Why is Israel neutral amid the Russia-Ukraine war?(jpost.com)
jpost.com
Why is Israel neutral amid the Russia-Ukraine war?
https://www.jpost.com/jerusalem-report/article-702796
37 comments
> it will undermine the claim on occupied territories and Jerusalem.
No one buys this claim who is important, not the U.S, not the E.U, not China and not even Russia. Israel knows this very well, so I doubt that's the reason. Even many Israelis probably don't buy into this claim, they want to hold on to the territories due to security reasons and what happened after the Gaza withdrawal.
> Also there is significant amount of Russian agents in Israeli political landscape
Significant amount? Do you have some data to support this? You're also suggesting they are all Putin supporters which sounds like a reach to me. Many of them came to Israel not loving the Russian totalitarian experience.
No one buys this claim who is important, not the U.S, not the E.U, not China and not even Russia. Israel knows this very well, so I doubt that's the reason. Even many Israelis probably don't buy into this claim, they want to hold on to the territories due to security reasons and what happened after the Gaza withdrawal.
> Also there is significant amount of Russian agents in Israeli political landscape
Significant amount? Do you have some data to support this? You're also suggesting they are all Putin supporters which sounds like a reach to me. Many of them came to Israel not loving the Russian totalitarian experience.
>If Israel supports Ukraine, it will undermine the claim on occupied territories and Jerusalem
Literally, LOL.
>Also there is significant amount of Russian agents in Israeli political landscape (basically, all Russian speaking politicians).
You seems to conflate russian speaking with russians. I lived in Israel for 25 years, and now I tried to recalled how many people from Russia proper I know, and I cant even reach count of 5. Besides this, russian speaking politicians (all 3 or 5 of them ? most if not all of them not from russia) have no weight in Israel politics, especially in such a strategic decisions. As good example will be a strategic decision of smaller degree, when Gazprom wanted to get into partnerships in gas drilling companies in Israel but was booted out.
Literally, LOL.
>Also there is significant amount of Russian agents in Israeli political landscape (basically, all Russian speaking politicians).
You seems to conflate russian speaking with russians. I lived in Israel for 25 years, and now I tried to recalled how many people from Russia proper I know, and I cant even reach count of 5. Besides this, russian speaking politicians (all 3 or 5 of them ? most if not all of them not from russia) have no weight in Israel politics, especially in such a strategic decisions. As good example will be a strategic decision of smaller degree, when Gazprom wanted to get into partnerships in gas drilling companies in Israel but was booted out.
Israel is attack Iran's weapons manufacturing capacity, which is a help.
Otherwise? The answer is money. Almost every russian oligarch has bought Israeli citizenship.
Israel doesn't need to take sides It knows that Americans will never, ever, ever, ever enact any policies against Israel, because the political blowback would end their careers. We will always give welfare to Israel's army, and we will always make decisions in favor of Israel which are against American interests.
Israel knows there is good money to be made here.
Otherwise? The answer is money. Almost every russian oligarch has bought Israeli citizenship.
Israel doesn't need to take sides It knows that Americans will never, ever, ever, ever enact any policies against Israel, because the political blowback would end their careers. We will always give welfare to Israel's army, and we will always make decisions in favor of Israel which are against American interests.
Israel knows there is good money to be made here.
I can't read the article but on Twitter someone commented that it's because Russia could cause Israel a lot of trouble in Syria and Iran could cause them a lot of trouble in Lebanon, so Israel can't help Ukraine without suffering casualties. I don't know how true it is, but it makes sense.
Perhaps it is also because the Soviet Army liberated Auschwitz. And made the immense sacrifice to defeat the nazi reich, while Britain and US waited till 1944 to open the second front in Europe.
Soviet Union was an ally to Third Reich up to 1941.
Half truth is worse than a lie. But without half truths, what would happen to US efforts to rewrite the history?
Everyone in Europe knew in 1945 who defeated the nazis. And it was neither US nor Britain.
Everyone in Europe knew in 1945 who defeated the nazis. And it was neither US nor Britain.
First, let's remember that russia was an ally of Hitler's at the beginning of the war.
The USA, who apparently didn't help in the war whatsoever, needlessly gave russia the equivalent of $800bn in today's dollars to fight Hitler.
We also needlessly sacrificed 400,000 brave young men, to save Europe for the second time in 20 years.
Stalin made it clear that the USSR would have fallen without Lend-Lease .. until we told him it was time to start paying us back, then the party line changed to America being the western zionist aggressors.
Russia really screwed America as a thank you. They were given a 90% discount on their debt, with zero interest. It took them 70 years to pay it, which means they paid $900,000,000 back on a $250bn loan.
50,000 sailors died at the hands of Hitler's Navy specifically to block that trade. I guess their deaths were in vane? russians will probably say they never died and America never sent aid.
