Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s reward circuits(news.uci.edu)
news.uci.edu
Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s reward circuits
https://news.uci.edu/2023/02/27/early-life-stress-can-disrupt-maturation-of-brains-reward-circuits-promoting-disorders/
127 comments
I recently read “the body keeps the score” and wow-ee the things we still don’t understand about the mind and body connection is crazy. Glad to see more studies diving into this type of stuff, and survivors talking about how powerful meditation/yoga and other mind-body connection therapy is for them. The more you can share your experience, the closer we are to finding valuable treatments for c-ptsd and similar trauma. Thank you.
Someone on HN many years ago recommended the book, “Learned Optimism” and said it was life-changing for them.
Read it, did the work. It was life changing. Seven years now with 0 anxiety after decades of having moderate to severe anxiety.
Read it, did the work. It was life changing. Seven years now with 0 anxiety after decades of having moderate to severe anxiety.
I think I might purchase this book. I have seen it mentioned on here a few times before.
If you do not mind, how did the book actually help you? Obviously, please do not feel obligated to answer if you are uncomfortable. I personally have found therapy to be nothing more than a substantial waste of time and money with perhaps a dash of cathartic release.
Before anyone suggests that I need to "find the right one." I've seen around 14 different providers in about 12 years -- just doesn't work for me.
If you do not mind, how did the book actually help you? Obviously, please do not feel obligated to answer if you are uncomfortable. I personally have found therapy to be nothing more than a substantial waste of time and money with perhaps a dash of cathartic release.
Before anyone suggests that I need to "find the right one." I've seen around 14 different providers in about 12 years -- just doesn't work for me.
My first therapist was a poor fit, and when I decided to make a change, I specifically sought out a trauma-aware therapist who specialized in cases that involved complex childhood trauma. This made all the difference for me, but it's possible the factors in play are not the same.
I'm also pretty interested in the book mentioned above. I should also mention that the book "Why Buddhism is True" is a book that really opened my eyes to some aspects of human experience that just hadn't made any sense to me up to that point. This is not a religious book, but rather an examination of the philosophical claims of Buddhism and mapping those onto a modern understanding of evolutionary psychology. I had just started meditating when I read this, and reading it convinced me fully that I was on the right path.
I've come to believe that this meditation practice is the single most important habit in my life at this point. It's a foundation for thinking more clearly, and thinking more clearly tends to sort out a bunch of other problems automatically.
I'm also pretty interested in the book mentioned above. I should also mention that the book "Why Buddhism is True" is a book that really opened my eyes to some aspects of human experience that just hadn't made any sense to me up to that point. This is not a religious book, but rather an examination of the philosophical claims of Buddhism and mapping those onto a modern understanding of evolutionary psychology. I had just started meditating when I read this, and reading it convinced me fully that I was on the right path.
I've come to believe that this meditation practice is the single most important habit in my life at this point. It's a foundation for thinking more clearly, and thinking more clearly tends to sort out a bunch of other problems automatically.
I have been somewhat exposed to various Buddhist teachings through various lectures. I am a huge fan Alan Watts, and I have watched almost every video on Youtube from the content creator Dr. K/Healthygamer.gg (person/channel name). I like a lot of what I have heard, and I have tried to implement some of it in my life.
I would not consider myself well versed in the practices by any means though. I will try to check out the book you mentioned as well. Hopefully, there is an audiobook version, that would be a huge help.
I am so happy that mediation has been beneficial to you. From practitioners of mediation, I have heard nothing but positive reviews. I really want to do it, and I have tried on multiple occasions, but I seriously cannot physically sit still long enough to do it. Trust me, I want to be a Jedi. Nothing would be cooler than that.
I have severe ADHD, and it makes things like reading books, mediating, and even therapy really difficult (amongst everything else). Of course, I am treated for it, but treatment is like drinking alcohol for depression. Sure, it kind of works in some ways, but it has its own world of problems.
I would not consider myself well versed in the practices by any means though. I will try to check out the book you mentioned as well. Hopefully, there is an audiobook version, that would be a huge help.
I am so happy that mediation has been beneficial to you. From practitioners of mediation, I have heard nothing but positive reviews. I really want to do it, and I have tried on multiple occasions, but I seriously cannot physically sit still long enough to do it. Trust me, I want to be a Jedi. Nothing would be cooler than that.
I have severe ADHD, and it makes things like reading books, mediating, and even therapy really difficult (amongst everything else). Of course, I am treated for it, but treatment is like drinking alcohol for depression. Sure, it kind of works in some ways, but it has its own world of problems.
"treatment is like drinking alcohol for depression. Sure, it kind of works in some ways, but it has its own world of problems." This does read as learned helplessness to me, a sympathetic stranger on the internet.
I encourage you to try a therapist listing "trauma" as a key area of interest. Regardless of your ADHD diagnosis. See haswell and my comments above. This is from someone who has had six or seven therapists and only two were effective. (Guess what those two had in common...)
Much love.
I encourage you to try a therapist listing "trauma" as a key area of interest. Regardless of your ADHD diagnosis. See haswell and my comments above. This is from someone who has had six or seven therapists and only two were effective. (Guess what those two had in common...)
Much love.
Seriously, thanks for the all the advice. You might be on to something.
I'll contact my insurance tomorrow and see what they can find me lol.
Thank you again, and much love back.
I'll contact my insurance tomorrow and see what they can find me lol.
Thank you again, and much love back.
The book teaches you the qualities of a pessimist vs an optimist.
For example, a pessimist thinks anything good that happens to them is temporary and impersonal. And they think that anything bad that happens to them is permanent and personal. An optimist is the opposite of that.
So if something good happens, a pessimist will think, “I just got lucky this time. I can’t count on good things happening in the future.” An optimist thinks, “of course I was able to make something good happen! Good things often happen for me.”
Then he teaches you a method similar to cognitive behavioral therapy to record and then dispute your negative thoughts on paper. I followed it for about 5 months and it honestly rewired my brain dramatically for the better.
For example, a pessimist thinks anything good that happens to them is temporary and impersonal. And they think that anything bad that happens to them is permanent and personal. An optimist is the opposite of that.
So if something good happens, a pessimist will think, “I just got lucky this time. I can’t count on good things happening in the future.” An optimist thinks, “of course I was able to make something good happen! Good things often happen for me.”
Then he teaches you a method similar to cognitive behavioral therapy to record and then dispute your negative thoughts on paper. I followed it for about 5 months and it honestly rewired my brain dramatically for the better.
One advice I've heard is to learn about the different types of therapist and focus on finding one whose method (and there are a lot!) clicks with you. It's very possible all of those 14 providers used methods that didn't work for you.
Thank you for this book recommendation. I read the book in the last two days and I am glad that I have a fresh perspective on this subject matter. Next step: do the work. Thanks again.
Hey that mirrors quite a bit of my own journey. Are there any specific kinds of yoga, meditation, or modalities of therapy that have had an outsized impact on your progress?
Hi, my 2 cents: it does not matter what kinds of yoga or types of therapy at this stage. Find a good therapist, find a yoga/meditation and/or exercise that you can follow regularly. that's it. We like to think about oh CBT is better on my anxiety, but EMDR is better on my Trauma, hey yoga nidra is better but vipassana is more comprehensive etc. these are overthinking, our brain is doing this for a cheap dopamine shots. Start somewhere, do regularly. thats all.
I appreciate the spirit of this comment, but I have to disagree on a few key points.
The kind of meditation is very important. There are some meditation practices that therapists urge people with trauma history to avoid, and Vipassana is the specific type of meditation that is recommended because of the clarifying nature of the practice. This is the type of meditation that has been subject to studies with positive outcomes.
Other forms of concentration practice may be a stepping stone to Vipassana if they help someone with concentration, but can also be a gateway to less ideal experiences for someone with trauma history. It can also be a path to nowhere if you stay on these other practices without understanding the differences between them.
Regarding therapy, the type of therapy matters too, and will depend on your history. EMDR is not widely accepted as treatment for trauma, and is not for everyone. I’ve experienced the power of EMDR directly and it helped me reduce the effects of more recent events (I was in a car accident that deeply unsettled me for a time), but trying to apply therapy to other events that had even tangential connotations with my past resulted in getting completely stuck during EMDR sessions. My current therapist fully supports the use of EMDR but has cautioned me against it for complex trauma history and my personal experiences confirm that this is good advice for me.
I think the most important thing here is that YMMV and do what works for you, but be thoughtful about it and understand the key differences between available treatment.
But even though therapy modalities can vary greatly depending on your past experiences, the recommended gateway into meditation is consistently Vipassana and from what I can tell this is for a good reason. This isn’t to say other forms can’t be useful and another comment pointed out some useful resources above, but there are definitely some paths that will lead nowhere.
The kind of meditation is very important. There are some meditation practices that therapists urge people with trauma history to avoid, and Vipassana is the specific type of meditation that is recommended because of the clarifying nature of the practice. This is the type of meditation that has been subject to studies with positive outcomes.
Other forms of concentration practice may be a stepping stone to Vipassana if they help someone with concentration, but can also be a gateway to less ideal experiences for someone with trauma history. It can also be a path to nowhere if you stay on these other practices without understanding the differences between them.
