To supercharge learning, look to play(nautil.us)
nautil.us
To supercharge learning, look to play
https://nautil.us/to-supercharge-learning-look-to-play-292946/
109 comments
I think you should talk with your wife more to be honest because I think you've missed the key elements of what she was telling you. I live in California myself and have a number of friends who are teachers at various grade levels. Your wife is spot on and AI is the last thing that's going to solve the issue. Children with behavioral problems (hint: 9.5/10 times it's their family's fault but you're not allowed to blame the parent as an educator) aren't going to cooperate with your automated learning. If they were a poorly performing student before, they also probably have a home situation that isn't going to be receptive to whatever pressure you try to apply on them to coerce their children. And even if you could find an angle to apply pressure from, what are you going to do if you discover that the solution is disproportionately necessary for certain minority groups? Now even if your solution works it's dead in the water because it's racist. The teachers aren't leaving because they lack solutions they are leaving because nothing effective is allowed and all the while they get to endure abuse from both parents and students. None of this is going to be solved by making it even easier to ignore school by replacing teachers.
My wife is a teacher and she often notices that many behavioral problems are curriculum problems. If Jimmy suddenly starts pulling Susie's hair it's not because he wants to hurt her, it's because he wants to distract from the fact that for whatever reason he isn't prepared for what he's just been asked to do.
As for myself, I spent freshmen year stealing anything not bolted down and a few things that were. I was just bored and angry that the system wasn't treating me like it respected my potential. That was childish of me, but then again, I was a child.
A therapist recommended putting me in some advanced classes, and the behavior problems went away.
For these reasons I think that the adaptability of an AI generated curriculum might solve some of those behavior problems.
Then there are the other problems. Like maybe the student needs glasses to see the board or feels unsafe for some reason or is too busy working to feed their siblings. For those, we're going to need humans in the loop and compassion in the policies.
As for myself, I spent freshmen year stealing anything not bolted down and a few things that were. I was just bored and angry that the system wasn't treating me like it respected my potential. That was childish of me, but then again, I was a child.
A therapist recommended putting me in some advanced classes, and the behavior problems went away.
For these reasons I think that the adaptability of an AI generated curriculum might solve some of those behavior problems.
Then there are the other problems. Like maybe the student needs glasses to see the board or feels unsafe for some reason or is too busy working to feed their siblings. For those, we're going to need humans in the loop and compassion in the policies.
Do you think there will be much point in going to school if AI exists and it’s setting you assignments? I was already bored enough in school and at least I maybe could’ve been given the motivation to conform because I’d be able to have a decent career and money in the end, now ?
Let's be real, school is 95% about day care and training kids to be obedient worker drones. Education is tertiary at best, but talked about the most to help the parents and teachers feel good about the situation. I'm a state licensed middle school teacher who's taught 5th and 6th grade before walking away.
Modern educational curriculums have very little content for: critical thinking, logic, creativity, self-teaching, responsibility, civic responsibility, curiosity, compassion, self respect, and finding purpose. Instead of teaching how to use history to prevent making the same mistakes we make them memorize dates. Instead of teaching them to use writing as an emotional regulator and self therapy we teach them to read a paragraph quickly to answer a multiple choice question about it. Since standardized tests are easiest and cheapest to grade through a scantron, state tests emphasize facts and memorization.
The entire lecture and classroom school system 99% of us know teaches dependence over independence and blind obedience over critical thinking.
Sports are taught through a hyper-competitive lens, getting them ready for a possible professional sports career.
See the famous New York state teacher of the year John Gatto for more https://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html
Modern educational curriculums have very little content for: critical thinking, logic, creativity, self-teaching, responsibility, civic responsibility, curiosity, compassion, self respect, and finding purpose. Instead of teaching how to use history to prevent making the same mistakes we make them memorize dates. Instead of teaching them to use writing as an emotional regulator and self therapy we teach them to read a paragraph quickly to answer a multiple choice question about it. Since standardized tests are easiest and cheapest to grade through a scantron, state tests emphasize facts and memorization.
The entire lecture and classroom school system 99% of us know teaches dependence over independence and blind obedience over critical thinking.
Sports are taught through a hyper-competitive lens, getting them ready for a possible professional sports career.
See the famous New York state teacher of the year John Gatto for more https://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html
Well there would be no point in going to receive, work on, or turn in the AI-handled assignments. But presumably there would be projects that require you to go to a place and talk to people (maybe your classmates, maybe the wider community) or get your hands dirty in some way you can't do from home. Freeing teachers up to moderate that sort of thing would be a win.
teacher needs to beg parents let their kids do homework today. at least in now society, it is not working.
Not sure what you mean by solutions to education problems being "racist" and not allowed.... Also seems rude to assume you know better about this person's motivation for leaving teaching than they do.
I am a former California educator switched to software engineer. The reasons I switched careers is directly because education is underfunded and under supported by school administration and I didn't see a sustainable future for myself there. Many other brilliant teachers I knew have also left or are leaving because it isn't worth the effort and stress for bare minimum pay. Teachers aren't leaving because of the students, they're leaving because of the systems. You're severely overworked and underpaid, with no backup or support from the institution, in overly large class sizes, and have poor curriculums that teach to outdated standardized tests that you have to stick to so the school can try to bargain for more funding.
I think a good system of well funded schools and teachers can get almost any student to a good place if they're enrolled at an early enough age and properly educated. Unfortunately there are increasingly common situations where a student has been let down by the school system for years and ends up falling too far behind their grade level to catch back up, but that is a failing of the school system and not their race or home life. I know because I have first hand experience in those elementary or middle schools, they just aren't able to serve students well with what they have (low wages lead to inexperienced or uneducated teaching staff, overfilled classrooms leads to not enough individual attention, poor learning environments, etc).
I am a former California educator switched to software engineer. The reasons I switched careers is directly because education is underfunded and under supported by school administration and I didn't see a sustainable future for myself there. Many other brilliant teachers I knew have also left or are leaving because it isn't worth the effort and stress for bare minimum pay. Teachers aren't leaving because of the students, they're leaving because of the systems. You're severely overworked and underpaid, with no backup or support from the institution, in overly large class sizes, and have poor curriculums that teach to outdated standardized tests that you have to stick to so the school can try to bargain for more funding.
I think a good system of well funded schools and teachers can get almost any student to a good place if they're enrolled at an early enough age and properly educated. Unfortunately there are increasingly common situations where a student has been let down by the school system for years and ends up falling too far behind their grade level to catch back up, but that is a failing of the school system and not their race or home life. I know because I have first hand experience in those elementary or middle schools, they just aren't able to serve students well with what they have (low wages lead to inexperienced or uneducated teaching staff, overfilled classrooms leads to not enough individual attention, poor learning environments, etc).
I’m helping to run a preschool right now, I don’t think it’s a matter of “early enough” - if there are family issues, if they’re feeding the kid crap, not helping them get enough sleep, sending the kid to school with crap food, there’s frequently not too much the school can do, even with very high ratio of highly dedicated staff per student.
The school can work on behavioral issues, but then they go away on break, and come back with big regressions.
