Ask HN: Have you ever considered leaving tech because you didn’t feel fulfilled?
Hi all - I’ve been thinking about this lately. In tech we generally have the ability to find “cushy” jobs. However, sometimes it seems like other industries might be more fulfilling, even if the hours are longer and the pay is less. Have you ever left tech to pursue something like this? If so how did it go? If not why not?
94 comments
What I've learned over the years is that X can be fun but X industry can be less fun and sometimes mindless, boring, or even soul crushing.
Early in my life I was very into fashion and so I opened a store. Fashion was fun and interesting to me. The fashion industry was less so.
Next I tried food. Making and consuming food was fun. The restaurant industry, again, was less so.
Today I'm a software engineer. I always wrote code as a hobby (started when was about 11). I love technology and software. Again however, the technology industry leaves me unfulfilled.
I have no plans to leave tech now though. My life is very different. I'm 37. I have a wife and a child. I have other hobbies that I like a lot and so my career in the tech industry is a means to an end. The end being financial support for my family and hobbies. I don't mean to say that I get to gratification from my work. I do really love working on some of the technical problems I encounter at work and I really like the people on my team. Overall it's a positive experience if I can put out of my mind the larger system that I'm in and how I feel about that.
Early in my life I was very into fashion and so I opened a store. Fashion was fun and interesting to me. The fashion industry was less so.
Next I tried food. Making and consuming food was fun. The restaurant industry, again, was less so.
Today I'm a software engineer. I always wrote code as a hobby (started when was about 11). I love technology and software. Again however, the technology industry leaves me unfulfilled.
I have no plans to leave tech now though. My life is very different. I'm 37. I have a wife and a child. I have other hobbies that I like a lot and so my career in the tech industry is a means to an end. The end being financial support for my family and hobbies. I don't mean to say that I get to gratification from my work. I do really love working on some of the technical problems I encounter at work and I really like the people on my team. Overall it's a positive experience if I can put out of my mind the larger system that I'm in and how I feel about that.
In my experience (of observing others) - "wherever you go, there you are." Meaning, you are either in position to find meaning in what you do, or you aren't - and changing your environment isn't likely to help.
Easy example - used to work in finance. Some folks looked at the job as "shit I don't care about but do for money" - others looked at the same exact job and recognized that their work was having meaningful impact on bringing stability to the markets and helping retirees having cumulatively billions more dollars to spend in retirement than they would otherwise.
Also, if you're involved in charitable work or have a family, it's very easy to feel fulfilled because the high income from your work enables you to very meaningfully support those things.
Not to mention working with great people, having access to a ton of opportunity, etc.
On the flip side, if you don't have family/community/causes you care about, and you aren't able to "see" the meaning that's present in the work you're doing, then chances are switching jobs or industries isn't going to help.
Easy example - used to work in finance. Some folks looked at the job as "shit I don't care about but do for money" - others looked at the same exact job and recognized that their work was having meaningful impact on bringing stability to the markets and helping retirees having cumulatively billions more dollars to spend in retirement than they would otherwise.
Also, if you're involved in charitable work or have a family, it's very easy to feel fulfilled because the high income from your work enables you to very meaningfully support those things.
Not to mention working with great people, having access to a ton of opportunity, etc.
On the flip side, if you don't have family/community/causes you care about, and you aren't able to "see" the meaning that's present in the work you're doing, then chances are switching jobs or industries isn't going to help.
I think the hard thing about mental work is you never feel like you've finished something. There's always more work to do and new features to build. The appeal of something like woodworking is it has a finish, and you have a tangible thing at the end. I think lifting and running scratch the physical exertion itch that the desk job leaves me with.
At the end of the day, if you have a pretty easy going role that pays well enough you can always take the big pay and fill your time with hobbies and what not that do bring you joy and fulfillment.
At the end of the day, if you have a pretty easy going role that pays well enough you can always take the big pay and fill your time with hobbies and what not that do bring you joy and fulfillment.
This is the killer for me. I've never found tech work fulfilling, personally, and I never expected to. But what has burned me out is the sense of being perpetually behind because there's no finish line; infinitely marching onward without ever feeling you've accomplished something. Every morning I open the same files.
My friends outside tech often talk about the satisfaction and relief they feel after completing a big project, and the relatively peaceful lull between such projects, and it just sounds so nice. Doesn't matter whether it's a big event they planned, a tour they went on, or a structure they welded. When something is done it's done. They get to move on personally and professionally.
It used to feel like a job change would provide that sense of momentum, but even that's disappearing now that every product (at least from my designer's perspective) feels more or less identical these days.
My friends outside tech often talk about the satisfaction and relief they feel after completing a big project, and the relatively peaceful lull between such projects, and it just sounds so nice. Doesn't matter whether it's a big event they planned, a tour they went on, or a structure they welded. When something is done it's done. They get to move on personally and professionally.
It used to feel like a job change would provide that sense of momentum, but even that's disappearing now that every product (at least from my designer's perspective) feels more or less identical these days.
Yes you can do that, but on the other hand, can hobbies really balance it out, considering the amount of time you spend working? 40 hours per week for 2-3 decades is a very long time to be feeling unfulfilled, even if you get the twilight hours and a few weeks a year to do something interesting. And by the time you retire you've lost your creative energy.
It really depends what you're working on. If you go to a one product company you'll be stuck forever improving it. In other niches, for example embedded-ish, you can have multiple solutions churning the customer's bits in production in just a couple years.
The exact reason I like cooking. It has a start and a finish with a tangible result.
Only every morning.
I'd love to be working/owning a bakery/coffeeshop/bookstore. Then I remember my salary as a level of my effort and what it affords me and my family and how much time I can spend with me kids.