Regarding therapy, the type of therapy matters too, and will depend on your history. EMDR is not widely accepted as treatment for trauma, and is not for everyone. I’ve experienced the power of EMDR directly and it helped me reduce the effects of more recent events (I was in a car accident that deeply unsettled me for a time), but trying to apply therapy to other events that had even tangential connotations with my past resulted in getting completely stuck during EMDR sessions. My current therapist fully supports the use of EMDR but has cautioned me against it for complex trauma history and my personal experiences confirm that this is good advice for me.
I think the most important thing here is that YMMV and do what works for you, but be thoughtful about it and understand the key differences between available treatment.
But even though therapy modalities can vary greatly depending on your past experiences, the recommended gateway into meditation is consistently Vipassana and from what I can tell this is for a good reason. This isn’t to say other forms can’t be useful and another comment pointed out some useful resources above, but there are definitely some paths that will lead nowhere.
I think this is very good advice.
For one, having a trauma-aware therapist made a huge impact on my early progress. I specifically sought this out, and switched therapists to find the person I currently work with. Standard talk therapy with elements of CBT, but trauma-awareness was the difference between me melting down in session and not.
I've been using the same Waking Up app mentioned in the sibling comment. I started going down a bit of a rabbit hole on consciousness awhile back, and eventually that led me to Sam Harris, and his book "Waking Up" was a bit of a gateway for me. I then started using the app, which is like taking everything you read about in the book and having it carefully presented to you bit by bit as you go through the practice. It's the first app that actually made meditation make sense to me, and the results have been life changing for me. It's mindfulness meditation also known as Vipassana, or "seeing things as they really are".
Regarding Yoga, I've been using the "Yoga with Adriene" channel on YouTube. I'm not very experienced with this yet, but taking one of her 30 day journeys was a great way to get into it. I could feel my body get stronger bit by bit, and my awareness of the sensations in my body (something I've struggled with due to repressed trauma) has improved significantly.
I've been using the same Waking Up app mentioned in the sibling comment. I started going down a bit of a rabbit hole on consciousness awhile back, and eventually that led me to Sam Harris, and his book "Waking Up" was a bit of a gateway for me. I then started using the app, which is like taking everything you read about in the book and having it carefully presented to you bit by bit as you go through the practice. It's the first app that actually made meditation make sense to me, and the results have been life changing for me. It's mindfulness meditation also known as Vipassana, or "seeing things as they really are".
Regarding Yoga, I've been using the "Yoga with Adriene" channel on YouTube. I'm not very experienced with this yet, but taking one of her 30 day journeys was a great way to get into it. I could feel my body get stronger bit by bit, and my awareness of the sensations in my body (something I've struggled with due to repressed trauma) has improved significantly.
For ANYONE seeking a good therapist and bewildered by the options, I also suggest to start with a (licensed) therapist with a specialty in trauma. Even if you don't think you have trauma.
A typical therapist is almost zero-impact, you breeze through pre-prepared scripts and they nod and smile and you leave and back-pat and pay a bill. By typical, I mean in the center of the bell-curve. According to my lived experiences, and that of close friends.
A therapist with impact will sit and listen and smile, and then they'll simply repeat something you said or ask an innocent question or laugh, and this small gesture will cause a satori-like awareness of what was previously invisible to you.
I've never found a trauma-aware therapist incapable of reaching out and touching you deeply. This is the "I have rust on my resume, even if you don't code rust" of the therapist world.
[edit: If it needs to be said plainly, run like hell from any unlicensed practitioner who focuses on trauma.]
A typical therapist is almost zero-impact, you breeze through pre-prepared scripts and they nod and smile and you leave and back-pat and pay a bill. By typical, I mean in the center of the bell-curve. According to my lived experiences, and that of close friends.
A therapist with impact will sit and listen and smile, and then they'll simply repeat something you said or ask an innocent question or laugh, and this small gesture will cause a satori-like awareness of what was previously invisible to you.
I've never found a trauma-aware therapist incapable of reaching out and touching you deeply. This is the "I have rust on my resume, even if you don't code rust" of the therapist world.
[edit: If it needs to be said plainly, run like hell from any unlicensed practitioner who focuses on trauma.]
This I agree with. I found someone who was bring into my awareness the difference between the old and new so I could viscerally feel it throughout my system, which made it complete and it felt truly like something had healed.
I worked with a somatic therapist who was a former monk and we’d do meditations from time to time during sessions (although it was mostly talk therapy). Helped a ton!
I also have C-PTSD, and I have tried many ways of healing that trauma, including Tai Chi, Qi Gong, sazen meditaiton, and other forms of meditation, therapy, CBT, basically, anything I can find. I am in my mid-forties, so I've been seeking for a long time.
I wasn't looking for relief from C-PTSD when I converted to Eastern Orthodox Christianity about three years ago, but since I have joined that church, participating in Divine Liturgy at least once a week, and beginning and ending my day with prayer (following the techniques and patterns my priest has taught me), my whole life has been transformed. Not only my life, but the lives of my family are healing dramatically as well. I can't put it into words adequately, but the difference between my life now and just three years ago is so stark that I hardly feel like the same person.
Nothing else has even come close to the impact and depth of healing I have experienced. Other people have shared their experience with "Eastern religions", and I just wanted to share my experiences with you from another mystical tradition that isn't very familiar to most people.
I wasn't looking for relief from C-PTSD when I converted to Eastern Orthodox Christianity about three years ago, but since I have joined that church, participating in Divine Liturgy at least once a week, and beginning and ending my day with prayer (following the techniques and patterns my priest has taught me), my whole life has been transformed. Not only my life, but the lives of my family are healing dramatically as well. I can't put it into words adequately, but the difference between my life now and just three years ago is so stark that I hardly feel like the same person.
Nothing else has even come close to the impact and depth of healing I have experienced. Other people have shared their experience with "Eastern religions", and I just wanted to share my experiences with you from another mystical tradition that isn't very familiar to most people.
I could recommend Sam Harris and his “Waking Up” App. Starting meditation practice with him has changed my life. You can check the app out here - https://dynamic.wakingup.com/shareOpenAccess/SC4545206
I'm going to disagree with the sibling comment that it doesn't matter what meditation you do. I'm a scientist at heart and my science of interest is exploring things like meditation and consciousness, and have been doing it very actively for a decade. You can apply as much mysticism to it as you want, but there is nothing inherently "magical" about any of this anymore or less than there is when eating toast.
I've tried many different meditations with many different teachers and guides and books, and the ones that I have found most effective for me personally and for people that I have taught, in order of how I'd suggest them:
• Zazen is a simple but hugely impactful meditation, and you can do it anywhere with any length of time as it doesn't require "zoning out". It can be very helpful to sit to do it until you get the hang of it, though. (read Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, it's an easy but meaningful read).
• the practices in The Mind Illuminated book - neuroscientist + meditator modernizes and de-mysticizes older paths. Anytime you get stuck, this is a great way to get unstuck. Find where you are in the journey, and start practicing what he suggests for where you are. It makes a big difference.
• Neti Neti meditation (any thoughts or experiences that arise in meditation, you think "not that" as in "if I can think it, I am not that"). This doesn't need any "lead in" so if you only have a couple of minutes to sit this can be a great way to be impactful during a short time.
• the Brahmavihārā https://accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel006... this is the best practice I've found for bringing the inner work you do out into the world as a more kind and uplifting human. I think this is best done when you have a while to sit; I have found that the longer you do it in a session, the more densely it gets integrated.
Side note, if you want to explore your inner experience in a more active way, try finding a local meet up that does shamanic drumming with a guide. I know this sounds weird, but our subconscious is all about symbolism, and if you can play along it's basically a short and gentle drug-free psychedelic trip in a good setting that can be very rewarding.
I've tried many different meditations with many different teachers and guides and books, and the ones that I have found most effective for me personally and for people that I have taught, in order of how I'd suggest them:
• Zazen is a simple but hugely impactful meditation, and you can do it anywhere with any length of time as it doesn't require "zoning out". It can be very helpful to sit to do it until you get the hang of it, though. (read Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, it's an easy but meaningful read).
• the practices in The Mind Illuminated book - neuroscientist + meditator modernizes and de-mysticizes older paths. Anytime you get stuck, this is a great way to get unstuck. Find where you are in the journey, and start practicing what he suggests for where you are. It makes a big difference.
• Neti Neti meditation (any thoughts or experiences that arise in meditation, you think "not that" as in "if I can think it, I am not that"). This doesn't need any "lead in" so if you only have a couple of minutes to sit this can be a great way to be impactful during a short time.
• the Brahmavihārā https://accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel006... this is the best practice I've found for bringing the inner work you do out into the world as a more kind and uplifting human. I think this is best done when you have a while to sit; I have found that the longer you do it in a session, the more densely it gets integrated.
Side note, if you want to explore your inner experience in a more active way, try finding a local meet up that does shamanic drumming with a guide. I know this sounds weird, but our subconscious is all about symbolism, and if you can play along it's basically a short and gentle drug-free psychedelic trip in a good setting that can be very rewarding.
