Signal is for everyone, and everyone is different(signal.org)
signal.org
Signal is for everyone, and everyone is different
https://signal.org/blog/signal-is-for-everyone/
124 comments
Ironically, they're killing the killer feature.
Security when possible, but with a trivially easy-to-use fallback was what let me get others on the platform.
Security when possible, but with a trivially easy-to-use fallback was what let me get others on the platform.
Same, and I can no longer recommend Signal to all my friends and family because SMS was the only feature that would make them consider it. Otherwise every one just uses WhatsApp.
I uninstalled just because of that, I'm not futzing around with a separate messaging app. I really don't understand why they chose to drop sms support, their stated reason makes no sense. If they are concerned about ambiguity of messages being private or not, they could just change the UI. Plus, I already thought it was very clear what messages weren't encrypted already.
Same. Did it as soon as they announced it.
Sms support was probably single-handedly the reason they were able to onboard as many users as they did. Removing it is an epic fuck up.
And their public "we're protecting you from yourselves" rationale is patronizing as hell.
And still there are lots of Signal users on iOS, who never had this possibility ever.
Sadly, because it makes a ton of sense. It's the same way Apple got so many to use iMessage. People on iOS generally doesn't realize that iMessage isn't SMS.
I really like Signal, but it's a niche thing for me. I have two friends who use it, familie is all on iMessage or SMS and SnapChat, that's it. Signal would make sense for those on SMS still, but convincing them to switch is going to be an uphill battle. Those on iMessage, why would they consider using Signal, when everything just works.
I really like Signal, but it's a niche thing for me. I have two friends who use it, familie is all on iMessage or SMS and SnapChat, that's it. Signal would make sense for those on SMS still, but convincing them to switch is going to be an uphill battle. Those on iMessage, why would they consider using Signal, when everything just works.
In my family circle at least, WhatsApp outweighs SMS and iMessage by at least 2 orders of magnitude. In the Chinese-speaking world, Tencent/QQ is the messaging/payment/commerce app that subsumes everything else, with iOS and Android being like the invisible and mostly irrelevant BIOS layer underneath.
I very much notice green bubbles.
I think when parent wrote "People on iOS generally doesn't realize that iMessage isn't SMS" they are not talking about so-called technically-literate people.
The very fact that you're commenting on HN probably means you're technically-literate so probably it does not apply to you.
But I am also curious about that sentiment about not realizing iMessage isn't SMS that. I heard it repeated a lot. I have not met a lot of people that share this sentiment and have not heard of research around this specific topic. So I'd love to put some data behind it.
The very fact that you're commenting on HN probably means you're technically-literate so probably it does not apply to you.
But I am also curious about that sentiment about not realizing iMessage isn't SMS that. I heard it repeated a lot. I have not met a lot of people that share this sentiment and have not heard of research around this specific topic. So I'd love to put some data behind it.
One does not have to be tech-literate to notice the limitations of green bubble SMS/MMS versus iMessage, particularly in group chats or when you want to send or receive photos (often recompressed and received in a lower resolution on MMS), videos (very low file size limits on MMS), or any arbitrary file type (often not possible on SMS).
Data would be interesting, but we'd also need to know what people think SMS is. For my mom, SMS is the text messaging app on her iPhone. My sister knows that it's iMessage, but she doesn't care, it's still the app that allows her to send a text message, it might be iMessage, it might be SMS, but practically speaking, it's a text message. My guess is that it could be IRC or ICQ for all she cares, it move a message from her to a friend or family member. The important part is that it's able to reach anyone with a phone.
Same. Many others have said the same thing, nobody I know has trouble distinguishing between secure and non-secure and nobody is enthused about having to run 2 apps to do the same job. Signal foundation doesn't seem to care.
Only two? Between regular texting (sms), WhatsApp, Facebook and Facebook messenger, Signal, Instagram, Twitter, Slack, Discord, Snapchat, Tinder, and finally WeChat, which are currently installed on my phone (space is cheap these days) I'm jealous. I probably make regular use of like seven of those. They mostly have different groups of people on them, though there's a lot of overlap when sharing content within an app (eg Instagram content is shared via Instagram, Twitter content via Twitter, even when that person has other ways of contacting me). I wonder why our use cases are so different! Is it down to the fact that the people I talk to are terminally online?
Mostly the same and I agree. So many messaging apps sometimes. Though it's not quite so bad. IIRC all the Meta apps (Instagram and Facebook, I don't think Whatsapp though) can communicate with each other's DMs on any of the apps. And I don't use Slack for anything but work. I've refused to put Discord on my phone as well. Tinder seems like an odd one though - you can't get in touch with a random person you met otherwise on there, and if you have met them and want to keep seeing them it seems better to move to some other form of communication.
Oh yeah totally, after forming an in-person connection with someone from Tinder, I'll move off platform, but rushing that is (at least where I am) bot behavior and hasn't lead me to success. Nor do I really trust someone pushing me off platform. It's just that there's so much texting that happens on-platform given even a low steam of matches that I chose to include it. I didn't include Hinge or Bumble in that list though, didn't want to inflate the app count.
I have none of those, my father has none of those, all we had was Whatsapp and Signal, after the SMS drop it is back to Whatsapp and built in SMS app, my mother and wife have some other apps but not that many, wife has only wechat, mother I think only facebook messenger, so one extra app makes a lot difference especially if none of the contacts outside family use it.
