Coins Stolen from Wallet(github.com)
github.com
Coins Stolen from Wallet
https://github.com/Chia-Network/chia-blockchain/discussions/14155
69 comments
Dude reuses a private key all over the place and then throws a fit when someone gets it and takes his money. This is like wanting a lock company to give you money when you bought a new house, didn't change the locks, and the previous owner walked in and took the money from under your mattress.
Did the github issue mention "Dude reuses a private key all over the place" or is that information from somewhere else?
I think every crypto wallet that is worth its bandwidth to download tries to educate users about the importance of keeping private keys secure.
That's like saying car companies are responsible to teach you how to drive safely.
Ford for example feels responsible for teaching drivers how to drive more safely:
https://corporate.ford.com/articles/community/ford-driving-s...
Similarly, my bank provides information on best practices for avoiding phishing attacks.
https://corporate.ford.com/articles/community/ford-driving-s...
Similarly, my bank provides information on best practices for avoiding phishing attacks.
Only tangentially related, but the practices of many banks have supported and enabled phishing attacks (5-10 years ago: crazy password policies, prevention of password managers), randomly special email addresses, random phone number verification sources.
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And here we see why crypto cannot replace the real money system for mainstream consumers.
Real people reuse passwords. They forget passwords. They accidentally get a virus on their computer. They get tricked by fraudsters.
Crypto's main selling point- complete decentralization- means there is so fixing mistakes, no means to undo fraudulent transactions. Real people don't want that.
Real people reuse passwords. They forget passwords. They accidentally get a virus on their computer. They get tricked by fraudsters.
Crypto's main selling point- complete decentralization- means there is so fixing mistakes, no means to undo fraudulent transactions. Real people don't want that.
Crypto's use cases are mostly illegal.
Ironically, if crypto was stable, it would better appeal to the general public. However, it would lose ground with its current user base.
The paradigm is incorrect. This generation of crypto will all, eventually, fail.
Ironically, if crypto was stable, it would better appeal to the general public. However, it would lose ground with its current user base.
The paradigm is incorrect. This generation of crypto will all, eventually, fail.
Well if power groups block it or make it harder to use you're going to be left with the people who don't care about said rules. Keep something illegal long enough and you're going to have some people breaking the law. Simple to point the finger at them after the fact and go "see? only criminals are doing that"
Also the fact that they use it means that it's working, if anything.
I also can't see a simple way for people who can control the value of money to just give up that power.
This is entirely incorrect. For any currency to have utility it must exchange for a predictable amount of goods. Otherwise, it unequivocally fails its stated use case. Crypto, as it stands, is an investment (*gambling) opportunity.
Frankly it takes the inconvenience of cash and couples it with technology the vast majority of its users could not accurately describe. If that's not enough, it's unusable for peer-to-peer payments without an immediate cash-out.
Crypto must be built around utility. Utility leads to stability. Stability leads to adoption. I'm not anti-crypto. I'm anti-whatever-the-fuck-this-is.
Frankly it takes the inconvenience of cash and couples it with technology the vast majority of its users could not accurately describe. If that's not enough, it's unusable for peer-to-peer payments without an immediate cash-out.
Crypto must be built around utility. Utility leads to stability. Stability leads to adoption. I'm not anti-crypto. I'm anti-whatever-the-fuck-this-is.
> real people
There's a lot of braindead crypto hate on HN, but these are very real and salient points.
I work in IT. I have to reset people's passwords after a 3day weekend. The other day, an employee typed their password into a phishing email because the real person they were emailing got compromised in the middle of their email exchange.
Crypto banking is simply a nonstarter for these people. There was an article on HN about how scammers cost 10B$ last year. A bank where mistakes are permanent and irreversible will never be mainstream.
There's a lot of braindead crypto hate on HN, but these are very real and salient points.
I work in IT. I have to reset people's passwords after a 3day weekend. The other day, an employee typed their password into a phishing email because the real person they were emailing got compromised in the middle of their email exchange.
Crypto banking is simply a nonstarter for these people. There was an article on HN about how scammers cost 10B$ last year. A bank where mistakes are permanent and irreversible will never be mainstream.
They also wire money to Nigerian fraudsters, get duped into bad house loans and crash their cars. Should we condemn everything as well?
