburn. I can prevent sun burns. I can’t apply lotion to stop ADHD.
I agree, and I think it's more harmful coming from successful founders, as so many people naïvely look up to them to provide guidance.
It's even worse than their usual "if I can do it - and I certainly have, just look at how awesome I am - then you can do it" spiel about business success.
It's even worse than their usual "if I can do it - and I certainly have, just look at how awesome I am - then you can do it" spiel about business success.
100% ADHD also has a severity spectrum. And clusters of related things Most ADHD is similar at a high level, but some people have some aspects better or worse. And some people can barely function with it. Someone with some mild ADHD symptoms and patterns saying ADHD is not a big deal can be really harmful to people with more severe ADHD for obvious reasons.
Another reason I find that mentality harmful is because it treats ADHD as a separable “thing”, as if I could imagine what kind of person I’d be without it.
It’s fundamental to my cognition! It just is.
I find it a waste of time to try to assign “good” or “bad” labels to different parts of my lived experience.
That is why I dislike it being called a “superpower”. Not because it is “bad”, but because it is just is who I am.
It’s fundamental to my cognition! It just is.
I find it a waste of time to try to assign “good” or “bad” labels to different parts of my lived experience.
That is why I dislike it being called a “superpower”. Not because it is “bad”, but because it is just is who I am.
You might be right, but some of it is also mentally making the best of your situation. If you tell yourself the story that it has pluses and minuses, you might be happier and even more successful than if you tell yourself you lost a genetic lottery. You might feel lower-potential and that might work against you.
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Fair question. I think I used that word because at the beginning of the talk, the person who had organized the talk gave a five minute ibtro about how admirable it was that he was willing to acknowledge the difficulty of his ADHD, etc.
Then he stood up, was clearly having none of it, said he thought it was an advantage, and then gave a long talk with no reference to it.
I guess it was weird because he didn’t seem into that angle at all.
But he was a great speaker, really inspiring.
Edit: I wasn’t necessarily trying to advocate that his perspective was correct for anyone else, but just reporting that this is what happened as a matter of fact.
Then he stood up, was clearly having none of it, said he thought it was an advantage, and then gave a long talk with no reference to it.
I guess it was weird because he didn’t seem into that angle at all.
But he was a great speaker, really inspiring.
Edit: I wasn’t necessarily trying to advocate that his perspective was correct for anyone else, but just reporting that this is what happened as a matter of fact.
If 2 clinical experts, 3 psychiatrists and dozens of psychologists didn't think you had ADHD, but eventually one person did, how do you know with certainty you actually have it?
Before explaining it's important to note that even if it wasn't intended to be, comments such as this can be incredibly harmful, especially with people who are preparing too to get diagnosed, or who have recently been diagnosed. Doubting your diagnosis (or any mental health diagnosis) is an incredibly common and damaging thing for treatment. Please be mindful in avoiding activating that negative belief.
It's not that they didn't think I had it. It never occurred to them that it might be the problem, for several reasons. I presented very clearly suffering from MDD and general anxiety and have been medicated for that my entire adult life. But in fact the MDD and anxiety were just symptoms of living undiagnosed and trying to live as best I could with what worked for me.
It's not that they didn't think I had it. It never occurred to them that it might be the problem, for several reasons. I presented very clearly suffering from MDD and general anxiety and have been medicated for that my entire adult life. But in fact the MDD and anxiety were just symptoms of living undiagnosed and trying to live as best I could with what worked for me.
I'm objectively responding to an anonymous comment in an internet forum, with no knowledge whatsoever about your background, sex, gender, race, age, location, or anything about your mental condition. It would be impossible for me to diagnose you or to question such a diagnosis.
> comments such as this can be incredibly harmful
For anyone reading this exchange, ignoring, or going against, the opinion of 30+ mental health professionals can also potentially be harmful.
> comments such as this can be incredibly harmful
For anyone reading this exchange, ignoring, or going against, the opinion of 30+ mental health professionals can also potentially be harmful.
> For anyone reading his exchange, ignoring, or going against, the opinion of 30+ mental health professionals can also be harmful.
In defense of GP, I want to caveat with this: if you go to a random psychiatrist and tell them about your issues, it's quite likely you'll get evaluated for the "usual suspects", such as depression. A proper evaluation (not just initial diagnosis, but matching treatment and noticing effects) can easily take over a year, since medication used in depression treatment usually take a month to kick in, and you might need to go through several before finding one that works for you, if at all - while also dealing with some nasty side effects.
Now, imagine a person with ADHD staring this path. How likely is it they'll go through the process diligently for a year or more, until the doctor figures out something else is going on? What's more likely to happen is, the person will keep taking the meds for a while, then forget to schedule a visit before running out, run out, enter withdrawal, then be unable to schedule a visit, leave withdrawal few weeks later, and feel too ashamed to talk to that doctor again. So in a few months or more, they may go to another psychiatrist...
... who will want to re-examine them for depression just to be sure, starting the cycle anew.
I wasted a decade of my life on exactly this.
Hence my standing recommendation: if you suspect ADHD, find a psychiatrist who's actually specializing in adult ADHD (and not just has it on a list of things they can help you with). ADHD can often be diagnosed or ruled out in days to weeks; going to an ADHD specialist isn't about trying to "get your favored diagnosis" (if you feel worried about this, just be up-front with them) - it's about minimizing the chance they'll dismiss this as an option, as (from copious anecdotal evidence) most other psychiatrists do.
In defense of GP, I want to caveat with this: if you go to a random psychiatrist and tell them about your issues, it's quite likely you'll get evaluated for the "usual suspects", such as depression. A proper evaluation (not just initial diagnosis, but matching treatment and noticing effects) can easily take over a year, since medication used in depression treatment usually take a month to kick in, and you might need to go through several before finding one that works for you, if at all - while also dealing with some nasty side effects.
Now, imagine a person with ADHD staring this path. How likely is it they'll go through the process diligently for a year or more, until the doctor figures out something else is going on? What's more likely to happen is, the person will keep taking the meds for a while, then forget to schedule a visit before running out, run out, enter withdrawal, then be unable to schedule a visit, leave withdrawal few weeks later, and feel too ashamed to talk to that doctor again. So in a few months or more, they may go to another psychiatrist...
... who will want to re-examine them for depression just to be sure, starting the cycle anew.
I wasted a decade of my life on exactly this.
Hence my standing recommendation: if you suspect ADHD, find a psychiatrist who's actually specializing in adult ADHD (and not just has it on a list of things they can help you with). ADHD can often be diagnosed or ruled out in days to weeks; going to an ADHD specialist isn't about trying to "get your favored diagnosis" (if you feel worried about this, just be up-front with them) - it's about minimizing the chance they'll dismiss this as an option, as (from copious anecdotal evidence) most other psychiatrists do.
Everyone’s different. For me, ADHD is like being an RPG class with different “stances” or “modals”.
I can be energetic and fun and charming (allegedly) and very social, quick witted, a natural comedian. Or I can be quiet and focused and studious. But I can never be both at the same time. Concerta is what lets me pick.
I’ve never seen it as a disability because it is an advantage in so many ways. I’m just so thankful I get to control it.
I can be energetic and fun and charming (allegedly) and very social, quick witted, a natural comedian. Or I can be quiet and focused and studious. But I can never be both at the same time. Concerta is what lets me pick.
I’ve never seen it as a disability because it is an advantage in so many ways. I’m just so thankful I get to control it.
Hey, I'm in exactly the same place, including the specific drug. It sucks though how much volatility there can be day to day if I'm not totally on top of taking it early enough, or get a bad sleep. Today my day was frontloaded with meetings, and then I just needed to peace out for a bit and try to get back on track with programming... now. Do you struggle with that as well?
My boss truly doesn't seem to have a concept of some of these bits and I fear I might lose or have to leave my 7th job. There always comes a point where they want to micro manage things, and that just ruins everything.
My boss truly doesn't seem to have a concept of some of these bits and I fear I might lose or have to leave my 7th job. There always comes a point where they want to micro manage things, and that just ruins everything.
Hey! I struggle a lot with what I call mixed modal days. I try hard to combine all my meetings into a day and have days of quiet. Because when I’m on concerta, not only do I lose my charm and social skills that make me super comfortable in a room of C-levels, but it does the opposite. I’m jittery and nervous and second guess any time I’m about to open my mouth.
One thing that’s helped me with modal switches through the day is to remember to eat lunch even though my body is completely disinterested in food. And yeah, I try to take it at a consistent time.
One thing that’s helped me with modal switches through the day is to remember to eat lunch even though my body is completely disinterested in food. And yeah, I try to take it at a consistent time.
