‘Preparing to die has a lot to do with having had a good life’(english.elpais.com)
english.elpais.com
‘Preparing to die has a lot to do with having had a good life’
https://english.elpais.com/science-tech/2023-04-01/henry-marsh-preparing-to-die-has-a-lot-to-do-with-having-had-a-good-life.html
136 comments
I had two related revelations.
First, all my most important pictures have people I care about it in them.
Second, I watched family-in-law going through old family photographs and discarding objectively wonderful but unmarked photos of people that no one could identify anymore, and heavily filtering photos of family members that were identifiable but no one still alive had known.
I had not put two and two together before that point, but even your own great grandchildren will not treasure photos of you and your exploits. And why would they? They are strangers. It is no different with myself and my own great grandparents, even if I wish otherwise.
It reframed the purpose of photography for me. In a sense its whole function is really as a memory aid, to help me recall good times, connect over shared memories, and strengthen my personal bond with friends and family.
I do really hope that “alone” is not the fate for everyone, although I haven’t figured out how that’s supposed to happen in an age where friends and family uproot and spread around the globe like leaves in the breeze.
First, all my most important pictures have people I care about it in them.
Second, I watched family-in-law going through old family photographs and discarding objectively wonderful but unmarked photos of people that no one could identify anymore, and heavily filtering photos of family members that were identifiable but no one still alive had known.
I had not put two and two together before that point, but even your own great grandchildren will not treasure photos of you and your exploits. And why would they? They are strangers. It is no different with myself and my own great grandparents, even if I wish otherwise.
It reframed the purpose of photography for me. In a sense its whole function is really as a memory aid, to help me recall good times, connect over shared memories, and strengthen my personal bond with friends and family.
I do really hope that “alone” is not the fate for everyone, although I haven’t figured out how that’s supposed to happen in an age where friends and family uproot and spread around the globe like leaves in the breeze.
I thought about this too. I am and only child and have no biological children. My stepsons were already 9 and 14 when we got married and they were never close to my parents and neither is my wife.
I will probably make digital copies of the pictures and get rid of most of them. But when I die, I have no allusion that anyone else will care. Honestly, my wife will probably be the last person who cares about my pictures.
I will probably make digital copies of the pictures and get rid of most of them. But when I die, I have no allusion that anyone else will care. Honestly, my wife will probably be the last person who cares about my pictures.
I might have to reframe my photographic thoughts...
A long time ago (during the film era) I remember taking all kinds of photos on vacation. I would routinely take photos of mountains and rivers and other beautiful landmarks. But in the end, when I would get the batch of photos back from the lab, having people in the image made it more interesting, and people I knew much more so.
I wonder if time will invert things and the interest will revert back to the landmarks.
A long time ago (during the film era) I remember taking all kinds of photos on vacation. I would routinely take photos of mountains and rivers and other beautiful landmarks. But in the end, when I would get the batch of photos back from the lab, having people in the image made it more interesting, and people I knew much more so.
I wonder if time will invert things and the interest will revert back to the landmarks.
Personally I'm more interested in pictures of landmarks without people, and that's most of what I take pictures of (although I take some pictures of people as well).
May be this is why Bhagwat Gita suggests living like a Yogi. Dispatch all your duties, do everything but never get attached to anything, not even your kids.
नैव किञ्चित्करोमीति युक्तो मन्येत तत्त्ववित् | पश्यञ्शृण्वन्स्पृशञ्जिघ्रन्नश्नन्गच्छन्स्वपञ्श्वसन् ||5.8|| प्रलपन्विसृजन्गृह्ण्न्नुन्मिषन्निमिषन्नपि | इन्द्रियाणीन्द्रियार्थेषु वर्तन्त इति धारयन् ||5.9||
Those steadfast in karm yog, always think, “I am not the doer,” even while engaged in seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, moving, sleeping, breathing, speaking, excreting, grasping, and opening or closing the eyes. With the light of divine knowledge, they see that it is only the material senses that are moving amongst their objects.
Ancient Indians divided the life into 4 phases namely Brahmcharya(learning phase), Grihasth(family life), Sanyas(detachment), Vanprasth(leaving for Jungle).Last phase emphasised on living and dying alone in the Jungle away from family and fame. Modern Indians have lost these messages primarily because they have stopped reading.
नैव किञ्चित्करोमीति युक्तो मन्येत तत्त्ववित् | पश्यञ्शृण्वन्स्पृशञ्जिघ्रन्नश्नन्गच्छन्स्वपञ्श्वसन् ||5.8|| प्रलपन्विसृजन्गृह्ण्न्नुन्मिषन्निमिषन्नपि | इन्द्रियाणीन्द्रियार्थेषु वर्तन्त इति धारयन् ||5.9||
Those steadfast in karm yog, always think, “I am not the doer,” even while engaged in seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, moving, sleeping, breathing, speaking, excreting, grasping, and opening or closing the eyes. With the light of divine knowledge, they see that it is only the material senses that are moving amongst their objects.
Ancient Indians divided the life into 4 phases namely Brahmcharya(learning phase), Grihasth(family life), Sanyas(detachment), Vanprasth(leaving for Jungle).Last phase emphasised on living and dying alone in the Jungle away from family and fame. Modern Indians have lost these messages primarily because they have stopped reading.
Any resources (e.g. YouTube videos, books) you can suggest? At a challenging point in life and this resonates.
I can understand your pain. I too recently lost a loved one who passed away much young. Now I seek refuse in this book. I feel ashamed that I didn't read it despite being a Hindu till I turned 40.
You can refer to the following link. True philosophy begins at shloka number 2.11. However, I will recommend reading from the beginning to understand the context.
https://www.holy-bhagavad-gita.org/
You can refer to the following link. True philosophy begins at shloka number 2.11. However, I will recommend reading from the beginning to understand the context.
https://www.holy-bhagavad-gita.org/
[deleted]
Winthrop Sargeant's translation of is very accessible: https://www.amazon.com/Bhagavad-Gita-Winthrop-Sargeant/dp/93...
There was a tour of Grant Imahara's workshop two years ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28633605
I was struck by how fantastic everything looked, this was what a dream workshop would look like.
However the man behind it was gone and it was inevitable that this amazing workshop would slowly wither away just like everything else.
This was the "best" case scenario - living on in a memory for maybe a few more decades
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28633605
I was struck by how fantastic everything looked, this was what a dream workshop would look like.
However the man behind it was gone and it was inevitable that this amazing workshop would slowly wither away just like everything else.
This was the "best" case scenario - living on in a memory for maybe a few more decades
I did not know Grant Imahara had passed away.
I feel a big hole in my childhood now. May he rest in peace.
I feel a big hole in my childhood now. May he rest in peace.
Grant is not the only Myth Buster to have died young.
Jessi Combs* also died recently setting a land speed record in a jet car.
* Edit: whoops, thanks for the correction
Jessi Combs* also died recently setting a land speed record in a jet car.
* Edit: whoops, thanks for the correction
It was Jessi Combs who died recently, not Kari Byron. There was good documentary on her.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessi_Combs
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt22687772/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessi_Combs
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt22687772/
Jessi Combs not Kari Byron
They will read a memoir that you write about them. For instance, if you have a child, write a memoir about his/her childhood years from your perspective.
Thank you for your anecdote. It's interesting and valuable to think about.
What's frustrating to me in my own position in life is this feeling that so much is out of my control. So in a sense it's like seeing others stealing my life from me or some such thing. Through ignorance, or bias, or malice, or whatever the case might be, it's not knowing how to do what you'd like, even when it seems relatively modest.
So this perspective, of "preparing to die has a lot to do with having had a good life," has started to take on this other perspective. Frankly it makes me a bit angry, to read advice coming from people of relatively good social status, who have the privilege to write a book that garners attention because of their own vocation, to do an interview about their ability to do carpentry in their spare time, to have the resources for it. But what about the individuals shut out of those opportunities, whatever it is they wanted?