We should stop blaming everything on the schools. There are ways to raise a kid that are conducive to behaving well in that environment, and there are ways that are not conducive to that.
But we can’t blame it all on the parents either, they seem to have a lot less slack than I think US parents have had historically.
The school can work on behavioral issues, but then they go away on break, and come back with big regressions.
We should stop blaming everything on the schools. There are ways to raise a kid that are conducive to behaving well in that environment, and there are ways that are not conducive to that.
But we can’t blame it all on the parents either, they seem to have a lot less slack than I think US parents have had historically.
Have many teachers in my family. My only complaint with your statement is that 9.5 out of 10 is way too generous. The level of absolute bare basics decency and behavior is so bad that it's hard to believe.
I spend plenty of time around “normal” well-adjusted middle- and upper-middle-class kids, and I’d say kids are inherently little balls of emotion with their own ideas and personalities who haven’t yet developed socially appropriate ways of dealing with frustration. They get into plenty of mischief despite their parents’ best efforts and wide variety of parenting styles.
Most families are doing their best, but being human is just hard sometimes.
Most families are doing their best, but being human is just hard sometimes.
To be clear, I'm not talking about mischief. I'm talking about assault, battery, serious destruction of property, direct threats to the teachers during class, with less than zero support given to the staff by the administration. To give a specific example, one of my friends used to teach 5th grade. A student got angry with him, and when he turned to address another student, jumped him and literally pulled his arm out of his socket. Not only was the student not expelled, but my friend had to spend months while recovering from surgery refusing to sign papers the administration was pushing on him to make him accept all responsibility. This is not hyperbole in the least, it really happened, and it is way more common than anyone would think.
Okay, that’s pretty messed up. Seems plausible the kid may come from some context of severe neglect/abuse. (I am guessing this kid is quite a bit older than the 1st graders the top-level comment was discussing?)
I’m thinking more of 4–7-year-olds hitting each-other with sticks they pick up at the park, having temper meltdowns at trivial frustrations, refusing to follow instructions to stop doing obviously unsafe things, etc.
What do you think should be done in this sort of case? How does it get to this point, and what could be done to help kids like this before they reach the point of literally assaulting their teachers or other criminal-level violence? Most kinds of school punishments (detention, extra homework, suspension, ...) seem unlikely to really solve whatever issues this kid has, but teachers don’t have the extra bandwidth to be full-time social-worker caretakers of each specific kid.
I’m thinking more of 4–7-year-olds hitting each-other with sticks they pick up at the park, having temper meltdowns at trivial frustrations, refusing to follow instructions to stop doing obviously unsafe things, etc.
What do you think should be done in this sort of case? How does it get to this point, and what could be done to help kids like this before they reach the point of literally assaulting their teachers or other criminal-level violence? Most kinds of school punishments (detention, extra homework, suspension, ...) seem unlikely to really solve whatever issues this kid has, but teachers don’t have the extra bandwidth to be full-time social-worker caretakers of each specific kid.
He was a 5th grader. Average size, just clear... issues across the board.
With the foreword that I know this is a huge thorny mess of a problem with no easy solutions, there are three things that would make an immediate improvement.
#1, by far: Administrations as they currently are live in existential fear of a lawsuit that will destroy the entire district. Teachers are thrown under the bus with almost rabid fervor, as they are seen as fungible. This must stop, and real consequences need to be consistently enforced across the board. The genuinely unstable and violent need to be removed from the general school population. I do not know what to best do with them, and I will not even hazard a guess in this post. But I do know that they are holding the entirety of the education of the remaining 90% of the student body hostage to their whims, and that has to stop.
#2: The student teacher ratio needs to drop from 30+:1 to below 15:1, ideally even lower with the addition of aides along with regular teaching staff. The money is there- if you look at the per capita spend, the US is very high, even compared to other Western nations. We just blow it on literally anything other than paying teachers.
#3: Free, school-supplied breakfasts and lunches for the entire student body, no questions asked. Hunger is a huge deal, and hungry kids can't learn. Food instability affects somewhere between 20-50% of the students in the US, and it is a phenomenal return on outcome vs. $ spent.
With the foreword that I know this is a huge thorny mess of a problem with no easy solutions, there are three things that would make an immediate improvement.
#1, by far: Administrations as they currently are live in existential fear of a lawsuit that will destroy the entire district. Teachers are thrown under the bus with almost rabid fervor, as they are seen as fungible. This must stop, and real consequences need to be consistently enforced across the board. The genuinely unstable and violent need to be removed from the general school population. I do not know what to best do with them, and I will not even hazard a guess in this post. But I do know that they are holding the entirety of the education of the remaining 90% of the student body hostage to their whims, and that has to stop.
#2: The student teacher ratio needs to drop from 30+:1 to below 15:1, ideally even lower with the addition of aides along with regular teaching staff. The money is there- if you look at the per capita spend, the US is very high, even compared to other Western nations. We just blow it on literally anything other than paying teachers.
#3: Free, school-supplied breakfasts and lunches for the entire student body, no questions asked. Hunger is a huge deal, and hungry kids can't learn. Food instability affects somewhere between 20-50% of the students in the US, and it is a phenomenal return on outcome vs. $ spent.
I mean, if we're worried about ai taking all the jobs and concentration of wealth, just raise taxes on the billionaires and hire more teachers...
Getting class sizes to 10:1 or 5:1 is quite the jobs program, and will lead to amazing long term outcomes for the kids.
Getting class sizes to 10:1 or 5:1 is quite the jobs program, and will lead to amazing long term outcomes for the kids.
A "jobs program" can work for unskilled labor like the Civil Conservation Corps ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Conservation_Corps ).
Being a teacher is like being a nurse: it really takes the right kind of person to do the job well. Having more bodies in classrooms isn't a solution by itself.
Being a teacher is like being a nurse: it really takes the right kind of person to do the job well. Having more bodies in classrooms isn't a solution by itself.
There are plenty of capable people, but having to take a vow of poverty understandably prevents a lot of them from becoming educators.
There's enormous turnover is teaching due to too large class sizes and general bullshit; I imagine some combination of removing bullshit and raising pay will make it easy for many people with credentials to come back.
One can also take a longer view and give better incentives to get the teaching credentials in the first place. It's not at all impossible to grow the number of teachers ethically.
One can also take a longer view and give better incentives to get the teaching credentials in the first place. It's not at all impossible to grow the number of teachers ethically.
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Why not cut out massive govt. corruption and waste first? The money is already there. Pouring more water into a bucket with a thousand holes is not helpful.
The holes aren’t in the schools.
But schools tax people?
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No one here said schools have holes. The holes are in the govt which owns and controls public schools. Do you really think that is not relevant?
By your logic, schools don't tax people so it is irrelevant discussing taxation when it comes to improving schools.
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No one here said schools have holes. The holes are in the govt which owns and controls public schools. Do you really think that is not relevant?
By your logic, schools don't tax people so it is irrelevant discussing taxation when it comes to improving schools.
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What are you thinking about when you say "nothing effective is allowed"?
Not OP, but removal of problem children from the general classroom environment and clear and consistent consequences for actions.