> Side note, if you want to explore your inner experience in a more active way, try finding a local meet up that does shamanic drumming with a guide. I know this sounds weird, but our subconscious is all about symbolism, and if you can play along it's basically a short and gentle drug-free psychedelic trip in a good setting that can be very rewarding.
I am really intrigued by this (and I don't find it excessively weird). Would you have any material to recommend if one wants to understand how it works and why before actually trying it?
I am really intrigued by this (and I don't find it excessively weird). Would you have any material to recommend if one wants to understand how it works and why before actually trying it?
I recommend the online courses (one of which is free) [1], and videos [2] on YouTube made by Anna Runkle, the "Crappy Childhood Fairy".
[1] https://courses.crappychildhoodfairy.com/daily-practice [2] https://crappychildhoodfairy.com/videos/
Others in the thread have recommended "The Body Keeps the Score", which I also recommend. It is available on Audible as an audiobook as well.
Other books I recommend:
"Self-Parenting: The Complete Guide to Your Inner Conversations" by John K Pollard and Linda Nusbaum.
"How to be an Adult in Relationships" by David Richo
"The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness, and Healing in a Toxic Culture" by Gabor Mate
"When the Body Says No" by Gabor Mate
I practice Mindful Qi Gong (healing movement + meditation) once a week as a part of a 2-hour class, as well as independently on an irregular schedule. It has helped significantly to deal with stress.
I think that for people struggling with issues like CPTSD, ignorance is the first, and largest barrier to healing / recovery / improving. We grow up and enter the adult world and often in many ways "escape" our stressful / traumatic childhoods only to start the process of creating our own trauma and stress as young adults. As we enter adulthood, we may be consciously or subconsciously masking our feelings / hide our pain / run from dealing with our emotions and issues because we want desperately to leave all that behind us. This "running away" may actually compound our problems, leading to destructive behaviors such as substance abuse. Gabor Mate, among others, presents a compelling case that the majority of the people we see on the street struggling with addictions and mental health issues may not have ended up there if they had received proper care and healing, even as adults. If only they had, perhaps, in their more lucid, clearer-thinking, younger days come to understand that they had the need and possibility for healing. The pure ignorance we have about this topic in our society is staggering, considering the widespread impact childhood trauma has on our lives.
I certainly wish someone had sat me down in my 20s and told me directly: "You had a crappy childhood, that sucks. And the effects of the trauma on your physiology and psychology may limit you for the rest of your life. However, there is good news: Now you're an adult and healing is possible."
[1] https://courses.crappychildhoodfairy.com/daily-practice [2] https://crappychildhoodfairy.com/videos/
Others in the thread have recommended "The Body Keeps the Score", which I also recommend. It is available on Audible as an audiobook as well.
Other books I recommend:
"Self-Parenting: The Complete Guide to Your Inner Conversations" by John K Pollard and Linda Nusbaum.
"How to be an Adult in Relationships" by David Richo
"The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness, and Healing in a Toxic Culture" by Gabor Mate
"When the Body Says No" by Gabor Mate
I practice Mindful Qi Gong (healing movement + meditation) once a week as a part of a 2-hour class, as well as independently on an irregular schedule. It has helped significantly to deal with stress.
I think that for people struggling with issues like CPTSD, ignorance is the first, and largest barrier to healing / recovery / improving. We grow up and enter the adult world and often in many ways "escape" our stressful / traumatic childhoods only to start the process of creating our own trauma and stress as young adults. As we enter adulthood, we may be consciously or subconsciously masking our feelings / hide our pain / run from dealing with our emotions and issues because we want desperately to leave all that behind us. This "running away" may actually compound our problems, leading to destructive behaviors such as substance abuse. Gabor Mate, among others, presents a compelling case that the majority of the people we see on the street struggling with addictions and mental health issues may not have ended up there if they had received proper care and healing, even as adults. If only they had, perhaps, in their more lucid, clearer-thinking, younger days come to understand that they had the need and possibility for healing. The pure ignorance we have about this topic in our society is staggering, considering the widespread impact childhood trauma has on our lives.
I certainly wish someone had sat me down in my 20s and told me directly: "You had a crappy childhood, that sucks. And the effects of the trauma on your physiology and psychology may limit you for the rest of your life. However, there is good news: Now you're an adult and healing is possible."
checkout Kriya yoga
EMDR will help if you’ve not tried it. I am assuming you have though since you mention complex ptsd.
I’ve been lucky enough to suffer from both covert and overt depression. Behind my anger is sadness and that is depression. We learn a lot of this from our parents who probably suffered similarly themselves which is a form of chronic ptsd.
I’ve been lucky enough to suffer from both covert and overt depression. Behind my anger is sadness and that is depression. We learn a lot of this from our parents who probably suffered similarly themselves which is a form of chronic ptsd.
Similar experience here. EMDR with a practitioner who knows to apply technique was life changing for me. Shedding decades of stress, anxiety and unprocessed baggage via this technique has opened the way for further self improvement.
For anyone who has tried CBT or other traditional therapy and hasnt seen results it could be worth looking into. YMMV as I know people close to me who have dealt with similar early-life trauma and have been better served by other techiques
For anyone who has tried CBT or other traditional therapy and hasnt seen results it could be worth looking into. YMMV as I know people close to me who have dealt with similar early-life trauma and have been better served by other techiques
Yeah it’s a great way to reprogram the brain.
I got close to nothing from EMDR.
The only thing that works for me right now is running, but it's working fairly well so hey.
The only thing that works for me right now is running, but it's working fairly well so hey.
similar, any type of therapy has been a waste of time and money for me. Exercise on the other hand just makes me feel good.
Exercise is a long term solution for sure. The act of doing vs thinking can be liberating.
Exercise is essentially the same as EMDR (bilateral movement) plus heroin (endorphins as in endogenous morphine peptides). Don’t fool yourself into thinking otherwise, otherwise you too will be a common churchgoer.
EMDR is fantastic for PTSD and helps with some C-PTSD, but for a lot of people with C-PTSD, it only retraumatises, and a lot of EMDR practitioners seem unaware of this. Internal family systems can be a better choice for C-PTSD sufferers.
I’m firmly in the “retraumatizes” camp.
EMDR felt like magic when dealing with the aftermath of a car accident, but sent me into a tailspin for any subject even tangentially related to my past.
YMMV.
EMDR felt like magic when dealing with the aftermath of a car accident, but sent me into a tailspin for any subject even tangentially related to my past.
YMMV.
Weird. That sounds rare.
Not as rare as you might think. EMDR is not widely accepted or recommended as treatment for persistent/long term complex trauma, when it is, such treatments are modified to fit a broader treatment regimen. Even then, it continues to be a controversial form of treatment for trauma.
This isn’t to say that people should not consider EMDR, but if they do, don’t just seek out an EMDR practitioner and expect a quick fix, but ensure the practitioner is trauma-aware and skilled in adapting treatment to the specific needs of patients with trauma histories, and it’s part of a broader treatment plan.
This isn’t to say that people should not consider EMDR, but if they do, don’t just seek out an EMDR practitioner and expect a quick fix, but ensure the practitioner is trauma-aware and skilled in adapting treatment to the specific needs of patients with trauma histories, and it’s part of a broader treatment plan.
EMDR is well accepted and not controversial.
https://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/treat/docs/mhp_veterans...
https://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/treat/docs/mhp_veterans...
As the sibling pointed out, C-PTSD and PTSD are not the same thing. When EMDR is incorporated for C-PTSD, there are some aspects that are modified based on the trauma history, and some cases where EMDR cannot be attempted until dissociation issues have been addressed.
It is this need for modification and the prerequisite work (sometimes the long/hard kind of work) that makes it less clear-cut as a treatment for this form of trauma.
The EMDR practitioner I worked with made me aware of this as did my regular therapist, and most C-PTSD-aware EMDR info you can find online will also explain this distinction and the necessary modifications/prerequisites.
It is this need for modification and the prerequisite work (sometimes the long/hard kind of work) that makes it less clear-cut as a treatment for this form of trauma.
The EMDR practitioner I worked with made me aware of this as did my regular therapist, and most C-PTSD-aware EMDR info you can find online will also explain this distinction and the necessary modifications/prerequisites.
You're confusing CPTSD and PTSD. Your link talks about EMDR for PTSD, not CPTSD. The post you're replying to is talking about CPTSD. They can be quite different.
Would you mind sharing more about what's helped you?
Maybe stuff other than what you listed, but mostly more details on things like what type of therapy has helped (CBT/DBT?), or what part of Buddhist philosophy you found most useful?
Thanks in advance!
Maybe stuff other than what you listed, but mostly more details on things like what type of therapy has helped (CBT/DBT?), or what part of Buddhist philosophy you found most useful?
Thanks in advance!
I don’t like the phrase “normal reward behaviors” in this article.
We don’t live in “normal” conditions relative to our evolutionary history.
Maybe these responses are adaptive and provide a fitness advantage under historically normal conditions even if they appear maladaptive in the current environment.
We don’t live in “normal” conditions relative to our evolutionary history.
Maybe these responses are adaptive and provide a fitness advantage under historically normal conditions even if they appear maladaptive in the current environment.