I use other messaging platforms, but when I'm sitting at my desk. If I'm relying on my phone then most of those communications are less important and I don't need to be fully connected/notified/tracked.
Same. I only have a small handful of contacts that use Signal and I'll probably just switch back to using Messages. Secure when possible was a killer feature.
Signal won't stop spamming me for donations nor does the IOS version give me the ability to turn off notifications without displaying "Do you wish to turn on notifications" after x times of opening the app.
Same here. I like Signal but this begging really needs to stop.
I'm wondering what do you think can Signal do to stay afloat being a non-profit that AFAIK relies solely on donations?
Disclaimer: I pay Signal monthly (happy to do it in exhcange for no-bullshit app)
Disclaimer: I pay Signal monthly (happy to do it in exhcange for no-bullshit app)
Use the $100M loan they have?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_Foundation#History
EDIT: Hopefully they made money on that scammy alt-coin too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_Foundation#History
EDIT: Hopefully they made money on that scammy alt-coin too.
Unfortunately they were pretty much caught between a rock and a hard place there, rather than not listening to their users: https://community.signalusers.org/t/signal-blog-removing-sms...
Same here, I've been happily using signal for years and will probably have to drop it since I won't be able to communicate with a majority of my contacts :(
They're basically kicking me out as a happy user. I would love to continue using Signal, not sure what the motivation for this change is in the first place.
They're basically kicking me out as a happy user. I would love to continue using Signal, not sure what the motivation for this change is in the first place.
They're dropping it because the world is moving to RCS, and there's no API they (or anyone) can use to interact with RCS.
Not dropping SMS would mean people getting annoyed at signal silently losing messages, as people use it to send SMS to which the recipient responds over RCS.
Not dropping SMS would mean people getting annoyed at signal silently losing messages, as people use it to send SMS to which the recipient responds over RCS.
> They're dropping it because the world is moving to RCS,
The "world" does not include iOS. In the USA, that's 55% of mobile phone users.
With that in mind, lets go back to their reasons here https://community.signalusers.org/t/signal-blog-removing-sms... :
1. RCS is coming, and it doesn’t play well with Signal. I once had a situation when I was sending SMS to one of my friends via Signal, but I wasn’t seeing any of their responses
Same will happen for iOS users. If Google/Android breaks SMS that badly for everyone I'll be dropping Google's Messenger. I expect most people would.
2. Proper SMS/MMS support is hard.
No, I've done it, it's not hard. There aren't that many API's, and they've been stable for yonks. Yes, it may cause support issues. In fact I generated one. I sent my wife an SMS, and it didn't arrive. I posted a support question. Moxie(!) responded: we just use the Android API to send the message. I looked at the source. He was absolutely right, of course (why did I doubt it). It was a Samsung bug in the end.
3. SMS/MMS has plenty of it’s own bugs.
Really? You are claiming the most used messaging platform on the planet is so riddled with bugs you can't support it.
4. Spam.
What? I will still have SMS. Everyone will. We will all continue to get the get the same spam. It will just come through another app.
5. Finally, Signal having SMS support gives a lot of people the wrong impression of SMS. They think that because it’s Signal sending it, it’s actually secure.
This where it clicked this was a marketing post.
After reading all that I still don't know what engineering justification is. I presume there is one - maybe it's the level of support calls. Hell maybe they plan to introduce a paid version that does support SMS. If they do and it's a few bucks a year, I would pay it and say "nicely played boys".
The "world" does not include iOS. In the USA, that's 55% of mobile phone users.
With that in mind, lets go back to their reasons here https://community.signalusers.org/t/signal-blog-removing-sms... :
1. RCS is coming, and it doesn’t play well with Signal. I once had a situation when I was sending SMS to one of my friends via Signal, but I wasn’t seeing any of their responses
Same will happen for iOS users. If Google/Android breaks SMS that badly for everyone I'll be dropping Google's Messenger. I expect most people would.
2. Proper SMS/MMS support is hard.
No, I've done it, it's not hard. There aren't that many API's, and they've been stable for yonks. Yes, it may cause support issues. In fact I generated one. I sent my wife an SMS, and it didn't arrive. I posted a support question. Moxie(!) responded: we just use the Android API to send the message. I looked at the source. He was absolutely right, of course (why did I doubt it). It was a Samsung bug in the end.
3. SMS/MMS has plenty of it’s own bugs.
Really? You are claiming the most used messaging platform on the planet is so riddled with bugs you can't support it.
4. Spam.
What? I will still have SMS. Everyone will. We will all continue to get the get the same spam. It will just come through another app.
5. Finally, Signal having SMS support gives a lot of people the wrong impression of SMS. They think that because it’s Signal sending it, it’s actually secure.
This where it clicked this was a marketing post.
After reading all that I still don't know what engineering justification is. I presume there is one - maybe it's the level of support calls. Hell maybe they plan to introduce a paid version that does support SMS. If they do and it's a few bucks a year, I would pay it and say "nicely played boys".
Doesn't this only affect group chats?
I already have. I only use Signal for pre-existing conversations now. It's quite the shame.
Not only I uninstalled Signal, but I also deleted my account, and in the process Signal made a huge mess of my SMS.
First thing, I am not an activist like Moxie. I think end-to-end encryption is a good thing, but it is not on top of my list. My primary reason for choosing a messaging app is to actually be able to message people, then there is the app general quality (fast, light on resources, stable, with the features I need, ...), encryption comes third. Signal had all three, SMS is almost universal in my country, it looked like a decent app that holds it own against dedicated SMS apps, and you have encryption as a bonus, nice.