This is very very necessary and basically impossible to actually get from the administrations. My wife has had kids who violently disrupted her class 3+ times a week, to the point where she had to evacuate 20+ other children from the room for multiple hours at a time (I'm not exaggerating at all).
We finally sat down and I helped her write a specifically worded email (finally got a good use out of all of that HR training as a manager! ha) to trigger the right response from her admin.
Any shitty single kid can ruin a classroom for the rest of their peers. And the system doesn't allow for any consequences. It's massively disappointing.
We finally sat down and I helped her write a specifically worded email (finally got a good use out of all of that HR training as a manager! ha) to trigger the right response from her admin.
Any shitty single kid can ruin a classroom for the rest of their peers. And the system doesn't allow for any consequences. It's massively disappointing.
From my chair as a parent, I could not get teachers to care about one of my kids being bullied in class, and it was the administration that finally did something.
I have now dealt with dozens of public school teachers and while some were good, most were ambivalent and there were more garbage teachers than good ones.
The refrain of It's Not The Teachers rings hollow. It is the teachers. It may also be the administration, the parents, the community, the politicians, everybody, but it is still the teachers.
I have now dealt with dozens of public school teachers and while some were good, most were ambivalent and there were more garbage teachers than good ones.
The refrain of It's Not The Teachers rings hollow. It is the teachers. It may also be the administration, the parents, the community, the politicians, everybody, but it is still the teachers.
You should have started with administration first. Teach aren’t equipped or provided solutions for bullying and many are dealing with acting out or violent children. See the case of the teacher shot by her violent student a few months ago who kept warning school administrators who did nothing, even on the day of the shooting.
Sure. But it’s pretty easy to get dejected when you have a large class full of maniacs and no support.
Also, people here should stop generalizing their experience in California to the country at large. MA and NJ have pretty good public schools, some of which are in dense and diverse regions of each state.
Also, people here should stop generalizing their experience in California to the country at large. MA and NJ have pretty good public schools, some of which are in dense and diverse regions of each state.
Collecting problem children in smaller, more controlled classes is the only effective strategy. In a class of say, 30 kids, it just takes one to disrupt a lesson. On the other hand, if every kid is cooperating, a single teacher can effectively manage a class of hundreds (and actually do in some Asian countries).
Separation helps the problem kids as well. I have personally observed a high success rate in turning around kids once they get the more focused attention possible in a small class.
To be concrete, if you had 2 teachers and 60 kids with 5 of them "problematic", the most effective approach would be to divide them so you had the 55 cooperative learners in one room and the others in their own class.
Separation helps the problem kids as well. I have personally observed a high success rate in turning around kids once they get the more focused attention possible in a small class.
To be concrete, if you had 2 teachers and 60 kids with 5 of them "problematic", the most effective approach would be to divide them so you had the 55 cooperative learners in one room and the others in their own class.
I found this was mostly a problem with school administration. You don't get enough support from the admin to come by and take a student to the office or out of the classroom if they're being disruptive. They want students only in their overcrowded classrooms and no support staff to cut down on costs. At a better funded school it's easy to phone the office and have someone take a student out to calm down or for a short detention but at the lower end public schools you're on your own to try and deal with everything that might happen in the school day, and so anything that happens you have to personally attend to which ends up eating into your class time or energy.
Except this is frequently the goal of those children. And so where are you going to send them? To another classroom with other troublemakers, all in one group? What chance would they have?
What everyone is talking around is the fact that the solution to "problem children" in the classroom, if you're removing them, is that you have to spend more money and more time working with them to get them off the "problem" track and re-integrated.
Because that's the stakes: that kid who disrupts the classroom, if you don't succeed, is your future welfare dependency, local crime problem, or incarceration cost and a huge amount of lost tax revenue.
What everyone is talking around is the fact that the solution to "problem children" in the classroom, if you're removing them, is that you have to spend more money and more time working with them to get them off the "problem" track and re-integrated.
Because that's the stakes: that kid who disrupts the classroom, if you don't succeed, is your future welfare dependency, local crime problem, or incarceration cost and a huge amount of lost tax revenue.
If the other 20-30 students aren’t able to learn, the stakes are 20-30 times as much (regarding tax income).
I'm curious though, what's the alternative? Yes, the problem child will cause problems in the future if they're removed from class. But they're also going to cause problems for other kids now, and there's still no reason to think they'd be any less problematic in the future.
There's a funny thing that happens where recruiting that is effective and easy to allow gets allowed. That leaves the things that are hard to allow but effective, because if they aren't effective, nobody cares about them.
Hence, nothing effective is allowed.
It's the same concept by which Google Maps will invariably tell you, "you are in the fastest path to for destination", even if you just took the dumbest wrong turn possible.
Hence, nothing effective is allowed.
It's the same concept by which Google Maps will invariably tell you, "you are in the fastest path to for destination", even if you just took the dumbest wrong turn possible.
Sorry, I wasn't saying AI is the way to fix the issue, I think it's going to be the necessary response when everyone realizes no one wants to sign up for the shitty job of being a public school teacher.
I agree with this. My mom is a 1st grade teacher for almost 40 years now. She tells me that she can tell whether a kid will be successful based on interactions with their parents. If their parents are a lost cause, the kid will be in most cases too.
Thank you for being real!
Getting sick of these NPCs on here...
Large language models do are no “A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer” they are stochastic parrots and don’t even parrot facts reliably.
I teach 3rd, 4th, and 5th grade kids to code. Mostly code.org does the work of introducing code through play but the value of the teacher is in classroom management. Specific to programming, the value I bring is debugging experience and empathy. Instead of saying “you fix your problem like this” I focus on trying to understand/empathize with why the problem was made to begin with and then using that info to guide them to the correct fix.
I teach 3rd, 4th, and 5th grade kids to code. Mostly code.org does the work of introducing code through play but the value of the teacher is in classroom management. Specific to programming, the value I bring is debugging experience and empathy. Instead of saying “you fix your problem like this” I focus on trying to understand/empathize with why the problem was made to begin with and then using that info to guide them to the correct fix.
We need less tech and more humans in education. All the things in your first paragraph are true problems, but the solution is 15 kids per class and discipline in the class room not AI.
I’m only half-joking (maybe barely joking) when I say your comment made me think:
“The movement that wants to pause AI development should just tell school boards and DEI activists that AI will allow every child to learn at their own pace. Probably no faster way to put a total ban in motion than an appeal to toxic ‘anti-racism’ activism.”
“The movement that wants to pause AI development should just tell school boards and DEI activists that AI will allow every child to learn at their own pace. Probably no faster way to put a total ban in motion than an appeal to toxic ‘anti-racism’ activism.”
Alternatively, they should just tell school boards and state legislatures that AI will allow children to learn at their own pace. Probably no faster way to put a total ban in motion than an appeal to toxic “anti-wokeism’ activism.
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Socialization is far more important than any other skill that a child learns in primary and even secondary education.
I don't see ever see the wide adoption of an AI homeschooling solution coming to fruition due to this fact.
I don't see ever see the wide adoption of an AI homeschooling solution coming to fruition due to this fact.