I'm not really sure what my underlying point is but the article and your story seem like complements to me, and touch on frustrations I have with society in general, and what I see as lost opportunities for having a life one sees as good. I have mixed feelings about articles like this because they never go further than the personal despair of those experiencing the despair, and not into the deeper issues. If dying peacefully means having a satisfying life, why are we so focused on the pain at the end, and not what gets them there, and what we can do differently?
It seems to me that the pain that accompanies euthanasia, suicide, and natural death are all the same pain at some level. And in all these cases the discussion is focused on that endpoint, not how to prevent it over the long run.
What's frustrating to me in my own position in life is this feeling that so much is out of my control. So in a sense it's like seeing others stealing my life from me or some such thing. Through ignorance, or bias, or malice, or whatever the case might be, it's not knowing how to do what you'd like, even when it seems relatively modest.
So this perspective, of "preparing to die has a lot to do with having had a good life," has started to take on this other perspective. Frankly it makes me a bit angry, to read advice coming from people of relatively good social status, who have the privilege to write a book that garners attention because of their own vocation, to do an interview about their ability to do carpentry in their spare time, to have the resources for it. But what about the individuals shut out of those opportunities, whatever it is they wanted?
I'm not really sure what my underlying point is but the article and your story seem like complements to me, and touch on frustrations I have with society in general, and what I see as lost opportunities for having a life one sees as good. I have mixed feelings about articles like this because they never go further than the personal despair of those experiencing the despair, and not into the deeper issues. If dying peacefully means having a satisfying life, why are we so focused on the pain at the end, and not what gets them there, and what we can do differently?
It seems to me that the pain that accompanies euthanasia, suicide, and natural death are all the same pain at some level. And in all these cases the discussion is focused on that endpoint, not how to prevent it over the long run.
> It seems to me that the pain that accompanies euthanasia, suicide, and natural death are all the same pain at some level. And in all these cases the discussion is focused on that endpoint, not how to prevent it over the long run.
It’s the pain of loss. You can’t prevent loss.
It’s the pain of loss. You can’t prevent loss.
I have a former colleague who published his memoirs after his retirement, which I eagerly read, and I’m glad I did.
Actually made me think random business memoirs could be a rich vein of untapped entertainment/edification.
Actually made me think random business memoirs could be a rich vein of untapped entertainment/edification.
Memoirs and autobiographies are often good, even when they come from everyday people. In general they are short, quick reads that are highly personal and offers their best stories, jokes, and lessons.
It's hard to explain but this feels like an AI generated comment. Either way I agree with the sentiment, more people should give this kind of non-fiction a try.
In my family we all have read grandpa's memoirs and has been a huge motivation. How much time would one spent to read them? For most of the people less than a weeks social media consumption time. I would write memoirs for myself but life has become easy and safe and busy but not meaningful for anyone in the past and hopefully in the future.
My grandfather wrote an autobiography (for family) and I found it interesting to read.
You have to really work at it to truly die alone. Someone somewhere is going to remember you fondly unless you were a complete asshole. This is often the fate of lifetime narcissists who no longer have the energy or presence of mind to maintain the façade. Even the most vicious of bigots have well-wishers at their funerals. You have to mess up hard to be less liked than a Fred Phelps type.
I think living a long time can go a long way in increasing levels of 'alone' when you die. Age of death is probably the single most predictive variable for how many people attend a funeral.
Let's discuss someone that lives a long time above the median lifespan. Maybe 95. Almost all of their former classmates, colleagues, siblings, cousins, partners, and peers are either dead or too sick to travel to the hospital/funeral. They've likely had mobility, energy, or cognitive problems that reduced their involvement in the community over the last 15 years. Many people 20 or 30 years younger that they might have mentored, raised, or inspired will have passed. To someone 40 years younger or more they would have always been 'old' in their mind, and generational gaps would conspire to make them further apart socially.
Someone that dies younger than median will often have more hospital visitors and more funeral attendees by the simple fact that more of the people they knew in life are alive and healthy enough to travel.
Let's discuss someone that lives a long time above the median lifespan. Maybe 95. Almost all of their former classmates, colleagues, siblings, cousins, partners, and peers are either dead or too sick to travel to the hospital/funeral. They've likely had mobility, energy, or cognitive problems that reduced their involvement in the community over the last 15 years. Many people 20 or 30 years younger that they might have mentored, raised, or inspired will have passed. To someone 40 years younger or more they would have always been 'old' in their mind, and generational gaps would conspire to make them further apart socially.
Someone that dies younger than median will often have more hospital visitors and more funeral attendees by the simple fact that more of the people they knew in life are alive and healthy enough to travel.
The most attended funeral I ever went to was for a man who lived to almost 95.
He lived in the same town his whole adult life. Everyone his generation was dead but he had made so many friends, business relationships neighbors and acquaintances over the years it didn't matter. Also helps that he had 9 kids which equates to a lot of grand children and great grand children.
He lived in the same town his whole adult life. Everyone his generation was dead but he had made so many friends, business relationships neighbors and acquaintances over the years it didn't matter. Also helps that he had 9 kids which equates to a lot of grand children and great grand children.
My dad is 95 and this is his experience. We just did a trip to California to visit his college friend; one of only two people from his youth still alive.
I make a point of thinking about those people I have known who have died from time to time and offering a prayer for them. The top of the list is a friend who died by suicide in college who it makes me sad to think that he’s mostly forgotten. Not because he was necessarily unique or special in some extraordinary way, but simply because he had once been alive.
Not having kids also produces this dynamic. A childless person is less likely to have strong connections amongst the still-vigorous once they're very old.
Plenty of people don't die of old age or disease in hospitals.
No one probably wants to hear this but my partner's grandmother was in hospice. Her grandmother had so much anxiety about dying (she was in her late 90s) that the hospice just kept her doped up with morphine 24/7 (this is a lot more common than you'd imagine). When she was sober enough to realize what was happening she'd just scream.
Anyway, that really did a number on me for the next few months. Seeing someone so distraught having reached the end of their life, clearly unhappy with everything that had led up to that point, unable to really accept that this was the end. Was profoundly depressing but also extremely motivating to not waste my time on things I'm not happy with.
Anyway, that really did a number on me for the next few months. Seeing someone so distraught having reached the end of their life, clearly unhappy with everything that had led up to that point, unable to really accept that this was the end. Was profoundly depressing but also extremely motivating to not waste my time on things I'm not happy with.
“At the end of our life our questions are simple: Did I live fully? Did I love well?”
— Jack Kornfield
— Jack Kornfield
This is reductive in that it implies if the answers are yes you won’t be the one sitting in bed screaming or drugged up.
I’ve seen this situation enough (whole family works in hospice) to know it’s not the case.
Do the best you can, but at the end of the day you either go super fast or it’s super scary and often painful. Drugs help.
I’ve seen this situation enough (whole family works in hospice) to know it’s not the case.
Do the best you can, but at the end of the day you either go super fast or it’s super scary and often painful. Drugs help.
> This is reductive
> at the end of the day you either go super fast or it’s super scary
Ironically, I find this statement reductive and unnuanced, not the Jack Kornfield quote.
You have no idea how the people you observed screaming in fear lived and loved in their lives.
> at the end of the day you either go super fast or it’s super scary
Ironically, I find this statement reductive and unnuanced, not the Jack Kornfield quote.
You have no idea how the people you observed screaming in fear lived and loved in their lives.
In that moment, I also don’t really care how they did. It has absolutely nothing to do with how they end up passing, the pain they’re feeling or the level of stress they’re under. To suggest otherwise is crazy and disrespectful.
I have been inculcated to ask those questions, yet I don’t even know the answer nor how to answer, let alone how to do it.
Don't worry about it. Who cares about that final 1% of your life. Why is all important that we model all our life around the thoughts in in that final 1%. Your brain prably isn't working that well anyways to have some sort of profound transcendal thoughts. Most ppl just thinking about mostly nothing in particular.
For me, the answer to those questions lies in my relationships. Even the ones that go sour: did you love well? Did you have a lot of quality time with them?
Realize that every relationship (family, friends, lovers, spouses) ends in separation. Every one, whether through estrangement or death. And that is natural and normal. Not depressing. Just is.