> I don’t like the phrase “normal reward behaviors” in this article... Maybe these responses are adaptive and provide a fitness advantage under historically normal conditions even if they appear maladaptive in the current environment.
Agreed - the cant of this article could just as easily be "environmental factors during formative years influence behavior at maturity" without representing a particular set of responses as "normal" or "abnormal". I'm surprised they didn't use adaptive/maladaptive, like you do; it seems more appropriate.
Agreed - the cant of this article could just as easily be "environmental factors during formative years influence behavior at maturity" without representing a particular set of responses as "normal" or "abnormal". I'm surprised they didn't use adaptive/maladaptive, like you do; it seems more appropriate.
> Maybe these responses are adaptive and provide a fitness advantage under historically normal conditions even if they appear maladaptive in the current environment.
It's equally possible that the responses are maladaptive and provide a fitness disadvantage under historically normal and current conditions too.
Evolution is not always well optimized, and sometimes "bugs" make it through. One just needs to be fit enough to reproduce -- nothing else matters after that.
It's equally possible that the responses are maladaptive and provide a fitness disadvantage under historically normal and current conditions too.
Evolution is not always well optimized, and sometimes "bugs" make it through. One just needs to be fit enough to reproduce -- nothing else matters after that.
I once saw someone describe evolution as a lazy man. Because evolution doesn't optimize for "the best", it optimizes for "good enough".
The one description that makes most sense to me is the claim that evolution is not a god. It does not reason through issues, it does not have conscience and it definitely does not have goals.
It is just a thing that happens through random changes and culling out very bad experiments. The mutation just have to be not too bad. And even bad one can survive forever if not everyone with it dies.
It is just a thing that happens through random changes and culling out very bad experiments. The mutation just have to be not too bad. And even bad one can survive forever if not everyone with it dies.
> The mutation just have to be not too bad. And even bad one can survive forever if not everyone with it dies.
Exactly. I have green eyes which is technically a genetic mutation. I do not think it provides any advantages, but it also causes no harms. It just is what it is.
Exactly. I have green eyes which is technically a genetic mutation. I do not think it provides any advantages, but it also causes no harms. It just is what it is.
I can believe this, for my brain has also optimized similarly. Perhaps, I have evolved? (JK)
This is exactly what I was thinking, and the article even seems to affirm it:
"As adults, the early adversity-experiencing male mice had little interest in sweet foods or sex cues compared to typically reared mice. In contrast, adversity-experiencing females craved rich, sweet food. Inhibiting the pathway restored normal reward behaviors in males, yet it had no effect in females."
Okay, so they're not going to be obese and spending every night swiping right? Our bodies, minds, and everything about us is evolving and changing, and this will never end. If you take some point in the past as "normal" and everything else as "abnormal" then you simply dedicate yourself to trying to stop potentially adaptive changes. And somehow I trust evolution much more than psychology.
Of course I'm handwaving away this sentence, "Impaired function of this circuit is thought to underlie several major disorders, such as depression, substance abuse and excessive risk-taking." But I'd observe that 'thought to underlie' is an exceptionally weak phrasing, and the balance between pros and cons was seemingly left completely unconsidered. Obviously a genetic craving for rich, sweet food is obviously corpulently maladaptive in modern society, even if it would probably have been neutral to beneficial in the past.
"As adults, the early adversity-experiencing male mice had little interest in sweet foods or sex cues compared to typically reared mice. In contrast, adversity-experiencing females craved rich, sweet food. Inhibiting the pathway restored normal reward behaviors in males, yet it had no effect in females."
Okay, so they're not going to be obese and spending every night swiping right? Our bodies, minds, and everything about us is evolving and changing, and this will never end. If you take some point in the past as "normal" and everything else as "abnormal" then you simply dedicate yourself to trying to stop potentially adaptive changes. And somehow I trust evolution much more than psychology.
Of course I'm handwaving away this sentence, "Impaired function of this circuit is thought to underlie several major disorders, such as depression, substance abuse and excessive risk-taking." But I'd observe that 'thought to underlie' is an exceptionally weak phrasing, and the balance between pros and cons was seemingly left completely unconsidered. Obviously a genetic craving for rich, sweet food is obviously corpulently maladaptive in modern society, even if it would probably have been neutral to beneficial in the past.
This resonates with my experience of learned helplessness, especially when instilled within the first two years of life.
The analogy that comes to mind is how a baby elephant, tied to a stake, can't escape the rope and eventually accepts he is stuck where the rope lets him wander. As the elephant grows large enough to overpower the rope and walk away, he has already stopped trying, so he remains stuck.
I'm not sure if this is a true story, but it stays with me.
It seems reasonable to conclude there is a physical impact on brain development.
The analogy that comes to mind is how a baby elephant, tied to a stake, can't escape the rope and eventually accepts he is stuck where the rope lets him wander. As the elephant grows large enough to overpower the rope and walk away, he has already stopped trying, so he remains stuck.
I'm not sure if this is a true story, but it stays with me.
It seems reasonable to conclude there is a physical impact on brain development.
We have twins that are approaching 4. For a long time we had a latch on the refrigerator because, shortly before they turned 2, they would get into the fridge and make a mess, leave the doors open, etc.
We recently bought a new fridge and haven't put a latch on it. They don't understand that they can open it on their own yet and we haven't told them. Observing this reminded me of the elephant story and it's made me wonder if this is something that could affect them later in life.
We recently bought a new fridge and haven't put a latch on it. They don't understand that they can open it on their own yet and we haven't told them. Observing this reminded me of the elephant story and it's made me wonder if this is something that could affect them later in life.
> made me wonder if this is something that could affect them later in life.
There are plenty of study's that carried out experiments into learned helplessness[1,2] whats interesting now is how its being associated with things like depression [3] later on in life.
I'd go so far to say people who have suicided themselves or attempted could be because of their childhood abusers and certainly in the past, there was no evidence back then and very little surveillance, so clever well connected individuals could get away with alot.
I know here in the UK the Police and NHS do not investigate attempted suicides, even when they have been told. In fact, I do know a GP could tell you how to suicide yourself with off the shelf ingredients, which might seem to be against the hippocratic oath, but who is that GP prioritising, the patient they have just told to suicide themselves or their other patients?
Words can be so vague especially in the legal system.
I can remember my time as a toddler in Terry's nappy's with rubber pants, that chaffed the groin area, and with todays improved food standards and food diversity, access to multi vitamins, I think the younger generation will find it easier to remember their childhood.
In the case of childhood abuse, some just regress or some come out fighting, the legal system is very skewed here because it only wants to punish the individual, it doesnt want to take responsibility for allowing the abuse to occur by not teaching kids law in order to avoid abuse. Even the state doesnt hold primary school teachers to account, but then the state also carries out secret experiments on kids on all ages, some of them pre-emptive in order to control individuals later on in life based on the existing theories of the day.
Things might be better in the US by virtue of having private healthcare, but state healthcare like the UK's NHS enables the state to carry out more experimentation in secret.
The NHS is not all that its cracked up to be, far from it, but then most users dont know nothing about healthcare which is why they are using it in the first place.
All parts of the UK state data share whilst denying it until they have to come up with something called parallel construction to use a US legal term.
Bottom line is, with kids every action has a reaction and some things, your beliefs they might choose to disagree with later on in life.
Factors like are they kept busy with their own adult life or do they have plenty of time on their hands to reflect, will also determine how much their agree with from their childhood.
Above all else, make sure you have a relationship with them so that they can talk to you. I didnt have a relationship with any adult where I could talk to them about stuff, and its only later on in life, that you come to realise especially when aware of law that criminals acts were carried out on you and other elements of your childhood were stolen. I think this is why law is not taught to kids, it keeps those pontificating lawyers and judges in employment, but it doesnt tackle the causes of crime, it just enables it by keeping kids innocent and in the dark. Taking away that cotton wool you want to wrap kids in, is a very delicate matter, too much cotton wool, will set them up for exploitation later on in life, take it away too quickly and that could be traumatic if not a path that some choose to walk. Its a tightrope to walk.
I'd also be wary about moving them around to different schools and different parts of the country. Its a legal form of isolation when considering how the new kid is bullied at school often overseen by teachers and can be used to isolate people later on in life.
Its probably why the Police and Military move people around, breaking down friends networks, forcing new friends networks on people. Its that divide and conqueror mentality which has existed since before Roman times.
I think a good approach is to not be dictatorial, which can be simple instructions of dont do this, dont do that, be quiet without the explainantions in a concept understandable format. Thats hard when kids are young, but explain why something can or cant be done. That was harder in the past because there was no internet, but with the internet today, its easier to find out things. Example, putting things in mouths, explaining the concept of germs and how some of them like bacteria can go dormant in the body (biofilms) desite antibiotics and some viruses never leave the body (herpes), and some viruses get into parts of the body where the adaptive immune system cant go and importantly, clinicians cant test for their existence except at the time of autopsy.
I know the medical profession like to portray themselves as experts, but if you look at how medical theories are being rewritten all they time especially now when new tech becomes available or cheaper to use to allow more testing and data acquisition occurs, that's when you realise even dominant personalities can skew the interpretation of data.