Have you tried the amphetamine line of medication? Lesser modal switches are why I prefer them
If your ADHD manifests in being quiet and focused vs very social as the extremes, then you got hit very mild
I think the punchline is that they can be "quiet and focused" when they take Methylphenidate and social/reckless/fun when they don't.
That was the problem for me before I was diagnosed and medicated. I wanted so badly to be able to be quite and focused, but it was practically impossible to do it through will. Sometimes I would get lucky and something would catch my interest (hyperfocus), but most of the time I was all over the damned place.
That was the problem for me before I was diagnosed and medicated. I wanted so badly to be able to be quite and focused, but it was practically impossible to do it through will. Sometimes I would get lucky and something would catch my interest (hyperfocus), but most of the time I was all over the damned place.
Right?! I take amphetamines to quiet down and focus. And it’s just the best, warmest feeling ever… being able to sit for literally hours and read or do work. Sometimes I weep, it’s so liberating. Like I honestly thought people who said they could read a book in a single day were just liars. But I did it once!!!
Know what you mean, I was astounded when I took my first dose. It was like the usual relentless mind-noise had switched itself off, and I could just get on with stuff.
It can feel like a super power at times. But it's one you cannot control. When I was in my teens and early twenties my area of interest happened to align with something which would turn into a very lucrative career. Software development. I couldn't get enough of it. I soaked things up like a sponge and was able to internalize so much that has stuck with me. But once I "figured out" programming, the interest dropped to almost zero. I love solving problems and learning things and there is no way in hell I could participate in most software development teams because the vast majority of programming is little more than typing out previously solved problems. There is no mystery to a CRUD API endpoint. The only time I jump into code these days is to help out with tricky bugs. Diving into an unfamiliar code base to solve a problem others aren't able to checks all of those puzzle solving and learning boxes which gets my attention going again.
I'm not sure about building a business with ADHD. I see that path as extremely difficult unless your super focus happens to align with what your building long enough to get to a point where you can make money off of it. That seems unlikely. Once you're running a successful business, I believe coping with ADHD would be significantly easier. A CEO can delegate the things they are worst at to focus on the thing they are best at and which deliver the most value. The vast majority of individual contributors don't have that option.
ADHD keeps me on the move and has given me a very broad skill set and understanding of many different industries. I've worked in health care with medical devices to building interactive kiosks to writing device firmware to applying AI to livestock management to insurance and banking modernization. In that sense it's a super power. But I still cannot build myself a personal website or blog despite wanting to because that shit is really hard for me.
This doesn't even touch on the damage ADHD can do to relationships. I had a very difficult time connecting with my children when they were babies and toddlers because, let's be honest, they are boring most of the time. This became significantly easier as they got older and we were able to start actually having conversations. There are also times where my inattentiveness gets to the point where I literally cannot pay attention to what my wife is saying. It's a struggle to try to separate my brain from what it's trying to pay attention to and redirect it to her. When I don't see people they basically stop existing. I have no relationship with my parents or siblings and almost no long term friendships because of this. It's extremely easy for me to get disconnected.
I'm not sure about building a business with ADHD. I see that path as extremely difficult unless your super focus happens to align with what your building long enough to get to a point where you can make money off of it. That seems unlikely. Once you're running a successful business, I believe coping with ADHD would be significantly easier. A CEO can delegate the things they are worst at to focus on the thing they are best at and which deliver the most value. The vast majority of individual contributors don't have that option.
ADHD keeps me on the move and has given me a very broad skill set and understanding of many different industries. I've worked in health care with medical devices to building interactive kiosks to writing device firmware to applying AI to livestock management to insurance and banking modernization. In that sense it's a super power. But I still cannot build myself a personal website or blog despite wanting to because that shit is really hard for me.
This doesn't even touch on the damage ADHD can do to relationships. I had a very difficult time connecting with my children when they were babies and toddlers because, let's be honest, they are boring most of the time. This became significantly easier as they got older and we were able to start actually having conversations. There are also times where my inattentiveness gets to the point where I literally cannot pay attention to what my wife is saying. It's a struggle to try to separate my brain from what it's trying to pay attention to and redirect it to her. When I don't see people they basically stop existing. I have no relationship with my parents or siblings and almost no long term friendships because of this. It's extremely easy for me to get disconnected.
Apart from the kids piece (none yet), your experience matches mine to the T.
I've found that management has left me in a better place of balance. Less hyperfocus (on the occasions it can be useful), but also better able to do the long term day to day because things are a bit more dynamic. Not without many challenges, especially in a world with more remote work. The combination of Zoom and Slack is devastating for my attention. Though slack reminders keep me tied together in more ways than one, too.
Will say that I recently went for rediagnosis to see if meds can help. Low dose, short duration meds have been pretty great for me since. Don't feel the need to take them daily, but having it as an option to achieve a normal executive function is something I should have done a lot sooner.
I've found that management has left me in a better place of balance. Less hyperfocus (on the occasions it can be useful), but also better able to do the long term day to day because things are a bit more dynamic. Not without many challenges, especially in a world with more remote work. The combination of Zoom and Slack is devastating for my attention. Though slack reminders keep me tied together in more ways than one, too.
Will say that I recently went for rediagnosis to see if meds can help. Low dose, short duration meds have been pretty great for me since. Don't feel the need to take them daily, but having it as an option to achieve a normal executive function is something I should have done a lot sooner.
I don’t think referring to it outright as a strength is a useful thing. It has negative and positive consequences, and the impacts on your life depend upon a huge number of factors.
I actually took a class he taught in college. Every Wednesday night we'd meet at the university club for dinner and he'd "teach". It was wildly entertaining, although I'm not sure how much I learned tbh.
He did get in trouble with the school for buying us all booze once, which was pretty hilarious.
He did get in trouble with the school for buying us all booze once, which was pretty hilarious.
I've been diagnosed last year, at 34, and my life has started making so much more sense.
Wish I got diagnosed earlier — getting a mathematics PhD with untreated ADHD was double plus ungood.
I didn't know anything about ADHD, and was sure I don't have it because it's described as "deficit of attention" (spoiler: it's not).
I realized I need to look into it after relating to one too many ADHD memes.
In the aftermath, I have written an ADHD Meme Wiki[1], which helped me (and several other people!) get diagnosed and understand ADHD better:
[1] https://romankogan.net/adhd
Wish I got diagnosed earlier — getting a mathematics PhD with untreated ADHD was double plus ungood.
I didn't know anything about ADHD, and was sure I don't have it because it's described as "deficit of attention" (spoiler: it's not).
I realized I need to look into it after relating to one too many ADHD memes.
In the aftermath, I have written an ADHD Meme Wiki[1], which helped me (and several other people!) get diagnosed and understand ADHD better:
[1] https://romankogan.net/adhd
Having just finished (sort of) a PhD in computer science, very similar experience. I actually had to take a three month break, and nearly a second one, in the process because it was so easy to get distracted, overwhelmed and undersupported.
OH my god. This now all makes perfect sense. Thank you so much.
I'm not sure if i have ADHD, I seem to come up pretty high for Symptons, but I don't want to play doctor on the internet, i'm also in the UK and as an adult I understand it's very difficult to get a diagnosis.
I'm also not sure if it's caused by something else. I just really struggle to function and it's a killer. I have lots of projects and life improvement things I want to do, but I wake up and i'm like ughh, I can't concentrate, my brain is very foggy, I have a lack of energy, it's a nightmare and i'm no longer sure what to do about it.
I think my issues might be more related to brain fog, which does come and go, but there isn't a clear trigger and even when it 'goes' i'm never clear at all, it's just a little easier to function, I get a lot of small dull headaches, I struggle to think or concentrate, i'm confused often, my energy struggles, I feel blah about most things and just urgghh...
Lots of empathy for people going through this, as i'm sure others just think you are useless or dumb, when I know i'm trying really hard to be the opposite because those things really matter to me.
I'm also not sure if it's caused by something else. I just really struggle to function and it's a killer. I have lots of projects and life improvement things I want to do, but I wake up and i'm like ughh, I can't concentrate, my brain is very foggy, I have a lack of energy, it's a nightmare and i'm no longer sure what to do about it.
I think my issues might be more related to brain fog, which does come and go, but there isn't a clear trigger and even when it 'goes' i'm never clear at all, it's just a little easier to function, I get a lot of small dull headaches, I struggle to think or concentrate, i'm confused often, my energy struggles, I feel blah about most things and just urgghh...
Lots of empathy for people going through this, as i'm sure others just think you are useless or dumb, when I know i'm trying really hard to be the opposite because those things really matter to me.