Realize that every relationship (family, friends, lovers, spouses) ends in separation. Every one, whether through estrangement or death. And that is natural and normal. Not depressing. Just is.
Why do you think anyone spends their time doped up on opiates? It's not like any of us isn't going to die relatively soon and we all know it.
> , clearly unhappy with everything that had led up to that point
Did she express as much when she the bouts of anxiety. Curious to hear what specifically about her life that gave her so much anxiety about it ending.
Did she express as much when she the bouts of anxiety. Curious to hear what specifically about her life that gave her so much anxiety about it ending.
Too late now, but this sure does sound like what cryonics is for.
This article seems like something I should read, but I'm not sure if I want to. As someone with parents and inlaws who are in their early to mid 70s and quite worried about losing them, I'm not sure if I'm ready to read this.
Does anyone have any tips on how to deal with the pre-loss anxiety?
Does anyone have any tips on how to deal with the pre-loss anxiety?
I had none of that anxiety when my mom had a stroke last year. She survived but lost a lot of her capacity to speak and will to live. It’s been devastating but I’ve had a chance to spend time with her and tell her things I never thought I needed to say.
If I had to give some advice, I would say the most important thing to do now is to make sure that they are prepared for the administrative side of major health events and death. Power of attorney, wills, passwords, keys, etc. Having to push through a bunch of paperwork while grieving was a really tough experience.
I would also recommend starting to think about it happening now so you can make good choices about how you spend your time. If you’re actively avoiding the subject in your head then it will be a much bigger hit when it inevitably happens.
Grief and loss is universal but also very personal. It’s very hard to go through but you grow a lot, personally, if you let it happen. I wrote about my experience with my mom’s stroke below. If it’s not too heavy, there might be something helpful in there for you.
https://www.joshcanhelp.com/stroke/
If I had to give some advice, I would say the most important thing to do now is to make sure that they are prepared for the administrative side of major health events and death. Power of attorney, wills, passwords, keys, etc. Having to push through a bunch of paperwork while grieving was a really tough experience.
I would also recommend starting to think about it happening now so you can make good choices about how you spend your time. If you’re actively avoiding the subject in your head then it will be a much bigger hit when it inevitably happens.
Grief and loss is universal but also very personal. It’s very hard to go through but you grow a lot, personally, if you let it happen. I wrote about my experience with my mom’s stroke below. If it’s not too heavy, there might be something helpful in there for you.
https://www.joshcanhelp.com/stroke/
I don't necessarily have anything for pre-loss anxiety, but I did suddenly lose my dad. As in talked to him the day before and he was feeling a little sick and the next day I learned that he had died alone in his home. Without going into some of the sadder details, I can tell you what helped the most.
I felt complete in our relationship in the moment. I still have times when I wish I could share something with him. But, I felt like I had really vocalized the love I had for him. I love you doesn't really count in my mind, but being specific about how they make you feel loved and how you love them. And secondly, I had accepted/forgiven him for anything that wasn't in that love category.
That feeling of being complete was really nice to have after his sudden passing. It didn't take away the sadness and missing him, but I didn't feel the regret that I've heard others do.
So, my suggestion would be to express the specific love you feel for your parents and in laws to them and forgive or accept them in the other things. I hope this helps somehow or at least makes some nice moments in your family.
I felt complete in our relationship in the moment. I still have times when I wish I could share something with him. But, I felt like I had really vocalized the love I had for him. I love you doesn't really count in my mind, but being specific about how they make you feel loved and how you love them. And secondly, I had accepted/forgiven him for anything that wasn't in that love category.
That feeling of being complete was really nice to have after his sudden passing. It didn't take away the sadness and missing him, but I didn't feel the regret that I've heard others do.
So, my suggestion would be to express the specific love you feel for your parents and in laws to them and forgive or accept them in the other things. I hope this helps somehow or at least makes some nice moments in your family.
I had basically this same thing happen a few years back. Dad mentioned he felt ill in an online chat and then that was it.
He lived in a podunk and traveled little throughout his life - I lived in a larger metro area with some world-class outdoors, and just by luck it turned out he loved coming out to visit.
So we had him out to visit over and over and over, and that traveling around with him is one of the things I’m most thankful to have done.
He lived in a podunk and traveled little throughout his life - I lived in a larger metro area with some world-class outdoors, and just by luck it turned out he loved coming out to visit.
So we had him out to visit over and over and over, and that traveling around with him is one of the things I’m most thankful to have done.
I wrote a letter to each of my parents outlining why I loved them and how appreciative I am for what they did for me.
It was as much for myself than for them.
It was as much for myself than for them.
It's a bit rough, maybe, but this old Buddhist story helped me:
The family had finished the new house and went to the monk to get a scroll to sanctify the hearth. The monk worked for some time, and then called the family to see the scroll he had written. It said:
The family had finished the new house and went to the monk to get a scroll to sanctify the hearth. The monk worked for some time, and then called the family to see the scroll he had written. It said:
Grandfather dies
Father dies
Son dies
Grandson dies
Short (25m) wordless art film, https://nbhap.com/sounds/the-national-mike-mills-i-am-easy-t...
> We are born, we live and then we all die. And in-between a lot of spectacular things can happen. Or maybe not. Sounds harsh when you put it like this, right? But there’s an undeniable and for many people uncomfortable truth in this and I Am Easy To Find is a film that transports that feeling pretty well.
> We are born, we live and then we all die. And in-between a lot of spectacular things can happen. Or maybe not. Sounds harsh when you put it like this, right? But there’s an undeniable and for many people uncomfortable truth in this and I Am Easy To Find is a film that transports that feeling pretty well.
“There was a man and he had eight sons. Apart from that, he was nothing more than a comma on the page of History. It's sad, but that's all you can say about some people.”[1]
[1]https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/62360-sourcery
[1]https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/62360-sourcery
From Darwin's perspective, though, that's basically the exact opposite of "sad."
You can tell by that quote that it's an early book in the series. The later books would not say that of anybody.
That was a really beautiful film.
well that was sad lol, need a sadhguru palette cleanser https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5x_XbIkVmg
[deleted]
Beautiful video.
Read up on stoicism, e.g. A Guide to the Good Life by William Irvine, https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5617966-a-guide-to-the-g...
The key idea, iirc, is to regularly meditate on/ imagine the loss of everyone and everything you hold dear. On one hand, you’ll appreciate them more afterwards, on the other, it is good practice to prepare for actual losses.
The key idea, iirc, is to regularly meditate on/ imagine the loss of everyone and everything you hold dear. On one hand, you’ll appreciate them more afterwards, on the other, it is good practice to prepare for actual losses.
I recently learned I have - at best - 2 years to live. Prognosis is fatal in 100% of cases, no known cure and only weak compensatory treatments of any kind.
I'm in my 30s. Not religious either so I don't have the comfort of expecting an afterlife.
I've been through a lot of hard things but I was always taught how to be resourceful and make it through hard times to the other side. No one teaches you how to die. There is no other side to make it to.
I'm in my 30s. Not religious either so I don't have the comfort of expecting an afterlife.
I've been through a lot of hard things but I was always taught how to be resourceful and make it through hard times to the other side. No one teaches you how to die. There is no other side to make it to.
[deleted]
I have no idea if this suggestion is helpful, but to add to your potential resources - there is a hospice nurse on TikTok who talks about dying as a part of the process of life
It helped me shift my thinking from death as an end to death as an experience
It helped me shift my thinking from death as an end to death as an experience
What’s the condition?
I was raised in a religion and I'm considering returning to it. It gave me peace, and although I know I may be deluding myself, I like the effects. I think I can hold both views in myself, this religion serves me, but it may be wrong and I understand it doesn't serve everyone and it's okay if others choose other religions or no religion. I will also be much more hesitant to give money to my religion.
So far it has helped with death anxiety. No atheists in foxholes, none of us are getting out of this alive, etc.
So far it has helped with death anxiety. No atheists in foxholes, none of us are getting out of this alive, etc.