And then I also remember that anything I like to do for fun now that I'd decide to turn into a job would likely become NOT fun as soon as it's a job.
I'd love to be working/owning a bakery/coffeeshop/bookstore. Then I remember my salary as a level of my effort and what it affords me and my family and how much time I can spend with me kids.
And then I also remember that anything I like to do for fun now that I'd decide to turn into a job would likely become NOT fun as soon as it's a job.
Yep. I even went as far as getting my real estate license.
Getting a peek into another field makes you quickly appreciate how good we have it and I readjusted to try to focus on what I really love doing in this field.
It turns out, I like teaching and helping people work together more effectively so I've gotten into consulting over the last couple of years. Really enjoying it so far too. I get to work with a wide variety of people, look into how companies are operating to diagnose pain points, areas of inefficiency between teams, bottlenecks and help to solve them. I help with DMARC deployments because so many companies still haven't rolled that out properly yet. I assist dev teams with fixing application and database performance issues too. If asked I also teach official training courses on Gitlab or Scaled Agile Framework.
Essentially, I help with the areas where I have a deep amount of experience and try to make sure people at the company know how to make sure the problems don't come back long term. For somebody like me who deep dives into everything before moving onto the next problem, it's nice to be able to share with more people.
I get the most enjoyment from helping to improve the management structure for developers though. In many cases it's very unbalanced.
Getting a peek into another field makes you quickly appreciate how good we have it and I readjusted to try to focus on what I really love doing in this field.
It turns out, I like teaching and helping people work together more effectively so I've gotten into consulting over the last couple of years. Really enjoying it so far too. I get to work with a wide variety of people, look into how companies are operating to diagnose pain points, areas of inefficiency between teams, bottlenecks and help to solve them. I help with DMARC deployments because so many companies still haven't rolled that out properly yet. I assist dev teams with fixing application and database performance issues too. If asked I also teach official training courses on Gitlab or Scaled Agile Framework.
Essentially, I help with the areas where I have a deep amount of experience and try to make sure people at the company know how to make sure the problems don't come back long term. For somebody like me who deep dives into everything before moving onto the next problem, it's nice to be able to share with more people.
I get the most enjoyment from helping to improve the management structure for developers though. In many cases it's very unbalanced.
Engineers weren’t paid until 2000. Early in my career, I switched to marketing (1983). The problem was, it was repetitive, and ultimately boring. But it paid the bills way better 1983-2000. I switched back to engineering in 2000. It had the same EXACT difficulties as in 1983: assholes who felt contempt for “the details” and were invited to meetings you weren’t. It was actually even worse! Now the assholes were 20 years younger than me and had the same misapprehensions about people I had back then. Yet it didn’t really bother me. Houses were paid off and I could screw around with LabView, Solidworks, and LTSpice all at once and get paid for it.
TBH, I don't feel we really got paid until about 2012 or so- or at least it did not reach me (on the east coast around NYC) until then. I spent the first ten years of my career lamenting my choice, for the amount of effort, both mental and number of hours, it took to do the job, while my business-oriented peers in college were doing well but seemed to never have to work on a weekend or miss a happy hour/dinner. Until around that time I was always considered a second class citizen in just about any company I worked at.
Two things happened around 2012- the "startups" became "tech giants" and started competing with each other for talent with real money or RSUs, not just options that may pan out one day in the future. And tbh the work became easier- its hard to really understate how important the ability to just "stack overflow" a problem is, and the modern stacks developed to a point where it was really hard to make a case to roll your own libs instead of just pulling one off the shelf. As an example, I used to do C/C++, and until boost came along and started getting adoption in the mid 2000s, each time I changed jobs, I had to learn about a whole new "stl" that each company had built and all its quirks and fumble around for at least a month or two while I figured out how to do basic things like string manipulation Their Way. Web went from straight DOM manipulation and fighting with IE6, to toolkits and later frameworks that smoothed over all of these issues and let you focus on building apps, not UI.
Even without having worked for a tech giant, I am very grateful for them lifting all tech salaries, and I get to live in a very nice comfortable house that is almost paid off. I am glad I stuck it out- I was actually starting to study to become an actuary because I was so fed up with being treated like a peon around 2011 by people whose job I could easily do, but wouldn't have the slightest idea on how to do mine.
Two things happened around 2012- the "startups" became "tech giants" and started competing with each other for talent with real money or RSUs, not just options that may pan out one day in the future. And tbh the work became easier- its hard to really understate how important the ability to just "stack overflow" a problem is, and the modern stacks developed to a point where it was really hard to make a case to roll your own libs instead of just pulling one off the shelf. As an example, I used to do C/C++, and until boost came along and started getting adoption in the mid 2000s, each time I changed jobs, I had to learn about a whole new "stl" that each company had built and all its quirks and fumble around for at least a month or two while I figured out how to do basic things like string manipulation Their Way. Web went from straight DOM manipulation and fighting with IE6, to toolkits and later frameworks that smoothed over all of these issues and let you focus on building apps, not UI.
Even without having worked for a tech giant, I am very grateful for them lifting all tech salaries, and I get to live in a very nice comfortable house that is almost paid off. I am glad I stuck it out- I was actually starting to study to become an actuary because I was so fed up with being treated like a peon around 2011 by people whose job I could easily do, but wouldn't have the slightest idea on how to do mine.
It's 2022, and we're still not getting paid. For any engineer you can find an executive in marketing or sales who is paid better.
Considering switching towards tech because finance isn’t fulfilling. Seems like a grass greener problem frankly
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I personally have not, but I've seen many posts on here over the years of people leaving for woodworking specifically. In general, I find being able to make something physical that you can touch is very satisfying. I imagine that's part of it.