The solution for all these and crypto, is education.
The solution for all these and crypto, is education.
> The solution for all these and crypto, is education.
I disagree. Educated people still make mistakes, and still become victims of fraud or viruses. A blanket statement like "we just need to educate people" is a nice way to say "no one would have this problem if they were as smart as I am". But the reality is you're just as vulnerable to a zero day or a well-executed scam.
There are many solutions. None are perfect. If you ask me, demanding everyone never make mistakes is a very poor solution compared to using systems that have failsafes.
I disagree. Educated people still make mistakes, and still become victims of fraud or viruses. A blanket statement like "we just need to educate people" is a nice way to say "no one would have this problem if they were as smart as I am". But the reality is you're just as vulnerable to a zero day or a well-executed scam.
There are many solutions. None are perfect. If you ask me, demanding everyone never make mistakes is a very poor solution compared to using systems that have failsafes.
I agree with your statement in some sense, but still ultimately disagree.
There are always going to be people who have bad things happen as a result of being misinformed, as much as there are always going to be failsafes that yet still fail.
In both cases, more and better education is a positive force.
There are always going to be people who have bad things happen as a result of being misinformed, as much as there are always going to be failsafes that yet still fail.
In both cases, more and better education is a positive force.
A friend of mine clean houses from deceased peoples, sometimes they find 1000's of euros and even Deutschmark...so much for forgetting passwords ;)
I'd be much more worried if a transaction could be reverted based on weaving a story with a screenshot.
Sounds a bit like the current banking system.
Weaving a story, which is backed up by the court system for loss recovery, is infinitely preferable to everyone throwing their hands up and blaming the end user.
If I store money in a mattress, and someone breaks in, I can report that to the police. Deposits in banks are federally backed - if there are bank hijinks, my savings are protected.
Crypto is worse in most ways (or overall worse) every way than what we already have. /edit
If I store money in a mattress, and someone breaks in, I can report that to the police. Deposits in banks are federally backed - if there are bank hijinks, my savings are protected.
Crypto is worse in most ways (or overall worse) every way than what we already have. /edit
> Crypto is worse in literally every way than what we already have
Too strong IMO. You could argue most ways or overall worse, but not "literally every way".
Too strong IMO. You could argue most ways or overall worse, but not "literally every way".
It is worse in every way tho.
It’s too complex, doesn’t allow for offline transactions and when it does the transaction has nothing to do with crypto (e.g. exchanging offline wallets) or it’s so convoluted and complex that almost no one can understand anything about it.
It’s tries to do too many things at once, currency/unit of account, an entire transactional system, system of record etc. And ironically any use cases that even have a shred of being actually adopted by the wider financial industry are to replace systems like swift not as a currency.
Anytime anyone asks about what the advantage is over the current monetary system and the current financial system any explanation becomes a 2 hour lecture, if you can’t explain what the advantage is in 2 sentences there isn’t one.
It’s too complex, doesn’t allow for offline transactions and when it does the transaction has nothing to do with crypto (e.g. exchanging offline wallets) or it’s so convoluted and complex that almost no one can understand anything about it.
It’s tries to do too many things at once, currency/unit of account, an entire transactional system, system of record etc. And ironically any use cases that even have a shred of being actually adopted by the wider financial industry are to replace systems like swift not as a currency.
Anytime anyone asks about what the advantage is over the current monetary system and the current financial system any explanation becomes a 2 hour lecture, if you can’t explain what the advantage is in 2 sentences there isn’t one.
You're right; my Californian is showing!
Edited.
Edited.
> Only I know the code, only I have access to my computer, I did not tell anyone my password.
> what's the problem with blocking it and returning the funds
> What's the point of seeing all existing transactions if they can't be stopped and reverted if stolen
Sounds exactly like the what the average person would think of crypto if it went mainstream.
> what's the problem with blocking it and returning the funds
> What's the point of seeing all existing transactions if they can't be stopped and reverted if stolen
Sounds exactly like the what the average person would think of crypto if it went mainstream.
Imagine if forgetting your bank account password meant your account was unrecoverable.
Or if a bug in the bank’s software meant you could lose your life savings.
Or if no transaction could be reversed, even in the case of obvious offline fraud?
All these things and more can be found in the incredible world of crypto.