I see the number of priests abusing children, and take that as an example that, neither religion made them a better person, neither they seem afraid of the after life they preach about...
Your comment started a tangential discussion, but it's not really relevant to what I said. The fact that religion personally helps me with my death anxiety isn't changed by the flaws of religion. I know there are flaws, I know it's probably all made up, I keep a healthy distance, but again, none of this changes the fact that it helps my anxiety. Humans have been making up beliefs to help with death for a long time, and I'm consciously choosing to do like them.
I hope that will help you, in the common journey we are all on, and from which we are not likely to escape.
The problem is most religions, under the presentation of being about the after, are very much all about imposing, some kind of sometimes very light, sometimes very strong, anxious tyranny on the shared societal present.
The problem is most religions, under the presentation of being about the after, are very much all about imposing, some kind of sometimes very light, sometimes very strong, anxious tyranny on the shared societal present.
And nevertheless the percentage of priests abusing children is lower than the percentage of school teachers doing the same. Make sure to bring that up every time you talk about the public school system.
After shielding them from law enforcement, has the public school system moved teachers accused of child abuse into different schools in a new community allowing them the opportunity to abuse again?
Yes [0][1].
[0] https://www.fox4news.com/news/teacher-arrested-sexual-abuse-...
[1] https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/summit-middle-school-p...
[0] https://www.fox4news.com/news/teacher-arrested-sexual-abuse-...
[1] https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/summit-middle-school-p...
Were the educators shielded from law enforcement:
Article 1 > No, they were arrested by law enforcement.
Article 2 > after first accusation, yes - school administration argued that the initial accusation was not credible. After additional accusation > No, the educator and their organizational leadership were arrested by law enforcement.
Did the public school system moved teachers accused of child abuse into different schools in a new community allowing them the opportunity to abuse again?
Article 1 & 2: No.
In any case - I’m glad we agree that adults in a position of trust and power over children, who then abuse those children, should all be arrested, tried, and - if guilty - put in jail in their crimes. There is no amount of whataboutism that makes either group sympathetic.
Article 1 > No, they were arrested by law enforcement.
Article 2 > after first accusation, yes - school administration argued that the initial accusation was not credible. After additional accusation > No, the educator and their organizational leadership were arrested by law enforcement.
Did the public school system moved teachers accused of child abuse into different schools in a new community allowing them the opportunity to abuse again?
Article 1 & 2: No.
In any case - I’m glad we agree that adults in a position of trust and power over children, who then abuse those children, should all be arrested, tried, and - if guilty - put in jail in their crimes. There is no amount of whataboutism that makes either group sympathetic.
[deleted]
> And nevertheless the percentage of priests abusing children is lower than the percentage of school children doing the same.
Are you sure this is what you mean?
Are you sure this is what you mean?
Probably referring to teachers.
Probably still technically correct with the typo.
Many have higher expectations of adults’ self-control than of schoolchildren.
For most professions, that seems to be upheld.
For most professions, that seems to be upheld.
The difference is that the entire larger organization is corrupt and covering it up.
Do the work to spend the time with them before you no longer have the option.
Enjoy them.
Enjoy them.
I did a lot of listening to the griefcast (podcast with comedians talking about people they lost) recently which I think helped me. No idea if that's good advice and the people on it skew heavily uk centric so you might not know any of them. Good luck!
One of my very good friends is old enough to be my grandfather.
I'm pretty comfortable with the idea of death, so I don't get anxious per-se. But it's still a very melancholy thing to think about.
I just do as much as I can with him and try not to get distracted by it.
I'm pretty comfortable with the idea of death, so I don't get anxious per-se. But it's still a very melancholy thing to think about.
I just do as much as I can with him and try not to get distracted by it.
Deeply accepting the Mr. Peanutbutter philosophy of life brought me a deep sense of internal calm about issues like this.
https://youtu.be/AfqTOhi7AnQ
https://youtu.be/AfqTOhi7AnQ
Oddly the more I do mindfulness, same.
IMO the best thing you can do is accept you will lose them, and it may be sudden and unexpected, or it may be slow and awful. I’m sorry, it’s just true, and denial will just make it worse.
Given acceptance of that reality, do the stuff you might wish you had done. Visit more, talk more, listen more. If they’re comfortable with mortality (older people are often moreso than younger), don’t avoid the topic. If they’re not, well, maybe there are small things you can do to help both you and them to accept.
It’s such a difficult thing, but it’s pretty much mandatory. Acceptance can reduce anxiety.
Given acceptance of that reality, do the stuff you might wish you had done. Visit more, talk more, listen more. If they’re comfortable with mortality (older people are often moreso than younger), don’t avoid the topic. If they’re not, well, maybe there are small things you can do to help both you and them to accept.
It’s such a difficult thing, but it’s pretty much mandatory. Acceptance can reduce anxiety.
The most basic advice is to try to focus on the time you have with them now - really spend some quality time and don't put it off.
If you're anxious about the future, it's because you're spending you're time in this mentally fast forwarded space where you're dealing with the imagined realities of it.
Your imagined ideas of future challenges, in my experience, are usually much worse than the ones I actually deal with. IMO, anxiety has more drawbacks than advantages.
Let tomorrow's problems be tomorrow's problems. Enjoy your parents now.
If you're anxious about the future, it's because you're spending you're time in this mentally fast forwarded space where you're dealing with the imagined realities of it.
Your imagined ideas of future challenges, in my experience, are usually much worse than the ones I actually deal with. IMO, anxiety has more drawbacks than advantages.
Let tomorrow's problems be tomorrow's problems. Enjoy your parents now.
>Does anyone have any tips on how to deal with the pre-loss anxiety?
Spend as much time with them as you can, especially closer to the end. Make sure you go out to dinner with them if they are still able. Help when they need it. Tell them you love them. When it's over, it will leave a hole in you for the rest of your life, so spend the time while you can so you don't regret not doing that.
My dad died when I was recently out of college. He got colon cancer and died 3 months later. Watching him decline was hard. It still hurts 23 years later. I've had uncles and aunts and grandparents I was close with die in the past few years. My mom is declining fast, so I spend at least one day a week with her, and do all her chores that need doing. She'll probably need to move in with me soon, which I'm fine with, because there's only a few years at best left.
The one good thing about it, if I had to declare one, is nothing else in your life will ever be as bad as that. It really puts things into perspective. All your problems now will seem insignificant. I was lucky enough to have a really good childhood and really loving and supportive parents.
Spend as much time with them as you can, especially closer to the end. Make sure you go out to dinner with them if they are still able. Help when they need it. Tell them you love them. When it's over, it will leave a hole in you for the rest of your life, so spend the time while you can so you don't regret not doing that.
My dad died when I was recently out of college. He got colon cancer and died 3 months later. Watching him decline was hard. It still hurts 23 years later. I've had uncles and aunts and grandparents I was close with die in the past few years. My mom is declining fast, so I spend at least one day a week with her, and do all her chores that need doing. She'll probably need to move in with me soon, which I'm fine with, because there's only a few years at best left.
The one good thing about it, if I had to declare one, is nothing else in your life will ever be as bad as that. It really puts things into perspective. All your problems now will seem insignificant. I was lucky enough to have a really good childhood and really loving and supportive parents.
Lately I've found a lot of practical comfort in the ideas of Stoicism (tempus fugit, memento mori, etc)
Somewhat orthogonal (and thus compatible with) any other faith/religion you may have.
I've found The Daily Stoic to be a good accessible on-ramp for these ideas: https://dailystoic.com/stoic-response-grief/ https://dailystoic.com/how-to-cure-anxiety/
Somewhat orthogonal (and thus compatible with) any other faith/religion you may have.
I've found The Daily Stoic to be a good accessible on-ramp for these ideas: https://dailystoic.com/stoic-response-grief/ https://dailystoic.com/how-to-cure-anxiety/
Share meaningful times and emotions with the people that are close to you. I don’t think this is something that should be done because people will depart, more because it improves connection with people and helps you become a much more available person.
> Does anyone have any tips on how to deal with the pre-loss anxiety?