I was pretty much exactly like you describe yourself here, for most of my life. I vented about it on HN occasionally for years, and every now and then, someone would suggest, "this smells of ADHD; get yourself checked out". So, at 32, I did, got a positive diagnosis, and my life finally started to have a noticeable upward trajectory. One of the major changes was that, for the first time, I could feel I'm actually capable of holding a job and supporting a family. That alone alleviated some serious emotional misery.
So, in the spirit of "pay it forward": this smells like ADHD; go and get yourself checked out if you can. It may be nothing. But it may be something, and if it is something - ADHD or not - an array of new options will open up for you.
Personal tip: if you do decide to get checked out, try and find an adult ADHD specialist. A random psychiatrist will likely first try to evaluate you for depression or some generic anxiety disorder, and you can waste a decade on it with little to show for it (guess how I know). ADHD is much faster to rule out (or in) than either of those.
So, in the spirit of "pay it forward": this smells like ADHD; go and get yourself checked out if you can. It may be nothing. But it may be something, and if it is something - ADHD or not - an array of new options will open up for you.
Personal tip: if you do decide to get checked out, try and find an adult ADHD specialist. A random psychiatrist will likely first try to evaluate you for depression or some generic anxiety disorder, and you can waste a decade on it with little to show for it (guess how I know). ADHD is much faster to rule out (or in) than either of those.
I'm in Ireland, but have recently been diagnosed by a UK doctor as having ADHD. If you go privately, it's not a terrible process, and my local GP is willing to prescribe as my UK ADHD expert advises. Granted, medication has had no positive impact on me so far, but getting the diagnosis was pretty straightforward.
Have you tried recently? It was only a couple months wait on NHS when I did it.
I know, "only", but seeing as it had been 32 years at that point it wasn't a major wait. 2 months is good for the NHS and mental health haha.
Diagnosis itself once I'd got through the wait took about 2 hours in total across 2 weekly meetings.
I know, "only", but seeing as it had been 32 years at that point it wasn't a major wait. 2 months is good for the NHS and mental health haha.
Diagnosis itself once I'd got through the wait took about 2 hours in total across 2 weekly meetings.
How does it even work? I barely go to the doctors, do I just ask them for an ADHD assessment?
That's how I did it yeah, went to my GP and said I suspected I may have ADHD and asked where to go with it from there. They referred me to the clinic that handles mental health in my town
It's worth talking with a psych. I'm in UK as well, email's in my profile, I can give you some pointers. (Diagnosed 1 year ago)
Regarding meds, are people willing to share what kind of doses they are on? I take 27mg of Concerta, and I remember talking to someone taking like... 5x that? And being quite shocked, but there's always that curiosity about what dosages makes sense.
I'm also on Concerta, taking 45mg. I started at 27 which was too low for me and went up to 54 which was too high; so we came down to 45 which seems to be a Goldie locks for me (they don't make a 45mg pill so I take an 18 and a 27). I also take 150mg Wellbutrin for depression and balance it all off with a nightly 300mg of Gabapentin to help me sleep (coincidentally my cat is prescribed the same amount of gaba to take before the vet because she's a terror on her check ups).
This is all is relatively new for me (got diagnosed this year after being misdiagnosed with depression for a very long time) and it's working out OK. One thing I'm still struggling with is break days. They seem to supercharge my (inattentive) ADHD, and I'm kind of dead all day long; maybe there's still room for adjustment and I go back to 36mg Concerta.
This is all is relatively new for me (got diagnosed this year after being misdiagnosed with depression for a very long time) and it's working out OK. One thing I'm still struggling with is break days. They seem to supercharge my (inattentive) ADHD, and I'm kind of dead all day long; maybe there's still room for adjustment and I go back to 36mg Concerta.
TBH given that part of my ADHD treatment is about social aspects, break days have never really seemed like a good idea to me. Everyone is different of course but executive function is nice to have off the clock as well IMO.
Yeah, while I get the idea of break days, I honestly prefer to take them during work week instead of weekends, because it kind of makes no sense to shortcharge yourself on the time you have for your family and for actually moving your life forward.
I imagine the "weekend break", like a lot of ADHD advice, comes from treatment of children and teenagers, which - for better or worse - tends to focus on school performance, to the exclusion of all else. I mean, every now and then I see an adult ADHD article talking about med breaks and mentioning both weekend breaks and summer vacation breaks. It's kind of a tell.
I imagine the "weekend break", like a lot of ADHD advice, comes from treatment of children and teenagers, which - for better or worse - tends to focus on school performance, to the exclusion of all else. I mean, every now and then I see an adult ADHD article talking about med breaks and mentioning both weekend breaks and summer vacation breaks. It's kind of a tell.
Your experience is so close to mine!
I’m on 15 mg Adderall XR - Tried 20 but it was too much. I’ll sometimes take 10 mg short release as well. 500 mg Gabapentin (100 mg for cat), and 150 mg Prozac.
I’m on 15 mg Adderall XR - Tried 20 but it was too much. I’ll sometimes take 10 mg short release as well. 500 mg Gabapentin (100 mg for cat), and 150 mg Prozac.
For any given day I have a choice of 70mg Ritalin (as three evenly spaced doses), or 70mg Vyvanse. They're differentiated by my response. Which I take depends on what working pattern I intend for that day. Vyvanse if I want to focus on a single task (especially coding or writing), or for social days; Ritalin when planning to churn through a to-do list or have a bunch of calls/meetings.
Disclaimer: this is personal anecdote, not a recommendation.
Disclaimer: this is personal anecdote, not a recommendation.
I'm on 36 mg of Concerta. I've spent a lot of time trying to find the right dose in the beginning, now have settled for this dose. Tbh it has been a huge positive change in my ability to get things done professionally without having to cope by spending my nights/weekends working as well. It's also remarkable how it curbs impulsive behavior for me.
18mg of methylphenidate (generic brands).
I've been very lucky to have such a positive response to such a low dose, as it's helped me tremendously with only the mildest of side effects (occasional high pulse, sore jaw).
Higher doses do nothing but increase my heart rate.
I've been very lucky to have such a positive response to such a low dose, as it's helped me tremendously with only the mildest of side effects (occasional high pulse, sore jaw).
Higher doses do nothing but increase my heart rate.
After first diagnosis, under the care of a psychiatrist, I went though a typical escalation over a couple years to reach 80 mg Vyvanse + 15 mg of Dexedrine per day. 50 + 10 at ~5AM and 30 + 5 at ~noon. That's about 40 mg of dextroamphetamine per day. I enjoyed the euphoria but never experienced dependence except in the sense that I became attached to functioning like my neurotypical colleagues. My psychiatrist's professional opinion was that some people required fairly high doses and the therapeutic benefit at those doses would stabilize long-term. I will note that he was reasonably diligent in ongoing blood tests and monitoring my health, etc.
A combination of factors made me decide to stop taking Vyvanse: a probably unrelated health issue, 40 mg of dextroamphetamine per day gave me unpleasant physical side effects, and my realization that 5 years of medication had profoundly hanged my habits and self-concept. I decided to see if I could go off meds and sustain the benefits. So I tapered off (no dependence!) and for 6 years I relied on habits, strategies, exercise, nutrition, healthy sleep and meditation.
But I am now taking Vyvanse again and there is no doubt in my mind now that no amount healthy living can do what Vyvanse does.
My current dosing: on a day to day basis, I take 0, 15, 30 or 45 mg of Vyvanse depending on what I need to get done, my energy level, and my habituation. I drink coffee with it because I find that caffeine helps me keep the Vyvanse dose lower. I organize my life to maximize the value of my medicated time. I experience a clear step function in executive functioning between "slightly too little" and "enough" Vyvanse and I can feel the gears shift in my head, takes about 5 seconds, as the drug concentration in my body crosses the threshold. I move the dose up and down in 15 mg steps and when reducing my dose I spend 2-3 days at each level to avoid crashing. I take Vyvanse holidays two to six weeks long, two or three times a year to reset my habituation and fix any sleep deficit. After a holiday I get the full therapeutic effect from 15 mg. My goal is to generate enough high-quality executive function hours to fulfil my responsibilities, but keep my dose as low as possible. It seems to be working so far.
A combination of factors made me decide to stop taking Vyvanse: a probably unrelated health issue, 40 mg of dextroamphetamine per day gave me unpleasant physical side effects, and my realization that 5 years of medication had profoundly hanged my habits and self-concept. I decided to see if I could go off meds and sustain the benefits. So I tapered off (no dependence!) and for 6 years I relied on habits, strategies, exercise, nutrition, healthy sleep and meditation.