Eh? Homeschooling is a very social activity. I'd argue it's more pro-social than government schools: homeschooled students are learning/ working in more communal environments (e.g. the family home), they spend far less time on busy work, and they tend to have more free time which is then spent on group extracurricular activities.
While many families did jump on homeschooling because of inexpensive computers, online courses and tutors, government schools jumped on online courses, assignments, instructors, etc. even when there is a teacher and two dozen classmates in the room. Government schools are far less pro-social, IME.
To whatever extent AI drives down the cost, it will accelerate the movement toward homeschooling, but I don't see it reducing the prosocial aspects of homeschooling, while it likely will in government schools.
While many families did jump on homeschooling because of inexpensive computers, online courses and tutors, government schools jumped on online courses, assignments, instructors, etc. even when there is a teacher and two dozen classmates in the room. Government schools are far less pro-social, IME.
To whatever extent AI drives down the cost, it will accelerate the movement toward homeschooling, but I don't see it reducing the prosocial aspects of homeschooling, while it likely will in government schools.
Empirically, home schooled kids are more socially awkward. I have nothing against home schooling, but the kids are definitely more limited in their exposure to different people and situations.
I've not noticed this personally, and have known loads of homeschooled people.
When you say "empirically" though, I'm assuming there some info out there that backs this up? Would love to take a look, as homeschooling is on the table for us.
When you say "empirically" though, I'm assuming there some info out there that backs this up? Would love to take a look, as homeschooling is on the table for us.
I'd say that even applies to most tertiary (undergrad) education too. Unless the student is committed to becoming a pure math researcher or similar.
LLMs have already done wonders for my own learning and I think it will have a huge effect in highschool education and beyond.
But below that level, the topics that are being taught are very standardized and have been studied to death, and there already exists a ton of interactive learning tools, toys, projects, and games. Teachers below middle-school level are mostly babysitting and trying to just get kids to learn the rules and pay attention.
I am concerned for the education of the next generation of kids. Stories like yours are all too common.
But below that level, the topics that are being taught are very standardized and have been studied to death, and there already exists a ton of interactive learning tools, toys, projects, and games. Teachers below middle-school level are mostly babysitting and trying to just get kids to learn the rules and pay attention.
I am concerned for the education of the next generation of kids. Stories like yours are all too common.
>LLMs have already done wonders for my own learning and I think it will have a huge effect in highschool education and beyond.
Can you explain your process for using it? Is it done in a session or do you ask random questions throughout the day? Specific topics or general?
Can you explain your process for using it? Is it done in a session or do you ask random questions throughout the day? Specific topics or general?
I'm not the OP but the way chatgpt has enabled my learning last 2 months is:
when I study or learn stuff, I have questions. I'm naturally curious and desire to fully understand something, but also a topic may encourage me to explore strange other avenues or branches or topics until I'm satisfied and can return.
Reading from books or videos can be frustrating for obvious reasons. When tutored, I need an instructor who is not bound to "lesson one page one, now lesson one page two" blind and sequential approach.
Chatgpt has been nothing less than a God send.
E.g. I've tried to learn French 5 times over 25 years living in Canada. Always failed. I tried Michel Thomas self study, Berlitz group classroom, duolingo, even private tutor. They were serious efforts, but I hated the language and never felt I am even close to understanding it.
Now whenever I have the remotest slightest question or curiosity I ask chatgpt. And then move on with the sequential class satisfied. It's both emotionally satisfying and encouraging, and it allows me to have better understanding of each topic. It's been a genuine force multiplier.
Same with music theory (0.1% of piano teachers I've met are remotely capable or willing of answering questions "why". Two of them swore that "music theory" == "learning notation". Etc.) and, though far less, Python.
when I study or learn stuff, I have questions. I'm naturally curious and desire to fully understand something, but also a topic may encourage me to explore strange other avenues or branches or topics until I'm satisfied and can return.
Reading from books or videos can be frustrating for obvious reasons. When tutored, I need an instructor who is not bound to "lesson one page one, now lesson one page two" blind and sequential approach.
Chatgpt has been nothing less than a God send.
E.g. I've tried to learn French 5 times over 25 years living in Canada. Always failed. I tried Michel Thomas self study, Berlitz group classroom, duolingo, even private tutor. They were serious efforts, but I hated the language and never felt I am even close to understanding it.
Now whenever I have the remotest slightest question or curiosity I ask chatgpt. And then move on with the sequential class satisfied. It's both emotionally satisfying and encouraging, and it allows me to have better understanding of each topic. It's been a genuine force multiplier.
Same with music theory (0.1% of piano teachers I've met are remotely capable or willing of answering questions "why". Two of them swore that "music theory" == "learning notation". Etc.) and, though far less, Python.
The only problem I have with this is that Chat GPT is entirely happy to make answers up out of whole cloth (including fake citations, etc. if you ask for follow-up), but present them with an air of certainty. It takes carefully tracking down each and every claim, and as often as not they turn out to be somewhere between misleading and outright wrong.
Right, but the question is : what is the chance / risk / percentage?
All the examples of hallucination I see on Internet are... Either controversial or pushy or edgy.
When asked a simple question on factual well-covered, non-controversial items, success rate seems very high.
Do we have a feel for safe and unsafe areas? Are there type of questions or ways of asking them that will produce high confidence?
All the examples of hallucination I see on Internet are... Either controversial or pushy or edgy.
When asked a simple question on factual well-covered, non-controversial items, success rate seems very high.
Do we have a feel for safe and unsafe areas? Are there type of questions or ways of asking them that will produce high confidence?
Not so. I have tried asking it a wide variety of non-controversial technical questions (about history, science, laws, word etymologies, etc.) and it consistently just makes up (confident sounding and plausible-to-a-non-expert) bullshit. The biggest problem I have is that the bullshit answers are in no way obviously distinguishable from the precisely correct answers.
(Maybe we have different ideas of "well covered". I am guessing if you ask it about the content of middle- or high-school textbooks it will generally be about as reliable as a typical middle- or high-school textbook. But that's the stuff I don't need an AI research assistant to find out about; I can just look those up in a search engine or wikipedia and quickly get an acceptable answer.)
I think it would be extremely dangerous to the general factual accuracy of claims found on the internet to have this widely adopted as a general learning tool, in its current form. Sort of "citogenesis on steroids". https://xkcd.com/978/
(Maybe we have different ideas of "well covered". I am guessing if you ask it about the content of middle- or high-school textbooks it will generally be about as reliable as a typical middle- or high-school textbook. But that's the stuff I don't need an AI research assistant to find out about; I can just look those up in a search engine or wikipedia and quickly get an acceptable answer.)
I think it would be extremely dangerous to the general factual accuracy of claims found on the internet to have this widely adopted as a general learning tool, in its current form. Sort of "citogenesis on steroids". https://xkcd.com/978/
Can we both put some examples?
I ask it simple, well covered basic questions like list the types of minor chords, explain why melodic minor is different ascending and descending, what are the types of chords, explain seventh chords, etc.
Please deconstruct m'apelle and s'apelle and tell me what they're made of with examples. Explain difference between Tu, te, and toi,with examples.when do you reverse pronoun and verb in French. What are the ways you can formulate a question in French. Please list reflexive pronouns in French with examples. What is the difference between secularism and humanism.