The dead live on, only not in physical form. That is the process of grief. It is the love for that person simply being unexpressed, the love you didn't express when they were alive.
The dead live on, only not in physical form. That is the process of grief. It is the love for that person simply being unexpressed, the love you didn't express when they were alive.
You will cope with it better than you currently think you will. It could be still a long way off though, so make the most of the time that remains.
two thoughts i try to hold on to, when my pre-loss anxiety takes over:
1) it's worse worse when parents have to bury their children (than vice versa). 2) there is sadness to having to say goodbye, but sadness is a beautiful thing. it is a different way to celebrate the love you had.
1) it's worse worse when parents have to bury their children (than vice versa). 2) there is sadness to having to say goodbye, but sadness is a beautiful thing. it is a different way to celebrate the love you had.
My mom passed last may. She'd been having some health problems for the preceding few months and I'd gotten in the habit of calling her daily just to check in briefly. I'm grateful I did; my biggest feeling for months after she died was that I regretted not being able to talk to her any more. I do still wish I'd gotten her to talk more about her stories, but having made a conscious effort to keep even more in touch helped me a lot - particularly coming after not seeing her in person for two years due to the pandemic.
Tl;dr: consciously manage your relationship. implement a plan to be in contact regularly at a frequency that works for you and them, and stick to it. It will help reduce the "if only I had" kind of regrets. Grief still hurts, but that's normal and ok.
Tl;dr: consciously manage your relationship. implement a plan to be in contact regularly at a frequency that works for you and them, and stick to it. It will help reduce the "if only I had" kind of regrets. Grief still hurts, but that's normal and ok.
be thankful for what you've already had, remember it, cherish it?
The initial Covid breakout was a wake up call to me even though it didn’t fatally affect anyone I knew personally. It did change my perspective and wanted me to have a life without regrets. I am 49 and my wife is 47. My youngest (step)son graduated in 2020.
I also got a permanently remote job the same month at BigTech (I am assigned to a “virtual office”)
Last year, my wife and I sold both of our cars (we just bought hers the prior year), rented our house out (that we had built in 2016) to our son and two of his friends we have known for years, got rid of all of our belongings that wouldn’t fit in three suitcases and bought a fully furnished vacation home in a resort community in Florida that was a third the size of our house.
We only stay there five months out of the year from October-February. We city hop the rest of the year around the US staying in mid range hotels and take Uber everywhere.
I explicitly told my manager and skip manager I have no desire for a promotion and I at 49 years old am perfectly content at being an L5 (mid level) making a little less than a college grad Software Engineer three years out of school - I pivoted to (billable hands on keyboard) cloud consulting/app dev from enterprise dev. I make it a point to work exactly 40 hours a week.
I have never been so happy and whenever death comes. I can say I spent years (months?) living my dream.
I also got a permanently remote job the same month at BigTech (I am assigned to a “virtual office”)
Last year, my wife and I sold both of our cars (we just bought hers the prior year), rented our house out (that we had built in 2016) to our son and two of his friends we have known for years, got rid of all of our belongings that wouldn’t fit in three suitcases and bought a fully furnished vacation home in a resort community in Florida that was a third the size of our house.
We only stay there five months out of the year from October-February. We city hop the rest of the year around the US staying in mid range hotels and take Uber everywhere.
I explicitly told my manager and skip manager I have no desire for a promotion and I at 49 years old am perfectly content at being an L5 (mid level) making a little less than a college grad Software Engineer three years out of school - I pivoted to (billable hands on keyboard) cloud consulting/app dev from enterprise dev. I make it a point to work exactly 40 hours a week.
I have never been so happy and whenever death comes. I can say I spent years (months?) living my dream.
My favorite thing around the subject of death is The Grief Walker. Highly recommend anyone watch this. Don't forget to get tissues before you start.
https://www.nfb.ca/film/griefwalker/
https://www.nfb.ca/film/griefwalker/
Would have checked it out. But that last sentence just sounded like the worst clickbait headline.
“More diapers are sold for the elderly than for children.”
That’s an amazing annecdote
Today is my grandparents 95th birthday. They spent it crying that their child shoved them in a home (it wasn’t, the judge forced it), believing they lived with their parents until a few days ago
At the same time a 41 year old friend told us her cancer is “surprisingly aggressive“ and she might make September
Life is shit.
That’s an amazing annecdote
Today is my grandparents 95th birthday. They spent it crying that their child shoved them in a home (it wasn’t, the judge forced it), believing they lived with their parents until a few days ago
At the same time a 41 year old friend told us her cancer is “surprisingly aggressive“ and she might make September
Life is shit.
More than a year after my father died, my 6 year old son was inconsolably crying one night as my wife put him to bed. He hadn’t said anything about my father’s death until this night when he realized that it meant some day I would die. He was so sad at the thought and assumed I must be so sad about my father dying, that he was sad for me. I laid in bed with him talking about death and telling him how my father died—of COVID-19. It made my son think of vaccines. We spoke for an hour about how confronting death a little bit at a time throughout life—in stories or our own thoughts—is like a vaccine that helps us with the pain of losing our loved ones and eventually our own death. And for me, laying in bed crying with my six year old son about the death of his grandfather has been one of the best moments of my own life.
Wow. What a profound memory. Thank you for sharing.
Seneca - "Make a goal to have already lived enough"
I emphasise, and so some degree agree with the takes of the doctor.
Being sick with some threating disease and then live with it for years or till death is painfull. We should be given a chance to cut it off.
I emphasise, and so some degree agree with the takes of the doctor.
Being sick with some threating disease and then live with it for years or till death is painfull. We should be given a chance to cut it off.
> am 73 years old and I’ve had a difficult life, but a long and good one.
I just got back from visiting my grandmother who is a few weeks away from turning 100. She still lives alone, cooks her own food, walks without assistance, has a tremendous memory and still has the mental acuity of any intelligent healthy young person. Her son, my father is 75 and is a physician and still works 60 hour weeks (which he considers to be retirement hours). I started laughing when I read the doctor considering 73 to be a long life. That age feels like barely out of middle age to me.
I just got back from visiting my grandmother who is a few weeks away from turning 100. She still lives alone, cooks her own food, walks without assistance, has a tremendous memory and still has the mental acuity of any intelligent healthy young person. Her son, my father is 75 and is a physician and still works 60 hour weeks (which he considers to be retirement hours). I started laughing when I read the doctor considering 73 to be a long life. That age feels like barely out of middle age to me.
Dude, we know. Everything has a long tail. If everyone in the tail for everything came and posted about stuff we'd be sitting here primarily reading comments that go:
- $500k? I make $5 million and that doesn't even seem enough
- 2 children? I have 5 children and that barely feels like a family
- 3 vim plugins? I have 1E80 and even that is barely enough to write Hello World in Java
- $500k? I make $5 million and that doesn't even seem enough
- 2 children? I have 5 children and that barely feels like a family
- 3 vim plugins? I have 1E80 and even that is barely enough to write Hello World in Java
Do you have more details on Java with vim?
There's a person working on vi who has tracked three decades of patches from OpenBSD starting from Keith Bostic.
There's someone working on an obscure roleplaying game that's pre-Diablo.
There's the ones who sail on a boat and craft bespoke C-reations on their own virtual machine.
The X11 maintainers, always and ever.
So many more. And not for some reward at the end of a mortal journey, but in some sense for its own sake.
Even with LLMs and the flex of planet-scale computation, in the midst of wild, speculative financial schemes, there is a comfort in a familiar domain, patches therein, and being a kind of owner of this, essentially intangible, work of code.
There's a person working on vi who has tracked three decades of patches from OpenBSD starting from Keith Bostic.
There's someone working on an obscure roleplaying game that's pre-Diablo.
There's the ones who sail on a boat and craft bespoke C-reations on their own virtual machine.
The X11 maintainers, always and ever.
So many more. And not for some reward at the end of a mortal journey, but in some sense for its own sake.