Here's a short list of the aid Americans gifted to Russia, who apparently didn't need any of it:
400,000 jeeps and trucks 14,000 airplanes 8,000 tractors 13,000 tanks More than 1.5 million blankets 15 million pairs of army boots 107,000 tons of cotton 2.7 million tons of petroleum products (to fuel airplanes, trucks, and tanks) 4.5 million tons of food
Clearly the west didn't do anything. russians fought off Hitler with their bare hands, with no supplies, killing millions of nazis with borscht. Europe and America didn't so much as throw rocks on the western front.
The USA, who apparently didn't help in the war whatsoever, needlessly gave russia the equivalent of $800bn in today's dollars to fight Hitler.
We also needlessly sacrificed 400,000 brave young men, to save Europe for the second time in 20 years.
Stalin made it clear that the USSR would have fallen without Lend-Lease .. until we told him it was time to start paying us back, then the party line changed to America being the western zionist aggressors.
Russia really screwed America as a thank you. They were given a 90% discount on their debt, with zero interest. It took them 70 years to pay it, which means they paid $900,000,000 back on a $250bn loan.
50,000 sailors died at the hands of Hitler's Navy specifically to block that trade. I guess their deaths were in vane? russians will probably say they never died and America never sent aid.
Here's a short list of the aid Americans gifted to Russia, who apparently didn't need any of it:
400,000 jeeps and trucks 14,000 airplanes 8,000 tractors 13,000 tanks More than 1.5 million blankets 15 million pairs of army boots 107,000 tons of cotton 2.7 million tons of petroleum products (to fuel airplanes, trucks, and tanks) 4.5 million tons of food
Clearly the west didn't do anything. russians fought off Hitler with their bare hands, with no supplies, killing millions of nazis with borscht. Europe and America didn't so much as throw rocks on the western front.
How is this a half truth? Soviet Union was allied with the Nazis, until the Nazis turned on them.
Or is something else taught in Russia?
Or is something else taught in Russia?
It is a felony in Russia to mention that WWII started in 1939. Only allowed narrative is The Great Patriotic War started in June 1941.
It's also a felony to mention Stalin's purges, the Bolshevik Pogroms in Poland, the Holodomyr where Stalin murdered 5 million Ukrainians,
Read up on Nazinsky Island where Stalin sent 5,000 "Kulaks" (subsistence farmers) who resisted forced collectivism. Over 3,000 died in 6 weeks from disease, starvation, bullets and cannibalism.
Stalin made my people eat each other, and it is illegal to mention this in the free, glorious russian empire.
Read up on Nazinsky Island where Stalin sent 5,000 "Kulaks" (subsistence farmers) who resisted forced collectivism. Over 3,000 died in 6 weeks from disease, starvation, bullets and cannibalism.
Stalin made my people eat each other, and it is illegal to mention this in the free, glorious russian empire.
I don't have to read about it. My grandfather is Holodomor survivor. My other grandmother was sent with family from Odesa to Birobidzhan (Far East).
Why don't you try to read the russian version of the wikipedia article on the Ribbentrop Molotov agreement? It is not as short as the catchy phrase "USSR and Germany were allies before 1941", but I think it gives a fuller picture of the events.
And while we are speaking about nazi allies here is one of the many links about the ties US had with nazi germany:
https://therealnews.com/d-day-how-the-us-supported-hitlers-r...
And then there is also the british royal family.
In my view, this gives a fuller description of the reality back then .
And while we are speaking about nazi allies here is one of the many links about the ties US had with nazi germany:
https://therealnews.com/d-day-how-the-us-supported-hitlers-r...
And then there is also the british royal family.
In my view, this gives a fuller description of the reality back then .
https://ru-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Польский_похо...
The way I read it, the Soviet Union partnered with Nazi Germany to invade Poland.
This wasn’t the Soviet Union invading Poland to protect Poland against the Nazi invasion. The Soviet Union attacked Poland and fought the Polish army in order to split Polish territories with Nazi Germany.
Not sure how that compares to Ford/IBM selling equipment to the Nazi regime prior to hostilities.
The way I read it, the Soviet Union partnered with Nazi Germany to invade Poland.
This wasn’t the Soviet Union invading Poland to protect Poland against the Nazi invasion. The Soviet Union attacked Poland and fought the Polish army in order to split Polish territories with Nazi Germany.
Not sure how that compares to Ford/IBM selling equipment to the Nazi regime prior to hostilities.