Yes, I can find all these on google or Wikipedia - that's for me the point. I don't ask it any questions that wouldn't be solidly covered in its training set or would have controversy or judgment,or would be obscure my covered in a single scientific paper etc. But it's the seamless and fast method of obtaining meaningful and succinct answers to my specific questions that makes it completely different.
With google, if I have a question, I am now in googling mode, avoiding first three sponsored results and avoiding next six results that are SEO optimized stories of how they're learning French due to their first girlfriend's mother etc, and then sifting through pages to get a remotely applicable answer. It completely disrupts the learning. With chatgpt, it's a seamless integrated part of my learning.
I ask it simple, well covered basic questions like list the types of minor chords, explain why melodic minor is different ascending and descending, what are the types of chords, explain seventh chords, etc.
Please deconstruct m'apelle and s'apelle and tell me what they're made of with examples. Explain difference between Tu, te, and toi,with examples.when do you reverse pronoun and verb in French. What are the ways you can formulate a question in French. Please list reflexive pronouns in French with examples. What is the difference between secularism and humanism.
Yes, I can find all these on google or Wikipedia - that's for me the point. I don't ask it any questions that wouldn't be solidly covered in its training set or would have controversy or judgment,or would be obscure my covered in a single scientific paper etc. But it's the seamless and fast method of obtaining meaningful and succinct answers to my specific questions that makes it completely different.
With google, if I have a question, I am now in googling mode, avoiding first three sponsored results and avoiding next six results that are SEO optimized stories of how they're learning French due to their first girlfriend's mother etc, and then sifting through pages to get a remotely applicable answer. It completely disrupts the learning. With chatgpt, it's a seamless integrated part of my learning.
Deleting my previous example which is too verbose. Here's a good example:
>> what is laguerre geometry?
> Laguerre geometry is a branch of geometry developed by the French mathematician Edmond Laguerre in the 19th century. It is a non-Euclidean geometry that deals with the study of conic sections, curves, and surfaces in 3-dimensional space. Unlike Euclidean geometry, Laguerre geometry allows for the existence of lines and planes with complex, imaginary or dual coordinates. The Laguerre distance between two points is defined as the square root of the cross ratio of four points, and the geometry itself is often referred to as the geometry of cross-ratio invariants. The Laguerre geometry has applications in projective geometry, algebraic geometry, and physics.
The nontrivial parts of this are just wrong. Laguerre geometry is geometry where oriented lines are the basic objects rather than points, and other objects are constructed as envelopes of lines rather than loci of points. It is a kind of dual to inversive geometry (with "laguerre transformations" analogous to "möbius transformations").
>> what is laguerre geometry?
> Laguerre geometry is a branch of geometry developed by the French mathematician Edmond Laguerre in the 19th century. It is a non-Euclidean geometry that deals with the study of conic sections, curves, and surfaces in 3-dimensional space. Unlike Euclidean geometry, Laguerre geometry allows for the existence of lines and planes with complex, imaginary or dual coordinates. The Laguerre distance between two points is defined as the square root of the cross ratio of four points, and the geometry itself is often referred to as the geometry of cross-ratio invariants. The Laguerre geometry has applications in projective geometry, algebraic geometry, and physics.
The nontrivial parts of this are just wrong. Laguerre geometry is geometry where oriented lines are the basic objects rather than points, and other objects are constructed as envelopes of lines rather than loci of points. It is a kind of dual to inversive geometry (with "laguerre transformations" analogous to "möbius transformations").
Thanks - genuinely appreciate the example!
If you don't mind, since I don't know the concept myself, where would you scale it on the axis of obscurity and controversy?
My own meagre check: In terms of obscurity - there's no Wikipedia entry for it, and a quick google search does not provide a super quick and simple definition to my ignorant and superficial check. There's tons on Laguerre transform but not on "Laguerre geometry". What there is, gives definitions that are not the same as the one you provided and is not consistently worded. I am not capable of reconciling and judging are they comparable or not, and are there more than one way of defining interpreting or explaining, nor exactly how wrong the AI definition is. At the same time, search for lobochevski geometry, which the most obscure one I know in my limited mathematical awareness, is amply and consistently covered - yet, still beyond the threshold of obscurity and consistency that I would use for AI. And search for Euclid geometry, which is what I'd expect AI to define correctly, is of course plentiful (which is why I'd expect AI to succeed, a bit circular there:).
So it may be simply that our expectations and need/use of LLM AI are different? To your original point, I'm indeed using it for stuff that's basic and common and it seems to work well there. If that's all it works well for, it's bloody amazing and very useful for many - even if definitely not (yet?)useful for all people, domains, or cases.
If you don't mind, since I don't know the concept myself, where would you scale it on the axis of obscurity and controversy?
My own meagre check: In terms of obscurity - there's no Wikipedia entry for it, and a quick google search does not provide a super quick and simple definition to my ignorant and superficial check. There's tons on Laguerre transform but not on "Laguerre geometry". What there is, gives definitions that are not the same as the one you provided and is not consistently worded. I am not capable of reconciling and judging are they comparable or not, and are there more than one way of defining interpreting or explaining, nor exactly how wrong the AI definition is. At the same time, search for lobochevski geometry, which the most obscure one I know in my limited mathematical awareness, is amply and consistently covered - yet, still beyond the threshold of obscurity and consistency that I would use for AI. And search for Euclid geometry, which is what I'd expect AI to define correctly, is of course plentiful (which is why I'd expect AI to succeed, a bit circular there:).
So it may be simply that our expectations and need/use of LLM AI are different? To your original point, I'm indeed using it for stuff that's basic and common and it seems to work well there. If that's all it works well for, it's bloody amazing and very useful for many - even if definitely not (yet?)useful for all people, domains, or cases.
The reason it’s topical for me is that I have been trying to do the research to write better Wikipedia article(s) about the subject. The one currently at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laguerre_transformations doesn’t do an adequate job with the basics IMO. I gathered a long list of resources at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Laguerre_transformations#...
(As commonly happens, I am currently a bit stuck on making a bunch of diagrams...)
This is not controversial, but it is moderately obscure. (But not that obscure.)
* * *
I don’t have any particular “expectation”. I am just disappointed that the current versions of these tools do not give any indication about their level of certainty. I have asked a wide range of questions that prompted responses which were substantially bullshit. But if I hadn’t followed up might have seemed plausible enough.
Stuff like asking for translations of material written in Latin, asking about word etymologies, asking about court cases, asking for summaries of famous old books, ...
I have had a few conversations like:
“Who discovered thing A”
“It was X, who ....”
“wasn’t it Y?”
“Yes I am sorry. I was incorrect. It was Y, who ...”
“Wasn’t it actually Z?”
“Yes I am sorry. I was incorrect. It was Z, who ...”
If you try you can get it to make up nonsense about a whole string of false discoverers.
It would be better if it instead say “I have no idea about the precise answer, but people P and Q were working on similar topics around that time” or whatever.
(As commonly happens, I am currently a bit stuck on making a bunch of diagrams...)