Even with LLMs and the flex of planet-scale computation, in the midst of wild, speculative financial schemes, there is a comfort in a familiar domain, patches therein, and being a kind of owner of this, essentially intangible, work of code.
Long tail makes for good stories though.
[deleted]
I have found some solace in gardening that helps me accept mortality.
Life and death is around you every day in a garden.
When you start seeds, some turn to seedlings, some don't. Some seedlings die, some live. If you are as bad of a gardener as I am, you plant triple the seeds so hopefully some germinate and grow, the weak ones I just pluck out and compost. Some of those seedlings thrive and become big healthy plants, some never really amount to much and they die early. Blight killed a lot of tomato plants a few years ago. The soil is teeming with life that is thriving because of decaying (dead) plant matter. I few years ago I bought 500 worms for the garden. They eat dying plant matter and turn it into amazing compost. Some worms died before I could get them in the ground, some helped my cucumbers grow to 15' tall. Living, but, destructive pests do not live long in my garden, but helpful insects are welcome. I plant a pollinator garden just for them. Then, at the end of the season everything dies. In the spring it all stars again. You get to see the entire circle of life play out every day and then again every season. It has a training effect on me. Some people go to church for answers, I water tomato plants.
It has given some comfort to know I'm part of a bigger organism and my death will perpetuate life of another kind, if I choose to let my body feed life.
Also, if you are young and reading this, when you hit 50, and/or when you have kids, that's when mortality really hits you. But that's when you are (usually) most able to positively impact others. The point of life is to have kids and perpetuate our species. The meaning of life is to help others. I mean locally, help other people. People near you. Your mother or your neighbor or the mailman. Maybe you have little impact on the entire world but you can make a huge impact on a person very near you. Do that enough and when you are dying one day you will think of their faces and the faces of the kids you helped and accept the unknown and that you did the best you could.
Life and death is around you every day in a garden.
When you start seeds, some turn to seedlings, some don't. Some seedlings die, some live. If you are as bad of a gardener as I am, you plant triple the seeds so hopefully some germinate and grow, the weak ones I just pluck out and compost. Some of those seedlings thrive and become big healthy plants, some never really amount to much and they die early. Blight killed a lot of tomato plants a few years ago. The soil is teeming with life that is thriving because of decaying (dead) plant matter. I few years ago I bought 500 worms for the garden. They eat dying plant matter and turn it into amazing compost. Some worms died before I could get them in the ground, some helped my cucumbers grow to 15' tall. Living, but, destructive pests do not live long in my garden, but helpful insects are welcome. I plant a pollinator garden just for them. Then, at the end of the season everything dies. In the spring it all stars again. You get to see the entire circle of life play out every day and then again every season. It has a training effect on me. Some people go to church for answers, I water tomato plants.
It has given some comfort to know I'm part of a bigger organism and my death will perpetuate life of another kind, if I choose to let my body feed life.
Also, if you are young and reading this, when you hit 50, and/or when you have kids, that's when mortality really hits you. But that's when you are (usually) most able to positively impact others. The point of life is to have kids and perpetuate our species. The meaning of life is to help others. I mean locally, help other people. People near you. Your mother or your neighbor or the mailman. Maybe you have little impact on the entire world but you can make a huge impact on a person very near you. Do that enough and when you are dying one day you will think of their faces and the faces of the kids you helped and accept the unknown and that you did the best you could.
For anyone who wants to see the same message in a less morbid light: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6XhrbcXEd0
“30 years ago I would have died of cancer; now I will die with cancer, but not of cancer.”
And 30-100 years from now, the same cancer will be cured.
It’s simply a matter of the human race deciding when to cure cancers.
And 30-100 years from now, the same cancer will be cured.
It’s simply a matter of the human race deciding when to cure cancers.
In this context, your "simply" is probably the greatest understatement I've read on HN in 2023 so far. There's nothing simple about coordinating people like this, starting from facilitating communication across individual people to bootstrap the process and ending at grabbing enough attention of people on top to gain the necessary world-scale attention towards the problem.
“It’s simply a matter of the human race deciding…”
You misread what I said. I never said it was a simple problem, I said it was simply a matter of deciding to solve the problem.
The Apollo program, for comparison, took 400,000 people a decade to get to the moon, and 2.5% of GDP.
https://www.planetary.org/space-policy/cost-of-apollo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_program
If we agree the problem will be solved, then it’s just a matter of deciding to do it sooner than much later.
And along the way, fewer people die. So, if we try to do it in 10 years, but it takes 20, we still win.
You misread what I said. I never said it was a simple problem, I said it was simply a matter of deciding to solve the problem.
The Apollo program, for comparison, took 400,000 people a decade to get to the moon, and 2.5% of GDP.
https://www.planetary.org/space-policy/cost-of-apollo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_program
If we agree the problem will be solved, then it’s just a matter of deciding to do it sooner than much later.
And along the way, fewer people die. So, if we try to do it in 10 years, but it takes 20, we still win.
No, you misread what I said. "Simply a matter of deciding to solve the problem" is not "simple" by any means. There's no political incentive to solve cancer since isn't a problem that brings political advantage when solved, like there's no political "race to the moon" with a rival country that happened with Apollo. Race to the moon decided because USA and USSR went into a game of who gets there first; cancer has no such ongoing game and it's a much less spectacular aspect with results that are invisible when compared to videos taken on the surface of the moon.
Speaking of results, solving cancer would also mean that people get to live even longer than they do now, which, in an already locally overpopulated and locally aging society, would generate many more issues that death by cancer "conveniently" "solves" at the moment.
Speaking of results, solving cancer would also mean that people get to live even longer than they do now, which, in an already locally overpopulated and locally aging society, would generate many more issues that death by cancer "conveniently" "solves" at the moment.
You're lasering in on the word "simple".
Human civilization is full of optimization gradients. We choose to spend our time and money on certain pathways.
OP was musing that amid all the things we spend money and effort on, cancer seems to get too little. If only we could choose to "simply" devote more of our collective energies to it. It's a mere musing, nothing more. We're kind of powerless to these forces of how people choose to spend their lives.
Solving cancer itself is by no means "simple". But neither were a lot of the things we've accomplished. We'll get there in time, but it's easy for the brain to imagine a faster path if we had more institutional funding and minds on the task. That's what's simple.
You're correct that we won't get people on board with this. We don't consider the recruitment of support or the opportunity cost losses or the myriad of other changes necessary. But this is all just an intellectual exercise in wishful thinking anyway.
Human civilization is full of optimization gradients. We choose to spend our time and money on certain pathways.
OP was musing that amid all the things we spend money and effort on, cancer seems to get too little. If only we could choose to "simply" devote more of our collective energies to it. It's a mere musing, nothing more. We're kind of powerless to these forces of how people choose to spend their lives.
Solving cancer itself is by no means "simple". But neither were a lot of the things we've accomplished. We'll get there in time, but it's easy for the brain to imagine a faster path if we had more institutional funding and minds on the task. That's what's simple.
You're correct that we won't get people on board with this. We don't consider the recruitment of support or the opportunity cost losses or the myriad of other changes necessary. But this is all just an intellectual exercise in wishful thinking anyway.
Seeing as you're getting tripped up on the word "simple", the sentiment can be rephrased without using that word:
Where there is a will, there is a way.
If people can be convinced to do something, they will. History proves this as an absolute fact.
Where there is a will, there is a way.
If people can be convinced to do something, they will. History proves this as an absolute fact.
hahah it's the infamous HN Dropbox comment but on steroids
My startup idea is "Uber for Cancer!"
Compared to current expenditure and human resources spent on treating and understanding cancer, what would constitute a real "decision to cure cancer" for you? Twice as much, ten times as much?
Do billionaires and powerful politicians (or their loved ones) deliberately die of cancer because they collectively decided not to find a cure for cancer?
Are you willing to entertain the idea that we don't yet fully understand cancer or even our own biology, and that said understanding may not be a "simple" function of money and brains, but requires a bit of luck as well?
Most historical breakthroughs in science weren't an outcome of bruteforcing the problem with shitloads of money and manpower. People tend to fixate on the Manhattan Project too much; it is not a great analogy, because by 1940, the understanding of the fundamentals was basically complete.