Most of these people seem to be the ones who have done their FAANG stint and vested mid-6, low-7 figures so they can just hop off and start dallying in woodwork without a major loss in income.
I'm probably off-base here because I'm told i conflate woodworking and carpentry a lot, but isn't it a fairly well-paying profession?
Pay to quality of life at work ratio is more informative than nominal pay.
Tough to beat income earned by doing something with near zero chance of morbidity/mortality and bodily harm, the option to work from home, much higher demand in a much bigger market reducing volatility of at least a certain level of income, low personal liabilities, and vast opportunities for upward movement.
Tough to beat income earned by doing something with near zero chance of morbidity/mortality and bodily harm, the option to work from home, much higher demand in a much bigger market reducing volatility of at least a certain level of income, low personal liabilities, and vast opportunities for upward movement.
In my head "Woodworking" is what you do at your basement/garage shop, building small furniture and fancy end-grain cutting boards.
"Carpentry" is "I built a garage/house/cabin".
The first one is where people gravitate, because there are no regulations on cabinet making or woodturning. If you move to carpentry, you need to know what you're doing and build to code.
"Carpentry" is "I built a garage/house/cabin".
The first one is where people gravitate, because there are no regulations on cabinet making or woodturning. If you move to carpentry, you need to know what you're doing and build to code.
I know of a guy who makes kitchens. Works three or four days a week, clears 300-500k a year.
But he’s a business - decades of experience and contacts and happy referring customers, a lot of money invested in equipment, and big upfront investment in materials for each job.
But he’s a business - decades of experience and contacts and happy referring customers, a lot of money invested in equipment, and big upfront investment in materials for each job.
Looking at the current trend of completely unacceptably shitty work in new construction, if you do quality work on time and on budget you'll have infinite amounts of work just by word of mouth advertising.
The old adage over here goes "If you find a reliable electrician/plumber/handyman, hold on to them and take care of them. You can always find a new partner, but a reliable construction person is a rare find."
The old adage over here goes "If you find a reliable electrician/plumber/handyman, hold on to them and take care of them. You can always find a new partner, but a reliable construction person is a rare find."
That’s probably not a new trend. All shoddy old builds will be gone by definition
I mean “fairly” well paid is still a far cry for most people from FAANG salaries. For example, I have a number of educated friends who have said things like “I’d kill for $70k”.
It pays better than retail, but nowhere near as well as tech.
This is why I picked up gardening as a hobby!
I had a base-hit acquisition and probably could have turned around and done another VC- or self-funded startup. The burnout was too much. After a hiatus I opened a bike shop this year. I can't imagine going back to writing software for money again (I still do it on the side).
Every bike industry vet I've talked to feels about bikes the way I feel about software. Broken industry, yada yada. Anything can wear you down.
Every bike industry vet I've talked to feels about bikes the way I feel about software. Broken industry, yada yada. Anything can wear you down.
After my first burn-out, I spent a year building bikes, going to frame welding classes. Then went back to software.
I've come to the conclusion that most industries are filled with bullshit, "bullshit" being defined as going through the motions in directions orthogonal to the mission in order to satisfy someone's/the institution's character flaws. That activity is naturally unfulfilling, but unless you're going to bootstrap a company or go for high-level leadership there's no way to combat it. So that means finding work where the amount of bullshit is minimized and/or the remaining non-bullshit work makes it worth it.
I have a wife and kid and another kid on the way, and I'm a sole provider, so I don't have the luxury of leaving for a lower paying position. Hell just looking at embedded development (bare metal C, micro-controllers, RTOS work and such), the tech work I find most fulfilling, I'd still have to take a decent haircut vs web-backend software engineering. My solution is I'm trying to spin up lifestyle business side projects that can compensate for any loss in salary when I find a job I actually want, and ideally train me for the jobs I actually want. I think that's the best balance I can strike while remaining an engineer.
I have a wife and kid and another kid on the way, and I'm a sole provider, so I don't have the luxury of leaving for a lower paying position. Hell just looking at embedded development (bare metal C, micro-controllers, RTOS work and such), the tech work I find most fulfilling, I'd still have to take a decent haircut vs web-backend software engineering. My solution is I'm trying to spin up lifestyle business side projects that can compensate for any loss in salary when I find a job I actually want, and ideally train me for the jobs I actually want. I think that's the best balance I can strike while remaining an engineer.
Hey dude, bare metal C, microcontrollers, RTOS work, etc is still very much being done and well-compensated at a few giant companies. Apple, Google, even Microsoft are definitely doing it. Any other tech megacorp that wants to vertically integrate with some custom hardware is going to be doing it at some level too. You can shit out a low quality Android phone/IOT device using Chinese subcontractors, but you need an actual competent team of experts to compete at the top end. (I think there's some interesting stuff happening in the private defense industry too, but I wouldn't personally feel comfortable working on that)
My whole career since I started in 2006 has been bare metal C, and I'm doing pretty well overall.
My whole career since I started in 2006 has been bare metal C, and I'm doing pretty well overall.
I think of it less than being fulfilled, but just sick of what others are doing and feeling is a good thing to do with "tech". Targeting, tracking, analyzing, etc just makes me sick to my core that some really bright people are fully engaged in making this shit "better". The entire cryptocoins and NFTs are also just fully vomit inducing to me as well. Now, it's the talent and tools being used to create DeepFakes. We're promoting creating fakes???WTF!! I met someone that was using AI/ML in medicine looking back at pre-existing scans to see if it might be possible to detect cancer earlier than what was/is currently available. That kind of stuff seems like viable expenditure of efforts. Creating video/images to fool other people that someone said/did something they didn't say/do is just absolute maximum creepy to me.