With SMS gone, it lost #1, I don't have any friends who are on Signal that can't be reached by other means, so that's enough to let it go.
So I exported my SMS, and for some reason it exported it all as both SMS and MMS, making a huge mess that took a while to fix. In the process, in order to recover my data, I took a peek at the code, and while not terrible, it wasn't the best, for example, I stumbled upon some dead code. So with data loss involved, #2 is seriously compromised. Other issues include Signal "eating" SMS, not allowing them into their standard location (probably deliberate, but a negative for me), and for the final releases, SMS acknowledgment not working. I had trouble importing SMS at first too.
And finally, while it has top notch encryption, and probably a good choice for targeted individuals, I consider the "X is on Signal" notifications questionable with regard to privacy. Just because we share entries on our address book don't mean we want to get in touch. In fact what if the reason I have someone in my address book is to block him? I know it has caused major trouble to someone. Also, when I first entered Signal, I was greeted by a scammer sporting the Amazon logo. Not a big deal, not the worst, spam is almost unavoidable, but it is another thing Signal don't protect you much against.
With SMS support, I tolerated all these little quirks, it wasn't so bad, but without SMS, then it is out. And I am also a little pissed off for that export mess.
As for why I also deleted my account. It wasn't in anger. Problem is, what if I uninstall signal and if someone I recently texted installed Signal? Most likely he would send his next messages via Signal instead of by SMS. If I didn't delete my account, the message would have been lost in limbo. By deleting my account, they will know I don't have the app anymore, and if they really wish to contact me, do it another way (ex: by SMS).
First thing, I am not an activist like Moxie. I think end-to-end encryption is a good thing, but it is not on top of my list. My primary reason for choosing a messaging app is to actually be able to message people, then there is the app general quality (fast, light on resources, stable, with the features I need, ...), encryption comes third. Signal had all three, SMS is almost universal in my country, it looked like a decent app that holds it own against dedicated SMS apps, and you have encryption as a bonus, nice.
With SMS gone, it lost #1, I don't have any friends who are on Signal that can't be reached by other means, so that's enough to let it go.
So I exported my SMS, and for some reason it exported it all as both SMS and MMS, making a huge mess that took a while to fix. In the process, in order to recover my data, I took a peek at the code, and while not terrible, it wasn't the best, for example, I stumbled upon some dead code. So with data loss involved, #2 is seriously compromised. Other issues include Signal "eating" SMS, not allowing them into their standard location (probably deliberate, but a negative for me), and for the final releases, SMS acknowledgment not working. I had trouble importing SMS at first too.
And finally, while it has top notch encryption, and probably a good choice for targeted individuals, I consider the "X is on Signal" notifications questionable with regard to privacy. Just because we share entries on our address book don't mean we want to get in touch. In fact what if the reason I have someone in my address book is to block him? I know it has caused major trouble to someone. Also, when I first entered Signal, I was greeted by a scammer sporting the Amazon logo. Not a big deal, not the worst, spam is almost unavoidable, but it is another thing Signal don't protect you much against.
With SMS support, I tolerated all these little quirks, it wasn't so bad, but without SMS, then it is out. And I am also a little pissed off for that export mess.
As for why I also deleted my account. It wasn't in anger. Problem is, what if I uninstall signal and if someone I recently texted installed Signal? Most likely he would send his next messages via Signal instead of by SMS. If I didn't delete my account, the message would have been lost in limbo. By deleting my account, they will know I don't have the app anymore, and if they really wish to contact me, do it another way (ex: by SMS).
Everyone is different, personally I didn't even know they had sms messaging. What's the point of that? Are they e2ee between Signal SMS users?
Imho Signal is great for novice users. I even have my mom on it.
Imho Signal is great for novice users. I even have my mom on it.
The point is that I can use one app for all messaging, and if the other party has opted in, it's encrypted. Generally, I don't care whether or not any particular message is encrypted, but I want the world's communication to be encrypted by default. Using Signal as my main messaging app was a frictionless way to do that, while it included SMS. Now that they are dropping support for that, I will likely stop using Signal altogether, which means that more messages will be unencrypted. It's a loss for the world, but the friction is too high for me to use multiple apps.
Zillions of people in the US use SMS exclusively and convincing them to switch to a more secure platform required making it easy. You might not have a problem with using multiple messaging apps but it sure confuses the hell out of my mother.
> Are they e2ee between Signal SMS users?
Fun fact, they used to be. When I started using Signal that's how it worked.
Fun fact, they used to be. When I started using Signal that's how it worked.
Indeed, sending a little invite, saying "Install signal ..."
Sadly that's exactly what every phishing attack wants you to do.
Sadly that's exactly what every phishing attack wants you to do.
I still feel that discontinuing SMS support was misguided, but I need to give Signal kudos for adding functionality to transfer your SMS history back to your phone, so that your messages won't get trapped into their app.
We are not used to companies being that nice to their user base when their business plans change.
We are not used to companies being that nice to their user base when their business plans change.
I've always found the SMS integration to be lackluster and subpar. I switched back to using a dedicated App because there was no added value to using their SMS capabilities.
If the only thing keeping Signal on your phone is supporting SMS then you don't need Signal.
If the only thing keeping Signal on your phone is supporting SMS then you don't need Signal.