This is not controversial, but it is moderately obscure. (But not that obscure.)
* * *
I don’t have any particular “expectation”. I am just disappointed that the current versions of these tools do not give any indication about their level of certainty. I have asked a wide range of questions that prompted responses which were substantially bullshit. But if I hadn’t followed up might have seemed plausible enough.
Stuff like asking for translations of material written in Latin, asking about word etymologies, asking about court cases, asking for summaries of famous old books, ...
I have had a few conversations like:
“Who discovered thing A”
“It was X, who ....”
“wasn’t it Y?”
“Yes I am sorry. I was incorrect. It was Y, who ...”
“Wasn’t it actually Z?”
“Yes I am sorry. I was incorrect. It was Z, who ...”
If you try you can get it to make up nonsense about a whole string of false discoverers.
It would be better if it instead say “I have no idea about the precise answer, but people P and Q were working on similar topics around that time” or whatever.
Peter Attia recently spoke about a couple sports examples. In one, he asked “what was so special about the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix?” and it reported a number of wrong facts, most importantly it named the incorrect winner of the race. On another question, he asked who was the best boxer from a list of candidates. He claimed it just recited a bunch of facts without actually answering the question.
To me, this implies that it may struggle when trying to make contextual connections. I.e. it may be better at answering “how” or “what” than “why it matters” or making value judgments
To me, this implies that it may struggle when trying to make contextual connections. I.e. it may be better at answering “how” or “what” than “why it matters” or making value judgments
Thx; I wonder (and this is just the troubleshooter in me:) would we have gotten better results if we specified the year? (or was it already done in original)
Just as an additional test for contextual understanding, I asked ChatGPT "What's controversy surrounded the White Sox?" It correctly identified the 1919 Chicago Black Sox scandal, but then it went on a complete tangent about how the Chicago White Sox logo is controversial because it is racially insensitive and promotes negative stereotypes about Native Americans.
To my knowledge, the ChiSox have never had any Native American based logo and I suspect it is conflating them with another team.
To my knowledge, the ChiSox have never had any Native American based logo and I suspect it is conflating them with another team.
Maybe, but IMO that’s part of the problem. A human can understand someone is probably asking about a particularly controversial event without having to be prompted.
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The controversial, pushy, or edgy examples likely have high visibility because they’re sensitive topics that people choose to share. The dissemination of those issues doesn’t mean more benign or unsexy shortcomings don’t also exist within the system.
> success rate seems very high
Apparently an italian journalist asked about a writer and chatgpt said it was a mafia boss.
Apparently an italian journalist asked about a writer and chatgpt said it was a mafia boss.
If I remember the number of times teachers made stuff up and/or gaslighted me, ChatGPT hardly feels like that much of a problem anymore. And often I learned about falsehoods I had been told only years later.
A teacher, real or virtual, needs to be right most of the times, and LLMs already provide that.
A teacher, real or virtual, needs to be right most of the times, and LLMs already provide that.
Access to information has not been the bottleneck in education for some time. As you noted here behavior issues are. —> fail to see how AI will help.
Well you could feed an AI system with all videos from school, grades, and all metadata of each student, and have the Ai check for any bad behaviour and try to implement best course of action based on similar past cases
It beats a broken human system that barely works at some point, the problem is we unempowered the teachers, let's empower the machines to teach then
It beats a broken human system that barely works at some point, the problem is we unempowered the teachers, let's empower the machines to teach then
I went on sabbatical last June and have since joined a small tech consultancy (and consider myself retired from teaching after about ten years at the high school level). I have all sorts of strong feelings about this transition, but it was the right choice for my family. I hope your wife is able to come to a good place with it all.
To your daydreaming:
I believe there will be a roll for AI tools in education, but they will not be replacements for in-person instruction. They will assist teachers in being better educators.
Unlike many professions where workers operate in concert with digital tools to unlock value that would be otherwise impossible to achieve, classrooms are essentially analog. The toolset I would like to build would start by mediating instruction with an assessment generation/proctoring tool that builds assessments in real time based on the lesson’s instructional content & conversational cues without significant curation required by the instructor (i.e. the system listens to the lesson as it unfolds and continuously generates/refines appropriate assessment content; the instructor should be able to complete a final curation and distribution of the assessment to students within a typical one to three minute instructional task/conversational break/etc).
Right now, we spend billions of dollars on standardized testing (with all the inherent issues of that high stakes, non-longitudinal format), and while the same content is being regularly assessed by classroom instructors, we broadly don’t accept those results as trustworthy. Such a system as I’m considering could inject that trust into classroom assessments, allow for more frequent/high quality/low effort assessments - and provide a beachhead for building additional purpose built assistive tools for instructors.
AI would likely provide utility to this tool, but the functional value cannot be separated from the fluid, branching path conversations of high quality in-person instruction.
To your daydreaming:
I believe there will be a roll for AI tools in education, but they will not be replacements for in-person instruction. They will assist teachers in being better educators.
Unlike many professions where workers operate in concert with digital tools to unlock value that would be otherwise impossible to achieve, classrooms are essentially analog. The toolset I would like to build would start by mediating instruction with an assessment generation/proctoring tool that builds assessments in real time based on the lesson’s instructional content & conversational cues without significant curation required by the instructor (i.e. the system listens to the lesson as it unfolds and continuously generates/refines appropriate assessment content; the instructor should be able to complete a final curation and distribution of the assessment to students within a typical one to three minute instructional task/conversational break/etc).
Right now, we spend billions of dollars on standardized testing (with all the inherent issues of that high stakes, non-longitudinal format), and while the same content is being regularly assessed by classroom instructors, we broadly don’t accept those results as trustworthy. Such a system as I’m considering could inject that trust into classroom assessments, allow for more frequent/high quality/low effort assessments - and provide a beachhead for building additional purpose built assistive tools for instructors.
AI would likely provide utility to this tool, but the functional value cannot be separated from the fluid, branching path conversations of high quality in-person instruction.
> is that with the recent explosion of Large Language Models and their inevitable rapid evolution, that to me it's pretty clear education needs to go down the path of AI-based, automatically customized and tuned and guided, computer based education for primary students
Do you mind expanding on why that's clear? At even a first pass by ignoring the "AI" part and focusing on the computer-based approach, it is known and has been shown that screens are detrimental to cognitive development. As in detrimental to brain development and processes, not just learning.
> We're right around the corner from AI automatically generating highly interactive learning courses for children, that will fundamentally reshape the notion of classroom-based education.
How is it going to do this any better than humans? Part of the existing problem is that teachers can teach incorrect information. (I know your wife is a teacher. My mom was a teacher.) With auto-generated learning, what will be the check that the information is correct, following guidelines, not introducing biases and -isms, and not breaking laws and regulations? And I see this approach as doubling down on treating kids as automatons rather than teaching them critical and creative thinking.
The problems with education are multifaceted. Teachers are underpaid and overly managed with managed and standardized curriculums. Families do not have the proper support structures. Thus, schools are babysitters and sources of food for many. Social media is amplifying the worst parts of humanity and eating society from the inside out. We have an extremist/terrorist party insistent on not properly finding education and social support structures and destroying human rights.