So yeah, I've often thought about not being involved in the same industry as these asshats.
So yeah, I've often thought about not being involved in the same industry as these asshats.
I have been dealing with burnout on and off for a few years, with the biggest episode happening during the height of the pandemic. After being laid off in Feb 2020 and thus able to collect the unemployment plus the extra $600 per week. I started working on my own projects and having leisure time, I found that I could no longer work on things that my heart was into.
These days, I’m doing consulting mixed with working with a non profit I advise. The former being my fuel to keep going and the later being my passion.
I’m still buying a plot of land in the woods for a cabin, but it’s no longer for the reasons I thought.
These days, I’m doing consulting mixed with working with a non profit I advise. The former being my fuel to keep going and the later being my passion.
I’m still buying a plot of land in the woods for a cabin, but it’s no longer for the reasons I thought.
You may find that you don't have to leave tech in order to find more fulfilling work. "Tech" spans so many industries that you can likely find a position at a company that's more aligned with your interests than whatever it is you're working on now.
In other words, I think you can have it both ways—fulfilling job while utilizing the technical skillset you've built up over years of professional life.
That being said, if you want to leave by all means go for it. One of the benefits of cushy jobs is that you can try something else for a while and come back if it doesn't suite you.
In other words, I think you can have it both ways—fulfilling job while utilizing the technical skillset you've built up over years of professional life.
That being said, if you want to leave by all means go for it. One of the benefits of cushy jobs is that you can try something else for a while and come back if it doesn't suite you.
Only problem is whenever I see a job in a domain that interests me, the only people they seem to hire are new grads from university pipelines or established domain experts that have been at it for a decade or two.
Hmm. I've had friends stating they feel like going into something agricultural.
But consider that on that idyllic countryside farm, you need to wake up at 5 to feed the cows on a fine summer day. Also on that stormy day when you have to wade through half a food of mud to the barn * . And also when the snow is up to your waist * .
Another solution is using that income from your cushy tech job to get some fulfilling hobbies?
* I have waded through half a foot of mud and waist high snow, but recreationally. That was fun, but it's a different thing when you have to do it every day because you must.
But consider that on that idyllic countryside farm, you need to wake up at 5 to feed the cows on a fine summer day. Also on that stormy day when you have to wade through half a food of mud to the barn * . And also when the snow is up to your waist * .
Another solution is using that income from your cushy tech job to get some fulfilling hobbies?
* I have waded through half a foot of mud and waist high snow, but recreationally. That was fun, but it's a different thing when you have to do it every day because you must.
Yes I have noticed this too. There is a small but significant homesteading movement. Ironically, working from home in IT, or making videos about homesteading and using the views to sell products, is often the way these people make it financially possible.
> it's a different thing when you have to do it every day because you must
It's amazing how few people think of this when they look at the idyllic landscape and dream.
source: I live on a horse farm.
It's amazing how few people think of this when they look at the idyllic landscape and dream.
source: I live on a horse farm.
Even so I wonder if for you the farm will come out on top when a coworker tells you "shards are the secret ingredient in the web scale sauce".
For those who haven't seen it, welcome to the lucky 10,000: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HdnDXsqiPYo
For those who haven't seen it, welcome to the lucky 10,000: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HdnDXsqiPYo
I don't speak web corporatese so I doubt I'll work in an organization like that any time soon...
The cow farmers of Bavaria (and Austria, and probably some other places too) had this figured out centuries ago already: they simply built the cow stable back-to-back with the main farm house, so no need to go outdoors to look after the cows and other livestock anymore. But you still have to get up in the wee hours of morning of course...
Of course, now your house stinks to high heaven, but at least you don't have to walk too far.
Grew up on a farm. It's not mud :P
Yes. In the early '00s, I was unfulfilled doing web development and bored out of my mind. I went back to school hoping to get into more interesting tech. I got a bit sidetracked from that because I found immense pleasure in mathematics, but luck would have it, and I found my way to quantum computing through a colleague from my research group. So I didn't really leave tech; I got the credentials to migrate into "high tech." Which isn't a "save the world" type of fulfillment but at least the challenges we face are intellectually stimulating.
And, pertinent to today: I quit my web job as the dot-com bubble was bursting. I graduated in 2008 when the economy was collapsing again and I weathered that crash in grad school, making peanuts but not taking on debt. Going to college/university with a few years of "adult" working experience has its benefits: paying my own tuition, I wasn't there to party, I was there to learn. I devoted myself to the work as if it were my job.
If I had stayed in web stuff, I'd probably have been taking a nice salary for the decade or so that I was in school making beans. My salary would probably be 2-3x what it is today, if I hadn't earned enough to retire early. But I never went hungry, I took on very little debt, and I really enjoy what I do today. I'd do it all over again.
And, pertinent to today: I quit my web job as the dot-com bubble was bursting. I graduated in 2008 when the economy was collapsing again and I weathered that crash in grad school, making peanuts but not taking on debt. Going to college/university with a few years of "adult" working experience has its benefits: paying my own tuition, I wasn't there to party, I was there to learn. I devoted myself to the work as if it were my job.
If I had stayed in web stuff, I'd probably have been taking a nice salary for the decade or so that I was in school making beans. My salary would probably be 2-3x what it is today, if I hadn't earned enough to retire early. But I never went hungry, I took on very little debt, and I really enjoy what I do today. I'd do it all over again.
Just curious, did you have an undergrad degree already?
No, I got into web development straight out of high school. I'd been taking community college courses through an early-entry program; took some programming classes, did some networking, so come Monday after high school, I had a job.