This is always the sort of thing people say when they don't bother to look at other people's use cases.
I see this one a lot, mostly on HN. Nobody I actually know who uses Signal has raised that complaint. Having used multiple messaging apps for my entire adult life, I find resistance to it from technically literate people kind of surprising.
On any given day, I'm likely to use Signal, Whatsapp, Facebook Messenger, Discord, Slack, Matrix, and IRC. I'd like to get my contacts off a couple of those, but mostly not because it would reduce the number.
On any given day, I'm likely to use Signal, Whatsapp, Facebook Messenger, Discord, Slack, Matrix, and IRC. I'd like to get my contacts off a couple of those, but mostly not because it would reduce the number.
Good thing your use case and willingness to interact with technology is the same as everybody else's.
It's not worth it discussing Signal on HN. Circle jerk is too wide.
Not even close to as big as the one that pretends to be the authority on other people's use cases and willingness to interact with technology.
Like I said: it's too wide and Signal can't rarely be discussed on HN without matrix fanboys ruining the conversation.
Signal keeps pestering me to allow access to contacts and to turn on notifications. There is no “No, I don’t want to” option. Only a “Not Now” option where the app will tell you “We’ll remind you later”. Within a few days, it will pester again. It has been this way for years, IIRC.
How such an obnoxious and intrusive set of features continues to exist baffles me. One would think that a self-proclaimed pro-privacy app would know to leave the user alone and to respect the user’s choice.
So no, Signal is not for everyone. Signal pretending to be for everyone is disingenuous.
How such an obnoxious and intrusive set of features continues to exist baffles me. One would think that a self-proclaimed pro-privacy app would know to leave the user alone and to respect the user’s choice.
So no, Signal is not for everyone. Signal pretending to be for everyone is disingenuous.
What platform are you on? I use signal on android. I declined it access to my contacts on initial installation and it hasn't asked since.
All-or-nothing is not a sufficient replacement for this use case. Given access to contacts, it's the app's choice to not give the user a "never (for this contact)" option. This is a blatantly pricacy-disrespecting feature with no off switch.
When announcing that a workaround works for you, you derail the conversation with disingenuity unless you're entertaining the notion that your workaround is not actually equivalent to a solution.
Sorry, just got around to reading all that nonsense you wrote there. I'm not sure if you have problems with comprehension or something but you seem to have misread what I wrote.
I simply asked what platform he was on as I don't actually have the same problem he seems to have. No workaround offered - simply curious as to why he was getting repeated notifications and I wasn't.
You're a bit disingenuous in the way you seem to be handing out unwanted and unwarranted moral guidance based on simple questions people ask.
You're a bit disingenuous in the way you seem to be handing out unwanted and unwarranted moral guidance based on simple questions people ask.
> There is no “No, I don’t want to” option. Only a “Not Now” option where the app will tell you “We’ll remind you later”.
These kind of shenanigans are a good indicator of whether a product team is worth trusting or not, and whether they have any faith in their product decisions or not.
These kind of shenanigans are a good indicator of whether a product team is worth trusting or not, and whether they have any faith in their product decisions or not.
And meanwhile they won't trust us enough with a sync function because general hand waving about how it could be abused.
Which platform are you using signal on? I'm on iOS (and also sync my chats on my MacBook) and I've only had to decline all of that only once.
On iOS and iPadOS. The pestering has been going on for a few years now.
I'm the same, I'm on android. It asked me once and hasn't asked since.
I wish they would drop the support of phone number registration. As stated in the article, not everyone has access to a phone number and not everyone can maintain the same phone number.
I miss the old internet where you only needed a username and a password.
I miss the old internet where you only needed a username and a password.
Telegram solved this problem, they just sold a fake numbers on blockchain where you can get a number without leaving a trace and stay completely anonymous while keeping number-based model. Plus, additional monetization.
In what way is selling on blockchain “without leaving a trace”? The whole point of blockchain is that trace is publicly viewable
It doesn't leave a trace if you don't look for it!
Last time I tried using Telegram it required a phone and a number. Has anything changed since then?
Edit: Just tried it again, and I cannot register on Linux without a phone number. Here is a screenshot: https://i.imgur.com/WcnHBx1.png
Edit: Just tried it again, and I cannot register on Linux without a phone number. Here is a screenshot: https://i.imgur.com/WcnHBx1.png
Pretty recently (one year or so), they started their blockcain numbers. You can get a random one for free, or a "vanity" one if you buy it... I guess they are mined somehow? They all start with 888.
I wish signal did something similar.
Edit: find the numbers here: https://fragment.com/numbers
It's probably affiliated with Telegram, I'm not sure.
I wish signal did something similar.
Edit: find the numbers here: https://fragment.com/numbers
It's probably affiliated with Telegram, I'm not sure.
> and I cannot register on Linux without a phone number.
Yep, but it doesn't have to be a real, publicly routable one. You can get one from Telegram without having to provide government provided ID like I have to for real phone numbers. See sibling comment.
Yep, but it doesn't have to be a real, publicly routable one. You can get one from Telegram without having to provide government provided ID like I have to for real phone numbers. See sibling comment.
Signal allows changing phone numbers: https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007062012-Ch...
> As stated in the article, not everyone has access to a phone number and not everyone can maintain the same phone number.
The article does not say that. I would argue that having a phone number is a very basic thing, and if you don’t have it, you are unlikely to have access to the Internet either. Phone numbers are a nice way to ensure you’re a human.