We don't understand cancer nearly as well as we understood nuclear fission at that time. Hell, we don't understand aging very well yet, and cancer is a typical disease of old age.
Do billionaires and powerful politicians (or their loved ones) deliberately die of cancer because they collectively decided not to find a cure for cancer?
Are you willing to entertain the idea that we don't yet fully understand cancer or even our own biology, and that said understanding may not be a "simple" function of money and brains, but requires a bit of luck as well?
Most historical breakthroughs in science weren't an outcome of bruteforcing the problem with shitloads of money and manpower. People tend to fixate on the Manhattan Project too much; it is not a great analogy, because by 1940, the understanding of the fundamentals was basically complete.
We don't understand cancer nearly as well as we understood nuclear fission at that time. Hell, we don't understand aging very well yet, and cancer is a typical disease of old age.
Apollo project aka Moon Landing was the analogy.
I do believe that was brute forced.
And as I already pointed out, even if we fail, we can still save millions of lives.
Plus the cost to treat people is spiraling out of control.
https://www.fightcancer.org/sites/default/files/National%20D...
I do believe that was brute forced.
And as I already pointed out, even if we fail, we can still save millions of lives.
Plus the cost to treat people is spiraling out of control.
https://www.fightcancer.org/sites/default/files/National%20D...
Once again, the physics behind space travel was already well known and it was mostly the technicalities that needed addressing. Compared to human metabolism, navigation in space is rather straightforward math. A lot of the necessary stuff was already discovered by Newton's time, in the 17th century.
We know a lot less about our own bodies than about celestial bodies, simply because relevant observation is nowhere near as easy. Observing and measuring activity of cells in vivo, within living human beings themselves, is a fundamentally hard problem.
We can do a lot of stuff in mice, but mice are rather different from us and results in mice usually don't translate to workable therapies for people.
Our problems with cancer, Alzheimer's etc. are problems of understanding, not technicalities. Imagine trying to fly to the Moon without knowledge of Kepler's gravity laws. No amount of money can compensate for such massive ignorance.
We know a lot less about our own bodies than about celestial bodies, simply because relevant observation is nowhere near as easy. Observing and measuring activity of cells in vivo, within living human beings themselves, is a fundamentally hard problem.
We can do a lot of stuff in mice, but mice are rather different from us and results in mice usually don't translate to workable therapies for people.
Our problems with cancer, Alzheimer's etc. are problems of understanding, not technicalities. Imagine trying to fly to the Moon without knowledge of Kepler's gravity laws. No amount of money can compensate for such massive ignorance.
Simply?
Cancer is because cells do not copy their data exactly - sometimes because the copying process is imperfect and introduces faults, and sometimes because viruses introduce faults.
There is a stupidly large number of different copying faults, so there is a stupidly large number of possible types of cancer. Cancer is entirely dissimilar to many other diseases of the body.
To cure cancer requires either preventing all copying faults, or detecting all copying faults and fixing them. This is hard - essentially requires completely replacing the normal cell splitting process, and/or the DNA checking process.
Removing viruses from our environment would help reduce some cancer problems.
Also note, old age is in large part due to telomere shortening: that is a process evolved to help fight against cancer growth (many cancerous cells reproduce and are then killed by apoptosis due to reaching a fixed number of cell reproductions).
Cancer is because cells do not copy their data exactly - sometimes because the copying process is imperfect and introduces faults, and sometimes because viruses introduce faults.
There is a stupidly large number of different copying faults, so there is a stupidly large number of possible types of cancer. Cancer is entirely dissimilar to many other diseases of the body.
To cure cancer requires either preventing all copying faults, or detecting all copying faults and fixing them. This is hard - essentially requires completely replacing the normal cell splitting process, and/or the DNA checking process.
Removing viruses from our environment would help reduce some cancer problems.
Also note, old age is in large part due to telomere shortening: that is a process evolved to help fight against cancer growth (many cancerous cells reproduce and are then killed by apoptosis due to reaching a fixed number of cell reproductions).
It isn’t an unbounded problem, and we aren’t powerless. Our bodies even have mechanisms to handle copy faults, either destroying the rouge or repairing the damage. There are gaps and holes, but our bodies are not naive to the problem (which would make it orders of magnitude harder to solve).
I disagree.
Our cells are spaghetti code, the worst technical debt created by the random chances of evolution. There are multiple competing systems (e.g. telomeres) at cross purposes. Think trying to patch up bad software: you can perhaps make some small improvements to reliability, but overall there are so many thousands of errors due to design flaws that you cannot fix the system overall.
To fix cancer would require some extreme design challenges. We can fix a few of the bugs e.g. we reduce mutations by using sunblock. Perhaps we could copy some systems from other animals - hard but perhaps not impossible.
After we fix cancer, we need to fix cell aging, which the most obvious effects start kicking in about 60ish. Oh, and we also need to fix brains: they fail in complex ways. Human lifetime problems are fractal trees, not linear steps.
Our cells are spaghetti code, the worst technical debt created by the random chances of evolution. There are multiple competing systems (e.g. telomeres) at cross purposes. Think trying to patch up bad software: you can perhaps make some small improvements to reliability, but overall there are so many thousands of errors due to design flaws that you cannot fix the system overall.
To fix cancer would require some extreme design challenges. We can fix a few of the bugs e.g. we reduce mutations by using sunblock. Perhaps we could copy some systems from other animals - hard but perhaps not impossible.
After we fix cancer, we need to fix cell aging, which the most obvious effects start kicking in about 60ish. Oh, and we also need to fix brains: they fail in complex ways. Human lifetime problems are fractal trees, not linear steps.
All of us have some amount of cancerous cells at any given point in time, we just don't notice most of the time because our body is quite adept at detecting and neutralizing cancerous cells before they become a problem.
What we call "cancer" are the cancer cells that managed to slip past the body's defences, so "curing cancer" doesn't necessitate addressing all cell copy errors. We just need to figure out how to deal with the small handful our body can't address.
What we call "cancer" are the cancer cells that managed to slip past the body's defences, so "curing cancer" doesn't necessitate addressing all cell copy errors. We just need to figure out how to deal with the small handful our body can't address.
I agree we all have many benign cancers. But chronic cancer is not really cured cancer.
You seem to be suggesting we could find a way to detect harmful cancers and ignore benign cancers, but I am fairly sure that any “detection” couldn’t be discriminating enough (~100% true positive) to say it was a cure for cancer. Also cancer is often noticed once it has already caused damage, perhaps harmful damage, so your cancer is “cured” but the patient would sometimes get loss of function.
You seem to be suggesting we could find a way to detect harmful cancers and ignore benign cancers, but I am fairly sure that any “detection” couldn’t be discriminating enough (~100% true positive) to say it was a cure for cancer. Also cancer is often noticed once it has already caused damage, perhaps harmful damage, so your cancer is “cured” but the patient would sometimes get loss of function.
Removing viruses from our environment would make our immune systems much weaker to the viruses that inevitably get through, no?
The immune system is fiendishly complex: the technical debt of a system of programming by random mutations.
Answer:
I don’t think that our immune system would be weaker for novel viruses, because our immune system isn’t trained to work on unknown viruses. The immune system does work on known viruses, however for the virus to be detected, a person needs to have been infected the first time: so by induction it doesn’t matter for one person. Although population effects might matter (herd immunity, societal systems breakdown).
Background:
The immune system starts with a random generation of attacks. As a foetus the immune system learns to NOT detect its own cells (by removing any self-attacks). The immune system is left with the ability to detect a variety of things that are not its own cells.
The immune system also trains to not attack common environmental factors, which prevents allergies, but AFAIK that training stops within a few months of birth (there is a special organ for this).
There is a popular theory that if the immune system isn’t given something to attack then it attacks itself (creating auto-immune diseases) so we should “eat dirt” to prevent that. AFAIK there is no scientific consensus about that. Certainly we have counter-examples where viruses cause autoimmune diseases e.g. Epstein-Barr virus causing Multiple Sclerosis.