Ah, ok. I’ve been trying to go back for a while now, but the bureaucracy and rigidity of the education system, combined with some unique life circumstances have made it impossible so far. Universities don’t seem to want anyone who’s not a traditional student (unless ofc it’s a low income adult, that they can sell “useless” online degrees to) and community colleges treat me like a clueless teenager and want to hand hold every step of the way.
When I went back to school, I went to community college while freelancing to pay for it. I saw some of that hand-holding you refer to, but I discovered that after I was admitted (and took some remedial math because I'd blown that off in high school), it could largely be avoided. The university had an all-but guaranteed transfer program from community college; I satisfied the requirements and had a stellar GPA (versus "clueless teenagers," as you put it, go figure). Not a single step along the way was easy; but suffering the indignity of a bit of hand-holding wasn't the hard part. Tune out, smile, and do the paperwork. Make sure that you're meeting the actual requirements of the university you want to get into.
I'm the only person I know that both holds a PhD and went to community college. A non-standard resume like mine isn't great for getting jobs. Networking, networking, networking.
I'm the only person I know that both holds a PhD and went to community college. A non-standard resume like mine isn't great for getting jobs. Networking, networking, networking.
Try to attain more autonomy in your role, which admittedly may require a certain tenure or level, and propose work you find interesting for your employer’s or team’s domain. I work at a medium/large tech company and consistently find those of us who feel like we have some control over our destiny to be happier. I also continue to bump into people who it never occurred to them they could propose and lead projects, it really makes a difference.
It's important to understand that "tech" is mostly a "horizontal" part of the economy. Meaning it cuts across multiple "vertical" industries. You can do tech for retail, tech for finance, tech for media. Finding a new vertical to be part of can make a big difference. As can finding the right cohort of people to work with. But otherwise, the lack of fulfillment will likely follow you to whatever job you take.
That goes both ways: for a tech company in a given "vertical", it helps if you can find developers that are at least somewhat knowledgeable in (or interested enough to learn something about) the vertical. Not doing that can lead to a lot of friction and wasted time.
the horizontal aspect of software has samey caricatures that get boring as well. Most of it is web development. If you switch verticals but stay in the same horizontal zone of back end web development you're mostly doing the same stuff if it's web dev.
Need to switch lanes both vertically and horizontally.
Need to switch lanes both vertically and horizontally.
I guess it's not true for everyone, but I derive more satisfaction from the value of my end products rather than the code I write. Writing sexy code to help some Fortune 100 extract more rents doesn't do it for me. Updating legacy code for a product that creates actual value for human beings makes me feel pretty good.
Posting here because I’m worried about personal burnout leading to an increase in OP’s sentiments. I welcome any advice from experienced folk on how to avoid taking on too much responsibility or otherwise setting myself up for burnout. So far I’ve had a very nice time as a programmer, and I find the work fulfilling and fun (based on feeling like I’m truly generating value that gets consumed to the benefit of others’ wellbeing).
Why would you want to work longer hours with low pay?
There are a ton of different "tech" jobs, even when just staying within software development.
You can go from writing code for the ICs in industrial machinery to controlling said machinery with OPC-UA to doing different kinds of process software for industrial use. They're all mostly 9-5 jobs with mediocre pay, but looooong careers.
I myself spent a bit over half a decade developing software for smart metering, both the meters themselves and the software that reads them. No matter how old a meter was, the person who did the software was still working there and I could just walk to their office for the inside scoop on how to wrangle it.
The pace is completely different from startups and (mobile) gaming "tech" jobs.
I'm pretty sure your current employer will love it if you go to them and say "I want to work longer hours and be paid less" if the cushiness is what's bothering you specifically =)
There are a ton of different "tech" jobs, even when just staying within software development.
You can go from writing code for the ICs in industrial machinery to controlling said machinery with OPC-UA to doing different kinds of process software for industrial use. They're all mostly 9-5 jobs with mediocre pay, but looooong careers.
I myself spent a bit over half a decade developing software for smart metering, both the meters themselves and the software that reads them. No matter how old a meter was, the person who did the software was still working there and I could just walk to their office for the inside scoop on how to wrangle it.
The pace is completely different from startups and (mobile) gaming "tech" jobs.
I'm pretty sure your current employer will love it if you go to them and say "I want to work longer hours and be paid less" if the cushiness is what's bothering you specifically =)
I have always felt that my managers are the primary inhibitors.
They are super focused on their career to the exclusion of others.
It has helped a lot of have interesting side projects.
I'm currently toying around with stable diffusion and LLMs.
My fulfillment comes from what I'm using the technology to do, not the technology used to do it (so long as we're not being stupid in our technology stack). Right now I work for a large, American electric utility company. I'm building tools to help customers manage their generation from their solar panels and optimize their costs for charging their EV's. The technology isn't sexy, certainly nothing anybody here on HN would get all excited about, but it's having a huge impact on our customers and I go home with the feeling I'm doing some good in my corner of the world.
'Tech' covers so much. Some people I know in 'tech' do urban planning, some archeology, others make movies or furniture or help invent new drugs. Tech is a tool, and that tool can be applied to just about any endeavour. You have to narrow down what it is you find unfulfilling about what you are currently doing. Is it literally the fact that you are working with modern computer technology or is it something else. Because if it's the specific industry you're in that is getting you down, you can certainly switch that without giving up on the tech part, which is presumably your competitive advantage.
sure I have! but it seems like tech is still the best bang for your buck career out there.
careers that pay more (medicine, law, finance) are meat grinders, cut-throat as fuck, hyper elitist (good luck getting into a top tier investment bank or law firm without going to an ivy league school) and require additional schooling.
more fulfilling careers (education, government, NGOs, etc.) are meat grinders, elitist, pay way less, and are exploited by people who worked in the careers listed above.
definitely talk to people IRL in other careers that you're considering before making the jump. it might be possible for you to coast on tech to fund something more fulfilling.
careers that pay more (medicine, law, finance) are meat grinders, cut-throat as fuck, hyper elitist (good luck getting into a top tier investment bank or law firm without going to an ivy league school) and require additional schooling.
more fulfilling careers (education, government, NGOs, etc.) are meat grinders, elitist, pay way less, and are exploited by people who worked in the careers listed above.
definitely talk to people IRL in other careers that you're considering before making the jump. it might be possible for you to coast on tech to fund something more fulfilling.