> As stated in the article, not everyone has access to a phone number and not everyone can maintain the same phone number.
The article does not say that. I would argue that having a phone number is a very basic thing, and if you don’t have it, you are unlikely to have access to the Internet either. Phone numbers are a nice way to ensure you’re a human.
So Signal isn't for everyone, because it's not for people in China who disagree with the Chinese government.
Requiring a phone number means it's not for everyone, period.
Requiring a phone number means it's not for everyone, period.
The article you linked requires them to have access to the old phone.
There was a post a few weeks ago about how homeless people struggle to retain their phones, going through a new phone every week [0].
Personally, when I travel, I don’t always have my US phone number available. If my phone is stolen while I’m abroad, I can’t get a new phone or recover my phone number until I return, which could be months later.
Signal is not for everyone and them claiming it is makes me trust them less.
[0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33120534
There was a post a few weeks ago about how homeless people struggle to retain their phones, going through a new phone every week [0].
Personally, when I travel, I don’t always have my US phone number available. If my phone is stolen while I’m abroad, I can’t get a new phone or recover my phone number until I return, which could be months later.
Signal is not for everyone and them claiming it is makes me trust them less.
[0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33120534
There are people in the world who don't have a phone. amazing eh
And yet they have a computer?
It's pretty common to buy/beg/borrow an old cell phone and just use it over wifi. Especially kids or anyone who is tight on money. Food/water/shelter ranks much higher than cell service and monthly server + Data plan (required for signal) isn't cheap.
Yes. In the USA, people use the free library computers. In foreign countries, people rent computers in cyber cafes.
kids at home could have tablet without SIM and use signal to communicate with parents away from home
I get the use of "stickers" and voice messages (btw "stickers" uugh this is just a new name for an old thing, it's just image-based emojis, phpbb back again.. but well, someone thought this feature needed a name). These are actually ok communication tools.
But stories ffs. Having stories in a privacy oriented chat app feels like building an electric hummer and calling it climate friendly. The whole "stories" ux is short-video attention bait for viewers, and "get more data online" bait with addictive reward for uploaders. Just zoom out and look at what you're doing, perhaps some stuff is plain user-hostile ux and should not just get slapped a "organic" stamp. And yes, perhaps some users will have grown into the habit of using this thing. Maybe this isn't a reason for accepting everything.
edit: i get it, i'm screaming at clouds, at this point it's pretty clear that signal's position is quite consensual in its social-media and tech establishment critique. For one they actually are part of it and second they market themselves as "mainstream".. But still, every time they blog on how they're such good guys i'm getting triggered. It's nice they exist but they bow down to so much.
But stories ffs. Having stories in a privacy oriented chat app feels like building an electric hummer and calling it climate friendly. The whole "stories" ux is short-video attention bait for viewers, and "get more data online" bait with addictive reward for uploaders. Just zoom out and look at what you're doing, perhaps some stuff is plain user-hostile ux and should not just get slapped a "organic" stamp. And yes, perhaps some users will have grown into the habit of using this thing. Maybe this isn't a reason for accepting everything.
edit: i get it, i'm screaming at clouds, at this point it's pretty clear that signal's position is quite consensual in its social-media and tech establishment critique. For one they actually are part of it and second they market themselves as "mainstream".. But still, every time they blog on how they're such good guys i'm getting triggered. It's nice they exist but they bow down to so much.
My family uses Signal for both real-time messaging and sharing very low priority photos of what everyone is up to. Stories sounded like a perfect way to declutter the group chats.
Unfortunately the 24h expiration period made it unusable; most of us have pretty good habits around screen time and frequently missed expired posts.
Unfortunately the 24h expiration period made it unusable; most of us have pretty good habits around screen time and frequently missed expired posts.
> This has resulted in a too-familiar pattern, where tech companies based in the US make assumptions and decisions grounded in the instincts, perspectives, and relatively narrow experiences of US-based engineers, designers, and product managers. This isn’t because the people at these companies are necessarily trying to project their view onto others. But we all are shaped by our context, and in the worst case, these assumptions are exported as though one size fits all.
This sounds particularly tone deaf with them removing SMS support despite relatively vocal opposition. Signal made a one size fits all assumption, taking an extreme position that their users are just too stupid to tell unencrypted SMS messages apart from encrypted Signal messages, and so in the interest of "protecting the privacy" of their users, many are going to drop Signal entirely instead of enjoying the benefits of gradual encryption that Signal provided.
In my experience convincing friends, relatives, acquaintances to give Signal a chance only worked because it wasn't just another useless app on their phone that they would have to use just to talk to me, it was a useful replacement with clear benefits - they could use it to talk to anyone, but we (and anyone else they convinced to join) could enjoy encrypted conversations, inside of the same app.
Everyone IS different, that's why Signal is not for everyone, not anymore. It's just another app in the sea of communication apps and I don't see myself or any of the Signal contacts that I've onboarded sticking around.
This sounds particularly tone deaf with them removing SMS support despite relatively vocal opposition. Signal made a one size fits all assumption, taking an extreme position that their users are just too stupid to tell unencrypted SMS messages apart from encrypted Signal messages, and so in the interest of "protecting the privacy" of their users, many are going to drop Signal entirely instead of enjoying the benefits of gradual encryption that Signal provided.