But I am now taking Vyvanse again and there is no doubt in my mind now that no amount healthy living can do what Vyvanse does.
My current dosing: on a day to day basis, I take 0, 15, 30 or 45 mg of Vyvanse depending on what I need to get done, my energy level, and my habituation. I drink coffee with it because I find that caffeine helps me keep the Vyvanse dose lower. I organize my life to maximize the value of my medicated time. I experience a clear step function in executive functioning between "slightly too little" and "enough" Vyvanse and I can feel the gears shift in my head, takes about 5 seconds, as the drug concentration in my body crosses the threshold. I move the dose up and down in 15 mg steps and when reducing my dose I spend 2-3 days at each level to avoid crashing. I take Vyvanse holidays two to six weeks long, two or three times a year to reset my habituation and fix any sleep deficit. After a holiday I get the full therapeutic effect from 15 mg. My goal is to generate enough high-quality executive function hours to fulfil my responsibilities, but keep my dose as low as possible. It seems to be working so far.
I just got diagnosed this year in my mid-thirties and have ramped up to 80mg Ritalin (methylphenidate), which I take all at once in the morning. I also tried 70mg of aduvanz (lisdexamfetamine).
These are the maximum doses where I live, and to be honest, I've not noticed too much of anything from either. If anyone has any experience/literature on what makes medication work/what determines the required dose for an individual, I'd appreciate it.
The most helpful thing I've tried is meditation, which doesn't really alleviate any symptoms, but it has enabled me to accept and be self compassionate and grateful for the life I have.
These are the maximum doses where I live, and to be honest, I've not noticed too much of anything from either. If anyone has any experience/literature on what makes medication work/what determines the required dose for an individual, I'd appreciate it.
The most helpful thing I've tried is meditation, which doesn't really alleviate any symptoms, but it has enabled me to accept and be self compassionate and grateful for the life I have.
Is it CR / XR or IR? I'm on total of 60mg/day IR taken in 10mg doses throughout the day. I've briefly tried CR, but it had zero effect on me until some absurd doses (like 40-50mg CR taken almost at once), when it turned into debilitating headache, so I'm back on IR now, because that works on me and is easy to adjust on demand.
In general, AFAIK, there is no rule. The best type of medication and minimum effective dose seems to simply be an individual thing. Fortunately, unlike with e.g. SSRIs, it can be homed in on quite fast - the limiting factor is how quickly can you get your doctor to switch things up and write you new prescriptions.
In general, AFAIK, there is no rule. The best type of medication and minimum effective dose seems to simply be an individual thing. Fortunately, unlike with e.g. SSRIs, it can be homed in on quite fast - the limiting factor is how quickly can you get your doctor to switch things up and write you new prescriptions.
I believe it is like XR but it’s not marketed that way in my country. Aduvanz is supposedly very slow release. I’m on the max allowed for now. Maybe I can try something different in a while. At least there aren’t any side effects either.
ADD with 25mg of Imipramine.
Turns out noradrenaline was the problem in my case and my psychiatrist did try this first.
Not stimulant but make a difference like day and night for me.
20mg lisdexamphetamine at 8:30am, and 20mg at 1:00pm. Last until 7pm, little side effects, works great, but after dinner my energy and motivation is exhausted. I guess that's the price to pay for a life I am genuinely proud about.
27mg of Concerta, just the same. I haven't tried going higher, but perhaps I'd be curious about it. Suppose I could just take 1.5 pills one day and see how that goes. Started at 15mg I think, and it's the only type I've tried.
40mg Atomoxetine, down from 80mg as I lost weight. It's a non-stimulant med, and it's secondary effect is being an anti-depressant. Affects appetite & sexual drive.
Many people here write about trying or hoping to be normal. Do you realize how man founders and extraordinary people have or had ADHD?
How about not getting normal, but finding a life/work that fits to you and your lifestyle.
How about not getting normal, but finding a life/work that fits to you and your lifestyle.
The "be successful without becoming normal" idea possessed me for many years, and for me it was a trap because a significant portion of my abnormalities were genuinely pathological, and I thought they were me instead of just bad and unhealthy habits.
I thought I had to be genuinely inspired to get work done, and chased that fleeting motivation like a mirage for years instead of just learning how to sit down and work.
I thought my sleep was just "different" and my physical and mental health (not to mention productivity) suffered horribly and pointlessly for years until I put my foot down and... just fixed it.
Since fixing my sleep, for example, my productivity went from about 2 hours a day (of solid, focused work) to over 10 hours a day. In the span of ten days. That's not a bad exchange rate for a bit of normalcy, is it?
I thought I had to be genuinely inspired to get work done, and chased that fleeting motivation like a mirage for years instead of just learning how to sit down and work.
I thought my sleep was just "different" and my physical and mental health (not to mention productivity) suffered horribly and pointlessly for years until I put my foot down and... just fixed it.
Since fixing my sleep, for example, my productivity went from about 2 hours a day (of solid, focused work) to over 10 hours a day. In the span of ten days. That's not a bad exchange rate for a bit of normalcy, is it?
I can't speak for others but "normal" in the context of this discussion is not a reference to character and behavioral norms, but to productivity and in particular, the ability to complete tasks at a similar rate to non-medicated, non-ADHD people.
FWIW I have no interest in being “normal” but am highly motivated to be “functional” :)
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Medication really helped me, and combined with (zazen) meditation I have days where I feel like 'normal' people.
Working up to meditating for ~30 minute sessions (alone or in groups) forced me to face my worst nightmare: sitting still against my will.
Gradually, the physical burning sensation to 'escape' the mental torture of doing nothing calmed down. Further into my practice, the same happened for the monkey mind constantly thinking about shiny things. On good days I can attend long meetings and not lose it, remember chores, calm the chatter in my head, avoid playing mind games to keep myself occupied (eg. "can I cross the road in less than 5, 4, 3, 2 ...").
Medication helped to bump me over to the other side, and meditation has helped me stay there.
Working up to meditating for ~30 minute sessions (alone or in groups) forced me to face my worst nightmare: sitting still against my will.
Gradually, the physical burning sensation to 'escape' the mental torture of doing nothing calmed down. Further into my practice, the same happened for the monkey mind constantly thinking about shiny things. On good days I can attend long meetings and not lose it, remember chores, calm the chatter in my head, avoid playing mind games to keep myself occupied (eg. "can I cross the road in less than 5, 4, 3, 2 ...").
Medication helped to bump me over to the other side, and meditation has helped me stay there.
Meditation + medication is such a great combo; so many people with ADHD get burned trying to meditate unmedicated and find it miserable. A friend wrote a great twitter thread about meditation+ADHD a couple years back: https://twitter.com/ryanwheff/status/1181339754798780416
I was diagnosed with ADD about two years ago and started taking meds.
A couple of weeks ago I found something which allowed me to stop taking meds - I started running. I did not expect this to help with my ADD, but my head is so much clearer and focused since I started to run, it's crazy.
A couple of weeks ago I found something which allowed me to stop taking meds - I started running. I did not expect this to help with my ADD, but my head is so much clearer and focused since I started to run, it's crazy.
ADD here too with severe tics and anxiety. This resonates with me to some extent.
Physical workout does wonders for your mentality while also making your body healthier.
I am on Aduvanz (Adderall equivalent) and it lifts me up an extra notch, or at least; is a good alternative when time is sparse. But being active is the single most important thing every person can do.
I hope doctors will push harder on exercising in the future as we see more and more "cures" in the form of pills in circulation nowadays which, in many cases; could be fixed by a little change in lifestyle.
This especially goes for people fighting obesity, insomnia and anxiety. Start using your body and your body will start healing - and your mind will too. All that with the added benefit of (if any) zero side-effects.
I am on Aduvanz (Adderall equivalent) and it lifts me up an extra notch, or at least; is a good alternative when time is sparse. But being active is the single most important thing every person can do.
I hope doctors will push harder on exercising in the future as we see more and more "cures" in the form of pills in circulation nowadays which, in many cases; could be fixed by a little change in lifestyle.
This especially goes for people fighting obesity, insomnia and anxiety. Start using your body and your body will start healing - and your mind will too. All that with the added benefit of (if any) zero side-effects.
> ADD here too with severe tics and anxiety
Then it makes sense that I manage to get by without meds and "just" sports. My case is not as severe as yours, in a way I needed the meds to be compatible with a corporate IT job, without them the stress and responsibilities made me really anxious etc. But the last three weeks since I started running have been surprisingly zen to handle, even though I quit the meds cold turkey.
> I hope doctors will push harder on exercising in the future
Definitely, yes.