[1] 1975 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1150935/
[2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Learned+helplessness
[3] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11522522/
There are plenty of study's that carried out experiments into learned helplessness[1,2] whats interesting now is how its being associated with things like depression [3] later on in life.
I'd go so far to say people who have suicided themselves or attempted could be because of their childhood abusers and certainly in the past, there was no evidence back then and very little surveillance, so clever well connected individuals could get away with alot.
I know here in the UK the Police and NHS do not investigate attempted suicides, even when they have been told. In fact, I do know a GP could tell you how to suicide yourself with off the shelf ingredients, which might seem to be against the hippocratic oath, but who is that GP prioritising, the patient they have just told to suicide themselves or their other patients?
Words can be so vague especially in the legal system.
I can remember my time as a toddler in Terry's nappy's with rubber pants, that chaffed the groin area, and with todays improved food standards and food diversity, access to multi vitamins, I think the younger generation will find it easier to remember their childhood.
In the case of childhood abuse, some just regress or some come out fighting, the legal system is very skewed here because it only wants to punish the individual, it doesnt want to take responsibility for allowing the abuse to occur by not teaching kids law in order to avoid abuse. Even the state doesnt hold primary school teachers to account, but then the state also carries out secret experiments on kids on all ages, some of them pre-emptive in order to control individuals later on in life based on the existing theories of the day.
Things might be better in the US by virtue of having private healthcare, but state healthcare like the UK's NHS enables the state to carry out more experimentation in secret.
The NHS is not all that its cracked up to be, far from it, but then most users dont know nothing about healthcare which is why they are using it in the first place.
All parts of the UK state data share whilst denying it until they have to come up with something called parallel construction to use a US legal term.
Bottom line is, with kids every action has a reaction and some things, your beliefs they might choose to disagree with later on in life.
Factors like are they kept busy with their own adult life or do they have plenty of time on their hands to reflect, will also determine how much their agree with from their childhood.
Above all else, make sure you have a relationship with them so that they can talk to you. I didnt have a relationship with any adult where I could talk to them about stuff, and its only later on in life, that you come to realise especially when aware of law that criminals acts were carried out on you and other elements of your childhood were stolen. I think this is why law is not taught to kids, it keeps those pontificating lawyers and judges in employment, but it doesnt tackle the causes of crime, it just enables it by keeping kids innocent and in the dark. Taking away that cotton wool you want to wrap kids in, is a very delicate matter, too much cotton wool, will set them up for exploitation later on in life, take it away too quickly and that could be traumatic if not a path that some choose to walk. Its a tightrope to walk.
I'd also be wary about moving them around to different schools and different parts of the country. Its a legal form of isolation when considering how the new kid is bullied at school often overseen by teachers and can be used to isolate people later on in life.
Its probably why the Police and Military move people around, breaking down friends networks, forcing new friends networks on people. Its that divide and conqueror mentality which has existed since before Roman times.
I think a good approach is to not be dictatorial, which can be simple instructions of dont do this, dont do that, be quiet without the explainantions in a concept understandable format. Thats hard when kids are young, but explain why something can or cant be done. That was harder in the past because there was no internet, but with the internet today, its easier to find out things. Example, putting things in mouths, explaining the concept of germs and how some of them like bacteria can go dormant in the body (biofilms) desite antibiotics and some viruses never leave the body (herpes), and some viruses get into parts of the body where the adaptive immune system cant go and importantly, clinicians cant test for their existence except at the time of autopsy.
I know the medical profession like to portray themselves as experts, but if you look at how medical theories are being rewritten all they time especially now when new tech becomes available or cheaper to use to allow more testing and data acquisition occurs, that's when you realise even dominant personalities can skew the interpretation of data.
[1] 1975 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1150935/
[2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Learned+helplessness
[3] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11522522/
> Things might be better in the US by virtue of having private healthcare,
Are you serious?
> but state healthcare like the UK's NHS enables the state to carry out more experimentation in secret.
Ah. Well, I'm not going to try to reason with you, then.
Are you serious?
> but state healthcare like the UK's NHS enables the state to carry out more experimentation in secret.
Ah. Well, I'm not going to try to reason with you, then.
> Ah. Well, I'm not going to try to reason with you, then.
Why are you in denial? Is it because you haven't experienced or witnessed it?
I can tell you that the so called National Curriculum was only national in name, this is something I experienced and witnessed by being moved around the country.
Stuff I was taught in primary school, I was then retaught it in secondary school in a different part of the country.
I dont think you realise just how criminal the so called pillars of society really are. Look at religion, there is still no scientific evidence for the existence of god. Is that not legal delusions?
Examples of the NHS covering up conditions, in A&E before you can be checked out they have to check you over, things like oxygen blood saturation, if you read in the 80's that should be investigated, the nurses will tell you to take a few deep breaths then do the check again. Its covering up conditions which need investigation. Nurses that come out to you in the home, will do things like engage you on conversations before doing a oxygen blood saturation level check in order to get you breathing more in order to get your levels up. However if your day is typically on your own no one to talk to, your levels will still read in the 80's. That situation will apply to alot of OAP's living in their home's "home blocking" in the same context as "bed blocking" in the hospitals, which the Govt and Banks allow as this pushes up house prices. Shelter being one of the lower tier's in Maslow's Hierarchy of needs.
Perhaps you cant tell or spot how you are being led?
Why are you in denial? Is it because you haven't experienced or witnessed it?
I can tell you that the so called National Curriculum was only national in name, this is something I experienced and witnessed by being moved around the country.
Stuff I was taught in primary school, I was then retaught it in secondary school in a different part of the country.
I dont think you realise just how criminal the so called pillars of society really are. Look at religion, there is still no scientific evidence for the existence of god. Is that not legal delusions?
Examples of the NHS covering up conditions, in A&E before you can be checked out they have to check you over, things like oxygen blood saturation, if you read in the 80's that should be investigated, the nurses will tell you to take a few deep breaths then do the check again. Its covering up conditions which need investigation. Nurses that come out to you in the home, will do things like engage you on conversations before doing a oxygen blood saturation level check in order to get you breathing more in order to get your levels up. However if your day is typically on your own no one to talk to, your levels will still read in the 80's. That situation will apply to alot of OAP's living in their home's "home blocking" in the same context as "bed blocking" in the hospitals, which the Govt and Banks allow as this pushes up house prices. Shelter being one of the lower tier's in Maslow's Hierarchy of needs.
Perhaps you cant tell or spot how you are being led?
Not sure about this elephant story but this is precisely how people have been training dogs and even bears for a long time.
Imagine a 500kg bear dancing for someone's amusement when the music starts. I haven't seen this in 30 years but even as a kid it seemed really wrong in many ways
Imagine a 500kg bear dancing for someone's amusement when the music starts. I haven't seen this in 30 years but even as a kid it seemed really wrong in many ways
In God of war Ragnarok there is a similiar story with a whale. It is chained to a lake so long that after its bonds are removed, it will not leave.
See Dr Gabor Mate about this.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/2XCJAb43d6b4cNLdKS9jSw?si=v...
+ his recent books, can be bought from Amazon
https://open.spotify.com/episode/2XCJAb43d6b4cNLdKS9jSw?si=v...
+ his recent books, can be bought from Amazon
Stumbling upon Gabor Mate and his book 'Scattered Minds' by literal chance made me realize not only that I had (severe) ADHD, but it that it could be traced back to interactions and stresses from my early childhood that mirrors information I had about my parents' emotional situation during that period. Since then, it has been a long journey until finding the right therapist and meds.
If there is a book that has radically changed my life for the better, it is this one. I wish I knew about my condition and family history 20 or 30 years ago.
If there is a book that has radically changed my life for the better, it is this one. I wish I knew about my condition and family history 20 or 30 years ago.
I highly recommend Hungry Ghosts for anyone that wants to understand addiction (it’s an escape from pain that probably started in childhood ). You could also go straight to The Myth of Normal which has some of this information from his other works. The Joe Rogan interview was one of Rogans worst jobs interviewing- there’s a lot more depth that Mate has to give and some of it comes out in other interviews he has given. There’s a few on YouTube https://youtu.be/H9B5mYfBPlY
I didnt find it worst at all. It was able to convey his ideas and as a result of liking the ideas so much; I bought and read all of Mate's books.
The worst ones are the ones where he onlyntalks about himself. I would nominate the interview with Louis Theroux, number 835 [0]. This was an extremely wasted opportunity to talk with the best and one of our most prolific documentaries of our time.
For what it's worth, these are the best ever:
* 908 Leah Remini
* 1609 Elon Musk
* 1518 David Choe
[0], https://open.spotify.com/episode/0IGHoKiXvNiWJU9S9xPpei?si=S...
The worst ones are the ones where he onlyntalks about himself. I would nominate the interview with Louis Theroux, number 835 [0]. This was an extremely wasted opportunity to talk with the best and one of our most prolific documentaries of our time.
For what it's worth, these are the best ever:
* 908 Leah Remini
* 1609 Elon Musk
* 1518 David Choe
[0], https://open.spotify.com/episode/0IGHoKiXvNiWJU9S9xPpei?si=S...