In my experience convincing friends, relatives, acquaintances to give Signal a chance only worked because it wasn't just another useless app on their phone that they would have to use just to talk to me, it was a useful replacement with clear benefits - they could use it to talk to anyone, but we (and anyone else they convinced to join) could enjoy encrypted conversations, inside of the same app.
Everyone IS different, that's why Signal is not for everyone, not anymore. It's just another app in the sea of communication apps and I don't see myself or any of the Signal contacts that I've onboarded sticking around.
Ultimately though signal is yet another centralized messaging platform that can pull the rug on you at any time, and using a different client to use that platform is officially forbidden.
I was fooled by the relatively open nature of the client, but ultimately it's still a closed, private network.
If your social circle allows this, push for a true open network.
I was fooled by the relatively open nature of the client, but ultimately it's still a closed, private network.
If your social circle allows this, push for a true open network.
Any suggestions? The app must have seamless SMS support.
All Skype and Facebook Messenger both with SMS support have same issues as Signal, centralized and from even worse big corps. AFAIK there is no IM with SMS support, I wished someone made Matrix client with SMS, it would be insta replacement for my dedicated SMS app and I need SMS support pretty much just to receive verification codes, delivery information etc and once in a few months writing SMS to kidnergarten my sick kid won't come, nobody use and will use RCS, so Signal can keep that BS excuse.
Has the financial situation of Signal changed recently? I've noticed in the last few weeks that it often nags me to donate when I open the app now.
Why didn't they address their shitcoins in that blog post?
They tried to justify their stickers, infra and stories but radio silence on MobileCoin.
They tried to justify their stickers, infra and stories but radio silence on MobileCoin.
I have been a huge fan of Signal for the last few years, but now it has me scratching my head with their questionable product decisions. This article not only doesn't help, but makes me even more worried about them getting infected with the progressive fever dream. It sounds like another company that went from "we protect your chats" to "we solve society's ills". I mean, call me crazy, but I just want to send a message without worrying about Big Brother, not join a crusade to save the world.
I like this app. Zero real annoyance with it. They have some pin they ask me to keep typing in which I have no idea what it's for but I do it anyway out of muscle memory.
>I do it anyway out of muscle memory
That is literally why. They want you to remember the pin in case you need to recover your account.
That is literally why. They want you to remember the pin in case you need to recover your account.
Ha, I agree that the pin prompt is confusing. If you're curious, it's used as a passcode for the on-device key. You need it e.g. if you're transferring messages to a new device.
Signal isn't for everyone, because it's not for people in China who disagree with the Chinese government.
Requiring a phone number means it's not for everyone, period.
Requiring a phone number means it's not for everyone, period.
I hate that I lost all my Signal conversations after I replayed a backup onto my iPhone. The reason is simply: Signal excludes itself from the iPhone backup. And there is no way to change or configure that. You will only find out about that „feature“ when it is too late.
I will continue to use Signal. I refuse to use WhatsApp, instagram, Facebook... What am I missing out on? Hell if I care. Eventually if you want to communicate with me you will use the channels I require, otherwise so long. Really has helped me to pair down on useless long distance relations that offer nothing to my life other than obligation.
> I will continue to use Signal. I refuse to use WhatsApp, instagram, Facebook...
How about a truly free, distributed network: Matrix?
How about a truly free, distributed network: Matrix?
It'd be great if Signal was also for people who like to use Markdown.
The greatest barrier to me pushing people I know to use Signal is the lack of features real-world needs and wants from its users in an infuriatingly paternalistic manner.
For example: most people want to be able to back up and/or transfer messages to a new device (which can happen every few years) or sync to another device such as their desktop so that (gasp) they can see message history when corresponding with someone.
Probably half a dozen times in the last 5-6 years I have lost all my Signal messages.
Most recently, I did a full, encrypted backup of my iPhone to my Mac (which has FDE via the T2 chip) prior to doing a device wipe because it was starting to feel sluggish. All the devices involved have the best security of any handheld/portable computer commonly available and the data was DOUBLE encrypted on my Mac. Every other app's settings restored fine....but not Signal. They exclude their data store from the backups so I lost numerous messages, photos, etc from a couple of friends. Those messages are gone forever.
I can't use Signal for any transactions with other people, even something like a simple Craigslist deal, because there's no way to export messages to provide them as evidence, other than to take a screenshot. So Signal is also useless to lawyers and business executives, too.
When you ask them why they don't support the various things like exports and syncing, there's a lot of general, paranoid hand-waving about how if you're a reporter or human rights worker in a third world country those features could be abused...like said reporter or human rights worker wouldn't simply be tortured until they unlocked their device...also ignoring that it should be perfectly possible to allow the user to choose (gasp!) whether they want to enable such features. Ie: let them decide for themselves what their risk profile is.
You know why their claims are bullshit? Because they've never implemented a duress password that unlocks the app but only shows messages from, say, friends but hides messages and contacts you don't want people to see.
When I mention syncing people start shrieking about cloud storage this and that...which you don't need to sync two devices, as demonstrated by syncthing, magic wormhole, and a slew of other programs that are device-to-device with, at most, a zero-knowledge coordinating proxy, which Signal already has.
So can I please be allowed to back up / export my messages and call history? Can I please see my message and call history in the desktop app? Would you please support backing up my message history to another device with the best fucking device security in the world, that is double-encrypted?
For example: most people want to be able to back up and/or transfer messages to a new device (which can happen every few years) or sync to another device such as their desktop so that (gasp) they can see message history when corresponding with someone.