Or if a bug in the bank’s software meant you could lose your life savings.
Or if no transaction could be reversed, even in the case of obvious offline fraud?
All these things and more can be found in the incredible world of crypto.
So I know a victim of a phishing scam. She got tricked into confirming a transaction from her bank account. She called her bank minutes after it happened, but they told her that they are not able to reverse the transaction. However, according to them they are investigating if they can do something for her based on what they call "good will".
Where the bank was based? Not all jurisdictions have the same banking standards.
Switzerland (I was as surprised as you are).
As far as I know, successful SEPA transactions are impossible to reverse. She was tricked during a weak moment into confirming via 2FA what she deemed a legit transaction, but as far as I can tell, she was on a fake banking website. The bank can claim willful negligence, which is hard (but maybe not impossible) to disprove.
As far as I know, successful SEPA transactions are impossible to reverse. She was tricked during a weak moment into confirming via 2FA what she deemed a legit transaction, but as far as I can tell, she was on a fake banking website. The bank can claim willful negligence, which is hard (but maybe not impossible) to disprove.
> She called her bank minutes after it happened, but they told her that they are not able to reverse the transaction
Which bank is this?
Why wouldn’t they be able to reverse the transaction?
What do the police say?
Obviously she has contacted the police? as (unlike crypto) the police can get involved.
Which bank is this?
Why wouldn’t they be able to reverse the transaction?
What do the police say?
Obviously she has contacted the police? as (unlike crypto) the police can get involved.
I don't understand where the bank analogies always come from. Crypto is not a bank. Holding crypto is like holding cash. If you put it under your bed and it's stolen, do you go to the government and complain about reverting the transaction?
If you want a third-party (bank) to secure your cash so you can do that with crypto, but then you're also exposed to the counterparty risk that comes with it. But that has nothing to do with crypto or fiat or whatever. If you don't trust yourself with managing the keys, put it on Coinbase or Kranken, centralized banks. If you want full control, put in your safe, i.e. manage your own key.
There are also decentralized alternatives that offer something in the middle, e.g. smart contract or social recovery wallets.
If you want a third-party (bank) to secure your cash so you can do that with crypto, but then you're also exposed to the counterparty risk that comes with it. But that has nothing to do with crypto or fiat or whatever. If you don't trust yourself with managing the keys, put it on Coinbase or Kranken, centralized banks. If you want full control, put in your safe, i.e. manage your own key.
There are also decentralized alternatives that offer something in the middle, e.g. smart contract or social recovery wallets.
> If you put it under your bed and it's stolen, do you go to the government and complain about reverting the transaction?
Literally yes. You go to law enforcement and, if they can figure out who stole it, the law allows for the return of your property.
Literally yes. You go to law enforcement and, if they can figure out who stole it, the law allows for the return of your property.
Banks have federally backed deposit insurance. If crypto was cash, it would be the worst form of it - at least if I bury dollar bills in a drum in a nearby forest, people have to do legwork to guess the location of the drum - they can't just guess numbers on a computer and when they guess right, everyone throws their hands up and goes "too bad".
If crypto was cash, it would be the worst form of cash imaginable.
I posit that crypto isn't cash, or if it is, it's the worst form of it.
If crypto was cash, it would be the worst form of cash imaginable.
I posit that crypto isn't cash, or if it is, it's the worst form of it.
Crypto puts every cyber criminal in the world at zero distance from your money. They can spend all the time they need trying to crack into your vault, arousing zero suspicion. The fact that cryptographic protocols are unbreakable (today) is only relevant if we knew there were no other the weaker links.
In this analogy (There in no such thing as a perfect analogy), the multiple hole digging is the password guess.. so like crypto
Imagine you lost your secret key and no one could decrypt your secret files. Bug or feature?
For me, I'm happy for my money to be stored in a bank. The bank keeps multiple back-ups of their books and is heavily regulated by our national government. If someone attempts to steal from me or commits fraud there's some recourse by notifying the bank and potentially having those criminal/fraudulent transactions reversed. No electronic inertia (i.e via crypto blockchain) for my bank to approach another and reverse a transaction.
There are also several security features to extracting money from my account: there's an account number, name, physical access to debit card, ccv, account password, OTP, pin numbers. All of which are missing in the typical crypto ccy net.