I did, but then I realize it isn't technology that fulfills me. It's my sense of accomplishment because I build (at least a few) things and I like to learn new things. Even if those things have no day-to-day value in my work. That taught me that if I want to have a job that's fulfilling, it needs to have impact.
I had my lowest sense of fulfillment working for contracting companies where my work was as likely shelved due to whole programs being cancelled and I'm just one of many projects. No matter what I did, it did not feel like I had an impact in the world. I also felt like I had little agency to change things, after a while. Months of wasted effort, weekends in the office, etc. go up in smoke.
I considered ditching software development because it was fun, but brought me no sense of accomplishment. I looked at opening a store, going back to school to get a Masters in Tax Accounting (I used to be an accountant), or even law school. My sense of accomplishment came from actually doing side projects. It took me 10 or 15 years to connect those dots.
For the last 5 years I've been working for a cloud/product company where I do feel my work directly impacts people. And that is fulfilling. I've watched the result of my efforts unblock numerous lines of revenue. I wasn't some kind of sole hero, but part of a team. But my contribution had a real, positive impact. The difference is my work actually had an impact.
I currently program in bare metal C - a language I've known for the better part of 30 years. I live in an environment no more sophisticated than Visual Studio Code, CMake, and C. It is enjoyable. More than when I worked on cutting edge frameworks with all the 'best' tools. So it's obviously not the technology - it's the job.
I could probably find that same sense of fulfillment doing any one of a dozen things. It's just that I'm probably undiagnosed something or other and I'm pathologically obsessed about all things related to computers. So probably a good alignment between my interest and my job. What I've learned is that I think I could go dig ditches, and as long as it had an impact, I would have a sense of accomplishment.
I had my lowest sense of fulfillment working for contracting companies where my work was as likely shelved due to whole programs being cancelled and I'm just one of many projects. No matter what I did, it did not feel like I had an impact in the world. I also felt like I had little agency to change things, after a while. Months of wasted effort, weekends in the office, etc. go up in smoke.
I considered ditching software development because it was fun, but brought me no sense of accomplishment. I looked at opening a store, going back to school to get a Masters in Tax Accounting (I used to be an accountant), or even law school. My sense of accomplishment came from actually doing side projects. It took me 10 or 15 years to connect those dots.
For the last 5 years I've been working for a cloud/product company where I do feel my work directly impacts people. And that is fulfilling. I've watched the result of my efforts unblock numerous lines of revenue. I wasn't some kind of sole hero, but part of a team. But my contribution had a real, positive impact. The difference is my work actually had an impact.
I currently program in bare metal C - a language I've known for the better part of 30 years. I live in an environment no more sophisticated than Visual Studio Code, CMake, and C. It is enjoyable. More than when I worked on cutting edge frameworks with all the 'best' tools. So it's obviously not the technology - it's the job.
I could probably find that same sense of fulfillment doing any one of a dozen things. It's just that I'm probably undiagnosed something or other and I'm pathologically obsessed about all things related to computers. So probably a good alignment between my interest and my job. What I've learned is that I think I could go dig ditches, and as long as it had an impact, I would have a sense of accomplishment.
I'm going to go ahead and say it's normal to feel some ennui from time to time, but in other jobs you'll likely feel similarly AND have financial concerns you are currently free from. Unless you are at an executive level, or are woefully underpaid (and even if you are) leaving tech will mean taking a 60%+ pay-cut. You probably don't have the mandatory qualifications for other professional jobs that pay reasonably well. All bets are off if you start your own business of course, but the results can be very bimodal.
Eh, tech jobs are not always cushy without long hours. If you are lucky enough to find such a job, consider keeping the job and use your free time to find your missing fulfillment.
Ultimately, satisfaction cannot be achieved only by what you do. If you are called to leave then leave graciously and on good terms. But know if your fulfillment in life is solely tied to your occupation it will always feel empty. You need to feel that hole with something greater than your work.
Don't take my word for it. Study something written by the wisest man of the world. Ecclesiastes.
Don't take my word for it. Study something written by the wisest man of the world. Ecclesiastes.
I am a believer and I agree with you on this. However, I still think that there is a certain amount of fulfillment that we're supposed to get from working.
I totally understand the impulse, but if you can find a way to get a tech or tech-adjacent job in a fulfilling industry, you'll probably be able to have a bigger impact and sacrifice less in terms of pay and work life balance.
I spent two years working in civic tech, and I've known others who have left big tech jobs for non-profits.
I spent two years working in civic tech, and I've known others who have left big tech jobs for non-profits.
I built a fence around my yard a few years ago and got more satisfaction out of looking at that physical manifestation of work every day than I was getting from my day job.
Fence builders probably feel good when they do something outside of their comfort zone, though, so I think it's just a condition of being human.
Fence builders probably feel good when they do something outside of their comfort zone, though, so I think it's just a condition of being human.