Then it makes sense that I manage to get by without meds and "just" sports. My case is not as severe as yours, in a way I needed the meds to be compatible with a corporate IT job, without them the stress and responsibilities made me really anxious etc. But the last three weeks since I started running have been surprisingly zen to handle, even though I quit the meds cold turkey.
> I hope doctors will push harder on exercising in the future
Definitely, yes.
My experience is really similar. When my physical health is good my ADD symptoms are barely noticeable. Medication can however be useful to get your life in order, to be able to carve out time for physical exercise and set up other healthy habits (meditation, journaling, task management system, time blocking etc).
Exercise helps with releasing neurotransmitters like meds do. It’s a known effect, and was recommended to me when I started meds.
It works unreasonably well.
However, different people need both different meds, and different dosages, so it’s not a substitute for everyone.
Genuinely glad it’s working for you, meds are one less thing you need to manage.
It works unreasonably well.
However, different people need both different meds, and different dosages, so it’s not a substitute for everyone.
Genuinely glad it’s working for you, meds are one less thing you need to manage.
I have this question which comes up in my mind every time I read about ADHD in tech (here, Twitter, blogs etc), which is really genuine and with no second intentions: my feeling is that ADHD seems over represented in tech, but I don't know if it's because ADHD is more invisible in life outside tech jobs, or because people with AHDH in tech are "louder", or because there is a relationship between ADHD and being good at software engineering, or if it's an American thing (I'm European), or what else?
I know the topic might be delicate, but I would really like to understand better.
I know the topic might be delicate, but I would really like to understand better.
> my feeling is that ADHD seems over represented in tech
We are overrepresented in tech, relative to the general population.
In the most recent StackOverflow developer survey, respondents self-reported at a rate about double the global average.
> but I don't know if it's because ADHD is more invisible in life outside tech jobs
You almost certainly know or have met people in other industries with ADHD and didn’t know it. Masking is an unfortunate survival skill for most. It’s mentally taxing, and can take hours to recover from after doing it for a day.
There used to be a thought that people grew out of it as they got older. They don’t, they just get really good at masking anything that might indicate they have it.
We’re seeing an increase in adults with ADHD, not because more people now have it. They had it all along (by definition, ADHD is symptomatically present before 12).
> or because there is a relationship between ADHD and being good at software engineering
Software engineering has some of the fastest feedback loops of any creative endeavour, and that really helps keep ADHD brains on task. But I don’t think there’s a relationship between the two, other than people with ADHD have a tendency to go really deep on things they’re interested in—and then subsequently drop it and move on to the next thing.
Software always has a next thing.
People with ADHD thrive on novelty and external consequences.
Agile software teams, infra/ops roles provide both. See also fighter pilots, firefighters, ER nurses, as well as outdoor jobs like landscaping (exercise is very good for ADHD brains).
We also really hate being told what to do, but will gladly solve a hard problem given the opportunity. Software enables that in a way many other jobs don’t.
> I know the topic might be delicate, but I would really like to understand better.
I really hope it’s not a delicate topic. Our brains work differently, but with some accomodations we can fit well into a team. I think there’s a very complimentary overlap with teams composed of neurodivergent and neurotypical people.
We are overrepresented in tech, relative to the general population.
In the most recent StackOverflow developer survey, respondents self-reported at a rate about double the global average.
> but I don't know if it's because ADHD is more invisible in life outside tech jobs
You almost certainly know or have met people in other industries with ADHD and didn’t know it. Masking is an unfortunate survival skill for most. It’s mentally taxing, and can take hours to recover from after doing it for a day.
There used to be a thought that people grew out of it as they got older. They don’t, they just get really good at masking anything that might indicate they have it.
We’re seeing an increase in adults with ADHD, not because more people now have it. They had it all along (by definition, ADHD is symptomatically present before 12).
> or because there is a relationship between ADHD and being good at software engineering
Software engineering has some of the fastest feedback loops of any creative endeavour, and that really helps keep ADHD brains on task. But I don’t think there’s a relationship between the two, other than people with ADHD have a tendency to go really deep on things they’re interested in—and then subsequently drop it and move on to the next thing.
Software always has a next thing.
People with ADHD thrive on novelty and external consequences.
Agile software teams, infra/ops roles provide both. See also fighter pilots, firefighters, ER nurses, as well as outdoor jobs like landscaping (exercise is very good for ADHD brains).
We also really hate being told what to do, but will gladly solve a hard problem given the opportunity. Software enables that in a way many other jobs don’t.
> I know the topic might be delicate, but I would really like to understand better.
I really hope it’s not a delicate topic. Our brains work differently, but with some accomodations we can fit well into a team. I think there’s a very complimentary overlap with teams composed of neurodivergent and neurotypical people.
There might also be a relationship between those quotes about great software engineers being lazy and ADHD often looking like laziness from the outside...
Thank you very much for your answer!
Maybe not just tech, but areas in tech where people are pushed to their limits.
I was a sysadmin for a decade before I landed a role that pushed me so hard that cracks started to appear.
I was a sysadmin for a decade before I landed a role that pushed me so hard that cracks started to appear.
In America there are people with legit ADHD, but for the rest: you need the diagnosis to get the meds, and you need the meds to get jobs.
The 2x deep linked article here is pretty spot on:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33635291
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33635291
That article is incredible, highly recommend the read (even if it took me numerous attempts to finish it as it’s hella long)
I tried signing up for Inflow, but noped out when it asked to fill out survey questions and supply an email address.
Same. It's like it was designed specifically to make it hard for ADHDers to sign up. Little information about the service or what I'm signing up for or what it costs, the "get started" button opens a new tab on a different site, etc.
I bookmarked it with the intention to go back. However, I know realistically I won't.
I bookmarked it with the intention to go back. However, I know realistically I won't.
It's a weirdly designed funnel. I somehow ended up going through part of it twice (second time in the app). I have email scolding me for attempting to sign up with an address that already had an account.
Not the craziest designed-by-marketing thing I've seen, but up there. But hey, it's not like I'm looking to them for UX advice.
Not the craziest designed-by-marketing thing I've seen, but up there. But hey, it's not like I'm looking to them for UX advice.
What happens at the end of it funnel? What exactly is the app? And how much is it?
$47.99/month or $199.99/year - at the end of the (rather long) funnel with marketing spiel sprinkled in between, it asks for you to enter your card details to start your 7 day free trial.
How do you expect to go about the modern internet without supplying an email address to sign up for something?
It's more than that...
It's not even clear what you are signing up for, and they start asking a bunch of personal questions...
My ADHD brain noped out of there in an overwhelmed browser closing act of defiance! :-)
It's not even clear what you are signing up for, and they start asking a bunch of personal questions...
My ADHD brain noped out of there in an overwhelmed browser closing act of defiance! :-)
Not only it's counter productive to engage adhd people, which makes me question their legitimity, but it's manipulative. It's textbook commitment increase to convert a lead into a paying customers. Doesn't feel they put the care in health care.
this adhd relief music has been a blessing for me to quickly get into the hyper focused state. Discovered it 8 months ago and it's still serving me fine https://youtu.be/k9ts6p63ns0
The article mentions tools for coworking and pairing, which are great tools! (Actually building one too: https://doubleapp.xyz)
However, as another founder with ADHD, there’s something to be said about being able to take the similar tactics we funnel into work tasks and place it into the day-to-day. Scheduling laundry with others, reading at the same time, running buddies, etc. I’ve found that work stuff is usually okay for me. It’s the “everything else” that’s ridiculously hard to do.
However, as another founder with ADHD, there’s something to be said about being able to take the similar tactics we funnel into work tasks and place it into the day-to-day. Scheduling laundry with others, reading at the same time, running buddies, etc. I’ve found that work stuff is usually okay for me. It’s the “everything else” that’s ridiculously hard to do.
Anyone who has an ADHD diagnosis should also look into ASD. Comorbidity rate data range between 33% and 80% between ADHD and ASD. I’ve only discovered that recently after 10 years as an adult with ADHD. Since then I’ve been looking into the past and recalling things like toe walking as a child, intense sensory issues, painful social interactions, and speech issues. As I’ve done so I’ve also connected with a lot of support resources and community. It’s been really helpful to have a fuller understanding of my blind spots and predispositions. It both helps me adapt to accommodate my needs, but also accept my limitations and unique strengths. ASD is poorly understood by the medical and psychiatric communities; recent research is making some huge steps forward in diagnosing female autistic traits, genetics, and having autistic participation/leadership in research.