Probably half a dozen times in the last 5-6 years I have lost all my Signal messages.
Most recently, I did a full, encrypted backup of my iPhone to my Mac (which has FDE via the T2 chip) prior to doing a device wipe because it was starting to feel sluggish. All the devices involved have the best security of any handheld/portable computer commonly available and the data was DOUBLE encrypted on my Mac. Every other app's settings restored fine....but not Signal. They exclude their data store from the backups so I lost numerous messages, photos, etc from a couple of friends. Those messages are gone forever.
I can't use Signal for any transactions with other people, even something like a simple Craigslist deal, because there's no way to export messages to provide them as evidence, other than to take a screenshot. So Signal is also useless to lawyers and business executives, too.
When you ask them why they don't support the various things like exports and syncing, there's a lot of general, paranoid hand-waving about how if you're a reporter or human rights worker in a third world country those features could be abused...like said reporter or human rights worker wouldn't simply be tortured until they unlocked their device...also ignoring that it should be perfectly possible to allow the user to choose (gasp!) whether they want to enable such features. Ie: let them decide for themselves what their risk profile is.
You know why their claims are bullshit? Because they've never implemented a duress password that unlocks the app but only shows messages from, say, friends but hides messages and contacts you don't want people to see.
When I mention syncing people start shrieking about cloud storage this and that...which you don't need to sync two devices, as demonstrated by syncthing, magic wormhole, and a slew of other programs that are device-to-device with, at most, a zero-knowledge coordinating proxy, which Signal already has.
So can I please be allowed to back up / export my messages and call history? Can I please see my message and call history in the desktop app? Would you please support backing up my message history to another device with the best fucking device security in the world, that is double-encrypted?
I think that was fixed a year or more ago. Just install new signal on new phone and when it launches it asks "migrate messages?". Click yes, the phone figure it out, and you approve the transfer on your old phone.
I've done it several times without problem. I had something like 40k messages, so it does take awhile, but has a helpful progress bar.
About 2 years ago, it was much more painful involving a back and restore, which I got working, but was kinda painful.
I've done it several times without problem. I had something like 40k messages, so it does take awhile, but has a helpful progress bar.
About 2 years ago, it was much more painful involving a back and restore, which I got working, but was kinda painful.
> So can I please be allowed to back up / export my messages and call history?
You can totally back up and export your Signal messages on Android. You export to a file (encrypted with a generated pin), copy that file to a new device, and import that file into Signal. I've done it several times and have never lost a message.
You can totally back up and export your Signal messages on Android. You export to a file (encrypted with a generated pin), copy that file to a new device, and import that file into Signal. I've done it several times and have never lost a message.
They won't let you decide where the backup goes. I have a huge, almost empty SD card that I bought specifically to back up my data onto, but since you can't choose the save location you're limited to whatever free space exists in the phone's itneral storage. The only way I can back up my Signal data would be if I uninstalled everything else from my phone, in which case I might have enough space.
And I don't want it only as an encrypted blob to bring back into Signal though of course that option should be available. I would actually like the abilityt o export it in a format of my choosing.
And I don't want it only as an encrypted blob to bring back into Signal though of course that option should be available. I would actually like the abilityt o export it in a format of my choosing.
> They won't let you decide where the backup goes.
I don't think so. At some point I setup my Signal to send backups to (I think) the "/Signal/Backups2" directory on my phone. My phone doesn't support SD cards, so there may be some quirk with those, but I definitely had some control.
> And I don't want it only as an encrypted blob to bring back into Signal though of course that option should be available. I would actually like the abilityt o export it in a format of my choosing.
That's a nice to have, but it's totally reasonable for them not to support a bunch of random formats someone might like, but hardly anyone would ever use.
If you want a different format, just write a converter. It wouldn't be very hard. The backup is literally an encrypted SQLite DB, and there's a command-line decryptor available (if you have your key).
I don't think so. At some point I setup my Signal to send backups to (I think) the "/Signal/Backups2" directory on my phone. My phone doesn't support SD cards, so there may be some quirk with those, but I definitely had some control.
> And I don't want it only as an encrypted blob to bring back into Signal though of course that option should be available. I would actually like the abilityt o export it in a format of my choosing.
That's a nice to have, but it's totally reasonable for them not to support a bunch of random formats someone might like, but hardly anyone would ever use.
If you want a different format, just write a converter. It wouldn't be very hard. The backup is literally an encrypted SQLite DB, and there's a command-line decryptor available (if you have your key).
I'm looking at it right now and you can see the folder it's saved to, but there is no way to change it. The Desktop version doesn't include any backup option at all.
The backup is literally an encrypted SQLite DB
I know this, but they don't exactly make any effort to tell you. While I agree that they can't support every possible format they could certainly offer CSV, JSON, and SQLite.
The backup is literally an encrypted SQLite DB
I know this, but they don't exactly make any effort to tell you. While I agree that they can't support every possible format they could certainly offer CSV, JSON, and SQLite.
> As we continue to build Signal to be an alternative to the surveillance tech that dominates most of our digital communication, we will remain attuned to the different ways that people want to connect and build ways for them to do so without compromising on their own privacy, wherever they are.
You require a phone number for your service to be used. That is a clear compromise on privacy, and you have no intention of changing it. Spammers can easily use my number to send me garbage. (Edit: you also require that users have Google Play or the App Store.)