The East Germans did some very interesting research into the impact of stress and trauma (the sort of stress you expense while being area-bombed during the latter stages of WW2) on expectant mothers and their unborn children. Unfortunately this doesn’t seem to have made its way online (I suspect a lot of it was unethical, so people are unwilling to cite it).
Edited for typo.
Edited for typo.
There are other studies done on people who gestated and were born through the lean years of WW2 in Europe. They still have trouble with weight 50 years later, statistically. It seems like that prenatal and early starvation permanently changed how their bodies interact with food.
I think there may have been a stress response difference too but can't remember exactly.
Source: Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers by Sapolsky. This whole book is about stress.
I think there may have been a stress response difference too but can't remember exactly.
Source: Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers by Sapolsky. This whole book is about stress.
There was a study a few years back that looked at epigenetic shifts that persist for several generations in the instance of malnourishment of a pregnant mother - I think they were looking at Indian populations from around partition - the upshot was that the offspring was much more likely to be type 2 diabetic, which makes sense from an evolutionary perspective, as if you’re going to be born into a low calorie/famine environment, having elevated blood sugar is eugenic.
I do find more amusement over the false understanding of ulcers from the title than I should. Some examples, it turns out, just don't age well. :D
Yeah, it did make me think "are ulcers entirely caused by ulcers?"
what's the answer here?
what's the answer here?
Ulcers are known to be viral today. People literally got a Nobel for it. Used to, they were thought to be caused by stress.
This has been known for a long time. It's why poverty becomes generational and poor people tend to be unable to save money, even a little bit. They cannot comprehend a future in which they have money, so they spend what they get as soon as they get it.
I dunno, in my family it's been the opposite. We grew up poor (single mom with 3 kids) and have been raised to be frugal. So now even where all 3 of us have jobs with a decent salary we tend to spend very little. I've kind of learned to not worry about it and spend more nowadays, but for example when we go out to eat my younger brother still just orders water usually (alongside the most optimal quantity+taste/price food).
No regrets tho, I feel like as a society as a whole we need to learn to live more frugally since the environment can't support all this unnecessary waste.
This reeks of bias.
I’m always leery of “the poors are dumb!” as if that’s self-evident, rather than in poverty the risk-reward trade off is different and they accordingly adapt to that — as a rational choice.
Do you think escaping poverty is as simple as “just save money, dummy!”
I’m always leery of “the poors are dumb!” as if that’s self-evident, rather than in poverty the risk-reward trade off is different and they accordingly adapt to that — as a rational choice.
Do you think escaping poverty is as simple as “just save money, dummy!”
Yep, if you're earning something approaching fuckall no amount of saving is ever going to bring you out of poverty, so why would you not just spend spare income on stuff that's enjoyable now instead. The only way a lot of people can break the cycle is to earn more, not spend less - because spending less of fuckall still leaves you with fuckall.
>> why would you not just spend spare income on stuff that’s enjoyable now
This is exactly not what you want to do. It’s an attitude of entitlement without a sense of delayed gratification.
>> The only way a lot of people can break the cycle is to earn more, not spend less
Earning more is a result, not a means to an end. You break the cycle by improving your means. How you improve your means is entirely up to you and knowing how to balance delayed gratification has a big part to play in it.
This is exactly not what you want to do. It’s an attitude of entitlement without a sense of delayed gratification.
>> The only way a lot of people can break the cycle is to earn more, not spend less
Earning more is a result, not a means to an end. You break the cycle by improving your means. How you improve your means is entirely up to you and knowing how to balance delayed gratification has a big part to play in it.
[deleted]
[deleted]
It hasn't been known for a long time. Did you read the article?
> “We know that early-life stress impacts the brain, but until now, we didn’t know how,” Baram said. “Our team focused on identifying potentially stress-sensitive brain pathways. We discovered a new pathway within the reward circuit that expresses a molecule called corticotropin-releasing hormone that controls our responses to stress. We found that adverse experiences cause this brain pathway to be overactive.”
> “We know that early-life stress impacts the brain, but until now, we didn’t know how,” Baram said. “Our team focused on identifying potentially stress-sensitive brain pathways. We discovered a new pathway within the reward circuit that expresses a molecule called corticotropin-releasing hormone that controls our responses to stress. We found that adverse experiences cause this brain pathway to be overactive.”
Yes, I meant the behavior pattern has been known, not the bio-chemical cause.
Read A Framework For Understanding Poverty by Ruby Payne. It explains this phenomenon and the book dates to the 1990s. Basically that the stress of growing up in poverty stunts your ability to plan for the future and you choose immediate gratification over longer-term strategic saving.
Read A Framework For Understanding Poverty by Ruby Payne. It explains this phenomenon and the book dates to the 1990s. Basically that the stress of growing up in poverty stunts your ability to plan for the future and you choose immediate gratification over longer-term strategic saving.
Seems more and more that a parent's sole role is to protect their child from any sexual/physical/mental abuse or trauma. Speaking from experience one spends the rest of their life in therapy or otherwise dealing with it.
Yeah this can't be a hard rule on how brains develop.
All I have is my own experience, but there are loads of happy and successful people that came from a rough start.
From that very same experience I can also say that the trend for people to leave this world the way they came in seems stronger. I think personal values and culture play the strongest role.
All I have is my own experience, but there are loads of happy and successful people that came from a rough start.
From that very same experience I can also say that the trend for people to leave this world the way they came in seems stronger. I think personal values and culture play the strongest role.
One can be successful and happy, as far as others are concerned, and still have a screwed up reward system.
Actually, having a screwed up reward system can promote success, as one often goes to enormous lengths to prove to oneself that one isn’t a worthless piece of shit, which is often the upshot of anhedonia.
Actually, having a screwed up reward system can promote success, as one often goes to enormous lengths to prove to oneself that one isn’t a worthless piece of shit, which is often the upshot of anhedonia.
> one often goes to enormous lengths to prove to oneself that one isn’t a worthless piece of shit, which is often the upshot of anhedonia.
Alas, it is an endless run. In the end, I'll always think that I am a worthless piece of shit.
Alas, it is an endless run. In the end, I'll always think that I am a worthless piece of shit.
The fate of every human being is the same, not to live any longer when the final comes through. But until that magical moment, we can see our lives through a more poetical and beautiful light.I feel there is greatness in the freedom of choosing to be just happy or to suffer a tragic life.
I am generally happy and successful. However, my childhood was filled to the gills with trauma. So much so I visited a therapist and they immediately identified it.
It emerges as rampant pessimism and distrust of anyone and everyone. It's highly beneficial in the corporate world but has irreparably damaged my ability to bond with people. Which leaves me at a impasse as to whether to solve it. Given my age it's not worth it as I am well beyond my years of socializing freely.
It emerges as rampant pessimism and distrust of anyone and everyone. It's highly beneficial in the corporate world but has irreparably damaged my ability to bond with people. Which leaves me at a impasse as to whether to solve it. Given my age it's not worth it as I am well beyond my years of socializing freely.
You are worth it. Your inner child is worth it as well. If you don't do it for yourself do it for them.
Humans have no reward circuits.
interesting but also in mice
swayvil(2)
Depends on what particular "stress and adversity" from early life/ ELA from article. From what we have learnt from Spirituality and all of the wise philosophers, that sounds contradictory. Most of the teachings of philosophy point to adversity and stress as events from which we can learn from and become more stronger mentally. It's possible that always being in this state of stress can morph your worldview to always be broken, and perhaps that is what's being referenced and reflected here.
Please Google "Adverse Childhood Experiences" or just read this overview: https://www.joiningforcesforchildren.org/what-are-aces/
Childhood trauma like physical neglect, sexual abuse or living with a parent who suffered from mental illness does not "make us mentally stronger."
It's not about "worldview". As the parent article shows, the types of experiences create physiological changes in the brain. The changes are correlated later in life with everything from drug abuse to depression suicide attempts and cancer. A lot of this is driven by unhealthy behavior driven by the physiological changes, but some of it is directly linked in a physical sense.
I'm all for inspiring adults to learn from their hardships, but it's cruel to ever cast childhood trauma as a good thing.
Childhood trauma like physical neglect, sexual abuse or living with a parent who suffered from mental illness does not "make us mentally stronger."
It's not about "worldview". As the parent article shows, the types of experiences create physiological changes in the brain. The changes are correlated later in life with everything from drug abuse to depression suicide attempts and cancer. A lot of this is driven by unhealthy behavior driven by the physiological changes, but some of it is directly linked in a physical sense.
I'm all for inspiring adults to learn from their hardships, but it's cruel to ever cast childhood trauma as a good thing.
[deleted]
Yup - trauma truly is just purely negative; even if you escape with the “I’m an adaptive survivor” mentality.
A better life for kids is zero-trauma, especially from the parents issues.
A better life for kids is zero-trauma, especially from the parents issues.
I am grateful for the great thinkers of the past, and for the wisdom that can often be found there. Buddhism and Stoicism have helped folks endure horrific conditions.
But there is no virtue in experiencing pain. It is not better to reach some form of personal enlightenment by being forced to do so through adversity.