It's unfathomable to me how machine learning based, auto-generated content somehow "solves" education without addressing these problems.
I think any parent should immediately withdraw their kid from a school that adopts these "AI". We can already see failures of forced technology in schools, such as PowerPoint and Chromebooks in schools. The myopic forcing of teachers to use PowerPoint was one of the many things that made my mom retire early from teaching.
Do you mind expanding on why that's clear? At even a first pass by ignoring the "AI" part and focusing on the computer-based approach, it is known and has been shown that screens are detrimental to cognitive development. As in detrimental to brain development and processes, not just learning.
> We're right around the corner from AI automatically generating highly interactive learning courses for children, that will fundamentally reshape the notion of classroom-based education.
How is it going to do this any better than humans? Part of the existing problem is that teachers can teach incorrect information. (I know your wife is a teacher. My mom was a teacher.) With auto-generated learning, what will be the check that the information is correct, following guidelines, not introducing biases and -isms, and not breaking laws and regulations? And I see this approach as doubling down on treating kids as automatons rather than teaching them critical and creative thinking.
The problems with education are multifaceted. Teachers are underpaid and overly managed with managed and standardized curriculums. Families do not have the proper support structures. Thus, schools are babysitters and sources of food for many. Social media is amplifying the worst parts of humanity and eating society from the inside out. We have an extremist/terrorist party insistent on not properly finding education and social support structures and destroying human rights.
It's unfathomable to me how machine learning based, auto-generated content somehow "solves" education without addressing these problems.
I think any parent should immediately withdraw their kid from a school that adopts these "AI". We can already see failures of forced technology in schools, such as PowerPoint and Chromebooks in schools. The myopic forcing of teachers to use PowerPoint was one of the many things that made my mom retire early from teaching.
I believe this idea somewhat stems from American exceptionalism. Our country is so exceptional that it must require exceptional solutions.
There are many countries out there (Finland, France) that don't have this crisis in education and are not grasping for radical solutions. They are just incrementally improving the systems in place.
Why would the US need a completely different solution?
There are many countries out there (Finland, France) that don't have this crisis in education and are not grasping for radical solutions. They are just incrementally improving the systems in place.
Why would the US need a completely different solution?
> Why would the US need a completely different solution?
One reason is that the US is substantially more ethnically and culturally heterogenous than Finland or France. This means that a one-size-fits-all approach is much more likely to work over there than in the US.
One reason is that the US is substantially more ethnically and culturally heterogenous than Finland or France. This means that a one-size-fits-all approach is much more likely to work over there than in the US.
> One reason is that the US is substantially more ethnically and culturally heterogenous than Finland or France
No it isn't… but USA needs to be exceptional so you believe it is :)
No it isn't… but USA needs to be exceptional so you believe it is :)
Finland is over 99% ethnically Finnish or Swedish.
It's pretty outlandish to say that claims that America is more diverse than that are made solely in pursuit of some exceptionalism.
It's pretty outlandish to say that claims that America is more diverse than that are made solely in pursuit of some exceptionalism.
So… 2 ethnicities which speak totally different languages… ignoring the sami, the refugees, the immigrants… all of whom have their own language and culture.
Compare this with USA where there is 1 language.
Compare this with USA where there is 1 language.
Alright, how about: 87% of residents of Finland are ethnically Finnish and speak Finnish and have Finnish heritage.
Conversely, the most common USA racial group is non-Hispanic white (which groups many common languages/cultures, the most frequent of which are German/English/Polish/French). This group which is composed of all those different cultures comprises 60% of the US population.
> Compare this with USA where there is 1 language.
Nearly a quarter of American households speak a language besides English at home.
It's fine to say "there are things we can learn even though we are not as culturally homogeneous". It's fine to argue "cultural homogeneity isn't as big a deal for these things". But it's simply inconsistent with reality to claim that the USA is less ethnically and culturally diverse than Finland.
Conversely, the most common USA racial group is non-Hispanic white (which groups many common languages/cultures, the most frequent of which are German/English/Polish/French). This group which is composed of all those different cultures comprises 60% of the US population.
> Compare this with USA where there is 1 language.
Nearly a quarter of American households speak a language besides English at home.
It's fine to say "there are things we can learn even though we are not as culturally homogeneous". It's fine to argue "cultural homogeneity isn't as big a deal for these things". But it's simply inconsistent with reality to claim that the USA is less ethnically and culturally diverse than Finland.
Finland probably also has a higher average [metric related to learning]... because of the direction the US is going in.
So, basically the Young Lady's Illustrated Primer.
I agree with this article, but this approach is incomplete.
Animals, including humans, instinctively play to learn, both in free play and guided play. They work particularly well when the kid is young. I don’t find “play” to have a negative connotation (in contrast to “work”). My hobbies as an adult often start with play.
However, there is something to be said about discipline. That also has some mixed connotations, so I will be clear. I am talking about discipline to mean the various inner psychology to focus, and sharpen one’s skills even through adversity. It includes what Angela Duckworth would call “grit”. Instilling this kind of discipline is not something I’d do at an early age, because it requires a sufficient level of mindfulness.
Discipline is how one can become truly great … but it is play that allows for a kind of creativity that allows one to generalize from a solid foundation. You need both to attain mastery.
Animals, including humans, instinctively play to learn, both in free play and guided play. They work particularly well when the kid is young. I don’t find “play” to have a negative connotation (in contrast to “work”). My hobbies as an adult often start with play.
However, there is something to be said about discipline. That also has some mixed connotations, so I will be clear. I am talking about discipline to mean the various inner psychology to focus, and sharpen one’s skills even through adversity. It includes what Angela Duckworth would call “grit”. Instilling this kind of discipline is not something I’d do at an early age, because it requires a sufficient level of mindfulness.
Discipline is how one can become truly great … but it is play that allows for a kind of creativity that allows one to generalize from a solid foundation. You need both to attain mastery.
I'm in general agreement, but I'd nuance it by saying that you need to take into account the underlying enthusiasm of the person. If there's something I need to get good at for my job but I find it very boring, then that's going to take a quite a bit of discipline. However, there are some other things in my life that I've had to extert almost not discipline to learn (and, IMNSHO get very good at) because I have an innate enjoyment of the subject.
I guess what you said needs to be said. It’s not really play if you make someone do it. For my son, a lot of it is redirecting and guiding the things he is already trying to do. (For example, my toddler takes his clothes off, so my wife and I would then have him put it in the laundry basket. He thinks it is fun).
As far as discipline goes, the value is being able to generate it from within. It’s a long grind, and it is not always fun.
As far as discipline goes, the value is being able to generate it from within. It’s a long grind, and it is not always fun.
For a pithy quote, I once read discipline defined as, "Eliminating the bad to make room for the good, and eliminating the good to make room for the great."
I think the conflation with "punishment" has made it very difficult to teach self-discipline to kids and young adults.
I think the conflation with "punishment" has made it very difficult to teach self-discipline to kids and young adults.
I learned “discipline” from the martial art world. Someone had pointed out to me that “discipline” shares the root word of “disciple”, so it is not really about punishment. With that meaning in mind, you don’t discipline a child so much as initiate a child into a discipline.