Furthermore, banks are forced to record identity information from their customers making it difficult for a nefarious actor to conceal their identity.
One advantage for crypo ccy is potentially making anonymous transactions. I don't really have anything to hide in that regard. The mundane shop at the supermarket, ebay or even buying drinks at the pub.. nothing very revealing.
If your life savings are at risk from losing a secret key or simply by someone nicking your secret key then I'd call this a "bug".
There are also several security features to extracting money from my account: there's an account number, name, physical access to debit card, ccv, account password, OTP, pin numbers. All of which are missing in the typical crypto ccy net.
Furthermore, banks are forced to record identity information from their customers making it difficult for a nefarious actor to conceal their identity.
One advantage for crypo ccy is potentially making anonymous transactions. I don't really have anything to hide in that regard. The mundane shop at the supermarket, ebay or even buying drinks at the pub.. nothing very revealing.
If your life savings are at risk from losing a secret key or simply by someone nicking your secret key then I'd call this a "bug".
Only a minor remark: (most) crypto is pseudonymous rather than anonymous. Your spending is public to all and takes little to effort to effectively stalk the more you use it for every day things.
Some could argue that your life savings is also at risk in a bank in high inflationary countries like Turkey or Lebanon. I think bitcoin's main argument in its favor is that its supply is not controlled by bankers.
All the risks associated with holding onto it is worth it to me. Anonymous transactions are not interesting to me personally but complete sovereignty is.
The chances of someone guessing your key are very low. But if you are worried about that then you put the funds into a multi-signature arrangement.
It certainly takes time to understand these things but it's worth it for the benefits it brings. Nobody can steal or tax your funds against your will. If it takes 6 months for an average person to wrap their head around all the concepts it's not the worst thing in the world. It takes 6 months, at least, to learn how to operate a tank. But it does slow adoption rates.
All the risks associated with holding onto it is worth it to me. Anonymous transactions are not interesting to me personally but complete sovereignty is.
The chances of someone guessing your key are very low. But if you are worried about that then you put the funds into a multi-signature arrangement.
It certainly takes time to understand these things but it's worth it for the benefits it brings. Nobody can steal or tax your funds against your will. If it takes 6 months for an average person to wrap their head around all the concepts it's not the worst thing in the world. It takes 6 months, at least, to learn how to operate a tank. But it does slow adoption rates.
"Some could argue that your life savings is also at risk in a bank in high inflationary countries like Turkey or Lebanon"
Convert your savings to physical assets (materials, tools)..
And guns, lots of guns.
Lol, he literally says he used same private key somewhere else
> but wallet mnemonic was used for farming forks more than a year ago
there you go
there you go
What does "farming forks" mean in this context? Or any context, for that matter.
I would guess fork means code fork where your same wallet works on that seperate network. Farm usually means something that produces a yield, which either means a loan interest or a ponzi scheme.
This is nothing new. Most are aware of the general issues with crypto currency security. Interesting comment from network code maintainer..
We maintain the blockchain, which facilitates the transactions, nothing more... If we had to revert your funds, we would have to convince the entire ecosystem to roll back the blockchain, to prior the block that moved your funds, and every transaction made since along with it... Not only that, it would then be a matter of fight between you and the thief of who got the first transaction out of your wallet...
We maintain the blockchain, which facilitates the transactions, nothing more... If we had to revert your funds, we would have to convince the entire ecosystem to roll back the blockchain, to prior the block that moved your funds, and every transaction made since along with it... Not only that, it would then be a matter of fight between you and the thief of who got the first transaction out of your wallet...
What's interesting about that comment? Isn't that basically how blockchain works?
Indeed it is how blockchain works within crypto currencies. I find it interesting that many participators (i.e. OP) don't understand how unsafe their coins are and this has to be explained as such by the commentator. Admittedly, perhaps not everyone finds interest in the same things as me.
Except that this has nothing to do with being "unsafe".
OP used his private key/mnemonics somewhere else and that's equivalent to giving your bank account + password to other people and then complaining when they take your money.
OP used his private key/mnemonics somewhere else and that's equivalent to giving your bank account + password to other people and then complaining when they take your money.
Isn’t immutability one of the features of the block chain? Why is this person asking for a reversal of the transactions?