Don't forget Munich Agreement [1] that had happened a year before the respective strategic move on the part of USSR. There's no moral stance to hold against another nation's attemt to get a favourable position (for themselves) if it happens in a wake of and in accordance to their geo-political opponents' moves. The rest of Europe had been acting the same way whilst being busy preparing for a newly emerging conflict.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement
Yes, and justifies further the West’s attempts to arm Ukraine to prevent Russia’s territorial aspirations.
well... recently there been serious cleanup of history. this part is neglected and if somebody tries to say opposite they will be charged with glorification of nazism or with "altering historical truth about russia's win in wwII" (or something like this)
> Everyone in Europe knew in 1945 who defeated the nazis. And it was neither US nor Britain.
I mean, by the logic Russia applies in describing Ukraine, the Eastern front was a proxy war between the US and Nazi Germany (heck, the US aid program for Ukraine is literally named after the one for WWII that included Russia), so…
I mean, by the logic Russia applies in describing Ukraine, the Eastern front was a proxy war between the US and Nazi Germany (heck, the US aid program for Ukraine is literally named after the one for WWII that included Russia), so…
A Soviet army made up of also Ukrainians who suffered bigger losses proportionally than Russia.
Soviet army was not dividing people by nationality, they were all "soviet people".So why do you choose to do so now? (Actually, a rhetorical question).
Well there are estimates on Wikipedia but it's wrong to attribute WW2 sacrifice and victory of the USSR to one side of the current conflict.
I did not do that. But the fact is that Ukraine rehabilitates Bandera and other murderers and nazi collaborationists, has armed forces where people tatoo swastics on their skin, and has been promoting vicious antirussian sentiment well before 2014, ignored by the western media for a well understood reason (if we drop hypocrisy).
All this while for Russia the Second World War was and is one of the defining moments of their history and identity.
All this while for Russia the Second World War was and is one of the defining moments of their history and identity.
So what if there is anti-russian sentiment? russians have earned their reputation with the 10-15 million Ukrainians they have murdered over the past 150 years. We don't need neo-nazis to make us hate russians for what they have done to our families and friends and our country. I don't know anybody who didn't lose grandparents or great grandparents to Stalin's purges.
I have now lost 3 family members and 15 people from my graduating uni class.
Germany has neo-nazis in its military. russia's military is entirely conscripts and track-suit wearing, Neo-soviets covered in anti-Ukrainian tattoos.
America's military is at least 20% neo-nazi/extremist.
There are bad apples in every country.
Just like the USA saved russia and Europe from Hitler, we will save Europe and America from vladolf putler. You can all be cowards and sleep peacefully in your bed while I hear bombshells every night.
I have now lost 3 family members and 15 people from my graduating uni class.
Germany has neo-nazis in its military. russia's military is entirely conscripts and track-suit wearing, Neo-soviets covered in anti-Ukrainian tattoos.
America's military is at least 20% neo-nazi/extremist.
There are bad apples in every country.
Just like the USA saved russia and Europe from Hitler, we will save Europe and America from vladolf putler. You can all be cowards and sleep peacefully in your bed while I hear bombshells every night.
Bandera was jailed by Nazi for almost the whole duration of the war (1941-1945). His brother was murdered in German stalag. It doesn't look like collaboration with Nazi.
Soviet Union and Germany attacked Poland together (and started WWII). It's cooperation with Nazi.
If we look at the argument often used by Russians, that X is Nazi because he collaborated with Nazi, and then apply it to Soviet Union instead of Bandera, then Russians found thousands of arguments why this is not true.
Soviet Union and Germany attacked Poland together (and started WWII). It's cooperation with Nazi.
If we look at the argument often used by Russians, that X is Nazi because he collaborated with Nazi, and then apply it to Soviet Union instead of Bandera, then Russians found thousands of arguments why this is not true.
> Bandera was jailed by Nazi for almost the whole duration of the war
Let's not pretend that Bandera had to make his own hands dirty to make it count. I'll just leave it here:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mykola_Lebed
Let's not pretend that Bandera had to make his own hands dirty to make it count. I'll just leave it here:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mykola_Lebed
Bandera’s organisation committed war crimes and genocide while Bandera himself was imprisoned by the Nazis, due to his refusal to obey their demands. Was Bandera personally aware of and responsible for what his organisation did while he was not able to be directly in charge of it? I doubt that question is as easy to answer was you seem to think it is.
When somebody sacrifices their lives to protect their fellow countrymen, they deserve respect, no matter how awful their hearts are. Those people sacrificed their lives and didn't give a crap what you thought about them. They died saving their wives, their mothers, their children, and their fellow countrymen who they didn't even agree with.
vladolf putler has murdered at least 250,000 Ukrainians now. If you think the this is good, let's get together for coffee and discuss it. I will use on you the persuasive technique that Wagner uses on my people.
vladolf putler has murdered at least 250,000 Ukrainians now. If you think the this is good, let's get together for coffee and discuss it. I will use on you the persuasive technique that Wagner uses on my people.