And I think this is also a different category because we're talking about childhood here. This is a period of time when a human is most vulnerable, fully dependent on those around them, and unable to even understand that the world could be different than it is. The impact into adulthood can be catastrophic, and the fact that some folks navigate this successfully via contemplative practice should be something we marvel over, not an ideal we should strive for.
But there is no virtue in experiencing pain. It is not better to reach some form of personal enlightenment by being forced to do so through adversity.
And I think this is also a different category because we're talking about childhood here. This is a period of time when a human is most vulnerable, fully dependent on those around them, and unable to even understand that the world could be different than it is. The impact into adulthood can be catastrophic, and the fact that some folks navigate this successfully via contemplative practice should be something we marvel over, not an ideal we should strive for.
I agree about there being no virtue in experiencing pain, but I think there's value in it. Neither form of personal enlightenment is inherently better, they are different experiences that lead different yet similar paths, though both provide an understanding the other cannot
I agree that there's value that can be found, but it's not the kind of value that I think most would choose to acquire if they were given a choice and understood what the experience would entail. It's a silver lining. It's like throwing a faster pitch after Tommy John surgery.
But when we're talking about childhood trauma/stress, I'd be more cautious about associating value. While value may certainly be derived by folks fortunate enough to find a path out, many don't find that path. And that path out can also leave quite a bit of damage in its wake.
But when we're talking about childhood trauma/stress, I'd be more cautious about associating value. While value may certainly be derived by folks fortunate enough to find a path out, many don't find that path. And that path out can also leave quite a bit of damage in its wake.
I think the most important part is how developed we are when we experience the trauma.
What you and the article are talking about are apples and oranges.
Yet your attitude is entirely typical of most people: you seem to assume that children one year of age who are screamed at by a psychotic mother have the capacity to think about all the wise things the Buddha and Marcus Aurelius said and how best to respond to the situation, so that they can learn from it and become as sage and wise as someone like yourself.
This is simply not the case. Very young humans are literally dependent on the people around them for their survival. They are not capable of complex, abstract reasoning. When Mom screams her head off at a one-year-old baby, that baby is not able to think that maybe Mom is screaming because she has borderline personality disorder, a terrible marriage and a very demanding boss; the baby assumes he's being screamed at because he is at fault. The bodies and nervous systems of young humans assume that early life experiences are a good representation of how the world really is, that the people around us in those very formative years are good representations of how people are.
Significant early-life adversity causes lasting physical changes to the brain, as well as lasting epigenetic changes (changes in the expression of the genes) which affect many (all?) parts of the organism. If you care to learn about this, look into books by Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, Dr. Gabor Mate, the "ACE" study which I believe another commenter mentioned, as well as "Born Anxious" by Daniel P. Keating. Or, feel free to continue trotting around on your high horse, assuming the addicts and mentally ill of the world are just people with a lack of willpower and initiative. Not everyone is as blessed as you are, please remember that.
Yet your attitude is entirely typical of most people: you seem to assume that children one year of age who are screamed at by a psychotic mother have the capacity to think about all the wise things the Buddha and Marcus Aurelius said and how best to respond to the situation, so that they can learn from it and become as sage and wise as someone like yourself.
This is simply not the case. Very young humans are literally dependent on the people around them for their survival. They are not capable of complex, abstract reasoning. When Mom screams her head off at a one-year-old baby, that baby is not able to think that maybe Mom is screaming because she has borderline personality disorder, a terrible marriage and a very demanding boss; the baby assumes he's being screamed at because he is at fault. The bodies and nervous systems of young humans assume that early life experiences are a good representation of how the world really is, that the people around us in those very formative years are good representations of how people are.
Significant early-life adversity causes lasting physical changes to the brain, as well as lasting epigenetic changes (changes in the expression of the genes) which affect many (all?) parts of the organism. If you care to learn about this, look into books by Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, Dr. Gabor Mate, the "ACE" study which I believe another commenter mentioned, as well as "Born Anxious" by Daniel P. Keating. Or, feel free to continue trotting around on your high horse, assuming the addicts and mentally ill of the world are just people with a lack of willpower and initiative. Not everyone is as blessed as you are, please remember that.
Look at adversity in real life and tell me it makes mentally stronger people.
Some people become very mentally tough, but this is a projection of physical resistance training onto your brain.
Note that basically nobody does this. Very few people decide to put themselves into adverse circumstances and fewer still do it to benefit their brain.
Some people become very mentally tough, but this is a projection of physical resistance training onto your brain.
Note that basically nobody does this. Very few people decide to put themselves into adverse circumstances and fewer still do it to benefit their brain.
Anecdotal, also I admit I don't know what the exact range of adversity here is. But from all the immigrant friends I have living in the US and the ones who aren't here, a lot of them come from 'living on the street' environments from South Asia. Their attitude to life is to make it work no matter what and they are stoic. Their drive is something one would aspire to. Inability to take an action isn't an option or a natural state they can be at. I cannot help but compare them to Western born folks and see the stark difference in approaching everything to life.
> decide to put themselves into adverse circumstances
If you've knowingly put yourself there, it's much less likely to be genuinely traumatic. It's only when someone finds themselves trapped in an unexpected and undesired negative situation that real trauma manifests.
A roller-coaster ride and an auto wreck might have the same physical effect but very different psychological effects.
If you've knowingly put yourself there, it's much less likely to be genuinely traumatic. It's only when someone finds themselves trapped in an unexpected and undesired negative situation that real trauma manifests.
A roller-coaster ride and an auto wreck might have the same physical effect but very different psychological effects.
The US Marines literally sell themselves on “develop a fighting spirit”, overcoming obstacles, etc.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x29Y38mfsxw
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O9gTAjbiQEM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yotXRoLxFdY
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x29Y38mfsxw
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O9gTAjbiQEM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yotXRoLxFdY
Most come from well to do circumstances, anywhere from Aurelius to Weil, they were birthed into apposite economic strata, with enough 'wisdom' to ameliorate themselves in childhood from extreme rending poverty, and later on with that basis formulated such austere philosophies. Name me one truly unfathomable poverty stricken philosopher, think subsaharan famine levels, especially in their formative years, and I'll list you thousands of counter examples.
Experiencing adverse childhood experiences is correlated with increased risk of diabetes, heart attack, and lower perception of overall health. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4617302/
Speaking personally I don't think ACEs made me any stronger and I think I am where I am now in spite of them.
Speaking personally I don't think ACEs made me any stronger and I think I am where I am now in spite of them.
I mean of course. If you have adverse childhood experiences you probably are more likely to come from a dysfunctional and poor place. You eat bad foods frequently and are around alcohol, tobacco, and drug use and more likely to become a problem user of them.
It’s also likely the genetic material being passed on to you isn’t helpful in overcoming these things when you have control of them.
It’s also likely the genetic material being passed on to you isn’t helpful in overcoming these things when you have control of them.
Why are you deriving general statements from an article that are making specific claims about specific matters. ELA[1] as the CDC defines it, and as the article referenses back to, is "A (witnessed) traumatic event is a frightening, dangerous, or violent event that poses a threat to a (loved one)/child’s life or bodily integrity." There is no 'Depends on what particular "stress and adversity" from early life/ ELA.'
> From what we have learnt from Spirituality and all of the wise philosophers, that sounds contradictory.
Such a loaded statement. Coming from the assumption that there is anything reliable from spirituality or wise or unwise philosphers, doesn't mean that there reasons are justified truth belief, just anecdotal observations.
> Most of the teachings of philosophy point to adversity and stress as events from which we can learn from and become more stronger mentally
Can you please provide sources and not assume its common knowledge.
> It's possible that always being in this state of stress can morph your worldview to always be broken, and perhaps that is what's being referenced and reflected here.
"Possible," do you have any reasons to back up your claim?
[1] https://www.nctsn.org/what-is-child-trauma/about-child-traum...
> From what we have learnt from Spirituality and all of the wise philosophers, that sounds contradictory.
Such a loaded statement. Coming from the assumption that there is anything reliable from spirituality or wise or unwise philosphers, doesn't mean that there reasons are justified truth belief, just anecdotal observations.
> Most of the teachings of philosophy point to adversity and stress as events from which we can learn from and become more stronger mentally
Can you please provide sources and not assume its common knowledge.
> It's possible that always being in this state of stress can morph your worldview to always be broken, and perhaps that is what's being referenced and reflected here.
"Possible," do you have any reasons to back up your claim?
[1] https://www.nctsn.org/what-is-child-trauma/about-child-traum...
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> The study involved two groups of male and female mice. One was exposed to adversity early in life by living for a week in cages with limited bedding and nesting material, and the other was reared in typical cages. As adults, the early adversity-experiencing male mice had little interest in sweet foods or sex cues compared to typically reared mice. In contrast, adversity-experiencing females craved rich, sweet food.
It seems like mice evolved so that males who were deprived or damaged took themselves out of competition with other males by not having interest in sex and sweet foods. I suppose as a species that might make sense by cutting the losses on a damaged individual, but it is a cold logic.
It is uncanny that it maps to our religious practices, where "damaged" males drop out of sexual competition and became monks (but I suppose nowadays become "incels" instead).