It’s more poorly understood by the general public. People seem to have the idea that spectrum refers to intensity of symptoms. In fact it refers to their diversity. Some people have strong social skills but lack executive function, others have sensory difficulties and struggle with daily activities like hygiene. There is no “high functioning” autism, there are people who are highly engaged at appearing “normal” to the detriment of their energy and identity, often referred to as ‘masking’.
https://carmenbpingree.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Screen...
My synthesis of the research and anecdotes I’ve collected is that ADHD and ASD are distinct, but there is also likely a unique diagnosis likely to come in the future that represents the combination of the two. All of them are associated with the same regions of the brain, predominantly basal ganglia and cerebellum. It’s incredibly heritable. There is strong evidence that there are connections with endocrine disruption. There is a strong connection with non-conforming gender identity and ‘audhd’ which seem to be related to similar hormonal dynamics.
Many many founders and world-changing folks have ADHD, ASD, or some combo. It leads them to think in unique and powerful ways, and to see through established social norms to make real change possible. A lot of “former gifted kids” fall into this bucket. Their ability to learn rapidly and emulate social behavior actually prevents them from getting support for their very real needs which are often understood as symptoms of other disorders like depression. The challenges of real life eventually catch up and can lead to catastrophic burnout and diminishing abilities.
If you have an ADHD diagnosis just do yourself a favor and spend some time on embrace-autism.com for some good info and credible assessments.
It’s more poorly understood by the general public. People seem to have the idea that spectrum refers to intensity of symptoms. In fact it refers to their diversity. Some people have strong social skills but lack executive function, others have sensory difficulties and struggle with daily activities like hygiene. There is no “high functioning” autism, there are people who are highly engaged at appearing “normal” to the detriment of their energy and identity, often referred to as ‘masking’.
https://carmenbpingree.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Screen...
My synthesis of the research and anecdotes I’ve collected is that ADHD and ASD are distinct, but there is also likely a unique diagnosis likely to come in the future that represents the combination of the two. All of them are associated with the same regions of the brain, predominantly basal ganglia and cerebellum. It’s incredibly heritable. There is strong evidence that there are connections with endocrine disruption. There is a strong connection with non-conforming gender identity and ‘audhd’ which seem to be related to similar hormonal dynamics.
Many many founders and world-changing folks have ADHD, ASD, or some combo. It leads them to think in unique and powerful ways, and to see through established social norms to make real change possible. A lot of “former gifted kids” fall into this bucket. Their ability to learn rapidly and emulate social behavior actually prevents them from getting support for their very real needs which are often understood as symptoms of other disorders like depression. The challenges of real life eventually catch up and can lead to catastrophic burnout and diminishing abilities.
If you have an ADHD diagnosis just do yourself a favor and spend some time on embrace-autism.com for some good info and credible assessments.
I have ADHD but no symptoms of autism. My sensory processing is fine, and I am genuinely empathetic and able to read people's feeling and moods like a sixth sense.
I was formally diagnosed with ASD from a young age, but only recently found out that I might have ADHD too. So this goes both ways, I think. Trying for a diagnosis and some meds of course, appointment in 11 days.
It definitely does. Stimulants really have helped me in meaningful ways. I also recommend ADHD/ND specific therapy. Not just CBT, we tend to play too many meta head games for that to work well on us. The meds work best when you have learned behaviors that you’re changing along with the clarity and motivation that they can unlock. If not, you end up being a lot more motivated and effective at done the least useful things lol.
Thanks for Sharing, I completely relate to the 100% relapse rate with ADHD. Somehow I manage to be surprised every time I relapse.
Has anyone here used InFlow (the app mentioned in the article)? Curious to hear your experiences if you have.
I noped out as soon as I saw it wanted a yearly subscription to activate a week-long 'free' trial.
I didn't trust myself to remember to cancel it in time and was disgusted at them weaponizing this dark pattern against ADHDers, so that was it for me.
If you go to the Play Store and search for the one-star reviews there are loads of people saying the same. And also for those that did try it, that it's mostly useless anyway.
I didn't trust myself to remember to cancel it in time and was disgusted at them weaponizing this dark pattern against ADHDers, so that was it for me.
If you go to the Play Store and search for the one-star reviews there are loads of people saying the same. And also for those that did try it, that it's mostly useless anyway.
Pro-tip, at least on Apple devices: "buy" the trial, then immediately cancel it in your subscriptions. You'll still have access to it for whatever the trial period is, then it'll just stop working (vs. bill you).
This is the real ADHD MVP tip
Same. And the form to "personalize" your experience is a dark pattern to lead you to commit to this. It's used by the porn and gambling industries to increase conversation and I wouldn't trust a healthcare company using it.
Yikes, yeah that's not good
The fact that everyone is diagnosed with adhd and then given amphetamines is going to be the medical scandal of this century. I have several friends who have become unbearable due to being constantly high, one of them quit their job and is now unemployed and alone, unable to function in crowds. Of course they all report that they feel great on the speed!
Everyone is different, and it's unfortunate that your friend's experience is not good, and that you don't know anyone with a healthy relationship with their medication.
The truth is that lots of people manage their stimulants just fine. Across everyone I know on stimulants, 8 friends and family, none are as you describe. These are people I physically see on a regular basis. No one is addicted, high, unable to function or experiencing material personality changes. Every single one of them is taking low to moderate doses, as needed, and says their stimulants changed their life for the better, allowing them to function "normally" at work or school.
The truth is that lots of people manage their stimulants just fine. Across everyone I know on stimulants, 8 friends and family, none are as you describe. These are people I physically see on a regular basis. No one is addicted, high, unable to function or experiencing material personality changes. Every single one of them is taking low to moderate doses, as needed, and says their stimulants changed their life for the better, allowing them to function "normally" at work or school.
Fast acting stimulants are prone to abuse, and people with ADHD are more likely to have addictions (because, you know, deficit of dopamine). A competent psychiatrist follows their patient throughout the treatment to evaluate if the cure is worse than the disease. If that's the case, adapt the treatment: switch to extended release medication, change medication, up/lower the dose, impose weekly sessions to keep the medication to control abuse,... The tool box is clearly not empty.
Did you ask your friends how they are doing or did you find them annoying once and decided the problem was their medication?
Did you ask your friends how they are doing or did you find them annoying once and decided the problem was their medication?
They sound like they’re not managing their ADHD well and could use adjusted medication and therapy.
Hopefully their friends are supportive of them and not secretly denying the existence of their disease.
Because wow, that’d be really abhorrent of those friends.
Hopefully their friends are supportive of them and not secretly denying the existence of their disease.
Because wow, that’d be really abhorrent of those friends.
That's exactly it, they probably need to adjust their medication. It seems like you are unable to understand that this position comes from a place of trying to be supportive, but thanks for the implication.
Seriously. There are "doctors" offices in NYC that operate in 5 minute appointment intervals. The entire waiting room is full of white collar professionals or college students with this terrible disease, ADHD. Anyone who wants it can get it, you just gotta find a pill mill. You self diagnose by saying "I can't concentrate" or "I get distracted" and the shrink writes you a legal script for speed. Some places may have you answer a questionnaire, which is self fulfilling prophecy. Seriously, look at these questions, its laughable this qualifies you for legal meth - https://add.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/adhd-questionnair...
ADHD is real, it deeply damages people's lives and it is usually treatable with stimulants, with an unusual degree of effectiveness. My psychiatrist told me up front that his diagnostic process was not directed towards ADHD and that he might end up with some other diagnosis or none at all. In the end he diagnosed me with ADHD after a process of interviews, tests, evaluation of historical evidence, and submissions by my family regarding my life and behaviour. I have a fat file of the documentation involved.
You are talking about greedy irresponsible doctors and bad faith "patients".
These are not the same thing.
You are talking about greedy irresponsible doctors and bad faith "patients".
These are not the same thing.
Stimulant's are effective at improving mood and productivity. There is no question there. I'm highly skeptical of a "disease" or "disorder". Having worked in investment banks where the majority of people were on adhd meds, college where most students were on adhd meds, and seeing all these mid-life diagnoses - is troubling, esp. when prescribing these drugs to children. Its becoming normalized, and even celebrated. Sitting in a classroom for hours everyday, glued to your seat, demanded to shut up and pay attention, is not an ideal environment for kids. If you deviate from that, you could be a candidate for adhd. Once you start these drugs, its difficult to stop and you develop a dependence. I took them for years in my youth and deeply regret it, because it was simply a bandage for addressing areas of self improvement that I ignored. I wish I had someone around back then to play devils advocate.