Related things I learned from the martial art world are, “don’t cheat yourself”, and the idea of gongfu — mastery accumulated over time. And to bring some perspective to this, I also learned from the martial art world that “play” is crucial to develop the creative aspect of mastery. Some teachers will tell students to “play” with an idea, instead of running through a drill.
Related things I learned from the martial art world are, “don’t cheat yourself”, and the idea of gongfu — mastery accumulated over time. And to bring some perspective to this, I also learned from the martial art world that “play” is crucial to develop the creative aspect of mastery. Some teachers will tell students to “play” with an idea, instead of running through a drill.
Also... what "play" means depends on intelligence.
Different types want to "play" totally different games.
Learning by playing is the holy grail. This means that you will have fun and at the same time you develop a skill. What I have found is that play happens in different environments. For most kids now, these environments are virtual.
One of the best example of playing through learning for my kid was him learning the multiplication tables playing Roblox[1]
[1] https://www.roblox.com/games/10489578087/Multiplication-Game
One of the best example of playing through learning for my kid was him learning the multiplication tables playing Roblox[1]
[1] https://www.roblox.com/games/10489578087/Multiplication-Game
The school system’s idea of making learning a serious thing is the very thing that disrupts the main function of the supercharged learning machines that children are.
If we look at children’s play until 100 years ago it’s all learning and prep for life in different forms - forming social, motor, observation, improvisational etc skills.
The gaming industry has hijacked this for its profit loop but ultimately games are about learning new skills and excelling at them.
Force feeding anything makes it super unfun.
If we look at children’s play until 100 years ago it’s all learning and prep for life in different forms - forming social, motor, observation, improvisational etc skills.
The gaming industry has hijacked this for its profit loop but ultimately games are about learning new skills and excelling at them.
Force feeding anything makes it super unfun.
When I was in the 5th grade or so, I had a Commodore VIC-20, then a C=64. These were, respectively, the second and third machines I learned to program in BASIC.
One of my completed achievements was a sort of "typing tutor" game. I suppose I modeled it upon the game on my Casio calculator watch, and Missile Command. In my game, letters would fall from the sky, and pressing the correct key would destroy the letter and save Earth.
My father belittled it because it was a game and so, it couldn't be serious learning. Well Dad, I seriously learned some BASIC in order to get to a finished product and do a literal tape-out.
One of my completed achievements was a sort of "typing tutor" game. I suppose I modeled it upon the game on my Casio calculator watch, and Missile Command. In my game, letters would fall from the sky, and pressing the correct key would destroy the letter and save Earth.
My father belittled it because it was a game and so, it couldn't be serious learning. Well Dad, I seriously learned some BASIC in order to get to a finished product and do a literal tape-out.
Raspberry Pi entered the chat> As Plato famously said, “You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.”
Not only is this not a quote from Plato's writings, it doesn't even bear a passing resemblance to anything from Plato.
Not only is this not a quote from Plato's writings, it doesn't even bear a passing resemblance to anything from Plato.
Good post on the quote:
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/07/30/hour-play/
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/07/30/hour-play/
As a developer who struggles with attention at times, I found this article really interesting. It's cool to see that there are playful solutions being developed that can help kids with ADHD learn and develop important skills. I'm excited to see that video games like NeuroRacer and EndeavorRx are being recognized as tools for cognitive development. It's great to see that playful learning environments are being promoted as important for building skills like collaboration, critical thinking, and creativity. Overall, I think it's a positive step towards supporting people with different learning styles and differences.
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For those interested in learning more about the link between Learning and Play, Project Zero from Harvard’s Graduate School of Education recently published a free e-book, “A Pedagogy of Play: Supporting playful learning in classrooms and schools.” It’s written as a guide to help bring playful learning into more traditional classroom settings.
https://www.popatplay.org/post/launching-a-pedagogy-of-play-...
https://www.popatplay.org/post/launching-a-pedagogy-of-play-...
It seems quite strange to me that schools in California seem to have eliminated recess (breaks for unstructured play outside). The rigid Gradgrinds have sabotaged their own efforts.
Relevant Jblow video on video games and education: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWFScmtiC44
Spoiler: He thinks Zachtronics games (Spacechem, Shenzio IO, Opus Magnum etc) do this very well. The point is they're not explicitly educational games about specific topics, but they teach problem-solving skills in an engaging way.
Spoiler: He thinks Zachtronics games (Spacechem, Shenzio IO, Opus Magnum etc) do this very well. The point is they're not explicitly educational games about specific topics, but they teach problem-solving skills in an engaging way.
If you’re interested in the subject you might enjoy reading my article dealing with procrastination, laziness and play: https://sonnet.io/posts/hummingbirds/
I don’t have ADHD but (for different reasons) I struggle with similar issues. I also run (free) coaching/ranting sessions for people with similar problems.
I don’t have ADHD but (for different reasons) I struggle with similar issues. I also run (free) coaching/ranting sessions for people with similar problems.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.”
That was actually Winston Churchill, not Plato: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/07/30/hour-play/
That was actually Winston Churchill, not Plato: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/07/30/hour-play/
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Here are some webinar videos for deathclowning methodology, which is meant for playing with anything, especially the taboo.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gn-85vl-t5s
https://youtube.com/watch?v=yruvppEhBW0
https://youtube.com/watch?v=WxPfCufFNZ8
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gn-85vl-t5s
https://youtube.com/watch?v=yruvppEhBW0
https://youtube.com/watch?v=WxPfCufFNZ8
There are hands all over the Himalayans rocks. I saw many in Kham. In Tibetan tradition it's a sign of meditative accomplishment to leave ones handprint in the rocks (and melt the ice). Hard to believe, but the hands are everywhere. Even if the stone is old hard to date the handprint itself. Ice melting has been studied and proven.
> As Plato famously said, “You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.”
Is it a self-referential example of play?
Is it a self-referential example of play?
Typo. He meant "Play-dough"
It's a fake quote... look it up.
I mean, it's pretty obviously fake, even without looking up. This article is a good example of where GPT would do better I think.
My wife is an educator (public 1st grade teacher in California). We just had the discussion that next year will likely be her last year in that profession. The stress is too high, support too low, kid's behavior issues are skyrocketing, parents are getting downright violent/threatening to the staff...it's just a fuckin mess. Many of her colleagues are leaving the profession. I expect there to be a growing deficit of teachers in the coming years.
We're hoping we can get her working on education materials/maybe tutoring as a side business during her sabbatical (maybe retirement)?
I bring this up because what I've been thinking about lately, is that with the recent explosion of Large Language Models and their inevitable rapid evolution, that to me it's pretty clear education needs to go down the path of AI-based, automatically customized and tuned and guided, computer based education for primary students. We're right around the corner from AI automatically generating highly interactive learning courses for children, that will fundamentally reshape the notion of classroom-based education.
The path to adoption will probably be a mess because of the bureaucracy in education in general, but maybe that means more people will explore private/home-based education paths combined with outlets for social interaction for their kids (maybe there will be a boom in youth sports?)
Random Saturday morning daydreaming here, curious what others think.