It seems like mice evolved so that males who were deprived or damaged took themselves out of competition with other males by not having interest in sex and sweet foods. I suppose as a species that might make sense by cutting the losses on a damaged individual, but it is a cold logic.
It is uncanny that it maps to our religious practices, where "damaged" males drop out of sexual competition and became monks (but I suppose nowadays become "incels" instead).
This is a shocking and ahistorical take on the reasons a person might choose to become a monk both past and present.
Do you have more evidence for your assertion? Otherwise it seems like it’s based solely on a shallow contempt for religiosity - putting it as nicely as possible.
Do you have more evidence for your assertion? Otherwise it seems like it’s based solely on a shallow contempt for religiosity - putting it as nicely as possible.
I do not have contempt for religiosity.
Here is some evidence for my assertion from "Tibetan Buddhism and Mass Monasticism" by Melvyn C. Goldstein:
> A fourth, and extremely common, type of situation occurred when parents made a son a monk as part of a strategy for organizing their family’s human resources so as to minimize the likelihood of family fragmentation and land division in the next generation.
> Poverty also was very important in motivating parents to make sons monks. Very poor Tibetans with many children had two main mechanisms for balancing their income with subsistence needs. One was making one or more sons a monk as the above mentioned case of the nomad illustrated.
I have only done a quick search to find references to respond to you, but I have taken it for granted people knew that monasteries in medieval Europe as well as all around the world were places where younger sons and the children of impoverished people were sent. Primogeniture was a common practice, and it not only entailed oldest sons inheriting everything, but also younger sons frequently being abused. I can search for more references and examples if you like.
Once again, I would reaffirm that just because there seems to be a biological basis for this behavior, it in no way means that there is something wrong with these people- in fact, to the contrary. The development of the mind by monks across religions is a remarkable feat and the jewel of humanity- even if it is born from struggle.
Here is some evidence for my assertion from "Tibetan Buddhism and Mass Monasticism" by Melvyn C. Goldstein:
> A fourth, and extremely common, type of situation occurred when parents made a son a monk as part of a strategy for organizing their family’s human resources so as to minimize the likelihood of family fragmentation and land division in the next generation.
> Poverty also was very important in motivating parents to make sons monks. Very poor Tibetans with many children had two main mechanisms for balancing their income with subsistence needs. One was making one or more sons a monk as the above mentioned case of the nomad illustrated.
I have only done a quick search to find references to respond to you, but I have taken it for granted people knew that monasteries in medieval Europe as well as all around the world were places where younger sons and the children of impoverished people were sent. Primogeniture was a common practice, and it not only entailed oldest sons inheriting everything, but also younger sons frequently being abused. I can search for more references and examples if you like.
Once again, I would reaffirm that just because there seems to be a biological basis for this behavior, it in no way means that there is something wrong with these people- in fact, to the contrary. The development of the mind by monks across religions is a remarkable feat and the jewel of humanity- even if it is born from struggle.
When you, as head of your family, end up with multiple inheritors (read: more than one child), there is a very high chance your inheritors will fight each other, sometimes violently, for the inheritance. This is still a problem today, too.
Sending the younger inheritors away to the clergy is a way of nipping such nasty family problems in the bud before they become problems. A man of the church can't inherit unless they are called back by their family.
TL;DR: None of this has to do with someone's sexual fitness, and everything to do with straightening out potentially complicated family inheritances.
Sending the younger inheritors away to the clergy is a way of nipping such nasty family problems in the bud before they become problems. A man of the church can't inherit unless they are called back by their family.
TL;DR: None of this has to do with someone's sexual fitness, and everything to do with straightening out potentially complicated family inheritances.
> None of this has to do with someone's sexual fitness, and everything to do with straightening out potentially complicated family inheritances.
I think the research in this article points to a biological adaptation for handling this issue before the development of monasteries as a human institution. I.e., mice don't have monasteries
I think the research in this article points to a biological adaptation for handling this issue before the development of monasteries as a human institution. I.e., mice don't have monasteries
I am speaking strictly in regards to the human system of sending away children to become clergyman, which is a way of dealing with future inheritance problems regardless the sexual fitness of a given child.
That is to say, the family picks a would-be inheritor and sends away all the others to hopefully prevent family feuds.
I do not speak for mice and their culture, whatever it may be.
That is to say, the family picks a would-be inheritor and sends away all the others to hopefully prevent family feuds.
I do not speak for mice and their culture, whatever it may be.
I’ve actually known some monks, and I’m pretty sure they would look askance at your suggestion that they became monks because they are “damaged males”.
I agree, and in fact, I think early struggle can be a gift if it can be worked through. It can open up a whole new world of the mind that monks are able to cultivate that you cannot approach if you are preoccupied with interests in sex and food (and other hedonistic things).
> I think early struggle can be a gift if it can be worked through
That is a gigantic "if."
I think not having to repair one's self and, instead, using said time and resources to better one's self or to work towards one's goals would be a better gift.
That is a gigantic "if."
I think not having to repair one's self and, instead, using said time and resources to better one's self or to work towards one's goals would be a better gift.
As someone who's often contemplated whether I've made it where I am in life despite or thanks to my fucked up childhood, this really hits home.
It's really difficult to look at it as a gift. It feels more like a curse that has a bunch workaround protocols in place.
It's really difficult to look at it as a gift. It feels more like a curse that has a bunch workaround protocols in place.
You and the previous commenter are right. It is inappropriate for me to call it a gift. I called it a gift because I have tried to view it as such (I also had a traumatic childhood), and because the kindest and wisest people I have known went through a tremendous amount of suffering. I have viewed trauma as a prerequisite for wisdom (and I think it is necessary), but there is obviously a lot of selection bias in my thinking. Most of the people who have been traumatized in childhood have been chewed up by the process.
I did not mean to offend anyone by calling trauma a gift. In retrospect, it seems absurd of me to call something a gift that one has to work so hard to overcome to receive its benefits- and that even with hard work, there is still such a low chance of receiving them.
Although this is unrelated to your comment, thinking about your comment has caused me to reevaluate my original comment. It was downvoted and I think I offended people by comparing monks to incels. I actually think it is liberating to not only understand the research in this article as relating to the drive that some people have to become monks, but also liberating to understand the drive to be a monk as relating to the feeling of being an incel.
I have been lucky in that I had wise people to guide me beyond the trauma. I believe that monasteries, religion and philosophy have done that for many people too. It is my belief that the deep ambivalence and frustration that incels feel is related to the same things, but they are without the guidance that I and others have received to figure out how to process and understand their suffering. Although there is much wisdom in psychology, most therapy still seems shallow and unable to give the guidance that is needed. Our pop culture seems even worse.
The solution is probably not to revive monastic culture, but I don't think our pop culture should revile incels as much as it does. They may say and do hateful things, but they are just humans suffering. I think incels need guidance as much as our pop culture does.
I did not mean to offend anyone by calling trauma a gift. In retrospect, it seems absurd of me to call something a gift that one has to work so hard to overcome to receive its benefits- and that even with hard work, there is still such a low chance of receiving them.
Although this is unrelated to your comment, thinking about your comment has caused me to reevaluate my original comment. It was downvoted and I think I offended people by comparing monks to incels. I actually think it is liberating to not only understand the research in this article as relating to the drive that some people have to become monks, but also liberating to understand the drive to be a monk as relating to the feeling of being an incel.
I have been lucky in that I had wise people to guide me beyond the trauma. I believe that monasteries, religion and philosophy have done that for many people too. It is my belief that the deep ambivalence and frustration that incels feel is related to the same things, but they are without the guidance that I and others have received to figure out how to process and understand their suffering. Although there is much wisdom in psychology, most therapy still seems shallow and unable to give the guidance that is needed. Our pop culture seems even worse.
The solution is probably not to revive monastic culture, but I don't think our pop culture should revile incels as much as it does. They may say and do hateful things, but they are just humans suffering. I think incels need guidance as much as our pop culture does.
It is reminiscent of the male behaviour in Universe 25 - this description reminded me of "the beautiful ones": https://www.the-scientist.com/foundations/universe-25-1968-1...
"The selfish gene" (Dawkins, 1976) states that there is no evolution in species, only in individuals.
Most of evolutionary pressure comes from members of the same species, so dropping out of that competition (genetic suicide) doesn't make sense, evolutionarily seen
Most of evolutionary pressure comes from members of the same species, so dropping out of that competition (genetic suicide) doesn't make sense, evolutionarily seen
The selfish gene, as the title suggests, makes the case that there is no evolution in individuals, only genes.
That is also true - for a different meaning of "evolution in" which I didn't consider relevant for OP.
I've been on a long term therapy journey for C-PTSD stemming from childhood trauma, and there's a part me that has always felt like I should be past all of that now that I'm some decades beyond that environment. There's part of your brain that tells you it's your problem, and won't accept that the mindset was deeply embedded before you even understood what was going on, or that other modes of existence are possible.
The built-in pessimism has served me well in some professional capacities, but when this permeates all aspects of thinking, things do not go well in the long run.
I'm on a much better path now, and meditation/yoga/some useful parts of Buddhist philosophy (and a really good therapist) are opening my eyes to new ways of thinking.
But it has been a long and often painful journey.