My revelation came when I observed my oldest child in kindergarten (which was nothing like being glued to a seat). My child was the large and obvious behavioural outlier. Then the unbelievable process in grade 3 of coaching their attention to and completion of simple homework, with much emotional distress and sobbing and feelings of inadequacy. Same with participation in sports. There is no such thing as “an ideal environment” where my kids would function in some kind of parity with their peers.
You have no clue because you have no pertinent experience.
You have no clue because you have no pertinent experience.
You have to look out for your own kid and do what's best, not my place to speak, but I think we can agree on different approaches to these problems. Not all have to be involved with diagnosis or medicine.
I shared these articles in another comment, but this is what I fear is taking over the 'mental health' diagnosis situation atm:
https://unherd.com/2022/11/who-decides-if-youre-mentally-ill...
https://mentalhellth.xyz/p/the-buzzfeed-ification-of-mental
I shared these articles in another comment, but this is what I fear is taking over the 'mental health' diagnosis situation atm:
https://unherd.com/2022/11/who-decides-if-youre-mentally-ill...
https://mentalhellth.xyz/p/the-buzzfeed-ification-of-mental
I will agree that you are conflating and grossly oversimplifying a number of related but different issues. As a result your conclusions are just not valid.
Does the educational system make age-inappropriate almost inhumane demands on children? Yes. Do many kids have attentional and behavioural issues that are not ADHD? Yes. That can be improved without medication? Yes. Should these be distinguished from true AHDH and treated differently? Yes. Should kids with ADHD try non-medical interventions first? Yes. Should kids who have clear diagnostic markers for ADHD and who respond well to stimulants be prescribed stimulants? Hell yes. Should psychiatrists try to weed out non-ADHD people looking for legal sources of speed? Hell yes. Are the fields of psychopathology and psychotherapy problematic? Somewhat. Are they "right"? Not exactly, no. Are they "wrong"? Not exactly, no. Do they relieve suffering? Sometimes, Do they create unintended consequences? Yes, more often than we'd like. Is the whole field conducted in bad faith? No! Is it a work in progress? Yes. Are there bad faith practitioners? Yes. Are there incompetent practitioners? Yes. Are there competent practitioners acting in good faith? Absolutely yes. Are there reliable signals to tell these apart? No, unfortunately, no. Is there an epidemic of performance-enhancing prescription drug abuse in the circles in which you run? Apparently so, and I've heard this elsewhere. Is there performance-enhancing prescription drug abuse in the circles in which I run? Not to my knowledge.
Life is complicated. You do no good by mashing all this stuff together and disposing of it with simplistic conclusions.
Does the educational system make age-inappropriate almost inhumane demands on children? Yes. Do many kids have attentional and behavioural issues that are not ADHD? Yes. That can be improved without medication? Yes. Should these be distinguished from true AHDH and treated differently? Yes. Should kids with ADHD try non-medical interventions first? Yes. Should kids who have clear diagnostic markers for ADHD and who respond well to stimulants be prescribed stimulants? Hell yes. Should psychiatrists try to weed out non-ADHD people looking for legal sources of speed? Hell yes. Are the fields of psychopathology and psychotherapy problematic? Somewhat. Are they "right"? Not exactly, no. Are they "wrong"? Not exactly, no. Do they relieve suffering? Sometimes, Do they create unintended consequences? Yes, more often than we'd like. Is the whole field conducted in bad faith? No! Is it a work in progress? Yes. Are there bad faith practitioners? Yes. Are there incompetent practitioners? Yes. Are there competent practitioners acting in good faith? Absolutely yes. Are there reliable signals to tell these apart? No, unfortunately, no. Is there an epidemic of performance-enhancing prescription drug abuse in the circles in which you run? Apparently so, and I've heard this elsewhere. Is there performance-enhancing prescription drug abuse in the circles in which I run? Not to my knowledge.
Life is complicated. You do no good by mashing all this stuff together and disposing of it with simplistic conclusions.
> I'm highly skeptical of a "disease" or "disorder".
Well, it’s you versus the entire medical community. Who do you think is more likely yo be right?
Your bad experience is unfortunate but does not reflect that of most people with ADHD. It’s the only disorder which responds incredibly well to treatment by stimulants, and you’ll find that fact proven out by medical science.
Well, it’s you versus the entire medical community. Who do you think is more likely yo be right?
Your bad experience is unfortunate but does not reflect that of most people with ADHD. It’s the only disorder which responds incredibly well to treatment by stimulants, and you’ll find that fact proven out by medical science.
Psychology/psychiatry has a dark past and seems to change its mind on things very often (often because of political correctness). Borderline a pseudoscience.
Until there's a blood test or concrete psychological proof, its just simply not a disease. These articles were great reads on this phenomenon of self diagnosis:
https://unherd.com/2022/11/who-decides-if-youre-mentally-ill...
https://mentalhellth.xyz/p/the-buzzfeed-ification-of-mental
Until there's a blood test or concrete psychological proof, its just simply not a disease. These articles were great reads on this phenomenon of self diagnosis:
https://unherd.com/2022/11/who-decides-if-youre-mentally-ill...
https://mentalhellth.xyz/p/the-buzzfeed-ification-of-mental
> Until there's a blood test or concrete psychological proof, its just simply not a disease
Again, you versus the entire medical community. I am saddened to see you making such strong claims from a position of such ignorance.
You're talking about self-diagnosis, and I'm talking about medical professional diagnosing the disease.
Again, you versus the entire medical community. I am saddened to see you making such strong claims from a position of such ignorance.
You're talking about self-diagnosis, and I'm talking about medical professional diagnosing the disease.
My claims are from a position of experience - myself, seeing friends/family all diagnosed with disorders out of nowhere, seemingly around the same time. Seeing colleagues and peers suddenly "neurodivergent". Looking for temporary solutions to permanent problems in the form of a pill. Using these substances to lose weight, get ahead at work, study, clean their homes, become more social/personable, etc. I digress, adults can calculate the risks for themselves.
If you take a peek at those articles, you'll notice that there's a big trend in people (usually young adults/teens) self diagnosing on the internet, whether its joining a forum/reddit/discord, then going to a doctor, saying, "I HAVE X" and more often than not, they get what they want. This takes away a good chunk of credibility of the 'medical community'. You can even get "diagnosed" via telehealth services now. No need to go into an office! How many people are they turning away? Hmm.
If you take a peek at those articles, you'll notice that there's a big trend in people (usually young adults/teens) self diagnosing on the internet, whether its joining a forum/reddit/discord, then going to a doctor, saying, "I HAVE X" and more often than not, they get what they want. This takes away a good chunk of credibility of the 'medical community'. You can even get "diagnosed" via telehealth services now. No need to go into an office! How many people are they turning away? Hmm.
Yep and this ends up hurting everyone who legitimately suffers from it.
Both from people who do this, then decide the meds just get them high, so they must get everyone high—they don’t.
And from those who see this and use it as fuel attempt to discredit the condition itself.
> writes you a legal script for speed.
ADHD meds aren’t street drugs. There’s stimulant and non-stimulant options, that work for different people.
> its laughable this qualifies you for legal meth
Desoxyn is a rare treatment option, valuable to those who really need it.
Methamphetamine may be _very_ close to other amphetamines, but the methyl group unlocks access to other parts of the brain. It’s a different drug, with different effects.
I fully agree with you that this shouldn’t be happening, but the comparisons to street drugs only work in favour of operations like the one you describe in NYC.
Both from people who do this, then decide the meds just get them high, so they must get everyone high—they don’t.
And from those who see this and use it as fuel attempt to discredit the condition itself.
> writes you a legal script for speed.
ADHD meds aren’t street drugs. There’s stimulant and non-stimulant options, that work for different people.
> its laughable this qualifies you for legal meth
Desoxyn is a rare treatment option, valuable to those who really need it.
Methamphetamine may be _very_ close to other amphetamines, but the methyl group unlocks access to other parts of the brain. It’s a different drug, with different effects.
I fully agree with you that this shouldn’t be happening, but the comparisons to street drugs only work in favour of operations like the one you describe in NYC.
While I agree that stimulant are overprescribed they can however be at least temporarily helpful to help someone with ADHD get their life in order and make meaningful lifestyle changes in order to get the symptoms under control.
How would we measure if it’s being overprescribed?
It’s more likely still under-diagnosed.
The pandemic threw such a big spanner in the works that so many of us started to struggle enough to notice it wasn’t normal. This put the mental health system under significant strain. More people than ever have been diagnosed.
In the US, an ill-guided rule that limits the manufactured capacity of stimulants, not by demand, but by an arbitrary number, impact people recently.
They couldn’t refill their scripts. Supply effectively ran out.