I agree. I'm most satisfied when I get something done and acquire a new skill in the process. It doesn't really matter whether it's in software, math, cooking, writing, etc. David Foster Wallace wrote about something similar, about how it's not really about the pursuit itself but overcoming the self:
"Schtitt’s thrust, and his one great irresistible attraction in the eyes of Mario’s late father: The true opponent, the enfolding boundary, is the player himself. Always and only the self out there, on court, to be met, fought, brought to the table to hammer out terms. The competing boy on the net’s other side: he is not the foe: he is more the partner in the dance. He is the what is the word excuse or occasion for meeting the self. As you are his occasion. Tennis’s beauty’s infinite roots are self-competitive. You compete with your own limits to transcend the self in imagination and execution. Disappear inside the game: break through limits: transcend: improve: win. Which is why tennis is an essentially tragic enterprise, to improve and grow as a serious junior, with ambitions. You seek to vanquish and transcend the limited self whose limits make the game possible in the first place. It is tragic and sad and chaotic and lovely. All life is the same, as citizens of the human State: the animating limits are within, to be killed and mourned, over and over again."
"Schtitt’s thrust, and his one great irresistible attraction in the eyes of Mario’s late father: The true opponent, the enfolding boundary, is the player himself. Always and only the self out there, on court, to be met, fought, brought to the table to hammer out terms. The competing boy on the net’s other side: he is not the foe: he is more the partner in the dance. He is the what is the word excuse or occasion for meeting the self. As you are his occasion. Tennis’s beauty’s infinite roots are self-competitive. You compete with your own limits to transcend the self in imagination and execution. Disappear inside the game: break through limits: transcend: improve: win. Which is why tennis is an essentially tragic enterprise, to improve and grow as a serious junior, with ambitions. You seek to vanquish and transcend the limited self whose limits make the game possible in the first place. It is tragic and sad and chaotic and lovely. All life is the same, as citizens of the human State: the animating limits are within, to be killed and mourned, over and over again."
I did leave tech because I was unfulfilled! Here's my story of leaving tech to become a therapist: http://glench.com/WhyIQuitTechAndBecameATherapist/
I left finance, working in illiquid alternatives - writing checks as an LP into VCs and buyout groups because it wasn’t fulfilling. Went back to manufacturing / industrial tech. Hard at first, very fulfilling and economically good a few years later.
Yes, specially now
The new de-facto is to have an over politicsed and heavily dishonest employer.
My work is also seen as a quick commodity to turn around, thanks to Amazon's hire-to-fire schemes
I love programming but working as a software engineer is terrible. I'm becoming a small shop owner asap
The new de-facto is to have an over politicsed and heavily dishonest employer.
My work is also seen as a quick commodity to turn around, thanks to Amazon's hire-to-fire schemes
I love programming but working as a software engineer is terrible. I'm becoming a small shop owner asap
I love tech, but I am less-than-thrilled with the tech industry.
Best thing that ever happened to me, was being forced into early retirement, by reaching the doddering old age of 55.
I now write the software I want, and it has been working well for the last five years.
Best thing that ever happened to me, was being forced into early retirement, by reaching the doddering old age of 55.
I now write the software I want, and it has been working well for the last five years.
Exactly me. I’ve been scheming to “get out” of the tech industry for 15 years… but for me that means still doing tech without the horrible finance/techbro culture that made so many of my tech jobs unbearable.
What about working in a more fulfilling role in tech?
For example working on solutions to address climate change - https://workonclimate.org/
I mostly did, and it saved it as a passion and hobby to me. If your heart lies elsewhere, go, but dont dare ignore where and how tech increasingly steers the world.
Fulfilment is found by some people by improving spiritual health.
So cut out unwholesome bad things and replace them with good, love, kindness and beauty.
People find solace in God and meditation.
So cut out unwholesome bad things and replace them with good, love, kindness and beauty.
People find solace in God and meditation.
I don't think it's a coincidence I run into so many software engineers turn woodworker.
Could be any craft so long as you're coming up with the requirements yourself
i suppose, depends on the person and their interests. i found that woodworking is unique in that the builder benefits from building tools just like in software.
machining seems to be similar but i wonder if it's just more expensive.
machining seems to be similar but i wonder if it's just more expensive.
I seek fulfillment at home with my family, friends and hobbies! Work in tek is just something that I happen to find fund and pays the bills
I did, took a year off to backpack around the world. Didn’t think I’d come back to tech but I did with much renewed interest.
I did but then I realized it’s better to find something else that gives me fulfillment. In this case it’s 3D printing hobby.
I left tech for law. Now trying to jump back to tech.
Tech is arguably objectively better than almost every other industry.
Can elaborate if you want.
Tech is arguably objectively better than almost every other industry.
Can elaborate if you want.
Yes, please do elaborate
Sorry, this will likely get lost in the HN "no notifications" shuffle, but which part?
No worries - the part about tech being better than almost any other industry.
I guess I can only directly compare tech to law based on personal experience, but I strongly suspect that many--though not all--of the problems I see in law do apply across a range of large companies outside of what we would call "tech". What's more, I am specifically comparing being a biglaw associate to being a software engineer.
To be clear, when I see or use "tech" on HackerNews, I think modern (2006 and after) software companies that either started as startups that sought and received venture funding, or adopted a similar playbook, and which are culturally in that mode.
With those caveats/assumptions stated, the key ways in which tech is better:
1) People take the work seriously, but not themselves seriously. I find in law this isn't really the case. People are obviously serious about the work, especially in biglaw or dedicated nonprofit orgs, but there is a lot of pomposity in law, and a lot of just bullshit work politics stuff. This isn't totally absent from tech, ofc, esp in really big tech companies, but I think there is less of it, and also we have a discourse about how stupid/toxic it is, which is almost totally absent from law.