> Those people sacrificed their lives and didn't give a crap what you thought about them.
You're not elected to represent any of those people, you're only speaking for yourself.
> They died saving their wives, their mothers, their children, and their fellow countrymen who they didn't even agree with. vladolf putler has murdered at least 250,000 Ukrainians now.
Ukraine closed its borders for the entire 18+ male population of the country in the early months of the war. These people have been deprived from their natural right to make their own decisions affecting their lives. Some of these people might be willing to leave the country with their families, but they got separated on the border by the state ruling. The decisions are now being made for them under a pretense of territorial preservation, similarly to the authoritative dictate of their enemy. The goals might be different, but the means are exactly the same. The territory has no use for the people died on it, these 250k Ukrainians will never be able to experience a joy of living on it either. And if you're among those who say that the goals of the current Ukrainian government justify the means it imposes on its population, I suggest that you prove that in trenches of Bakhmut rather than in the comment sections of HN.
> If you think the this is good, let's get together for coffee and discuss it. I will use on you the persuasive technique that Wagner uses on my people.
You should talk to Wagner directly if you find their methods adequate during a coffee break, they made their feedback contacts public long time ago.
You're not elected to represent any of those people, you're only speaking for yourself.
> They died saving their wives, their mothers, their children, and their fellow countrymen who they didn't even agree with. vladolf putler has murdered at least 250,000 Ukrainians now.
Ukraine closed its borders for the entire 18+ male population of the country in the early months of the war. These people have been deprived from their natural right to make their own decisions affecting their lives. Some of these people might be willing to leave the country with their families, but they got separated on the border by the state ruling. The decisions are now being made for them under a pretense of territorial preservation, similarly to the authoritative dictate of their enemy. The goals might be different, but the means are exactly the same. The territory has no use for the people died on it, these 250k Ukrainians will never be able to experience a joy of living on it either. And if you're among those who say that the goals of the current Ukrainian government justify the means it imposes on its population, I suggest that you prove that in trenches of Bakhmut rather than in the comment sections of HN.
> If you think the this is good, let's get together for coffee and discuss it. I will use on you the persuasive technique that Wagner uses on my people.
You should talk to Wagner directly if you find their methods adequate during a coffee break, they made their feedback contacts public long time ago.
> I doubt that question is as easy to answer was you seem to think it is.
The answer is actually an easy one: yes he was personally responsible for the movement he started and he was personally responsible for his organisation's deeds. Nazis imprisoned many other Nazis on a regular basis during the regime rule. Being imprisoned by the Nazis doesn't automatically nullify the convictions and aspirations of the imprisoned.
The answer is actually an easy one: yes he was personally responsible for the movement he started and he was personally responsible for his organisation's deeds. Nazis imprisoned many other Nazis on a regular basis during the regime rule. Being imprisoned by the Nazis doesn't automatically nullify the convictions and aspirations of the imprisoned.
> The answer is actually an easy one: yes he was personally responsible for the movement he started and he was personally responsible for his organisation's deeds.
Why assume that a person who founds an organisation is responsible for what it does when they are effectively no longer in control of it? We don’t make that automatic assumption in other areas - the founder of a company is not responsible for what the new CEO does after they retire.
Why assume that a person who founds an organisation is responsible for what it does when they are effectively no longer in control of it? We don’t make that automatic assumption in other areas - the founder of a company is not responsible for what the new CEO does after they retire.
they were all soviet slaves. Nobody joined without a gun to their head.
Maybe because it is not in their national interest to pick a side?
Article is paywalled, yet... Israel spent a lot of effort over past 20 years in preventing russia from supplying Iran and Syria with modern air-defense systems like S400 and portable anti-tank/aircraft systems as they tend to quickly end up in hands of hamas and hezballah.
Sending any type of weapons to Ukraine will most likely result in russia paying back in the same coin, hence all of the visible assistance to Ukraine is humanitarian aid. There is also invisible aid, as Israeli ambassador to Germany stated last week, but it's invisible.
There is also an issue of russia in Syria, where it can interfere with local Israeli operations. And once in a while russia just for giggles jams signals over north Israe.
Sending any type of weapons to Ukraine will most likely result in russia paying back in the same coin, hence all of the visible assistance to Ukraine is humanitarian aid. There is also invisible aid, as Israeli ambassador to Germany stated last week, but it's invisible.
There is also an issue of russia in Syria, where it can interfere with local Israeli operations. And once in a while russia just for giggles jams signals over north Israe.
If Israel supports Ukraine, it will undermine the claim on occupied territories and Jerusalem. If Israel supports Russia, it will risk to lose the support of USA (like Iraq after being ally of USA against Iran). Also there is significant amount of Russian agents in Israeli political landscape (basically, all Russian speaking politicians).