The immune system also trains to be able to quickly attack things it has attacked before. So it provides protection against some variation of some repeat viral infections because new variants might have the same attack point. This works better against repeat bacterial infections, because bacteria have more features to detect, so the immune system is more likely to have some defence against different variants. This part of the eat-dirt theory is a bit better, but still impossible to calculate the costs versus benefits. Personally I don’t try to “eat dirt”, but I mostly make little effort to avoid “dirty” things because the effort seems mentally costly (avoidance that worked would be socially damaging, IMHO).
Answer:
I don’t think that our immune system would be weaker for novel viruses, because our immune system isn’t trained to work on unknown viruses. The immune system does work on known viruses, however for the virus to be detected, a person needs to have been infected the first time: so by induction it doesn’t matter for one person. Although population effects might matter (herd immunity, societal systems breakdown).
Background:
The immune system starts with a random generation of attacks. As a foetus the immune system learns to NOT detect its own cells (by removing any self-attacks). The immune system is left with the ability to detect a variety of things that are not its own cells.
The immune system also trains to not attack common environmental factors, which prevents allergies, but AFAIK that training stops within a few months of birth (there is a special organ for this).
There is a popular theory that if the immune system isn’t given something to attack then it attacks itself (creating auto-immune diseases) so we should “eat dirt” to prevent that. AFAIK there is no scientific consensus about that. Certainly we have counter-examples where viruses cause autoimmune diseases e.g. Epstein-Barr virus causing Multiple Sclerosis.
The immune system also trains to be able to quickly attack things it has attacked before. So it provides protection against some variation of some repeat viral infections because new variants might have the same attack point. This works better against repeat bacterial infections, because bacteria have more features to detect, so the immune system is more likely to have some defence against different variants. This part of the eat-dirt theory is a bit better, but still impossible to calculate the costs versus benefits. Personally I don’t try to “eat dirt”, but I mostly make little effort to avoid “dirty” things because the effort seems mentally costly (avoidance that worked would be socially damaging, IMHO).
In 2015, I shared lodgings with a student of cognitive sciences. This week, conversations that I had with him and his friends kept haunting me. My friend would talk about how we didn't (don't) know so much about the brain. He was sure that the magic going in there is probably outside of what anybody can understand, and that it would take one thousand years to make any significant progress in said understanding. I have had or heard similar arguments regarding cancer and biological systems in general.
There is no God hiding in there. Nature is not magic, but just evolution and selection, with a high degree of randomness. If Nature's random process can create intelligence, so can we, by the same more or less fortuitous means.
And now we have ChatGPT. It's not human level intelligence (yet). But to me, it is proof that intelligence is --as everybody said without quite really believing it--an emerging phenomenon: add enough computing units and a mechanism to coordinate them towards achieving a goal, and you get something "intelligent". We, the human beings, don't need to understand how the trillions of parameters work together. All we need to do is to find a process that finds those parameters.
We will discover that untreatable diseases like ageing (and cancer, its corollary) can be worked out in exactly the same way: we don't need to understand how our biology "computes" our fate. We just need to engineer the equivalent of backpropagation for biological tuning, and I have a hunch this too will be a matter of sheer computing power.
And we will get there by surprise, earlier than what most people expect. But only if our first act as newly ascended gods is not to create new creatures that take away our role of top species in our world.
There is no God hiding in there. Nature is not magic, but just evolution and selection, with a high degree of randomness. If Nature's random process can create intelligence, so can we, by the same more or less fortuitous means.
And now we have ChatGPT. It's not human level intelligence (yet). But to me, it is proof that intelligence is --as everybody said without quite really believing it--an emerging phenomenon: add enough computing units and a mechanism to coordinate them towards achieving a goal, and you get something "intelligent". We, the human beings, don't need to understand how the trillions of parameters work together. All we need to do is to find a process that finds those parameters.
We will discover that untreatable diseases like ageing (and cancer, its corollary) can be worked out in exactly the same way: we don't need to understand how our biology "computes" our fate. We just need to engineer the equivalent of backpropagation for biological tuning, and I have a hunch this too will be a matter of sheer computing power.
And we will get there by surprise, earlier than what most people expect. But only if our first act as newly ascended gods is not to create new creatures that take away our role of top species in our world.
One interesting thing I've tried to understand is emotions.
They are deeply personal and deeply physical. It's hard to talk of strong emotions in ways that don't reference the body's reactions along with those emotions. Emotions are tied to our physical bodies, chemistry, etc.
We also know that animals have emotions. That they are mostly guided by emotion.
But try to imagine emotions that, say, a sperm whale has, but that humans do not have. We know that the sperm whale has emotions outside of our own. They hunt at tremendous depth where the partial pressures of sodium and potassium change the chemistry of nerve conduction. We can try to think about the emotions that a hunting and hungry whale has in the abyssal darkness miles away from air. All attempts at it are just shoehorning our own emotions onto theirs though. Try feeling it, try having empathy with it. Who has any idea of the extra emotions that mammals with such radically different lives have, or what emotions they may lack. I may be a special case, but I just can't even imagine what a diving sperm whale is feeling.
Emotions in other animals are something that we know must exist, do exist. But that we can have no real insight into. A forbidden box, outside of logic and our great minds, sleeping in a dog on the floor beside me.
They are deeply personal and deeply physical. It's hard to talk of strong emotions in ways that don't reference the body's reactions along with those emotions. Emotions are tied to our physical bodies, chemistry, etc.
We also know that animals have emotions. That they are mostly guided by emotion.
But try to imagine emotions that, say, a sperm whale has, but that humans do not have. We know that the sperm whale has emotions outside of our own. They hunt at tremendous depth where the partial pressures of sodium and potassium change the chemistry of nerve conduction. We can try to think about the emotions that a hunting and hungry whale has in the abyssal darkness miles away from air. All attempts at it are just shoehorning our own emotions onto theirs though. Try feeling it, try having empathy with it. Who has any idea of the extra emotions that mammals with such radically different lives have, or what emotions they may lack. I may be a special case, but I just can't even imagine what a diving sperm whale is feeling.
Emotions in other animals are something that we know must exist, do exist. But that we can have no real insight into. A forbidden box, outside of logic and our great minds, sleeping in a dog on the floor beside me.
ChatGPT is really good at goal seeking. It has no idea what should be the goal, that takes wisdom.
Or..luck and enough tries at it? Maybe there's survivorship bias in goal setting
Neural nets got started precisely as an attempt to understand the brain. ChatGPT is the very fruit of trying to do what your roommate talked about.
Also, who says that aging and dying are not nature’s high level backpropagation? You’re one neuron, and it’s time to be > 0 is finite.
Besides, aren’t cancer cells trying to do the same thing you want to do? Live forever, with no regard for their place in the whole?
Also, who says that aging and dying are not nature’s high level backpropagation? You’re one neuron, and it’s time to be > 0 is finite.
Besides, aren’t cancer cells trying to do the same thing you want to do? Live forever, with no regard for their place in the whole?
I have lost 4 dear friends in the last two years.
Made me reconsider my life and prioritizing my happiness before my loved ones. It has been liberating. Hope the prospect of death help you find your own light
Made me reconsider my life and prioritizing my happiness before my loved ones. It has been liberating. Hope the prospect of death help you find your own light
Assuming you will remember how you die, that's what the entire life is about.
Since we’re on the subject of brain cancer, what’s the status of several potential cures for cancer?
This is one of them
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/promising-duke-university-polio...
https://corporate.dukehealth.org/news/poliovirus-therapy-sho...
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/promising-duke-university-polio...
https://corporate.dukehealth.org/news/poliovirus-therapy-sho...
That's one of the basis of Stoicism.
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I used to work in health care and once there was a patient, and old man, barely alive, groaning and getting ready for hospice. I didn't see any indication, like family pictures, that anyone visited him. The nurse told me "He used to be chief of surgery and head of this hospital." I thought, so this is how it ends for all of us no matter how high and mighty, dying alone, hopefully having made peace with our God.