> temporarily helpful to help someone with ADHD get their life in order and make meaningful lifestyle changes in order to get the symptoms under control.
A wheelchair is temporarily helpful, so are reading glasses. They could help someone to get their life in order, and make meaningful lifestyle changes to get their symptoms under control.
Somehow I think we’d both agree even after that you wouldn’t take someone’s wheelchair or reading glasses from them?
It’s more likely still under-diagnosed.
The pandemic threw such a big spanner in the works that so many of us started to struggle enough to notice it wasn’t normal. This put the mental health system under significant strain. More people than ever have been diagnosed.
In the US, an ill-guided rule that limits the manufactured capacity of stimulants, not by demand, but by an arbitrary number, impact people recently.
They couldn’t refill their scripts. Supply effectively ran out.
> temporarily helpful to help someone with ADHD get their life in order and make meaningful lifestyle changes in order to get the symptoms under control.
A wheelchair is temporarily helpful, so are reading glasses. They could help someone to get their life in order, and make meaningful lifestyle changes to get their symptoms under control.
Somehow I think we’d both agree even after that you wouldn’t take someone’s wheelchair or reading glasses from them?
Ritalin comes with weird side effects. My partner changed quite a bit in a short time until she herself couldn't stand it anymore. Mostly because the libido died and left a thumb feeling.
So she switched to better amphetamines (Dextro) and side effects turned away. Leaving only the positive, expected, effects essentially.
I took a lot of amphetamines in my life. But Ritalin is the only one I can't stand myself on. It's like a neuroleptic is packaged in (I know it isn't) but it makes so thumb and cold. IMO
So she switched to better amphetamines (Dextro) and side effects turned away. Leaving only the positive, expected, effects essentially.
I took a lot of amphetamines in my life. But Ritalin is the only one I can't stand myself on. It's like a neuroleptic is packaged in (I know it isn't) but it makes so thumb and cold. IMO
Still making my way through this article so kinda writing this as it seems relevant. I guess the following is as much for me as anyone reading.
> Regarding the long-range management of ADHD, it is important to point out that the relapse rate for ADHD is 100%.
What I think is maybe related to what is discussed about CBT... In the past I've relied on being able to set aside large spans of time to either get things done, allow myself time to be mindless (mindfulness?), organize things, etc before the interruptions started. This worked fantastically as I was up at 4-6 am every weekday (father duties at the weekend), reading, learning, working, writing, etc, before the slack messages, meetings, email started rolling in.
I guess I had a similar system long ago when I was single, staying up all night till the crack of dawn reading, writing, but mostly wasting time on the internet. That wasn't feasible with a family so I somehow managed to push everything over to the other side of my sleep schedule, despite NEVER being a morning person. It was tough, but I made it work and things got better. It still took me forever to do the most basic things, but at least I had more uninterrupted time to get them done. I feel like I had found a coping strategy for my ADHD.
Recently, everything came crashing down when my routine was disrupted by having to get my daughter up, ready and dropped off at school. I was able to figure out a way to split this responsibility to half of the week, but that's since become my whole responsibility. I also have to pick her up from school (50% of the time), make dinner, clean up, etc... I also put her to be every night. By the time that's all done and I've taken care of my own needs it's basically time to get to bed.
Now I've fallen so far behind at work, no time for professional or personal learning, no organizing, etc... Additionally my marriage is in a state that I could never have imagined (although this was on its way to happening either way). Now I think I'm battling some depression, anxiety, sleep deprivation... all of this obviously just makes everything even worse.
What I now recognize is that I became far too dependent on the luxury of having large spans of uninterrupted personal time. This is great while it lasts, but for some like me, not guaranteed. Instead, I've begun to rely on small increments of time and effort, and I think that some of these CBT techniques and the overall framework might help.
> This harkens back to our notion that CBT for adult ADHD provides a framework for understanding how dif- ficulties arise as well as companion coping strategies with which to make changes
It's tough, but I think it's the only way I'm going to survive. Btw, I am in therapy and have medicine, and despite all of this I am a happy individual and still love life.
> I also went from taking nothing on weekends to taking half my weekday dose. My life on the weekend doesn’t need as much executive function, but it doesn’t not need any
One thing that wasn't immediately apparent to me was that my ADHD isn't restricted to work hours. I need to be able to focus on my family, friends and self as much as whatever I'm trying to get done at work. I too felt shameful about being on medicine, but come to realize that neurotypicals just don't understand the effects and benefits of some of these medications.
I'll prob add more if i can find some time to come back to the article and this thread.
FYI, recently diagnosed with ADHD in my forties. I've been unknowingly dealing with ADHD all my life. It explains so many issues that I've been dealing with since I can remember. It's hard not to feel some kind of resentment and anger about why no one noticed long ago. In many ways I feel like someone has just woken me up from a 40 year slumber, like an adult that didn't listen during school and has to go back and learn everything from scratch. Whenever I heard about people with ADHD I always imagined they had some kind of focusing superpower. Fuck ADHD, I feel like it's trying to ruin my life.
> Regarding the long-range management of ADHD, it is important to point out that the relapse rate for ADHD is 100%.
What I think is maybe related to what is discussed about CBT... In the past I've relied on being able to set aside large spans of time to either get things done, allow myself time to be mindless (mindfulness?), organize things, etc before the interruptions started. This worked fantastically as I was up at 4-6 am every weekday (father duties at the weekend), reading, learning, working, writing, etc, before the slack messages, meetings, email started rolling in.
I guess I had a similar system long ago when I was single, staying up all night till the crack of dawn reading, writing, but mostly wasting time on the internet. That wasn't feasible with a family so I somehow managed to push everything over to the other side of my sleep schedule, despite NEVER being a morning person. It was tough, but I made it work and things got better. It still took me forever to do the most basic things, but at least I had more uninterrupted time to get them done. I feel like I had found a coping strategy for my ADHD.
Recently, everything came crashing down when my routine was disrupted by having to get my daughter up, ready and dropped off at school. I was able to figure out a way to split this responsibility to half of the week, but that's since become my whole responsibility. I also have to pick her up from school (50% of the time), make dinner, clean up, etc... I also put her to be every night. By the time that's all done and I've taken care of my own needs it's basically time to get to bed.
Now I've fallen so far behind at work, no time for professional or personal learning, no organizing, etc... Additionally my marriage is in a state that I could never have imagined (although this was on its way to happening either way). Now I think I'm battling some depression, anxiety, sleep deprivation... all of this obviously just makes everything even worse.
What I now recognize is that I became far too dependent on the luxury of having large spans of uninterrupted personal time. This is great while it lasts, but for some like me, not guaranteed. Instead, I've begun to rely on small increments of time and effort, and I think that some of these CBT techniques and the overall framework might help.
> This harkens back to our notion that CBT for adult ADHD provides a framework for understanding how dif- ficulties arise as well as companion coping strategies with which to make changes
It's tough, but I think it's the only way I'm going to survive. Btw, I am in therapy and have medicine, and despite all of this I am a happy individual and still love life.
> I also went from taking nothing on weekends to taking half my weekday dose. My life on the weekend doesn’t need as much executive function, but it doesn’t not need any
One thing that wasn't immediately apparent to me was that my ADHD isn't restricted to work hours. I need to be able to focus on my family, friends and self as much as whatever I'm trying to get done at work. I too felt shameful about being on medicine, but come to realize that neurotypicals just don't understand the effects and benefits of some of these medications.
I'll prob add more if i can find some time to come back to the article and this thread.
FYI, recently diagnosed with ADHD in my forties. I've been unknowingly dealing with ADHD all my life. It explains so many issues that I've been dealing with since I can remember. It's hard not to feel some kind of resentment and anger about why no one noticed long ago. In many ways I feel like someone has just woken me up from a 40 year slumber, like an adult that didn't listen during school and has to go back and learn everything from scratch. Whenever I heard about people with ADHD I always imagined they had some kind of focusing superpower. Fuck ADHD, I feel like it's trying to ruin my life.
So what are the proposed tools?
>"Highly recommend not yelling at yourself constantly."
In Australia we call this "Living the dream".
In Australia we call this "Living the dream".
i've been putting off reading this, and the comments.
[deleted]
Regardless of anything else, I think the key thing to remember about ADHD is that you do not need to be a high-performing human being, at all, in life. You will forget things and get distracted and not get as much done. So what. You are still intelligent and caring and dedicated and responsible and a hard worker. You probably put more effort in (when you get around to it) than many others without the condition. And you will do about as well as everyone else, on average. And this is fine. Do not put pressure on yourself to live up to what someone else can do. Only do what you can do, in your time, and be at peace.