2) Obviously, tech is in the business of innovation and change, and other industries aren't going to match it, but in law in particular, there is such an active suspicion of it that it makes me feel point number 1; that they don't actually prioritize getting the stuff done. I do not think the perverse incentive of the billable hour fully accounts for this. I think a lot of it is plain arrogance and blindness. This one is definitely more law-specific; you could work at places like stodgy Fortune 500 companies, and they'd likely be way more open to innovation and change than law.
3) Absolutely no planning and everything just being a flurry of low-skill ad-hoc projects/tasks. Devs are the only ones who do sprint-planning and try to define what they are doing. Outside of tech, people abuse email instead of using things like Slack for certain communications (I know Slack can also be abused and become useless), and think that email is a project management tool. This might sound silly, and maybe devs hate standup (I used to) and PMs who spend a bunch of time hand-wringing in Jira or w/e, but I can tell you now that the entropy when you don't have that stuff is wild. Everyone knows that lawyers are high-strung and anxious and stressed. I can tell you the practice of law doesn't have to be that way, at least not all the time, but they make it way harder than it needs to be because they are incompetent and like feeling that what they do is hard when it isn't.
4) Skill: Software development is a skill and a hobby in a way that almost no other job can be. Lawyering involves skill too, but it is obscured by the fact they have no tooling and processes to allow them to focus on actual lawyering. Instead, because of the other stuff mentioned herein, such as lack of planning, lack of proper software tooling, etc., much of even the upper echelons of lawyering simply involves performing or managing very stupid secretarial bullshit tasks. Plus, one can't just sit down and lawyer if they want. There has to be a case etc. Can't just make one up.
5) Lack of autonomy and creativity. I guess this is more personal preference; I am a creative type, and I consider software engineering to be a creative job. That was my experience of it at least, and since I always worked at small startups, I had a good amount of freedom to get things done how I wanted and to exercise creativity within certain parameters. There is just none of that in a lot of other jobs. Bureaucracy governs most other jobs, esp law. In law in particular, no lawyer can truly be autonomous; at the end of the day, you are an agent for a client. This bothers me a lot, personally.
I had to write this on the fly, and I feel like it isn't comprehensive...
To be clear, when I see or use "tech" on HackerNews, I think modern (2006 and after) software companies that either started as startups that sought and received venture funding, or adopted a similar playbook, and which are culturally in that mode.
With those caveats/assumptions stated, the key ways in which tech is better:
1) People take the work seriously, but not themselves seriously. I find in law this isn't really the case. People are obviously serious about the work, especially in biglaw or dedicated nonprofit orgs, but there is a lot of pomposity in law, and a lot of just bullshit work politics stuff. This isn't totally absent from tech, ofc, esp in really big tech companies, but I think there is less of it, and also we have a discourse about how stupid/toxic it is, which is almost totally absent from law.
2) Obviously, tech is in the business of innovation and change, and other industries aren't going to match it, but in law in particular, there is such an active suspicion of it that it makes me feel point number 1; that they don't actually prioritize getting the stuff done. I do not think the perverse incentive of the billable hour fully accounts for this. I think a lot of it is plain arrogance and blindness. This one is definitely more law-specific; you could work at places like stodgy Fortune 500 companies, and they'd likely be way more open to innovation and change than law.
3) Absolutely no planning and everything just being a flurry of low-skill ad-hoc projects/tasks. Devs are the only ones who do sprint-planning and try to define what they are doing. Outside of tech, people abuse email instead of using things like Slack for certain communications (I know Slack can also be abused and become useless), and think that email is a project management tool. This might sound silly, and maybe devs hate standup (I used to) and PMs who spend a bunch of time hand-wringing in Jira or w/e, but I can tell you now that the entropy when you don't have that stuff is wild. Everyone knows that lawyers are high-strung and anxious and stressed. I can tell you the practice of law doesn't have to be that way, at least not all the time, but they make it way harder than it needs to be because they are incompetent and like feeling that what they do is hard when it isn't.
4) Skill: Software development is a skill and a hobby in a way that almost no other job can be. Lawyering involves skill too, but it is obscured by the fact they have no tooling and processes to allow them to focus on actual lawyering. Instead, because of the other stuff mentioned herein, such as lack of planning, lack of proper software tooling, etc., much of even the upper echelons of lawyering simply involves performing or managing very stupid secretarial bullshit tasks. Plus, one can't just sit down and lawyer if they want. There has to be a case etc. Can't just make one up.
5) Lack of autonomy and creativity. I guess this is more personal preference; I am a creative type, and I consider software engineering to be a creative job. That was my experience of it at least, and since I always worked at small startups, I had a good amount of freedom to get things done how I wanted and to exercise creativity within certain parameters. There is just none of that in a lot of other jobs. Bureaucracy governs most other jobs, esp law. In law in particular, no lawyer can truly be autonomous; at the end of the day, you are an agent for a client. This bothers me a lot, personally.
I had to write this on the fly, and I feel like it isn't comprehensive...
Yep, I just wish I could earn the same building cars or houses or wtfever.
That’s what’s keeping me here: the income.
That’s what’s keeping me here: the income.
I call the state of affairs “being pinned down with the money firehose.”
What even is “tech”?
Inb4 "No way I am just sooo fulfilled by improving ad targeting on a social media website."
Having left that slice of ad tech/market research: no one is fulfilled by it. Those who project the image that they are, are the most self-deceiving and self-hating.
Are you possibly projecting...? I have so many options in tech that I've never had to consider anything even close to ad targeting and/or social media work.
Not even a little. Never worked on that crap and never intend to. Just making fun of the typical HN Google/Meta/Twitter/etc sycophants.