You are anti-diverse since you are hostile to desktop users. Also, you are pro-harassment (Edit: people here think harassment requires intimidation) because you teach people that no doesn't mean no; I say no to donating and you keep asking me.
You require a phone number for your service to be used. That is a clear compromise on privacy, and you have no intention of changing it. Spammers can easily use my number to send me garbage. (Edit: you also require that users have Google Play or the App Store.)
You are anti-diverse since you are hostile to desktop users. Also, you are pro-harassment (Edit: people here think harassment requires intimidation) because you teach people that no doesn't mean no; I say no to donating and you keep asking me.
It's a compromise on anonymity, not privacy. But I agree with it, it's a compromise on anonymity because it avoids having to use another identifier and another social graph.
My entire extended family uses Signal, and I didn't even onboard them, my 69 year old mother (a retired special education teacher) did, because it uses your existing contact list to message people. I didn't need to walk people through account creation, we didn't need to exchange usernames. Even my 92 year old grandfather was able to get Signal to work. He's not great at typing on a smartphone, but he's figured out video calling, opening pictures, and voice memos.
I think that's a decent audience to shoot for.
My entire extended family uses Signal, and I didn't even onboard them, my 69 year old mother (a retired special education teacher) did, because it uses your existing contact list to message people. I didn't need to walk people through account creation, we didn't need to exchange usernames. Even my 92 year old grandfather was able to get Signal to work. He's not great at typing on a smartphone, but he's figured out video calling, opening pictures, and voice memos.
I think that's a decent audience to shoot for.
Supporting phone numbers is a different question than supporting only phone numbers.
> You are anti-diverse since you are hostile to desktop users.
Huh? Signal desktop has all the features of the phone, as far as I can tell.
Very strange definition of diversity!
> Also, you are pro-harassment because you teach people that no doesn't mean no; I say no to donating and you keep asking me.
If this is what you call harassment, count yourself lucky in life. :)
Huh? Signal desktop has all the features of the phone, as far as I can tell.
Very strange definition of diversity!
> Also, you are pro-harassment because you teach people that no doesn't mean no; I say no to donating and you keep asking me.
If this is what you call harassment, count yourself lucky in life. :)
No it doesn't. You can't export/backup on desktop, for example. I'd like to back up signal database to the SD card on my phone, because I don't have enough space to d it on the internal storage, but the app won't let you choose where your backup goes. So if you have a large message database that takes up more than half your built-in storage, you're SOL.
HKH2(2)
> and you have no intention of changing it.
https://signal.org/blog/building-faster-oram/
> It lays the groundwork for the introduction of usernames and phone number privacy which will offer new privacy controls around your phone number’s visibility on Signal.
and
> Usernames have been one of the most requested features throughout Signal’s existence. Making usernames and phone number privacy a reality in Signal is a massive technical undertaking. It’s something we’ve been working on for a long time and will continue to work on for several more months or longer before it’s ready.
https://signal.org/blog/building-faster-oram/
> It lays the groundwork for the introduction of usernames and phone number privacy which will offer new privacy controls around your phone number’s visibility on Signal.
and
> Usernames have been one of the most requested features throughout Signal’s existence. Making usernames and phone number privacy a reality in Signal is a massive technical undertaking. It’s something we’ve been working on for a long time and will continue to work on for several more months or longer before it’s ready.
I wish I could get one without my phone number, but it is a way to control spamming and limit people to one signal, and to find each other. But I don't think they are anti-diverse, that is an extreme over-reach. They have desktop signal for all 3 major desktops and it works just fine by all reports. The only thing they don't have is the ability to have it on 2 phones at one time. If you think signal is pro-harassment then the entire world is pro-harassment by your standard, that's a very silly claim.
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> (Edit: you also require that users have Google Play or the App Store.)
This is incorrect. You don't need Google Play to use Signal on Android. You can download the APK from https://signal.org/android/apk/
Then verify with SHA256 and you're golden.
This is incorrect. You don't need Google Play to use Signal on Android. You can download the APK from https://signal.org/android/apk/
Then verify with SHA256 and you're golden.
And to pre-empt the followup misinfo: you can also use that without Google Play Services. I do.
Exactly. It is for 'everyone'. Including criminals, gangsters, money launderers like SBF and those using Signal's encrypted cryptocurrency wallet (MobileCoin), terrorists and illegal drug traffickers.
If Microsoft, Google, and Amazon wanted to, they could just refuse service to Signal due to this and cut them off their services for facilitating that since they are centrally using their services.
If they can do it to Parler, they can also do it to Signal as well. Easy.
If Microsoft, Google, and Amazon wanted to, they could just refuse service to Signal due to this and cut them off their services for facilitating that since they are centrally using their services.
If they can do it to Parler, they can also do it to Signal as well. Easy.
Do criminals and launderers not use Microsoft, Google or Amazon apps and services?
I too am a moral narcissist that loves when massive corporations project their power outside the market to coerce people into certain behaviors. I can't possibly imagine that ever backfiring.
Why are people so focused on the "messaging" aspect of crime? You don't hear them calling for anything else to be cancelled that allows criminals to be criminals. Window shades give criminals privacy too, but nobody's is calling for the cancelling of window shades.
I would guess because law enforcement can go into your house and peek at whatever it is you’re hiding behind the curtains but encrypted messages prevent this.
Folks advocating for gun and border restrictions both focus on crime (mass shootings for the former, trafficking for the latter).
Criminals also use fiat currencies. Should ban that too.
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I really hope they reconsider their decision.