I created and operated some blockchains in the past. From experience I can confirm this attitude in this gh issue… people do no want decentralised chains where they are fully responsible for their own security. Knowing that if you’re extremely unlucky a pirate could even guess your seed. I suppose it’s also the reason why many users keep their money in managed wallets such as the ones of exchanges…
So… not sure why all the hype on cryptocurrency. It often doesn’t do what they advertise they do, and neither does the market want them to do it…
So… not sure why all the hype on cryptocurrency. It often doesn’t do what they advertise they do, and neither does the market want them to do it…
The amount of funding crypto has supplied organized crime is staggering.
I really don't think so. It's estimated 3% to 5% of the entire world's GDP comes from organized crime. These are officials CIA numbers / estimates.
3% to 5% of the entire fucking world's GDP.
Cryptocurrencies are a tiny drop in the bucket. Tinier than tiny. Completely insignificant in the grand scheme of crime.
Organized crime existed way before Satoshi Nakamoto released Bitcoin to the world and shall, sadly, continue to exist long after that.
3% to 5% of the entire fucking world's GDP.
Cryptocurrencies are a tiny drop in the bucket. Tinier than tiny. Completely insignificant in the grand scheme of crime.
Organized crime existed way before Satoshi Nakamoto released Bitcoin to the world and shall, sadly, continue to exist long after that.
3% to 5% of the entire world's GDP cannot come from organized crime since by definition organized crime operates outside the economy and is unaccounted for: no respectable mobster keeps their double-entry bookkeeping tidy for the IRS.
3-5% of world GDP equivalent value being tied to organized crime could be possible, but seems like a low value, based on how many entities do you include into "organized crime": do you include all the rogue/terrorist states, do you include Russia, do you include money laundering banks like HSBC or ING, do you include tax evasion/fraud schemes (Double Irish With a Dutch Sandwich, or just a plain McSandwich [1]), do you include wage theft, and so forth.
[1] McDonald's to pay France $1.3 billion in tax fraud case https://www.business-standard.com/article/pti-stories/mcdona...
3-5% of world GDP equivalent value being tied to organized crime could be possible, but seems like a low value, based on how many entities do you include into "organized crime": do you include all the rogue/terrorist states, do you include Russia, do you include money laundering banks like HSBC or ING, do you include tax evasion/fraud schemes (Double Irish With a Dutch Sandwich, or just a plain McSandwich [1]), do you include wage theft, and so forth.
[1] McDonald's to pay France $1.3 billion in tax fraud case https://www.business-standard.com/article/pti-stories/mcdona...
First google result says the worlds GDP is 91 billion USD.
First google of (only) bitcoin value is 320 billion USD.
How much theft occur in bitcoin every year? I don't know. It is not insignificant by any imaginable measure though. And the amounts are absolute staggering.
It is a new avenue.
First google of (only) bitcoin value is 320 billion USD.
How much theft occur in bitcoin every year? I don't know. It is not insignificant by any imaginable measure though. And the amounts are absolute staggering.
It is a new avenue.
The world GDP is (according to my Google search) 95 TRILLION, not billion.
Market cap is also quite different from GDP, because market cap measures (sort-of) wealth. It’s like comparing the value of your house compared of your yearly income
Market cap is also quite different from GDP, because market cap measures (sort-of) wealth. It’s like comparing the value of your house compared of your yearly income
Yeah, I was tired and confused. Google, annoyingly always tries to localize everything (protip: don't do this, google are completely worthless at localization).
96 trillion in Swedish is confusingly enough "96 biljoner" and me not even noticing it was in Swedish.
Yeah I know the comparison is bad. My main point stands though.
96 trillion in Swedish is confusingly enough "96 biljoner" and me not even noticing it was in Swedish.
Yeah I know the comparison is bad. My main point stands though.
Money gotten through crime can (digitally) flow even through regular banks, see e.g Danske Bank, Swedbank and others in the Baltics. And locals will only start investigating when nudged by US government.
Money sans "managers" at the top is a system taking the long way to suicide. Money with incompetent managers is a ponzi scheme. Money with excellent management is a cult.
dude should go to centralize crypto not decentralize, maybe their support can help, e.g. Binance :)
There is no way to prove the recipient address isn't owned by the OP.
Blockchain police is on its way, stay still.